All's quiet on the Dunn

[Strider]

Jon Heyman says...

Things have appeared oddly quiet for the biggest slugger on the free-agent market. That would be Adam Dunn, who may find his value isn't quite what he had hoped...

http://www.fannation.com/si_blogs/hot_stove/posts/27101

I wonder what his price will be in January...7-8M/Yr?

Anyone want to take your best guess at when and at what price Dunn will sign.
Tiebreaker...name the team.

December 20th, Nationals $12M average/year for 5 years

[Bip Roberts]

Im so surprised teams dont want a number 2 hitter with terrible bat skills

[Ghosts of 1990]

At the same time, everything is slow. No one is signing anywhere. They're saying nothing is going to pick up till the winter meetings. Teams are waiting to feel eachother out so they don't have to spend as much. I'm hearing that nothing is expected to go down with free agents until the winter meetings. The economic stuff has everyone out of whack. Its not just Dunn even though it appears that way. He's going to get a big contract somewhere IMO.

[Bip Roberts]

Im going to say he signs for less than he made this year.

[Stephenk29]

Off the wall prediction: 13 million dollars a year. Team: KC Royals

[Chris Sabowned]

I predict that whatever high payroll team doesn't get their hands on Mark Texiera will turn to Dunn in desperation. Some here may hate him for is poor fielding and high strikeouts, but 40 homers is 40 homers, and his OPB and OPS were both good for 9th in the league.

Yankees/Angels 13 mil a year

[redsfanmia]

Dunn is an elite player and will sign for 20+ million a year 5+ years.

[Dunnateher]

I think a few teams will be in the mix after Tex, Manny, and a few big starters are signed. Giants 4yr 56 mil.

[Ghosts of 1990]

I think it will be 15 million 4 years in the AL

[Jack Burton]

$80 per week and free beer. Scooter's Tavern.

[indyredleg]

Gotta be a AL team he is a liability to any NL team. The man was made to be a DH 4yrs 15 mill is probably a good guess. Nice consolation prize to those who lose out on getting the power of Manny. Could see him in Yankees pinstripes or in the AL east somewhere.

[Emin3mShady07]

Dunn is an elite player and will sign for 20+ million a year 5+ years.

No chance Dunn gets that. He is a very good player, but he is no Mark Texiera or Albert Pujols.

[Ghosts of 1990]

I still appreciate what Dunn was for us, and miss him dearly being a Red. Bruce has the chance to unseat Adam but Dunn might always be my favorite Redleg.

[TC81190]

Yankees for 10M/yr, 3 years.

[Strider]

I think those that suggest AL are probably right...so I'll tweak mine to say

Angels / $12.5M/year for 4 years.

[757690]

I think Dunn will get the length of the contract that he wants - 5 years, since he is under 30 and has been very consistent throughout his career. The big question is the $$ amount. I will agree with Strider and guess that he will get around what he made last year, $13M for 5 years from the Angels. They need a DH, and have the money to spend.
However, if the market and economy was better, I would guess he would get at least $15M. But it looks like Manny won't get nearly what he wants ( the Dodgers have said that they will not up their offer of $22M f or two years), nor will Tex, which is a sign that the outside of CC, all free agents signings will be for less than for what they were hoping.

[REDblooded]

Who is Dunn?

[Ghosts of 1990]

Dunn in an Angels uniform. Ugh. Cant picture it and dont want to.

[redsfandan]

Dunn in an Angels uniform. Ugh. Cant picture it and dont want to.

bcuz?

i also think he'd receive more in a normal year. i wouldn't be surprised by a shorter contract (1-3 years) with the idea/hope that it would be a better market after a couple years. i'll say 3 years/$43 million w/incentives that could add another $5-8 million.
no idea about the team. i've suggested the angels before but it could be anyone that wants to win now or wants to look like they're at least trying for p.r. and the teams that lose out on manny/teix could be expected to have some interest. angels, boston, la, cubs, dc, san fran, .... i'll stay with the angels cuz i like the fit but obviously fit doesn't always matter. we'll find out soon enough. maybe around 12/19.

[Ghosts of 1990]

bcuz?

i also think he'd receive more in a normal year. i wouldn't be surprised by a shorter contract (1-3 years) with the idea/hope that it would be a better market after a couple years. i'll say 3 years/$43 million w/incentives that could add another $5-8 million.
no idea about the team. i've suggested the angels before but it could be anyone that wants to win now or wants to look like they're at least trying for p.r. and the teams that lose out on manny/teix could be expected to have some interest. angels, boston, la, cubs, dc, san fran, .... i'll stay with the angels cuz i like the fit but obviously fit doesn't always matter. we'll find out soon enough. maybe around 12/19.

I didnt mean like it wont happen. I just meant he would look as bad in an Angels uniform to me as he could in any uniform. I just don't wanna imagine him playing for them. I'd rather have him be a Yankee or BoSox, or heck even a Royal. Anything but an Angel. I hate that team.

[Hondo]

I think he will go to Tampa Bay...

[redsfanmia]

Once Dunn gets a full season away from the Reds and is used properly he will become an MVP candidate the Reds were holding him down.

[Hondo]

Once Dunn gets a full season away from the Reds and is used properly he will become an MVP candidate the Reds were holding him down.

I agree with you... If he had lets say a Manny Ramirez or Matt Holliday behind him so he actually got something to hit... I bet he would be a .290-.300 Hitter, but wait he had Edwin Encarnancion...

This team has been managaed like a JOKE.

[redsfandan]

I think he will go to Tampa Bay...

tampa had the 2nd lowest payroll in '08 and they already have players that will see increases so i don't see tampa as a fit. on the other hand i'd be surprised if they weren't interested in jr.


I agree with you... If he had lets say a Manny Ramirez or Matt Holliday behind him so he actually got something to hit... I bet he would be a .290-.300 Hitter, but wait he had Edwin Encarnancion...

This team has been managaed like a JOKE.

sounds just a little too optimistic.

[redsfandan]

Rosenthal's Latest: Dunn, Wood, Sheets By Nat Boyle [November 30 at 9:53am CST]
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/
Ken Rosenthal suggests that in this economy some teams may not offer arbitration to Type A free agents to avoid risking a payroll hit. Further, some players may opt to accept the certainty of arbitration over "a volatile free agent period."

The Dbacks were always expected to offer arbitration to Adam Dunn and he was expected to decline thus netting Arizona two draft picks to compensate for the three players they dealt in August. In arbitration, Dunn would command $15-16MM. Says Rosenthal,

"...if the D-backs made the offer, it's doubtful that Dunn and his agents would determine by midnight Saturday that a multiyear contract was beyond their reach. What's more, the D-backs always could trade Dunn if he accepted their offer. In that sense, he would be an asset on a one-year deal; the Nationals, among other teams, would jump."

Dec. 1 -- Last day for teams to offer salary arbitration to their former players who became free agents.

Dec. 7 -- Last day for free agents offered salary arbitration to accept the offers.

[Hondo]

tampa had the 2nd lowest payroll in '08 and they already have players that will see increases so i don't see tampa as a fit. on the other hand i'd be surprised if they weren't interested in jr.



sounds just a little too optimistic.

Well sir, the Rays are not brining back Cliff Floyd and they are looking at Raul Ibanez... They need a left fielder and a left handed Hitter...

Likely? No... Kicking tires? uh huh....

[redsfandan]

floyd was cheap, jr will be cheap. dunn WON'T be cheap. is it possible? sure. i just wouln't expect it cuz of how much more dunn will cost. btw, carl crawford plays left.

[Hondo]

Hey, I was making a Cinderella Pick... Toronto is my other Sleeper...

[redsfandan]

ok then dc will be my cinderella pick. just cuz dunn, kearns, and old leatherpants would love the reunion.:p:

[TC81190]

There is absolutely no way Dunn will sign with the Blue Jays.

[Steviejoe]

I would say tampa bay in the al,with a 3 year deal,for $13 million per season.Not much in the nl,best guess he will return to arizona,or a smaller deal in washington if he has to wait closer to spring traning=2 year,11.9 million.best bet go al and dh.

[RED VAN HOT]

At the same time, everything is slow. No one is signing anywhere. They're saying nothing is going to pick up till the winter meetings. Teams are waiting to feel eachother out so they don't have to spend as much. I'm hearing that nothing is expected to go down with free agents until the winter meetings. The economic stuff has everyone out of whack. Its not just Dunn even though it appears that way. He's going to get a big contract somewhere IMO.

Good point. I suspect that there is a lot to the trade rumors we hear. Teams are defining the trade space for later use. From an overpaying perspective, taking on a high salary for prospects is as risky as signing a FA. Teams are likely to wait until the top tier free agents take the big payroll teams off the market. Then the market can be established for the teams operating at thinner margins. Poorer teams may attempt to fill a need first with Rule 5.

[redsfandan]

Rosenthal's Latest: Dunn, Wood, Sheets By Nat Boyle [November 30 at 9:53am CST]
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/
Ken Rosenthal suggests that in this economy some teams may not offer arbitration to Type A free agents to avoid risking a payroll hit. Further, some players may opt to accept the certainty of arbitration over "a volatile free agent period."

The Dbacks were always expected to offer arbitration to Adam Dunn and he was expected to decline thus netting Arizona two draft picks to compensate for the three players they dealt in August. In arbitration, Dunn would command $15-16MM. Says Rosenthal,

"...if the D-backs made the offer, it's doubtful that Dunn and his agents would determine by midnight Saturday that a multiyear contract was beyond their reach. What's more, the D-backs always could trade Dunn if he accepted their offer. In that sense, he would be an asset on a one-year deal; the Nationals, among other teams, would jump."

Dec. 1 -- Last day for teams to offer salary arbitration to their former players who became free agents.

Dec. 7 -- Last day for free agents offered salary arbitration to accept the offers.

i just wanted to repost that. with the way things have been so slow i'll be curious to see if there are any surprises tonight.

[Nasty_Boy]

Once the CC's, Tex's, and Manny being Manny's sign, other chips will start to fall. Teams and agents are waiting for the market to be set. A team like the LA Angels may view Dunn as a back up if they don't sign Tex or ManRam. Dunn is an offensive player that will be an asset to whatever team he signs with, but teams are going land the big guys first.

My prediction: Atlanta or Cleveland 4 yrs 64 million

[757690]

Dunn NOT offered arbitration.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/12/dbacks-offer-ar.html

This means that Dunn will get a better contract now that teams don't have to worry about giving up draft picks to sign him.

They did offer arbitration to Orlando Hudson, Juan Cruz, and Brandon Lyon, which says something about Dunn's value to other teams, or lack thereof. My read, and it is just a guess, is that the D-Backs are confident that Hudson will have solid offers from other teams so they don't have to worry about him accepting, but they don't feel as confident about Dunn.

Also, the D-Back really need a power hitter for the middle of their lineup, and they had Dunn for two months, and clearly do not see him as a solution to their need, not even at market value for just one year. Very telling indeed.

[redsfandan]

i don't know that it helps his chances of a better contract although it probably does mean a team may be a little more willing to look at him as an option since they wouldn't lose a draft pick now. but i don't think this has anything to do with dunns value to teams. it's just about $.

obviously arizona didn't feel like they needed dunn as much as some on here think. they have eric byrnes to play left. is he more valuable than dunn? nope. but they probably feel that byrnes is their best option to hit leadoff. Also they expect justin upton to continue to improve to provide more power. From the moves they've made so far (like saying no to bringing randy johnson back for even $5 million) i think it's clear that this offseason is about cutting payroll for them. The others could've been easier to risk arbitration with cuz they fill a positional need and wouldn't have been nearly as expensive as dunn.

In my post above ken rosenthal thinks that if dunn went through arbitration that he would've made $15-16 million. it's possible that dunn could've decided to accept arbitration with the idea that it would only be one year in arizona with a nice raise and he could've further cemented his status as a top offensive player. then he could've hit the FA market next year with the chances of a much better multi year contract increased especially if the FA market/economy improved. but in the end i think the dbacks just couldn't afford to risk even a one year deal that big when their #1 priority seems to be to cut payroll.

[Nasty_Boy]

This definitely increases Dunn's value, especially to teams that plan on spending some big bucks but don't have a protected draft pick. Dunn was likely to decline arbitration anyway, but the Dbacks are in serious financial trouble and couldn't afford to gamble. I'm sure Adam was pleased that arbitration wasn't offered.

[Bip Roberts]

Dunn is hitting free agency at a terrible time. 12 million maybe imo.

[Jack Burton]

After helping the DBacks out of the playoff race I'd be surprised if he gets anywhere near his asking price. Liability in the field, NL teams would be foolish to give him a contract. Looks like he'll be headed to the AL.

[freestyle55]

After helping the DBacks out of the playoff race I'd be surprised if he gets anywhere near his asking price. Liability in the field, NL teams would be foolish to give him a contract. Looks like he'll be headed to the AL.

Helping the DBacks out of the playoff? I'm sure his over .400 OBP, .889 OPS and virtually 1:1 BB/K ratio really cost them the playoffs...perhaps it was the rest of his team falling off and the Dodgers playing over their heads???

[757690]

Helping the DBacks out of the playoff? I'm sure his over .400 OBP, .889 OPS and virtually 1:1 BB/K ratio really cost them the playoffs...perhaps it was the rest of his team falling off and the Dodgers playing over their heads???

I think his point is that his numbers were great as usual, but didn't seem to help the D-Backs win any more games. The D-Backs played worse with Dunn in the lineup than without him, even though he hit as well has he ever has. Still I don't think that it was Dunn's fault, Hudson was injured during that time too, and their bullpen fell apart at the end.

[freestyle55]

I think his point is that his numbers were great as usual, but didn't seem to help the D-Backs win any more games. The D-Backs played worse with Dunn in the lineup than without him, even though he hit as well has he ever has. Still I don't think that it was Dunn's fault, Hudson was injured during that time too, and their bullpen fell apart at the end.

Then it was poorly written, because if anything he kept them from finishing worse.

That's just as bad as claiming it's Dunn's fault the Reds didn't win while he was here...

[redsfandan]

This definitely increases Dunn's value, especially to teams that plan on spending some big bucks but don't have a protected draft pick. Dunn was likely to decline arbitration anyway, but the Dbacks are in serious financial trouble and couldn't afford to gamble. I'm sure Adam was pleased that arbitration wasn't offered.

or maybe dunn would have liked to have arbitration with the dbacks as a fall back option. i don't think he'll make less than the $13 million he made last year but he may not make the $16 million he could've received from an arbitrator either.

[Jack Burton]

Then it was poorly written, because if anything he kept them from finishing worse.

That's just as bad as claiming it's Dunn's fault the Reds didn't win while he was here...

So I'm gathering you're upset we parted w/ him and you would want him back.

[Emin3mShady07]

So I'm gathering you're upset we parted w/ him and you would want him back.

I would want Dunn back, especially now with his type A status being nullified by not receiving an offer for arb. I know he is left handed, but I think handedness is a bit overrated and production is production. Dunn is consistent and consistently good and if the only other option is to acquire someone like Jermaine Dye, I would think Dunn would be a better option than giving up a top prospect. The only issue I see with bringing Dunn back would be blocking a spot for Alonso when he is ready for the bigs, you know the whole moving votto to left and all.

[Nasty_Boy]

If you people really thinks that this hurts Dunn's value, you're not looking around and you don't understand the baseball free agent market. Dunn is plain and simple a top level offensive player (maybe not in the Pujols, Arod sense but still top level)... he is going to play next season at 29, he hits 40+ HRs every season, he plays 150+ games every season, and he walks more than anyone in baseball. He is an attractive option to teams that need help scoring runs. He has his flaws, defense and baserunning but the guy will get paid. Not having to give up draft picks only improves his worth to teams, that are weary about signing type A and B free agents.

And Arizona was struggling big time before Dunn arrived. The Dodgers were gaining on them and they couldn't score runs. It just so happend that as soon as Arizon acquired Dunn, Brandon Webb and Dan Haren couldn't pitch worth a damn the last 3 weeks and Brandon Lyon blew 2 crucial games in San Fran and one against the Reds. Just my 2 cents.

[Hondo]

Yeah, you will ALL miss Dunns POWER...

Ya all get the Bed ya made so SLEEP in it...

[Strider]

Talking to a friend today who is a player agent. He says the market is really tough this year and he is advising his clients to get to a team that will showcase their talents looking down the road a year or two when the market might be better. My friend does not represent any of the highest paid players so they may not be affected as much...but it is clear to me from our conversation that some/many of the free agents may sign very late this year and at prices lower than they originally expected in free agency.

[Steviejoe]

Dunn kind of reminds me of a player by the name of Dave Kingman,He could hit the ball a county mile (that's country talk),or he would strike out.Both had potential,but the hitting for adverage was not there.We seen him at 1b,that won't work.so your looking at a bonified dh.Tampa bay is still his best bet,who knows maybe he will take less in Texas to play close to home.I did not mention he is one of my favorite players,not just for the home runs,but his nice act of caring when a you boy from Kentucky who lost his leg to cancer,was welcomed by him and the reds,he signed some autograph's and the boy threw you the first pitch.And still plays with one leg.

[redsfandan]

If you people really thinks that this hurts Dunn's value, you're not looking around and you don't understand the baseball free agent market. Dunn is plain and simple a top level offensive player (maybe not in the Pujols, Arod sense but still top level)... he is going to play next season at 29, he hits 40+ HRs every season, he plays 150+ games every season, and he walks more than anyone in baseball. He is an attractive option to teams that need help scoring runs. He has his flaws, defense and baserunning but the guy will get paid. Not having to give up draft picks only improves his worth to teams, that are weary about signing type A and B free agents.


i'm not sure that it changes his value at all. just his options. he doesn't have the dbacks as a one year fall back option now. but if it looks like teix will land with boston anaheim could be a little more willing to focus on the top offensive player who doesn't cost a pick instead.


Yeah, you will ALL miss Dunns POWER...

Ya all get the Bed ya made so SLEEP in it...

:confused:


Dunn kind of reminds me of a player by the name of Dave Kingman,He could hit the ball a county mile (that's country talk),or he would strike out.Both had potential,but the hitting for adverage was not there.We seen him at 1b,that won't work.so your looking at a bonified dh.Tampa bay is still his best bet,who knows maybe he will take less in Texas to play close to home.I did not mention he is one of my favorite players,not just for the home runs,but his nice act of caring when a you boy from Kentucky who lost his leg to cancer,was welcomed by him and the reds,he signed some autograph's and the boy threw you the first pitch.And still plays with one leg.

i've also been reminded of Kingman cuz of the power, k's, batting average, and 'defense'. but if you just look at their first eight years dunn has walked 2-3 x more which results in an obp more than 80 pts higher.

[redsfandan]

I would want Dunn back, especially now with his type A status being nullified by not receiving an offer for arb. I know he is left handed, but I think handedness is a bit overrated and production is production. Dunn is consistent and consistently good and if the only other option is to acquire someone like Jermaine Dye, I would think Dunn would be a better option than giving up a top prospect. The only issue I see with bringing Dunn back would be blocking a spot for Alonso when he is ready for the bigs, you know the whole moving votto to left and all.

i definitely haven't been dunns #1 fan but if the reds brought him back for ONE year i could live with that. it would be kinda funny if they did cuz then it would almost be like we received three decent players for free.


Talking to a friend today who is a player agent. He says the market is really tough this year and he is advising his clients to get to a team that will showcase their talents looking down the road a year or two when the market might be better. My friend does not represent any of the highest paid players so they may not be affected as much...but it is clear to me from our conversation that some/many of the free agents may sign very late this year and at prices lower than they originally expected in free agency.

this is why i think a short term contract would be better for most FA's. short term deals just make more sense to me when it's a bad year for FA's and the economy is in a slump. imo, it seems the best teams to showcase yourself would be playoff contenders and the biggest markets (anaheim, LA, boston, the mets, white sox...).

[Nasty_Boy]

Please please please quit saying that Dunn is like Dave Kingman! Kingman couldn't hold Dunn's jock. Here's a few numbers:

OBP
.381
.302

SLG
.518
.478

OPS+
130
115

BB
797
608

Runs
699
901

These are Dunn's numbers through 7.5 seasons, compared to Kingman's 16. He has already walked more than Kingman, he's on pace to score way more runs than Kingman. Kingman had 2 100 RBI seasons, Dunn has 4 in the last 5 years. Kingman had 1 40 HR season, Dunn has 5 straight. And even though I hate batting average, Dunn's career BA is 16 pts higher than King Kong. Dunn also has 278 HRs, while Kingman finished with 442... Dunn will be past that number by the time he's 33. Kingman only had 240 doubles, Dunn already has over 200. Did/do they both strikeout? yes. Did/do they hit for a high average? no. That is the only comparison between the 2! Dunn could very well end up with 600 HRs, especially if he stays healthy through this next contract.

[redsfanmia]

If the Reds bring Dunn back I would be shocked. Dunn is gone and the Reds have moved into a new and hopefully better direction. With Dunn and Griffey gone the team will have new leadership and hopefully a better clubhouse and one set of rules for everyone.

[Nasty_Boy]

If the Reds bring Dunn back I would be shocked. Dunn is gone and the Reds have moved into a new and hopefully better direction. With Dunn and Griffey gone the team will have new leadership and hopefully a better clubhouse and one set of rules for everyone.

That statement is BS... what rules were different? And I'm sorry every job has a certain amount of seniority that allows people who have been around a little wiggle room. Besides, the clubhouse had absolutely nothing to do with the Reds losing. That problem would be talent. Also, the Reds had the all time clubhouse guys for many years in Sean Casey, Aaron Boone, Jason LaRue, and Danny Graves and they didn't win. By all accounts Dusty, Pete, Narron, and Miley loved Dunn... Narron had a few run-ins with Jr over the move to RF, but these guys were great players that should be learned from not blamed for losing that they didn't create.

[I(heart)Freel]

It wouldnt make sense for the Reds to bring him back because their stated focus this off season was a right handed slugger and/or a leadoff man. Dunn is neither. The team also said it would work to shore up defense for the starting 8 in 2009. Again, Dunn doesn't qualify there.

To say nothing of the money he'd command even in a short term deal.

Just doesn't make sense for the Reds now.

I still can't believe Arizona didnt offer him arb...

[freestyle55]

So I'm gathering you're upset we parted w/ him and you would want him back.

Absolutely. We got a guy who may or may not be a 5th starter, a multi-position backup that we didn't need, and a single A pitcher with injury history for the greatest slugger the Reds have had since George Foster.

Obviously, if he wanted a $150 million contract, it wouldn't make sense for the Reds, but to throw him 4/$60 I wouldn't blink an eye. His offensive prowess doesn't just grow on trees, and it far outweighs his defensive shortcomings in my mind. He's going into his prime, and if the Reds could actually get someone to hit behind him, I believe you'll see his average rise. He was a .300 hitter in the minors. I'm not expecting that here, but I would think .260-.270 should be in his ability. If Votto or Bruce keeps developing, that's a heck of a 3-4-5.

I think the whole situational L-L-L is overrated as well. Dunn over his career isn't bad against lefties (.833 OPS) While Bruce didn't hit lefties that well this year, I would expect that to improve over the next year and beyond, and Votto did just fine against lefties. You could even throw Phillips in there as the 6 hitter, or possibly the 5 if you really had to break them up...Even Encarnacion helps out against righties

[redsfanmia]

That statement is BS... what rules were different? And I'm sorry every job has a certain amount of seniority that allows people who have been around a little wiggle room. Besides, the clubhouse had absolutely nothing to do with the Reds losing. That problem would be talent. Also, the Reds had the all time clubhouse guys for many years in Sean Casey, Aaron Boone, Jason LaRue, and Danny Graves and they didn't win. By all accounts Dusty, Pete, Narron, and Miley loved Dunn... Narron had a few run-ins with Jr over the move to RF, but these guys were great players that should be learned from not blamed for losing that they didn't create.

Johnny Bench said something along the lines of how much better the atmoshere was in the clubhouse the last month or so of the season and that with the subtraction of a few guys the negativity was gone. I think I will believe Johnny Lee Bench over some guy on a message board.

[Nasty_Boy]

Bwahahahahaha! What the hell does Johnny Bench know about this team? Atmosphere? Something along the lines? Give me a link. The negativity was probably Ryan Freel crying that he wasn't playing enough.

The difference between me and you is you believe something you think you heard Johnny Bench say, and I believe in production and professionalism. That's what I saw out of Dunn and Jr.

[757690]

The Market for DUnn Takes Shape

per Rosenthal:

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8885188/Market-shaping-up-for-Adam-Dunn?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=49


The market for free-agent outfielder Adam Dunn is starting to take shape.

The Braves, Mariners and Nationals are among the teams interested in Dunn, major-league sources say, and his list of suitors could grow quickly.

Dunn, 29, also represents a fallback position for the Dodgers if they lose Manny Ramirez and the Angels if they lose Mark Teixeira.

The Yankees, too, could emerge as an option if they strike out on the top free-agent starting pitchers.

The Diamondbacks declined to offer Dunn salary arbitration, so any team that signs him will not lose a high draft pick.

The Braves' focus remains starting pitching, but they also need a left fielder, and Dunn or Raul Ibanez could make sense depending upon their respective prices


Read into it what you will...

[redsfanmia]

Bwahahahahaha! What the hell does Johnny Bench know about this team? Atmosphere? Something along the lines? Give me a link. The negativity was probably Ryan Freel crying that he wasn't playing enough.

The difference between me and you is you believe something you think you heard Johnny Bench say, and I believe in production and professionalism. That's what I saw out of Dunn and Jr.

I believe someone who is in and out of the clubhouse.

[redsfandan]

Please please please quit saying that Dunn is like Dave Kingman! Kingman couldn't hold Dunn's jock. Here's a few numbers: ...

... Did/do they both strikeout? yes. Did/do they hit for a high average? no. That is the only comparison between the 2! Dunn could very well end up with 600 HRs, especially if he stays healthy through this next contract.

fwiw, no one actually said that dunn and Dave Kingman were EXACTLY the same. they're not. but they do have more similarities than differences.

what they have in common:
-BOTH known for their power
-BOTH had alot of strikeouts
-BOTH known for below avg ba
-BOTH known for below avg defense

what they don't have in common:
-walks/obp/plate discipline
-runs

runs can be influenced by alot of things like how much offense teams are scoring at the time and obp. dunn plays at a time when teams are expected to score a little more than they did 30+ years ago. now dunn is obviously the better player, and should top the career stats of kingman without a problem, but there's a reason why you've heard those comparisons. as far as skills and what they're known for the only SIGNIFICANT difference is the walks that give dunn a career obp that's 135 pts higher than his ba.


...By all accounts Dusty, Pete, Narron, and Miley loved Dunn... Narron had a few run-ins with Jr over the move to RF, but these guys were great players that should be learned from not blamed for losing that they didn't create.

yeah they aren't the reason the reds lost so much but i wouldn't say that they are ideal players that rookies could look up to and lean alot from either.



Obviously, if he wanted a $150 million contract, it wouldn't make sense for the Reds, but to throw him 4/$60 I wouldn't blink an eye.

and the reds can afford to hand out a $60million/4 year contract without blinking an eye? i don't think so.


I think I will believe Johnny Lee Bench over some guy on a message board.
x2



Bwahahahahaha! What the hell does Johnny Bench know about this team? Atmosphere? Something along the lines? Give me a link. The negativity was probably Ryan Freel crying that he wasn't playing enough.

it's just a hunch but i bet bench probably has a little more experience than you on what a winning mlb team is like off the field. i don't have a link but i heard the same thing and more than once.



The difference between me and you is you believe something you think you heard Johnny Bench say, and I believe in production and professionalism. That's what I saw out of Dunn and Jr.

dunn produced. jr wasn't able to produce most of the time. professionalism? well when i think of team players i don't think of those two.

[freestyle55]

and the reds can afford to hand out a $60million/4 year contract without blinking an eye? i don't think so.



If payroll goes up, which has been the rumor all offseason, yes, I think they can afford that contract. It's a $2,000,000 raise from last year, it doesn't go as long as the Griffey contract, and for a player of his caliber, it's par for the course.

If you want good players, you have to pay for them, or hit the lottery in the draft. Since we're still waiting to see if the last few drafts will pan out, who knows, we can get someone in here who has a history of producing better than any other Red in the past almost 30 years.

[Nasty_Boy]

You don't want rookies to learn from Jr. and Dunn? Wow! A surefire HOF'er and a guy that could hit 600 HRs, and you don't want your players learning from them. I don't understand what Dunn and Jr did that you don't want younger players doing? One played everyday and played hurt while still producing... The other worked his way back from 3 devistating injuries to still be a productive bat. They were selfless players that were good teammates. You never heard an annoucer or a writer question their professionalism or what kind of person they are, they only questioned their so-called lack of production.

Why don't you think of Dunn and Jr? Because Marty, Cowboy, and Daugherty told you so. Ask the guys (beat writers) around the team what they thought of them. Fay and McCoy both loved Dunn, Fay voted for him for the good guy award. McCoy wrote a glowing piece on Dunn after he was traded. Ctrent always spoke highly of them. You never ever heard a teammate saying a bad thing about these guys.

[Nasty_Boy]

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8885188/Market-shaping-up-for-Adam-Dunn


Market shaping up for Adam Dunnby Ken Rosenthal


Updated: December 3, 2008, 4:22 PM EST 6 comments add this RSS blog email Print The market for free-agent outfielder Adam Dunn is starting to take shape.

The Braves, Mariners and Nationals are among the teams interested in Dunn, major-league sources say, and his list of suitors could grow quickly.
Dunn, 29, also represents a fallback position for the Dodgers if they lose Manny Ramirez and the Angels if they lose Mark Teixeira.

The Yankees, too, could emerge as an option if they strike out on the top free-agent starting pitchers.

The Diamondbacks declined to offer Dunn salary arbitration, so any team that signs him will not lose a high draft pick.

The Braves' focus remains starting pitching, but they also need a left fielder, and Dunn or Raul Ibanez could make sense depending upon their respective prices.

The addition of right-hander Javier Vazquez will cost the Braves $11.5 million in each of the next two seasons, and the signing of free-agent right-hander A.J. Burnett would make the team less likely to spend big on a hitter.


It doesn't sound like things are quiet anymore.

[757690]

Startling news from Buster Olney:


There had been talk during the summer of Adam Dunn getting $15 million a year this winter, but now his salary range might be little more than half of that.

It's in the 9th paragraph.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3744094&name=olney_buster

[Emin3mShady07]

^^C'mon White Sox now is your chance!!!!! Hell, I'd even be really happy if the reds signed him for that. He would totally be worth way, way more than 8 million/year!

[redsfandan]

If payroll goes up, which has been the rumor all offseason, yes, I think they can afford that contract. It's a $2,000,000 raise from last year, it doesn't go as long as the Griffey contract, and for a player of his caliber, it's par for the course.

If you want good players, you have to pay for them, or hit the lottery in the draft. Since we're still waiting to see if the last few drafts will pan out, who knows, we can get someone in here who has a history of producing better than any other Red in the past almost 30 years.

sorry but no thanks. not for 4 years/$60 million...


^^C'mon White Sox now is your chance!!!!! Hell, I'd even be really happy if the reds signed him for that. He would totally be worth way, way more than 8 million/year!

THAT i'd do. but i'll really be surprised if he only makes that much.

[BRM13]

Did/do they both strikeout? yes. Did/do they hit for a high average? no. That is the only comparison between the 2!

You forgot that they're both about 6 foot 6 inches tall. :D

[Jack Burton]

Didn't Arroyo take a shot at dunn once he was gone? Seems like the team got on a lot better once these "professionals" hit the bricks.

[redsfandan]

Didn't Arroyo take a shot at dunn once he was gone? Seems like the team got on a lot better once these "professionals" hit the bricks.

true there was a little friction from both of them after the deal. dunn bashed the reds iirc. classy.

[Hondo]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3744094&name=olney_buster

Read the Bottom part as Dunn maight not get more than half the 15 Million a year they thought he would command last summer...

If he is avaiable for 10 Million. I hope Bob C brings him Back...

[Nasty_Boy]

Oh, the same Arroyo that was criticized for staying out too late and pitching with a hangover. The same Arroyo that some said, should play his guitar less and get in bed a little earlier. Sweet!

[redsfanmia]

Oh, the same Arroyo that was criticized for staying out too late and pitching with a hangover. The same Arroyo that some said, should play his guitar less and get in bed a little earlier. Sweet!

Bronson is a gamer and a stand up guy. I have never heard Bronson throw out any excuses and be portrayed as anything but a team guy. How could you stay out too late if you have to be at ball park at 2 pm?

[ChatterRed]

I just thought I'd stop by to say,

"Dunn sucks".

Alright, carry on.

[Hondo]

I just thought I'd stop by to say,

"Dunn sucks".

Alright, carry on.

Thats Busch League

[TheNext44]

I just thought I'd stop by to say,

"Dunn sucks".

Alright, carry on.

I am so glad that my first post on Redszone can be...

No he doesn't! :p:

But seriously, If the Dunn really is available for under $10 million a year, then they better try to sign him. I doubt he would want to come back, but they better make the effort at least. Dunn at $10 million a year is the best deal they will ever get, even if he is not righthanded.

Speaking of...He hits lefties pretty well, as does Votto, why the need for a right handed hitter? Dunn, Bruce, Votto would be tough for any pitcher to get through.

[Nasty_Boy]

Bronson is a gamer and a stand up guy. I have never heard Bronson throw out any excuses and be portrayed as anything but a team guy. How could you stay out too late if you have to be at ball park at 2 pm?

Look at his ERA in day games.

[redsfandan]

Dodgers Express Interest In Dunn
By Tim Dierkes [December 29 at 1:46pm CST]
According to ESPN's Jayson Stark, the Dodgers contacted Adam Dunn's agent over the holidays to express interest. If the Dodgers sign Dunn, Manny Ramirez could be in a really bad place. Other teams showing interest in Dunn: the Cubs, Nationals, Mariners, and Orioles. All five teams have surfaced in prior reports, with the Brewers also getting a mention while they were mulling a Mike Cameron trade.

There was a report nine days ago stating that the Cubs are Dunn's first choice. Today Stark puts it this way: "The Cubs had believed to be his top choice before the Dodgers entered the mix."

[wojo1025]

There we go. Dunn to LA which gives them a VERY crowded OF. Call them up, kick the tires on Kemp/Ethier, maybe even Andruw Jones if they're willing to pay the majority of his salary.

Also, how long until Manny flat out goes nuts? If LA signs Dunn they'll have no need for Manny, so where does he go then? *cough cough* C'mon Walt, at least check the interest!

[CesarGeronimo]

Dodgers Express Interest In Dunn
By Tim Dierkes [December 29 at 1:46pm CST]
According to ESPN's Jayson Stark, the Dodgers contacted Adam Dunn's agent over the holidays to express interest. If the Dodgers sign Dunn, Manny Ramirez could be in a really bad place. Other teams showing interest in Dunn: the Cubs, Nationals, Mariners, and Orioles. All five teams have surfaced in prior reports, with the Brewers also getting a mention while they were mulling a Mike Cameron trade.

There was a report nine days ago stating that the Cubs are Dunn's first choice. Today Stark puts it this way: "The Cubs had believed to be his top choice before the Dodgers entered the mix."

There it is! Manny is coming to Cincinnati!

Just kidding, I love Cincy and the Reds.

[reds1869]

Cubs, 16 million per year for 5 years.

[TheNext44]

Sweet!!! If he doesn't sign with the Reds, my second choice is the Dodgers, since I live here in LA. The Dodgers could really use a slugger like Dunn. I really hopes he signs here! I will be cutting work to go to a lot of games if he does! :)

[Strider]

Sporting News Today is saying the Dodgers are talking trade with the Mets shipping Andruw Jones to the Big Apple and apparently willing to pay most of the salary due him in the remaining time on his contract.

Looks like the Dodgers are making room for somebody. Dunner? Manny?

[ChatterRed]

Thats Busch League

I prefer Michelob Ultra.

My post was in keeping the spirit of the thread. But I was joking.

I just stopped by again to say Dunn = Dave Kingman

Have at it!!! :D

[I(heart)Freel]

If Dunn goes Dodger blue... it does make the hot stove league/Manny watch VERY interesting.

But before you think about Manny patrolling left for the Reds, dont you get the feeling Leatherpants will come in with a ridiculous offer to him, just to land someone this offseason? Although I'm not sure he's capable of scouting a player who has no affiliation/history with the Reds.

[redsfandan]

Manny Is Dodgers' First Choice
By Tim Dierkes [December 30 at 8:42am CST]
Bill Shaikin of the L.A. Times talked to Dodgers GM Ned Colletti, who said Manny Ramirez is the team's first choice. Colletti hasn't heard from Manny's agent Scott Boras since Mark Teixeira signed a week ago. As reported yesterday, the Dodgers have interest in Adam Dunn and Bobby Abreu as backup plans. Pat Burrell and Garret Anderson are not on the team's radar.

[Chi-Town Red]

just a hunch but i think he will end up with the Cubs

[Hybrid]

just a hunch but i think he will end up with the Cubs

I agree, and he'll kill the Reds on a consistent basis.
Him going to a divison rival would be bad enough...him going to the Cubs would be a nightmare.

[I(heart)Freel]

just a hunch but i think he will end up with the Cubs

Didnt the Peavy deal die because Cubs had no payroll flexibility?

They'd have to sell off a high priced starter or two to fit Man-Ram. Suddenly that Dumpster contract hurts even more.

[Strider]

All is still quiet on the Dunn.

Fox News had an article this week profiling the "stars" that can't find a home...

Poor Adam Dunn. He's waited his turn. He's been under team control. He's gone through the arbitration process. He's paid the dues that his union has decided are appropriate for him to pay while waiting for his first opportunity for the big payday.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9105188/It's-not-too-late-to-land-big,-free-agent-stars

Scroll down to the last profile to find Dunn. The Nationals...blech...

[Nasty_Boy]

He's still better than anyone on the Redlegs.

[Bip Roberts]

He's still better than anyone on the Redlegs.

if you ignore defense then sure

[Nasty_Boy]

What if Gomes gets the majority of the ABs in LF? Hell, just throw Willy in CF... then we are worse offensively and defensively. I really don't care... please just get me a SS!

[DntKnw]

All is still quiet on the Dunn.

Fox News had an article this week profiling the "stars" that can't find a home...

Poor Adam Dunn. He's waited his turn. He's been under team control. He's gone through the arbitration process. He's paid the dues that his union has decided are appropriate for him to pay while waiting for his first opportunity for the big payday.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9105188/It's-not-too-late-to-land-big,-free-agent-stars

Scroll down to the last profile to find Dunn. The Nationals...blech...

Has anyone considered that the Blue Jays GM was right and that is why teams are laying off Dunn? $56MM is a lot for a guy who has the perception of not really seeming to care.

[Emin3mShady07]

Has anyone considered that the Blue Jays GM was right and that is why teams are laying off Dunn? $56MM is a lot for a guy who has the perception of not really seeming to care.

Maybe the perception is wrong. Dusty Baker has this perception that the leadoff hitter has to be speedy and that is not an accurate perception by any means. Dunn is worth $10 million to me next year if he produces in a similar way to this past season but he has the kind of body that doesn't look like it will age well which is why I feel teams are hesitant to hand out that multi year deal. JP ricarrdi is kind of a jerk himself so I wouldn't listen to much of what he says anyways.

[CesarGeronimo]

Has anyone considered that the Blue Jays GM was right and that is why teams are laying off Dunn? $56MM is a lot for a guy who has the perception of not really seeming to care.

I think it's a huge exaggeration to say that Dunn doesn't care. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say he's laid back compared to a lot of players. Something that you hear a lot from successful coaches in various sports is that you can have laid back players on a great team, but you don't want your best players to be laid back because others will follow that lead. They say you want you best players to be high-effort guys in off-season training and in practice because it will push others to work to get better.

I know some people here don't buy into any of that team personality stuff, but I think Dunn should pick a team where he's not the best player, where he's just one of the cogs in a strong lineup. He shouldn't go with top money - maybe the Nationals - but should pick a destination where he can be himself and do what he does on and off the field without the pressure of being the team leader (and possible scapegoat). In that kind of scenario, he's an offensive players who could help make a very good offense great.

[jnwohio]

I think it's a huge exaggeration to say that Dunn doesn't care. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say he's laid back compared to a lot of players. Something that you hear a lot from successful coaches in various sports is that you can have laid back players on a great team, but you don't want your best players to be laid back because others will follow that lead.............
.........Dunn should pick a team where he's not the best player, where he's just one of the cogs in a strong lineup. .........should pick a destination where he can be himself and do what he does on and off the field without the pressure of being the team leader (and possible scapegoat). In that kind of scenario, he's an offensive players who could help make a very good offense great.

I don't necessarily disagree with you; but, where is a 40HR, 100RBI, 100 run, 100 walk, 150K guy going going to be just another cog and not have pressure and high expectations? There are places where he could be lost in the shuffle so long as things were going great but at the 1st sign of problems, he'd be right back on the front burner.

I saw where C.Trent asked Jocketty directly about Dunn at the caravan kick off. C.Trent inferred in his question that Dunn wanted to come back to Cincy at this point. Jocketty said that he thought it was unlikely and doubtfull such a return would happen. However given Mr Castellini's recent media gaffe, unless Jocketty or Dusty absolutely doesn't want Dunn on the team, I could see Dunn ending up back in Cincy, if he offers them enough of a home town discount, as "proof" they haven't canned the season .

Why Dunn in this situation over some of the other possibilities? He would give them a lot of what they need on the field. He is a known quantity in the clubhouse and community. And the fact he stirs such controversey (i.e interest) among the fans wouldn't exactly be a negative when they might be looking at a real yawner of a year. Of course if money is as tight as they are acting like right now, if they signed Dunn that would probably mean they'd end up trading Harang, Arroyo, or Cordero to make up the money.

[CesarGeronimo]

I don't necessarily disagree with you; but, where is a 40HR, 100RBI, 100 run, 100 walk, 150K guy going going to be just another cog and not have pressure and high expectations? There are places where he could be lost in the shuffle so long as things were going great but at the 1st sign of problems, he'd be right back on the front burner.

I saw where C.Trent asked Jocketty directly about Dunn at the caravan kick off. C.Trent inferred in his question that Dunn wanted to come back to Cincy at this point. Jocketty said that he thought it was unlikely and doubtfull such a return would happen. However given Mr Castellini's recent media gaffe, unless Jocketty or Dusty absolutely doesn't want Dunn on the team, I could see Dunn ending up back in Cincy, if he offers them enough of a home town discount, as "proof" they haven't canned the season .

Why Dunn in this situation over some of the other possibilities? He would give them a lot of what they need on the field. He is a known quantity in the clubhouse and community. And the fact he stirs such controversey (i.e interest) among the fans wouldn't exactly be a negative when they might be looking at a real yawner of a year. Of course if money is as tight as they are acting like right now, if they signed Dunn that would probably mean they'd end up trading Harang, Arroyo, or Cordero to make up the money.

I'd be all for the Reds bringing Dunn back at a reasonable cost, but if they do so, somebody needs to tell Dusty he has to put Dunn near the top of the order. How would you arrange the order if Dunn was in left field? We know Tavaras is leading off, per Dusty (I'm choosing to look at that like tearing off a band aid - you get the pain over with fast). I'd have Dunn bat second, followed by Votto, Encarnacion, Bruce, Phillips, Dickerson, Gonzalez and Hernandez.

[jnwohio]

I'd be all for the Reds bringing Dunn back at a reasonable cost, but if they do so, somebody needs to tell Dusty he has to put Dunn near the top of the order. How would you arrange the order if Dunn was in left field? We know Tavaras is leading off, per Dusty (I'm choosing to look at that like tearing off a band aid - you get the pain over with fast). I'd have Dunn bat second, followed by Votto, Encarnacion, Bruce, Phillips, Dickerson, Gonzalez and Hernandez.


I'm somewhat ambivalent about them bringing back Dunn at this point in time. They desparately need what he would bring offensively. On the other hand, they also need to turn the page so far as the personality of the team.

I'm among those who always believed Dunn was NOT a cancer in the clubhouse. In a way I thought he was like the goose that laid golden eggs. Often nobody else on the team was doing anything near what they needed from them while Dunn was for the most part getting his job taken care of but because of the failure of others was always under pressure to give a little more. If it were a year from now and the situation was the same, I'd say sign Dunn up if the price was right; but this may be too soon to keep from falling back into the same old trap.

Then on the other side of the coin, if there is no one else they can get to fill the power void and Dunn offers them a sweethart "home town" rate for a 1 year deal, it would be hard to walk away from. I think a lot of it just comes down to how would his presence affect the likes of Phillips, Bruce, and Votto. Maybe Jockeety would need to just sit down with them individually in private and talk it through to help make his decision.

As far as where to bat him if he did come back, well one of his strengths is that he has shown that what you get is what you get pretty much regardless where you put him in the order. So in that sense he would be ideal because you could just drop him into whichever slot worked best based on the rest of the team. With his OBP, I always thought it would even be feasible to take a look at him in the lead off spot. As the game progressed, I think his presence in the 1 slot would lead to the 8 hitter and even decent hitting pitchers seeing a lot more hittable pitches.

[Strider]

Then on the other side of the coin, if there is no one else they can get to fill the power void and Dunn offers them a sweetheart "home town" rate for a 1 year deal, it would be hard to walk away from.

I think that's the key with Dunn. He could probably find more suitors with a one year deal. I think teams do not want to invest in a four year deal with Adam. If he were to agree with a one year deal with perhaps an option, I could get interested in bringing him back to the Reds. Four years at $56M is too much. To get a bite he will have to shorten and lower his demands in this buyers market.

[redsfandan]

I'll be curious to see if Dunn (and Abreu) are still available when pitchers and catchers report. There may not be anyone else that had as much of a difference between what they expected and what they'll likely end up with.

[Ghosts of 1990]

I think Dunn will cave and sign anywhere for a porous amount just to be in camp by the time pitchers and catchers report

[Nasty_Boy]

The big guy should take a lesser offer on a 1-2 year deal with the team that would benefit most with him in the lineup. If he signs with say Boston, he could put up some massive numbers with the protection he would bring along with the protection he would get. Theo is big on getting players that have high OBP and are considered above league average for their position. He could then turn that 1-2 contract into a much bigger payday if he produces like he has in the past.

[Slyder]

The big guy should take a lesser offer on a 1-2 year deal with the team that would benefit most with him in the lineup. If he signs with say Boston, he could put up some massive numbers with the protection he would bring along with the protection he would get. Theo is big on getting players that have high OBP and are considered above league average for their position. He could then turn that 1-2 contract into a much bigger payday if he produces like he has in the past.

That would be scary for the people sitting down at Pesky's Pole with some of the homers Dunn would Crush. If theres a park more built for Dunn than GABP its Fenway Dunn would absolutely mash a crap ton of HRs down that short RF porch.

[bgwilly31]

i Feel sorry for dunn.

I like the guy. I think griffey ruined him. Thats why he played FAT here.

He's running out of time he better sign somewhere.

[CesarGeronimo]

Well, here's a couple more reasons the Reds won't sign Dunn at any cost. According to Hal McCoy's blog (at the end of a post about Chris Dickerson), Dusty says that two of the three biggest problems on last year's team were too many strikeouts and veteran players who weren't upset enough about losing.


Baker said he senses the younger players get it more than some of the players who began with the team last season and there were three things he noticed last season that has to change:

ONE - “We had excessive strikeouts.” TWO - “We played poor defense.” THREE - “When we lost, some guys left the clubhouse like it was no big deal. It is a big deal to me. I don’t like to lose. My daddy used to tell people around me after I was part of a loss, ‘Stay away from him for about a week.’”

http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2009/01/25/chris_dickerson_im_your_man.html

[Slyder]

Well, here's a couple more reasons the Reds won't sign Dunn at any cost. According to Hal McCoy's blog (at the end of a post about Chris Dickerson), Dusty says that two of the three biggest problems on last year's team were too many strikeouts and veteran players who weren't upset enough about losing.

I guess Dickerson's goose is cooked cause he's going to K too much to be effective and theyll claim that Hairston plays better d:rolleyes:. Just like saying this team is better with Norris Hopper in LF rather than Dunn.

[Nasty_Boy]

Yet, Patterson's 57 K's in 366 AB's weren't a big deal. Or Bako's 90 in 299 ABs?

And we still bring in a leadoff hitter with 200 more Ks than walks... we have a rookie RF that struck out at a pace that Ryan Howard would be proud of.

Tell Dusty if he doesn't want to lose he should lobby to sign guys like Bako and Patterson, and proceed to give them the most ABs at their respective positions. Dusty will never take the blame if his team doesn't perform, he loved being able to throw Wayne under the bus so he didn't look bad. The guy is a joke and has no business managing a major league team.

[bgwilly31]

Well, here's a couple more reasons the Reds won't sign Dunn at any cost. According to Hal McCoy's blog (at the end of a post about Chris Dickerson), Dusty says that two of the three biggest problems on last year's team were too many strikeouts and veteran players who weren't upset enough about losing.


Hahah so i wonder how many more comments like this its going to take for all the griffey lovers that were argueing so hard that, veteran players were not the problem last year.