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BUTLER REDSFAN
11-28-2008, 01:05 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2008/11/28/2008-11-28_worker_dies_at_long_island_walmart_after.html

jmcclain19
11-28-2008, 02:39 PM
I honestly hope they press charges against all the people stampeding thru the door.

Absolutely tragic.

bucksfan2
11-28-2008, 02:44 PM
Its a shame that there weren't enough decent people there the prevent this from happening.

Falls City Beer
11-28-2008, 07:52 PM
I'd sue Wal-Mart till they're blue in the face if I'm this person's family. Can't even protect their own workers. Where was security? You'd think an organization that is worth upwards of a trillion dollars could find a way to have two or three more security guards in each store on Black Friday. Guess not.

Ltlabner
11-28-2008, 08:03 PM
I'd sue Wal-Mart till they're blue in the face if I'm this person's family. Can't even protect their own workers. Where was security? You'd think an organization that is worth upwards of a trillion dollars could find a way to have two or three more security guards in each store on Black Friday. Guess not.

Additionally the people who stomped over these poor people should be tracked down and thrown in jail.

Plenty of blame on both sides. The store for allowing the mayhem to develop and the hammerheads for killing people over X-boxes.

Sick stuff.

Falls City Beer
11-28-2008, 08:09 PM
Additionally the people who stomped over these poor people should be tracked down and thrown in jail.

Plenty of blame on both sides. The store for allowing the mayhem to develop and the hammerheads for killing people over X-boxes.

Sick stuff.

Good luck tracking down several hundred people.

The store knew they had a problem on their hands before they even opened the doors. Seriously, they needed tear gas to disperse that crowd.

It's funny, though, that in other countries people trample others for rice and clean water; in this country it's Playstation 3's.

LoganBuck
11-28-2008, 09:50 PM
Good luck tracking down several hundred people.

The store knew they had a problem on their hands before they even opened the doors. Seriously, they needed tear gas to disperse that crowd.

It's funny, though, that in other countries people trample others for rice and clean water; in this country it's Playstation 3's.

I bet they used credit cards for what they purchased.

KronoRed
11-28-2008, 10:38 PM
I bet they used credit cards for what they purchased.

Just what I was thinking.

No way these people didn't know they were stomping on a human being, man slaughter charges for them all, of course sue Wally world for not doing enough to prevent this.

AmarilloRed
11-28-2008, 10:51 PM
I work at Wal-Mart as a Greeter, so I guess I can speak on this subject. There should have been more people present at the door to maintain order. For example , today we had 2 trained greeters, a cashier with greeter experience, 2 members of the night shift crew to help out, and another associate, all at GM Door. They should have better planning to prevent this situation, and it needn't ever have happened. BTW, Wal-Mart doesn't employ any security guards. They may re-consider that after this situation.

Chip R
11-28-2008, 11:19 PM
I bet they used credit cards for what they purchased.


One would think so but are you going to arrest everyone who bought something between the time the doors opened and an hour or two later? As FCB said, good luck with that.

Razor Shines
11-28-2008, 11:39 PM
I'd sue Wal-Mart till they're blue in the face if I'm this person's family. Can't even protect their own workers. Where was security? You'd think an organization that is worth upwards of a trillion dollars could find a way to have two or three more security guards in each store on Black Friday. Guess not.

You're probably right, but it's pretty sad that people can't be expected to act with even the tiniest bit of decency. I think Wal-Mart gets the blame by default, but the problem does is not with Wal-Mart, it's with stupid, selfish people. Should this Wal-Mart store have been better prepared? Absolutely, but it's most likely that this store wasn't following company guidelines. The outcry should be toward disgusting people who consider no one but themselves.

My wife is a retail manager and I've been involved in my share of Black Friday shopping, 99% of people would not act the way the people did at that Wal-Mart in Long Island.

Smokin Joe
11-29-2008, 02:22 AM
You can't give 500-1000 guests a straight shot to the doors. I'm a retail manager at a SuperTarget and while the opportunity is there, most people are patient about waiting in line. This year we put one full row of carts and angled it from the entrance way, this way everyone that waited for hours got in first and the rush of traffic was manageable. Last year we had people run up from their cars and blended in with the line, causing a few moments of concern as I heard a few profanity laced tirades from the back of the row.

GAC
11-29-2008, 06:39 AM
Like this sort of thing hasn't happened before? What is wrong with these retailers? How can they create situations like this and not be better prepared?

And more importantly..... how can fellow human beings trample over someone lying on the ground like that, show such indifference, and not care? This just boggles my mind!

Black Friday has earned it's name.

About 6 years ago my younger brother (and wife) got up around 4 AM to line up at a local Walmart for Black Friday sales. They were close to the head of the line, and by 6 AM it was pretty long. Many already had their carts st the ready.

Anyway - just a few minutes before the store opened, this woman, with cart in tow, who had just gotten there, decided she was somehow better, more deserving, then everyone else who had been waiting in line 2-3 hrs, and was going to waltz right by the entire line as the doors opened.

My brother used his cart in a blocking maneuver and told her the line starts back there. The woman went nuts, it almost turned physical on her part, and several others soon jumped in.

That was the last time my brother has ever gone out on Black Friday.

I went out yesterday afternoon to the local Super Walmart. My computer keyboard quit on me and I needed a new one. It wasn't that bad here, but Bellefontaine in not some huge metropolis either.

They had a good deal on a 50" Samsung HD plasma TV for $800 though. ;)

LoganBuck
11-29-2008, 08:18 AM
One would think so but are you going to arrest everyone who bought something between the time the doors opened and an hour or two later? As FCB said, good luck with that.

Match the credit cards to the security footage. There are no secrets in Walmart.

Chip R
11-29-2008, 11:07 AM
Match the credit cards to the security footage. There are no secrets in Walmart.


And how are you going to tell who was in line at what time? How do you put a face to a name? What if they paid by check? For all we know, the security camera caught the back of their heads.

Even if you were able to round these people up, they coud just say they were pushed from behind by other shoppers and if they didn't keep moving, they woud suffer the same fate as the poor guy who got trampled.

Ltlabner
11-29-2008, 12:37 PM
The chances of actually being able to bring people up on charges for their participation is slim to none, I agree.

Doesn't mean some effort shouldn't be put into seeing if it can be done.

It's really easy to blame the corporation, especially since it's everybody's fav target Wall-Mart. Don't get me wrong, they are most definitely part of the blame and should be punished. Sue away. All of those stores who set up the stampede scanario are playing with fire. But at the same time it's really easy to place the blame on the big bad evil corporation and overlook that there were a bunch of lug-nuts who actually stomped people to death to get something on sale and save a few bucks. Just because the store had the sale and allowed the situation to develop doesn't mean the shoppers are obligated to trample others to death.

Blame on the store for setting up the dangerous situation and blame on the idiots who took place in the dash for the cash.

There is culpability on both sides.

LoganBuck
11-29-2008, 01:55 PM
And how are you going to tell who was in line at what time? How do you put a face to a name? What if they paid by check? For all we know, the security camera caught the back of their heads.

Even if you were able to round these people up, they coud just say they were pushed from behind by other shoppers and if they didn't keep moving, they woud suffer the same fate as the poor guy who got trampled.

If they can find anyone that is culpable, they need to do it. They need to make an example out of someone. If you go to a bar tonight and get in a fight with someone over a pool cue you go to jail. Apparently it is ok to act like a complete idiot, get in fights, and kill someone for $20 off of a Guitar Hero bundle, as long as it is at Walmart on Black Friday.

Falls City Beer
11-29-2008, 01:56 PM
The chances of actually being able to bring people up on charges for their participation is slim to none, I agree.

Doesn't mean some effort shouldn't be put into seeing if it can be done.

It's really easy to blame the corporation, especially since it's everybody's fav target Wall-Mart. Don't get me wrong, they are most definitely part of the blame and should be punished. Sue away. All of those stores who set up the stampede scanario are playing with fire. But at the same time it's really easy to place the blame on the big bad evil corporation and overlook that there were a bunch of lug-nuts who actually stomped people to death to get something on sale and save a few bucks. Just because the store had the sale and allowed the situation to develop doesn't mean the shoppers are obligated to trample others to death.

Blame on the store for setting up the dangerous situation and blame on the idiots who took place in the dash for the cash.

There is culpability on both sides.

The problem with blaming the stompers is: "who is a 'shover' and who is the 'shoved?'" Who are the "offenders?" It's hard to tell. It's many individuals but one mind when you have a mob. Unfortunately, there's no telling apart the bad from the good.

Did anyone want to prosecute individuals when the Who concert went awry in Cincy in 1979? Of course not; it was a tragedy caused by mob mentality--Riverfront Coliseum's security failures were culpable, not the mob, frankly.

I'd like every person to act like a dottering 85 year old with a cane went it comes to moving in a large mass, but that's just not human nature. Young and strong people move rapidly and forcefully towards the things marketers tell us we MUST have or we're not worth a damn as human beings.

Chip R
11-29-2008, 03:16 PM
If they can find anyone that is culpable, they need to do it. They need to make an example out of someone. If you go to a bar tonight and get in a fight with someone over a pool cue you go to jail. Apparently it is ok to act like a complete idiot, get in fights, and kill someone for $20 off of a Guitar Hero bundle, as long as it is at Walmart on Black Friday.


I agree that if they can find the responsible parties, they should do it. But it isn't as easy as finding someone who killed someone else at a bar with a pool cue. As FCB said, who are the shovers and who are the shovees? If I'm in the middle of that mess and you're behind me and we're both moving forward because if we stop we'll be trampled, who is responsible if someone falls down in front of me and you and 50 other people are pushing me forward? Maybe someone before me knocked that guy down and I didn't even realize it because it was too late.

I'm the kind of guy who knows what he wants and isn't going to screw around in the store for an hour and a half. If I go in there 15 minutes after opening when there's no line and I find what I want, am I going to be prosecuted because when I paid for my stuff, it might coincide with the time they opened the store?

Ltlabner
11-29-2008, 07:08 PM
Cool..apparently we can now all do whatever we want as long as we have a big enough group of friends with us.

The idea that the stompers weren't partly responsible is asanine. Pushing or pushed is inmaterial. These people could have simply wised up and left before the store even opened. Dont want to be part of a mob? Simple....stay out of the damn thing altogether.

They chose to stay and chose to participate, therefore they are culpable. Some to a lesser degree (someone at the back of the herd) and some to a greater degree (those who physically trampled people, Wal-Mart).

George Foster
11-29-2008, 07:36 PM
In 1994 I was in a similar situation in downtown Atlanta on New Years eve. We were waiting for the fireworks in a crowned plaza that was surrounded by walls. Someone let off some firecrackers that sounded like gun fire. It was crazy! Everybody moved toward the exit at once. You had no control over which direction your body was going. I was squeezed so hard I could hardly take a breath. I knew if I fell, I was dead. I feared for my life. Again, I had no control over which direction I was moving.

To my knowledge, they have not released the video of the actual trampling. I would think the people at the front of the line was in the same situation I was in. They were pushed, and had to go forward.

This also happened at "The Who" concert in Cincy back in either 79, or 80. I think 7 or 9 people died.

Ltlabner
11-29-2008, 07:44 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27955316/


updated 5:51 a.m. ET, Sat., Nov. 29, 2008
NEW YORK - Police were reviewing video from surveillance cameras in an attempt to identify who trampled to death a Wal-Mart worker after a crowd of post-Thanksgiving shoppers burst through the doors at a suburban store and knocked him down.

Criminal charges were possible, but identifying individual shoppers in Friday's video may prove difficult, said Detective Lt. Michael Fleming, a Nassau County police spokesman.

Other workers were trampled as they tried to rescue the man, and customers stepped over him and became irate when officials said the store was closing because of the death, police and witnesses said.

Story continues below ↓
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At least four other people, including a woman who was eight months pregnant, were taken to hospitals for observation or minor injuries. The store in Valley Stream on Long Island closed for several hours before reopening.

Police said about 2,000 people were gathered outside the Wal-Mart doors before its 5 a.m. opening at a mall about 20 miles east of Manhattan. The impatient crowd knocked the employee, identified by police as Jdimytai Damour, to the ground as he opened the doors, leaving a metal portion of the frame crumpled like an accordion.

"This crowd was out of control," Fleming said. He described the scene as "utter chaos," and said the store didn't have enough security.

Dozens of store employees trying to fight their way out to help Damour were also getting trampled by the crowd, Fleming said. Shoppers stepped over the man on the ground and streamed into the store.

Damour, 34, of Queens, was taken to a hospital, where he was pronounced dead around 6 a.m., police said. The exact cause of death has not been determined.'

'Savages'
A 28-year-old pregnant woman was taken to a hospital, where she and the baby were reported to be OK, said police Sgt. Anthony Repalone.

Kimberly Cribbs, who witnessed the stampede, said shoppers were acting like "savages."

"When they were saying they had to leave, that an employee got killed, people were yelling `I've been on line since yesterday morning,'" she said. "They kept shopping."

Wal-Mart Stores Inc., based in Bentonville, Ark., called the incident a "tragic situation" and said the employee came from a temporary agency and was doing maintenance work at the store. It said it tried to prepare for the crowd by adding staffers and outside security workers, putting up barricades and consulting police.

"Despite all of our precautions, this unfortunate event occurred," senior Vice President Hank Mullany said in a statement. "Our thoughts and prayers go out to the families of those impacted."

A woman reported being trampled by overeager customers at a Wal-Mart opening Friday in Farmingdale, about 15 miles east of Valley Stream, Suffolk County police said. She suffered minor injuries, but finished shopping before filling the report, police said.

Shoppers around the country line up early outside stores on the day after Thanksgiving in the annual bargain-hunting ritual known as Black Friday. It got that name because it has historically been the day when stores broke into profitability for the full year.

Items on sale at the Valley Stream Wal-Mart included a Samsung 50-inch Plasma HDTV for $798, a Bissel Compact Upright Vacuum for $28, a Samsung 10.2 megapixel digital camera for $69 and DVDs such as "The Incredible Hulk" for $9.

Falls City Beer
11-29-2008, 07:46 PM
Cool..apparently we can now all do whatever we want as long as we have a big enough group of friends with us.

The idea that the stompers weren't partly responsible is asanine. Pushing or pushed is inmaterial. These people could have simply wised up and left before the store even opened. Dont want to be part of a mob? Simple....stay out of the damn thing altogether.

They chose to stay and chose to participate, therefore they are culpable. Some to a lesser degree (someone at the back of the herd) and some to a greater degree (those who physically trampled people).

Hey if being guilty means being at the wrong place at the wrong time, might as well sue the family of the dead man for being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

If I had to guess, I'd say the "most" guilty were the strongest or the fattest. Start there. Again, good luck with that.

Ltlabner
11-29-2008, 07:50 PM
Hey if being guilty means being at the wrong place at the wrong time, might as well sue the family of the dead man for being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Wrong place wrong time? You do realize these people CHOSE to get out of bed and go to the store right? There wasn't some invisible tractor beam forcing them to go there. Neither were they just happening along the side walk and got swept into the crowd.

They made a conscious choice to be apart of what any reasonable person could foresee as a potential problem. They made a specific choice to line up in an effort to save some cash. They put THEMSELVES into this position. Wal-Mart made the position possible, and as such deserves to be sued to bajeebers, but the people involved in the mob made a choice to participate. They got in the car, drove to the store, saw the scene developing, walked out of their cars, walked up to the growing crowd and continued to stand there as the crowd got bigger.

Or are people just not responsible for any choice they make? Is it always someone else's fault?

WMR
11-29-2008, 07:59 PM
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc316/steveh1010/gal_walmart_stampede_03.jpg

Good luck identifying culpable parties in this mass of humanity.

Chip R
11-29-2008, 08:07 PM
Wrong place wrong time? You do realize these people CHOSE to get out of bed and go to the store right? There wasn't some invisible tractor beam forcing them to go there. Neither were they just happening along the side walk and got swept into the crowd.

They made a conscious choice to be apart of what any reasonable person could foresee as a potential problem. They made a specific choice to line up in an effort to save some cash. They put THEMSELVES into this position. Wal-Mart made the position possible, and as such deserves to be sued to bajeebers, but the people involved in the mob made a choice to participate. They got in the car, drove to the store, saw the scene developing, walked out of their cars, walked up to the growing crowd and continued to stand there as the crowd got bigger.

Or are people just not responsible for any choice they make? Is it always someone else's fault?


Nobody went there with the intention to stomp someone to death. Thousands of other places had these sales and nobody died. I don't think people should be free to do whatever they want but even the police are saying identifying individual shoppers will be difficult. Even if they do, they are going to have problems deciding who was responsible.

Falls City Beer
11-29-2008, 08:15 PM
Wrong place wrong time? You do realize these people CHOSE to get out of bed and go to the store right? There wasn't some invisible tractor beam forcing them to go there. Neither were they just happening along the side walk and got swept into the crowd.

They made a conscious choice to be apart of what any reasonable person could foresee as a potential problem. They made a specific choice to line up in an effort to save some cash. They put THEMSELVES into this position. Wal-Mart made the position possible, and as such deserves to be sued to bajeebers, but the people involved in the mob made a choice to participate. They got in the car, drove to the store, saw the scene developing, walked out of their cars, walked up to the growing crowd and continued to stand there as the crowd got bigger.

Or are people just not responsible for any choice they make? Is it always someone else's fault?

So you have a couple grand criminals, do you? By and large it sounds like the biggest crime committed was shopping.

It boils down to this: who had the power to control this situation? Let's say a customer who was waiting outside called the police, imagining that something bad might happen when the doors were opened. I'd argue that even if the police showed up, they'd find nothing to charge anyone with. I doubt they'd disperse the crowd. I imagine corporate would have had the officer's head who attempted to disperse a crowd of willing shoppers.

However, security could have forced the crowd to form lines, let people in a bit at a time, etc.

I'm trying to be practical. I guess if you want to pull the camera back and get a wide-angle view on this, then yeah, people are materialist imbeciles. No argument. I'd rather take a bullet between the eyes than shop among Black Friday crowds. I'm just not sure where you're going to find the "wrongdoers" here. As far as I'm concerned, Wal-Mart (and many other stores) are doing the equivalent of yelling "fire" in a crowded theater by allowing these conditions to exist outside their stores.

Ltlabner
11-29-2008, 09:17 PM
I don't think people should be free to do whatever they want but even the police are saying identifying individual shoppers will be difficult. Even if they do, they are going to have problems deciding who was responsible.

Oh I agree. Probably impossible. Just saying that some people are actually responsible for this guy getting killed. I disagree with FCB's contention that the only guilty party here is Wal-Mart and advertisers.



I'm just not sure where you're going to find the "wrongdoers" here.

I agree 100% that practically speaking nobody is likely to face any charges here. My guess is the police will go through the motions and after an appropriate amount of time declare that they can't actually find the person(s) responsible let alone build a case against them.

I just disagree with your contention that physically stomping another human to death isn't "wrong" and that it's entirely Wal-Marts fault. I know your distain for corporations, market economies, and capitalism but it's beyond silly to lay this entirely at Wal-Mart's feet. The bulk of the blame? Definitely. The entire blame? Not a chance.

WMR
11-29-2008, 09:29 PM
1010WINS in NYC is reporting that the police are pouring over the security footage to try and identify guilty/culpable parties.

OldRightHander
11-29-2008, 11:01 PM
I just realized I was in that Wal Mart last week. This whole thing just saddens me to no end, not just because of the guy who died, but because of what it says about our society where rampant materialism is the order of the day, even to the point of trampling over other people just to get some thing that you so desperately need. Absolutely sickening.

Chip R
11-30-2008, 12:11 AM
Oh I agree. Probably impossible. Just saying that some people are actually responsible for this guy getting killed. I disagree with FCB's contention that the only guilty party here is Wal-Mart and advertisers.

I agree 100% that practically speaking nobody is likely to face any charges here. My guess is the police will go through the motions and after an appropriate amount of time declare that they can't actually find the person(s) responsible let alone build a case against them.

I just disagree with your contention that physically stomping another human to death isn't "wrong" and that it's entirely Wal-Marts fault. I know your distain for corporations, market economies, and capitalism but it's beyond silly to lay this entirely at Wal-Mart's feet. The bulk of the blame? Definitely. The entire blame? Not a chance.


This isn't Wal Mart's first rodeo. I would think that they have some kind of procedure in place for these type of days. I'm guessing that that particular store did not follow proper procedure. Otherwise, Wal Mart is lucky it hasn't occured elsewhere. I would guess that even if Wal Mart had a procedure in place to prevent this and if this store did not follow that procedure, Wal Mart might still have some liability here. Perhaps not as much as if they didn't have a proper procedure in place but the victims aren't going to get a lot from the store manager.


I just realized I was in that Wal Mart last week. This whole thing just saddens me to no end, not just because of the guy who died, but because of what it says about our society where rampant materialism is the order of the day, even to the point of trampling over other people just to get some thing that you so desperately need. Absolutely sickening.

I agree 100% ORH. Except I doubt these people are in Wal Mart - or any other store - getting something they desperately need. It isn't food, water or medicine. You could understand it then. It's interesting that people behave better in crises like the blackout or 9/11 or a flood than they do on Black Friday or the day after Christmas.

AmarilloRed
11-30-2008, 01:04 AM
However, security could have forced the crowd to form lines, let people in a bit at a time, etc.

The only problem is that Wal-Mart, as stated earlier by me, has no security officers. We have a division that deals with discouraging theft, but no one to keep order in either the store or the parking lot. I will describe what happened at my Wal-Mart in comparison. We let people in early, let them form lines near the merchandise, and stationed many associates near both the doors to keep order. I do think they should consider having security officers in the future, though.

Razor Shines
11-30-2008, 01:08 AM
I think you guys are missing that MOST people do not act the way these people did. Most people (yes even horrible Black Friday shoppers) would not trample a person to death. Has this happened before? Yes, but when you think of the shear number of people that are out on Black Friday every year the percentage of people that act like animals is extremely minuscule. The problem isn't with crowds or with Black Friday shopping or even materialism (which is bad in of itself) the lion share of problem is with these people. Is there any action to be taken against the people responsible? Probably not. This particular Wal-Mart should have had a better plan for controlling the entering crowds, and for not being prepared they should pay a steep price.

GAC
11-30-2008, 01:23 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/30/nyregion/30walmart.html

Mourning a Good Friend, and Trying to Make Sense of a Stampede

Jdimytai Damour was a big man — 270 pounds, by one account — but he was a gentle giant to his friends, who said he loved to chat about movies, Japanese anime and politics. So on Saturday, they were still reeling from the violent and seemingly inexplicable way that Mr. Damour had died — trampled before sunrise on Friday, the police said, by rampaging shoppers running into a Wal-Mart store on Long Island where he was working as a maintenance man for the holidays.
Skip to next paragraph

A day after a worker was trampled to death, shoppers lined up outside a Wal-Mart on Saturday and police cars patrolled the area.

“If you wanted to know about a show, this was the guy, and he had a great sense of humor,” said Jean Olivier, who met Mr. Damour eight years ago in the Rosedale section of Queens, a few minutes’ drive from the store where he was killed. “He was the guy who was always lively. He would have personally gotten out of the way if he knew they wanted that stuff.”

Shoppers started lining up late Thursday night at the Wal-Mart, at the Green Acres Mall on Sunrise Highway in Valley Stream, not far from the Queens border, where DVDs, flat-panel television sets and other entertainment items were discounted to attract crowds on the traditional first day of the Christmas shopping season.

Mr. Damour, 34, who was known to his friends as Jimbo, or Jdidread because of his dreadlocks, got his job at Wal-Mart through Labor Now, an agency for temporary workers. He had been trying to hold back a crush of shoppers pressing against the store’s sliding-glass double doors, the authorities said. Just before the store’s scheduled 5 a.m. opening, they said, the doors shattered under the weight of the crowd. Mr. Damour was thrown to the floor and trampled.

The Nassau County police were trying to determine what happened during the stampede, but said it was unclear if there would be any criminal charges. Michael Aronsen, a Police Department spokesman, said he did not expect the department to announce the results of its investigation this weekend. The department has been looking at videos from the store’s surveillance cameras and sifting through witnesses’ accounts. Another department spokesman said on Friday that it would be difficult to determine who was responsible for Mr. Damour’s death.

The Nassau County medical examiner has not announced a cause of death for Mr. Damour, who died just after 6 a.m. on Friday, about an hour after shoppers burst through the Wal-Mart doors. Four shoppers were injured in the stampede.

Hank Mullany, the senior vice president of Wal-Mart’s Northeast division, said in a statement that the company had hired extra security officers and installed barricades before the store opened, but “despite all of our precautions, this unfortunate event occurred.”

David Tovar, a company spokesman, declined to say how many extra officers had been added on Friday. Each store, he said, made its own security arrangements. Security at the mall is handled by a subcontractor, Securitas, which patrols the parking lot but not inside the Wal-Mart, which opened in 2003 and employs more than 300 workers.

On Saturday, two security guards were posted outside the Wal-Mart, which is next to a Petland Discounts store and a National Wholesale Liquidators outlet. Workers were repairing one side of the metal door frame that was damaged on Friday.

The Wal-Mart was busy on Saturday, with long lines at the registers. Many shoppers were aware of Mr. Damour’s death and said they were appalled that people did not stop to help him as he lay on the ground, and instead surged into the store seeking bargains.

“How do you stomp somebody like that?” asked Kenny Murphy, 30, of Lynbrook, N.Y., who was shopping with his wife, Lara. “It’s disgusting how people acted yesterday.”

Wal-Mart workers interviewed on Saturday said they had been told by their managers not to speak to reporters or give their names. But they said that on Friday morning, when the store was closed for a few hours after Mr. Damour’s death, dozens of workers gathered near the front door to pray. They were led by a woman who worked as a greeter.

“It was crazy,” said a worker in the electronics department who was in the store during the stampede. “The deals weren’t even that good.”

Some of the workers said they were still shaken by Mr. Damour’s death and added that they had mixed feelings about whether the store should have hired more security.

“How could you know something like that would happen?” said one worker, who added that the store was even busier this year than on Black Friday last year. “No one expected something like that.”

Green Acres opened in 1956 on the site of the former Curtiss Wright Airport. One of the first open-air shopping centers on Long Island, it had 1.2 million square feet of retail space and counted Gimbels, J. C. Penney and J. J. Newberry among its first tenants.

In 1968, the center was enclosed and later expanded to accommodate the growing number of shoppers from Queens, Brooklyn and Long Island.

But Green Acres, which is now owned by Vornado Realty Trust, has also seen its share of trouble. In the 1980s, the mall earned a reputation as the “car theft capital” of Long Island. In 1990, four moviegoers were shot — one fatally — when two groups of teenagers opened fire in a crowded theater that was showing “The Godfather, Part III.”

AmarilloRed
11-30-2008, 01:36 AM
Wal-Mart customarily keeps the Food Door open all night, but locks the GM Door at 11 PM. I don't have any idea why the doors wouldn't have already been open. It sounds like they made a mistake keeping both doors locked before 5 AM. I am surprised to hear that they had hired security officers, as Wal-Mart usually doesn't do that.

GAC
11-30-2008, 05:41 AM
Wal-Mart customarily keeps the Food Door open all night, but locks the GM Door at 11 PM. I don't have any idea why the doors wouldn't have already been open. It sounds like they made a mistake keeping both doors locked before 5 AM. I am surprised to hear that they had hired security officers, as Wal-Mart usually doesn't do that.

Because of the unique situation, it being Black Friday, they probably had all the doors locked until the opening time so that people couldn't "sneak" in through the Food Door.

They did hire extra security, and even had barricades there; but just how much security was enough (or not enough) to control a crowd like that?

I just hope stores like Walmart learn something from this, especially in larger metropolitan areas like this one, and take appropriate corrective action. You have to take responsibility to have a system in place to control crowds and keep some sense of order.

Also.... these stores "promote" this frenzy by not only drastically slashing prices on hot items, but also having very limited quantities on hand. When I read of previous situations where customers are diving over glass counters like Troy Polamalu trying to make a tackle, shattering glass and severely injuring themselves and the employee, then something needs to be down to create order.

It's like dropping a goldfish into a tank of piranhas.

GAC
11-30-2008, 05:53 AM
SoCal Toys 'R' Us Shooting Leaves Two Dead

PALM DESERT, Calif. — Two men pulled guns and shot each other to death in a crowded toy store Friday after the women with them erupted into a bloody brawl, witnesses said. Scared shoppers fled but no one else was hurt.

The violence erupted on Black Friday, the traditional post-Thanksgiving start of the holiday shopping surge, but authorities indicated the shooting wasn't related to a shopping frenzy.

Riverside County sheriff's Sgt. Dennis Gutierrez said the fight was not over a toy. He said handguns were found by the men's bodies, but he released little other information. He would not answer a question about whether the shooting was gang-related.

Witnesses Scott and Joan Barrick said they were checking out of the store when the fight began between two women, each with a man. The women were near the checkout area, but the Barricks did not think the women had purchases.

One woman suddenly started punching the other woman, who fought back as blood flowed from her nose, Scott Barrick, 41, said.

The man who was with the woman being punched pulled a gun halfway out of his pocket, then shoved it back in, he said.

"He pulled his gun right next to me. I turned to look for my wife, and she was already hiding," Barrick said.

"I was scared," said Joan Barrick, 40. "I didn't want to die today. I really didn't want to die today, and I think that's what we were all thinking."

The other man pulled a gun and pointed it at the first man but forgot to cock it, Scott Barrick said. The first man tried to run but was blocked by the line of people, then ran back toward the store's electronics section as the other man fired his gun, he said.

The first man reached a dead-end in electronics, turned around and ran toward an exit, pulling his gun and firing back, he said.

"He went up to the cash register, he went to put his hand on the thing and he just went phoomp," he said, indicating the man fell.

He said he did not see what happened to the other man.

Palm Desert Councilman Jim Ferguson said police told him two men with handguns shot and killed each other.

"I think the obvious question everyone has is who takes loaded weapons into a Toys "R" Us?" he said. "I doubt it was the casual holiday shopper."

Ray Turner, 20, said he was two aisles away when two women began shouting and screaming at each other and he had a clear view of the fight until a crowd clustered around them. Both women had children, he said.

"We thought it was just a fight and then someone yelled, 'He's got a gun. He's got a gun.' You really couldn't see nothing because there was a crowd," Turner said.

Rafael Gomez, 11, said he and his father had been in the store about 20 minutes before the shooting but were in a nearby Pizza Hut when they saw people pouring out of the store screaming.

"We just saw them running and crying. I was kind of scared," Rafael said. "We got lucky."

Toys "R" Us issued a statement expressing outrage over the violence.

"We are working closely with local law enforcement officials to determine the specific details of what occurred," the statement said. "Our understanding is that this act seems to have been the result of a personal dispute between the individuals involved. Therefore, it would be inaccurate to associate the events of today with Black Friday."

The Barricks and others remained at the scene long after the shooting because investigators would not allow cars to be taken from the parking lot until a crime-scene reconstruction was completed.

Palm Desert is a resort town about 120 miles east of Los Angeles.

TeamCasey
11-30-2008, 09:09 AM
Has anyone ever been in a riot situation? I was in the one at Jammin' on Main many years ago. I was waiting at a designated spot to meet my friends. All of a sudden a tear gas canister landed at my feet. I didn't even know what it was or what was going on. I was swept up in the crowd and I could literally lift my feet off the ground and still move with it. It was terrifying because you have no control whatsoever. The whole thing started at the front of a stage that I wasn't even near.

Walmart handled their opening poorly. These stores need to set up barricades so customers need be in a line. They also need additional security at the doors.

RBA
11-30-2008, 11:42 AM
From what I seen on news video of the scene, I didn't see much in the way of "barrier". I did see a sign that said, "Blitz Line" with an arrow pointing you to the line to get in the store. Blitz? An all out rush? Seems like wal-mart was promoting the mayhem.

According to the crowd reports, security was non-existent. According to Wal-Mart, they had additional security on hand? If I were to bet, this store chose to deploy their security in "loss-prevention". The additional "security" were probably manning the back room cameras looking for shop-lifters and undercover employees doing the same around the store. Property valued over life, by the crowd and the corporation.

westofyou
11-30-2008, 11:49 AM
Has anyone ever been in a riot situation?

Jethro Tull at the Riverfront Coliseum 8 months prior to the Who Concert tragedy, same situation as the Who concert, surging crowd, one door and screaming people... I fell down (I was 14 and weighed 100 pounds) someone stepped on me and this huge guy reached down and grabbed me and flung me forward to my feet and towards the door.

He's my all time hero.

Ltlabner
11-30-2008, 02:05 PM
I was in a bar in Calogne, Germany at 2:00am during Karnavale. Total mayhem. Never seen so many people pressed into one place. Like others described, you just moved with the crowd and tried to press through gaps where you could. The crowd went one way, you went with it.

Broken glass and spliled drinks were all over the floor. If you fell you were doomed.

I tried to go to the bathroom and it took 30 minutes of manuvering to go maybe 20 feet. After I was done I decided to get the hell out of there. Had there been a fire or other emergency many people would have died.

It was dumb to even go in there in the first place. Don't plan on making that mistake again.

Roy Tucker
11-30-2008, 04:27 PM
I don't know what this WalMart thing was like, but I'd gotten stuck in huge crowds for concerts at Riverfront Coliseum for McCartney/Wings and Led Zeppelin in the late 70's and it truly was a helpless feeling (I'm sure much like woy's experience).

I was with a group of 6 (3 guys, 3 gals) and we really had to look out for one another because of the crush. Lots of screaming and pushing and people getting mad and/or panicking. When I heard the news about the Who concert, it didn't surprise me.

OldRightHander
11-30-2008, 06:59 PM
I agree 100% ORH. Except I doubt these people are in Wal Mart - or any other store - getting something they desperately need.

I guess it's hard to show sarcasm in writing. I guess I should have said that they are looking for things they think they desperately need.

GAC
11-30-2008, 07:46 PM
A couple buddies and myself participated in Running of the Bulls in Spain. That was quite a life experience with mass crowds taunting bulls while they're running down the street. Mass hysteria as people tried to get out of the way. That is except for stupid Americans who were standing there with cameras trying to take pictures. I guess getting those Kodak moments was more important then one's life. Saw several people get mauled by bulls. One old man was killed.

It's funny what one can do when being chased by a bull. I actually did a Spiderman and crawled up some spouting on the side of a building because I had no other place to go but up. :lol:

Chip R
12-03-2008, 02:36 PM
And so it begins

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081203/ap_on_re_us/wal_mart_death

Cyclone792
12-03-2008, 03:11 PM
Has anyone ever been in a riot situation?

Actually when we were in New York this past summer for the Reds/Yanks series, there was one interesting subway experience as we headed to one of the games. With everyone heading to the Bronx, the subways get pretty packed and sometimes you have to wait for several trains before you're able to find some areas to hop on.

Well one group during one stop decided they weren't going to wait any longer and tried to bull rush their way on to the train. I could feel myself getting lifted up and being moved due to the sheer force of the crowd trying to push their way in. Despite yelling at the crowd telling them to knock it off since there wasn't any room, they kept pushing. It wasn't until voices got raised and the profanity started flying that the outside crowd realized that the train was beyond capacity.

durl
12-03-2008, 03:19 PM
Honestly, I have a hard time faulting Wal-Mart in this situation. At some point, the people in line have to take some responsibility for their behavior. These people weren't struggling to get away from a disaster of some sort; they were shopping...trying to save a few bucks.

In a common sense world, people act in such a way that they keep such things in perspective and respect those around them. Wal-Mart isn't responsible for people acting like starving animals fighting for a meal. Reasonable security is one thing; the behavior of the people in that line shouldn't be softened because there weren't police keeping shoppers from killing someone.

Yachtzee
12-03-2008, 03:20 PM
Jethro Tull at the Riverfront Coliseum 8 months prior to the Who Concert tragedy, same situation as the Who concert, surging crowd, one door and screaming people... I fell down (I was 14 and weighed 100 pounds) someone stepped on me and this huge guy reached down and grabbed me and flung me forward to my feet and towards the door.

He's my all time hero.

Something similar happened to me. I was working one of the Lollapalooza shows at Blossom Music Center. My shift ended, so I took off my staff shirt, but still had my ID around my neck, and went down to the pit to catch NIN. I was standing at the back of the pit, by some barriers when some kids broke through the barriers and started rushing the stage. One of the barriers hit me in the knee and I got trapped under it as people ran over me. A guy with a mohawk and a girl with pink hair each grabbed an arm and pulled me up, saving my life. I lost them in the sea of people, but I repay them by lending a hand whenever I see someone in trouble.

Chip R
12-03-2008, 03:46 PM
Honestly, I have a hard time faulting Wal-Mart in this situation. At some point, the people in line have to take some responsibility for their behavior. These people weren't struggling to get away from a disaster of some sort; they were shopping...trying to save a few bucks.

In a common sense world, people act in such a way that they keep such things in perspective and respect those around them. Wal-Mart isn't responsible for people acting like starving animals fighting for a meal. Reasonable security is one thing; the behavior of the people in that line shouldn't be softened because there weren't police keeping shoppers from killing someone.


Yes, those people need to take responsibility but there were thousands of stores all over the country - including other Wal Marts - that didn't have a similar incident. So either the people who shop that Wal Mart are bloodthirsty animals that can't control themselves, or that particular Wal Mart screwed up.

durl
12-03-2008, 04:02 PM
Yes, those people need to take responsibility but there were thousands of stores all over the country - including other Wal Marts - that didn't have a similar incident. So either the people who shop that Wal Mart are bloodthirsty animals that can't control themselves, or that particular Wal Mart screwed up.

I'll pick A.

Falls City Beer
12-03-2008, 04:40 PM
I'll pick A.

I'd say that is unlikely. It fits a neat narrative (personal responsibility of the MOB; that's new one), but I see no reason to believe that these people alone were doing something that millions of other Americans wouldn't do under the very same circumstances.

Maybe this particular store was located on a hellmouth that turned two thousand people into evil demons.

WMR
12-03-2008, 04:41 PM
I'd say that is unlikely. It fits a neat narrative (personal responsibility of the MOB; that's new one), but I see no reason to believe that these people alone were doing something that millions of other Americans wouldn't do under the very same circumstances.

Maybe this particular store was located on a hellmouth that turned two thousand people into evil demons.

Indian burial ground, perchance?

The store definitely bears the brunt of the liability for this incident.

bucksfan2
12-03-2008, 05:08 PM
Indian burial ground, perchance?

The store definitely bears the brunt of the liability for this incident.

Its a sad day when a store or a corporation is forced to take the responsibility for human beings acting like rabid dogs.

Falls City Beer
12-03-2008, 05:14 PM
Its a sad day when a store or a corporation is forced to take the responsibility for human beings acting like rabid dogs.

Why?

Again, other stores found ways to stem situations like this.

Chip R
12-03-2008, 05:22 PM
Maybe this particular store was located on a hellmouth that turned two thousand people into evil demons.


So you're saying that Buffy would have been more use than more security? ;)

bucksfan2
12-03-2008, 05:48 PM
Why?

Again, other stores found ways to stem situations like this.

So your saying that the shoppers behavior was acceptable?!?!? From the reports I have heard the shoppers unhinged the doors from the outside.

Ltlabner
12-03-2008, 05:52 PM
So your saying that the shoppers behavior was acceptable?!?!? From the reports I have heard the shoppers unhinged the doors from the outside.

The better question is did the shoppers behavior at the stores that didn't have problems differ from the shoppers at the stores that did?

Just because the crowds might have been big at both stores doesn't mean the shoppers at both stores acted the same way.

Just as because both stores had Wall-Mart on the marquee doesn't mean they both handled the crowd the same way. If you are going to question Wall-Mart (which is reasonable) you have to ask the same question of the shoppers.

Chip R
12-03-2008, 06:08 PM
The better question is did the shoppers behavior at the stores that didn't have problems differ from the shoppers at the stores that did?

Just because the crowds might have been big at both stores doesn't mean the shoppers at both stores acted the same way.

Just as just because both stores had Wall-Mart on the marquee doesn't mean they both handled the crowd the same way. If you are going to question Wall-Mart you have to ask the same question of the shoppers.


Both the store and the shoppers are at fault. This isn't an either/or answer. Some people in here have compared this incident to the Who concert here back in the 70s. Does that mean that Cincinnatians are horrible, horrible monsters or that it was a problem with the ticket setup and the security since nothing similar has happened there since? It doesn't excuse their actions but it's going to be a lot easier to find Wal Mart responsible than a mass of people - most of whom are unidentifiable. If they can identify someone who stomped that poor guy, prosecute the hell out of them. But that's going to be easier said than done.

durl
12-03-2008, 06:13 PM
So are we now to the point that we need uber-security in, say movie theaters, because everybody in there may go crazy because they didn't like the movie? Sure, I don't expect people to act like that at a movie theater, but I also don't expect them to trample a store employee in a rush to get a toy at a discount.

Chip R
12-03-2008, 06:15 PM
So are we now to the point that we need uber-security in, say movie theaters, because everybody in there may go crazy because they didn't like the movie? Sure, I don't expect people to act like that at a movie theater, but I also don't expect them to trample a store employee in a rush to get a toy at a discount.


How many of these incidents have we had at movie theaters?

Falls City Beer
12-03-2008, 06:16 PM
So your saying that the shoppers behavior was acceptable?!?!? From the reports I have heard the shoppers unhinged the doors from the outside.

I guess it's not acceptable, but it raises the the question: whose behavior?

I assume we're going back and forth on this because one person is making a larger moral or logistical argument (?) and the other is making a legal argument. As I've said, people should probably not covet material goods as much as they do, and in a collective, said people can become a deadly weapon, but individually, I fail to see the criminal action.

Falls City Beer
12-03-2008, 06:20 PM
So are we now to the point that we need uber-security in, say movie theaters, because everybody in there may go crazy because they didn't like the movie? Sure, I don't expect people to act like that at a movie theater, but I also don't expect them to trample a store employee in a rush to get a toy at a discount.

No, movie theaters don't swing open their doors and let 2000 people in all at once to get 1/2 price popcorn and soda plus free admission--while supplies last.

The Wal Mart people saw the crowd, they have a basic understanding of physics, they were in a position to do something about it. They didn't.

They created a very dangerous environment.

Falls City Beer
12-03-2008, 06:22 PM
Both the store and the shoppers are at fault. This isn't an either/or answer. Some people in here have compared this incident to the Who concert here back in the 70s. Does that mean that Cincinnatians are horrible, horrible monsters or that it was a problem with the ticket setup and the security since nothing similar has happened there since? It doesn't excuse their actions but it's going to be a lot easier to find Wal Mart responsible than a mass of people - most of whom are unidentifiable. If they can identify someone who stomped that poor guy, prosecute the hell out of them. But that's going to be easier said than done.

I think Wal-Mart is far more culpable, certainly in a legal sense.

durl
12-03-2008, 06:23 PM
How many of these incidents have we had at movie theaters?

That's secondary. If we're going to hold businesses accountable for the bizarre behavior of their patrons then the businesses will be forced to go to extreme measures to protect themselves from lawsuits.

Now if this were a late-night club in a rough part of town where drugs flow, it's safe to say that hightened security is necessary and violence is to be expected. But we're talking about shoppers looking for bargains. I don't think it's too much to expect people to act responsibly in such an environment.

Shopping is not typically considered a dangerous activity. Walmart was not encouraging people to participate in risky behavior. If someone is stuck in rush-hour traffic and decides to drive on the sidewalk, injuring pedestrians, we don't sue the maker of the stop light because they promoted a mob mentality.

Falls City Beer
12-03-2008, 06:31 PM
Shopping is not typically considered a dangerous activity. Walmart was not encouraging people to participate in risky behavior. If someone is stuck in rush-hour traffic and decides to drive on the sidewalk, injuring pedestrians, we don't sue the maker of the stop light because they promoted a mob mentality.

The comparison is flawed for numerous reasons, but the biggest is that the guy driving on the sidewalk is breaking a clear law.

LoganBuck
12-03-2008, 10:36 PM
How many of these incidents have we had at movie theaters?

Chip google "yelling fire in a movie theater"

durl
12-04-2008, 10:11 AM
The comparison is flawed for numerous reasons, but the biggest is that the guy driving on the sidewalk is breaking a clear law.

So is trampling someone to death but the law didn't stop these people from stampeding through a door. These people thought a good bargain was more important than someone standing in their way.

I'm just having a difficult time accepting the premise that stores that promote bargain shopping are creating a mob mentality that encourages violence. Again, we're not talking about people fighting for survival. We're talking about shoppers with lots of money to spend, and trying to save a few bucks. The ultimate responsibility lies with people that make decisions about how to behave in public settings.

Chip R
12-04-2008, 10:33 AM
Chip google "yelling fire in a movie theater"


Nice try but that's really not the same thing. More towards your analogy, let's say the next Lord of the Rings or Star Wars movie opens. We know people sit in line for days, weeks, months in order to either buy tickets or wait for the movie to play. When they finally let them in, how many times have we heard of ushers being trampled by the people standing in line?

No one has answered the question I have asked yet. Why was this store the only store out of all the other Wal Marts, Targets, K-Marts, Best Buys, etc. that had this problem? Bad luck? Are they above a hellmouth, as FCB said? Is that subset of the population prone to this sort of thing? Were they crackheads? Is there something in the water? Why this store and not any others?

Falls City Beer
12-04-2008, 03:22 PM
I'm just having a difficult time accepting the premise that stores that promote bargain shopping are creating a mob mentality that encourages violence. Again, we're not talking about people fighting for survival. We're talking about shoppers with lots of money to spend, and trying to save a few bucks. The ultimate responsibility lies with people that make decisions about how to behave in public settings.

But WHO is responsible? No one can answer the question. A crime has to have a perpetrator. I'd hate to spend my life in prison because someone behind me pushed me into a guy and I caused that man to fall down and get trampled. I wanted to go slow, but the guy behind me wouldn't let me. Should I go to prison? Should the guy behind me or the guy behind him? Who is the criminal?

The guy who drives on the sidewalk is an individual consciously or negligently breaking the law.

AmarilloRed
12-05-2008, 02:59 AM
There's enough blame to go around. This store had it's doors locked before 5 A.M., so it clearly was not a 24 hour store like the one one I work at. At some point you can point the finger at the store management; a well run store does not see these things happen. The customers also should take some responsibility for what happened; there are good deals on Black Friday but nothing worth losing your life over.

Ltlabner
12-05-2008, 07:14 AM
But WHO is responsible? No one can answer the question. A crime has to have a perpetrator. I'd hate to spend my life in prison because someone behind me pushed me into a guy and I caused that man to fall down and get trampled.

You just answered your own question. If someone purposly knocked someone down, pushed someone down, kicked someone they are clearly responsible.

The chance of them being identified, charged and convicted are slim and none, and slim has already left town. I get that part of your argument. You'll never be able to positivley say that guy right there pushed me and that's the only reason I stepped on the guy on the ground.

What I don't get is your assertion that once you get a large enough crowd of people everybody is automatically immune from prosecution and no longer responsible for their actions.

Sure, there's people in that group who had no intentions of pushing, shoving or kicking. Many/most were likely pushed forward in the swell and had little/no ablity to avoid pushing back or bumping into other people. But there was someone, or several someones acting like jackasses inside that mob and you know it. That's kindof why mobs develop. There's almost always a couple of instigators who get things going or keep them going.

You want us to believe that this was a group of well behaved people who just got a little anxious when the doors opened and if they wern't under the spell of that big, mean, corporate Wall-Mart they would just orderly moved into the store albiet at a faster pace.

I know you abhor assigning responsibility to people for their actions, but being inside a large group of people doesn't give you immunitiy to act any way you please.

Falls City Beer
12-05-2008, 11:58 AM
You just answered your own question. If someone purposly knocked someone down, pushed someone down, kicked someone they are clearly responsible.

The chance of them being identified, charged and convicted are slim and none, and slim has already left town. I get that part of your argument. You'll never be able to positivley say that guy right there pushed me and that's the only reason I stepped on the guy on the ground.

What I don't get is your assertion that once you get a large enough crowd of people everybody is automatically immune from prosecution and no longer responsible for their actions.

Sure, there's people in that group who had no intentions of pushing, shoving or kicking. Many/most were likely pushed forward in the swell and had little/no ablity to avoid pushing back or bumping into other people. But there was someone, or several someones acting like jackasses inside that mob and you know it. That's kindof why mobs develop. There's almost always a couple of instigators who get things going or keep them going.

You want us to believe that this was a group of well behaved people who just got a little anxious when the doors opened and if they wern't under the spell of that big, mean, corporate Wall-Mart they would just orderly moved into the store albiet at a faster pace.

I know you abhor assigning responsibility to people for their actions, but being inside a large group of people doesn't give you immunitiy to act any way you please.


You're doing the opposite of getting it here. This has nothing to do with some perceived slight toward Wal-Mart. Seriously. The same would go for Saks Fifth Avenue, Target, or Taco Bell--or your next door neighbor, inviting friends over to climb inside his work shed to claim one of five brand new Playstation 3's for free.

The store is liable for the environment it allows on its premises.

What's ironic is that *I'm* the one arguing for personal responsibility--the manager of this store is guilty; he ignored the environment present on his premises--he said, "My few workers can handle the rush of 2000 people." Others are arguing for something that doesn't really exist: guilty parties amid chaos. Looking to punish shoppers for doing what shoppers do doesn't seem particularly productive. Now if an individual shopper were to get inside the store and punch or knife another shopper, then we've got a very different circumstance. We have an act of volition.

bucksfan2
12-05-2008, 12:52 PM
You're doing the opposite of getting it here. This has nothing to do with some perceived slight toward Wal-Mart. Seriously. The same would go for Saks Fifth Avenue, Target, or Taco Bell--or your next door neighbor, inviting friends over to climb inside his work shed to claim one of five brand new Playstation 3's for free.

The store is liable for the environment it allows on its premises.

What's ironic is that *I'm* the one arguing for personal responsibility--the manager of this store is guilty; he ignored the environment present on his premises--he said, "My few workers can handle the rush of 2000 people." Others are arguing for something that doesn't really exist: guilty parties amid chaos. Looking to punish shoppers for doing what shoppers do doesn't seem particularly productive. Now if an individual shopper were to get inside the store and punch or knife another shopper, then we've got a very different circumstance. We have an act of volition.

I take issue with two things:

1. Shoppers doing what shoppers do? Shoppers removing door hinges from the outside is shoppers doing what shoppers do?

2. The store was locked. The people weren't allowed in until a certain time. The shoppers tried to enter the store before that allowed time. How in Walmart supposed to prepare for that?

durl
12-05-2008, 01:01 PM
The store is liable for the environment it allows on its premises.

The environment created was "saving money." Hardly a reason to start pushing a crowd of people in front of a door.


Looking to punish shoppers for doing what shoppers do doesn't seem particularly productive.

"Shoppers" shop. They don't riot. Whacked out people riot over saving a few bucks.


Now if an individual shopper were to get inside the store and punch or knife another shopper, then we've got a very different circumstance. We have an act of volition.

This is where I have great difficulty. We treat the "mob" as a non-entity. It's not personal, therefore it cannot be held accountable or judged. But people make up the mob and people can and should be held responsible for the decisions they make. Since people want "someone" accountable, they go after the company, also an entity, but this one can be identified and sued for cash.

Walmart gave people an opportunity to shop and save money. It's the people that went too far.

Falls City Beer
12-05-2008, 01:19 PM
The environment created was "saving money." Hardly a reason to start pushing a crowd of people in front of a door.



"Shoppers" shop. They don't riot. Whacked out people riot over saving a few bucks.



This is where I have great difficulty. We treat the "mob" as a non-entity. It's not personal, therefore it cannot be held accountable or judged. But people make up the mob and people can and should be held responsible for the decisions they make. Since people want "someone" accountable, they go after the company, also an entity, but this one can be identified and sued for cash.

Walmart gave people an opportunity to shop and save money. It's the people that went too far.

The mob is not a non-entity. It's a non-individual. Again, where were the criminal charges in The Who concert incident? There were none. The individual is not liable in a circumstance like that. Because we're not talking about individual culpability.

Wal Mart created a dangerous environment for its employees. Plain and simple. They had other methods to make it a non-dangerous environment for its employees. Check in with the managers of the other 6 trillion Wal-Mart stores where no one got hurt despite huge pushing crowds. I'm sure they have tons of advice.

As more info. comes in, it sounds like the police might have been negligent as well. Does that debunk this idiotic notion that this is some crusade against poor lil Wal-Mart? The police have a union, you know. But it sounds like they might have been negligent anyway! Shock! Stunner!!

Ltlabner
12-05-2008, 01:51 PM
What's ironic is that *I'm* the one arguing for personal responsibility--the manager of this store is guilty; he ignored the environment present on his premises--he said, "My few workers can handle the rush of 2000 people." Others are arguing for something that doesn't really exist: guilty parties amid chaos. Looking to punish shoppers for doing what shoppers do doesn't seem particularly productive. Now if an individual shopper were to get inside the store and punch or knife another shopper, then we've got a very different circumstance. We have an act of volition.

What shoppers do? So it's totally normal for people to stampede into a store to save a few bucks? Funny, I go to the grocierey with the wife when things are on sale and have never witnessed a frenzied mob at the deli counter.

I'd argue that, stomping on people and bum rushing a store is not, in fact, "what shoppers do".

And I agree the store manager/corporation is liable, and have said so several times. I'm in no way absolving them of any responsiblity.

But then again, I'm not absolving the people of their responsiblity in the matter either. The notion that they are blameless and without fault is flatly silly.

Falls City Beer
12-05-2008, 02:01 PM
What shoppers do? So it's totally normal for people to stampede into a store to save a few bucks?


Yeah. It's been happening in this country for years and years. Every single Black Friday in the span of my memory. That more haven't been killed is a combination of smart planning, security, crowd control, and luck.

Yachtzee
12-05-2008, 02:10 PM
What shoppers do? So it's totally normal for people to stampede into a store to save a few bucks? Funny, I go to the grocierey with the wife when things are on sale and have never witnessed a frenzied mob at the deli counter.

I'd argue that, stomping on people and bum rushing a store is not, in fact, "what shoppers do".

And I agree the store manager/corporation is liable, and have said so several times. I'm in no way absolving them of any responsiblity.

But then again, I'm not absolving the people of their responsiblity in the matter either. The notion that they are blameless and without fault is flatly silly.

Of course, your grocery store doesn't advertise a 5 am store opening with special "DOORBUSTER!" deals in "extremely limited supply." Retail stores encourage the mobbing and camping out and the shopping frenzy because it makes them look like selling lots of stuff. People see that and perceive Walmart as having great deals and will come down to do their christmas shopping. Often, the items they may be looking for are sold out, but they'll stay to do some of their other shopping.

Personally, I have no problem if stores want to do business this way, but if they're going to advertise these sales with words like "Doorbusters" and "extremely limited supply," they had better put on enough security to ensure the crowds don't take the notion of "doorbusting" literally.

Ltlabner
12-05-2008, 02:10 PM
Yeah. It's been happening in this country for years and years. Every single Black Friday in the span of my memory. That more haven't been killed is a combination of smart planning, security, crowd control, and luck.

You are confusing a large crowd with a stampede.

You were making the case that it's totally normal and expected for shoppers to run amok and kill people and that somehow the only folks with any shred of control and responsibility is the store.

I don't know anybody that goes to the mall expecting to be mowed down like the running of the bulls. Maybe Philly is just a crappy place where that sort of behavor is expected and tollerated?

At somepoint, people should be expected not to act like jackasses, especially when it results in the death of another human.

Ltlabner
12-05-2008, 02:11 PM
Personally, I have no problem if stores want to do business this way, but if they're going to advertise these sales with words like "Doorbusters" and "extremely limited supply," they had better put on enough security to ensure the crowds don't take the notion of "doorbusting" literally.

I agree 100% and haven't argued otherwise.

My only beef is this fable that every last person in the crowd was pure as the wind-driven snow and that somehow a tractor beam from the electronics department sucked them into the store.

Chip R
05-06-2009, 01:31 PM
Wal Mart's going to pay $2M in order to avoid criminal charges.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090506/ap_on_bi_ge/us_wal_mart_death


Wal-Mart pays $2M to avoid charges in death probe

By FRANK ELTMAN, Associated Press Writer Frank Eltman

MINEOLA, N.Y. – Wal-Mart agreed Wednesday to pay nearly $2 million and improve safety at its 92 New York stores as part of a deal with prosecutors that avoids criminal charges in the trampling death of a temporary worker.

Nassau County District Attorney Kathleen Rice, who began a criminal investigation shortly after last November's customer stampede at Wal-Mart's Valley Stream store, said that if she had brought criminal charges against the retailer for negligence in the worker's death, the company would have been subject to only a $10,000 fine if convicted.

Instead, she said, the company has agreed to implement an improved crowd-management plan for post-Thanksgiving Day sales, set up a $400,000 victims' compensation and remuneration fund, and give a $1.5 million grant to Nassau County social services programs and nonprofit groups.

The agreement included no admission of guilt by Wal-Mart.

"Rather than bringing the world's largest retailer to court and imposing a small fine against them, I felt it was important to require significant safety changes that will affect the whole state," Rice said. "Our goal is for the protocols that are set up to be the gold standard for crowd management in this industry."

Wal-Mart vice president Hank Mullany said, "The crowd management plan we are announcing today was developed by a team of experts whose experience includes NFL Super Bowls, Olympic games, concerts and national political conventions."

Jdimytai (Jimmy-tree) Damour, a temporary employee, had been on the job for about a week and had no training in security or crowd control when a crowd estimated at 2,000 broke down the Valley Stream store's doors, trapping him in a vestibule.

Built like an NFL linebacker at 6-foot-5 and 270 pounds, the 34-year-old Queens man died of asphyxiation. Eleven others, including a pregnant woman, were injured.

Earlier this year, Damour's family announced plans to sue the county, retailer and others. The family's attorney did not immediately comment on Wednesday's announcement.

Any victims who accept payment from the Wal-Mart compensation fund will be required to waive their right to a separate civil suit against Wal-Mart, Rice said. Also, she said, Wal-Mart has agreed to advertise the compensation fund in the daily and weekly newspapers that cover Valley Stream and its surrounding neighborhoods.

"Facilitating the compensation is one of the main goals of this settlement," she said.

The company also agreed to an independent review of its procedures for post-Thanksgiving Day sales. The prosecutor said her office will oversee compliance.

"We are hoping that this safety plan becomes the nationally recognized model for crowd management among all retailers and becomes an industrywide best practice," she said.

The community grant money includes $1.2 million for Nassau County's Youth Board, which helps nonprofit agencies provide career development, employment training and other opportunities. The retailer also will donate $300,000 to the United Way of Long Island's Youth Build Program in Nassau County. The deal also calls for Wal-Mart to hire 50high school students annually to work in its five stores in the county.