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View Full Version : Who is Redszone's #20 Prospect?



Mario-Rijo
11-27-2008, 02:52 AM
Redszone's Top Prospects

Prospect #1 - Yonder Alonso
Prospect #2 - Todd Frazier
Prospect #3 - Neftali Soto
Prospect #4 - Drew Stubbs
Prospect #5 - Chris Valaika
Prospect #6 - Kyle Lotzkar
Prospect #7 - Daryl Thompson
Prospect #8 - Juan Francisco
Prospect #9 - Juan Duran
Prospect #10 - Chris Dickerson
Prospect #11 - Devin Mesoraco
Prospect #12 - Danny Dorn
Prospect #13 - Yorman Rodriguez
Prospect #14 - Zach Stewart
Prospect #15 - Josh Roenicke
Prospect #16 - Ramon Ramirez
Prospect #17 - Zach Cozart
Prospect #18 - Matt Maloney
Prospect #19 - Carlos Fisher

Mario-Rijo
11-27-2008, 03:02 AM
I seen the previous poll was closed a few hours ago and OBM wasn't around so I thought perhaps he may have went away for the Holiday or something so I went ahead and took it upon myself to add it. I didn't add anyone to the previous list I just subtracted Fisher and left the list at 20 even.

Sorry OBM, I couldn't wait. ;)

OnBaseMachine
11-27-2008, 03:04 AM
I'm still here. I was planning on starting the next one when I got home tonight or in the morning.

Mario-Rijo
11-27-2008, 03:11 AM
I'm going Adam Rosales, he is a guy who can hit for avg & power w/ discipline and play better than average defense in more than 1 spot. No he's not super talented in any one area but he has no significant flaws and he already has touched the bigs. I think this guy could eventually become a starting major league 2B and a fine one at that.

I figure it like this if you like Justin Turner, Ryan Hanigan, Heisey and the like then really Rosales should be your pick here as neither have anything on him as far as I'm concerned. Rosales even still has a little upside which should make him a far better pro than Hanigan (even with the premium position) and nothing about Turner's game is better at all.

Mario-Rijo
11-27-2008, 03:12 AM
I'm still here. I was planning on starting the next one when I got home tonight or in the morning.

My bad, just figured I'd give you hand just in case you were gonna be away for a day or so.

OnBaseMachine
11-27-2008, 03:18 AM
No problem.

I went with Dallas Buck. If Buck can regain his low 90's fastball, he's got a chance to develop into a #2 starter IMO. He's got strong groundball tendencies and a solid slider and changeup to go along with his fastball. I expect him to start in Double-A Carolina with a chance to reach Louisville by the end of the season.

redsfandan
11-27-2008, 12:37 PM
hope people don't mind but i had a couple questions:
it may be january before the rest of the prospects are ranked so of the top 20 what do people think of the fact that only 2 of the top 13 prospects are pitchers?

also, again of the top 20, how many would you see have a ceiling of an above average or elite major league player and how many do you think have a ceiling of an average or part-time player?

edit: woops, i probably should've waited til the 20th prospect was picked. well anyway, thanks in advance for any opinions or relevant pms.

redhawk61
11-27-2008, 12:56 PM
Dallas buck for me

kpresidente
11-27-2008, 01:03 PM
it may be january before the rest of the prospects are ranked so of the top 20 what do people think of the fact that only 2 of the top 13 prospects are pitchers?

I think it looks worse than it is. We have young pitching in the majors, plus Homer Bailey. Still, you're right that we could use some low-level arms.

mace
11-27-2008, 02:06 PM
My man again: Hanigan

AmarilloRed
11-27-2008, 02:19 PM
Alex Buchholz can flat out hit. Not only that, he had 16 walks in 150 plate appearances which makes me think he has good plate discipline. I expect a rapid rise through the minors next year for him.

Mario-Rijo
11-27-2008, 02:40 PM
Alex Buchholz can flat out hit. Not only that, he had 16 walks in 150 plate appearances which makes me think he has good plate discipline. I expect a rapid rise through the minors next year for him.

I agree I love Bucholz's game but feel like I need to see more & at higher levels before I put him above the likes of Rosales.

HokieRed
11-27-2008, 06:02 PM
Hildenbrandt again. Interesting to me that this board really doesn't put much emphasis on upside at all. Guys are considered to be prospects who frankly, even at their best, will be among the dozens of basically fungible units out there while guys like Hildenbrandt--farther away from the bigs but with significant upside at the most important position on the field--get overlooked. Must be because the Reds have been so bad for so long--and their farm system so barren--that anybody who looks like he'll be a major leaguer is considered an important prospect.

bowlindj
11-27-2008, 06:53 PM
I've gone with Dallas Buck the last 3 rounds so I'll stick with him. If he can put up the numbers he did through his senior year in college with torn ligaments and no velocity, that just tells me he know how to pitch and not just throw...so if he can regain any velocity that he had prior to the injury he could really surprise some people.

OnBaseMachine
11-27-2008, 07:12 PM
Hildenbrandt again. Interesting to me that this board really doesn't put much emphasis on upside at all. Guys are considered to be prospects who frankly, even at their best, will be among the dozens of basically fungible units out there while guys like Hildenbrandt--farther away from the bigs but with significant upside at the most important position on the field--get overlooked. Must be because the Reds have been so bad for so long--and their farm system so barren--that anybody who looks like he'll be a major leaguer is considered an important prospect.

Just curious, who do you think Hildenbrandt should rank ahead of? He's a good prospect but the only guys I could see putting him ahead of are Cozart and maybe Mesoraco.

HokieRed
11-28-2008, 12:24 AM
I wasn't thinking so much of guys already among the top 19 as I was of people getting votes in this round: Turner, Rosales, Heisey, Hanigan etc. But since you ask, OBM, I've had Hildenbrandt ahead of the last several players and if he'd ever get taken, I'd probably have Sulbaran also ahead of several of the last picks. Guys who project as fourth outfielders and utility infielders--even if sure things to play in the majors--rate below--specifically as prospects--potential starting pitchers like Hildenbrandt, at least IMHO.

mace
11-28-2008, 01:42 AM
I'm very high on Hildebrandt, too. I have him 18th on my top 40, ahead of Roenicke, Fisher, Cozart, Turner and even Dorn. But I haven't voted for him yet here because I'm still working on my No. 9 guy (Hanigan), with Heisey, Horst and Buchholz still lined up in front of him. In my mind, the only thing holding Hildebrandt back is the absence of a significant body of work. I like what I've seen and heard -- just haven't seen and heard enough. I don't doubt that, this time next year, he could be held in the same esteem by which Lotzkar is now regarded.

Mario-Rijo
11-28-2008, 06:43 AM
I wasn't thinking so much of guys already among the top 19 as I was of people getting votes in this round: Turner, Rosales, Heisey, Hanigan etc. But since you ask, OBM, I've had Hildenbrandt ahead of the last several players and if he'd ever get taken, I'd probably have Sulbaran also ahead of several of the last picks. Guys who project as fourth outfielders and utility infielders--even if sure things to play in the majors--rate below--specifically as prospects--potential starting pitchers like Hildenbrandt, at least IMHO.

I can see your arguments against Turner, Heisey and even Hanigan somewhat but not Rosales. That said if you want people to look at him more seriously perhaps you should say more than he has a high ceiling. State your case with something to make all take him more serious. I mean we don't all have a scouting report on everyone. Give us a reason to change our mind.

mth123
11-28-2008, 06:58 AM
Hildenbrandt again. Interesting to me that this board really doesn't put much emphasis on upside at all. Guys are considered to be prospects who frankly, even at their best, will be among the dozens of basically fungible units out there while guys like Hildenbrandt--farther away from the bigs but with significant upside at the most important position on the field--get overlooked. Must be because the Reds have been so bad for so long--and their farm system so barren--that anybody who looks like he'll be a major leaguer is considered an important prospect.

You are probably right and I know I'm guilty as charged. I just can't rate a pitcher who fell so far in the draft and hasn't really established anything in the full season minors yet. There is a ton that can go wrong between the rookie leagues and the majors, so unless the kid has a major buzz about him that that would make him a guy who could be dealt for a nice return, he doesn't seem to have as much value to me, but you are probably right if we're just talking ceiling. Of course, giving ceiling so much weight would usually fill the top of the list with recent draft picks who haven't really had the time to expose their warts yet and I don't really like that either. Its the biggest knock that I have on BA and their lists, but that's just me. I'm equal opportunity though and not just anti-young pitcher, I didn't rate Juan Duran or Yorman Rodriguez either. I have a feeling that next year at this time Hildenbrandt, Duran, Rodriguez, Sulbarren and Buchholz may all be in my top 10. I hope so.

RedlegJake
11-28-2008, 08:35 AM
I don't vote for guys like Dickerson, Janish, Rosales and Hanigan because I simply don't see them as prospects. A combination of age, experience in the minors and cups of ML coffee combine to put them in a different category, at least for me. They aren't really major leaguers full fledged just yet but they are so close and so well known there is little left prospect wise. They are at a point I call Do it or Done. And that's the line between them and say Homer. He's not at that point yet where you say well either he does it now or he never will. Then there are the two other types of prospects - the Billings and GCL kids who have such brief glimpses and in very different kinds of leagues (Billings very short and an extreme hitters environment; GCL extreme pitching environment and very instructional) that you can't really get too high or too low yet; and the international kids who are still cutting teeth in Caribbean and Latin leagues and are so very far away - its hard to ignore Rodriguez or Duran or Guilon but its really, really premature to call them prospects. Adding kids from either of these groups is kind of cheating, a useful ploy to prop up a system perhaps but not realistic.

camisadelgolf
11-28-2008, 10:38 AM
When he was drafted, I believe Hildenbrandt was viewed as a reliever down the line because he's a little too wild with his secondary pitches.

OnBaseMachine
11-28-2008, 11:36 AM
Only 63 votes with a little over 15 hours left of voting. That's why I was planning on waiting until yesterday morning to start the next poll and leave it open for three days because I figured traffic on here would slow down on Thanksgiving and Black Friday.

HokieRed
11-28-2008, 12:05 PM
One thing that caused Hildenbrandt to slip in the draft, IIRC, is that he made it clear he wanted third round money, which, again IIRC, the Reds gave him. And then to rely on a non-sabermetrics act of perception, I really like his mechanics, based on what I've seen in the admittedly very brief scouting video. I don't see any obvious stress points for injury, in a way that, unfortunately, jump out at one when looking at Lotzkar, for instance, whom I am really high on but worry about a lot.

dougdirt
11-28-2008, 12:33 PM
When he was drafted, I believe Hildenbrandt was viewed as a reliever down the line because he's a little too wild with his secondary pitches.

No, he came out and only had his fastball and curveball. It was noted he would be a good reliever IF he couldn't develop a third pitch. He is still working on it, but his fastball is fine and his curveball is a very good. He is now throwing a change up as well as a sinker to go along with his fastball and curve.

OnBaseMachine
11-28-2008, 02:43 PM
Project Prospect on Neftali Soto:

Sully Select: Neftali Soto must have known that the Midwest league is usually tough on young hitters. Following Soto’s stint in rookie-ball in 2008 – where he abused Pioneer league pitching to the tune of a .388/.423/.746 line, Soto managed not only to continue to make solid contact in the Midwest league, but hit for power as well (.500 slugging). Discipline remains an issue with Soto as it does with many youngsters, but his bat is lethal and he should continuing proving that in the upper levels.

http://www.projectprospect.com/article/2008/11/27/top-5-risers-under-25-by-org-nl-central

BigRed07
11-28-2008, 03:04 PM
and nothing about Turner's game is better at all.

I have to disagree about Turner's game. I can think of a few things that are better than Rosales at this point. I think Turner is better defensively. He turns the best double play in the Reds farm system. He can play LF,RF,3B,SS,2B,1B. The Reds have had him play all these positions. He could even C if they needed him to. I think one of the reasons Valaika is still at SS is because they have Turner at 2B and is a far better defensive player on the right side of the diamond. Turner's offensive number are pretty good too.

Fact: Turner has put up better numbers in the minors than Rosales. Turner has hit .300+ in 2 out of 3 years. Rosales has hit 300+ in 1 out of 4.
Turner .310/.377/.445/.822
Rosales .285/.360/.484/.844

I wouldn't say "nothing about Turner's game is better at all". The numbers don't lie. I like Adam Rosales. I've seen him play and I love his approach and the way he play's the game. Turner and Rosales are both "Baseball Players".They don't have all the tools but they play the game right.

camisadelgolf
11-28-2008, 04:26 PM
No, he came out and only had his fastball and curveball. It was noted he would be a good reliever IF he couldn't develop a third pitch. He is still working on it, but his fastball is fine and his curveball is a very good. He is now throwing a change up as well as a sinker to go along with his fastball and curve.

Sounds good. I'm not sure who I'm thinking of then.

Mario-Rijo
11-28-2008, 09:19 PM
I have to disagree about Turner's game. I can think of a few things that are better than Rosales at this point. I think Turner is better defensively. He turns the best double play in the Reds farm system. He can play LF,RF,3B,SS,2B,1B. The Reds have had him play all these positions. He could even C if they needed him to. I think one of the reasons Valaika is still at SS is because they have Turner at 2B and is a far better defensive player on the right side of the diamond. Turner's offensive number are pretty good too.

That's fine that you think Turner's defense is better, but that doesn't stand as proof that he is. Rosales has also played the positions you listed so I don't understand your point there.


Fact: Turner has put up better numbers in the minors than Rosales. Turner has hit .300+ in 2 out of 3 years. Rosales has hit 300+ in 1 out of 4.
Turner .310/.377/.445/.822
Rosales .285/.360/.484/.844

I wouldn't say "nothing about Turner's game is better at all". The numbers don't lie. I like Adam Rosales. I've seen him play and I love his approach and the way he play's the game. Turner and Rosales are both "Baseball Players".They don't have all the tools but they play the game right.

I'll give you BA but Rosales has more pop and as much if not better plate discipline. That makes him the better offensive player at least potentially. Rosales can improve/maintain his BA and is more likely too because he has more power, it's not a given to be sure but Turner's lack of power at the major league level makes him a marginal starter at best. Not only that but Rosales has already conquered AAA which Turner hasn't even stepped foot into yet. So at worst it's a push (if Turner is definitively better defensively in all those spots) but it's quite a bit more likely Rosales is the better eventual player.

SMcGavin
11-28-2008, 09:51 PM
Not only that but Rosales has already conquered AAA which Turner hasn't even stepped foot into yet. So at worst it's a push (if Turner is definitively better defensively in all those spots) but it's quite a bit more likely Rosales is the better eventual player.

Conquered AAA with a .287/.339/.463 line as a 25 year old?

dougdirt
11-28-2008, 10:06 PM
Conquered AAA with a .287/.339/.463 line as a 25 year old?

He hit .337 and slugged .564 over the last three months of the AAA season. He started off really slow, but really turned around his season.

11larkin11
11-28-2008, 10:10 PM
I like Hildenbrandt alot but I like Buck better. He is a bit more advanced, and has better stuff and projects just as high if not higher than Hildenbrandt. The only thing keeping him back is his injuries.

dougdirt
11-28-2008, 10:13 PM
I like Hildenbrandt alot but I like Buck better. He is a bit more advanced, and has better stuff and projects just as high if not higher than Hildenbrandt. The only thing keeping him back is his injuries.

Buck doesn't have better stuff. He did at one point, that was 2-3 years ago though. He had his surgery and could return to that point where his stuff was as good as it used to be, but right now his stuff isn't on par with Hildenbrandts.

OnBaseMachine
11-28-2008, 11:22 PM
I figure I'll just wait until tomorrow morning to start the next poll. Starting these things at 2:30 in the morning costs us votes.

Mario-Rijo
11-29-2008, 01:05 AM
I figure I'll just wait until tomorrow morning to start the next poll. Starting these things at 2:30 in the morning costs us votes.

My apologies.

OnBaseMachine
11-29-2008, 02:22 AM
My apologies.

It ain't no problem... I did it a few times too. I just figure it'll be better if we wait until in the morning so that more people will be able to vote.

OnBaseMachine
11-29-2008, 03:04 AM
Hanigan won by two votes over Buchholz with Heisey only four votes behind. Do you guys wanna do a runoff vote or just move on? I'd say we're getting to the point where there won't be anymore blowout wins.

JayBruceFan
11-29-2008, 03:08 AM
Run-Off for like a day or two

RED VAN HOT
11-29-2008, 03:32 AM
run-off for a day