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View Full Version : Reds SS...Phillips???



bleedsred
11-29-2008, 11:48 AM
Why can't the Reds just move Phillips to SS and bring in a 2B of which there is a ton in FA....I don't get why everyone seems to want the Reds to part with pitching when we already have a Gold Glove caliber SS on the team as it is.......

SarasotaFan
11-29-2008, 12:19 PM
He's been at 2B for a few years now and has established himself there. It's different moving to the 6-hole - different range, longer throw, etc. Sure he's probably athletic enough to handle the change over time, but no sense it making that move right now.

redsfandan
11-29-2008, 12:20 PM
- they still can, and may, move phillips to ss
- a ton of 2b available? outside of hudson who else is a definite starter? alot of teams will want him.
- with the financial limits we have we may not pick up a ss this offseason and may wait til summer of '09 or next offseason for the next batch of FA's.
- of course walt will explore trades and i know some would like a trade for an established ss. i'd prefer a ss prospect and to not deal a pitcher unless it's maloney.

Orodle
11-29-2008, 12:37 PM
I keep saying this....there is a reason Phillips was moved from SS to 2B. SS and 2B are completely different positions at the major league level. At SS he would be an average defender at best...at 2B he has the ability to take hits away.

Stephenk29
11-29-2008, 12:49 PM
I keep saying this....there is a reason Phillips was moved from SS to 2B. SS and 2B are completely different positions at the major league level. At SS he would be an average defender at best...at 2B he has the ability to take hits away.

ditto. There is absolutely no reason to move him. Why would you move a superior player at one position so he can be a mediocre player at another? It simply does not make sense. They are two totally different positions.

eichstadtreds
11-29-2008, 01:07 PM
ditto. There is absolutely no reason to move him. Why would you move a superior player at one position so he can be a mediocre player at another? It simply does not make sense. They are two totally different positions.
A superior player? Defensively yes but offensively no. At SS he would be way more valuable. A average SS overall is worth more than an average second baseman. Especially when Keppinger isa your other viable option at SS at this time.

fadetoblack2880
11-29-2008, 01:12 PM
Gonzalez is the SS. As long as he's healthy, he'll be the SS. He's making too much $$ to sit.

redsfandan
11-29-2008, 01:18 PM
just to make it clear, i prefer phillips stays at 2nd but what we think doesn't matter. it's what the reds/walt thinks that matters. supply and demand matters a little too. if, for some reason, the reds decide they NEED to acquire someone and the only ss available are average at best or too expensive and there's a solid 2nd baseman available.... well never say never. my bet is they'll wait til feb to see how agon is and long term they'll look for a ss prospect, a trade in june/july, or a FA next year.

Griffey012
11-29-2008, 01:21 PM
A superior player? Defensively yes but offensively no. At SS he would be way more valuable. A average SS overall is worth more than an average second baseman. Especially when Keppinger isa your other viable option at SS at this time.

Phillips is not a superior offensive 2nd basemen? I know he regressed a bit last year offensively, but I think it is fair to place some of that on the pressure of batting in the 4 hole where he does not belong. He is still in the top 10 offensively of major league 2nd basemen, and if he goes back to his 07' he could crack the top 5. He also won the gold glove, a gold glove 2nd basemen who is at least average offensively is a darn good 2nd baseman to have. It is way better than a SS who is average offensively and defensively.

roby
11-29-2008, 02:03 PM
Phillips is not a superior offensive 2nd basemen? I know he regressed a bit last year offensively, but I think it is fair to place some of that on the pressure of batting in the 4 hole where he does not belong. He is still in the top 10 offensively of major league 2nd basemen, and if he goes back to his 07' he could crack the top 5. He also won the gold glove, a gold glove 2nd basemen who is at least average offensively is a darn good 2nd baseman to have. It is way better than a SS who is average offensively and defensively.

I agree Griff. Anyone who dogs Phillips loses all credibility as far as I am concerned. I do NOT understand all the negativity towards him.

eichstadtreds
11-29-2008, 02:35 PM
I agree Griff. Anyone who dogs Phillips loses all credibility as far as I am concerned. I do NOT understand all the negativity towards him.

And I do not understand all the people who think he is the greatest since joe Morgan. I don't have the stats and I am too lazy too look them up but he was very average offensively. If he played all his games outside GAB he wouldn't hit near 30 hrs. His OBP wasn't nothing to write home about. If you bat him sixth and put him at SS he is valuable. If you bat him fourth and put him at second he as a defensive star but offensively he is a liability.

eichstadtreds
11-29-2008, 02:36 PM
Phillips is not a superior offensive 2nd basemen? I know he regressed a bit last year offensively, but I think it is fair to place some of that on the pressure of batting in the 4 hole where he does not belong. He is still in the top 10 offensively of major league 2nd basemen, and if he goes back to his 07' he could crack the top 5. He also won the gold glove, a gold glove 2nd basemen who is at least average offensively is a darn good 2nd baseman to have. It is way better than a SS who is average offensively and defensively.

I agree with what you said but I disagree he would only be average defensively at SS. That is where we differ and why I think he needs to be moved to up his value as a player.

bleedsred
11-29-2008, 03:03 PM
If Gonzo is healthy then he has to play, however if the Reds have to make a move I would like to see them bring back Felipe Lopez to find out if his late season surge was the real deal if the money was the right fit for the Reds.

TC81190
11-29-2008, 03:11 PM
If Gonzo is healthy then he has to play, however if the Reds have to make a move I would like to see them bring back Felipe Lopez to find out if his late season surge was the real deal if the money was the right fit for the Reds.
Maybe as a bench bat and occasional 2B caddy, but Lopez should never start at SS.

Lockdwn11
11-29-2008, 04:26 PM
And I do not understand all the people who think he is the greatest since joe Morgan. I don't have the stats and I am too lazy too look them up but he was very average offensively. If he played all his games outside GAB he wouldn't hit near 30 hrs. His OBP wasn't nothing to write home about. If you bat him sixth and put him at SS he is valuable. If you bat him fourth and put him at second he as a defensive star but offensively he is a liability.

Funny you should say that because IMO Phillips is the best 2nd baseman the REDS have had since Joe morgan. So I guess I am one of those people.If he played all his games outside the GAB? He doesn't and that just isn't a very good argument, Thats like saying if he played all his games there he would hit 60. If Utley didn't play half his games in philly he wouldn't hit as many HRs so whats your point with this?

Hondo
11-29-2008, 04:55 PM
Maybe we should try Bruce at 3rd... ya know... just to move people around and see what happens...

Lockdwn11
11-29-2008, 05:00 PM
Maybe we should try Bruce at 3rd... ya know... just to move people around and see what happens...

Funny you should say that because I haven't seen this posted but I think it would be a good idea to try Votto at 3rd. His off the bag defense at 1st is very good and he was a catcher at one time so his arm should play at 3rd when Yonder Alonso is ready

Orodle
11-29-2008, 05:02 PM
If Gonzo is healthy then he has to play, however if the Reds have to make a move I would like to see them bring back Felipe Lopez to find out if his late season surge was the real deal if the money was the right fit for the Reds.


I hope you dont mean to bring back Felipe to play SS. I wouldnt mind him as a utility player at SS,2B, LF but he should never be an everyday SS again. Unless you like to watch someone who cant field routine grounders.

Orodle
11-29-2008, 05:06 PM
Funny you should say that because I haven't seen this posted but I think it would be a good idea to try Votto at 3rd. His off the bag defense at 1st is very good and he was a catcher at one time so his arm should play at 3rd when Yonder Alonso is ready

That would not end well. The main skill needed at the left side of the infield is footwork...not footwork to get to balls but footwork to put yourself in position to make a quick and hard throw to 1B. I'd say that would be next to impossible for Votto to do at the major league level as he has had none of this while at pro ball.

If you throw right handed and are in the infield playing 1B...there is a reason you've been playing 1B.

and please tell me you knew Hondo was kidding about Bruce to 3B.

Griffey012
11-29-2008, 05:09 PM
I agree with what you said but I disagree he would only be average defensively at SS. That is where we differ and why I think he needs to be moved to up his value as a player.

That is true, he may be above average defensively at SS but the way I see it how he would do defensively as SS is something of the unknown. And we know he is a gold glover at 2B. So if a scenario would come up and we were able to increase our overall defense and offense as SS and 2B by moving Phillips to SS then I am all for it. But there is no reason to move him just because.

Hondo
11-29-2008, 05:09 PM
That would not end well. The main skill needed at the left side of the infield is footwork...not footwork to get to balls but footwork to put yourself in position to make a quick and hard throw to 1B. I'd say that would be next to impossible for Votto to do at the major league level as he has had none of this while at pro ball.

If you throw right handed and are in the infield playing 1B...there is a reason you've been playing 1B.

and please tell me you knew Hondo was kidding about Bruce to 3B.

Good Point...

Hopfully they will find a Great Defensive Centerfielder and Move Votto to Left and he can be above average at best with Yonder manning 1st assuming Yonder makes the big leagues and is successful

Lockdwn11
11-29-2008, 05:33 PM
That would not end well. The main skill needed at the left side of the infield is footwork...not footwork to get to balls but footwork to put yourself in position to make a quick and hard throw to 1B. I'd say that would be next to impossible for Votto to do at the major league level as he has had none of this while at pro ball.

If you throw right handed and are in the infield playing 1B...there is a reason you've been playing 1B.

and please tell me you knew Hondo was kidding about Bruce to 3B.

Your are right and the reason he is playing 1st is because we all heard from the Reds that his defense was sub-par well now we all know that isn't the case. I'm not saying this should happen or will but it makes as much sense to me as moving your Gold Glove 2nd baseman to SS.

eichstadtreds
11-29-2008, 06:00 PM
That is true, he may be above average defensively at SS but the way I see it how he would do defensively as SS is something of the unknown. And we know he is a gold glover at 2B. So if a scenario would come up and we were able to increase our overall defense and offense as SS and 2B by moving Phillips to SS then I am all for it. But there is no reason to move him just because.

I don't think you should move him just because. You should move him because we have more viable options at second then we do at SS. Gonzo hasn't been healthy for over a year, and Keppinger isn't a everyday SS. If we can go out outside and viable SS, I am all for it bet that list as far as I know is pretty short, but I may be wrong.

eichstadtreds
11-29-2008, 06:05 PM
Funny you should say that because IMO Phillips is the best 2nd baseman the REDS have had since Joe morgan. So I guess I am one of those people.If he played all his games outside the GAB? He doesn't and that just isn't a very good argument, Thats like saying if he played all his games there he would hit 60. If Utley didn't play half his games in philly he wouldn't hit as many HRs so whats your point with this?

He probably would hit 60 if he played all his games. But the ballpark you play in is a factor offensively and suggesting otherwise doesn't make any sense. I would take Boone over Phillips and Reese defensively as well.

ChatterRed
11-29-2008, 06:16 PM
Didn't BP win the golden glove?

Hondo
11-29-2008, 06:17 PM
Yeah, why would you move him... I agree with the poster earlier who said he takes away hits at 2nd whereas at SS he might be Good, but not Elite at SS... he is an Elite 2B and just had an off offensive year... He should be back to 30/30 form in 2009, especailly if this team gets a legit lead off hitter and a Big Right handed Bat in the Middle of the Lineup...

roby
11-29-2008, 07:18 PM
And I do not understand all the people who think he is the greatest since joe Morgan. I don't have the stats and I am too lazy too look them up but he was very average offensively. If he played all his games outside GAB he wouldn't hit near 30 hrs. His OBP wasn't nothing to write home about. If you bat him sixth and put him at SS he is valuable. If you bat him fourth and put him at second he as a defensive star but offensively he is a liability.

Batting Phillips 4th and then complaining about his poor offense is like putting Ozzie Smith behind the plate to catch and then saying he can't play defense! Brandon CAN hit just fine, he isn't a clean-up hitter, though. As far as the Reds go, Phillips [U]is[U] the greatest since Joe Morgan.

eichstadtreds
11-29-2008, 07:22 PM
Batting Phillips 4th and then complaining about his poor offense is like putting Ozzie Smith behind the plate to catch and then saying he can't play defense! Brandon CAN hit just fine, he isn't a clean-up hitter, though. As far as the Reds go, Phillips [U]is[U] the greatest since Joe Morgan.

I agree with you about him not being a 4 hole hitter. But that shouldn't change his approach. His numbers are his numbers and they weren't great. we have differing opinions on the best since Morgan.

markymark69
11-29-2008, 09:09 PM
ditto. There is absolutely no reason to move him. Why would you move a superior player at one position so he can be a mediocre player at another? It simply does not make sense. They are two totally different positions.

I agree with you. I don't understand why alot of people want Phillips moved to shortstop. Is it because he's played there before? That's not a valid reason. He's a Gold Glove player at second base, why mess with him. Maybe he would be at shortstop, but he already is at second. Leave him alone.
Period. End of Story.

Griffey012
11-29-2008, 09:46 PM
I don't think you should move him just because. You should move him because we have more viable options at second then we do at SS. Gonzo hasn't been healthy for over a year, and Keppinger isn't a everyday SS. If we can go out outside and viable SS, I am all for it bet that list as far as I know is pretty short, but I may be wrong.

I think for us to really upgrade our middle infield play overall it has to be from somewhere out of the system which would involve getting a guy like Furcal or some really slick fielding SS. If not Hopefully AGon can stay healthy for a majority of the year while we wait for Valaika or someone from the minors is ready to man SS. But if Phillips were to move, how about someone like Ray Durham on a 1 year deal at 2B.

eichstadtreds
11-29-2008, 09:53 PM
I think for us to really upgrade our middle infield play overall it has to be from somewhere out of the system which would involve getting a guy like Furcal or some really slick fielding SS. If not Hopefully AGon can stay healthy for a majority of the year while we wait for Valaika or someone from the minors is ready to man SS. But if Phillips were to move, how about someone like Ray Durham on a 1 year deal at 2B.

I would love to Get Furcal or someone like that. I wouldn't hate a one year deal for someone like Durham. Just as a stop Gap. I would prefer to get a Furcal and leave Phillips where he is, but out of all the options in the Reds system Phillips is the best too play short.

Hondo
11-29-2008, 09:57 PM
I would love to Get Furcal or someone like that. I wouldn't hate a one year deal for someone like Durham. Just as a stop Gap. I would prefer to get a Furcal and leave Phillips where he is, but out of all the options in the Reds system Phillips is the best too play short.

So you have a below average Short Stop and an ELITE 2B...

You want to move your elite 2B to SS to have an above average SS and then sign Ray Durham to be a below average 2B????

That doesn't make much sense...

:rolleyes:

eichstadtreds
11-29-2008, 10:30 PM
So you have a below average Short Stop and an ELITE 2B...

You want to move your elite 2B to SS to have an above average SS and then sign Ray Durham to be a below average 2B????

That doesn't make much sense...

:rolleyes:

I did say someone Like Durham but second base is not nearly as important defensively as SS. Durham is not a bad hitter. Brandon Phillips is no where near a elite player. A .312 OBP and a .442 slg last year and a .331 OBP and .485 slugging the year before is no where near elite.

Lockdwn11
11-29-2008, 10:35 PM
He probably would hit 60 if he played all his games. But the ballpark you play in is a factor offensively and suggesting otherwise doesn't make any sense. I would take Boone over Phillips and Reese defensively as well.

You cann't take away his at-bats at the GAB so whats your point. Utley plays half his games in a hitters park the same as Phillips is he not the best hitting 2nd baseman in the game?

redsfandan
11-30-2008, 04:35 AM
i'll be happy when the question mark at short is solved just so i can see this debate stop.

fadetoblack2880
11-30-2008, 11:55 AM
bring back womack!

Hondo
11-30-2008, 02:19 PM
bring back womack!

Dare to SPEAK with that Tounge! Blasphemy!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :thumbdown

I(heart)Freel
12-02-2008, 02:33 PM
I'd love to hear a thought out argument that details why BPhil would be average at short.

It's his athleticism that makes him special at second. Is he only athletic on the right side of the infield? Doesn't that transfer over? Hmm.

I'm not for moving him just to move him. But the whole point of this thread was: if Walt sees more options at 2B, shouldn't he explore those options knowing he *could* move BPhil over to short?

If it takes half the prospects to, for instance, get a Brian Roberts than it does to get Renteria, shouldnt he consider that? Or if it takes half the money to sign Hudson than it would to sign Furcal, isn't he being a smart GM to know he has that flexibility?

redsfandan
12-03-2008, 08:36 AM
my peference is to keep bp at 2nd but ...

I'd love to hear a thought out argument that details why BPhil would be average at short.

It's his athleticism that makes him special at second. Is he only athletic on the right side of the infield? Doesn't that transfer over? Hmm.

I'm not for moving him just to move him. But the whole point of this thread was: if Walt sees more options at 2B, shouldn't he explore those options knowing he *could* move BPhil over to short?

... if it takes half the money to sign Hudson than it would to sign Furcal, isn't he being a smart GM to know he has that flexibility?

IF he is healthy i expect agon to be the ss in '09. bp has only played ss in 19 innings in the majors. if agon misses any time i'd rather see bp at ss and kepp at 2nd than the other way around. bp wouldn't be any worse than kepp at ss, kepp is better at 2nd anyway, and we'd be able to know for sure if bp could handle a switch.

TDHND
12-03-2008, 12:08 PM
going into last season i wanted the move,but now look at it like why move a gold glove 2nd baseman to another position.

I(heart)Freel
12-03-2008, 01:20 PM
going into last season i wanted the move,but now look at it like why move a gold glove 2nd baseman to another position.

Why did the Big Red Machine move Pete Rose around? For flexibility and maximization of talent!

Again, if there is no FA or trade, then you probably stick with BPhil at 2B. But as a GM you simply have to know you *could* do that when looking at available talent out there. Why limit your options?

Count me among the skeptical when it comes to AGon ever getting back to where he was when the Reds signed him. I'm penciling him as an a more expensive Juan Castro for this year.

Hondo
12-03-2008, 01:23 PM
Why did the Big Red Machine move Pete Rose around? For flexibility and maximization of talent!

Again, if there is no FA or trade, then you probably stick with BPhil at 2B. But as a GM you simply have to know you *could* do that when looking at available talent out there. Why limit your options?

Count me among the skeptical when it comes to AGon ever getting back to where he was when the Reds signed him. I'm penciling him as an a more expensive Juan Castro for this year.

This ain't No Big Red Machine bud...

I(heart)Freel
12-03-2008, 01:28 PM
This ain't No Big Red Machine bud...

Good point. Why emulate success?

Hondo
12-03-2008, 01:31 PM
Good point. Why emulate success?

I think you emulate success point is pointless...

There were a lot of Great Players on that team that made those position switches Possible...

2 different Teams... It's like totally different circumstances.

texasdave
12-03-2008, 02:09 PM
I think your overstating of the obvious that this team is no Big Red Machine is pointless.

I did not read anyone saying that it was. Or that switching Phillips and Keppinger would make it so.

The poster simply stated that even a team as talented as the Big Red Machine switched players around to become better.

It seems to me that is a very good idea for any team. Not simply teams with talent.

Hondo
12-03-2008, 03:14 PM
I think your overstating of the obvious that this team is no Big Red Machine is pointless.

I did not read anyone saying that it was. Or that switching Phillips and Keppinger would make it so.

The poster simply stated that even a team as talented as the Big Red Machine switched players around to become better.

It seems to me that is a very good idea for any team. Not simply teams with talent.

I am not going to argue with you...

The point is on a WEAK team, you have a Strength at 2B in a Gold Glover...

You want to take away a strength to shore up a position and make it above average then bring in an average replacement at Second Base?

That weakens an already weak team...

Keep the Strengths...

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
12-03-2008, 03:24 PM
my peference is to keep bp at 2nd but ...


IF he is healthy i expect agon to be the ss in '09. bp has only played ss in 19 innings in the majors. if agon misses any time i'd rather see bp at ss and kepp at 2nd than the other way around. bp wouldn't be any worse than kepp at ss, kepp is better at 2nd anyway, and we'd be able to know for sure if bp could handle a switch.I can tell you if the 2b on my softball team can handle short and we play once a week. I would hope by now that the Reds organization knows if he could handle the switch or not, my guess is that after watching how they handled Agons injury by having Kepp play short that either they feel he can't make the switch or they have made up their minds that they would prefer that he stays at 2b. Maybe Walt will see it differently, just a thought but maybe BP doesn't feel comfortable at ss, or just doesn't want to make the switch. Pro ballplayers can tend to be real head cases with their routines and superstitions so it's hard telling. I say sacrafice a chicken and put him at short.

I(heart)Freel
12-03-2008, 03:26 PM
I am not going to argue with you...

The point is on a WEAK team, you have a Strength at 2B in a Gold Glover...

You want to take away a strength to shore up a position and make it above average then bring in an average replacement at Second Base?

That weakens an already weak team...

Keep the Strengths...


The original point was that you entertain the idea of moving Brandon IF you find an ABOVE average replacement at second base (that also fills a need in the batting order). Instead of focusing solely at SS upgrades.

So it would be moving a strength to a new position AND acquiring a strength to fill that void. Making a weak team stronger.

I(heart)Freel
12-03-2008, 03:32 PM
I can tell you if the 2b on my softball team can handle short and we play once a week. I would hope by now that the Reds organization knows if he could handle the switch or not, my guess is that after watching how they handled Agons injury by having Kepp play short that either they feel he can't make the switch or they have made up their minds that they would prefer that he stays at 2b. Maybe Walt will see it differently, just a thought but maybe BP doesn't feel comfortable at ss, or just doesn't want to make the switch. Pro ballplayers can tend to be real head cases with their routines and superstitions so it's hard telling. I say sacrafice a chicken and put him at short.

Good point.

I asked Walt about this at the season ticket luncheon at the end of last season. He said he defintiely knows Brandon can play it. And he knows he has that flexibility when constructing this team.

He said he didnt think it would be fair to a player to spring that on him in the middle (or end) of a season.

I suspect that means that after an off season deal with a whole spring training to prepare, the Reds could ask BPhil to move.

Don't you have a gut feeling that now that he's won a Gold Glove at one position, he'd love to show the baseball world he can win it somewhere else? Part of me (and I have no credible reason to think this) thinks Brandon would be extra motivated to show the Indians and his early naysayers that he can still be an elite shortstop.

Now if the Reds sign Furcal in Vegas next week, this whole thread is meaningless.

WillRich
12-03-2008, 11:37 PM
Why move Phillips to SS if he just won a Gold Glove at the position he ought to play 2B.....It wouldn't make since