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improbus
11-23-2008, 10:18 PM
This season is shaping up very nicely. The two leagues are evening out, there are a ton of intriguing stories, and there is a reason to watch every team in the league. Even the bad ones.

But is anyone watching? I sometimes feel like Tom Hanks' castaway character talking to a stuffed volleyball when it comes to the NBA...

sonny
11-23-2008, 10:20 PM
The stuffed volleyball understands the concept of team defense.

sonny
11-23-2008, 10:23 PM
seriously,

The NBA really starts to heat up for me after Christmas. Thats when teams really start to seperate and the quality of play gets a little better. That being said, I have really enjoyed reading about the Celtics and the Cavs. As a product, it is much better than it has been in years.

dougdirt
11-23-2008, 10:24 PM
I tend to not watch games, only highlights, until about April. The NBA season just seems to long for me without having a team that I root for day in and day out.

improbus
11-23-2008, 10:34 PM
The stuffed volleyball understands the concept of team defense.

Here is what is funny about this comment and those like it. People loved the NBA the most in the 80's with Bird and Magic. Well...NONE of those teams played any defense. It wasn't until the Pistons came around that the defense improved, and that corresponded with an era where people complained about the lack of offense. Well, you can't have it both ways.

Besides, I would argue that the Spurs, Cavs, Celtics, Hawks, Mavs, Rockets, and Blazers all play excellent team defense.

improbus
11-23-2008, 10:38 PM
The stuffed volleyball understands the concept of team defense.
One more thing, if you're such a fan of team defense, what are you doing watching the Reds? Ba-dum Ching....I'll be here all week...

cincrazy
11-23-2008, 10:42 PM
I'm watching it, and I'm loving it. It's been a fun year so far. Will be interesting to see if the Spurs can get healthy and return to form. That team isn't getting any younger, and they seem to be less athletic every year. I would never count out a Popovich-coached team... but the year isn't looking promising so far.

improbus
11-23-2008, 10:45 PM
I'm watching it, and I'm loving it. It's been a fun year so far. Will be interesting to see if the Spurs can get healthy and return to form. That team isn't getting any younger, and they seem to be less athletic every year. I would never count out a Popovich-coached team... but the year isn't looking promising so far.

I agree. I think Ginobili will returned more rested than he has been since he joined the Spurs and is going to go crazy. Their role players kind of scare me, but they are getting valuable playing time. Plus, Duncan makes every player on the court 25-50% better.

sonny
11-23-2008, 10:49 PM
One more thing, if you're such a fan of team defense, what are you doing watching the Reds? Ba-dum Ching....I'll be here all week...

What can I say, you got me there. :)

Regarding the Lakers-Celtics era, it was less of the M and the E in TEAM. The player in the NBA's recent past has been all about the player. The bling, the posse, the snippet on MTV's Cribs. I now see The NBA adopt a team first ethos since Detroit and San Antonio rose to prominence. Teams like the Knicks, who still adopt the Superstar First image, continue to suck.

Like I said, it is getting much better.

improbus
11-23-2008, 10:53 PM
What can I say, you got me there. :)

Regarding the Lakers-Celtics era, it was less of the M and the E in TEAM. The player in the NBA's recent past has been all about the player. The bling, the posse, the snippet on MTV's Cribs. I now see The NBA adopt a team first ethos since Detroit and San Antonio rose to prominence. Teams like the Knicks, who still adopt the Superstar First image, continue to suck.

That probably applied more from 1995-2004-ish. But the list of great players who play the "right way" is growing every year. Some of the credit goes to the internationals, but alot of it goes to the American born stars too.

sonny
11-23-2008, 10:59 PM
That probably applied more from 1995-2004-ish. But the list of great players who play the "right way" is growing every year. Some of the credit goes to the internationals, but alot of it goes to the American born stars too.

I agree. I'm really interested in Greg Odens growth. since a slow start, he has really stepped it up.

TeamSelig
11-23-2008, 11:04 PM
Not alot of NBA fans on this board, but I love it. My Pacers are competing somewhat this year, well at least keeping it close anyways.

improbus
11-23-2008, 11:06 PM
Not alot of NBA fans on this board, but I love it. My Pacers are competing somewhat this year, well at least keeping it close anyways.
When is Dunleavy coming back?

RedsManRick
11-23-2008, 11:08 PM
I watch, but I agree with Sonny. I prefer an offensive oriented game. However, I want to see ball rotation and good outside shooting with the occasional spectacular break your man down and drive from a guard. I get so tired of offense that's either isolation after isolation play with the aim of getting fouled. I wonder how many FT/G we see today compared to back in the 80s and what sort of comparison we see with FG% outside of 5 feet.

In some ways, it seems that the NBA has realized the value of walks (free throws) and homers (3 pt) and nobody plays small ball anymore. Ironic coming from me, but I prefer the old school style.

WMR
11-23-2008, 11:10 PM
I'm in first place in both my fantasy leagues. :D

improbus
11-23-2008, 11:27 PM
I watch, but I agree with Sonny. I prefer an offensive oriented game. However, I want to see ball rotation and good outside shooting with the occasional spectacular break your man down and drive from a guard. I get so tired of offense that's either isolation after isolation play with the aim of getting fouled. I wonder how many FT/G we see today compared to back in the 80s and what sort of comparison we see with FG% outside of 5 feet.

In some ways, it seems that the NBA has realized the value of walks (free throws) and homers (3 pt) and nobody plays small ball anymore. Ironic coming from me, but I prefer the old school style.
It has gotten alot harder to shoot mid-range jumpers when teams are playing guys like Tyrus Thomas (6'9'' with longer wing span and 40'' vertical) at the 3 and 4. There are very few uncontested shots anymore.

TeamSelig
11-23-2008, 11:31 PM
When is Dunleavy coming back?

Whenever his knee stops hurting. ;) I don't think there is a time table set yet. From what I've read, he could be back very soon, but it could end up being about a month too.

Razor Shines
11-23-2008, 11:47 PM
I love watching Pacers this year. They've hit a bad stretch lately, but overall I think they will be much better than last year. Their offense is great I think, they move the ball very well. There was one game this year that they had something like 32 baskets on 24 assists, that's great team offense.

I think Dunleavy coming back will help, but according to the Star he hasn't even had a full practice yet.

Revering4Blue
11-24-2008, 09:52 PM
As well as Marquis Daniels is playing, Dunleavy may be the 6th man once he returns.

Anyway, Eddie Jordan was fired by the Wizards today, and I think he got a raw deal. Is it his fault that Arenas and Haywood are out?

Emin3mShady07
11-24-2008, 11:31 PM
It has gotten alot harder to shoot mid-range jumpers when teams are playing guys like Tyrus Thomas (6'9'' with longer wing span and 40'' vertical) at the 3 and 4. There are very few uncontested shots anymore.

Never mention Tyrus. he has to be the worst player in NBA history with his amount of raw talent and potential. I love my beloved Bulls, but they are pretty much a hapless team this season and the GM John Paxson has done nothing to improve this team. If Derrick Rose wasn't stolen from some more deserving team and delievered to us we would probably only have 1 win or maybe two this year. Tyrus along with Noah, Aaron Gray, and Thabo Sefolosha are just wasted draft picks that could have made the bulls a contending team.

Jack Burton
11-25-2008, 12:32 AM
Go Hawks! Could be a team to deal w/ in the East, once they get healthy they are stacked.

TeamSelig
11-25-2008, 05:26 PM
Never mention Tyrus. he has to be the worst player in NBA history with his amount of raw talent and potential. I love my beloved Bulls, but they are pretty much a hapless team this season and the GM John Paxson has done nothing to improve this team. If Derrick Rose wasn't stolen from some more deserving team and delievered to us we would probably only have 1 win or maybe two this year. Tyrus along with Noah, Aaron Gray, and Thabo Sefolosha are just wasted draft picks that could have made the bulls a contending team.

Tyrus = bust...

Hate to say that with a player so young, but I am pretty confident he will never take advantage of all that potential.

As for Rose, he is playing 100x better than I thought he would. I've been waiting for the Bulls to just commit to a complete rebuild.

HumnHilghtFreel
11-25-2008, 06:17 PM
Personally, I love the NBA, but I've been fairly busy this year and haven't gotten to watch as many teams as I normally do. I usually get the NBA cable package, but I've stuck to just my Cavs games so far. And thus far, I think they look like a great great team. They've definitely gotten better. The key to it all, I feel, is not Mo Williams, but Ben Wallace finally getting acclimated to the system. He's not the DPOY anymore, but still a gamechanger defensively and has been playing his role very well thus far.

Emin3mShady07
11-25-2008, 09:53 PM
Tyrus = bust...

Hate to say that with a player so young, but I am pretty confident he will never take advantage of all that potential.

As for Rose, he is playing 100x better than I thought he would. I've been waiting for the Bulls to just commit to a complete rebuild.

Yeah there is no doubt in my mind that Tyrus will be a bust. He just has such a low basketball IQ its ridiculous. I have not seen a lot of the bulls games this year, but whenever I do, he is forcing up shots or dribbling around like an idiot instead of letting a guard do that. Tyrus has a shooting % of .314, great for a batting average, but terribly bad for a NBA shooting percentage. IMO it looks like the Bulls are going to do the worst thing possible for the franchise this year and go about .500 so they don't get a lottery pick and aren't good enough to make any noise in the playoff hunt. I wanted the bulls to rebuild 3 years ago and then they signed Ben Wallace, god that was just awful to watch.

improbus
11-26-2008, 09:01 AM
Yeah there is no doubt in my mind that Tyrus will be a bust. He just has such a low basketball IQ its ridiculous. I have not seen a lot of the bulls games this year, but whenever I do, he is forcing up shots or dribbling around like an idiot instead of letting a guard do that. Tyrus has a shooting % of .314, great for a batting average, but terribly bad for a NBA shooting percentage. IMO it looks like the Bulls are going to do the worst thing possible for the franchise this year and go about .500 so they don't get a lottery pick and aren't good enough to make any noise in the playoff hunt. I wanted the bulls to rebuild 3 years ago and then they signed Ben Wallace, god that was just awful to watch.

I wasn't really stating that Tyrus was good, just that his body type didn't really exist in the NBA in the '80's. I could substitute a ton of names for Tyrus (Aldridge, Bosh, Garnett, Ariza, Frye, Kirilenko, Josh Smith, Landry, Kenyon Martin, Maxiell, etc...) It is guys like this that make the mid-range jumper less effective. Guys contest shots more than they used to. Watch those Lakers Celtics game and watch Larry Bird and Magic play defense, it was almost laughable. In the '80's, you had a defensive stopper like DJ or Michael Cooper, but everyone else was off the hook on D.

improbus
11-26-2008, 09:25 AM
As a rabid NBA fan, I am getting really tired of poeple excuses for not watching. Here are the most common ones that I hear.

1) They travel too much
2) They don't play any defense
3) They are all thugs
4) They can't shoot mid-range jumpers
5) They don't run an offense
6) They have selfish players

My responses:
1) Rules and interpretations change. Look at the difference in the strike zone over the last 25-30 years. They could call holding on every play in football. Also man defense has improved dramatically and so players have had to do things differently.
2) I've already mentioned this, but this is completely wrong. SOME teams play no defense, but that is true in every sport (right Reds fans?) The NFL just had one of the highest scoring weekends in history, is that only because they are great on offense? When you look at the list of QB's in the league, I would tend towards poor defense.
3) There are some thugs left in the league, but not many. We still have Artest and Stephen Jackson, but this is nothing compared to the NFL. Vick, Leonard Little, Pac-Man, the Bengals, the list is enormous. I think that there is something else behind this statement that we all understand...
4) I've explained this above. Also, I do think that RedsManRick was correct so I will quote him here:
"In some ways, it seems that the NBA has realized the value of walks (free throws) and homers (3 pt) and nobody plays small ball anymore. Ironic coming from me, but I prefer the old school style." I would also throw in dunks.
5) The league has discovered the unstoppability of the Pick and Roll. Watch Utah, Phoenix, San Antonio, etc... It is almost impossible to defend. I think people compare the NBA game to college, which is not fair to the NBA. The players are SO much better defensively in the NBA, and so the offenses that teams run in college are ineffective.
6) How is this different than any other sport?

Emin3mShady07
11-26-2008, 12:42 PM
As a rabid NBA fan, I am getting really tired of poeple excuses for not watching. Here are the most common ones that I hear.

1) They travel too much
2) They don't play any defense
3) They are all thugs
4) They can't shoot mid-range jumpers
5) They don't run an offense
6) They have selfish players

My responses:
1) Rules and interpretations change. Look at the difference in the strike zone over the last 25-30 years. They could call holding on every play in football. Also man defense has improved dramatically and so players have had to do things differently.
2) I've already mentioned this, but this is completely wrong. SOME teams play no defense, but that is true in every sport (right Reds fans?) The NFL just had one of the highest scoring weekends in history, is that only because they are great on offense? When you look at the list of QB's in the league, I would tend towards poor defense.
3) There are some thugs left in the league, but not many. We still have Artest and Stephen Jackson, but this is nothing compared to the NFL. Vick, Leonard Little, Pac-Man, the Bengals, the list is enormous. I think that there is something else behind this statement that we all understand...
4) I've explained this above. Also, I do think that RedsManRick was correct so I will quote him here:
"In some ways, it seems that the NBA has realized the value of walks (free throws) and homers (3 pt) and nobody plays small ball anymore. Ironic coming from me, but I prefer the old school style." I would also throw in dunks.
5) The league has discovered the unstoppability of the Pick and Roll. Watch Utah, Phoenix, San Antonio, etc... It is almost impossible to defend. I think people compare the NBA game to college, which is not fair to the NBA. The players are SO much better defensively in the NBA, and so the offenses that teams run in college are ineffective.
6) How is this different than any other sport?

I agree with all of your points except the last one. A selfish player in Basketball is much more detrimental to a team than one in baseball. A selfish baseball player in my mind is a guy that tries to smoke a homerun every at-bat regardless of situation, which to me actually isn't that bad of a thing. In football a selfish player is like TO, but is he really that much of an issue? He demands the ball more than other players, but is usually more productive than others so some good comes with the bad in this case. Hs issue is that he is more of an ***hole than a selfish player. A selfish basketball player could hog the ball, stagnate the offense, and force up shots, three things much worse than the cons of baseball or football, and on top of that he too could be an ***hole and in an NBA locker room with a dozen of guys it can be a lot harder to distance yourself from a guy that you do not like, unlike baseball or football.

Unassisted
11-26-2008, 01:00 PM
I think Ginobili will returned more rested than he has been since he joined the Spurs and is going to go crazy. Their role players kind of scare me, but they are getting valuable playing time. Plus, Duncan makes every player on the court 25-50% better.
Mason and Hill have really started to gel with the copious amounts of playing time they're getting. They may yet make fans forget the players they replaced.

Ginobili contributed 11 in his first game back, with limited minutes. Parker should be back within a week.

They'll need to reel off some consecutive wins to dig out of the hole that's been dug. Last year's Spurs team didn't lose its third game until January. This one has already lost twice that many. The first milestone crossed this week was getting above .500.

improbus
11-26-2008, 05:38 PM
Mason and Hill have really started to gel with the copious amounts of playing time they're getting. They may yet make fans forget the players they replaced.

Ginobili contributed 11 in his first game back, with limited minutes. Parker should be back within a week.

They'll need to reel off some consecutive wins to dig out of the hole that's been dug. Last year's Spurs team didn't lose its third game until January. This one has already lost twice that many. The first milestone crossed this week was getting above .500.
No Duncan led team will ever miss the playoffs. They are too good defensively and know how to win games. I wouldn't be surprised if they reeled off another title this season. Cleveland, Boston, and LA look imposing now, but none of them have anyone who could completely handle Tim B. Duncan.

AtomicDumpling
11-26-2008, 07:58 PM
I think the defense in the NBA is excellent. Even great defense is going to be beaten because almost all the players in the NBA are incredibly talented scorers compared to college players.

Most people that criticize NBA defense are not aware that the rules are different than in college. You are not allowed to double-team anyone unless they have the ball. Defenders cannot camp out in the lane -- there is a defensive 3-second rule. Until recently all forms of zone defense were illegal and assessed a technical foul. No hand-checking is permitted. The shot clock is only 24 seconds so you don't have time to set up elaborate motion offenses with lots of ball movement -- it is "run and gun" with the goal being to quickly isolate a star scorer one-on-one versus a defender. The games are 8 minutes longer than college games so of course you end up with higher scores.

Take Michael Beasley for example. He absolutely shredded college defenses last year. He could score at will against even the best teams. Now he is struggling to do anything in the NBA because he is facing much stiffer defensive pressure.

Guys that are 6'7" or 6'8" are playing center in college, in the NBA many of the shooting guards are that size. It is very rare to get an open shot without a tall, quick man in your face in the NBA.

In college it appears they are playing great defense primarily because there are no superstar offensive players in the NCAA anymore. If you have any offensive talent you go to the NBA or other pro league after your freshman year. If you take away all the good scorers it makes the defenders seem better than they really are.

There are well over 100 players in the NBA or the D-League that could still be playing college hoops. Think about it, if those guys were still in college they would be at Duke, North Carolina, UCLA etc while almost all the guys currently at those schools would be sitting the bench or playing in obscurity at a lesser school in a lesser conference.

Unassisted
11-26-2008, 10:40 PM
No Duncan led team will ever miss the playoffs. They are too good defensively and know how to win games. I wouldn't be surprised if they reeled off another title this season. Cleveland, Boston, and LA look imposing now, but none of them have anyone who could completely handle Tim B. Duncan.
Duncan is getting a lot of credit from both the media and Pop for the progress made by Hill and Mason. He's been taking a very quarterback-like role on the floor getting the new guys into the right spots. Apparently during one timeout a couple of weeks ago, the coaches stood back and let Tim do all of the talking.

Someone asked Bruce Bowen if he thought Duncan might have a future in coaching. Bowen laughed and said that Timmy would never have the patience for it. :)

BTW, I think you're more optimistic about the team's playoff chances than local fans and media. It's still early, though.

Buckeye33
11-26-2008, 11:03 PM
I've watched more and more NBA games the last 3 seasons or so. The game as a whole has become better and better. Players are able to hit the mid range game a lot more then 6-7 years ago and I really think the 19 year old rule has helped the quality of the game. Guys who would have come out after HS are forced to go to college and then figure out they need to stay in college and they get better instead of sitting on an NBA bench.

As far as teams go, the Cavs are now one of the Top 4 teams in the NBA. Lebron is simply not stoppable when he really wants to get to the rim and he now has such a deep team to go along with his skills that I would be surprised if they do not make the NBA finals. A Lakers-Cavs finals would be great and I hope to see it.

The NBA is getting better and better and it's great to see.

improbus
11-27-2008, 10:05 AM
I've watched more and more NBA games the last 3 seasons or so. The game as a whole has become better and better. Players are able to hit the mid range game a lot more then 6-7 years ago and I really think the 19 year old rule has helped the quality of the game. Guys who would have come out after HS are forced to go to college and then figure out they need to stay in college and they get better instead of sitting on an NBA bench.

As far as teams go, the Cavs are now one of the Top 4 teams in the NBA. Lebron is simply not stoppable when he really wants to get to the rim and he now has such a deep team to go along with his skills that I would be surprised if they do not make the NBA finals. A Lakers-Cavs finals would be great and I hope to see it.

The NBA is getting better and better and it's great to see.

The Cavs are frightening right now. They are dynamite defensively and Delonte West is having an amazing start to the season shooting 53%. They have shooters, scorers, and defenders. Plus, all of these blowouts are getting guys like Hickson some minutes which can only help with their depth later in the season. Hopefully they can package some of their expiring contracts (Szczerbiak, Snow for $20 million) and get one more player over the top.

MasonBuzz3
11-27-2008, 09:26 PM
although I'm the other side of the country right now, I still have a little insider information on the Cavaliers. They are definitely setting themselves up with the Lakers and Celtics as the top 3 in the league. The past two game have shown just how deep this season's team is, with Lebron playing a combined 47 minutes. Granted it was against two of the worst teams in the NBA, the supporting cast has shown a lot thus far. Anderson is progressing as he should before the contract issue, Delonte looks like a SG that could play for a championship contender, Mo Williams has been filling that second/third option role that has been needed, and Hickson is showing a lot of promise as a 19 y/o Rook.

The negatives thus far have been Gibson's poor shooting, which you have to think will pass soon, and Ben Wallace being in the starting line-up. Ben can still play effectively, but only for about 18-20 min a night. I can say that Wally will likely be dealt in a package for an athletic 4 by the deadline this season.

The Lebron in 2010 issue will follow this team all season, but the national media is very skewed in this situation. Lebron will not be a Knick nor a Net in 2010, from what I have heard it will come down to Cleveland and Portland. Portland will have an entire team of players coming into their prime at the time, and Cleveland will have a solid seven plus Lebron and room to sign another FA (Bosh?) in 2010.

Happy Thanksgiving all

GoReds33
11-27-2008, 09:52 PM
I really love watching Dwight Howard. The guy is a monster, and it seems like a Magic game is on every night. He is just so talented that he can outplay anybody. I hadn't really watched for it in the past, but I will be watching for the next time the Magic play the Suns. I really think that Dwight Howard is the second coming of Shaq.

WMR
11-27-2008, 10:37 PM
Chris Bosh is my favorite player right now.

Dude is an absolute stud.

Totally underrated/under-appreciated due to where he plays.

GoReds33
11-27-2008, 11:31 PM
Chris Bosh is my favorite player right now.

Dude is an absolute stud.

Totally underrated/under-appreciated due to where he plays.That's a great pick too. Bosh is a stud, and isn't far from being on LeBron's level. I imagine he'll make a nice prize for a team that doesn't win the LeBron bidding war in a couple years.

improbus
11-27-2008, 11:38 PM
I really love watching Dwight Howard. The guy is a monster, and it seems like a Magic game is on every night. He is just so talented that he can outplay anybody. I hadn't really watched for it in the past, but I will be watching for the next time the Magic play the Suns. I really think that Dwight Howard is the second coming of Shaq.

I love Dwight too, but I have a few concerns.
1) He might be a worse FT shooter than Shaq.
2) He has no post moves. NONE. ZERO. Shaq at least had that deadly baby hook to keep guys honest. If Dwight isn't looking to dunk, then you are doing fine defensively.
3) He doesn't have that nasty streak in him that Shaq did. He is more of the David Robinson type, he is a little too nice for my liking. He needs to start pushing people around and bullying.

improbus
11-27-2008, 11:52 PM
Some of the things I love about the NBA.
1) The sheer athletic brilliance and grace that no other sport except maybe soccer can replicate.
2) The ridiculous characters like Rasheed, Ricky Davis, Iverson, Luke Walton, Chris Kaman. Unlike football and baseball which are both too specialized, you can really tell a players personality by watching them play basketball. You can see their face, see their body language, and see their mannerisms. You feel like you KNOW Baron Davis in a way that you can never really KNOW A-Rod.
3) I LOVE the idea that Darius Songaila and Caron Butler are teammates and have to work together. Songaila is a Russian born guy who played ball at Wake Forest and Tough Juice (Caron) had one of the roughest upbringings a child could have. The fact that they have to work together and communicate is fantastic.
4) Charles Barkley on TNT
5) The announcing crews are fantastic: Marv, Kevin Harlan, the hilarious Mark Jackson-Van Gundy team. There is no Troy Aikman-Joe Buck combo that makes me want to move to a small island and reject society every time they talk.
6) The fact that the Pacers always say that they are done playing Jamaal Tinsley, and then halfway through the season they start playing him again. They are like an addict that just can't quit a bad habit.

I could do this for hours.

GoReds33
11-28-2008, 12:42 AM
I love Dwight too, but I have a few concerns.
1) He might be a worse FT shooter than Shaq.
2) He has no post moves. NONE. ZERO. Shaq at least had that deadly baby hook to keep guys honest. If Dwight isn't looking to dunk, then you are doing fine defensively.
3) He doesn't have that nasty streak in him that Shaq did. He is more of the David Robinson type, he is a little too nice for my liking. He needs to start pushing people around and bullying.You make some good points. I know he is a bad free throw shooter. I watched the other night, and apparently he practiced at halftime. I think at one point he was 11/14 or something like that. He really looks like he has a good stroke from the line if he tries.

TeamSelig
11-29-2008, 12:16 AM
6) The fact that the Pacers always say that they are done playing Jamaal Tinsley, and then halfway through the season they start playing him again. They are like an addict that just can't quit a bad habit.


???

This has never happened lol...

TeamSelig
11-29-2008, 12:20 AM
Also to add to the Dwight comments... this guy is still VERY young. If he focused on adding a few offensive moves during an offseason, I think easily has the potential to be a very deadly near unstoppable force. I haven't watched him this season, but on another board, I've heard people say that has developed a few moves but still holds the rep of not having any. Can't say that I've watched him recently though so I can't say.

improbus
11-29-2008, 04:42 PM
Also to add to the Dwight comments... this guy is still VERY young. If he focused on adding a few offensive moves during an offseason, I think easily has the potential to be a very deadly near unstoppable force. I haven't watched him this season, but on another board, I've heard people say that has developed a few moves but still holds the rep of not having any. Can't say that I've watched him recently though so I can't say.

I've seen him in small doses and I haven't seen a whole lot. He has a small righty hook, but his left hand is useless. I wouldn't call the hook a weapon at this point.

improbus
11-29-2008, 05:42 PM
Some other things I love about the NBA:
-Amare's Rec Specs
-Erick Dampier's Kneepads
-Sam Cassell's "dance" after he makes a big shot
-Brian Cardinal
-The Lopez Twins
-Darko
-The Raptors "Truthers" & Free Darko

MasonBuzz3
11-29-2008, 11:28 PM
I've seen him in small doses and I haven't seen a whole lot. He has a small righty hook, but his left hand is useless. I wouldn't call the hook a weapon at this point.

Right now, Dwight pretty much uses his athletic ability and strength to get the job done....but the kid is 22(?) he should develop a more consistent and diverse post game as time goes on. My only worry with him is that the lack of top notch bigs in the league, as of now, will hamper his development as a big man. He would be my number 2 pick behind Bron to start a franchise right now though. 7'0 270 diesel and those ups, DH should be a force within a year or two...too bad Orlando is a dead end for him

WMR
11-30-2008, 12:00 AM
Orlando is a dead end? You must be looking forward to LeBron getting out of that "dead end" in Cleveland.

Tom Servo
12-19-2008, 09:45 PM
http://i42.tinypic.com/2wn0i6d.gif








In other news my Bobcats continue to underwhelm.

cincrazy
12-20-2008, 04:41 PM
http://i42.tinypic.com/2wn0i6d.gif








In other news my Bobcats continue to underwhelm.

How did you feel about the Larry Brown hiring? I think they should have gone in another direction. Mr. Brown has pretty much run his course in the league. And Michael Jordan.... I don't even know where to begin. He's very quickly becoming the next Isiah Thomas, in terms of his front office ability.

Tom Servo
12-20-2008, 07:47 PM
How did you feel about the Larry Brown hiring? I think they should have gone in another direction. Mr. Brown has pretty much run his course in the league. And Michael Jordan.... I don't even know where to begin. He's very quickly becoming the next Isiah Thomas, in terms of his front office ability.
I've never been a Larry Brown fan but I had hopes that maybe he could give the boost he used to give other teams (pre-Knicks) before he moved on a year or two later, like always. It's still early but it seems to be the same old Bobcats. And yeah, Jordan is many things but a top front office man he is not. Sure glad we got Adam Morrison and not Brandon Roy or Rudy Gay.


Also while the trade made sense I really liked Jason Richardson and miss having him here.

MasonBuzz3
12-21-2008, 07:24 PM
didn't mean to offend by calling Orlando a dead end, but Dwight will never win a title with the Magic. their management just will not allow it, signing Rashard Lewis to a max contract, Grant Hill anyone, drafting Redick with that early of a pick? the Magic's front office just isn't up to championship standards. Orlando is a quality team on the court, but aren't really considered a threat by people in the league.


and Lebron won't be leaving Cleveland in 2010, i'd be willing to bet my 2010 salary on that

cincrazy
02-07-2009, 12:16 AM
The Lakers win over the Celtics was impressive without Bynum. But I'm still not sold on L.A. without him. Pau Gasol is a skilled player, but he can be pushed around and is a turnover machine at times. I think Bynum's injury really opens up the door for San Antonio, and the Houston Rockets, who people are sleeping on. I don't like the Hornets at all... I LOVE Chris Paul, but quite frankly, the rest of his supporting cast leaves me less than impressed.

The Bucks have been decimated with injuries. Redd out for year, Bogut missing several weeks. The Knicks are on the fringe of the playoff race, there's talk that they might make a run at Mike Miller, who I think would be a perfect fit in their system. Kobe and Lebron took it to them however...

With that being said, what performance was more impressive? Kobe or Lebron? I'll go with 'Bron. 52 points 9 boards and 11 assists (for those that don't know, they took a rebound away from him and gave it to Ben Wallace)

improbus
02-07-2009, 09:22 AM
The Lakers are vulnerable, but San Antonio still needs to add one more guy. Their bench is thin and aging and I'm not sure that Roger Mason Jr. is ready to hit those daggers that Horry hit for years. I could see them going after someone like Nocioni, who would fit their system perfectly.

Razor Shines
02-07-2009, 10:34 AM
I think the Pacers are getting ready to make a run at the division. They've been laying in wait, now they've got the rest of the league where they want them.

cincrazy
02-07-2009, 12:05 PM
I think the Pacers are getting ready to make a run at the division. They've been laying in wait, now they've got the rest of the league where they want them.

Hey, 5-5 in their last 10 games, improvement :thumbup:

icehole3
02-07-2009, 12:50 PM
I like San Ann in the West, the Lakers unless they get Bynum back are to thin inside. With Bynum its still going to be tough but they can do it. Overall its the winner between Boston and Cleveland both teams have a good mix of inside outside with Cleveland at full strength holding the edge, theyre better inside than Boston. Orlando I think they need another big inside and right now without Nelson of course they have no shot. Sleeper pick watch Miami, Wade is a one man wrecking crew and could upset every team in there. Sleeper pick in the West, Denver, theyre wearing out Nene and Kenyon but if they can somehow cut down those 2 minutes and have them at full strength they could pull it off, the key is the 2 bigs. Its a big boys game in the NBA, who evers the toughest inside wins. I think theyre a little to old but Phoenix if they sneak in can become a thorn because of Shaq.

cincrazy
02-07-2009, 01:58 PM
I like San Ann in the West, the Lakers unless they get Bynum back are to thin inside. With Bynum its still going to be tough but they can do it. Overall its the winner between Boston and Cleveland both teams have a good mix of inside outside with Cleveland at full strength holding the edge, theyre better inside than Boston. Orlando I think they need another big inside and right now without Nelson of course they have no shot. Sleeper pick watch Miami, Wade is a one man wrecking crew and could upset every team in there. Sleeper pick in the West, Denver, theyre wearing out Nene and Kenyon but if they can somehow cut down those 2 minutes and have them at full strength they could pull it off, the key is the 2 bigs. Its a big boys game in the NBA, who evers the toughest inside wins. I think theyre a little to old but Phoenix if they sneak in can become a thorn because of Shaq.

I agree with your Miami assessment. It's been rumored that the Suns are shopping Shaq AND Amare, so I'm not sure they're going to get a chance to do any damage in April. The Suns are bleeding financially and need relief. Miami is one of the teams linked to Amare... if you put Amare with Wade and Beasley.... oh my. The Bulls were also linked to Amare. Not sure, however, how good that would make them. DRose is clearly a player, but DRose and Amare isn't nearly enough.

improbus
02-07-2009, 02:44 PM
I think the Pacers are getting ready to make a run at the division. They've been laying in wait, now they've got the rest of the league where they want them.

A little warning. Danny Granger says that his knee really is hurting him.

icehole3
02-07-2009, 04:25 PM
heard him on Jim Rome the other day, he's building a Bat Cave with a hideaway room and the garage into the mountain and such, I was like damn.

MasonBuzz3
02-08-2009, 01:48 AM
shaping up to be a Cleveland/Boston and Lakers/ Spurs races setting up, who would have guessed it? my biased opinion gives the Cavs the edge in the East due to depth, athletism, and age. the lakers w/o Bynum are soft inside, even with him imo, i could see the spurs challanging them and believe it or not the Suns. a physical big with cause gasol all sorts of issues defensively.

i know i have wine and gold glasses on, but the Cavs have to be the team to beat...at full strength they are tremendously balanced and have a fat contract, Wally, to move.

Razor Shines
02-08-2009, 03:30 AM
heard him on Jim Rome the other day, he's building a Bat Cave with a hideaway room and the garage into the mountain and such, I was like damn.

Who? Granger?

icehole3
02-08-2009, 07:06 AM
Who? Granger?
yep

RBA
02-08-2009, 07:11 PM
Another nice win by the "soft" Lakers againg the Cavs. Not bad 6-0 roadtrip beating the Celtics and Cavs back to back.

cincrazy
02-08-2009, 07:57 PM
Another nice win by the "soft" Lakers againg the Cavs. Not bad 6-0 roadtrip beating the Celtics and Cavs back to back.

They're playing well. But I still think, without Bynum, they will have massive trouble in the playoffs. The Rockets with Yao Ming, the Spurs with Duncan, the Jazz even if Boozer is healthy, and on and on. They still are probably the favorites, but the lack of a true big man will bite them IMO if Bynum doesn't come back.

Razor Shines
02-09-2009, 05:20 AM
The Spurs looked to be hitting a mid season stride. They looked pretty good today against Boston. It's cool that George Hill is getting a lot of playing time. I watched him at IUPUI, and I remember back when my rec league team could've beat IUPUI's varsity squad. Now they've got an alumnus in the NBA playing quality minutes for a title contender. Ron Hunter's done a ton to build that program.

WMR
02-09-2009, 07:24 AM
Uh oh, Razor made a post at 4:20 in an NBA thread. :pimp:

cincrazy
02-09-2009, 08:42 AM
The Spurs looked to be hitting a mid season stride. They looked pretty good today against Boston. It's cool that George Hill is getting a lot of playing time. I watched him at IUPUI, and I remember back when my rec league team could've beat IUPUI's varsity squad. Now they've got an alumnus in the NBA playing quality minutes for a title contender. Ron Hunter's done a ton to build that program.

It's amazing how the Spurs just plug people in and they get the job done. George Hill, Roger Mason Jr., Matt Bonner. Gregg Popovich is an unbelievable coach.

Unassisted
02-09-2009, 01:35 PM
The Lakers are vulnerable, but San Antonio still needs to add one more guy. Their bench is thin and aging and I'm not sure that Roger Mason Jr. is ready to hit those daggers that Horry hit for years.
I know you posted this almost 2 months ago, but I was struck by how much harder it is to agree with now.

Mason nailed a clutch 3 that put the Spurs ahead for good against Boston yesterday. That's the 4th time this season he's hit a game-winning 3.

Hoosier Red
02-09-2009, 03:31 PM
A little warning. Danny Granger says that his knee really is hurting him.

I think its time to add the term Granger to the sports lexicon.

A Granger is when somebody hits a clutch shot in the waning seconds, only to have the other team negate it with the winning shot at the buzzer.

Danny's had at least two that I can remember, (At New Orleans and last night At Washington) and I think more this season.

improbus
02-09-2009, 05:36 PM
I know you posted this almost 2 months ago, but I was struck by how much harder it is to agree with now.

Mason nailed a clutch 3 that put the Spurs ahead for good against Boston yesterday. That's the 4th time this season he's hit a game-winning 3.
Actually, I posted that on Feb. 7th. I still stand by it. Winning regular season games is one thing, but let's see him make those shots later.

goreds2
02-15-2009, 02:47 AM
Sunday February 15th
58th NBA All-Star Game
8 p.m.
U.S. Airways Center
On TNT Network


http://www.nba.com/allstar2009/

TeamSelig
02-15-2009, 06:02 PM
Sad to see Granger not play very well in the 3PT shoot out. He is more of a transition 3PT shooter though.

Trade rumors:

Carter to the Spurs for 1st Rd pick, Bowen, Oberto, Mason Jr., and George Hill. With Bowen and Oberto being waived and probably returning to SA 30 days later (although, what if Bowen signed with the Celtics?!)

improbus
02-15-2009, 08:53 PM
Sad to see Granger not play very well in the 3PT shoot out. He is more of a transition 3PT shooter though.

Trade rumors:

Carter to the Spurs for 1st Rd pick, Bowen, Oberto, Mason Jr., and George Hill. With Bowen and Oberto being waived and probably returning to SA 30 days later (although, what if Bowen signed with the Celtics?!)
The NBA needs to remedy this "waive a player who then resigns with the old team".

WMR
02-15-2009, 09:01 PM
Am I the only one who couldn't care less about any of the All-Star "festivities"??

From the game to the 3 pt contest etc. etc. I just don't care to watch it for one second.

All-Star games should be abolished in professional sports.

Jack Burton
02-15-2009, 10:04 PM
Dunk contest was pretty bland, Howard shouldn't have agreed to be a prop, it's a competition. LeBron stated he will be entering the 2010 dunk contest, he'll probably change his mind but it would definitely add some excitement.

redsfan1966
02-15-2009, 10:46 PM
I actually liked the dunk contest....Nate Robertson dressing up in the green uniform and shoes with the "kryptonite" ball to fight Howard's Superman was cool...

improbus
02-16-2009, 12:28 PM
Am I the only one who couldn't care less about any of the All-Star "festivities"??

From the game to the 3 pt contest etc. etc. I just don't care to watch it for one second.

All-Star games should be abolished in professional sports.

I like the competitions more than the game, but I do agree that all All Star games are a waste of time. I really enjoyed the game of H-O-R-S-E before the festivities started. To me, that is where you bring back the old timers. Who wouldn't love to see Rex Chapman vs. Larry Bird vs. Mark Price playing HORSE?

TeamSelig
02-17-2009, 02:54 PM
Celebrity/Legend horse would be cool. Could even stick guys the somewhat newly retired stars like Reggie Miller in it and it would be entertaining.

I think a small half court 3 on 3 tournament would be kinda cool. 1 NBA, 1 WNBA [or celeb], 1 legend. Not a fan of the shoot out thing they do now because you have to hit a half court shot which seems to just be based mostly off luck.

Revering4Blue
02-17-2009, 07:54 PM
Trade sends Hornets’ Chandler to Oklahoma City

By JEFF LATZKE, AP Sports Writer 1 hour, 1 minute ago


The Oklahoma City Thunder have acquired center Tyson Chandler from New Orleans in a deal that sends veterans Joe Smith and Chris Wilcox to the Hornets.


OKLAHOMA CITY (AP)—All-Star point guard Chris Paul could knife his way into the lane, lob the ball up in the air and, almost without fail, Tyson Chandler would be there to slam it down with two hands.

It was the signature move of New Orleans’ thrilling young inside-outside tandem, with the two teaming up for more than 100 alley-oops last season during the Hornets’ surprising run to the No. 2 seed in the Western Conference and a spot in the conference semifinals.

Now, the Hornets will have to find a new crowd-pleasing calling card.

Chandler was dealt to the Oklahoma City Thunder on Tuesday in a trade that brings veterans Joe Smith and Chris Wilcox to the Hornets and could give New Orleans some cap room next season heading into the first year of Paul’s new four-year, $68 million contract.

New Orleans also got the rights to DeVon Hardin, a second-round pick out of California in last year’s draft who never signed with Oklahoma City.

“We were able to get great depth, leadership and experience by making this trade,” Hornets general manager Jeff Bower said in a statement. “We felt we needed to increase our overall play of the front line and Chris Wilcox is a young, athletic player that can score and fit well in our system. We will be able to take advantage of his athleticism and style of play.

“Joe provides us with much needed depth and someone who can be an integral part of our rotation.”


Chandler’s numbers had dropped off even before he missed the Hornets’ last 12 games with a sprained left ankle. He’s averaging 8.8 points and 8.3 rebounds this season, after going for 11.8 points and 11.8 rebounds per game last season.

Wilcox’s averages of 8.4 points and 5.3 rebounds fell off, along with his playing time, since the Thunder signed restricted free agent Nenad Krstic on Dec. 30. He had a season-high 23 points on New Year’s Eve, before Krstic got into the rotation, but saw his time on the court fall off to practically nothing within a week. He played in only one of Oklahoma City’s last five games.

Smith, the No. 1 pick in the 1995 draft, has been fighting through injury issues of his own. A balky left knee kept him out of the Thunder’s lineup for nearly a month before he returned to play in four of the last five games before the All-Star break. He has averaged 6.6 points and 4.5 rebounds in 36 games.

The Hornets and Thunder were to play Tuesday night in Oklahoma City.

Chandler, who played one season in Oklahoma City during the Hornets’ temporary relocation after Hurricane Katrina, brings the franchise a proven talent inside after it tried for years to draft and develop a front-line center. The former Seattle SuperSonics used first-round picks on Robert Swift, Mouhamed Sene and Johan Petro in recent years and have another 7-footer developing overseas in last year’s 20th overall pick, Serge Ibaka.

“We are excited to add a young, defensive-minded big man that we feel can help us now and in the future,” Thunder general manager Sam Presti said in a statement. “Tyson has ties to the Oklahoma City community and we are excited to have him with us as we continue to build our organization.”

AP Sports Writer Brett Martel contributed to this report from New Orleans.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AkJQYmF1tBvgiAIHIRMo80E5nYcB?slug=ap-thunder-hornetstrade&prov=ap&type=lgns

This is an interesting deal that may pay dividends for the Hornets.

Razor Shines
02-18-2009, 12:59 AM
Dwight Howard is silly. How could they not have doubled him? And in another note WilyMo's hero hit the 3 that sent the game into overtime.

It's good to see that the Suns scored 140 tonight, the world is not the same when a team led by Steve Nash tries to play half court basketball. I guess Alvin Gentry is going to follow D'Antoni's style of play. My only question is: What the hell was the point of getting rid of D'Antoni? He's the best at the up and down style of play.

TeamSelig
02-18-2009, 07:32 PM
They didn't get rid of him, he signed with NY.

Also another trade, Nocioni & Gooden to to Sac for Salmons and Miller. Good trade for the Bulls IMO. A bit too many guards now, but there are rumors of trading Hughes for Mike James and Etan Thomas. Also read something about dumping Hinrich to Minnesota [I think it was]

Razor Shines
02-18-2009, 10:53 PM
They didn't get rid of him, he signed with NY.

Also another trade, Nocioni & Gooden to to Sac for Salmons and Miller. Good trade for the Bulls IMO. A bit too many guards now, but there are rumors of trading Hughes for Mike James and Etan Thomas. Also read something about dumping Hinrich to Minnesota [I think it was]

Yeah, but Kerr made it pretty clear that he didn't want D'Antoni back, and/or he didn't want the Suns to play D'Antoni's style of play. Now after a little more than half a season they're going back to what they have done for last several years.

cincrazy
02-19-2009, 03:25 AM
The Suns are morons. They thought they could let D'Antoni walk and BOOM, they'd be the Spurs or the Pistons because Terry Porter is the coach. They are what they are, which is a running team. You can't remake that overnight and expect to win a title. Apparently when MJ passed the ball to Kerr in Game 6 of the 97 Finals he also passed along some of his management expertise, unfortunately.

TeamSelig
02-19-2009, 11:33 AM
I don't think it was that bad of an idea. They obviously couldn't win the ship with d'antoni and the run-n-gun so they tried to improve their weakness by hiring a guy who supposedly specializes in that. Too bad Porter was a terrible coach. Kerr should have played to their strengths but hindsight is 20/20.

cincrazy
02-19-2009, 01:43 PM
I don't think it was that bad of an idea. They obviously couldn't win the ship with d'antoni and the run-n-gun so they tried to improve their weakness by hiring a guy who supposedly specializes in that. Too bad Porter was a terrible coach. Kerr should have played to their strengths but hindsight is 20/20.

See, I tend to disagree. I don't think they were incapable of winning a title the way that they were. Hell, if two of their best players don't get suspended because of an asinine rule about players coming off the bench, even a FOOT, they probably beat SA a few years ago. Also, last year they were on pace for 60+ wins I think when they decided to overhaul their roster. IMO, there's no reason they couldn't have made it last year. Granted, their window was closing. But instead of letting it close naturally, I'm afraid they slammed it shut.

cincrazy
02-19-2009, 02:40 PM
According to si.com Shaq may be on his way to Cleveland. They are discussing Ben Wallace and Sasha Pavlovic for Shaq, but apparently instead of Wallace Phoenix wants Wally thrown in, which makes sense with his expiring contract.

WMR
02-19-2009, 03:43 PM
LeBron and Shaq would be fascinating to watch.

WVRed
02-19-2009, 04:30 PM
LeBron and Shaq would be fascinating to watch.

Unfortunately, it's not happening though.:(

NorrisHopper30
02-19-2009, 05:34 PM
Watch out for the JAZZ. Celtics are going down tonight, the Jazz and D-Will are on fire.

MasonBuzz3
02-20-2009, 01:09 AM
the Cavs wanted Shaq badly, feeling it was basically a guaranteed trophy if the Diesel came to Cleveland. But ultimately, if it would have been Wally in the deal instead of Ben, it would have essentially cost the Cavs 34(?) mil next year for Shaq. Danny Gilbert wants a title and the economy isnt hurting him too bad, but thats a lot of loot for for a 38 y/o big man.

Ultimately, the Cavs felt that they can definitely win the East this season as is. They are tied in the loss column with Boston even with the big injuries suffered. Getting Delonte back will be almost like a trade anyways.

Sign a vet big like Mikki Moore or Joe Smith and Boston shouldn't pose too much of a threat. In the end, the league as a whole is terrified of this economy and this wasnt the time to be making trades. The Cavs, as one of the few not worried about the economy, have a much better chance to make some serious moves this offseason....Bosh anyone?

NorrisHopper30
02-20-2009, 12:39 PM
Watch out for the JAZZ. Celtics are going down tonight, the Jazz and D-Will are on fire.

Told ya so :D.

Revering4Blue
02-22-2009, 11:08 AM
Nocioni & Gooden to to Sac for Salmons and Miller. Good trade for the Bulls IMO.

Love the deal from the Bulls perspective, as well. I also like the Hughes and Wilcox to the Knicks deals.

Salmons and Miller are expected to play against the Pacers today. With Granger and Dunleavey out, it may not be much of a game. Oh, well, it looks like another trip to the lottery for the Pacers. If so, I hope they can land Ricky Rubio.

WVRed
02-22-2009, 12:08 PM
Love the deal from the Bulls perspective, as well. I also like the Hughes and Wilcox to the Knicks deals.

Salmons and Miller are expected to play against the Pacers today. With Granger and Dunleavey out, it may not be much of a game. Oh, well, it looks like another trip to the lottery for the Pacers. If so, I hope they can land Ricky Rubio.

From what I have read, I don't think Rubio is coming out this year.

TeamSelig
02-22-2009, 03:55 PM
He is set for the 2010 draft, as far as I know.

I wish we could finally win a lottery but I doubt that would ever happen. Blake Griffin would be perfect.

Red
02-27-2009, 08:32 AM
The Suns are morons. They thought they could let D'Antoni walk and BOOM, they'd be the Spurs or the Pistons because Terry Porter is the coach. They are what they are, which is a running team. You can't remake that overnight and expect to win a title. Apparently when MJ passed the ball to Kerr in Game 6 of the 97 Finals he also passed along some of his management expertise, unfortunately.

The owner is the one to blame in all this, not Kerr.

The owner didn't want to pay Marion who was probably the Suns best player. Not on the stat page but on the basketball court, you know, where defense matters.

The owner has given up, for essentially nothing, the draft rights to Luol Deng, Rajon Rondo and a couple of other guys over the past few years because he didn't want to pay first round money. The Suns have been going out of their way to not restock the cupboard.

When the owner forced the Shaq trade the days of being an elite run and gun team were over. Criticizing the Suns for not playing a certain way is like saying last years Bengals would have been a success if Marvin Lewis had just game planned differently.

Keeping D'Antoni would have done little for this team. You can't win if you don't play defense and you especially can't win if you don't have anyone willing to play defense. This Suns roster has turned into a disaster. You can almost bet that Shaq, Grant Hill and perhaps even Nash will be elsewhere next season.

I just wonder when the cheapskate owner will fire Kerr and blame him.

Revering4Blue
02-28-2009, 08:49 PM
The owner is the one to blame in all this, not Kerr.

The owner didn't want to pay Marion who was probably the Suns best player. Not on the stat page but on the basketball court, you know, where defense matters.

The owner has given up, for essentially nothing, the draft rights to Luol Deng, Rajon Rondo and a couple of other guys over the past few years because he didn't want to pay first round money. The Suns have been going out of their way to not restock the cupboard.

When the owner forced the Shaq trade the days of being an elite run and gun team were over. Criticizing the Suns for not playing a certain way is like saying last years Bengals would have been a success if Marvin Lewis had just game planned differently.

Keeping D'Antoni would have done little for this team. You can't win if you don't play defense and you especially can't win if you don't have anyone willing to play defense. This Suns roster has turned into a disaster. You can almost bet that Shaq, Grant Hill and perhaps even Nash will be elsewhere next season.

I just wonder when the cheapskate owner will fire Kerr and blame him.

Exactly.

Sarver also forced Kerr to deal Kurt Thomas and 2 first round picks to the Sonics for a second round pick, just to save $$$, which helped to facilitate the Shaq deal.

IMHO, I don't believe any other NBA coach does a worse job of utilizing a bench than D'Antoni--aside from Nuggets coach George Karl, who is finally catching on--so it is possible that needed depth would not have made a difference. Depth is overrated in college b-ball with all of the TV timeouts and only 40 minute games, but you cannot win an NBA championship at a break-neck pace playing only eight players, especially if one of them only logs three minutes a game.

Revering4Blue
02-28-2009, 08:58 PM
He is set for the 2010 draft, as far as I know.

I wish we could finally win a lottery but I doubt that would ever happen. Blake Griffin would be perfect.

James Harden would be a nice fit, too.

If not for a tie-breaker, which placed the Pacers in the playoffs in '93 and the Magic in the lottery, which they won, the Pacers would have had the first pick in the '93 draft and a chance to draft Chris Webber, Penny Hardaway or Jamal Mashburn. Couple that with the arrival of Larry Brown in '93, and who knows what may have happened.

cincrazy
02-28-2009, 11:21 PM
Exactly.

Sarver also forced Kerr to deal Kurt Thomas and 2 first round picks to the Sonics for a second round pick, just to save $$$, which helped to facilitate the Shaq deal.

IMHO, I don't believe any other NBA coach does a worse job of utilizing a bench than D'Antoni--aside from Nuggets coach George Karl, who is finally catching on--so it is possible that needed depth would not have made a difference. Depth is overrated in college b-ball with all of the TV timeouts and only 40 minute games, but you cannot win an NBA championship at a break-neck pace playing only eight players, especially if one of them only logs three minutes a game.

I don't think it's accurate to say you can't win a championship playing D'antoni's way. As you mentioned, Sarver is a cheapo. With that being said, D'antoni never had much of a bench to work with. As I've stated previously, that team should have won a championship, and Stern screwed them out of one.

TeamSelig
03-08-2009, 01:55 PM
I've been reading some stuff about Ricky Rubio. He has a 6 million dollar buy out for his contract. NBA teams are only allowed to pay for 500k of it, so he would have to foot the rest of the bill -- aka not going to happen.

But, his agent has been negotiating it down to 3-4 million, but I'm still not sure he would want to pay that.

Roy Tucker
03-12-2009, 01:24 PM
I used to be a fan of Bill Simmons, but I thought he's slipped a notch in the last year or two. He's funny with bad team, not so much with good teams. With Boston teams having a run this decade, he doesn't have as much to work with.

But he's in rare form in this column on the Clips...

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090311&sportCat=nba

cincrazy
03-14-2009, 10:26 PM
I used to be a fan of Bill Simmons, but I thought he's slipped a notch in the last year or two. He's funny with bad team, not so much with good teams. With Boston teams having a run this decade, he doesn't have as much to work with.

But he's in rare form in this column on the Clips...

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090311&sportCat=nba

I still love reading him. I agree, he was at his best when his teams were the worst. But he's still good. I think he's just become so preoccupied with writing books and doing podcasts and all that other stuff that his columns have suffered a bit in the process. He doesn't write as often, and every now and then he tends to lose his touch.

But he still gets an A from me ;)

icehole3
03-27-2009, 07:32 AM
Lebron on 60 minutes, unreal shot

lMJ7Q0aiV4I

MasonBuzz3
03-27-2009, 04:11 PM
shoots those after practice and before each game..makes an unhuman amount of them

NorrisHopper30
03-27-2009, 04:18 PM
Just got home from the Lakers @ Pistons game!

jmac
03-28-2009, 06:23 PM
Lebron on 60 minutes, unreal shot

lMJ7Q0aiV4I

That is one strong underhanded toss right there ! :thumbup:

improbus
04-01-2009, 08:44 PM
That is one strong underhanded toss right there ! :thumbup:

NBA guys practice those shots everyday. It is actually a wonder that players don't make more half-court shots. I remember watching a story on Rex Chapman who used to practice fade-away 3's while falling off of his back foot out of bounds from half court. This is a great source of gambling...

Unassisted
04-02-2009, 11:22 AM
This should be a fun couple of weeks to watch the playoff seedings in the West get sorted out. It's a real logjam after the Lakers. The Spurs could end up seeded anywhere from 2nd to 7th.

cincrazy
04-02-2009, 12:51 PM
This should be a fun couple of weeks to watch the playoff seedings in the West get sorted out. It's a real logjam after the Lakers. The Spurs could end up seeded anywhere from 2nd to 7th.

My best friend is a Rockets fan, it's amazing to see how one day they're 2nd, the next day 4th, the next day 6th, etc. The two through eight seeds are separated by FOUR games. Incredible

Boston Red
04-02-2009, 01:17 PM
How can the Jazz be invincible at home and so utterly, dispicably awful on the road? Do they play a different game in SLC? Are the dimensions different? Unreal.

improbus
04-02-2009, 09:59 PM
How can the Jazz be invincible at home and so utterly, dispicably awful on the road? Do they play a different game in SLC? Are the dimensions different? Unreal.

Great crowd. In fact, their crowd is considered the most vile and foul mouthed in the league (who would have known). Also, throw in the altitude and they win alot of games.

Boston Red
04-02-2009, 10:29 PM
Maybe they can win in Denver tonight, then. They're used to the altitude. It's maddening how bad they are on the road.

MasonBuzz3
04-03-2009, 12:19 AM
How can the Jazz be invincible at home and so utterly, dispicably awful on the road? Do they play a different game in SLC? Are the dimensions different? Unreal.

Home court in the NBA is one of the biggest advantages in all of sports. As previously mentioned, the Utah fans are some of the most passionate fans in the league...what else is there to do in Utah really?

Boston Red
04-03-2009, 12:51 AM
Yeah, home court advantage is huge, but Utah's road woes are insane. 1-15 against teams with winning records. Currently laying another road egg. Pathetic.

Oh, and Carlos Boozer sucks. No way he should start over Paul Millsap.

TeamSelig
04-03-2009, 10:32 AM
Personally I think the main difference between a road/home game is not necessarily the road effecting the players, but the referees.

MasonBuzz3
04-03-2009, 04:33 PM
Personally I think the main difference between a road/home game is not necessarily the road effecting the players, but the referees.

nba refs are the worst officials in all of professional sports.com

the inconsistancy between the top officials and the lower rated officials is laughable for a sport with the greatest athletes in the world. this will be a major issue in the summer of 2011 when the CBA is up

BuckeyeRed27
04-03-2009, 09:16 PM
The Jazz are the team I follow and the home/road thing has been a huge issue for several seasons now. Really ever since Stockton/Malone left. It really is unexplainable. The D on the road is just awful. I mean playing a good team on the road is almost an automatic loss and they often times lose to bad teams as well. It's amazing they won in Houston in the playoffs two years ago.

I disagree about the Boozer/Milsap right now. Milsap was getting pretty run down. His last 5 games before Boozer came back were way below what he had been putting up.

Boston Red
04-03-2009, 09:59 PM
Maybe, but they'd be better off throwing Matt Harpring out there instead of Boozer most nights, and Matt Harpring isn't exactly good. Boozer has been a complete liability most nights since coming back from his injury. I'm fairly certain he couldn't guard me.

improbus
04-05-2009, 08:53 PM
Maybe, but they'd be better off throwing Matt Harpring out there instead of Boozer most nights, and Matt Harpring isn't exactly good. Boozer has been a complete liability most nights since coming back from his injury. I'm fairly certain he couldn't guard me.
Boozer's return was one of the many reasons for my fantasy teams death. He took minutes away from Paul Millsap.

NorrisHopper30
04-05-2009, 10:17 PM
Stay strong Utah, tough schedule incoming.

15fan
04-06-2009, 11:41 AM
...what else is there to do in Utah really?

Probably depends on whether or not you're into polygamy.

Revering4Blue
04-06-2009, 08:59 PM
Bad news for the Spurs.


Spurs' Manu Ginobili out for playoffs with ankle injury

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=535853

BuckeyeRed27
04-06-2009, 09:21 PM
Bad news for the Spurs.



http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=535853

Just read that. They will be lucky to make it out of the first round.

improbus
04-07-2009, 11:12 AM
Manu has been playing on a bad wheel. Duncan's knees have been bothering him, and their supporting cast hasn't been as strong as it was in the past. I wouldn't be too surprised if they sit Duncan out and throw this season out the window. The Spurs think in terms of titles, not decent playoff runs.

So, who is left to challenge the Lakers in the West? Maybe the Rockets? Maybe Utah? Now Orleans?

BuckeyeRed27
04-07-2009, 12:23 PM
Manu has been playing on a bad wheel. Duncan's knees have been bothering him, and their supporting cast hasn't been as strong as it was in the past. I wouldn't be too surprised if they sit Duncan out and throw this season out the window. The Spurs think in terms of titles, not decent playoff runs.

So, who is left to challenge the Lakers in the West? Maybe the Rockets? Maybe Utah? Now Orleans?

I don't think any team in the West can beat LA in a 7 game series.
Houston can match up down low but is going to get killed in the back court.
New Orleans isn't deep enough.
Portland doesn't have the experience.
Utah and Denver have the best chances, but Utah can't win on the road and Denver is so erratic although is playing very well right now.

MasonBuzz3
04-07-2009, 01:14 PM
the one team that Lakers' fans do not want to see is the Portland Trailblazers. Los Lakers traditionally do not play well in Portland and the young Blazers are athletic and talented enough to present problems for any team, think Boston-Atlanta last year

leakbrewergator
04-07-2009, 05:36 PM
Die hard Laker fan here. Really, there is no team in the West that scares us. It could have been San Antonio until the recent news of Manu.

Cleveland w/ HCA, if we meet in the Finals will be the toughest challenge. Right now, Cleveland only has 1 home loss (against the Lakers.)

NorrisHopper30
04-07-2009, 05:58 PM
Utah, Denver, Houston and Portland are the only teams in the West that can beat LA in a 7 games series, but all of them are highly unlikely. As a Jazz fan, I always feel we can win a series if we steal a game on the road. Not likely, but possible!

VR
04-08-2009, 01:15 AM
the one team that Lakers' fans do not want to see is the Portland Trailblazers. Los Lakers traditionally do not play well in Portland and the young Blazers are athletic and talented enough to present problems for any team, think Boston-Atlanta last year

I agree. They have really come together as a team, and LaMarcus Aldridge has been a 2nd half All-Star. They could be very, very dangerous in the playoffs.....especially if Ginobli and Bynum aren't in the mix.

Cyclone792
04-08-2009, 10:19 AM
Anybody ever been to any Pacers games at Conseco Fieldhouse? If so, any suggestions or tips?

A buddy and I are thinking about heading up there on Monday night just to see LeBron play since the Cavs will be playing at Indiana. It's probably been about 15 years since I've been to an NBA game. How are the ushers at the games? Is it possible to move around seats much at all? We're thinking about just buying $10 seats to get in the building since the seating quality with $25 seats doesn't seem to be much better (at least the available $25 seats - the good $25 seats in center court appear to be soldout).

leakbrewergator
04-08-2009, 02:29 PM
Utah, Denver, Houston and Portland are the only teams in the West that can beat LA in a 7 games series, but all of them are highly unlikely. As a Jazz fan, I always feel we can win a series if we steal a game on the road. Not likely, but possible!

Utah is the only team that can make it interesting. Denver, Houston and Portland have no chance whatsoever.

cincrazy
04-08-2009, 02:59 PM
I would never underestimate a Tim Duncan-led team. Or Gregg Popovich, for that matter. Their odds are greatly diminished, but I wouldn't just automatically assume they're an easy out, especially when it comes to facing a team not named LA.

MasonBuzz3
04-08-2009, 04:10 PM
Anybody ever been to any Pacers games at Conseco Fieldhouse? If so, any suggestions or tips?

A buddy and I are thinking about heading up there on Monday night just to see LeBron play since the Cavs will be playing at Indiana. It's probably been about 15 years since I've been to an NBA game. How are the ushers at the games? Is it possible to move around seats much at all? We're thinking about just buying $10 seats to get in the building since the seating quality with $25 seats doesn't seem to be much better (at least the available $25 seats - the good $25 seats in center court appear to be soldout).

I havent ever been to a Cavs-Pacers game at Conseco, but I have been to a couple of Cavs road games. You would be surprised at the amount of Lebron/Cavs jerseys that will be there. It is not a typical game, I would doubt that there would be many open seats to move around in.

Also, it looks like that game is designated as "College Night" with $10 tickets in some of the other sections. Most teams don't really check to make sure you are a student or whatever on these nights

That being said, I think that you should definitely go. NBA games are much different in person than watching on TV, especially if you get to see one of the league's premirer teams and stars

Cyclone792
04-08-2009, 05:41 PM
I havent ever been to a Cavs-Pacers game at Conseco, but I have been to a couple of Cavs road games. You would be surprised at the amount of Lebron/Cavs jerseys that will be there. It is not a typical game, I would doubt that there would be many open seats to move around in.

Also, it looks like that game is designated as "College Night" with $10 tickets in some of the other sections. Most teams don't really check to make sure you are a student or whatever on these nights

That being said, I think that you should definitely go. NBA games are much different in person than watching on TV, especially if you get to see one of the league's premirer teams and stars

Cool thanks, yea we're looking into it. I never got to see Jordan play live, and I regret not being able to do that. I used to follow the NBA heavily in the 90s, but not so much anymore. But anytime I have an opportunity to see a guy like LeBron play in person I'd like to try to get out there.

Razor Shines
04-09-2009, 04:07 AM
Anybody ever been to any Pacers games at Conseco Fieldhouse? If so, any suggestions or tips?

A buddy and I are thinking about heading up there on Monday night just to see LeBron play since the Cavs will be playing at Indiana. It's probably been about 15 years since I've been to an NBA game. How are the ushers at the games? Is it possible to move around seats much at all? We're thinking about just buying $10 seats to get in the building since the seating quality with $25 seats doesn't seem to be much better (at least the available $25 seats - the good $25 seats in center court appear to be soldout).

Yeah, I used to go quite a bit. I remember being able to move fairly easily. You're supposed to have to show tickets to get onto the Club level, but my friend and I have gotten in there without having to show a ticket before.

If it's empty you can move to the lower level fairly easily.

I think Conseco is a great place to watch a game.

Cyclone792
04-10-2009, 10:42 AM
Yeah, I used to go quite a bit. I remember being able to move fairly easily. You're supposed to have to show tickets to get onto the Club level, but my friend and I have gotten in there without having to show a ticket before.

If it's empty you can move to the lower level fairly easily.

I think Conseco is a great place to watch a game.

Thanks for the tips, Razor. We just picked up tickets this morning so we'll be heading up Monday night for the game. We'll probably sit in our seats in the first half or so, then take a look around and see if we can move lower in the second half.

MasonBuzz3
04-11-2009, 02:39 AM
I agree. They have really come together as a team, and LaMarcus Aldridge has been a 2nd half All-Star. They could be very, very dangerous in the playoffs.....especially if Ginobli and Bynum aren't in the mix.

Tonight back up our opinion with the big win by Portland at home. Also, tonight proved that Pau Gasol is the Lakers' MVP rather than Kobe Bean.

Cavs clinched the 1 seed in the East tonight and may have locked up the 1 overall as well....a good night

jmac
04-11-2009, 11:44 AM
Orlando may have lost their chance at a 2 seed with a home loss to Knicks. :eek:

Unassisted
04-11-2009, 07:28 PM
I would never underestimate a Tim Duncan-led team. Or Gregg Popovich, for that matter. Their odds are greatly diminished, but I wouldn't just automatically assume they're an easy out, especially when it comes to facing a team not named LA.FWIW, you're way more optimistic than most fans around San Antonio. Tim jokingly said yesterday that he's not "playing on one leg" as Tony Parker told an interviewer earlier in the week, he's "playing on half of a leg." Even though he said it with a wink, folks around here fear there's more than a little bit of truth in his joke.

Some of the local sports talk guys are already predicting that it's clear Manu and Tim have both peaked, so they look for Tony Parker to eventually sign with the Lakers. That way Tony's work will be closer to wife Eva's work.

BTW, I read in the morning paper that tickets for the last few regular season games are selling BELOW face vallue, which is unheard of around here. In addition, playoff tickets are going unsold. Window ledges in San Antonio are getting crowded with NBA fans. ;)

WMR
04-11-2009, 07:52 PM
Tonight back up our opinion with the big win by Portland at home. Also, tonight proved that Pau Gasol is the Lakers' MVP rather than Kobe Bean.

Cavs clinched the 1 seed in the East tonight and may have locked up the 1 overall as well....a good night

uhhh.... what?

Kobe is the Lakers MVP. C'mon now.

VR
04-11-2009, 09:35 PM
Tonight back up our opinion with the big win by Portland at home. Also, tonight proved that Pau Gasol is the Lakers' MVP rather than Kobe Bean.

Cavs clinched the 1 seed in the East tonight and may have locked up the 1 overall as well....a good night

One of the best games I've seen in awhile, and further evidence the Blazers are for real.
Brandon Roy is leading this team like a seasoned veteran....the offense is clicking....and the defense can be downright nasty. Blocking Kobe above the rim is no small task....and the Blazers did it twice last night. Gasol was way overmatched on the defensive end.

Revering4Blue
04-12-2009, 11:09 AM
Orlando may have lost their chance at a 2 seed with a home loss to Knicks. :eek:

Yup.

They also lost to a Devin Harris-less Nets leam last night, losing Hedo to an injury in the process. Not looking good.


How do you explain the Jazz's inability to finish games?

When they are on, they are capable of knocking off anyone. But they lost at home to the T-Wolves--no Al Jefferson-- two weeks ago.

And last night I watched a great deal of their game against a severely depleted Warriors team, which they lost at home, no less. The Warriors were missing Jackson, Maggette, Crawford, Ellis, Bellineli and Wright and had no business knocking off a healthy Jazz team on the road.

One other note:

The Nuggets are obviously a better team with Billups, but Chris Andersen has more than adequately replaced Marcus Camby, and he isn't bogging down the offense by jacking up ill-advised jumpers, either. But without a healthy Kenyon Martin, whom was unavailable against the Lakers the other night, they won't last long in the playoffs against the Mavs or a healthy Hornets team. That much is certain.

MasonBuzz3
04-13-2009, 01:52 AM
uhhh.... what?

Kobe is the Lakers MVP. C'mon now.

I would say that Kobe is the Lakers' best player, but Pau is their MVP. Kobe is going to get his 20-40 points per night, rather it be with 18 or 40 shots, but Gasol is the key to their success.

WMR
04-13-2009, 02:32 AM
So you're saying that they could go further in the playoffs with just Pau than with just Kobe? I'm sorry but I don't agree with that at all.

Kobe can win a playoff series all by himself.

Razor Shines
04-13-2009, 03:21 AM
So you're saying that they could go further in the playoffs with just Pau than with just Kobe? I'm sorry but I don't agree with that at all.

Kobe can win a playoff series all by himself.

Yeah, Pau is a really good player and the Lakers need him to get to the Finals, but Kobe is one of the all time great players in the NBA. He creates scoring opportunities for Pau and the rest of the team just by standing on the court. I don't like the Lakers, but with Bynum back I have a hard time seeing anybody beat them in a 7 game series.

texasdave
04-13-2009, 09:03 AM
There are far too many conspiracies floating around in sports these days, but if anyone watched Michael Finley's three-pointer that won the game in Sacramento last night you can see how those conspiracy seeds get planted. I think you could probably only find three people in this country that felt that Finley got that shot off in time. Unfortunately, those three people happened to be refereeing that particular game. It seems difficult to believe that such a call can fall into the category of 'honest mistake'. Get the call right.

leakbrewergator
04-13-2009, 11:09 AM
^^^ I think you're forgetting all the Spurs' fans. I'm pretty sure they felt like Finley got it off in time.

leakbrewergator
04-13-2009, 11:11 AM
I would say that Kobe is the Lakers' best player, but Pau is their MVP. Kobe is going to get his 20-40 points per night, rather it be with 18 or 40 shots, but Gasol is the key to their success.

I'm sorry but that's a ridiculous statement. Kobe is the Lakers' best player AND MVP. No one on the Lakers roster can replace Kobe. If we lose Pau, we have Bynum, and Odom to handle the rebounding and scoring and Luke to handle the assists from the post.

cincrazy
04-13-2009, 11:31 AM
FWIW, you're way more optimistic than most fans around San Antonio. Tim jokingly said yesterday that he's not "playing on one leg" as Tony Parker told an interviewer earlier in the week, he's "playing on half of a leg." Even though he said it with a wink, folks around here fear there's more than a little bit of truth in his joke.

Some of the local sports talk guys are already predicting that it's clear Manu and Tim have both peaked, so they look for Tony Parker to eventually sign with the Lakers. That way Tony's work will be closer to wife Eva's work.

BTW, I read in the morning paper that tickets for the last few regular season games are selling BELOW face vallue, which is unheard of around here. In addition, playoff tickets are going unsold. Window ledges in San Antonio are getting crowded with NBA fans. ;)

Every year I say, "The Spurs are too old, they can't run with the young horses, it's a first round exit this year." And every year they would either win the title, or come damn close. So since then I've made a deal with myself to never ever ever ever ever EVER count them out, because I constantly look like a fool :)

Unassisted
04-13-2009, 01:55 PM
^^^ I think you're forgetting all the Spurs' fans. I'm pretty sure they felt like Finley got it off in time.It was a close call that couldn't be reviewed. When I saw it on TV in real-time, like the refs, it looked like Finley got the shot off "in time" to me. The Spurs TV crew had to go through about 3 replay angles to come up with one that included the shot clock. It's not too surprising that the refs didn't have a vantage point on the shot clock, either.

I saw the Spurs get burned by one of those unreviewable close calls at the end of the game a couple of weeks back. This one just evened up the ledger for this season. ;)

MasonBuzz3
04-14-2009, 02:12 AM
with the regular season basically over, I was wondering what everybody's awards would look like:
Rookie of the Year
Most Improved Player
Coach of the Year
MVP

All-NBA team if you want

MasonBuzz3
04-14-2009, 02:22 AM
ROY: Kevin Love MIN
Most Improved: Danny Granger IND
Coach of the Year: Mike Brown CLE
MVP: LeBron James CLE
Exec of the Year: Danny Ferry CLE....Mo Williams for Damon Jones, really?

All-NBA:
C: D. Howard
F: LeBron
F: DWade
G: Kobe
G: CP3

DWade isnt a F, but it would be a crime to not have all three of these guards on the first team for a forward like P. Pierce or somebody

WMR
04-14-2009, 02:26 AM
ROY: Kevin Love MIN
Most Improved: Danny Granger IND
Coach of the Year: Mike Brown CLE
MVP: LeBron James CLE
Exec of the Year: Danny Ferry CLE....Mo Williams for Damon Jones, really?

All-NBA:
C: D. Howard
F: LeBron
F: DWade
G: Kobe
G: CP3

DWade isnt a F, but it would be a crime to not have all three of these guards on the first team for a forward like P. Pierce or somebody

LOL no wonder you're running down Kobe.

MasonBuzz3
04-14-2009, 02:47 AM
LOL no wonder you're running down Kobe.

not "running Kobe down," just feel that Gasol's play is more important to the Lakers winning a title similarly that Mo Williams' play will dictate the Cavs' success...that and the Cavs sign my paychecks

WMR
04-14-2009, 04:00 AM
not "running Kobe down," just feel that Gasol's play is more important to the Lakers winning a title similarly that Mo Williams' play will dictate the Cavs' success...that and the Cavs sign my paychecks

Ask Danny Ferry who he'd rather have out for the NBA Finals, Pau or Kobe. :D

Unassisted
04-14-2009, 10:46 AM
Spurs looked fabulous against the uninspired Warriors last night. They led by 38 at one point.

We'll see how they do in the finale against the Hornets.

leakbrewergator
04-14-2009, 01:29 PM
ROY- Derrick Rose, and it's not even close.
Most Improved- Danny Granger, again not close
Defensive player of the year- Dwight Howard, not close
6th man-Lamar Odom, barely meets the requirements
coach- Nate McMillian
MVP- LeBron, barely over KOBE
Exec- Mitch Kupchak, just a carryover from the Pau deal, he should get it for the next five years.

All-NBA
C- Dwight Howard
F- LeBron James
F- Tim Duncan
G- Kobe Bryant
G- Dwayne Wade

texasdave
04-14-2009, 04:22 PM
LOL. In the Western Conference we know that the Lakers are the number one seed and we also know that the Jazz are the eight seed. Seeds six and seven will go to the Mavs and the Hornets, but the order has not been determined going in to the last game of the season. And now for the fun part. Denver, Houston, Portland and San Antonio will occupy seeds two through five. But in which order? Got a minute? There would be a quiz at the end of all this, but I am not sure of which questions to ask. And I would need a bigger hard drive. Check out these possibilities:

http://www.blazersedge.com/2009/4/14/834639/april-14th-seeding-report#comments

From the Blazer's Edge website:


April 14th Seeding Report
by Dave on Apr 14, 2009 1:26 AM PDT 35 comments

OK, so here's the grand seeding news following Monday night's games. We can now pin down the exact possibilities remaining. Drum roll please...

Everybody won tonight.

That means the standings look like this:

2. Denver 54-27 (@Portland)
3. San Antonio 53-28 (New Orleans)
4. Houston 53-28 (@Dallas)
5. Portland 53-28 (Denver)
6. New Orleans 49-32 (@San Antonio)
7. Dallas 49-32 (Houston)
8. Utah 48-33 (@L*kers)
The biggest development here from Portland's standpoint is that the Nuggets have now clinched the Northwest Division. The best Portland can do is tie Denver with a victory on Wednesday. Even though that would leave the teams tied head-to-head Denver would own the tiebreaker due to a 1-game advantage in division record.

Because of this Portland can no longer get the 2nd seed in the West. They could finish in the top four mix but they would always lose out to Los Angeles and Denver. Portland is now locked into one of three seeds: 3rd, 4th, or 5th.

Here's how it shakes out. As always...disclaimer...this is to the best of my knowledge and ability. I can explain to you exactly why this works and exactly how we got here, but divining the rules and procedures is a strenuous matter even for people who should know better than I. I am 99.999% certain this is correct, but we're not going to know for sure if there are any curveballs until Wednesday.

If Portland Wins Wednesday Night

If the Blazers win Wednesday night they cannot finish lower than 4th in the West. Portland would finish with a 54-28 record. One of three things would happen with Houston and San Antonio.

1. Both Houston and San Antonio would win, which would invoke a four-way tie as Denver, San Antonio, Houston, and Portland would all finish the year at 54-28. The results of such a tie are explained in detail near the bottom of the post here. The order of finish would be

2. Houston (54-28)*
3. Denver (54-28)*
4. Portland (54-28)
5. San Antonio (54-28)
(*denotes Division Winner)

2. One or the other of them would lose. In that case the team that lost would be one game behind the Blazers, Nuggets, and the team that won. The losing team would fall out of the top four, earning the 5th seed in the West.

Houston owns the head-to-head tiebreaker against Denver by virtue of a 3-1 season series. Denver owns the head-to-head tiebreaker against San Antonio because they went 2-1 versus the Spurs. Thus...

A. If San Antonio loses but Houston wins the seeding would go:

2. Houston (54-28)*
3. Denver (54-28)*
4. Portland (54-28)
5. San Antonio (53-29)
B. If Houston loses but San Antonio wins the seeding would go:

2. Denver (54-28)*
3. San Antonio (54-28)*
4. Portland (54-28)
5. Houston (53-28)
Keep in mind in the second scenario that even though Portland owns the head-to-head against San Antonio division winners win ties with non-division-winners. Therefore San Antonio would get the higher seed.

3. Both Houston and San Antonio could lose. In this case Houston would again claim the Southwest Division as explained above. Now, however, the seeding would look like this:

2. Denver (54-28)*
3. Portland (54-28)
4. Houston (53-29)*
5. San Antonio (53-29)
This latter scenario will cause some confusion among people because of the division winner thing. There are two, separate issues which involve division winners. One is the tiebreaker rules, which say a division winner comes out ahead in ties. The other is the seeding rules, which say that the top four seeds in a conference shall consist of the three division winners plus the team with the best record among non-division-winners. Those four teams will be seeded by record, regardless of division-winner status.

In Scenario 3 above Houston would make the top four seeds because it is a division winner. But once there the Rockets would be seeded by record. Since their record is worse than Portland, Denver, and L.A. they'd end up fourth.

In Scenario 2B above San Antonio and Denver both make it into the top four with L.A. by virtue of their division wins. Portland also makes it as the non-division-winning team with the best record. However in this case Portland and San Antonio are tied in record. That tie is broken by the tiebreaker. The first tiebreaker rule is that division winners prevail over non-division-winners. Therefore San Antonio gets the nod.

Not confusing the effect of the division win in Scenarios 2B and 3 is important.

If Portland Loses Wednesday Night

This is where things get more hairy.

First of all, if the Blazers lose to the Nuggets then Denver will have sole possession of the 2nd seed. Houston and San Antonio would finish at least a game behind them no matter what. So we can take Denver out of the equation here and just deal with the Rockets, Spurs, and Blazers.

We'll run our scenarios again.

1. If Houston and San Antonio both win then Houston would take the Southwest Division and the standings would look like this:

2. Denver (55-27)*
3. Houston (54-28)*
4. San Antonio (54-28)
5. Portland (53-29)
2A. If San Antonio loses but Houston wins then Houston would win their division. San Antonio and Portland would finish with identical records and neither would be a division winner. Portland wins that battle by virtue of the 3-1 head-to-head edge versus the Spurs in the regular season. Thus:

2. Denver (55-27)*
3. Houston (54-28)*
4. Portland (53-29)
5. San Antonio (53-29)
2B. If Houston loses but San Antonio wins then San Antonio would claim the division. Portland and Houston would go head-to-head with a tie record and Houston would come out ahead by virtue of their 2-1 regular-season mark against the Blazers. Thus:

2. Denver (55-27)*
3. San Antonio (54-28)*
4. Houston (53-29)
5. Portland (53-29)
3. If both Houston and San Antonio lose alongside the Blazers then Houston would win the division over San Antonio for reasons explained above. Portland would also win the tiebreaker with the Spurs.

2. Denver (55-27)*
3. Houston (53-29)*
4. Portland (53-29)
5. San Antonio (53-29)
The Cliffs Notes Version

If you just want to keep it simple, here's the shorthand.

IF PORTLAND WINS they get the 4th seed UNLESS both Houston and San Antonio lose, in which case it's the 3rd seed.

IF PORTLAND LOSES they get:

--The 5th seed if San Antonio wins.

--The 4th seed if San Antonio loses.

Conclusion

The best thing to root for would be a Blazer win, of course, but after that root for New Orleans to win on the road against San Antonio. If you can get that, then be greedy and root for Houston to lose also.

Potential Opponents

In each case where Portland wins the 4th or 5th seed you can already see their matchup listed, as 4 matches up against 5 in the playoffs. In every scenario but one listed above the opponent is Houston or San Antonio. However there is that one scenario where both Houston and San Antonio lose their final games while Portland wins against Denver, leaving the Blazers in the 3rd seed. Who could be the opponent in the 6-slot in that scenario?

Looking at the current standings you see New Orleans and Dallas tied in the 6-7 spots with 49-32 records. However if you look at the opponents of those two teams in their final games...gasp! They are none other than our old friends Houston and San Antonio. In order to make our Blazers-in-3rd-seed scenario work both Houston and San Antonio must lose. That would leave the Hornets and Mavericks with identical 50-32 records. Neither would be division winners. The Hornets hold a 3-1 season series edge over the Mavericks. So in that scenario Portland's opponent would be the New Orleans Hornets.

The Spurs, Rockets, and Hornets are the only possible opponents left for the Blazers.

Mere mortals can feel free to stop reading at this point, as you now know everything you need to know about Wednesday's games and the potential outcomes. Those who are truly gluttons for punishment can click past the jump. I'm going to add an appendix of common mistakes I've seen when determining seeding, leading to all of the confusion and wrong information you're seeing.

--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)



Common Mistakes We're Seeing

1. Forgetting that Tiebreakers only Break Ties

With all of the talk about the tiebreakers it's easy to forget they're not all-powerful. If I finish with 54 wins and you finish with 53 I beat you even if you have the season series between us 3-1 and every other tiebreaker in the book.

2. Mixing up the Use of Division Winner Status in Seeding and in Tiebreakers

We covered this one above. There are two separate ways winning the division becomes important.

First, winning the division breaks all ties in your favor unless that tie is with another division winner.

Second, division winners are guaranteed to be somewhere in the top four seeds in their conference. The top seeds are the three division winners plus the non-division-winner with the best record. But those four seeds are seeded by record, regardless of who won the division.

The exception to this is if the records say a division winner and a non-division winner are tied for one of those top four seeds. Then a tiebreaker is invoked and the division winner prevails in that tiebreaker. But that's ONLY if the teams are tied!

Using the example above, the 54-win team is going to be seeded higher than the 53-win team even if the 53-win team was a division winner UNLESS the 54-win team didn't make it into the top four seeds in the first place because another non-division winner won more. (That "UNLESS" can't happen this year, so don't worry about it.)

3. Trying to Invoke Criteria Farther Down the Tiebreaker List After the Tie Has Already Been Broken

Once a tie has been broken by one of the tiebreaker rules, the process is done. The team that won the tiebreaker is no longer considered tied. Criteria #1 on both the two-team and multi-team tiebreaker lists is Division Winner. Therefore all division winners are automatically removed from ties with non-division winners regardless of head-to-head record or anything else.

4. Not Knowing When to Invoke Multi-Team versus Two-Team Tiebreaker Rules

I bolded this one because it's the most obscure. Even I had to think for a couple hours before I understood it.

Here's the first part of the multi-team list:

1. Division Winners
2. Best Head-to-Head Among All Teams Tied
3. Highest Winning Percentage in Division (if teams are in the same division)
4. Highest Winning Percentage in Conference
Etc.
Here's top of the two-team list:

1. Division Winners
2. Best Head-to-Head
3. Highest Winning Percentage in Division (if teams are in the same division)
4. Highest Winning Percentage in Conference
If three or more teams are tied, you instinctively go to the multi-team list. But before you can do that, the rules say Division Winners must be determined.

This could be done using the multi-team list if all three or more teams tied are in the same division. If Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio all tied at the top of their division then you'd use the multi-team tiebreaking list to determine a division winner between the three.

However if, as could happen this year, you have a multi-team tie where a division crown is undecided but not all of the teams involved belong in that undecided division, you have to break down the tie into its component parts and resolve the division winner question first, before anything else. Therefore if San Antonio, Houston, and Portland tie and the Southwest Division lead is involved, you put Portland aside for a moment and resolve the tie between Houston and San Antonio for the division. And THAT resolution happens under two-team rules, not multi-team. Only once the division crown is established do you plug Portland back in and switch back to the multi-team rules.

In the event of a four-way tie between Denver, San Antonio, Houston, and Portland with division crowns at stake you'd do the same thing. Set the four-way aside and run the numbers for the two sets of division rivals to determine a division winner in each race. Once you've determined that, put them back together and run the four-way.

But wait, there's more. A team is removed from the multi-team tie situation when a tiebreaker is resolved. And the rules state that at the moment enough teams are removed to whittle the remaining tied teams down to two, you switch to the two-team tie rules.

For example, in the case of that three-way tie between Portland, Houston, and San Antonio you'd resolve the division winner question first, as we said. Let's say it was Houston. So now you take the three teams to the multi-team chart. Tiebreaker #1 is division winner. Houston is a division winner. Portland and San Antonio are not. Therefore Houston's part of the tie is resolved. They finish ahead of both others. They are now considered out of the tie and their part in this whole process is done. Now you are down to just two teams in question. Therefore it's not a multi-team tie anymore. So you abandon all other multi-team criteria and switch to the two-team rules. Neither of the remaining two teams are division winners. Portland owns the second tiebreaker under the two-team rules...head-to-head record. Therefore Portland wins the tie over San Antonio and you have your final order: Houston, Portland, San Antonio.

This is also how we resolved the ultra-tricky four-way tie scenario. It breaks down to two division races: Portland vs. Denver, Houston vs. San Antonio. Once the divisions are determined you mush them all back together and run the multi-team rules. Two of them are division winners, so they are considered out of the tie with the other two. You run the two, two-team ties using the two-team rules.

The important thing to remember here is that the league doesn't want a team finishing above another team on a technicality. When a tie is down to just two teams they want direct head-to-head record to determine it, if applicable, not head-to-head involving third parties who aren't really a part of the tie anymore.

5. Making Mistakes Counting Up Stats and Records

I've done this too. It's easy to do. It also messes things up something fierce.

--Dave

:beerme:

Unassisted
04-14-2009, 05:16 PM
Thanks for sharing, texasdave. The sports people around here just roll their eyes and say the scenarios are too complicated to explain, so I appreciate seeing them spelled out. :)

Boston Red
04-14-2009, 05:58 PM
we also know that the Jazz are the eight seed.

This isn't true. If the Jazz win in LA tonight and the Hornets lose to the Spurs tomorrow, the Jazz will be the 7 seed. The Jazz would also get the nod over Dallas if they win and Dallas loses at home against Houston tomorrow.

Razor Shines
04-14-2009, 06:30 PM
Did anyone see JR Smith go off last night? 11 of 18 3pters. Around the Horn happened to be on at the gym while I was working out and Mariotti was whining because he took 7 of the threes in the last 6 minutes of the game. I thought it was entertaining.

Woody Paige had the line of the show though, he called the Kings the Sacrificial Kings. I LOL'd at that.

BuckeyeRed27
04-15-2009, 02:51 PM
This isn't true. If the Jazz win in LA tonight and the Hornets lose to the Spurs tomorrow, the Jazz will be the 7 seed. The Jazz would also get the nod over Dallas if they win and Dallas loses at home against Houston tomorrow.

Well don't have to worry about that any more.

The Jazz come into the playoffs losing 7 of 8 and two of those to non playoff teams at home. For a while it looked like they were serious contenders in the West, but I think they'll be lucky to win a game against LA at this point.