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redsfandan
11-16-2008, 05:13 PM
who do you pick?

redsfandan
11-16-2008, 06:19 PM
if you vote for someone else post who it would've been. since it's soooooo slow feel free to debate the merits of the candidates. mlb will announce their winner on tuesday 11/18.

Mitri
11-16-2008, 06:30 PM
I voted for Quentin. His glove is a wash. His bat kept his team in the AL Central race when they shouldn't have been. The dude tore up AL pitching all season.

Sure, he was in the middle of a pretty hearty lineup, but if you took Quentin out of the equation that team doesn't sniff the playoffs.

berryluther
11-16-2008, 07:00 PM
My vote goes for Evan Longoria

GoGoWhiteSox
11-16-2008, 08:03 PM
Even though my White Sox managed to play most of the month of September without Quentin (and managed to win the division), they wouldn't have even sniffed contention without him in the lineup. Heck, he was leading the AL in homers until the second-to-last day of the season IIRC. He's my pick for AL MVP. I know I'll probably get ripped for saying that, but, oh well.

On the other hand, I wouldn't be upset if Pedroia or Youkilis won, though. They are equally deserving. I'll be happy if anybody not named Francisco Rodriguez won it.

Plus, Ian Kinsler as a candidate?

Emin3mShady07
11-16-2008, 09:00 PM
Milton Bradley was easily the most productive hitter in the AL judging by his League Leading .999 OPS and 163 OPS+ (Mark Texeira had a 180 OPS + and a 1.081 OPS, but he only played in 54 games with the angels) unfortunately for bradley, the MVP award is also contingent upon how many games a player contributes and Bradley only played in 122 games. Alex Rodriguez and Carlos Quentin both had an OPS of .965 and both were extremely valuable to their respective teams, but I honestly would give the award to alex rodriguez because he was a better fielder at third than quentin was in left Field and Rodriguez had a better Batting Runs Above Replacement (BP had A-ROD at 61 and TCQ at 56) because left fielders are usually better hitters than third basemen. Rodriguez also played in 8 more games than quentin. TCQ played in 130 and A-Rod played in 138.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/rodrial01.php
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/2008.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/q/quentca01.shtml
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/quentca01.php

Emin3mShady07
11-16-2008, 09:10 PM
Even though my White Sox managed to play most of the month of September without Quentin (and managed to win the division), they wouldn't have even sniffed contention without him in the lineup. Heck, he was leading the AL in homers until the second-to-last day of the season IIRC. He's my pick for AL MVP. I know I'll probably get ripped for saying that, but, oh well.

On the other hand, I wouldn't be upset if Pedroia or Youkilis won, though. They are equally deserving. I'll be happy if anybody not named Francisco Rodriguez won it.

Plus, Ian Kinsler as a candidate?

Quentin was the most productive hitter on that list by far, so I don't think you should get ripped for that. The only case for Pedroia is that his VORP was much higher than Quentin because he could play 2B which is typically an offensively challenged position. Pedroia was also a +15 second baseman according to fielding bible (I believe Quentin was +2), so Pedroia's defense was superior. However, IMO the MVP should be given to the most productive player and Quentin's offense was more than 10 runs better than Pedroia's so quentin was a more productive player.

757690
11-17-2008, 03:16 AM
I went with Youk, the Greek God of Walks who is Jewish, not Greek.

First, A-Rod did not lead his very talented team to the Playoffs, and he only played 138 games. That's two big strikes. You don't need to lead your team to the playoffs, but if your team is as talented and has the resources as the Yankees, than there are no excuses. If you only play in 85% of the teams games, it is difficult to say that you can be the most valuable or the most productive.

So that knocks out Quinten too.

Hamilton was not even the most productive player on his team, and Bradley is a ******, so that rules him out.

Of the rest, Youk clearly stands out. He also played third when Lowell was hurt and was better than anyone expected. That adds a lot of value in my opinion, moving to a different position to help the team and excelling at it.

He also is a local boy, which definitely influenced my opinion.

redsfandan
11-17-2008, 05:35 AM
.....
Plus, Ian Kinsler as a candidate?

well iirc the "official ballot" lets the voter pick their top 5 choices and there are a bunch of players that i could see having at least one or two 4th or 5th place votes (kinsler, arod, longoria, miguel cabrera, teix, bradley, f-rod, mauer, ...). i probably should've included more of them as choices just for the heck of it. the reason i did add kinsler was i knew he had stats similar to pedroia and actually beat pedroia in at least a few stats (hrs, sb, slg %, ops, ...) despite missing a month of the season. quentin had a really good year even though he missed a month too. so it was a judgement call. if i hadn't done this at the last second (and had more time to waste) i would've listed more playes and included stats but oh well. sorry :(



....
Hamilton was not even the most productive player on his team, and Bradley is a ******, so that rules him out. ...


wait a minute, we can disqualify a player cuz he's a ******? me thinks the official voters should've known that before they gave bonds all his hardware. ;)


for me the AL MVP is the hardest to pick. fortunately i have another day to decide.

i know the poll was thrown up kinda last second but since the vote so far IS so close i was curious what people thought of a runoff. just an idea.

Emin3mShady07
11-17-2008, 11:39 AM
I went with Youk, the Greek God of Walks who is Jewish, not Greek.

First, A-Rod did not lead his very talented team to the Playoffs, and he only played 138 games. That's two big strikes. You don't need to lead your team to the playoffs, but if your team is as talented and has the resources as the Yankees, than there are no excuses. If you only play in 85% of the teams games, it is difficult to say that you can be the most valuable or the most productive.

So that knocks out Quinten too.

Hamilton was not even the most productive player on his team, and Bradley is a ******, so that rules him out.

Of the rest, Youk clearly stands out. He also played third when Lowell was hurt and was better than anyone expected. That adds a lot of value in my opinion, moving to a different position to help the team and excelling at it.

He also is a local boy, which definitely influenced my opinion.

Youkilis only played in 145 games which is not that many more than A-Rod. Had Youkilis played in 152+ games then I think he would have a much bigger case because he would have played significantly more games. Youkilis had an OPS of .959 which is several points lower than both A-rod and Quentin, but not by any significant margin, however I agree with you because the Yankees did not make the playoffs, A-Rod won't get the MVP, although I believe that he deserves it and the MVP should go to the most productive player, not the best player on a playoff team.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/y/youklke01.shtml

757690
11-17-2008, 02:07 PM
wait a minute, we can disqualify a player cuz he's a ******? me thinks the official voters should've known that before they gave bonds all his hardware. ;)


I was kinda being silly, but what I meant is that he is very selfish player, always has been, which rules him out as MVP in my book. There is a reason why a player as talented as him has been dumped by so many teams, even after very successful seasons.

Bonds was a jerk, but he really did care about winning at least as much as his own records.

757690
11-17-2008, 02:12 PM
Youkilis only played in 145 games which is not that many more than A-Rod. Had Youkilis played in 152+ games then I think he would have a much bigger case because he would have played significantly more games. Youkilis had an OPS of .959 which is several points lower than both A-rod and Quentin, but not by any significant margin, however I agree with you because the Yankees did not make the playoffs, A-Rod won't get the MVP, although I believe that he deserves it and the MVP should go to the most productive player, not the best player on a playoff team.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/y/youklke01.shtml

Youk played in 90% of his team's games, while A-Rod in only 85%. it's only 5% but I think 90% is a good cut off.

Anyway, Youk was the most productive of these three according to Runs Created (basic formula - OBP X SLG x AB).

Youk - 119 runs
A-Rod - 114 runs
Q - 108 runs

Emin3mShady07
11-17-2008, 03:56 PM
Youk played in 90% of his team's games, while A-Rod in only 85%. it's only 5% but I think 90% is a good cut off.

Anyway, Youk was the most productive of these three according to Runs Created (basic formula - OBP X SLG x AB).

Youk - 119 runs
A-Rod - 114 runs
Q - 108 runs

OK so, I took the runs created thing a step farther and I used the 2002 version of runs created courtesy of wikipedia.org. http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=howarry01 This takes into account CS, GIDP, SB, Slug, and OBP as well as Sac bunts and Sac Flys and Ks.

Youk created 110.72 Runs
A-Rod created 107.01 Runs
TCQ created 101.073 Runs

So Youkilis did indeed create more runs than the other two, which is one of the most important things in determining the MVP in my opinion. OTOH, A-Rod created more runs per PA than Youk at .18015 while Youk was at .17829 (TCQ was at .17763). A-Rod was more productive per PA than Youk, so is 7 games enough to say that one guy deserves the MVP over the other? I wouldn't say so, but that's just me.

justincredible
11-18-2008, 03:02 PM
Pedroia wins it.

Emin3mShady07
11-18-2008, 03:16 PM
Pedroia wins it.

I just think that is wrong. A guy with a 122 OPS+ wins it over a plethora of players with a 140 OPS+. I know Pedroia had VORP in his favor, but isn't the MVP supposed to go to the most productive player?

Hands22
11-18-2008, 03:40 PM
I just think that is wrong. A guy with a 122 OPS+ wins it over a plethora of players with a 140 OPS+. I know Pedroia had VORP in his favor, but isn't the MVP supposed to go to the most productive player?

Since VORP is based on a players all around value and OPS+ is simply based on hitting, wouldn't VORP tell us the most productive player?

I don't really care, I was kind of rooting for Mauer to sneak in there but it seems everyone favored Morneau and the Twins not making the playoffs hurt his chances. Sizemore I think got the biggest shaft from voters not placing on anyone's top 5. The race was wide open this year and a case could've been made for anyone on the top of that list except K-Rod.

Jack Burton
11-18-2008, 03:41 PM
This is a joke, this is the nail in the coffin for all individual awards.

757690
11-18-2008, 03:43 PM
I just think that is wrong. A guy with a 122 OPS+ wins it over a plethora of players with a 140 OPS+. I know Pedroia had VORP in his favor, but isn't the MVP supposed to go to the most productive player?

No, because then it would be called the MPP, the Most Productive Player. The most productive player is an easy call, just look at the stats. The most valuable is more difficult, which is what makes the award more interesting and important.
And if you want to stick to stats, VORP tells you the most valuable player, it is in its name, Value Over Replacement Player, and Pedroia was a close third in the AL and the top among guys on playoff teams.

The Sporting News has its "Player of the Year" award, and that usually goes to the most productive.

You also are only including offensive stats. Considering how much more important 2B is than the corner positions, this is very justifiable.

schmidty622
11-18-2008, 03:53 PM
Who cares, these awards jumped the shark 20 years ago.

Emin3mShady07
11-18-2008, 07:15 PM
No, because then it would be called the MPP, the Most Productive Player. The most productive player is an easy call, just look at the stats. The most valuable is more difficult, which is what makes the award more interesting and important.
And if you want to stick to stats, VORP tells you the most valuable player, it is in its name, Value Over Replacement Player, and Pedroia was a close third in the AL and the top among guys on playoff teams.

The Sporting News has its "Player of the Year" award, and that usually goes to the most productive.

You also are only including offensive stats. Considering how much more important 2B is than the corner positions, this is very justifiable.

Good point. Pedroia I think was third in VORP behind A-Rod and Grady Sizemore this year in the American League, so the award going to Pedroia isn't the terrible thing I made it out to be a little earlier. I think the reason Pedroia was so close to A-Rod in VORP was that A-Rod had only 594 Plate Appearances and Pedroia had 726. If A-Rod didn't get hurt for those two weeks I think his VORP would have been at least 6-8 runs more, but A-Rod did get hurt, so I guess its ok that the award went to Pedroia, but I just wish that less emphasis was but on the importance of the MVP's team making the playoffs, something that had to have hurt A-Rod.

Jack Burton
11-19-2008, 09:08 AM
So they take into consideration a team making the playoffs in the AL but not the NL? It's a travesty that pedroia is considered an mvp in 2008 but Howard is not. 17 hr's & 80 rbi's? That's a half season for Howard. I'm aware they are in different leagues but this is just disgusting that someone with such weak numbers gets the mvp.

Emin3mShady07
11-19-2008, 11:25 AM
So they take into consideration a team making the playoffs in the AL but not the NL? It's a travesty that pedroia is considered an mvp in 2008 but Howard is not. 17 hr's & 80 rbi's? That's a half season for Howard. I'm aware they are in different leagues but this is just disgusting that someone with such weak numbers gets the mvp.

Well when VORP is this close, Pedroia at 59.8 Sizemore at 60.7 and A-Rod at 62.4, I can see the playoffs factoring into the decision. I personnally don't think the playoffs should matter when talking about the regular season MVP, but the bias is always going to be there. Albert Pujols had a VORP of 98.7, the next closest was Hanley Ramirez at 79.4. Ryan Howard was 29th in the NL with a VORP of 36.6. He was not even close to Pujols not to mention the Pujols is a plus defender and howard is certainly not. Also, Howard is nowhere near Pedroia in VORP, and basing an opinion off of something as circumstantial as RBIs is kinda foolish. Howard hit behind Jimmy Rollins and Chase Utley, good god, those guys get on base like crazy so Howard was presented with many more opportunities to amass RBIs than Pedroia was. Pedroia also spent most of his time hitting in the Number 2 hole which meant he was hitting after the 8-9-1 hitters where Howard was hitting after the 1-2-3 hitters and it is no secret that guys hit toward the bottom of the order because they are not as good as the guys at the top of the order, so Howard came up in many more situations with runners on and runners in scoring position. Pedroia had 320 Plate appearances with Runners on (198 with RISP) and Howard had 351 Plate Appearances with runners on (223 with RISP) so it is clear to see that he had more opportunities to amass RBI. Howard did amass more RBI per Plate appearance than Pedroia, but Pedroia played 2B and no other 2B was as productive as Pedroia was, so he was much more valuable at his position than Howard was at 1B.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=310735
http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=pedrodu01&year=2008
http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=howarry01&year=2008

texasdave
11-19-2008, 11:45 AM
forget vorp. if you had to win it all in 09 and salary was not a consideration would u trade alex rodriguez straight up for dustin pedroia? me neither.

Jack Burton
11-19-2008, 03:17 PM
Anyone could hit a double at Fenway, the dump.

Emin3mShady07
11-19-2008, 04:46 PM
forget vorp. if you had to win it all in 09 and salary was not a consideration would u trade alex rodriguez straight up for dustin pedroia? me neither.

Um no, because A-rod has a higher VORP than Dustin Pedroia. Would you trade Pedroia for Troy Glaus? A guy with a higher OPS?

redsfandan
11-22-2008, 06:15 AM
Even though my White Sox managed to play most of the month of September without Quentin (and managed to win the division), they wouldn't have even sniffed contention without him in the lineup. Heck, he was leading the AL in homers until the second-to-last day of the season IIRC. He's my pick for AL MVP. I know I'll probably get ripped for saying that, but, oh well.



I voted for Quentin. His glove is a wash. His bat kept his team in the AL Central race when they shouldn't have been. The dude tore up AL pitching all season.

Sure, he was in the middle of a pretty hearty lineup, but if you took Quentin out of the equation that team doesn't sniff the playoffs.

i meant to ask before but do ya think kenny williams is glad he traded for quentin a few months before the 2008 season? i think it's safe to say he won that deal.