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View Full Version : Well, whatever, "Nevermind..."



Matt700wlw
11-13-2008, 04:32 PM
Being a younger member on this board...this makes me feel a bit old...er..:D

http://www.mtv.com/photos/?fid=1598984&view=thumb

Highlifeman21
11-13-2008, 04:40 PM
That baby album cover is still disturbing, IMO

*BaseClogger*
11-13-2008, 04:59 PM
The most important rock album of the last 25 years? I think so...

Eric_the_Red
11-13-2008, 05:57 PM
Thank goodness they put some trunks on him this time. :eek:

redsfanmia
11-13-2008, 07:08 PM
The most important rock album of the last 25 years? I think so...

Hands down

westofyou
11-13-2008, 07:17 PM
The most important rock album of the last 25 years? I think so...

Blew might be better though.

*BaseClogger*
11-13-2008, 07:20 PM
Blew might be better though.

Are you talking about Bleach? I like that album a lot, but it's not Nevermind...

westofyou
11-13-2008, 07:35 PM
Are you talking about Bleach? I like that album a lot, but it's not Nevermind...

Yes, duh.. Bleach. $600 of fuzz, not as produced as nevermind, not as popular, but while Nevermind introduced Nirvana to the world Bleach pushed Sub Pop over the top and that was a good thing.

*BaseClogger*
11-13-2008, 07:42 PM
Yes, duh.. Bleach. $600 of fuzz, not as produced as nevermind, not as popular, but while Nevermind introduced Nirvana to the world Bleach pushed Sub Pop over the top and that was a good thing.

Then why didn't you just call it by its name?

I agree Bleach has a better sound, and it' less forced "grunge" which I like, but the iconic singles on Nevermind make it better IMHO...

westofyou
11-13-2008, 07:50 PM
Then why didn't you just call it by its name?

Honest mistake, It's hard to remember the name of every bands albums when you've been around awhile.

*BaseClogger*
11-13-2008, 07:53 PM
Honest mistake, It's hard to remember the name of every bands albums when you've been around awhile.

I understand woy, you've got a lot of information up there! :) I was just wondering why the "duh" was necessary. Thanks for the clarification...

bucksfan
11-13-2008, 10:24 PM
I understand woy, you've got a lot of information up there! :) I was just wondering why the "duh" was necessary. Thanks for the clarification...

I'm guessing woy was "duh-ing" himself... That's how I phrase it after I know I erred on something easy.

macro
11-13-2008, 11:33 PM
The most important rock album of the last 25 years? I think so...

As much as I disliked Nirvana and the whole Seattle thing, I can't argue.

My dislike was because I was a child of 70s and 80s rock, and the new sound was a shock to my system. For the first time in my life, at age 25, I felt outdated and uncool. "Smells Like Teen Spirit" just sounded like a bunch of jumbled noise to me.

I now appreciate the band and the album and it's place in music history, but it doesn't bring back great memories.

redsmetz
11-14-2008, 07:28 AM
As much as I disliked Nirvana and the whole Seattle thing, I can't argue.

My dislike was because I was a child of 70s and 80s rock, and the new sound was a shock to my system. For the first time in my life, at age 25, I felt outdated and uncool. "Smells Like Teen Spirit" just sounded like a bunch of jumbled noise to me.

I now appreciate the band and the album and it's place in music history, but it doesn't bring back great memories.

Try this version on for size - I heard about Anka's album on NPR (maybe Fresh Air) and it was intriguing to hear a big band take on the song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM_xvTaYavw

The Operator
11-14-2008, 08:10 AM
Another thing that made Nevermind as great as it was, is the fact that they added Dave Grohl as their drummer shortly before going to Sound City to record it.

If you're very into Nirvana, you know that Chad Channing (and The Melvins' Dale Crover for 3 songs) was the drummer on Bleach, and while decent, Chad definitely was not at the same level as a Dave Grohl.

I honestly can't picture the songs on Nevermind sounding as good if they had Chad Channing drumming on them. If any of you have ever heard Nirvana's "Smart Demos", you'll probably agree. These were the original Nevermind sessions, before they canned Chad in favor of Dave. Songs like "In Bloom" and "Lithium" just were not the same without Dave's firepower.

Oh, and I also think In Utero is an incredibly underrated album, in addition to Bleach. But following up Nevermind was of course a tough task.

macro
11-14-2008, 09:21 AM
Try this version on for size - I heard about Anka's album on NPR (maybe Fresh Air) and it was intriguing to hear a big band take on the song:


Well, now, that was different. I had never listened to Anka or any big band for that matter, but it was really interesting to hear that song (and some others at youtube) that he had redone. I ended up going over there and listening to a couple more. I've always believed that a great song is a great song, regardless of the genre, and this is evidence IMO.

One great musical masterpiece was the title track from from Metallica's And Justice For All CD. I always wanted to hear a huge orchestra perform that song.

M2
11-14-2008, 10:13 AM
As much as I disliked Nirvana and the whole Seattle thing, I can't argue.

My dislike was because I was a child of 70s and 80s rock, and the new sound was a shock to my system. For the first time in my life, at age 25, I felt outdated and uncool. "Smells Like Teen Spirit" just sounded like a bunch of jumbled noise to me.

I now appreciate the band and the album and it's place in music history, but it doesn't bring back great memories.

I'm the same age, but I had the opposite reaction. I was beyond tired of Boomer rock and I was aching for our generation to bust out with something different.

bucksfan2
11-14-2008, 10:35 AM
You could make the argument that Nevermind was the most influential rock album ever produced. It took the Seattle grunge movement mainstream which lead to all the different varieties of music we hear today. Smells Like Teen Spirit also became the anthem for people in my generation and paved the way for the music video.

Was this also around the time CD's became very popular?

Johnny Footstool
11-14-2008, 10:43 AM
I agree Bleach has a better sound, and it' less forced "grunge" which I like, but the iconic singles on Nevermind make it better IMHO...

My favorites were the non-singles -- "Drain You," "On a Plain," "Something in the Way," and of course "Polly." (I had just started dating a girl named Polly when the album came out. I ended up marrying her.)

westofyou
11-14-2008, 10:47 AM
You could make the argument that Nevermind was the most influential rock album ever produced. It took the Seattle grunge movement mainstream which lead to all the different varieties of music we hear today. Smells Like Teen Spirit also became the anthem for people in my generation and paved the way for the music video.

Was this also around the time CD's became very popular?

Sgt Peppers makes Nevermind look like smalltime IMO, Nevermind is great but it's more about a marketing explosion then a realization to the music industry, and all those avenues of music where already there when Nevermind came out, they just weren't being sold in the malls.

Doolittle, Straight out of Compton, Ritual de lo Habitual and Pretty Hate Machine were all out and blaring before they threw that kid into the pool for that photo shoot. There was tons of great music out there before and after... but hey just one mans opinion.

M2
11-14-2008, 11:03 AM
You could make the argument that Nevermind was the most influential rock album ever produced. It took the Seattle grunge movement mainstream which lead to all the different varieties of music we hear today. Smells Like Teen Spirit also became the anthem for people in my generation and paved the way for the music video.

Was this also around the time CD's became very popular?

CDs were already mainstream by that time. Had been for about 5 years.

And the music video popped in the early '80s.

But Nirvana, more than any other band, provided a generational call to arms. Nevermind was Gen X's calling card. It was a behind-the-scenes generation until that point. After that, music, movies and pop culture began to change rapidly. I'd argue that Gen X feeling that it had arrived in some measure helped swing the 1992 Presidential election. A lot of young people who might have sat on the sidelines instead got out and voted. The workplace even got altered (notably many companies became a lot less buttoned up).

redsfandan
11-14-2008, 11:08 AM
You could make the argument that Nevermind was the most influential rock album ever produced. It took the Seattle grunge movement mainstream which lead to all the different varieties of music we hear today. Smells Like Teen Spirit also became the anthem for people in my generation and paved the way for the music video.

Was this also around the time CD's became very popular?

as much as i like nirvana and nevermind i think that's going just a little overboard.

cd's had already become the then next stop in the evolution of music packaging.

edit: i want to guess that you don't mean it paved the way for music videos in general. that wouldn't make much sense to me.

M2
11-14-2008, 12:06 PM
Sgt Peppers makes Nevermind look like smalltime IMO, Nevermind is great but it's more about a marketing explosion then a realization to the music industry, and all those avenues of music where already there when Nevermind came out, they just weren't being sold in the malls.

Doolittle, Straight out of Compton, Ritual de lo Habitual and Pretty Hate Machine were all out and blaring before they threw that kid into the pool for that photo shoot. There was tons of great music out there before and after... but hey just one mans opinion.

The Beatles were huge before Sgt. Peppers. On either side of Sgt. Peppers, they had vastly superior records (Revolver and the White Album). The British Invasion was three years old and going strong by the time Sgt. Peppers rolled around. Psychedlia came and went in a flash during that period with very little lasting effect on music in general.

Sgt. Peppers main achievements have to do with inside baseball - how records get recorded, AOR, pretty packaging being as important as the sound.

It definitely changed the business, but the world was already in rapid flux. Boomers were already ascendant and grabbing the horns of American culture. So they wore Nehru jackets for a year. Big deal. The post World War II society was being seized by the first post World War II generation and Sgt. Peppers, IMO, pales in comparison to Meet the Beatles when viewed through that lens.

As for the Pixies, Jane's Addiction and NIN, yes they were big in the underground (which had grown fairly large by that time, well beyond its hardcore roots), but it was a separate society. Most of my friends and I were plugged into it, but you could be right next to it and completely miss it. My college roommate, despite the fact that he lived in a major metropolitan area and everyone he knew was deep into the local club scene, was completely oblivious to it. Once you got beyond the minority that knew those bands extremely well, it was fodder for blank stares.

And insiders were always taken by surprise by who made it. I can tell you that folks in Boston were befuddled that the Pixies were the band to break through from that area. Throwing Muses were supposed to be the last, best hope of the Boston indie scene after so many had fallen by the wayside.

From what I gather, Mother Love Bone was supposed to be Seattle's breakthrough act, but then Andrew Wood ODed. A month before Nevermind hit, Pearl Jam released Ten and no one was paying any attention.

On the national front, the Chili Peppers had scored success with Mother's Milk and probably the biggest indie album to that point had been Faith No More with "The Real Thing," which featured a top 10 hit with "Epic."

But Nevermind topped the charts around the globe. Suddenly Pearl Jam had an audience for Ten, the Chili Peppers went from underground darlings to mainstream with Blood Sugar Sex Magik (released on the same day as Nevermind). I know a lot of people who became Pixies and Jane's fans after those bands had broken up, picking up back CDs after the fact from Columbia Record Club.

Everything changed after Nevermind. Like Eric Bachmann said, the underground got overcrowded. There was no more subbacultcha.

I count rap as a parallel movement, which absolutely broke mainstream prior to indie.

westofyou
11-14-2008, 12:26 PM
My college roommate, despite the fact that he lived in a major metropolitan area and everyone he knew was deep into the local club scene, was completely oblivious to it.

Dave... it has to be Dave.


The Beatles were huge before Sgt. Peppers.

Bigger than Jesus IIRC....


It definitely changed the business, but the world was already in rapid flux. Boomers were already ascendant and grabbing the horns of American culture. So they wore Nehru jackets for a year. Big deal. The post World War II society was being seized by the first post World War II generation and Sgt. Peppers, IMO, pales in comparison to Meet the Beatles when viewed through that lens.

Revolver was more groundbreaking sound wise, Sgt Peppers kicked the paisley generation into high gear and made it a magazine ad for the movement, as Nevermind did for grunge and the unbuttoned down look.

The debate of what the greatest album is could be beaten into the ground... what I never get is how Trout Mask Replica always ends up in the argument when the music snob part of fandom gets involved

M2
11-14-2008, 12:36 PM
Dave... it has to be Dave.

You are correct sir. I thought he was an anomaly until I moved to Virginia and discovered he was mainstream.

Fair point about Sgt. Peppers and its marketing impact, but the marketing world was already Boomer-centric by the time 1967 rolled around. It was just the latest twist.

My take is/was that prior to Nevermind, Gen X was an afterthought (assumed to be mostly a mini version of the Boomers). The Boomers arrived like a decade-long Normandy invasion, wave after wave they kept steaming onto the shores. Gen X, IMO, arrived with atomic blast called Nevermind. While you can see the antecedents to the blast itself through the filter of history, the post-Nevermind world was starkly different and it wasn't just pop culture.

The Boomers got a litany of big events and signifiers which proclaimed their ascendance. Billy Joel even made a really awful song in which he listed them. If he were to do the same thing for Gen X, it would sound like something out of Edgar Allan Poe, with "nevermind" finishing each stanza.

Muppets, Fonzie, Scooby Doo, MTV, Run DMC, Mary Lou Retton, Mike Tyson, nevermind
Columbia disaster, Berlin Wall, dot-com boom, Monica Lewinsky, who won Florida, 9-11, nevermind

And I believe that's the entirety of it.

Falls City Beer
11-14-2008, 02:09 PM
Nevermind kind of sucked, IMO. Horrible production, unrealized potential all over the place.

But man, In Utero was a revelation.

Falls City Beer
11-14-2008, 02:11 PM
Dave... it has to be Dave.



Bigger than Jesus IIRC....



Revolver was more groundbreaking sound wise, Sgt Peppers kicked the paisley generation into high gear and made it a magazine ad for the movement, as Nevermind did for grunge and the unbuttoned down look.

The debate of what the greatest album is could be beaten into the ground... what I never get is how Trout Mask Replica always ends up in the argument when the music snob part of fandom gets involved

Never loved Trout Mask, but Doc at the Radar Station is outstanding.

M2
11-14-2008, 02:36 PM
Nevermind kind of sucked, IMO. Horrible production, unrealized potential all over the place.

But man, In Utero was a revelation.

In Utero bores me to tears. Take Rape Me, Frances Farmer and RFUS off that record and it's a pretty empty vessel.

I also have developed a problem with Steve Albini-produced records. I'm a big Albini fan (love Big Black, love Shellac, think he does a superior job of song construction), but he'll always be an analog loyalist at heart and the records he produced in the '90s fade into the subsonic range as the discs age. I can barely hear Surfer Rosa, Dial M, Pod or Rid of Me these days. Say what you will about Butch Vig's goes-to-11 production on Nevermind, but I'm not struggling to hear it.

Right as Albini may be about the superior fidelity of analog and of live recording, he tried to shoehorn analog techniques onto digital recording back in the day and those records need remastering. Inaudible vocals also peeve me.

Falls City Beer
11-14-2008, 02:48 PM
In Utero bores me to tears. Take Rape Me, Frances Farmer and RFUS off that record and it's a pretty empty vessel.

I don't dislike a single track on it; it's one of the mightiest sounding recordings I've ever heard. I actually can't listen to it that often; it just wrings me out.

M2
11-14-2008, 03:14 PM
I don't dislike a single track on it; it's one of the mightiest sounding recordings I've ever heard. I actually can't listen to it that often; it just wrings me out.

Really? I usually share your musical sensibilities, but I find that album to be a plodding snorefest. Aside from everything else, the lyrics revolve around Cobain having become an increasingly uninteresting rock star. I could care less. I can plug into the disaffected confusion of Nevermind, that notion that the world off kilter, making abnormalcy the norm. I've got no such connection to the papparazi not understanding my wife, the music industry trying to chew me up or how rock critics don't get me.

Is self-obsession an emotion? If not, I fail to see what emotional content there is in that album.

kpresidente
11-14-2008, 04:20 PM
As much as I disliked Nirvana and the whole Seattle thing, I can't argue.

My dislike was because I was a child of 70s and 80s rock, and the new sound was a shock to my system. For the first time in my life, at age 25, I felt outdated and uncool. "Smells Like Teen Spirit" just sounded like a bunch of jumbled noise to me.

I now appreciate the band and the album and it's place in music history, but it doesn't bring back great memories.

Me too and I was a teenager at the time. My favorite albums as a teen were Live's Throwing Copper, Tool's Undertow and STP's Purple. I like a little melody in my music and a little meaning in my lyrics.

Of course, that was then. When I go back now and listen, I think I like Nirvana better (hard to tell, though, since I've heard every song a million times at this point). Odd how that works.

M2
11-14-2008, 04:39 PM
Me too and I was a teenager at the time. My favorite albums as a teen were Live's Throwing Copper, Tool's Undertow and STP's Purple. I like a little melody in my music and a little meaning in my lyrics.

Of course, that was then. When I go back now and listen, I think I like Nirvana better (hard to tell, though, since I've heard every song a million times at this point). Odd how that works.

One of the common knocks on Nevermind is that it's melody-heavy. That's where the Cheap Trick comparison comes in.

kpresidente
11-14-2008, 04:51 PM
One of the common knocks on Nevermind is that it's melody-heavy. That's where the Cheap Trick comparison comes in.

Yeah, so I've heard.

camisadelgolf
11-15-2008, 03:04 AM
Put me in the camp that believes In Utero is better than Nevermind. Nevermind is a good album, but like FCB already said, the production was bad, and they left behind a lot of untapped potential.

As for In Utero, I don't think it's one of the best albums of all-time or anything, but it's certainly very good, and the production was superior to anything else around that time. In Utero was much less melodic, and therefore, less appreciated by the public, but if Nirvana had more time to make a couple more albums, they could've changed the rock industry so much more than they did.

The Operator
11-17-2008, 07:51 AM
but if Nirvana had more time to make a couple more albums, they could've changed the rock industry so much more than they did. I doubt Nirvana would have lasted a couple more albums, even if Kurt hadn't died.

Their was much turmoil in the band by 1994, due mostly to Courtney Love being around and Kurt's drug use and odd behavior. At the session where they recorded the song "You Know You're Right", which was their last formal session, Kurt showed up 2 days late. Dave Grohl had already begun working rough versions of eventual Foo Fighters songs during his time in Nirvana.

There was also talk of Kurt wanting to leave the band for either solo work, or a possible collaberation with Michael Stipe. And this is getting far out there, but among those Nirvana fans who believe Kurt was murdered, instead of having committed suicide, they believe the suicide note was actually a letter to fans about Kurt either quitting the band or quitting the music industry altogether. I don't really know about all that, but it's an interesting theory.

What stinks is that we can never know how it would have played out.

redsfanmia
11-17-2008, 07:57 AM
I doubt Nirvana would have lasted a couple more albums, even if Kurt hadn't died.

Their was much turmoil in the band by 1994, due mostly to Courtney Love being around and Kurt's drug use and odd behavior. At the session where they recorded the song "You Know You're Right", which was their last formal session, Kurt showed up 2 days late. Dave Grohl had already begun working rough versions of eventual Foo Fighters songs during his time in Nirvana.

There was also talk of Kurt wanting to leave the band for either solo work, or a possible collaberation with Michael Stipe. And this is getting far out there, but among those Nirvana fans who believe Kurt was murdered, instead of having committed suicide, they believe the suicide note was actually a letter to fans about Kurt either quitting the band or quitting the music industry altogether. I don't really know about all that, but it's an interesting theory.

What stinks is that we can never know how it would have played out.

I have always wondered how much his drug overdose and coma affected mental abilities and if that contributed to his suicide/murder?

bucksfan2
11-17-2008, 08:33 AM
CDs were already mainstream by that time. Had been for about 5 years.

And the music video popped in the early '80s.

But Nirvana, more than any other band, provided a generational call to arms. Nevermind was Gen X's calling card. It was a behind-the-scenes generation until that point. After that, music, movies and pop culture began to change rapidly. I'd argue that Gen X feeling that it had arrived in some measure helped swing the 1992 Presidential election. A lot of young people who might have sat on the sidelines instead got out and voted. The workplace even got altered (notably many companies became a lot less buttoned up).

CD's were out but tapes were also around. IIRC tapes still had a strong influence on the music world but soon went the way of the dinosaur. There was still a large part of the population that hadn't bought into CD's yet. Something similar to DVD and VHS. 5 years after DVD's were released VHS tapes were still in every store and still were being sold.

Music video's were around but that doesn't mean they were popular. Smells Like Teen Spirt was one of the video's that changed the music video. Right around this time MTV was huge in showing music video's. IMO Smells Like Teen Spirit got Gen X into watching MTV and the music video. It became the song for anyone in Jr High, High School, and maybe College but I was too young to know.

IMO this album became the calling card of an entire generation. It more than anything changed the type of music I have listened to. To be honest I haven't listened to a Nirvana song or album in years but I still consider that to be one of my favorite albums.

Kurt Cobain was such an influential musician that he was voted artist of the decade by Rolling Stone but didn't even live for half of the 90's. While you can say that his downward spiral may have prohibited him from creating anything great he had a way to get it done. He just had a way of producing music for the masses. Nirvana's MTV Live CD was another great success.

westofyou
11-17-2008, 10:03 AM
IMO Smells Like Teen Spirit got Gen X into watching MTV and the music videoUmmm by the time Nevermind came out MTV was firmly entrenched in every music lovers home, and the 80's were way better for the music video than the 90's could ever hope to have been.

M2
11-17-2008, 10:30 AM
Music video's were around but that doesn't mean they were popular. Smells Like Teen Spirt was one of the video's that changed the music video. Right around this time MTV was huge in showing music video's. IMO Smells Like Teen Spirit got Gen X into watching MTV and the music video. It became the song for anyone in Jr High, High School, and maybe College but I was too young to know.

You should have just started with the last sentiment and stuck to it.

Music videos were massive in the '80s and waned in the '90s. Gen X had been glued to MTV for a decade prior to "Smells Like Teen Spirit."

macro
11-17-2008, 01:51 PM
Yep, and in fact, the demise of MTV began in 1992 with the debut of The Real World.

KronoRed
11-17-2008, 03:03 PM
I doubt Nirvana would have lasted a couple more albums, even if Kurt hadn't died.


I'd agree with this, half of In Utero was songs that had been kicking around since 1990, some of which got dumped from Nevermind, from the outside it seems the band was creatively tapped out already.

M2
11-17-2008, 04:22 PM
I'd agree with this, half of In Utero was songs that had been kicking around since 1990, some of which got dumped from Nevermind, from the outside it seems the band was creatively tapped out already.

Cobain certainly seemed to hit the wall on In Utero. As I mentioned before, he was so far up his own backside (lyrically speaking) that it left him with nothing to say. No one cares about a poor, little rock star.

The triumph of Nevermind was that it found a certain joy in confusion and alienation. It seemed consciously aware of the idea that if we're all confused and alienated, then at least we've got something in common ... and here's a few catchy tunes about that. You could sing along to Nevermind, pump your fist to it, bounce around in a pit of strangers to it, turn it up loud on your car stereo on a warm summer's night and feel good to it. The record didn't feel sorry for itself, didn't ask you to feel bad about anything (even if it regularly acknowledged that we don't live in a smiley-faced world). It had a celebratory vibe, an infectious, unspoken positivism that cleaved through the grunge.

"Smells Like Teen Spirit" had what Alice Cooper's "Eighteen" had. "Come As You Are" had what Tom Petty's "Breakdown" had. All those songs sent something soaring above the madness.

Maybe it was too much to ask for Cobain to touch that nerve again. He very well might have touched it by accident. He certainly seemed unable to reconcile the accessibility of Nevermind (a stellar artistic accomplishment) with the dour facade he associated with being a serious artist.

wheels
11-17-2008, 04:32 PM
CDs were already mainstream by that time. Had been for about 5 years.

And the music video popped in the early '80s.

But Nirvana, more than any other band, provided a generational call to arms. Nevermind was Gen X's calling card. It was a behind-the-scenes generation until that point. After that, music, movies and pop culture began to change rapidly. I'd argue that Gen X feeling that it had arrived in some measure helped swing the 1992 Presidential election. A lot of young people who might have sat on the sidelines instead got out and voted. The workplace even got altered (notably many companies became a lot less buttoned up).

I guess that's all true, but I was mostly annoyed because rock shows began to be populated by flannel wearing poseurs, and then Green Day happened and I almost felt like dropping out of society altogether.

It stinks when stuff gets co-opted.

westofyou
11-17-2008, 04:39 PM
I guess that's all true, but I was mostly annoyed because rock shows began to be populated by flannel wearing poseurs, and then Green Day happened and I almost felt like dropping out of society altogether.

It stinks when stuff gets co-opted.

Green Day was big in the underground scene in Berkeley, because of them (and prior to the word Dookie being uttered) they put power pop on the map in NoCal, at Lollapalooza in the Bay Area a group of folks unfurled a banner during their set that read "Corporate Sellouts" they proceeded to boo them relentlessly throughout the whole set.

wheels
11-17-2008, 04:49 PM
Green Day was big in the underground scene in Berkeley, because of them (and prior to the word Dookie being uttered) they put power pop on the map in NoCal, at Lollapalooza in the Bay Area a group of folks unfurled a banner during their set that read "Corporate Sellouts" they proceeded to boo them relentlessly throughout the whole set.

Yeah. I was a regular reader of Maximum Rock N' Roll in those days (still am, but not as much).

I actually saw Green Day at Stache's when I was 17 (I didn't have a fake ID, but it wasn't 100% correct). Sat next to B.J. at the bar, but I didn't really like him. They played an o.k. set. Never was blown away by 'em, but they were better than The Offspring, I guess. Now, they're wearing suedo paramilitary costumes and singing love songs and stuff. Blech.

The mid to early nineties were both a really cool time (the 7" singles revolution, Crypt Records, Sympathy for the Record Industry, etc.), and a really annoying time (The movie "Singles", Courtney Love, The Birth of Mall Punk, etc.).

I never really hated Nirvana, though. They seemed like okay fellas.

My ex roomate is in the process of writing a book about the 1990's rock n' roll scene. I'll keep you updated as to when it comes out. You will find it very interesting.

M2
11-17-2008, 04:57 PM
I guess that's all true, but I was mostly annoyed because rock shows began to be populated by flannel wearing poseurs, and then Green Day happened and I almost felt like dropping out of society altogether.

It stinks when stuff gets co-opted.

True enough. Felt the same way myself, but the alternative was a wet generational fuse that never got lit.

And isn't it better that the poseurs moved in that direction than some others? IMO, we drink better beer because of it now. Metropolitan living bounced back because of it. I like to think it created demand for authenticity amongst those who otherwise would have lapsed into a repeat of the previous generation.

I don't care how early or late you came to it, you're better off for having been in a pit. I like the notion that lurking somewhere in the most buttoned-up business drones of our generation is someone who once felt the urge to bounce off of strangers to the harmonious strains of "Stay Away."

wheels
11-17-2008, 05:01 PM
True enough. Felt the same way myself, but the alternative was a wet generational fuse that never got lit.

And isn't it better that the poseurs moved in that direction than some others? IMO, we drink better beer because of it now. Metropolitan living bounced back because of it. I like to think it created demand for authenticity amongst those who otherwise would have lapsed into a repeat of the previous generation.

I don't care how early or late you came to it, you're better off for having been in a pit. I like the notion that lurking somewhere in the most buttoned-up business drones of our generation is someone who once felt the urge to bounce off of strangers to the harmonious strains of "Stay Away."

Well friggin said.

I didn't mean to come off as an elitist, but when I was younger I was much more easily annoyed than I am now. I think I took too much pride in already having the records that everyone else was just discovering. I didn't take the time to realize how cool it was that people were noticing things that I held near and dear. Taking a liking to them, even. That WAS pretty dad gum cool.

I got that Lasseiz Faire stare thing going nowadays, although some of my close friends would beg to differ.

M2
11-17-2008, 05:19 PM
Yeah. I was a regular reader of Maximum Rock N' Roll in those days (still am, but not as much).

I actually saw Green Day at Stache's when I was 17 (I didn't have a fake ID, but it wasn't 100% correct). Sat next to B.J. at the bar, but I didn't really like him. They played an o.k. set. Never was blown away by 'em, but they were better than The Offspring, I guess. Now, they're wearing suedo paramilitary costumes and singing love songs and stuff. Blech.

The mid to early nineties were both a really cool time (the 7" singles revolution, Crypt Records, Sympathy for the Record Industry, etc.), and a really annoying time (The movie "Singles", Courtney Love, The Birth of Mall Punk, etc.).

I never really hated Nirvana, though. They seemed like okay fellas.

My ex roomate is in the process of writing a book about the 1990's rock n' roll scene. I'll keep you updated as to when it comes out. You will find it very interesting.

I was at the Woodstock show and the Boston Esplanade show that turned into a near riot.

I always got the sense, even during those two shows, that Billy Joe was making the plea that "Hey now folks, we're not that band." And they've pretty spent their time since then proving it.

Weirdest thing about the '90s scene, to me, is the lengths to which it tried to erase history. No one got hit harder than the Ramones. The world swung in their direction, but refused to acknowledge them. Some older acts (Social Distortion and the Descendents) finally tasted success or got a mini comeback, but I always thought it was odd that a lot of punk, hardcore and college radio forefathers didn't get much of a ride, if any, on that gravy train.

wheels
11-17-2008, 05:33 PM
I was at the Woodstock show and the Boston Esplanade show that turned into a near riot.

I always got the sense, even during those two shows, that Billy Joe was making the plea that "Hey now folks, we're not that band." And they've pretty spent their time since then proving it.

Weirdest thing about the '90s scene, to me, is the lengths to which it tried to erase history. No one got hit harder than the Ramones. The world swung in their direction, but refused to acknowledge them. Some older acts (Social Distortion and the Descendents) finally tasted success or got a mini comeback, but I always thought it was odd that a lot of punk, hardcore and college radio forefathers didn't get much of a ride, if any, on that gravy train.

Even though they were the forefathers, they still weren't seen as "marketable" by the machine.

It was okay to use their songs for car commercials (I still remember where I was when I heard "What do I Get?" on a Honda commercial), as long as their faces weren't shown.

When the New Bomb Turks were being wooed by Capital (I think it was), their main sticking points were "You guys are a little too overweight", and "Your name doesn't make sense". They ended up on Epitaph, made three records, two videos, and had a song on some skateboarding video game.

Point is (I guess) is that those guys didn't really know what to do with Punk Rock. They knew people wanted it, but they really didn't know why. Their solution was to re create it, make it all about the Vans Warped Tour and tatoos. They took all of the peripheral garbage and made it the main focus. Made it something boring and consumerist, a different uniform, if you will.

The Ramones never went for that. They had a cooler uniform and cared about cooler stuff.

I really wish we lived in a Ramones kinda world. I don't like this one at all by comparison.

Johnny Footstool
11-17-2008, 05:45 PM
[From what I gather, Mother Love Bone was supposed to be Seattle's breakthrough act, but then Andrew Wood ODed. A month before Nevermind hit, Pearl Jam released Ten and no one was paying any attention.

Soundgarden was Seattle's big breakthrough act. Mother Love Bone probably would have been the Next Big Thing our of that town, but they wouldn't have broken as big as Nirvana. Their sound just wasn't that unique.

M2
11-17-2008, 05:50 PM
Even though they were the forefathers, they still weren't seen as "marketable" by the machine.

It was okay to use their songs for car commercials (I still remember where I was when I heard "What do I Get?" on a Honda commercial), as long as their faces weren't shown.

When the New Bomb Turks were being wooed by Capital (I think it was), their main sticking points were "You guys are a little too overweight", and "Your name doesn't make sense". They ended up on Epitaph, made three records, two videos, and had a song on some skateboarding video game.

Point is (I guess) is that those guys didn't really know what to do with Punk Rock. They knew people wanted it, but they really didn't know why. Their solution was to re create it, make it all about the Vans Warped Tour and tatoos. They took all of the peripheral garbage and made it the main focus. Made it something boring and consumerist, a different uniform, if you will.

The Ramones never went for that. They had a cooler uniform and cared about cooler stuff.

I really wish we lived in a Ramones kinda world. I don't like this one at all by comparison.

Excellent points.

And how in the hell couldn't they have known "Hollywood Knights"? That's a firing offense if you ask me.

M2
11-17-2008, 05:56 PM
Soundgarden was Seattle's big breakthrough act. Mother Love Bone probably would have been the Next Big Thing our of that town, but they wouldn't have broken as big as Nirvana.

Louder Than Love never really took off. It was Badmotorfinger that really put Soundgarden on the map and that was a post-Nevermind release (actually came out two weeks later, kind of sick what got released in late 1991).

If only the kids had glommed onto "Big Dumb Sex" and sung it on their school buses.

bucksfan
11-17-2008, 06:03 PM
Soundgarden was Seattle's big breakthrough act. Mother Love Bone probably would have been the Next Big Thing our of that town, but they wouldn't have broken as big as Nirvana. Their sound just wasn't that unique.

This is a fun reminiscing thread for me. I was pretty much a 80's metalhead at the time, with nods in several other diverse directions as well. Then Nevermind hit and I loved it and dug into more of "that sound" or what was being labeled that way anyhow....

MLB's "Apple" is still one of my favorite CDs. And I completely dug the early Soundgarden.

wheels
11-17-2008, 07:44 PM
This is a fun reminiscing thread for me. I was pretty much a 80's metalhead at the time, with nods in several other diverse directions as well. Then Nevermind hit and I loved it and dug into more of "that sound" or what was being labeled that way anyhow....

MLB's "Apple" is still one of my favorite CDs. And I completely dug the early Soundgarden.


"Full On Kevin's Mom" was hilarious.

wheels
11-17-2008, 07:46 PM
Excellent points.

And how in the hell couldn't they have known "Hollywood Knights"? That's a firing offense if you ask me.

Yeah. It's not like the Turks didn't have a choice, either. They were being wooed by some of the big boys, but chose Epitaph because they kinda understood what they were all about, pretty much let them make the records they wanted to make.

They still didn't know what to do with them, though. It's really sad.

Johnny Footstool
11-17-2008, 08:23 PM
Louder Than Love never really took off. It was Badmotorfinger that really put Soundgarden on the map and that was a post-Nevermind release (actually came out two weeks later, kind of sick what got released in late 1991).

If only the kids had glommed onto "Big Dumb Sex" and sung it on their school buses.

Soundgarden and Alice in Chains spent '89 and '90 earning the respect of metal fans and carving out an audience for Nevermind. They were a proof-of-concept for the Seattle sound.

M2
11-17-2008, 09:37 PM
Soundgarden and Alice in Chains spent '89 and '90 earning the respect of metal fans and carving out an audience for Nevermind. They were a proof-of-concept for the Seattle sound.

They certainly provided a bridge for metal fans (hey, here's something heavy that doesn't require hair spray), but that was only part of the Nirvana coalition.

I actually think what separated Nirvana from the other Seattle bands is that they were as much punk and pop as they were metal/hard rock.

On a side note, how great would a Nirvana cover of "Cherry Pie" have been?

Betterread
11-17-2008, 10:36 PM
They certainly provided a bridge for metal fans (hey, here's something heavy that doesn't require hair spray), but that was only part of the Nirvana coalition.

I actually think what separated Nirvana from the other Seattle bands is that they were as much punk and pop as they were metal/hard rock.


I think what separated Nirvana were the number of good songs they wrote. Nirvana and In Utero are full of them. Nirvana's the better collection to me because it doesn't mock the quality of the songs with choruses like "rape me" and "i think i'm dumb". Thats what separates the Ramones and the Clash from other punk bands. Its what separates Pavement from other low-fi bands. A good tune stands the test of time, no matter what the style of music or the singing or the recording quality.

Hoosier Red
11-18-2008, 10:12 AM
I have to say, reading the responses on this thread. I only wish I cared about music as much as you guys do.

I've always had a kind of ambivelant attitude toward music, there's nothing that I'd immediately turn off, but there's nothing that really "speaks to me" either. I used to like to think I had an eclectic taste in music, But the more I move away from the last CD purchased(probably 8 years now), the more I realize I just don't care enough about any music either way.

wheels
11-18-2008, 02:58 PM
I have to say, reading the responses on this thread. I only wish I cared about music as much as you guys do.

I've always had a kind of ambivelant attitude toward music, there's nothing that I'd immediately turn off, but there's nothing that really "speaks to me" either. I used to like to think I had an eclectic taste in music, But the more I move away from the last CD purchased(probably 8 years now), the more I realize I just don't care enough about any music either way.

Yeah, but you like Baseball, so you're still cool.

HBP
11-18-2008, 08:37 PM
Insightful thread everyone. I didn't "discover" Nirvana until around 2000 or so, mainly because I was seven in 1991. Of course I had heard the singles before then but missed the era. Then I was dumbfounded when I realized the connection of Dave Grohl and Foo Fighters. Those two bands are one of the reasons I've spent way too much money on guitars and equipment in the room right now.