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redsfandan
11-16-2008, 05:03 PM
sorry but I didn't have time to organize all the stats. vote for your favorite.

redsfandan
11-16-2008, 06:18 PM
if you vote for someone else post who it would've been. since it's soooooo slow feel free to debate the merits of the candidates. mlb will announce their winner on monday 11/17.

Mitri
11-16-2008, 06:22 PM
Pujols, without thinking twice. Howard wasn't even the best player on his team, let alone his own league.

schmidty622
11-16-2008, 07:44 PM
Someone else... And I'll never tell!

GoGoWhiteSox
11-16-2008, 08:00 PM
I'll take Pujols.

Emin3mShady07
11-16-2008, 09:17 PM
Albert Pujols without a doubt. He had a 1.115 OPS and a massive 190 OPS+. The man was a machine this year. It is so fun to watch this guy destroy pitching, although I could do without him killing the reds :D. He is also a plus fielder on defense and I am drooling now just thinking about Pujols. He was so good it was unbelieveable.

ChatterRed
11-16-2008, 11:33 PM
Ramirez meant more to the Dodgers in half a season than any of those players for a full season. ManRam deserves it.

NorrisHopper30
11-17-2008, 01:25 AM
I accidentally click Howard, would've voted Pujols.

redsfandan
11-17-2008, 07:44 AM
Someone else... And I'll never tell!

:eek:

i voted for pujols although i was tempted to pick wright. i'm impressed by the season wright had at a position where you don't usually see those type of mvp like #'s. but pujols....

a career best 1.115 ops that led the NL*
190 adjusted ops (1st)
.653 slg % (1st*)
.462 on base % (2nd)
hit .357 (2nd*)
342 total bases (1st)
160 runs created (1st)
81 extra base hits (2nd),
career best 34 intentional walks (1st),
14.2 at bats/hr (3rd)
104 walks (2nd),
but only 54 k's
100 runs,
44 doubles (4th),
37 hr(4th),
116 rbi(4th)

throw in 7 sb and solid defense and the man was/is just incredible. and i expected him to miss time cuz of his elbow.
* see manny below

fwiw, the rest of my top 5 would be:
2) wright: top 5 in runs, rbi, walks, hits, total bases, runs created & sac flies; top 10 in doubles, hr, batting average, ops, on base %, adjusted ops, extra base hits. throw in 15 sb and solid defense.

3) utley: top 5 in runs, runs created, extra base hits, x hit by pitch; top 10 in doubles, hr, ops, slg %, hits, total bases, adjusted ops, sac flies, ibb. throw in 104 rbi, 14 sb and solid defense.

4) manny: batting average, slg %, and ops actually beat pujols and definitely helped LA but with only 53 games in the NL compared to 148 and subpar defense ... just like sabathia you can point out that he had no control over when he was traded but if he had been dealt in mid june instead of late july he would've had a better shot.

5) berkman: his september stats really hurt him (.171 batting avg and .632 ops in 76 abs) but he was a beast the 1st half of the season (79 runs, 22 hr, 73 rbi, 15 sb, .347 batting avg and 1.096 ops). still finished the season top 5 in battin avg, on base %, slg %, ops, runs, doubles, walks, adjusted ops, runs created, extra base hits, ibb, and top 10 in total bases & rbi.

justincredible
11-17-2008, 11:24 AM
Pull-Holtz

Orenda
11-17-2008, 12:00 PM
I went with Howard, the team around him is obviously stacked but he is a RBI machine and when it is time to perform he does. I know there is supposedly no such thing as being clutch in baseball, but Ryan Howard is pretty close. Over the last 2 years Howard has had 282 RBI's, thats only 16 fewer than the mighty Dunn has had over the last 3 years.

Emin3mShady07
11-17-2008, 02:03 PM
I went with Howard, the team around him is obviously stacked but he is a RBI machine and when it is time to perform he does. I know there is supposedly no such thing as being clutch in baseball, but Ryan Howard is pretty close. Over the last 2 years Howard has had 282 RBI's, thats only 16 fewer than the mighty Dunn has had over the last 3 years.

Howard also had a combination of Jimmy Rollins, Jayson Werth, Shane Victorino and Chase Utley hitting in front of him, If Dunn had that then who knows what kind of numbers he could have been producing. Ryan Howard has a Career line of .279/.380/.590 which is a monstrous OPS of .970 . With RISP howard has a line of .282/.427/.582 1.009 which is very good, but I would not call him "clutch" because those numers pretty much are indicitive of Ryan Howard as a hitter overall. His regular OPS is very good, so there is no reason to think his OPS with RISP would differ by any significant margin. Adam Dunn has a career line of .247/.381/.518 .899 so while he is a very productive hitter, he is not as good as Howard, so naturally Howard can be expected to amass more RBIs. Dunn has a line of .225/.416/.474 .890 with RISP so he is also very good in the clutch and those numbers are also right in line with Dunn's career averages. All in all, I would say that, yes, Ryan Howard is a better hitter than Adam Dunn and therefore more "clutch" , but the biggest difference is the hitters that Howard had in front of him. Because Howard hits in a very good lineup, he gets more opportunities to get RBIs and because he had more opportunities than Dunn he was able to get more RBIs than Dunn.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=dunnad01
http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=howarry01

757690
11-17-2008, 02:34 PM
Pujols wins. He had 18 of 32 first place votes.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081117&content_id=3681885&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Jack Burton
11-17-2008, 02:40 PM
Howard should win hands down, it's laughable if he doesn't.

Emin3mShady07
11-17-2008, 04:05 PM
Howard should win hands down, it's laughable if he doesn't.

How can you say that? Howard wasn't even the most productive hitter on his own team. Utley had a 135 OPS+ and Howard had a 124 OPS+ (Pujols's was a colossal 190). Pujols was the best player by far in the National League (And the Majors).

redsfandan
11-17-2008, 05:26 PM
howard receives alot of attention for the hrs and rbi, which are important, but his other stats just weren't as impressive. i mean even though he led all of baseball in both hrs and rbi his slg % was only 7th best in the NL. he also had career lows in both batting average and ops, had the 8th most outs by a player, wasn't in the top 10 in runs created, and wasn't in the top 15 in win shares by a NL player. he's still an elite slugger obviously (one of the best) but it wasn't his best season.

redsfandan
11-17-2008, 06:25 PM
i just wonder how many of the voters actually looked closer at what the players did.

2008 NL MVP Award Voting
Player, Club 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th Points
Albert Pujols, STL 18 10 2 1 1 369
Ryan Howard, PHI 12 8 6 1 1 2 1 308
Ryan Braun, MIL 2 3 5 5 2 2 3 2 1 139
Manny Ramirez, LAD 2 4 7 2 3 2 1 2 138
Lance Berkman, HOU 2 4 4 1 3 3 4 1 1 126
CC Sabathia, MIL 4 5 1 2 2 3 1 2 121
David Wright, NYM 2 1 4 3 3 2 5 2 1 115
Brad Lidge, PHI 2 2 4 3 2 3 1 2 104
Carlos Delgado, NYM 5 1 2 5 2 3 96
Aramis Ramirez, CHC 2 4 1 1 4 3 1 66
Hanley Ramirez, FLA 2 2 2 1 2 2 5 55
Chipper Jones, ATL 1 2 4 1 2 2 44
Geovany Soto, CHC 3 1 3 1 41
Johan Santana, NYM 1 1 1 1 2 1 30
Chase Utley, PHI 1 1 1 1 3 2 30
Ryan Ludwick, STL 1 2 3 1 17
Brandon Webb, ARI 2 1 14
Adrian Gonzalez, SD 1 1 1 4 13
Matt Holliday, COL 1 1 1 1 13
Prince Fielder, MIL 1 1 1 1 11
Derrek Lee, CHC 1 1 10
Carlos Beltran, NYM 1 1 1 10
Tim Lincecum, SF 1 1 2 9
Jose Reyes, NYM 1 3
Jose Valverde, HOU 1 3
Stephen Drew, ARI 1 2
Nate McLouth, PIT 1 1

Jack Burton
11-17-2008, 07:12 PM
Howard pretty much carried the offense the last month of the season, without him they more than likely miss the playoffs. Leads the majors in HR's and RBI's, helps get team into the playoffs, but doesn't get MVP? I'm pretty sure that hasn't happened much in MLB history.

Slyder
11-18-2008, 10:22 AM
Howard pretty much carried the offense the last month of the season, without him they more than likely miss the playoffs. Leads the majors in HR's and RBI's, helps get team into the playoffs, but doesn't get MVP? I'm pretty sure that hasn't happened much in MLB history.

Without Pujols the Cards aren't even in the conversation of the playoffs after APRIL. The fact they even had a chance in the 2nd half is testament to how valuable Pujols is with that team. Without Howard the Phils still would have a stacked lineup regardless. Thats my definition of MVP when you had 2 guys with good years.

redsfandan
11-21-2008, 07:12 AM
Howard pretty much carried the offense the last month of the season, without him they more than likely miss the playoffs. Leads the majors in HR's and RBI's, helps get team into the playoffs, but doesn't get MVP? I'm pretty sure that hasn't happened much in MLB history.

well it's not often that you have a player lead all of baseball in both hrs and rbi. but the last four times it happened the player didn't win the mvp: cecil fielder in both '90 & '91, arod in '02, and howard this year.

a player was awarded the mvp after accomplishing the achievement in '69 (harmon killebrew), '70 & '72 (both times by johnny bench), '77(george foster), and as recently as '90(kevin mitchell).

so maybe you could say that it means the voters won't automatically award the mvp and will look at more than just the traditional stats now.

howard still finished 2nd and it's not like pujols didn't have a strong year. if you want to look at awards that are really a joke look at the gold gloves.