PDA

View Full Version : Charlie Weiss alienates alumni and recruits



WMR
11-15-2008, 01:51 PM
The guy who once boasted he "could get hoodlums and thugs and win tomorrow" strolled into Jeannette High School in the spring of 2007 to recruit superstar quarterback Terrelle Pryor. Jeannette coach Ray Reitz knew a bit about Charlie Weis and his reputation. Still, he was stunned by what he describes as a level of conceit he never had seen from the dozens of college coaches he had visited with over the years.

Weis certainly made a lasting impression. "Arrogant as hell," Reitz said. When Reitz told Weis that Pryor might attend a USC quarterbacks camp, he remembers Weis replying: "Why send him there? If he's with me for one day he'll be good, two days he'll be great and three days he'll be incredible." Later, unprompted, Weis asked the Jeannette coaches if they wanted to take a picture of his Super Bowl ring. "I did it, just to be polite, and then gave [the picture] to one of the kids," Reitz recalled.

Everyone who comes into contact with Weis, it seems, has a story -- and they're rarely complimentary. Many former players and alums are down on him for what they perceive as his arrogance, but they're reluctant to speak for the record. Why? As one prominent alum explained it, "A lot of things at Notre Dame hinge on your being a friend of the university." Alumni are fearful that if they speak out against Weis, they might lose their football tickets or their parking spots, or hinder their kids' chances for admission to the school. Yet they paint a picture consistent with a coach who referred to himself as "an obnoxious, sarcastic guy from New Jersey" in a "60 Minutes" profile that aired in 2006.

Chicago Tribune

OnBaseMachine
11-15-2008, 04:36 PM
Notre Dame just about pulled off one of the biggest choke jobs in a long time. They had a 27-7 lead with about two minutes left and Navy come back and scored a TD, recovered an onside kick, scored again to make it 27-21 and then recovered yet another onside kick. Navy should have scored again as they had a receiver wide open for a TD and he fell down. ND holds on to win 27-21. I wouldn't be surprised to see Weis fired at the end of the season. On ESPN a few nights ago, Reese Davis asked Lou Holtz to grade Weis on his performance this season: Holtz gave him an A-. LOL.

Highlifeman21
11-15-2008, 05:28 PM
The worst part about today is that Fat Charlie celebrated beating Navy.

That's right, Navy.

One of our military academies....


Sure, they beat ya last year Fat Charlie, but let's not get excited you beat them this year....

BuckeyeRed27
11-15-2008, 07:24 PM
The worst part about today is that Fat Charlie celebrated beating Navy.

That's right, Navy.

One of our military academies....


Sure, they beat ya last year Fat Charlie, but let's not get excited you beat them this year....

I can't believe I'm going to do this because I am no fan of Charlie Weis....but I really don't have a coach celebrating a win, even against Navy. It was a close game against a team that you lost to last year. His celebrating doesn't undermine the work of the Navy players its just him being happy his team won a tight game.

Ok now I can get back to hating all things Notre Dame.

WVRed
11-15-2008, 08:53 PM
Another Charlie Weis story that has become pretty popular:

The top O-Line recruit in the nation by Scout.com, Josh Jenkins, attended Parkersburg High and went on to play at WVU. He was recruited by pretty much everybody. I was at the Class AAA championship back last November and it was literally a Who's Who of college coaches. Jim Tressel was there I believe, so was Urban Meyer, and the O-Line coach at Florida State.

Charlie Weis, in his attempt to sell Jenkins to Notre Dame, and more or less told him "You can go to West Virginia and after you finish playing football, you can get a job anywhere in the state of West Virginia."

"...Or you can come to Notre Dame and get a job anywhere."

FWIW, Weis is right in regards to WVU vs Notre Dame academically. However, Jenkins wanted to stay closer to home and Weis came off as arrogant and Jenkins more or less crossed him off his list right then.

MWM
11-15-2008, 09:00 PM
WVU, you won't be able to find one coach of a big-tim program who won't say similar things.

WVRed
11-15-2008, 11:10 PM
WVU, you won't be able to find one coach of a big-tim program who won't say similar things.

I don't disagree, but it was the way that Weis came off when he did it. It also didn't help that Jenkins was from West Virginia either.

I'm not a WVU fan by any stretch, but I can't help but think when you grow up pulling for a team and that team is being considered, and another coach comes in and makes the comment above, that it isn't going to go very far.

Of the schools recruiting him though, I believe Notre Dame probably had the best academics to offer. The problem lies within the messenger, though.

SunDeck
11-15-2008, 11:35 PM
I've met Charlie Weis. It was in SC, where he has often held his celebrity golf outing to support Hannah & Friends, a foundation named after his daughter who has autism.

The event takes place at the club where my parents live and I saw him with his entourage of coaches at Piggly Wiggly. He was at the deli, ordering things someone his size has no business eating. I was there too, and said hi and wished him well and good luck with the event. He acted like I was trying to take his pound and a half of sliced ham.

guttle11
11-16-2008, 01:26 AM
I love how he just walks around and asks people if they want to see his Super Bowl ring. Legit LOL stuff.

Highlifeman21
11-16-2008, 02:08 AM
I can't believe I'm going to do this because I am no fan of Charlie Weis....but I really don't have a coach celebrating a win, even against Navy. It was a close game against a team that you lost to last year. His celebrating doesn't undermine the work of the Navy players its just him being happy his team won a tight game.

Ok now I can get back to hating all things Notre Dame.

He should be ashamed they lost to Navy last year, and he should be ashamed they won a close game to Navy this year.


Navy is horrible.




That'd be like the Reds going nuts over a walk off win vs the Kansas City Royals. You don't go nuts over a victory like that. You're more ashamed of it than anything else. It's a game you should win, and the fact that it's close is just embarrasing.

cincrazy
11-16-2008, 03:19 AM
He should be ashamed they lost to Navy last year, and he should be ashamed they won a close game to Navy this year.


Navy is horrible.




That'd be like the Reds going nuts over a walk off win vs the Kansas City Royals. You don't go nuts over a victory like that. You're more ashamed of it than anything else. It's a game you should win, and the fact that it's close is just embarrasing.

Using the Reds of this decade is a bad example.... ;)

Now if the Big Red Machine celebrated after a walk off over KC, that'd be a joke. But this edition of the Reds should celebrate a win over a high school team :)

Puffy
11-16-2008, 12:38 PM
The worst part about today is that Fat Charlie celebrated beating Navy.

That's right, Navy.

One of our military academies....


Sure, they beat ya last year Fat Charlie, but let's not get excited you beat them this year....

You stay classy highlifeman.

And for the record, for the fourth straight year Navy is bowl eligible. But don't let facts like the fact that they are actually competititve stop you from your intelligent rants.

And just for the record - Weis has had three straight top 10 recruiting classes, including last years Number 1 or 2 overall class (depending on the recruiting site) and already has a top 10 class appearance this year. So those recruiting tales speak more of BS than anything.

Now, if you wanna talk about Weis being arrogant - I concede. You wanna talk about Weis not being a great, or maybe even a good, coach, I would have a hard time arguing. You wanna hate on ND - fine. But at least use something of intelligence to back it up.

But hey, Fat Charlie, intelligent stuff :thumbup:

Puffy
11-16-2008, 12:41 PM
Oh, and if you watched the game - it wasn't close. Notre Dame put all their second team in. A mistake - probably, but saying Notre Dame barely won, well, again, you didn't see the game.

It was a case of some calls going Navy's way (three 15 yard penalties against ND in the last 2 minutes, Navy getting 4 timeouts, a miscall on an onsides kick) and a case of ND once again not knowing how to go for a jugular and it almost biting them for the third time this year. Again, that goes back to Weis coaching and if it doesn't improve next year he's gone. But for now we take wins however we can get them.

MWM
11-16-2008, 12:44 PM
Was there a more arrogant coach than Steve Spurrier when he was at Florida? Probably not. I don't think many UF fans cared all that much, would be my guess.

redsfanmia
11-16-2008, 04:34 PM
You stay classy highlifeman.

And for the record, for the fourth straight year Navy is bowl eligible. But don't let facts like the fact that they are actually competititve stop you from your intelligent rants.

And just for the record - Weis has had three straight top 10 recruiting classes, including last years Number 1 or 2 overall class (depending on the recruiting site) and already has a top 10 class appearance this year. So those recruiting tales speak more of BS than anything.

Now, if you wanna talk about Weis being arrogant - I concede. You wanna talk about Weis not being a great, or maybe even a good, coach, I would have a hard time arguing. You wanna hate on ND - fine. But at least use something of intelligence to back it up.

But hey, Fat Charlie, intelligent stuff :thumbup:

I agree about the Fat Charlie stuff, but the whole top rated class thing is just because Notre Dame fans want to have top rated classes and they buy lots of subscriptions to websites and lots of recruiting magazines IMO.

Scrap Irony
11-16-2008, 05:29 PM
If that were the case, Kentucky would have the number one rated recruiting classes each year in CBB.

Don't buy that reasoning at all.

BoydsOfSummer
11-16-2008, 05:39 PM
This win should vault them into the top 12 or so.

redsfanmia
11-16-2008, 06:30 PM
If that were the case, Kentucky would have the number one rated recruiting classes each year in CBB.

Don't buy that reasoning at all.

Is Kentucky consistantly in the top ten of recruiting classes every year? North Carolina, Duke, Indiana and Lousville fans buy alot of preseason magazines and go to recruting websites too.

Highlifeman21
11-16-2008, 08:25 PM
You stay classy highlifeman.

And for the record, for the fourth straight year Navy is bowl eligible. But don't let facts like the fact that they are actually competititve stop you from your intelligent rants.

And just for the record - Weis has had three straight top 10 recruiting classes, including last years Number 1 or 2 overall class (depending on the recruiting site) and already has a top 10 class appearance this year. So those recruiting tales speak more of BS than anything.

Now, if you wanna talk about Weis being arrogant - I concede. You wanna talk about Weis not being a great, or maybe even a good, coach, I would have a hard time arguing. You wanna hate on ND - fine. But at least use something of intelligence to back it up.

But hey, Fat Charlie, intelligent stuff :thumbup:

My apologies, I got the Fat Charlie term from a Patriots fan.

I figured it was a term of endearment.


And you're right, Navy's turned their program around, while Notre Dame's attempting to keep their head above water (playing a cupcake schedule, no less).

Kudos to Navy, but Notre Dame's sense of entitlement is amusing to me, and the fact they celebrated beating a military academy is IMO laughable.

WVRed
11-16-2008, 09:34 PM
And just for the record - Weis has had three straight top 10 recruiting classes, including last years Number 1 or 2 overall class (depending on the recruiting site) and already has a top 10 class appearance this year. So those recruiting tales speak more of BS than anything.


Notre Dame is to college football what North Carolina is to college basketball. You could have a lackluster coach and still bring in top recruits. Just ask Matt Doherty.

Out of curiosity, since you are an Irish fan, who do you prefer, Willingham or Weis?

Puffy
11-17-2008, 12:46 PM
Notre Dame is to college football what North Carolina is to college basketball. You could have a lackluster coach and still bring in top recruits. Just ask Matt Doherty.

Out of curiosity, since you are an Irish fan, who do you prefer, Willingham or Weis?

Actually, thats not true - the reason so many of us were so happy to see Willingham gone was because he could not recruit. Just didn't care. The reason Notre Dame is down right now is because Willingham left the cupboard absolutely bare with lower classmen. He had the Quinn/Stovall/Jeff S. junior class and then nothing below it. He completely stopped recruiting linemen of any kind.

So, you do have to work to recruit at ND - Urban Meyer (that no good SOB, good Catholic my butt) went to Florida because of recruiting. He asked for more latitude in allowing kids in and thus niether side got really anywhere in him coming to ND. But make no mistake about it, he had it written into his contract at Utah that he could bolt with no buyout at any time for one job and one job only - ND.

To Weis - he is a top notch recruiter. I mean absolutely top notch. You can say all you want that sites overrate ND kids, or its money driven, but what you have to realize is that ND won't even recruit a kid who can't qualify with their standards (and its more than just GPA, they have to have taken certain courses at the High School level, so even if they have the GPA if they haven't taken these set classes they are not eligible). It really limits the pool that say an Alabama class will take.

Anyway, again, the ability of Weis to coach these kids that are so highly rated is what will determine if he gets more than one more year. He was an amazing coach in year 1, but since then he has been average at best as an in game coach (and I'm including prep work) and he needs to get better. A lot better. So we'll see.

WVRed
11-17-2008, 02:22 PM
Is there anybody being mentioned in case they let Weis go after this year?

Chip R
11-17-2008, 02:25 PM
Is there anybody being mentioned in case they let Weis go after this year?


Nick Saban? ;)

cumberlandreds
11-17-2008, 02:27 PM
Is there anybody being mentioned in case they let Weis go after this year?

Petrino will have interest.

bucksfan2
11-17-2008, 02:41 PM
Actually, thats not true - the reason so many of us were so happy to see Willingham gone was because he could not recruit. Just didn't care. The reason Notre Dame is down right now is because Willingham left the cupboard absolutely bare with lower classmen. He had the Quinn/Stovall/Jeff S. junior class and then nothing below it. He completely stopped recruiting linemen of any kind.

But then again Charlie Weis took Willingham's players to two BCS games. They didn't deserve to go but they went regardless.

One of the main reasons ND is where they are now is Weis hans't been able to transition a top notch recruit into a top notch football player. The best coaches in college football take the freshman who walk into the door day one and improve them every day in every practice. Weis has had a problem taking a player and developing him.

Unassisted
11-17-2008, 02:50 PM
The thing I like most about Charlie Weis is that he's making Gerry Faust look good by comparison. Faust was the polar opposite of Weis when it comes to humility and is widely-regarded as a fine human being, but his ND teams couldn't win. I was never sorrier to see a coach fail so miserably than I was about Gerry Faust.

Charlie's got the whole negative package. ;)

Puffy
11-17-2008, 02:51 PM
But then again Charlie Weis took Willingham's players to two BCS games. They didn't deserve to go but they went regardless.

One of the main reasons ND is where they are now is Weis hans't been able to transition a top notch recruit into a top notch football player. The best coaches in college football take the freshman who walk into the door day one and improve them every day in every practice. Weis has had a problem taking a player and developing him.

Thats true - but you still need upperclassmen to bridge some of the gap. Notre Dame lacked three things - team speed, line play on both sides of the ball, and defensive playmakers.

Speed, you can bring in. Line play - thats the area where freshman and sophomores can't come in and make immediate impacts. We still lack defensive playmakers and thats Weis' fault.

And ND absolutely deserved to go to a BCS bowl in Year 1 - They were 9-2, beat a very good Michigan team, took a great USC team to the last play of the game, beat Penn State. Year one they were good.

Now, year two, I'll agree - but a 10-2 ND team will always go to the BCS, deserving or no. Just like an 11-1 OSU team will always go - sure ND has an extra loss to play with, but thats life.

*BaseClogger*
11-17-2008, 08:51 PM
sure ND has an extra loss to play with, but thats life.

Sure, the system is flawed, but that's life...

Revering4Blue
11-20-2008, 08:27 PM
Interesting.


Notre Dame, Meyer seem like perfect fit

November 20, 2008


It was a parenthetical pause. An aside in a column I wrote last week comparing the differing coaching styles between the University of Florida's Living Legend (Steve Spurrier) and current legend, or Urban Legend, (Urban Meyer). It was an opinion I threw into the churning sea that is Gator Nation, which was quickly treated as chum.

Oh, the e-mails.

Why do I think Urban Meyer would go to Notre Dame?

First, let me interject to say that just because I think Notre Dame is in Meyer's future doesn't mean I want it to be. It'd be great to see him spend the next 20 years of his coaching life at UF. I just don't think he will.

Again, that's just an opinion; an opinion that got heavy reaction.

A common contention in my e-mail in-box is that in 2004, Meyer turned down Notre Dame in favor of becoming Florida's coach. Why, then, would he leave a school he once chose over Notre Dame to go to Notre Dame?

Why?

Because things change.

After winning the 1996 National Championship, Spurrier went to bed prepared to wake up the next morning and take the Tampa Bay Buccaneers' job. He didn't. But five years later, he did jump to the NFL. Things change.

In his authorized biography "Urban's Way," written with former FLORIDA TODAY sports editor Buddy Martin, Meyer refers to his Big Three coaching jobs, the only three his wife Shelley has no veto power to block him from taking a job at. They are Notre Dame, Ohio State and Michigan.

Of those three, Meyer's self-proclaimed "dream job" -- his quote, not mine -- is Notre Dame, where he was once an assistant under Lou Holtz, spending five years with the Golden Domers. Meyer also spent the first two years of his coaching career as a graduate assistant at Ohio State, where he earned his master's degree. He is an Ohio boy who grew up revering Woody Hayes.

So why didn't Meyer take the Fighting Irish job in 2004? Because the timing wasn't right. His authorized biography explains, "Florida's biggest advantage would turn out to be Urban's and Shelley's desire for a strong family life, because he could recruit closer to home."

At Notre Dame, you recruit nationally, which means flying around the country, away from home a lot more. At a state school like Florida, you can recruit a kid, or several kids, during the day, and still be home for dinner, or at one of your kid's practices, that night. With a young family, that mattered a lot. But even with that in play, turning down Notre Dame was very difficult, as Meyer notes in this passage in his biography:

"I wanted to go to Notre Dame," Meyer admitted, "but my family wanted to talk about going to Florida."

Shelley knew how tough the decision was for her husband because "he left his heart at Notre Dame when we left there last time -- he really, really, really loved Notre Dame."

That's "really" loved three times, if you're scoring at home.

So, again, the main reason Meyer chose Florida over Notre Dame in 2004 was because he had a young family.

Memo to Gator fans: The family isn't that young anymore.

Oldest daughter Nicole is 18, getting ready to leave the nest and head to Georgia Tech on a volleyball scholarship. Next oldest is Gigi, 15, a high school sophomore. Then there's Nathan, who turns 10 Monday. Soon, he'll only have one child at home, which makes it much easier for him to balance his professional and personal life -- i.e. the rigors of coaching the Fighting Irish.

All of this is relevant, of course, because Charlie Weis continues to struggle at Notre Dame. You just know that if Notre Dame could trade Weis for Meyer, they'd do it in a heartbeat.

If you're the Fighting Irish, you must have a short list of candidates in mind if you do make a coaching change. And if you're the Fighting Irish, Urban Meyer absolutely has to top that list.

In my opinion, Meyer is one of the country's three best college coaches, along with Southern Cal's Pete Carroll and Alabama's Nick Saban.

For Notre Dame's purposes, Meyer is the guy who repeatedly, and even in his current biography, calls coaching your football program his "dream job." He's also, and this is no small consideration, devoutly Catholic, even named after a pope.

For Notre Dame's purposes, Meyer runs a clean program, wins, works like a maniac, is passionate about recruiting, and cares deeply about what kind of men he produces off the football field.

In short, he is everything Notre Dame would want.

He is -- dare I say it? -- Notre Dame's dream coach.

Better yet, your dream coach calls your school his dream job. How often does that happen?

And people wonder why I think a marriage is inevitable?

For what it's worth, I discussed the topic yesterday with Buddy Martin, author of "Urban's Way." Buddy's gotten closer to Meyer than any journalist I know, and he reiterated to me that "Notre Dame is Urban's first love."

Will it be his last love?

Martin said he doesn't see Meyer coaching the Gators beyond the length of his current contract, which has five years remaining.

Me?

I don't see him lasting that long.

Again, just an opinion.

http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20081120/COLUMNISTS0306/811200343/1065/SPORTS

UKFlounder
11-22-2008, 07:33 PM
What a shocker today - Syra freaking cuse?

Yikes

BuckeyeRed27
11-22-2008, 07:46 PM
It's a bad loss but not a shocker. Notre Dame is terrible.

Marc D
11-22-2008, 07:50 PM
What a shocker today - Syra freaking cuse?

Yikes


Its Ty's fault.

guttle11
11-22-2008, 08:00 PM
Maybe he'll show his Super Bowl ring in the press conference thinking people will forget about the game. Shades of the Simpsons:

"Do you want to hear the horrifying truth, or look at my Super Bowl ring?"

"Ring, ring, ring, ring, ring..."

Highlifeman21
11-22-2008, 08:57 PM
Syracuse beats ND?

Doesn't get any better than that....



How we lookin' Fat Charlie?



Up 23 - 10 after 3 quarters, only to lose 24 - 23? I mean wow....

Thanks Fat Charlie and ND, I needed this today...

OnBaseMachine
11-22-2008, 09:03 PM
Notre Dame is now 6-5. Here's a list of teams Notre Dame has beaten this season:

San Diego State (1-10)
Michigan (3-9)
Purdue (4-8)
Stanford (5-7)
Washington (0-11)
Navy (6-4)

Charlie Weis has a ridiculous buyout in is contract so I doubt he gets fired.

Highlifeman21
11-22-2008, 09:06 PM
Notre Dame is now 6-5. Here's a list of teams Notre Dame has beaten this season:

San Diego State (1-10)
Michigan (3-9)
Purdue (4-8)
Stanford (5-7)
Washington (0-11)
Navy (6-4)

Charlie Weis has a ridiculous buyout in is contract so I doubt he gets fired.

Good Job Fat Charlie

I'm proud of ya...

of your 6 wins, Navy was your only team above .500...

The rest, not so much...

I bet the Irish faithful are proud of your fat butt.....

WVRed
11-22-2008, 09:11 PM
I caught the last part of the game. Give Greg Robinson credit, he stopped NBC during the middle of the interview to let Notre Dame perform the Alma Mater.

There were times that Jimmy Clausen looked like a Heisman candidate, and others that he just looked bumfuzzled. He has a rocket arm, just hope some weapons and a defense materialize.

*BaseClogger*
11-22-2008, 09:22 PM
They've met their special requirements to be eligible for the BCS this year, right? :rolleyes:

OnBaseMachine
11-22-2008, 09:53 PM
South Bend fans shower Notre Dame players, police with snowballs

Associated Press

Updated: November 22, 2008, 8:20 PM ET

SOUTH BEND, Ind. -- Notre Dame football players were pelted by snowballs from fans sitting in the student section during their loss to Syracuse on Saturday.

"To throw snowballs at their own team, I didn't think that was a smart thing to do. I guess [they thought] it was funny," defensive tackle Pat Kuntz said after Syracuse upset the Irish 24-23.

South Bend was hit with about 10 inches of snow Friday. While the field had been cleared before the game, there was still snow along the fringes and in some areas of the stands.

Fans at first threw snow in the air, but then quickly switched to tossing snowballs toward the Notre Dame sideline. Defensive lineman Ian Williams got hit in the helmet, defensive end Ethan Johnson was struck on the left cheek and a St. Joseph County police officer on the sideline looking into the crowd got hit in the chest. An NBC camera man also was a frequent target and several snowballs reached the field, although none landed near where play was occurring.

When the Irish defense held a meeting on the sideline, injured linebacker Brian Smith stood on a bench to try to shield his teammates. But when a snowball hit Kuntz, he stood and faced the crowd and appeared to challenge whoever threw it to come down on the field.

"I was pretty mad about that, but whatever the fans want to do," Kuntz, a senior who was playing his last game at Notre Dame Stadium, said flatly.

At least one fan was seen being led away by police.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=3719375

WMR
11-22-2008, 10:07 PM
South Bend fans shower Notre Dame players, police with snowballs

Associated Press

Updated: November 22, 2008, 8:20 PM ET

SOUTH BEND, Ind. -- Notre Dame football players were pelted by snowballs from fans sitting in the student section during their loss to Syracuse on Saturday.

"To throw snowballs at their own team, I didn't think that was a smart thing to do. I guess [they thought] it was funny," defensive tackle Pat Kuntz said after Syracuse upset the Irish 24-23.

South Bend was hit with about 10 inches of snow Friday. While the field had been cleared before the game, there was still snow along the fringes and in some areas of the stands.

Fans at first threw snow in the air, but then quickly switched to tossing snowballs toward the Notre Dame sideline. Defensive lineman Ian Williams got hit in the helmet, defensive end Ethan Johnson was struck on the left cheek and a St. Joseph County police officer on the sideline looking into the crowd got hit in the chest. An NBC camera man also was a frequent target and several snowballs reached the field, although none landed near where play was occurring.

When the Irish defense held a meeting on the sideline, injured linebacker Brian Smith stood on a bench to try to shield his teammates. But when a snowball hit Kuntz, he stood and faced the crowd and appeared to challenge whoever threw it to come down on the field.

"I was pretty mad about that, but whatever the fans want to do," Kuntz, a senior who was playing his last game at Notre Dame Stadium, said flatly.

At least one fan was seen being led away by police.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=3719375

Rudy II?

Chip R
11-22-2008, 10:50 PM
You stay classy, Irish fans.

remdog
11-23-2008, 04:06 AM
Maybe they thought they were in Cleveland. :p:

Rem

*BaseClogger*
11-23-2008, 04:34 PM
The wheels are falling off! Mutiny! :eek:

Jack Burton
11-23-2008, 09:33 PM
Ha, excellent job by the 'cuse sticking it to ND. Pretty much seals the deal that the tub of lard won't be back next year.

OnBaseMachine
11-30-2008, 01:34 AM
Notre Dame lost to USC tonight 38-3 and fell to 6-6. Will Weis get fired?

Revering4Blue
11-30-2008, 11:42 AM
Collegefootballtalk.com reports that Brian Kelly of Cincinnati is the favorite to replace Charlie Weis as Notre Dame's next head coach.
Weis reportedly could have saved his job with an upset of USC Saturday night, but the Irish were trounced 38-3. While Notre Dame's core is young, Weis' inability to get them to improve on a game-by-game basis was very discouraging. Notre Dame's 15 losses since 2007 are the most in any two-year span in school history. This could be bad news for Jimmy Clausen, however, as the sophomore QB made strides under Weis' tutelage at least in the early part of 2008. Nov. 30 - 12:39 a.m. ET
Source: Collegefootballtalk.com

http://fantasycollfoot.usatoday.com/content/homesport.asp?sport=CFB

paintmered
11-30-2008, 01:08 PM
According to Collegefootballtalk, Brian Kelly already took the Tennessee job...

MWM
11-30-2008, 01:09 PM
I could be wrong, but I don't see them firing Weis after this year. It's possible and I could see the justification, but they did make progress over last year. I think he has to win 9 games next year to keep his job.

I think the financial implications will factor in, but I also think they don't want to go through the process of hiring another coach yet again this soon. Especially one who has recruited as well as Weis.

OnBaseMachine
11-30-2008, 01:15 PM
Anyone else unimpressed with Jimmy Clausen? I remember when people were calling him the LeBron James of college football. In his two year career he's got 27 TD passes to 23 interceptions.

paintmered
11-30-2008, 01:16 PM
I know that ND has all kinds of money flowing out of their ears, but $10MM+ to replace Weis is still a LOT of money. I can't help but think that with that kind of dough, they'd go to a more "established" coach like Urban Meyer or an NFL coach than an "up and comer" like Brian Kelly.

WMR
11-30-2008, 01:26 PM
I know that ND has all kinds of money flowing out of their ears, but $10MM+ to replace Weis is still a LOT of money. I can't help but think that with that kind of dough, they'd go to a more "established" coach like Urban Meyer or an NFL coach than an "up and comer" like Brian Kelly.

The 'hopefulness' emanating from this post is very apparent. ;)

WMR
11-30-2008, 01:28 PM
Anyone else unimpressed with Jimmy Clausen? I remember when people were calling him the LeBron James of college football. In his two year career he's got 27 TD passes to 23 interceptions.

Yeah he was supposed to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. I remember an article in SI hailing him as the second coming.

MWM
11-30-2008, 01:29 PM
That might be true that they might go after a guy like that, but I just don't know who they could get. I don't see any real established guy leaving a good job to come to ND. I don't see Meyer ever going to ND. Per a couple of ND folks I know (with some minor knowledge of what goes down) said that Meyer wanted to take the ND job, but asked for all kinds of demands recruiting related. None were granted, so he took the Florida job. And now he'd be insane to leave there.

The one thing that might work in ND's favor this time is that the cupboards are not bare like they were before. Supposedly, some of the coaches on the list last time saw what was coming last year as far lack of talent goes and were scared away. I don't know how true that is, but Willingham's recruiting classes were historically bad after his first one, so coaches had to know it would be an uphill battle. Things are different now. The next coach couldn't complain about lack of talent.

WMR
11-30-2008, 01:29 PM
I could be wrong, but I don't see them firing Weis after this year. It's possible and I could see the justification, but they did make progress over last year. I think he has to win 9 games next year to keep his job.

I think the financial implications will factor in, but I also think they don't want to go through the process of hiring another coach yet again this soon. Especially one who has recruited as well as Weis.

How many years has he been at ND now?

Seems like all of these top 10 recruiting classes he has assembled would make losing to Syracuse at home an impossibility. Is his player development THAT bad?

MWM
11-30-2008, 01:33 PM
How many years has he been at ND now?

Seems like all of these top 10 recruiting classes he has assembled would make losing to Syracuse at home an impossibility. Is his player development THAT bad?

His first real recruiting class are sophomores right now. And most of the entire starting lineup is freshman and sophomores. It's hard to win against good D1 competition without upper classmen. I think everyone, including Weis, knows that next year is the watershed year for him. He has to deliver then or he's gone. He didn't forget how to coach all of a sudden. I don't there's ever been a coach who could have won many games with what he had last year.

WMR
11-30-2008, 01:36 PM
His first real recruiting class are sophomores right now. And most of the entire starting lineup is freshman and sophomores. It's hard to win against good D1 competition without upper classmen. I think everyone, including Weis, knows that next year is the watershed year for him. He has to deliver then or he's gone. He didn't forget how to coach all of a sudden. I don't there's ever been a coach who could have won many games with what he had last year.

Gotcha. Yeah, I didn't know they were THAT young. He should get one more year, IMO. I agree, next year is make or break for the big guy.

paintmered
11-30-2008, 01:37 PM
The 'hopefulness' emanating from this post is very apparent. ;)

Sure, I want Kelly to stay. But if I'm going to cough up millions to get a guy, Kelly isn't the tops on my list.

That said, if ND offers the job to Kelly, he's gone. There's no denial there.

WMR
11-30-2008, 01:39 PM
Sure, I want Kelly to stay. But if I'm going to cough up millions to get a guy, Kelly isn't the tops on my list.

That said, if ND offers the job to Kelly, he's gone. There's no denial there.

I'm with you. (Although I can't think of many names outside of Urban Meyer that I would want more than BK.)

Just giving you a bit of a hard time. ;)

I hope BK sticks around at UC and dominates the Big East for the next decade.

Chip R
11-30-2008, 03:38 PM
His first real recruiting class are sophomores right now. And most of the entire starting lineup is freshman and sophomores. It's hard to win against good D1 competition without upper classmen. I think everyone, including Weis, knows that next year is the watershed year for him. He has to deliver then or he's gone. He didn't forget how to coach all of a sudden. I don't there's ever been a coach who could have won many games with what he had last year.


From what someone said on the radio earlier this week, Weis has not been developing the talent. He has gone almost exclusively with his first team and his younger players couldn't get the opportunity to develop under game conditions. The same guy said that Weis is doing better now about that. My take is that he's a great recruiter - although it isn't difficult to get guys to come to ND - he's a great offensive coordinator but he's a poor head coach. There's no shame in that. Many coaches were better suited as offensive or defensive coordinators and were just not head coach material. I didn't get to watch a lot of the USC game last night but USC was just having their way with ND. A USC guy would catch a pass and it would take 3-4 ND guys to bring him down after he broke a few tackles. The problem is that ND wants their program to be on the same level as USC. Going by from what I saw last night, they have a long way to go no matter who the coach is.

Jack Burton
12-01-2008, 09:44 PM
Hopefully they keep him so they continue to suck.

MWM
12-01-2008, 11:31 PM
From what someone said on the radio earlier this week, Weis has not been developing the talent. He has gone almost exclusively with his first team and his younger players couldn't get the opportunity to develop under game conditions. The same guy said that Weis is doing better now about that. My take is that he's a great recruiter - although it isn't difficult to get guys to come to ND - he's a great offensive coordinator but he's a poor head coach. There's no shame in that. Many coaches were better suited as offensive or defensive coordinators and were just not head coach material. I didn't get to watch a lot of the USC game last night but USC was just having their way with ND. A USC guy would catch a pass and it would take 3-4 ND guys to bring him down after he broke a few tackles. The problem is that ND wants their program to be on the same level as USC. Going by from what I saw last night, they have a long way to go no matter who the coach is.

That might very well be true. Coaching history is littered with great x's and o's guys who were poor once they were the leaders. Weis might be one of those guys. But I know enough about recruiting and just how bad the talent situation was when he got there. I don't think there are many coaches who could have won last year in South Bend. This year, that might be different. But he did double the win total, so I think you have to give him at least one year to win with his players. I think that's what will happen. Next year we'll learn if he's head coach material or not.

Highlifeman21
12-02-2008, 01:39 AM
How many years has he been at ND now?

Seems like all of these top 10 recruiting classes he has assembled would make losing to Syracuse at home an impossibility. Is his player development THAT bad?

Or it's possible that Notre Dame's last 3 recruiting classes aren't as great as originally advertised.

redsfanmia
12-02-2008, 06:09 AM
Or it's possible that Notre Dame's last 3 recruiting classes aren't as great as originally advertised.

The recruits are elevated in rank once they sign with Notre Dame.

MWM
12-02-2008, 10:01 AM
The recruits are elevated in rank once they sign with Notre Dame.

Not true at all. PLayers are ranked long before they sign with any school. There's a forumula in place for most recruiting publications that rank schools based on the # of 3,4, or 5 start recruits they get.

Puffy
12-02-2008, 11:07 AM
The recruits are elevated in rank once they sign with Notre Dame.

Actually, the last couple of years they have had more recruits de-elevated than elevated.

And, as MWM already pointed out, the stars are in place long before players start signing. Once they get rated they generally only can move one level.

Finally, just to quash any more wrongful info - in the last three years no ND signee has moved up more than a few places after signing with ND. Michael Floyd is the only one that went from 4 star to 5 star last year and he proved on the field that he deserved it.

Marc D
12-02-2008, 04:52 PM
As long as we are clearing up facts in this thread, I keep seeing that CW hasn't had enough time?

CW was hired in Dec 2004. That means he had a hand in recruiting the 2005 Freshman and is 100% responsible for anyone who signed on after 2006. A 2006 Freshman just completed his JR year. Am I missing something or are my dates wrong?

3 years of his own recruits seems like it should be long enough for such a self admitted offensive genius to take his schematic advantage and do better than the 85th best scoring offense in the country.

I can almost buy the logic that it takes 4-5 years to build up the talent base to compete with the USC's and other big time schools they play but how much do you have to stockpile to beat Navy or Syracuse?

Cedric
12-02-2008, 05:26 PM
Anyone that thinks offer lists don't matter in star rankings are wrong. Players rankings change drastically from month to month based on who is offering, how the player is playing, and growth. Sometimes players that commit early are downgraded because they can't sell subscriptions, I don't deny that. But it is well known that Tom Lemming would pump up and hype recruits based on a Notre Dame offer. And it's well known that Scout.Com has hyped ND recruits. Their All American Bowl game is played on NBC and is laughable in it's promotion of ND recruits.

Check out how many Notre Dame recruits have played in that game in recent years and compare their rankings from Scout to Rivals. It's obvious there is a bias.

Puffy
12-02-2008, 05:49 PM
As long as we are clearing up facts in this thread, I keep seeing that CW hasn't had enough time?

CW was hired in Dec 2004. That means he had a hand in recruiting the 2005 Freshman and is 100% responsible for anyone who signed on after 2006. A 2006 Freshman just completed his JR year. Am I missing something or are my dates wrong?

3 years of his own recruits seems like it should be long enough for such a self admitted offensive genius to take his schematic advantage and do better than the 85th best scoring offense in the country.

I can almost buy the logic that it takes 4-5 years to build up the talent base to compete with the USC's and other big time schools they play but how much do you have to stockpile to beat Navy or Syracuse?

You bring up good points MarcD -

He's had three complete classes. I don't blame him at all for last year (thats how bad things were with Willingham). This year, ND played just like I thought up til the second half of the Pitt game and then they regressed. Badly. And thats where I blame Weis. He's actually lost me as a supporter. I'm willing to give him another year, but my hopes are, well, not optimistic.

Funny how I still have to defend him though on a Reds message board from Ohio State fans who would crucify me if I said half as bad of things about Tressel (or Cooper back 7 years ago).

Ohio State fans - Double standards since forever.

Marc D
12-02-2008, 06:14 PM
You bring up good points MarcD -

He's had three complete classes. I don't blame him at all for last year (thats how bad things were with Willingham). This year, ND played just like I thought up til the second half of the Pitt game and then they regressed. Badly. And thats where I blame Weis. He's actually lost me as a supporter. I'm willing to give him another year, but my hopes are, well, not optimistic.

Funny how I still have to defend him though on a Reds message board from Ohio State fans who would crucify me if I said half as bad of things about Tressel (or Cooper back 7 years ago).

Ohio State fans - Double standards since forever.

You don't have to defend him to this OSU fan. I hope he stays forever.

As far as OSU coaches go, if they were losing like CW is I doubt you'd anger too many OSU fans by insulting them. I obviously don't condone it but if CW were the coach at OSU he'd be in fear for his life at this point, not just his job.

Hell, Tressel needs a good showing in this Bowl game or the questions about him and his staff will start getting above a dull roar.

WVRed
12-02-2008, 07:53 PM
You bring up good points MarcD -

He's had three complete classes. I don't blame him at all for last year (thats how bad things were with Willingham). This year, ND played just like I thought up til the second half of the Pitt game and then they regressed. Badly. And thats where I blame Weis. He's actually lost me as a supporter. I'm willing to give him another year, but my hopes are, well, not optimistic.

Funny how I still have to defend him though on a Reds message board from Ohio State fans who would crucify me if I said half as bad of things about Tressel (or Cooper back 7 years ago).

Ohio State fans - Double standards since forever.

At least you're not a Kentucky fan with Tubby Smith.

MWM
12-02-2008, 09:08 PM
I don't think it's quite fair to count the first class. He came into the job in December. Mostkids have already made decisions by that point in time, or at least have it narrowed down to a couple of schools. They've been going through the recruiting process for more than a year. To expect a coach to come in and field a strong class that late in the game is asking a lot. The current sophomore class is really his first full recruiting class.

And for the record, the majority of the negative CW comments in this thread are coming from fans not of OSU, but other schools. Just thought I'd clear that up.

Reds Fanatic
12-02-2008, 09:34 PM
According to ESPN several sources out of South Bend are reporting tonight that Weiss will be back for another year.

Puffy
12-02-2008, 11:14 PM
And for the record, the majority of the negative CW comments in this thread are coming from fans not of OSU, but other schools. Just thought I'd clear that up.

I don't care if people question his coaching - hell, I now seriously question his ability to develop any talent. Any developing by Charlie of someone not named Quinn has been non-existent.

What I have a problem with is the "Fat Charlie" etc comments that no one but me has said a word about.

If I personally attacked an OSU coach I would hear it six ways to Sunday - but the crickets are deafening when its a comment against ND.

Marc D
12-02-2008, 11:28 PM
I don't think it's quite fair to count the first class. He came into the job in December. Mostkids have already made decisions by that point in time, or at least have it narrowed down to a couple of schools. They've been going through the recruiting process for more than a year. To expect a coach to come in and field a strong class that late in the game is asking a lot. The current sophomore class is really his first full recruiting class.

And for the record, the majority of the negative CW comments in this thread are coming from fans not of OSU, but other schools. Just thought I'd clear that up.


I still think you are giving him an extra season in there.

CW hired Dec 2004--Signing day 2005 kids not really his--->freshmen in 2005 season.

Signing day Feb 2006 kids 100% his---> Freshmen fall of 2006---> Just completed their JR (3rd) season this year/2008 season.

So the kids who just finished their 4th/SR season were the ones from the partial class of his on signing day 2005. Everyone else has been in the program at least 3 years.

Like I said, as an OSU fan I hope he stays but f I were a Domer fan interested in winning again I wouldn't be buying the "they aren't his kids yet" line.

I remember hearing Lou Holtz say that Ara told him when he got the job that he needed every bit of his HC experience to handle it and Holtz fervently agreed once he went through it. CW had zero HC experience before stepping into a situation legends like Ara and Holtz found demanding even with their experience when they took the job. He's simply in over his head imo.

I can understand ND not wanting to admit a mistake and give him another year but he's not going to flip some magic switch in the off season. The worse thing that could happen to ND fans is what happened to OSU fans in 1994. The mediocre coach who should already be gone gets a win or else ultimatum, pulls one out of his posterior and continues his sucking ways for another 6 years or so.

*BaseClogger*
12-03-2008, 01:47 AM
What I have a problem with is the "Fat Charlie" etc comments that no one but me has said a word about.

If I personally attacked an OSU coach I would hear it six ways to Sunday - but the crickets are deafening when its a comment against ND.

It's just a nickname, get over it.

And the reason no one cares he is called that is because it is a silly nickname and because a majority of college football fans dislike Notre Dame...

redsfanmia
12-03-2008, 06:53 AM
It's just a nickname, get over it.

And the reason no one cares he is called that is because it is a silly nickname and because a majority of college football fans dislike Notre Dame...

Its a little different the man almost died from a botched surgery to deal with his weight. Calling the man "Fat Charlie" is out of line IMO.

Highlifeman21
12-03-2008, 08:05 AM
Supposedly confirmed that South Bend Slim is coming back for his 5th season.

IMO, I don't see him coaching for a 6th season unless he magically wins 8+ games.

Puffy
12-03-2008, 10:43 AM
It's just a nickname, get over it.

And the reason no one cares he is called that is because it is a silly nickname and because a majority of college football fans dislike Notre Dame...

I suppose when someone called him "fat tub of lard" that was also just a silly nickname?

And the majority of college fans don't like ND, OK, probably true. But more people dislike Ohio State cause the majority of OSU fans are arrogant schmucks. I would guess you are an arrogant schmuck - but don't get upset over that, its just a nickname, and most of college football dislikes you so its ok for me to call you that. And I guess if you don't like it, well, get over it.

Puffy
12-03-2008, 10:45 AM
Supposedly confirmed that South Bend Slim is coming back for his 5th season.

IMO, I don't see him coaching for a 6th season unless he magically wins 8+ games.

I would say 9 wins.

And it might not be a magical as you think. They have lots of talent and the growth between the sophomore year and junior year is almost always the biggest. Combine that with a soft schedule and they might get there.

But it brings us right back to the can Weis develop talent and I'm still not sold (even if he gets to 9 wins) that he can. But next year might get him another.

Chip R
12-03-2008, 11:21 AM
I would say 9 wins.

And it might not be a magical as you think. They have lots of talent and the growth between the sophomore year and junior year is almost always the biggest. Combine that with a soft schedule and they might get there.

But it brings us right back to the can Weis develop talent and I'm still not sold (even if he gets to 9 wins) that he can. But next year might get him another.


I heard that schedule this morning. 9 wins won't be a gimme with the likes of BC, Purdue, USC and a more than likely improved Michigan on the schedule.

Puffy
12-03-2008, 11:35 AM
I heard that schedule this morning. 9 wins won't be a gimme with the likes of BC, Purdue, USC and a more than likely improved Michigan on the schedule.

Oh, I agree - with what I've seen on the field the last three and a half weeks 9 wins seems like a HUGE pipe dream. As I stated, this team regressed like you wouldn't believe out of nowhere.

But I still think he needs 9 wins to stay and they will get very close....

WMR
12-03-2008, 11:38 AM
Do you want that to happen, Puffy? Is that in the best long-term interests of Notre Dame football?

Jack Burton
12-03-2008, 11:49 AM
Nice to see the double standard is in full effect at ND. So fat charlie gets to keep his job after running the program into the dirt? If it's about money than I somewhat understand, but it was stupid to give him such a contract in the first place. Cheers to another terrible season at ND with Ol' Tub O' at the helm.

Chip R
12-03-2008, 11:59 AM
Oh, I agree - with what I've seen on the field the last three and a half weeks 9 wins seems like a HUGE pipe dream. As I stated, this team regressed like you wouldn't believe out of nowhere.

But I still think he needs 9 wins to stay and they will get very close....


9 is just a number between 8 and 10. I don't think I have to tell you this, Puffy, but even though 9 wins is much better than 6 and could possibly put them into a BCS bowl, right now they have a long, long, long way to go to be on the level of a USC or Alabama or Florida which is where ND is supposed to be. Getting 9 wins and getting the crap kicked out of them in a BCS game is a place that they don't want to be. Personally, I think they are fooling themselves if they think Weis is the guy to turn it around. Not only have they regressed this year, as you stated earlier, but they have regressed from when he started coaching there. It can't be the talent since he's supposed to be getting top talent in there. The schedule has been fairly soft. It's not like they don't have any money to have first class facilities. So it's gotta be Weis. If they think he's the one to get them back to that elite level, they have to be more patient with him and keep him for at least 3-4 more years. Keeping him around next year and possibly the next because they don't want to pay his buyout means they are more concerned with money than winning.

Puffy
12-03-2008, 12:25 PM
Wily Mo - I'm just not sure. I supported Weis and thought he was doing a pretty good job even through last year. Now I have moved to the fence and quite honestly, I just don't know.

Chip - Weis did a fantastic job in year 1. They had no business being 9-2 before the bowl and he helped Quinn and Shark and Walker all become better players. Year two should have been better, but I still think he did OK considering his defense was wicked depleted from Ty. Year 3 anyone should have seen coming. Weis contributed by playing all upperclassmen his first two years and then when everyone left he had only inexperienced, mediocre players sprinkled with talented freshman. This year the younger kids needed to grow and they were doing that - 80% of ND scores were by freshman and sophomores. But then they stopped. So I don't know anymore.

But to address your 3-4 year point. Before Weis took over there was a lot of talk (from the Davie and Willingham camps) that ND couldn't compete recruiting wise anymore because of academic standards and the school's unwillingness to deviate from that. Weis has made that point moot. He has recruited unbelievably well, getting the kids he has targeted at an alarming rate. Now, some of those kids (like ALL recruiting classes, even at Florida and Alabama) have turned out to be "busts" but the fact that he can sell ND to anyone is an unbelievable thing. And as long as he recruits like that I can deal with him staying. Contrary to the uninformed on this board (and within ND nation) the ND football program is not dead. Willingham tried to kill it (much like he has done to Washington) but its coming around. They need more speed and more athletes, but they are getting there. If Clausen makes strides this spring then watch out, cause Floyd and Golden Tate and Deion Walker and Shaq Evans are gonna light things up. They need a running game (which they do not have right now - its whats killing them) but development is the key, and if he does that and they win, well, we will see

Jack Burton
12-03-2008, 01:35 PM
Kudos to charlie for an excellent job calling the offensive plays, way to turn things around. Will you be calling the plays next year also?
You earned it pal.:beerme:

*BaseClogger*
12-03-2008, 11:57 PM
I suppose when someone called him "fat tub of lard" that was also just a silly nickname?

And the majority of college fans don't like ND, OK, probably true. But more people dislike Ohio State cause the majority of OSU fans are arrogant schmucks. I would guess you are an arrogant schmuck - but don't get upset over that, its just a nickname, and most of college football dislikes you so its ok for me to call you that. And I guess if you don't like it, well, get over it.

:lol:

Nope, doesn't bother me one bit when someone paints with such a broad brush, especially if it's a pot calling the kettle black!

bucksfan2
12-04-2008, 09:56 AM
Watching ND is kinda like looking at an accident. You want to turn away but you just can't. I heard on Mike and Mike in the morning that the last ND WR and RB drafted in the first rounds were Tim Brown and Bettis. I think for too long coaches hid behind the academic standards as a way to explain for their poor recruiting. Now Weis has brought in top class after top class but for whatever reason everything hasn't come together.

Weis made his bed with Jimmy Claussen. Claussen has taken after his coach in his arrogant and pompous ways. From the day he signed and flashed his HS championship ring saying he wanted 4 college ones Claussen took away his grace period. I find it amusing watching him play. He walks around the field like he is in total control of the game when he is struggling mightily. He carries himself like a prototype QB but doesn't play like one.

ND has got some good skill players on this team. Both Floyd and Rudolph look to be solid college players and future first day draft picks. But the defense and oline haven't improved one lick under Weis. They key for his success into the future is to begin beating good teams. With the exception of Michigan during his first year I don't believe ND has beaten one good, ranked team. They haven't won a bowl game since Lou. They have a large, passionate, fanatical fan base that loves ND football and longs for the days of Lou. Unless Charlie starts to show signs he will restore ND to that point he won't survive another season.

Puffy
12-04-2008, 10:56 AM
Watching ND is kinda like looking at an accident. You want to turn away but you just can't. I heard on Mike and Mike in the morning that the last ND WR and RB drafted in the first rounds were Tim Brown and Bettis. I think for too long coaches hid behind the academic standards as a way to explain for their poor recruiting. Now Weis has brought in top class after top class but for whatever reason everything hasn't come together.

Weis made his bed with Jimmy Claussen. Claussen has taken after his coach in his arrogant and pompous ways. From the day he signed and flashed his HS championship ring saying he wanted 4 college ones Claussen took away his grace period. I find it amusing watching him play. He walks around the field like he is in total control of the game when he is struggling mightily. He carries himself like a prototype QB but doesn't play like one.

ND has got some good skill players on this team. Both Floyd and Rudolph look to be solid college players and future first day draft picks. But the defense and oline haven't improved one lick under Weis. They key for his success into the future is to begin beating good teams. With the exception of Michigan during his first year I don't believe ND has beaten one good, ranked team. They haven't won a bowl game since Lou. They have a large, passionate, fanatical fan base that loves ND football and longs for the days of Lou. Unless Charlie starts to show signs he will restore ND to that point he won't survive another season.

Thats a solid post - the only thing I'd disagree with is that I don't think Charlie has made his bed with Clausen because he does have another top ranked qb (Dayne Crist) who if Clausen doesn't show improvement soon Crist might get a chance. And you're right, he hasn't played up to where he should yet, but I did see significant progress this year from him (zip on the ball, finally getting to checkdowns in progressions, getting the ball out faster, etc) to think he can grow. Remember, Sam Bradford and Colt McCoy were both redshirt freshman when they began, Clausen this year was more akin to their redshirt years and while they both out-numbered him in their years he still is young. So, we'll see.

The rest I agree with 100%.