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GAC
11-22-2008, 11:18 AM
Anyone happen to listen to his show this morning? I had to run some errands so I was listening in to his program in the car.

He was going off on rants about OSU, Tressel, and the program in general, and talking about how they are scared to play the Bearcats, the benchmark of an OSU fan is insecurity, and that the BCS needs to put OSU vs Bearcats in the Orange Bowl so that they can settle the matter of who is the best college football team /program in Ohio.

He was laughable that's for sure.

The Bearcats first need tp take care of business tonight vs Pittsburgh. And I'm pulling for them.

I'm a diehard Buckeye fan, but I also love to follow the Bearcats. I think Brian Kelly is a heck of a coach, and I hope he doesn't leave there.

But GFW first doesn't get his facts straight by saying that the only time OSU payed the Bearcats was back in '02, and that the Bucks should have lost that game. It was a very good game, but I guess his mind has blanked out that 37-7 Buckeye win in '06.

He taunted them over the lopsided win by USC, and then laughingly states that we got drilled by a PSU team that he obviously also feels is not any good. Gee, I thought that was a very close game. We probably should have won it if not for that Pryor fumble.

He then goes on to say that the Bucks are cowards because their season ends today, while the Bearcats still have games left with Syracuse and Hawaii.

I hate to break it to you Gary, but the entire Big 10 schedule ends today. OSU has no control over how many games they play or when the season ends. Most conferences end play either this weekend or next, with a few having conference championship games coming up. :rolleyes:

guttle11
11-22-2008, 11:31 AM
He then goes on to say that the Bucks are cowards because their season ends today, while the Bearcats still have games left with Syracuse and Hawaii.

The horror, the horror. Those poor 18-22 year olds. Won't somebody think of the children?

We should probably drop that game with USC next year to add UC. Wouldn't want to be cowards, you know.

GAC
11-22-2008, 12:02 PM
I would rather see OSU play the Bearcats then Division 1-AA schools like Youngstown State.

dougdirt
11-22-2008, 12:18 PM
Glad I didn't have to hear that one. I follow two teams. UC and OSU. I don't think OSU is scared to play them, I mean lets be honest, they did go out to USC this year and Texas a few years ago and as much as I love UC and where they are going and what they have done, they aren't on the USC or Texas level.

guttle11
11-22-2008, 12:24 PM
I would rather see OSU play the Bearcats then Division 1-AA schools like Youngstown State.

As would many people, but that's not how college football works. Think UC fans would rather play OSU than EKU? UC wouldn't.

UC and OSU aren't rivals, and no matter how much talk radio hacks and callers gripe, they have no history. OSU is not afraid to play anyone, and will play UC on occasion. Since football schedules are often set a decade in advance, a home and home wouldn't happen for a while. The teams will play in 2012, to finish out the deal that began in 2002.

If UC can remain viable for an extended period, you'd have to believe OSU would be open to another deal (perhaps one at PBS, one at OSU) in a decade or so, after the deals with Miami, Cal, Tennessee, and I think VT.

GoReds33
11-22-2008, 12:33 PM
I can see where he is coming from. OSU did pay UC a huge amount of money (from a UC perspective) to not have to play here in Cincinnati. Still, I don't think they're cowards. They have the market cornered on prospects and fans in the state of Ohio. If they lost to an in-state team, those prospects and fans could start to turn.

Hap
11-23-2008, 10:34 AM
Is there any chance that his ratings are down and he only said that as a stunt to get people to talk about his show?

If he really, truly, honestly thinks that the UC defense could stop Wells and Pryor then he is a lunatic.

Chip R
11-23-2008, 10:35 AM
Is there any chance that his ratings are down and he only said that as a stunt to get people to talk about his show?


No one from WLW would ever do that.

Hap
11-23-2008, 10:39 AM
No one from WLW would ever do that.

Especially not Tracy Jones or Willie Cunningham.

SeeinRed
11-23-2008, 11:33 AM
Is there any chance that his ratings are down and he only said that as a stunt to get people to talk about his show?

If he really, truly, honestly thinks that the UC defense could stop Wells and Pryor then he is a lunatic.

This is exactly what Gary is talking about. If you really think OSU would run all over UC then you are mistaken. I'll tell you right now it would be a close game. I'm not going to say UC would definately win, but I feel like this is the first time that OSU fans can't say OSU would definately win. UC would be the underdogs, but by no means is OSU that much better than UC.

And yes, UC's defense does have the ability to stop Wells and Pryor.

paintmered
11-23-2008, 12:06 PM
And yes, UC's defense does have the ability to stop Wells and Pryor.

They stopped Pat White, Noel Devine, and LaSean McCoy. All are comparable talents to Wells and Pryor IMO.

That said, I think if UC and OSU were to play today at a neutral site, OSU wins 6-7 times out of 10. I also don't think UC needs to make OSU a rival or even play them to be a successful program.

I still haven't heard the reason why Ohio State backed out of the 2012 game in Cincinnati. At the surface, it smacks of what happened in basketball a few years ago. They avoided UC until OSU had their strongest team in decades and UC had their weakest in decades to finally play. All it did was reinforce the notion that Greg Oden is a better basketball player than Conner Barwin.

NorrisHopper30
11-23-2008, 01:39 PM
The 'Cats defense is very experienced and impressive and I doubt Pryor would pick it apart. Donald Brown and LeSean McCoy haven't completely demolished them, so i'm sure Beanie wouldn't run all over either.

I honestly think UC v OSU would be a good game this year.

LoganBuck
11-23-2008, 02:06 PM
They stopped Pat White, Noel Devine, and LaSean McCoy. All are comparable talents to Wells and Pryor IMO.

That said, I think if UC and OSU were to play today at a neutral site, OSU wins 6-7 times out of 10. I also don't think UC needs to make OSU a rival or even play them to be a successful program.

I still haven't heard the reason why Ohio State backed out of the 2012 game in Cincinnati. At the surface, it smacks of what happened in basketball a few years ago. They avoided UC until OSU had their strongest team in decades and UC had their weakest in decades to finally play. All it did was reinforce the notion that Greg Oden is a better basketball player than Conner Barwin.

All of those players are 30lbs less then Chris Wells and Terrele Pryor. Beanie will be healthy during the bowl game. I don't see UC having the ability to stop him.

I think UC would probably win 1 out of 10, the Big East is down this year. I think UC is likely the fourth or fifth best team in the Big Ten this year.

Ohio State didn't back out of the 2012 game. UC and Ohio State can each make more money by the game being in Columbus. UC fans keep repeating this, but it comes down to the dollars. UC needs cash, and lots of it. Nippert seats ~35,000, PBS seats ~65,000, Ohio Stadium seats ~105,000. After Mike Brown gets his cut PBS isn't nearly as profitable as it should be.

SeeinRed
11-23-2008, 02:08 PM
As far as OSU being coward, I just think they are being smart. They aren't proving they aren't cowards though by playing USC. All they are doing is limiting the damage of their schedule. A loss to USC doesn't look near as bad as a loss to UC, nor does a win over UC look near as good as a win over USC. There is lower risk and a higher reward for playing USC. So yeah, they are afraid of losing to UC in a sense. That doesn't mean it wasn't a very smart move to limit your chances of a devestating loss when you have a program that can play the "upper tier" schools. UC fans shouldn't fool themselves into thinking they are looked at the same as an OSU yet. They have a ways to go before that. OSU fans shouldn't assume that means they always have the better team either. They just have a longer track record of success.

UC fans are getting caught in the hype, but OSU fans assume they always have a better team because they are used to having the better team. That is why there is even a debate. In reality, UC is a much better football team than it has ever been, and OSU is in a bit of a down year. OSU will get better, but the question is wether or not UC will. Will this be the top of the mountain, or is UC still climbing? The only way to find out is to see what happens in the coming years.

SeeinRed
11-23-2008, 02:25 PM
All of those players are 30lbs less then Chris Wells. He will be healthy during the bowl game. I don't see UC having the ability to stop him.

I think UC would probably win 1 out of 10, the Big East is down this year. I think UC is likely the fourth or fifth best team in the Big Ten this year.

Ohio State didn't back out of the 2012 game. UC and Ohio State can each make more money by the game being in Columbus. UC fans keep repeating this, but it comes down to the dollars. UC needs cash, and lots of it. Nippert seats ~35,000, PBS seats ~65,000, Ohio Stadium seats ~105,000. After Mike Brown gets his cut PBS isn't nearly as profitable as it should be.

The defensive line of UC is also very athletic and I just don't see OSU keeping them from Pryor. If UC turned it into a one dimentional game, Wells would have a very hard time against them. Then there is the question of OSU stopping the UC offense. I also think UC has better special teams as well. I don't see it happening as OSU fans plan. I'm not saying UC is hands down the best team, but OSU does not win 9 out of 10. No way, no how. The Big Ten is also in a down year and nowhere near as good as some fans believe.

OSU may not have backed out of the game, but they strong armed UC into giving up homefield advantage. You can't tell me that it was a joint decision. There is no way UC would rather travel to Columbus. It was either take the money and play where OSU wants, or not play at all.

I also don't see how, even if UC would be 4 or 5 in the Big Ten OSU would beat them 9 out of ten times. I would put UC at 3 or 4. OSU doesn't beat the 3/4 9 out of 10 times this year on a neutral field. My opinion is not un-biased, but nowhere near as unrealistic as OSU winning 9 out of 10 times. OSU just isn't that good this year.

WMR
11-23-2008, 02:26 PM
All of those players are 30lbs less then Chris Wells and Terrele Pryor. Beanie will be healthy during the bowl game. I don't see UC having the ability to stop him.

I think UC would probably win 1 out of 10, the Big East is down this year. I think UC is likely the fourth or fifth best team in the Big Ten this year.

Ohio State didn't back out of the 2012 game. UC and Ohio State can each make more money by the game being in Columbus. UC fans keep repeating this, but it comes down to the dollars. UC needs cash, and lots of it. Nippert seats ~35,000, PBS seats ~65,000, Ohio Stadium seats ~105,000. After Mike Brown gets his cut PBS isn't nearly as profitable as it should be.

Whoa, what five teams from the Big 10 are better than UC? I gotta read this one.

Cyclone792
11-23-2008, 03:02 PM
All of those players are 30lbs less then Chris Wells and Terrele Pryor. Beanie will be healthy during the bowl game. I don't see UC having the ability to stop him.

I think UC would probably win 1 out of 10, the Big East is down this year. I think UC is likely the fourth or fifth best team in the Big Ten this year.

Ohio State didn't back out of the 2012 game. UC and Ohio State can each make more money by the game being in Columbus. UC fans keep repeating this, but it comes down to the dollars. UC needs cash, and lots of it. Nippert seats ~35,000, PBS seats ~65,000, Ohio Stadium seats ~105,000. After Mike Brown gets his cut PBS isn't nearly as profitable as it should be.

Hate to say it, LB, but that's heavily biased and not very objective at all.

In fact, the true colors show up on the basketball schedule. Because while the excuse can be made that non-conference schedules are made years in advance in football, there are PLENTY of non-conference games available in hoops. And like paint said, the only time OSU had any interest in UC on the court is when OSU had their strongest team in decades and UC had their weakest team in decades.

That is sad right there.

guttle11
11-23-2008, 03:10 PM
UC is a good team, but they aren't at OSU's level. Sure, UC's defense could slow OSU offense a bit, but I don't think UC could score more than 14 points on OSU's defense.

If the two teams were to play...I'd say 27-13 OSU. Not a blowout, but a convincing win. OSU just has more really good players.

Is UC better than MSU or Northwestern? I don't know. If they are, it's not by much...and OSU beat each of those teams soundly on the road.

*BaseClogger*
11-23-2008, 03:22 PM
This thread has potential... :)

Redlegs23
11-23-2008, 04:01 PM
People are saying that OSU isn't scared because they went to Texas and to USC to play, but I'm sorry losing at traditional powerhouse schools like Texas and USC doesn't hurt your program nearly as bad as losing to an in state school with little football reputation. Big difference IMO.

If these teams were to play on a neutral field I would probably put my money on OSU, but I wouldn't feel comfortable with it. Saying OSU wins 9 out of 10 seems a little crazy to me. UC is tough against the run, and they have potential to make OSU throw more than they would like, just as they did with Pitt and WVU. I don't see how Pryor and Beanie outweighing White and Devine makes that much of a difference. UC held White and Devine to under 100 yards rushing, first team that's done that to WVU since Pat White has been their qb (and I think it's been even longer). Plus Pat White just set the record for most rushing yards from a QB in NCAA history...the guy is no slouch. I think OSU is a better team this year, but not by much. It would be a good game to watch.

Highlifeman21
11-23-2008, 04:19 PM
All of those players are 30lbs less then Chris Wells and Terrele Pryor. Beanie will be healthy during the bowl game. I don't see UC having the ability to stop him.

I think UC would probably win 1 out of 10, the Big East is down this year. I think UC is likely the fourth or fifth best team in the Big Ten this year.

Ohio State didn't back out of the 2012 game. UC and Ohio State can each make more money by the game being in Columbus. UC fans keep repeating this, but it comes down to the dollars. UC needs cash, and lots of it. Nippert seats ~35,000, PBS seats ~65,000, Ohio Stadium seats ~105,000. After Mike Brown gets his cut PBS isn't nearly as profitable as it should be.

UC vs tOSU would be a good game, but UC IMO is better than every other team in the Big 11 (and that includes MSU and PSU).

To say that UC is likely the 4th or 5th best team in the Big 11 this year is very laughable, and definitely the product of drinking too much Big 11 kool aid.

But continue on with your pro-tOSU agenda...

LoganBuck
11-23-2008, 04:37 PM
Hate to say it, LB, but that's heavily biased and not very objective at all.

In fact, the true colors show up on the basketball schedule. Because while the excuse can be made that non-conference schedules are made years in advance in football, there are PLENTY of non-conference games available in hoops. And like paint said, the only time OSU had any interest in UC on the court is when OSU had their strongest team in decades and UC had their weakest team in decades.

That is sad right there.

So what would be objective? Saying that a team that has played decent ball, in a down conference, would be Ohio State's equal? I am sorry I just don't see it. You don't see me on here being a blow hard about how great Ohio State is. I am an OSU alum, and an unabashed supporter of UC basketball, and a fan of UC football (when OSU isn't on). Frankly I could care less about OSU basketball, I wish they would play UC, because I can actually follow UC, because they broadcast on a station with more power than a walkie talkie. I love Mick, and am really hopeful about this season. Too bad they lost the frosh PG, they needed him.

guttle11
11-23-2008, 04:39 PM
If you think UC is better than Penn State but worse than Ohio State...I don't know what to say. PSU and OSU look to be each other's equal.

There's a lot of UC kool-aid drinking going on here, it's not a one way street. There's no way UC beats Ohio State 40% of the time. None. UC is not a top ten team, and OSU states dominates teams below top ten caliber with little exception. When's the last time OSU lost to a team like UConn? 2004?

Don't focus on OSU offense against UC's defense. Find for me where UCs offense scores on OSU. That is the difference. OSU would score 20 on UC. Would UC score 20 on OSU?

Highly, highly doubtful.

LoganBuck
11-23-2008, 04:48 PM
People are saying that OSU isn't scared because they went to Texas and to USC to play, but I'm sorry losing at traditional powerhouse schools like Texas and USC doesn't hurt your program nearly as bad as losing to an in state school with little football reputation. Big difference IMO.

If these teams were to play on a neutral field I would probably put my money on OSU, but I wouldn't feel comfortable with it. Saying OSU wins 9 out of 10 seems a little crazy to me. UC is tough against the run, and they have potential to make OSU throw more than they would like, just as they did with Pitt and WVU. I don't see how Pryor and Beanie outweighing White and Devine makes that much of a difference. UC held White and Devine to under 100 yards rushing, first team that's done that to WVU since Pat White has been their qb (and I think it's been even longer). Plus Pat White just set the record for most rushing yards from a QB in NCAA history...the guy is no slouch. I think OSU is a better team this year, but not by much. It would be a good game to watch.

Chris Wells and Terrele Pryor are a whole different type of athlete then White and Devine. Power running versus finesse. Chris Wells has the ability to stiff arm the UC defensive lineman. I love Conner Barwin, but IMO, he is the only one Ohio State would be worried about, Byrd included. Lots of teams have tried to make OSU one dimensional since Pryor took the helm. No one has stopped them yet. If Pryor doesn't fumble against PSU, they are playing in the Rose Bowl.

I admit the offensive line isn't very good, but I just don't think UC fans are being realistic.

If UC catches Florida State in the Orange Bowl you will see what I mean. They just don't match up against top 10 talent, and there offensive scheme isn't something that will allow them to disguise that fact. They have a good plan, but aren't a crazy spread team like Boise State. Florida State is not a top ten team, but they have the talent. They will run right through UC.

Cyclone792
11-23-2008, 05:09 PM
So what would be objective? Saying that a team that has played decent ball, in a down conference, would be Ohio State's equal? I am sorry I just don't see it.

So the Big East is a down conference but the Big Ten isn't? This is what's amazing here.

Let's go through the Big 10 team by team and see who the hell they've actually beat in their non-conference that's worth a crap:

Penn State blew out Oregon State - a good mark for the conference
Ohio State was blown out by USC
Michigan State lost at Cal and beat Notre Dame
Northwestern didn't play any non-conference teams worth a crap; their best win was against mighty Duke
Iowa lost at Pitt
Wisconsin didn't play any non-conference teams worth a crap; their best win was either Fresno State or that squeaker against Cal Poly
Minnesota didn't play any non-conference teams worth a crap; their best win was probably Northern Illinois
Illinois lost at Missouri
Purdue lost to Oregon, but did beat Central Michigan
Indiana was blown out by Ball State
Michigan lost to Utah and to Notre Dame

Where's the Big Ten power at? Seriously? I see one very nice non-conference win - Penn State blowing out Oregon State. That's it. Their second and third best non-conference wins this year were probably Central Michigan and Notre Dame.

I know the Big East didn't beat many teams in their non-conference either; UC's game at Oklahoma was by far the toughest test for the Big East. Pitt beat Iowa and Notre Dame and South Florida beat Kansas, which are probably the three best non-conference wins.

The Big East is down, there's no denying that. They're the weakest of the six power conferences this year. But contrary to what many OSU fans might believe, the Big Ten isn't much better. The Big Ten is much closer to the Big East in quality than they are to the Big 12 or SEC.

But if you're going to sit there and claim that UC is a decent ballclub in a down conference, then you better make that same claim about Ohio State. When it all comes down to it, with the exception of Penn State, Ohio State played in a conference once again this year who beat pretty much nobody in their non-conference schedule.

paintmered
11-23-2008, 05:23 PM
Ohio State didn't back out of the 2012 game. UC and Ohio State can each make more money by the game being in Columbus. UC fans keep repeating this, but it comes down to the dollars. UC needs cash, and lots of it. Nippert seats ~35,000, PBS seats ~65,000, Ohio Stadium seats ~105,000. After Mike Brown gets his cut PBS isn't nearly as profitable as it should be.

Ohio State absolutely backed out of the game. It was UC who approached them about still playing the game in Columbus.

Caveat Emperor
11-23-2008, 05:31 PM
Michigan also lost to Toledo, Cyc.

Ohio State came within a hair of crapping the bed against Ohio University.

I think Ohio State is a better team than Cincinnati, but it isn't nearly by as much as Buckeye fans want to pretend. And it's sheer lunacy to say that Cincinnati would be the 5th best team in the Big 10. The only two teams I'd take over UC at a neutral location would be Penn State and Ohio State. For any other Big 11 teams, I'd need points before I bet.

It's all academic, though.

cincrazy
11-23-2008, 07:26 PM
Ohio State would manhandle the Bearcats. I honestly believe that. I'm taking nothing away from UC, and I'm rooting for them. But it's two different levels. To state that OSU is "afraid" of UC is absurd. What, afraid of losing fans to them? Afraid of UC taking the throne as the top team in the state? Look, I like UC, and I'm rooting for them. But they were irrelevant before Kelly came to town. They seat 35,000 fans in their stadium, and have never had any sustained big time success. To state that the Buckeyes are afraid of them is going WAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY over the top.

However, UC is clearly better than every team in the Big 10 not named Penn State or Ohio State. Both conference's are putrid, and I don't see how comparing them has anything to do with how competive Cincy would be in a game against one of the big boys. I think they could keep it close for a while, but in the end, OSU's depth, size, and overall better talent would just wear them down.

GAC
11-24-2008, 07:33 AM
Let's go through the Big 10 team by team and see who the hell they've actually beat in their non-conference that's worth a crap

True in a sense Cyclone; but anymore a majority of the big clubs (conferences) fill there non-conference games vs over matched smaller schools. So lets just not pick on the Big 10. And in the past I've personally expressed my opposition to it. I can understand the reasoning as to why an OSU will put a couple of these smaller schools on their schedule at the beginning of the season - gives them recognition and a shot a playing a more recognized program, and throws money at that school.

But it's gotten too ridiculous anymore IMO. There is no sound reason, IMO, for a Division 1-A school to be playing Division 1-AA schools. I just personally disagree with it regardless of the reasoning put out there.


Penn State blew out Oregon State - a good mark for the conference

Yes it was.


Ohio State was blown out by USC

A majority of OSU fans predicted this. USC was the #1 team, at that time, in the nation. And OSU, which was in for an uphill battle to begin with, had the odds further stacked against them when their running game took a huge hit with no Beanie Wells. No, they still would have lost IMO; but I don't think it would have been as big a blowout.


Michigan State lost at Cal

Cal is not a bad program. 7-4 overall. They beat Oregon, and are 6-0 at home this year.


Iowa lost at Pitt

Yep. By one point 21-20. But Pitt is no slouch either.


Northwestern didn't play any non-conference teams worth a crap....Minnesota didn't play any non-conference teams worth a crap

True.


Wisconsin didn't play any non-conference teams worth a crap

Two of their 4 opponents (Akron and Marshall) were on the Bearcat's schedule[/quote]


Illinois lost at Missouri

Who is #12 in the nation, and leading the Big 12 North.


Purdue lost to Oregon

Another quality program who was ranked #16 in the nation, and the game went into OT too.


Indiana was blown out by Ball State

When has Indiana's football program ever been a serious threat? Ball State is 11-0 and #15.


Michigan lost to Utah

They also lost to Toledo. :lol:

But they lost to Utah, who is now ranked #8 by 2 pts 25-23. Everyone knows that this was going to be a down year for Michigan, and one of rebuilding/restocking the program.

But those examples above simply show that Big 10 teams did play several quality non-conference opponents. I'm certainly not going to complain about that, regardless that they lost them.


Where's the Big Ten power at?

Where's the Big East power at?

Other then their game vs the Sooners (which they got manhandled big time 52-26), who were the Bearcats non-conference games against?

Division-1AA Ohio Valley Eastern Kentucky (8-3).
Miami (OH) MAC (2-9)
Akron MAC (5-6) gave the Bearcats a helluva a game too
Marshall Conf. USA (4-7)
Hawaii WAC (6-5)

And their other loss, in which they got beat pretty handily 40-16, was against Connecticut.


The Big East is down, there's no denying that. They're the weakest of the six power conferences this year. But contrary to what many OSU fans might believe, the Big Ten isn't much better. The Big Ten is much closer to the Big East in quality than they are to the Big 12 or SEC.

I disagree with that assessment. No, the Big 10 is not on the level of the Big 12 and SEC. The Big 10 needs to rethink their approach to the game. Though I don't see the SEC as dominant overall, like they have been.

The Big 12 has 5 teams in the top 25 (3 in the top 10)
The SEC has 4 teams in the top 25 (2 in the top 10... #1 and #2 respectively)
The Big 10 has 4 teams in the top 25 (2 in the top 10)
The Big East has 1 team in the top 25.... the Bearcats at #16.

Cyclone792
11-24-2008, 08:06 AM
True in a sense Cyclone; but anymore a majority of the big clubs (conferences) fill there non-conference games vs over matched smaller schools. So lets just not pick on the Big 10. And in the past I've personally expressed my opposition to it. I can understand the reasoning as to why an OSU will put a couple of these smaller schools on their schedule at the beginning of the season - gives them recognition and a shot a playing a more recognized program, and throws money at that school.

But it's gotten too ridiculous anymore IMO. There is no sound reason, IMO, for a Division 1-A school to be playing Division 1-AA schools. I just personally disagree with it regardless of the reasoning put out there.

I agree it's gotten absurd.


Where's the Big East power at?

Other then their game vs the Sooners (which they got manhandled big time 52-26), who were the Bearcats non-conference games against?

Division-1AA Ohio Valley Eastern Kentucky (8-3).
Miami (OH) MAC (2-9)
Akron MAC (5-6) gave the Bearcats a helluva a game too
Marshall Conf. USA (4-7)
Hawaii WAC (6-5)

And their other loss, in which they got beat pretty handily 40-16, was against Connecticut.

You've missed the point of my argument.

Listen, I'm not stating that UC would roll Ohio State; they wouldn't. What I'm saying is that it'd be a pretty darn entertaining game and the notion that Ohio State would roll UC is unrealistic and biased. If UC and Ohio State played each other 100 times, who would win more? Most likely Ohio State, I'm sure. But would Ohio State win 90 of those games? Hardly.

CE said it best: Ohio State is the better team, but it's nowhere near to the level that Buckeye fans want to pretend it is.


I disagree with that assessment. No, the Big 10 is not on the level of the Big 12 and SEC. The Big 10 needs to rethink their approach to the game. Though I don't see the SEC as dominant overall, like they have been.

I just checked the computer rankings that are in the BCS, and two of the three that have conference ratings have the Big East ranked higher than the Big Ten as a conference. So either the computer rankings are full of it, or the strength of the Big Ten conference is nothing more than a mere figment of people's imaginations.

I'm not even claiming that the Big East is greater than the Big Ten; I'm merely claiming that the difference between the Big Ten and the Big East isn't all that much. And yes, the Big Ten is much closer to the Big East than they are the Big 12 and the SEC.

FWIW, and this will ruffle some feathers ... when you combine the two major sports - football and basketball - the Big Ten IS the weakest of the six power conferences.

GoReds33
11-24-2008, 08:57 AM
I think that on the basis of this year, I would take Tony Pike over Tyrell Pryor.

SeeinRed
11-24-2008, 09:03 AM
Listen, I'm not stating that UC would roll Ohio State; they wouldn't. What I'm saying is that it'd be a pretty darn entertaining game and the notion that Ohio State would roll UC is unrealistic and biased. If UC and Ohio State played each other 100 times, who would win more? Most likely Ohio State, I'm sure. But would Ohio State win 90 of those games? Hardly.

CE said it best: Ohio State is the better team, but it's nowhere near to the level that Buckeye fans want to pretend it is.

I just checked the computer rankings that are in the BCS, and two of the three that have conference ratings have the Big East ranked higher than the Big Ten as a conference. So either the computer rankings are full of it, or the strength of the Big Ten conference is nothing more than a mere figment of people's imaginations.

I'm not even claiming that the Big East is greater than the Big Ten; I'm merely claiming that the difference between the Big Ten and the Big East isn't all that much. And yes, the Big Ten is much closer to the Big East than they are the Big 12 and the SEC.

FWIW, and this will ruffle some feathers ... when you combine the two major sports - football and basketball - the Big Ten IS the weakest of the six power conferences.


I think this is the argument most of us are trying to make in a nutshell. OSU is not head and shoulders better than UC. UC would still be the underdog, but OSU fans brushing it off like UC fans are dreaming is absurd.

Redlegs23
11-24-2008, 06:49 PM
Agree with that assessment SeeinRed. I think OSU is the better team, but not by much.

Redlegs23
11-24-2008, 07:03 PM
To state that OSU is "afraid" of UC is absurd. What, afraid of losing fans to them? Afraid of UC taking the throne as the top team in the state?

Afraid of losing fans? Not a chance, OSU has plenty of fans to spare. Afraid of UC taking the throne as the top team in the state? Doubtful.

Afraid of losing to little brother with no football reputation, potentially losing recruits to little brother, and putting a non-conference loss on their schedule? Yes.

UC is quickly becoming a trendy school for recruits to look at, similar to how OSU was in basketball when they got Thad. I can't remember OSU's previous coach for the life of me, but do you think Oden, Conley, Cook, etc. would have considered going there before Thad came to town? OSU's basketball was coming off some years of mediocrity, Thad came in and started winning some games, put OSU basketball in the national spotlight and it quickly became a school that big time recruits started to consider that they wouldn't have considered before. On a little lesser scale I think this can be compared to UC football. UC football has less history than OSU basketball did, but the other things are very similar. An excitable new coach comes to town, wins some big games, gets UC football on ESPN multiple times against ranked opponents and wins, and gets UC football a ton of exposure. Suddenly Ohio kids have another in-state option to consider if they want to play BCS football and play on a big stage. Cincinnati is a very talent rich area for high school football, and I don't think there's any way Tressel and Co. want to risk losing to Cincy and have even one recruit think about going to UC over OSU. UC pulled in a couple recruits this past year that had offers from WVU, Michigan, Nebraska, Va. Tech. and Purdue, this wouldn't have happened in the past, and potentially going to a BCS bowl will only help UC with recruiting, especially hometown kids who might be considering either staying home or going up the road to OSU.



Look, I like UC, and I'm rooting for them. But they were irrelevant before Kelly came to town.

And Kelly is here now, so your statement is irrelevant.

guttle11
11-24-2008, 07:14 PM
Ohio State isn't afraid of losing recruits to UC. If anything, and I highly doubt this is the case, they're afraid of getting beaten by UC, and losing recruits to Florida, USC, Michigan... in the process.

paintmered
11-24-2008, 07:23 PM
Ohio State isn't afraid of losing recruits to UC. If anything, and I highly doubt this is the case, they're afraid of getting beaten by UC, and losing recruits to Florida, USC, Michigan... in the process.

Then why back out of the game? Don't say it's about money, because if that was the case, then Ohio State would never have agreed to play in Cincinnati in the first place.

guttle11
11-24-2008, 08:03 PM
Then why back out of the game? Don't say it's about money, because if that was the case, then Ohio State would never have agreed to play in Cincinnati in the first place.

They agreed to a deal with Cal, and the 2012 game is away. They didn't want to play two OOC away games for monetary reasons. The football program supports the largest athletic program in the country. They need 7-8 home games a year to help fund the non-revenue generating sports.

When the two schools agreed on a deal that moved the game to Columbus, with UC being compensated, OSU gladly kept the game. It's what works out best for both parties. As someone already stated, UC will likely make a better profit playing in Columbus than at PBS, which will help UC financially support itself.

They are not afraid to play UC. Money is the reason.

Cyclone792
11-24-2008, 08:31 PM
They agreed to a deal with Cal, and the 2012 game is away. They didn't want to play two OOC away games for monetary reasons.

Wrong.

The game against Cal is in Columbus on September 15, 2012. The UC game is in Columbus on September 8, 2012. Ohio State's other two non-conference games are also at home.

OSU future road non-conference games ...

2009: Zero
2010: Zero
2011: @ Miami (FL)
2012: Zero

UC will play four road non-conference games this season alone. That's three more than Ohio State will play in the next four years combined. That is truly pathetic.


They are not afraid to play UC. Money is the reason.

Or maybe it's because they just don't like going on the road in non-conference games.

MWM
11-24-2008, 08:53 PM
There are a lot of people around here not at all objective about OSU, and it's definitely not just the Buckeye fans.

Put me in the camp that thinks the Buckeyes of the last half of the season would handle UC pretty easily. Not saying it would be a blowout, but I think it would be decisive. And I think it's probably closer to 7-8 out of 10. If that makes me bias, unobjective, or whatever else, so be it. I'm usually not at all unrealistic about the teams I follow, so I would have no problem comparing them unfavorably to other teams if that's the way it is. And while I don't follow UC football, I always root for the local teams, so I would love UC to be in the BCS.

And if someone thinks the current version of OSU is the same team that struggled with Ohio early in the season, then I would suggest it's them not being objective. It's not the same team with a healthy Beanie and an experienced Pryor.

LoganBuck
11-24-2008, 09:17 PM
I think that on the basis of this year, I would take Tony Pike over Tyrell Pryor.

Okie-dokie

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Passing
YEAR TEAM CMP ATT PCT YDS AVG TD LNG INT RAT
Pike 2008 CIN 142 226 62.8 1788 7.9 15 67 4 147.66
Pryor 2008 OSU 95 152 62.5 1245 8.2 12 56 4 152.09

Rushing Stats Pike
YEAR TEAM ATT YDS AVG LNG TD FD FUM LOST
2007 CIN 7 75 10.7 35 0 0 0 0
2008 CIN 37 41 1.1 14 1 0 0 0

Pryor
2008 OHST 124 553 4.5 38 6 0 0 0

LoganBuck
11-24-2008, 09:31 PM
Wrong.

The game against Cal is in Columbus on September 15, 2012. The UC game is in Columbus on September 8, 2012. Ohio State's other two non-conference games are also at home.

OSU future road non-conference games ...

2009: Zero
2010: Zero
2011: @ Miami (FL)
2012: Zero

UC will play four road non-conference games this season alone. That's three more than Ohio State will play in the next four years combined. That is truly pathetic.



Or maybe it's because they just don't like going on the road in non-conference games.

OSU has a neutral site game against Toledo in Cleveland in 2009.

UC needs the cash, end of story. UC fans are totally forgetting what happened to their Athletic Department Treasury. The Huggins Buyout and Donor Fallout, the drop in attendance, and the necessary demands of Brian Kelly, make them a cash strapped operation. Ohio State could easily tell UC to take a hike, why didn't they? Because UC wants the money!!! UC has to play OOC road games to stay afloat. That is what is pathetic. If you want to sit at the big boy table, play your games at PBS. Until then be glad you can take the hand me down scraps from Ohio State.

Cyclone792
11-24-2008, 09:43 PM
UC has to play OOC road games to stay afloat. That is what is pathetic. If you want to sit at the big boy table, play your games at PBS. Until then be glad you can take the hand me down scraps from Ohio State.

Next time I hear somebody say they don't like Ohio State because of their fans, I'll know why after reading those four sentences above.

paintmered
11-24-2008, 09:50 PM
OSU has a neutral site game against Toledo in Cleveland in 2009.

UC needs the cash, end of story. UC fans are totally forgetting what happened to their Athletic Department Treasury. The Huggins Buyout and Donor Fallout, the drop in attendance, and the necessary demands of Brian Kelly, make them a cash strapped operation. Ohio State could easily tell UC to take a hike, why didn't they? Because UC wants the money!!! UC has to play OOC road games to stay afloat. That is what is pathetic. If you want to sit at the big boy table, play your games at PBS. Until then be glad you can take the hand me down scraps from Ohio State.

"I'll play anybody anywhere anyplace. My philosophy has always been that we need to play Ohio State. If they don't want to play here, I'll play them in a parking lot in Xenia." - Brian Kelly

Highlifeman21
11-24-2008, 09:50 PM
Next time I hear somebody say they don't like Ohio State because of their fans, I'll know why after reading those four sentences above.

tOSU fans still aren't as bad as Notre Dame Football fans or Duke Basketball fans, though...

Call it a close 3rd.... for college sports, at least...

Highlifeman21
11-24-2008, 09:52 PM
"I'll play anybody anywhere anyplace. My philosophy has always been that we need to play Ohio State. If they don't want to play here, I'll play them in a parking lot in Xenia." - Brian Kelly

You'd think Tressel would embrace a UC - tOSU emerging rivalry, since I have a feeling that over the next 10 years the tOSU - Michigan rivalry will be a joke.

LoganBuck
11-24-2008, 09:54 PM
Next time I hear somebody say they don't like Ohio State because of their fans, I'll know why after reading those four sentences above.

I could have worded it like this:

UC needs to receive paychecks from road games for the athletic department to remain solvent. That shows the strain their budget is under because their city has not supported them. If UC fans want to take steps to ensure that they truly play big time college football, they need to play their games at Paul Brown Stadium where more fans can see them play. Until then they need to schedule road games against teams that will cut them a check.

The next time I hear a UC fan rail against Ohio State fans, I will think of Jan yelling "Marsha, Marsha, Marsha"!

paintmered
11-24-2008, 09:57 PM
I could have worded it like this:

UC needs to receive paychecks from road games for the athletic department to remain solvent. That shows the strain their budget is under because their city has not supported them. If UC fans want to take steps to ensure that they truly play big time college football, they need to play their games at Paul Brown Stadium where more fans can see them play. Until then they need to schedule road games against teams that will cut them a check.

The next time I hear a UC fan rail against Ohio State fans, I will think of Jan yelling "Marsha, Marsha, Marsha"!

Name one other team on UC's schedule that is paying them for an away game other than Ohio State.

There aren't any. Not even Oklahoma.

LoganBuck
11-24-2008, 10:01 PM
Name one other team on UC's schedule that is paying them for an away game other than Ohio State.

There aren't any. Not even Oklahoma.

WRONG!
http://www.gnextinc.com/ousoonersblog/2008/09/cincy-to-receive-300k-payout-to-play-ou.html

paintmered
11-24-2008, 10:07 PM
WRONG!
http://www.gnextinc.com/ousoonersblog/2008/09/cincy-to-receive-300k-payout-to-play-ou.html

Fair enough. I was wrong on this one.

BTW, Oklahoma kicking in 300K for a 1 for 1 is a pretty sweet deal for UC.

guttle11
11-24-2008, 10:07 PM
Wrong.

The game against Cal is in Columbus on September 15, 2012. The UC game is in Columbus on September 8, 2012. Ohio State's other two non-conference games are also at home.

OSU future road non-conference games ...

2009: Zero
2010: Zero
2011: @ Miami (FL)
2012: Zero

UC will play four road non-conference games this season alone. That's three more than Ohio State will play in the next four years combined. That is truly pathetic.



Or maybe it's because they just don't like going on the road in non-conference games.

Fair enough, I was wrong.

But the point remains the same. I think you're pretty off-base making any notion that OSU is scared of UC. It has no basis, and can be debunked by looking at who OSU is scheduling OOC. Texas, USC, Cal, Miami, VT, Oklahoma, and Tennessee are all high profile, and historically solid programs.

UC is not. They're getting better, and quality wise today may be equal or better some of them, but they have a way to go to reach the overall level of those programs. Ohio State is afraid to play nobody. They just have a business to run at the same time. If they can add a home game in any way possible, they'll do it. UC would, too. An AD of a school that draws a decent gate would be dumb not too.

For the record, Brian Kelly is on record as wishing the Miami rivalry was a Nippert only game, and really doesn't sound enthused about playing them at all. If the contract wasn't iron-clad for the next decade, the two schools likely wouldn't play next year and beyond. Clearly he's afraid of Miami of Ohio. How arrogant. See how easy it is to make baseless statements?

Cyclone792
11-24-2008, 10:09 PM
The next time I hear a UC fan rail against Ohio State fans, I will think of Jan yelling "Marsha, Marsha, Marsha"!

Nah that'd be inaccurate. UC fans just chuckle nowadays at Ohio State fans.


Fair enough. I was wrong on this one.

BTW, Oklahoma kicking in 300K for a 1 for 1 is a pretty sweet deal for UC.

Yup, a great deal for UC. And from what I'm hearing here, it sounds like that $300k is the difference between the athletic department just completely collapsing. :lol:

MWM
11-24-2008, 10:12 PM
tOSU fans still aren't as bad as Notre Dame Football fans or Duke Basketball fans, though...

Call it a close 3rd.... for college sports, at least...

Clearly you've not been exposed to the UK basketball population. The only other comp is Cub fans.

And I've spent plenty of time in southern california to experience the USC fanbase. Midwesterners don't have a good glmpse into that fanbase, but it's every bit as bad as any you list above. And have you ever been down to Alabama during college football season? How about attend a game at Camp Randall? Were there any more obnoxious fans anywhere than in Talahassee when they were an elite program? How about Miami Hurricane fans? I don't see how it's possible.

Cyclone792
11-24-2008, 10:16 PM
Fair enough, I was wrong.

But the point remains the same. I think you're pretty off-base making any notion that OSU is scared of UC. It has no basis, and can be debunked by looking at who OSU is scheduling OOC. Texas, USC, Cal, Miami, VT, Oklahoma, and Tennessee are all high profile, and historically solid programs.

UC is not. They're getting better, and quality wise today may be equal or better some of them, but they have a way to go to reach the overall level of those programs. Ohio State is afraid to play nobody. They just have a business to run at the same time.

Ohio State isn't playing anybody out of their conference on the road. I'm sorry, but two games in four or five years on the road in their non-conference schedule doesn't cut it. Is their goal seemingly to make the BCS title game each on a weak schedule in a weak conference only to get embarrassed?


For the record, Brian Kelly is on record as wishing the Miami rivalry was a Nippert only game, and really doesn't sound enthused about playing them at all. If the contract wasn't iron-clad for the next decade, the two schools likely wouldn't play next year and beyond. Clearly he's afraid of Miami of Ohio. How arrogant.

I disagree with Brian Kelly on this, and I'm not too happy that he's shown an interest in cutting that series up. UC/Miami needs to happen every season and they need to rotate stadiums every season. The same goes in basketball. UC should be playing Xavier, Miami, Indiana, Kentucky, and Ohio State all pretty regularly on a fair rotation. I've maintained this all along, and I still do maintain it.

And yet that's the difference between myself and a great deal of Ohio State fans. I want UC to face their regional foes on a fair rotation of home and road games in both basketball and football. Not only as a fan of the program but as a fan of the sport.

Instead we have Ohio State fans calling UC's program crap (hand down the scraps!) and making up every excuse in the book for why they shouldn't play. It's total arrogance, nothing more.

Cyclone792
11-24-2008, 10:18 PM
Clearly you've not been exposed to the UK basketball population. The onyl other comp is Cub fans.

UK fans have settled down quite a bit recently. I think they've focused most of their stuff in recent years on Tubby instead while he was searching for the exit door.

LoganBuck
11-24-2008, 10:25 PM
Instead we have Ohio State fans calling UC's program crap (hand down the scraps!) and making up every excuse in the book for why they shouldn't play. It's total arrogance, nothing more.

You were the one that injected the feces comment, right there. The truth is UC is in dire need of money, nothing more. To use your words.

When they lose Brian Kelly in 6 weeks, you will be reminded of that.

There is not one excuse in this entire thread about why they shouldn't play. Just Ohio State fans defending their team because they are annoyed, and UC fans doing the same. It is a crying shame the Reds can't get all us to this level of craziness with the Indians, or the Cubs.

Caveat Emperor
11-24-2008, 10:25 PM
OSU has a neutral site game against Toledo in Cleveland in 2009.

"Neutral Site" my tail -- that game will be stuffed to the gills with Ohio State fans. The environment will be about as hostile as a Tressel family reunion.

I'm really kinda done with Ohio State. They can shut me up if they go out of the Big 10 and beat someone important. But, by the looks of things, they aren't eager for repeats of their performances at Texas and USC in recent years, or their largely forgettable BCS appearances against the SEC.

Whatever. They'll always be the 500 lbs. gorilla in the state, and that's never going to change.

LoganBuck
11-24-2008, 10:30 PM
"Neutral Site" my tail -- that game will be stuffed to the gills with Ohio State fans. The environment will be about as hostile as a Tressel family reunion.

I'm really kinda done with Ohio State. They can shut me up if they go out of the Big 10 and beat someone important. But, by the looks of things, they aren't eager for repeats of their performances at Texas and USC in recent years, or their largely forgettable BCS appearances against the SEC.

I will take a repeat of their performance at Texas each and every week! USC comes back to the Horseshoe next year, and they probably get Georgia in the CapOne bowl.

Cyclone792
11-24-2008, 10:33 PM
You were the one that injected the feces comment, right there. The truth is UC is in dire need of money, nothing more.

When's the last time you've been on UC's campus, LB?


It is a crying shame the Reds can't get all us to this level of craziness with the Indians, or the Cubs.

If the Reds are ever perennial contenders and then we see a significant portion of the fan base looking down on other clubs as being inferior, I'll just shake my head. That isn't the way to go about things.

Caveat Emperor
11-24-2008, 10:33 PM
You were the one that injected the feces comment, right there. The truth is UC is in dire need of money, nothing more. To use your words.

When they lose Brian Kelly in 6 weeks, you will be reminded of that.

There is not one excuse in this entire thread about why they shouldn't play. Just Ohio State fans defending their team because they are annoyed, and UC fans doing the same. It is a crying shame the Reds can't get all us to this level of craziness with the Indians, or the Cubs.

Or Yankee fans... :rolleyes:

MWM
11-24-2008, 10:36 PM
Ohio State isn't playing anybody out of their conference on the road. I'm sorry, but two games in four or five years on the road in their non-conference schedule doesn't cut it. Is their goal seemingly to make the BCS title game each on a weak schedule in a weak conference only to get embarrassed?

How many of the top tier teams are any different? Some have a rivalry game they do every other year on the road, but it's not like there's a lot of top tier programs scheduling a tough road game out of their conference. This isn't an OSU thing.



And yet that's the difference between myself and a great deal of Ohio State fans. I want UC to face their regional foes on a fair rotation of home and road games in both basketball and football. Not only as a fan of the program but as a fan of the sport.

Instead we have Ohio State fans calling UC's program crap (hand down the scraps!) and making up every excuse in the book for why they shouldn't play. It's total arrogance, nothing more.

But can't you see some of the contradiction? The exact thing you're criticizing the OSU administration for is something Brian Kelly has been in favor of when it fits his circumstances. And I think there are plenty of OSU fans who would love to have an annual rivalry game with UC. I'd love to see it. I think it would be great for Ohio football. And OSU could use a secondary riva other than Michigan. Michigan has MSU and ND. OSU really doesn't have anyone else. And I don't think fear of losing factors into the decision at all.

LoganBuck
11-24-2008, 10:49 PM
When's the last time you've been on UC's campus, LB?


Last November, my brother went on a college tour, and I wanted to go to Bass Pro Shop. I am lucky to get to two or three Reds games a year, it is 100 miles away.

The money I speak of is the athletic departments budget. They aren't pulling money out of construction to pay coaches and buy shoulder pads.

guttle11
11-24-2008, 10:57 PM
Ohio State isn't playing anybody out of their conference on the road. I'm sorry, but two games in four or five years on the road in their non-conference schedule doesn't cut it. Is their goal seemingly to make the BCS title game each on a weak schedule in a weak conference only to get embarrassed?



I disagree with Brian Kelly on this, and I'm not too happy that he's shown an interest in cutting that series up. UC/Miami needs to happen every season and they need to rotate stadiums every season. The same goes in basketball. UC should be playing Xavier, Miami, Indiana, Kentucky, and Ohio State all pretty regularly on a fair rotation. I've maintained this all along, and I still do maintain it.

And yet that's the difference between myself and a great deal of Ohio State fans. I want UC to face their regional foes on a fair rotation of home and road games in both basketball and football. Not only as a fan of the program but as a fan of the sport.

Instead we have Ohio State fans calling UC's program crap (hand down the scraps!) and making up every excuse in the book for why they shouldn't play. It's total arrogance, nothing more.

There's a difference between wanting something and something being beneficial. As a UD basketball fan, I hear it all the time regarding a game with Wright State. It just doesn't make much sense for Ohio State to play UC on the road every two years, both economically and in terms of the BCS. They can't control the Big Ten being bad. They have to plan for a strong Big Ten, because if they aren't pushing a BCS bowl at minimum (like this season), they fail. So they play one tough OOC game, and three wins to generate money. It's not about UC, don't be myopic. It's about everyone. It doesn't make sense for any team with the slimmest of legit national title hopes to play two tough OOC games. OSU will play anyone, just not everyone. "Everyone" is just coaches rhetoric.

Since football schedules are set a decade in advance, there's nothing that can be done for a while. If UC keeps building and becomes a perennial Big East and occasional national title contender, maybe we see something happen down the road. It's insane to blame Ohio State when UC is just now getting to the point where they have a logical belief that they can hang with OSU every Saturday, not just the obligatory "given Saturday."

Now, if we had a playoff where 2 losses still kept OSU in the title hunt...then we could talk.

Cyclone792
11-24-2008, 11:07 PM
There's a difference between wanting something and something being beneficial. As a UD basketball fan, I hear it all the time regarding a game with Wright State. It just doesn't make much sense for Ohio State to play UC on the road every two years, both economically and in terms of the BCS. They can't control the Big Ten being bad. They have to plan for a strong Big Ten, because if they aren't pushing a BCS bowl at minimum (like this season), they fail. So they play one tough OOC game, and three wins to generate money. It's not about UC, don't be myopic. It's about everyone. It doesn't make sense for any team with the slimmest of legit national title hopes to play two tough OOC games. OSU will play anyone, just not everyone. "Everyone" is just coaches rhetoric.

That's why the system needs to change, but that's another discussion. In reality, each BCS team needs to schedule two games against another BCS team each season ... one at home and one on the road.

And FWIW, UC and UD need to get back to playing each other in hoops.

Cyclone792
11-24-2008, 11:18 PM
The money I speak of is the athletic departments budget. They aren't pulling money out of construction to pay coaches and buy shoulder pads.

Contrary to what you believe, the athletic department is fine.

If they were in such dire circumstances, then part (or all) of Varsity Village would have never happened. The baseball stadium was rebuilt, renovated soccer fields, state of the art facilities, you name it. In fact, the recent vast upgrades to the facilities as a whole has greatly benefitted UC athletics and also aided their ability to develop the football program even this far.

Just last week they announced plans for the practice bubble. If the athletic department was struggling, that practice bubble wouldn't be happening.

LoganBuck
11-24-2008, 11:26 PM
Contrary to what you believe, the athletic department is fine.

If they were in such dire circumstances, then part (or all) of Varsity Village would have never happened. The baseball stadium was rebuilt, renovated soccer fields, state of the art facilities, you name it. In fact, the recent vast upgrades to the facilities as a whole has greatly benefitted UC athletics and also aided their ability to develop the football program even this far.

Just last week they announced plans for the practice bubble. If the athletic department was struggling, that practice bubble wouldn't be happening.

Much of that was bought and paid for before the Huggins fiasco.

The practice bubble is a welcome addition. It goes towards the goal of retaining Brian Kelly. They are going to have to pay him like a top flight coach, or someone else will.

*BaseClogger*
11-25-2008, 01:40 AM
"Neutral Site" my tail -- that game will be stuffed to the gills with Ohio State fans. The environment will be about as hostile as a Tressel family reunion.

:laugh: That's Ohio State's fault!

*BaseClogger*
11-25-2008, 01:56 AM
Ohio State isn't playing anybody out of their conference on the road. I'm sorry, but two games in four or five years on the road in their non-conference schedule doesn't cut it. Is their goal seemingly to make the BCS title game each on a weak schedule in a weak conference only to get embarrassed?

Yeah, they are. As noted by others, they have a home-and-home scheduled with major competition for the next decade. They don't control the strength of their conference. They don't control what happens to the teams they schedule six years in advance. You are just expecting something from Ohio State that no other program does, including UC.


I disagree with Brian Kelly on this, and I'm not too happy that he's shown an interest in cutting that series up. UC/Miami needs to happen every season and they need to rotate stadiums every season. The same goes in basketball. UC should be playing Xavier, Miami, Indiana, Kentucky, and Ohio State all pretty regularly on a fair rotation. I've maintained this all along, and I still do maintain it.

You guys just need to come to the realization that your football program isn't there yet. It's not arrogance, it's reality, and this time I'm the one being reasonable. If you had a truly great football program, you wouldn't play road games at Yager Stadium; this year Vanderbilt was the first SEC team to ever play there. Top flight programs just don't play road games in stadiums that hold 30,000 people.


And yet that's the difference between myself and a great deal of Ohio State fans. I want UC to face their regional foes on a fair rotation of home and road games in both basketball and football. Not only as a fan of the program but as a fan of the sport.

Ohio State is the king of college football in Ohio. Again, not arrogance, but reality. So, by your logic, should Ohio State play Toledo, Kent State, Akron, Bowling Green, Ohio, and Miami every year? They are from Ohio, so shouldn't they be yearly rivals as well? I'm sure Miami wants a "fair rotation of home and road games in both basketball and football" with Ohio State, does that mean the Buckeyes should play road games at Yager Stadium and flush millions of dollars down the drain? Can you imagine Ohio State playing in a MAC stadium? It would be a circus, anyone who is familiar with supply and demand understands this.


Instead we have Ohio State fans calling UC's program crap (hand down the scraps!) and making up every excuse in the book for why they shouldn't play. It's total arrogance, nothing more.

The program isn't crap, but as of a few years ago UC was playing in Conference USA. The football program was on the same level as several MAC schools. Sometimes, there are reasons for excuses...

Cyclone792
11-25-2008, 06:06 AM
You guys just need to come to the realization that your football program isn't there yet. It's not arrogance, it's reality, and this time I'm the one being reasonable.

As I said several posts back, Ohio State's true athletic department colors show with their basketball program. They ducked UC for nearly two decades during the Huggins era and hid behind the Damon Flint excuse. Ohio State just couldn't see themselves playing a decent in-state team from Conference USA. So long as Bob Huggins was around, Ohio State was never going to play UC, or so was the apparent claim. They only agreed to play UC when UC had one of its worst teams in decades and Ohio State had one of its best teams in decades. And when Cronin approached Matta about playing regularly, Matta brushed him off.

Now it's two years later and we see Ohio State's excuse about not playing Huggins was merely a convenient excuse for the time.

LoganBuck
11-25-2008, 07:51 AM
As I said several posts back, Ohio State's true athletic department colors show with their basketball program. They ducked UC for nearly two decades during the Huggins era and hid behind the Damon Flint excuse. Ohio State just couldn't see themselves playing a decent in-state team from Conference USA. So long as Bob Huggins was around, Ohio State was never going to play UC, or so was the apparent claim. They only agreed to play UC when UC had one of its worst teams in decades and Ohio State had one of its best teams in decades. And when Cronin approached Matta about playing regularly, Matta brushed him off.

Now it's two years later and we see Ohio State's excuse about not playing Huggins was merely a convenient excuse for the time.

Do you really care? I said before my opinion of OSU basketball, but this is a little pervasive. If Thad had agreed to a home and home last year and this year, or even "neutral site" games at Nationwide and US Bank? Would you be happier? I would bet that the argument would be the same. They wanted to play us while we are down, etc etc etc. I have big hopes for UC this season, but that team is flawed. When a game comes around where they need two point guards they are in deep trouble.

Maybe Thad revisits the option in a few years. Who knows, who cares?

GAC
11-25-2008, 08:18 AM
If UC and Ohio State played each other 100 times, who would win more? Most likely Ohio State, I'm sure. But would Ohio State win 90 of those games? Hardly.

Well, we know that these two teams will never play each other 100 times. So it's purely subjective to say how many times OSU would win/lose vs the Bearcats. But my subjective opinion is that OSU would beat them 90 out of 100. ;)

Since 2000, the Bearcats have played Big 10 schools 7 times, and are 0-7.

The Big 10 is 3-1 vs the Big East in 2008.

Again Cyclone.... even as a HUGE Buckeye fan, I love following programs like the Bearcats (and Xavier). Their basketball programs have had far more consistent success then even the Buckeyes. And I fully support the efforts of the University of Cincinnati, in the last few years, in leaving Conference USA and moving to the Big East, in trying to elevate their football program to a top 20 team and get national recognition.

But for a program like Cincinnati's, there is a BIG time financial risk/undertaking that bigger, national programs don't have, and who can "absorb" it better. And even the Bearcat's current Athletic Director says so....

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20081030/COL03/810300314/1009/EDIT


Giddiness routed practicality when the Big East asked UC to become a member. It was like walking into a Mercedes showroom with a dollar in your wallet. Buy the sedan now, figure out how to pay for it later. Smell that new league smell. Cincinnati couldn't say no.

Now, there's a practice bubble to be built, practice fields to construct, a successful and popular football coach to keep happy, a basketball program and its crabby fan base to rehab... and....

money to pay for it all?

Mike Thomas wasn't athletic director when UC bought the Mercedes. He's charged with paying for it. He's not complaining, not even close. Who wouldn't jump from Conference USA to the Big East? It's just that, well, the big time costs. Big time.

"There was a never a question we should be in the Big East," Thomas said. "But we're basically down at the bottom (of the conference) with the resources we have for our 18 sports. You can be successful with some of your programs with less. But to sustain (success) is extremely difficult. Having the resources affects your personnel, your facilities, your budgets. In that area, we have some work to do."

And sadly, but true, it's a well known fact that coaches, especially those that show a measure of success, such as what Kelly is doing with the Bearcats, are very hard to retain, and use these programs as stepping stones to move to those bigger schools, national recognition, and more importantly - having those huge financial resources available to them.

Tressel came from that scenario (Youngstown State). So did Rodriguez, now with Michigan.

The above article also states this....


Ten years ago, we spoke with straight faces of abolishing football in Clifton. Now, the hottest topic is how to keep Kelly's considerable ambitions hitched to the UC wagon.

Props to Thomas, who couldn't have inherited a worse situation, then hired Brian Kelly. Now, all the AD has to do is raise enough money so the checks don't bounce.

He has to find a way to pay for the practice facility and the fields Kelly requested. If the bubble isn't up by next September and the fields by next December, Kelly's contract stipulates the buyout in his deal is reduced by half.

In other words, it would make it twice as easy for a prospective suitor to pay UC for Kelly's services.

Kelly was the perfect hire for UC football. Which means he'll be perfectly ready to move on, when the opportunity arises. If the Bearcats do get to the Orange Bowl, they'll need T. Boone Pickens to keep Kelly in red and black.

OSU has the largest Athletic Department budget in the nation (110 million). I think the Bearcats is somewhere around 25 mil?

Consistency in winning

Again - Brian Kelly, who replaced Minter, is doing a fantastic job. But other then what Kelly is currently doing, you have to go back over 50 years, under Sid Gillman, to find the glory days of Bearcat football. Since then, there have been occassional glimpses of hope, a few spurts, but a hard time maintaining consistency. 28 losing seasons in the last 54 years. Ten straight from '83-'93. Their overall record is 506-530-51 (.488)


CE said it best: Ohio State is the better team, but it's nowhere near to the level that Buckeye fans want to pretend it is.

And what "level" would that be? I don't know that Buckeye fans are pretending anything. We're just as proud of our school as Bearcat fans are of theirs. We don't attempt to make them out to be anything more then what they are.

In the state of Ohio, the Buckeyes are the "big dog". That's not disparaging those other intra-state college football program, but simply the reality of the situation. No other program within the state, historically, has built and maintained the national recognition, nor consistently maintained the level of success that the program at OSU has done. And there is a jealousy factor at play there too as those other programs try to attain to that level that OSU possesses. It's David going after Goliath.

The bottomline to all of this are those two lopsided losses in the BCS NC games over the last two years. People like to take those and then say that OSU is not that it's all cracked up to be. Really? Since the inception of the BCS, OSU has played in THREE of those championship games, and won one. There has only been one repeat winner (LSU). So it's not an easy task to attain to.

The fact that they've gotten to those games - and were selected to be there by that very same BCS computer ranking system - is a testament IMO to the success of this program far more then those losses.

And it's obvious that OSU will be edged out this year when it comes to a BCS Bowl. Thems the rules. But wherever OSU goes, they know their fans will show up in mass quantities and bring in large amounts of revenue.

They are a high profile college football program.

bucksfan2
11-25-2008, 08:35 AM
That's why the system needs to change, but that's another discussion. In reality, each BCS team needs to schedule two games against another BCS team each season ... one at home and one on the road.

And FWIW, UC and UD need to get back to playing each other in hoops.

It would be tough considering that contracts are being made into 2015. The problem I see with mandating BCS schools to play other BCS schools is that doesn't mean they are going to be playing quality teams. If one team played a non-conference schedule that included BYU and Utah this season while another played Indiana and WSU who played the better schedule. Your rule would indicate that the second team in playing two awful teams in BCS conferences played the better schedule.

Say for instance UC and OSU agree to play each other 5 times in a 10 year span. UC is granted 2 home games at PBS. Kelly leaves and UC returns to a middle to bottom of the pack Big East school. OSU has two defacto home games at PBS but loses out on any revenue. They already have some inroads in the Cincy area for recruiting so they lose a national audience playing UC. And UC is a team that is playing with nothing to lose. It really is a lose lose situation for OSU football.

Cyclone792
11-25-2008, 08:38 AM
Do you really care? I said before my opinion of OSU basketball, but this is a little pervasive. If Thad had agreed to a home and home last year and this year, or even "neutral site" games at Nationwide and US Bank? Would you be happier? I would bet that the argument would be the same. They wanted to play us while we are down, etc etc etc. I have big hopes for UC this season, but that team is flawed. When a game comes around where they need two point guards they are in deep trouble.

Maybe Thad revisits the option in a few years. Who knows, who cares?

How the Ohio State athletic department handled the basketball situation is a microcosm of how they are. Why not play annually now? Why not in the 90s? Why not before? UC doesn't have any problem hooking up with Xavier; Kentucky doesn't have any problem hooking up with Louisville.

Not that it matters much anymore anyway as the roles will likely be reversed. The Big East is rolling into the midwest and flexing their muscle in Big Ten territory, both in prestige and in recruiting. Meanwhile each December the ACC piles on their annual beatdown of the Big Ten. The Big Ten has fallen behind in hoops and is evolving into a second tier conference rather than maintaining its status as a power conference; it's just not going to be near the same level with the Big East or ACC in hoops without a shakeup.

GAC
11-25-2008, 08:55 AM
Fair enough. I was wrong on this one.

BTW, Oklahoma kicking in 300K for a 1 for 1 is a pretty sweet deal for UC.

True.

But whose fault is it when OSU is allowed to "strong arm" a school like the Bearcats to play in Columbus (2012)? Shouldn't the blame fall on the Bearcats' administration for not standing their ground, demanding some respect from OSU, instead of accepting a million bucks to move the game to Columbus?

I can understand the position by some about wanting to play the Bucks in Nippert Stadium; but the fact of the matter is that the Bearcat brass is conceding to the situation that brings the most money to the school, because they need it badly if they want to continue to progress up that curve.

Whose decision was it to play the 2002 game in PBS? It made sense, and provided both teams with better paydays since 66,000 showed up for that game, and Nippert only holds 35,000.

Why is OSU playing Toledo in '09 at Cleveland Stadium? Money. The Glass Bowl only holds 26,000. And for an intra-state game, you're going to get that many Buckeye fans alone travelling there to see it. :lol:

Roy Tucker
11-25-2008, 09:14 AM
As far as the 2012 game, Ohio State was going to opt out of the game. The language of the contract signed by both teams gave Ohio State that option.

So, instead of not playing the game at all, UC negotiated to receive the $1M and play the game at OSU. They would have rather played the game at PBS, but it came down to @OSU or nothing.

http://gobearcats.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/031808aaa.html



UC Athletics Announces Football Schedule Changes with Ohio State

2012 and 2014 games to be played in Columbus following contractual action by OSU

March 18, 2008

CINCINNATI - The University of Cincinnati Department of Athletics has announced changes to its future football series with Ohio State, moving the 2012 game from Cincinnati to Columbus. The final game of the original contract, signed in 2003, will also be played in 2014 in Columbus.

Following discussions with Ohio State Athletics in which they indicated their intent to opt out of the 2012 game, originally scheduled at Paul Brown Stadium, UC negotiated an enhanced agreement to play the game in Columbus. The compensation for that game now includes cash payments to Cincinnati valued at $1,000,000. These payments begin immediately and will be put toward funding of the new football initiatives at UC.

"This particular football scheduling agreement with Ohio State, like all agreements, contained a buyout clause for the game in 2012." says Director of Athletics Mike Thomas. "It was clear that Ohio State was prepared to exercise its contractual option to vacate this particular game, but we were able to negotiate an enhanced agreement for 2012."

"UC had no legal recourse, nor means to stop this action from taking place, due to the language in the original contract."

Head football coach Brian Kelly, who was involved in the negotiations, stated, "In this case UC is making the best out of a difficult pre-existing contract. It would be a shame to see the only BCS schools in the state of Ohio end an in-state rivalry on the football field. The state with the most-storied tradition in high school football should have that same excitement at the college level."

"I agree with Mike Thomas that playing future games on an even playing field will be an important factor in scheduling for the future," continued Kelly. "This course of action is consistent with my philosophy that Cincinnati will play anyone, anywhere, at anytime."

The University of Cincinnati will close this current scheduling arrangement with the Buckeyes with a final game in 2014, also in Columbus. UC Athletics will be paid $375,000 from Ohio State for this final game, which ends the terms of the 2003 scheduling agreement. This is the final game between Cincinnati and Ohio State on the books.

Cyclone792
11-25-2008, 09:23 AM
But whose fault is it when OSU is allowed to "strong arm" a school like the Bearcats to play in Columbus (2012)? Shouldn't the blame fall on the Bearcats' administration for not standing their ground, demanding some respect from OSU, instead of accepting a million bucks to move the game to Columbus?

The original contract gave Ohio State a buyout clause to just cancel the game, and Ohio State notified UC that they were going to exercise that clause last offseason. Instead of just taking money to cancel the game, UC re-negotiated to play the game in Columbus while taking a million bucks.

What I don't get is why Ohio State wanted to take the buyout. The buyout is supposed to protect Ohio State from UC's program regressing, not the other way around. If UC went in the toilet last year and Ohio State opted for the buyout, then that's a bit more understandable. But if UC's program becomes a decent BCS program, wouldn't Ohio State want that type of road game on their schedule? If UC is on the upswing, wouldn't Ohio State be interested in playing them?

But to opt for the buyout after what was then UC's best season in recent history? And coming on the heels of what the OSU basketball program did?

bucksfan
11-25-2008, 09:26 AM
As a background preluding my comments, I am an Ohio State alum, and very big basketball fan as well as football fan. I consider myself reasonable and fair at most times (except possibly during the games :) )

What ticks me off in these discussions more than anything is not the actual factual arguments being made. There are good points on both sides; For instance, my take on 2 points brought up in this thread are :

1) I do not like that we do not play UC in basketball regularly and don't really think any excuse is good enough. I'd love to see them play annually and I think any attempt to duck these matchups is ridiculous on OSU's part.

2) However I think the hand-wringing about Ohio State's football schedule is unwarranted also. I don't care for the playing of Youngstown State, but besides that, they schedule home & homes with OOC BCS schools and play their conference schedule such as it is each year. I really don't think there is that much to complain about there from inside or out.

But like I was saying, what really rubs me the wrong way, and I think what starts to seriously detract from the points being made, are generalized statements about "OSU fans" (or team X's fans) being obnoxious/arrogant/insert-word-of-your-choice here. When statements like that are made, the credibility of the rest of the statements gets clouded. Instantly I am taken aback because I certainly do not consider myself arrogant or obnoxious and I know many fellow Buckeyes are the same way. There are idiot fans of every school/team, and with OSU's large alumni base and proximity to this area, you'll see a bunch of them in scarlet and gray for sure. The minute one starts talking like they know how an entire fan base acts/thinks is the moment they are wrong. There are good points made on both sides as I acknowledged above, but it is hard to get into the discussion when these types of opinions are interspersed in the debate. Honestly it makes me want to say the same types of silly things in return, which obviously would be as inaccurate and useless as the initial comments and not really further the discussion.

And also FWIW, I generally support X and UC (particularly X) in all of their endeavors when they are not playing the Bucks.

GAC
11-25-2008, 09:53 AM
The Big Ten has fallen behind in hoops and is evolving into a second tier conference rather than maintaining its status as a power conference; it's just not going to be near the same level with the Big East or ACC in hoops without a shakeup.

First off.... I don't think the Big 10 is becoming a "second tier" conference in basketball. Since 2000, we've had 4 Big 10 teams in the championship game. The Big 10 has placed a team(s) in the Final Four 6 of the last 10 years. That's not second tier IMO.

Why do some colleges really excel in one sport, but don't in another? Because some college programs place more emphasis on one sport over another. They see it as their "bread n butter", and that is where they place their emphasis.

Why do conferences like the Atlantic 10 and ACC really excel in basketball? Well, with the A10, that is where their emphasis is, and some don't even have football programs. Why is Duke a powerhouse in basketball, but not in football? Why can't the Hoosiers show the same success in football that they have in basketball?

And it's possible that it probably comes down to cost when looking at football vs basketball.

Cyclone792
11-25-2008, 10:24 AM
First off.... I don't think the Big 10 is becoming a "second tier" conference in basketball. Since 2000, we've had 4 Big 10 teams in the championship game. The Big 10 has placed a team(s) in the Final Four 6 of the last 10 years. That's not second tier IMO.

Their conference RPI last season was closer to the Atlantic 10 and Missouri Valley Conference than it was to any of the other five power conferences. If you broke out the conferences in groups, you'd have five power conferences in one tier followed by the Big Ten, A-10, and MVC in the next tier.

The Big Ten has typically had one or two legitimately excellent basketball teams each season, but the overall conference has greatly diminished. There's just not much quality depth, and this season isn't any different. The lack of quality depth is what drags the conference down. The Big Ten's third, fourth, fifth best teams are subpar when compared to the other power conferences.

Right now this season the Big ten has only three teams in the top 25, and by next week that may be down to two since Connecticut blew Wisconsin out last night. Michigan State and Purdue are legit, but the rest of the conference won't hold up their end of the show.

guttle11
11-25-2008, 10:54 AM
The Big Ten will be better than the SEC in hoops, maybe the Pac 10 too.

Michigan State and Purdue will be really good. Ohio State and Michigan (who already beat UCLA on a neutral floor) should both make the dance, as should Wisconsin. Illinois looks like an NIT team, but one that could make the dance if they steal a win or two on the road. Everyone but IU and Northwestern should have a quality team.

*BaseClogger*
11-25-2008, 01:11 PM
As I said several posts back, Ohio State's true athletic department colors show with their basketball program. They ducked UC for nearly two decades during the Huggins era and hid behind the Damon Flint excuse. Ohio State just couldn't see themselves playing a decent in-state team from Conference USA. So long as Bob Huggins was around, Ohio State was never going to play UC, or so was the apparent claim. They only agreed to play UC when UC had one of its worst teams in decades and Ohio State had one of its best teams in decades. And when Cronin approached Matta about playing regularly, Matta brushed him off.

Now it's two years later and we see Ohio State's excuse about not playing Huggins was merely a convenient excuse for the time.

That's fine, you might be right with this one, because I don't follow college basketball all that closely. That wasn't the part of your argument that bothered me...

Cyclone792
11-25-2008, 04:46 PM
That's fine, you might be right with this one, because I don't follow college basketball all that closely. That wasn't the part of your argument that bothered me...

Much of this originated with the basketball programs. The two schools don't like each other because of basketball; that's the simple way of putting it. I'm glad there are Buckeyes fans out there like bucksfan who want a UC/OSU annual basketball game to be played. I'm sure a bunch of Buckeyes fans want that game. UC fans want the game. UC themselves want the game. Too bad the Buckeyes AD shows no interest in listening to anybody about it.

It just carries over to the football programs now because it's eerily similar with what's been occurring on the basketball side for decades.

Highlifeman21
11-25-2008, 04:52 PM
Much of this originated with the basketball programs. The two schools don't like each other because of basketball; that's the simple way of putting it. I'm glad there are Buckeyes fans out there like bucksfan who want a UC/OSU annual basketball game to be played. I'm sure a bunch of Buckeyes fans want that game. UC fans want the game. UC themselves want the game. Too bad the Buckeyes AD shows no interest in listening to anybody about it.

It just carries over to the football programs now because it's eerily similar with what's been occurring on the basketball side for decades.

IIRC, we can thank Andy Geiger for the hoops mess.

Caveat Emperor
11-25-2008, 05:20 PM
And it's possible that it probably comes down to cost when looking at football vs basketball.

That, and the fact that taxpayer-supported public institutions, such as Ohio State and Cincinnati, are keeping other taxpayer-supported public institutions, such as Ohio University and University of Toledo, from sitting at the big-boy table when it comes to football by denying them access to the big-dollar BCS system.

No question that it's cheaper to field a good basketball team than it is to field a good football team -- but it's also an undeniable fact that the NCAA is much more "inclusive" when it comes to giving everyone a fair shake in hoops than they are in the football world.

Matt700wlw
11-25-2008, 05:43 PM
Is there any chance that his ratings are down and he only said that as a stunt to get people to talk about his show?

.

The most recent book would suggest that the ratings are just fine.

I'd love to see Ohio State and UC play more often than they do...and now that UC is in a BCS conference, maybe they can get it done...home and home every other year or something...they should revisit the idea.

MWM
11-25-2008, 07:32 PM
I think football versus basketball is apples and oranges in this case. Up until the past few years, UC was actually the stronger program and there really was no legitimate reason for OSU not to play UC annually. For football, I think there are legitimate financial reasons why OSU chooses not to play UC in Cincy every other year (or any year for that matter). You might not like those reasons, but from a financial standpoint, they at least make sense, and they've been laid out in this thread fairly well. And I think if we're all being honest we'd realize that's the nature of their decision. It's financial. Does it suck? Sure. But it's following the pattern of what every other top tier program does, so it's not something unique to OSU.

I'd love to see it become an annual game played in both locations. And I'd love for it to become relevant as well. OSU needs a second rivalry game. But under the current environment of college football, it's just not likely to happen.

GAC
11-26-2008, 03:30 AM
Very well put Mike. And financial is the bottom line.