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View Full Version : Votto to 3rd?



Lockdwn11
11-29-2008, 05:18 PM
I posted this in another thread and want to get your feed back on this. With all the talk on here of EE and Phillips moving why not try moving Votto to 3rd. His off the bag defense at 1st is very good and he was a catcher at one time so his arm and range should play at 3rd. Move EE in a deal or play him at first untill Yonder Alonso is ready and then play him in left or trade him then.

Either way I don't see any reason why Votto couldn't be a plus defender at 3rd and the move would make his bat elite there. With a little work (and we all know Votto is all about putting in the work to be the best he can be) he could become an All-Star 3rd baseman for the Reds.

Hondo
11-29-2008, 05:19 PM
Isn't his arm kinda poor for the Hot corner?

Lockdwn11
11-29-2008, 05:23 PM
Isn't his arm kinda poor for the Hot corner?

I don't think so. I haven't seen it alot but I have seen him take some cut-offs from right and throw some darts to home. He started out as a Catcher and was moved as I understand it because of his bat being to good not to play everyday so I would think he would have the arm to play 3rd

ChatterRed
11-29-2008, 06:17 PM
How about we just trade for a quality third baseman, keep Votto at 1B, Phillips at 2B, and Gonzo at SS? Why do we need to start moving guys around?

Hondo
11-29-2008, 06:23 PM
How about we just trade for a quality third baseman, keep Votto at 1B, Phillips at 2B, and Gonzo at SS? Why do we need to start moving guys around?

Yeah, Garrett Atkins is available and thats the way to go...

This is my list of targets to aquire...

#1 Garrett Atkins...

3rd base solved and you free up EE to be traded or moved to Left field...

#2 Rafael Furcal

New Lead Off Hitter and On Base Machine... Great Defense and with Brandon Phillips, combines for one of the Best Middel Infields in the Majors... Also makes an Impact for the Jake Peavy Trade... Shows Peavy that you are serious for contending by adding Atkins and Furcal...

#3 Jake Peavy

You get an ACE and every other starter benefits from moving down a spot in the rotation...

#4 Joe Beimel

This team needs a great Lefty out of the Bullpen and he is an upgrade over Affeldt

#5 Ivan Rodriguez

A perfect tutor to Hanigan, and if Hanigan flops... It is only a 1 year deal and you can find a Catcher Next year or can trade for one for 2010...

redsfanmia
11-29-2008, 06:25 PM
If Votto could play third base he would already be there. Putting Votto at third would be like putting Dunn there, laughable at best.

Orodle
11-29-2008, 06:38 PM
If Votto could play third base he would already be there. Putting Votto at third would be like putting Dunn there, laughable at best.

Agreed.


Taking cuts is nothing like throwing from 3B. Votto has never played catcher even in the minor leagues. Unless it was way back in high school or something.

*posts like this is why I often have to take a break from Redszone.

dunner13
11-29-2008, 08:12 PM
just sign joe crede, we have the money after trading jr and dunn. He can hit and is a gold glove 3b.

Hondo
11-29-2008, 09:17 PM
just sign joe crede, we have the money after trading jr and dunn. He can hit and is a gold glove 3b.

I like Crede too but I think someone will overpay for him after the Big Run Producers sign...

Thats why I want Walt to grab Garrett Atkins from the Rockies while they are in dismantle Mode...

dunner13
11-29-2008, 09:39 PM
attkins is about as bad defensivly as ee is

Lockdwn11
11-29-2008, 10:17 PM
Agreed.


Taking cuts is nothing like throwing from 3B. Votto has never played catcher even in the minor leagues. Unless it was way back in high school or something.

*posts like this is why I often have to take a break from Redszone.

Well, go take a break from redzone then. You will not be missed. As far as my idea to move Votto to 3rd I was just throwing it out there the same way others are throwing around other ideas of Phillips and EE. Do I think it should happen no but I do think it could work out if the move was made.

Lockdwn11
11-30-2008, 01:39 PM
Agreed.


Taking cuts is nothing like throwing from 3B. Votto has never played catcher even in the minor leagues. Unless it was way back in high school or something.
*posts like this is why I often have to take a break from Redszone.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Baseball/Canada/Draft/draft_2002.html (http:slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Baseball/Canada/Draft/draft_2002.html)


2nd round -- Joey Votto, 3B, 18, Richview College Institute, Toronto (bats L, throws R, 6-3, 200): The 44th overall selection already has reached an oral contract agreement with the Reds. Though Votto was drafted as a third baseman, Cincinnati plans to try him as a catcher. McKeon said Votto worked out with Hall of Fame catcher Johnny Bench, who "was very pleased and surprised that this kid has limited catching experience. We're going to keep him behind the plate and let that left-handed bat carry him as far as it can."


You see Joey Votto started out his MLB career in Dayton as a catcher. He was moved because of his bat and the lack of depth at First in the organization. Like I said before I don't think he should or will be moved to 3rd it was just an idea I had running around in my head. I wanted to see what other informed poster thought about it but you should really get your fact right before you put down others posts/ideas

redsfandan
11-30-2008, 02:06 PM
You see Joey Votto started out his MLB career in Dayton as a catcher. He was moved because of his bat and the lack of depth at First in the organization. Like I said before I don't think he should or will be moved to 3rd it was just an idea I had running around in my head. I wanted to see what other informed poster thought about it but you should really get your fact right before you put down others posts/ideas

makes me wonder what his defense was like as a catcher cuz you don't move a player from catcher to 1st cuz you think he could hit when he's first drafted. lack of depth at 1st? did we have an abundance of depth at catcher that i didn't know about? i know that was in 2002 but ...

Lockdwn11
11-30-2008, 02:47 PM
makes me wonder what his defense was like as a catcher cuz you don't move a player from catcher to 1st cuz you think he could hit when he's first drafted. lack of depth at 1st? did we have an abundance of depth at catcher that i didn't know about? i know that was in 2002 but ...

It could have been below avg. as well I don't know I listed the reason that I saw from different sorces. The only reason Catcher was brought up was to say that he must have the arm to play 3rd or they wouldn't have tried him behind the plate. Your not going to move a guy with a rag arm back there.I wouldn't think.

Orodle
11-30-2008, 04:21 PM
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Baseball/Canada/Draft/draft_2002.html (http:slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Baseball/Canada/Draft/draft_2002.html)


2nd round -- Joey Votto, 3B, 18, Richview College Institute, Toronto (bats L, throws R, 6-3, 200): The 44th overall selection already has reached an oral contract agreement with the Reds. Though Votto was drafted as a third baseman, Cincinnati plans to try him as a catcher. McKeon said Votto worked out with Hall of Fame catcher Johnny Bench, who "was very pleased and surprised that this kid has limited catching experience. We're going to keep him behind the plate and let that left-handed bat carry him as far as it can."


You see Joey Votto started out his MLB career in Dayton as a catcher. He was moved because of his bat and the lack of depth at First in the organization. Like I said before I don't think he should or will be moved to 3rd it was just an idea I had running around in my head. I wanted to see what other informed poster thought about it but you should really get your fact right before you put down others posts/ideas


They may have had that idea but hes never played 1 inning at the catching position anywhere.

Hondo
11-30-2008, 04:25 PM
It was obviously an experiment that went wrong... He's a First Now... Maybe Left when Alonso gets ready...

Chill People.

indyredleg
11-30-2008, 07:30 PM
arm is strong enough to make the throw but his accuracy might be the issue. I like the Crede thought but what are you willing to pay for him? He is a 30yr old career 257 hitter with a 964 fielding percentage but no gold glove.

Emin3mShady07
12-02-2008, 12:13 AM
Yeah, Garrett Atkins is available and thats the way to go...

This is my list of targets to aquire...

#1 Garrett Atkins...

3rd base solved and you free up EE to be traded or moved to Left field...

#2 Rafael Furcal

New Lead Off Hitter and On Base Machine... Great Defense and with Brandon Phillips, combines for one of the Best Middel Infields in the Majors... Also makes an Impact for the Jake Peavy Trade... Shows Peavy that you are serious for contending by adding Atkins and Furcal...

#3 Jake Peavy

You get an ACE and every other starter benefits from moving down a spot in the rotation...

#4 Joe Beimel

This team needs a great Lefty out of the Bullpen and he is an upgrade over Affeldt

#5 Ivan Rodriguez

A perfect tutor to Hanigan, and if Hanigan flops... It is only a 1 year deal and you can find a Catcher Next year or can trade for one for 2010...

I think Furcal and Peavy along with Beimel are excellent targets, however atkins and Ivan rodriguez are not. Rodriguez does not have the arm he used to and as I have said before, his offense is atrocious, not to mention his name should net him a decent contract and I don't think the reds need to spend money poorly. Atkins is one of the worst fielders at 3B in the NL, so he would hardly solve the EE situation and he is due for a raise in arb next year, so I also think this would be a poor use of the money that the reds have available. Atkins also only has a .752 OPS away from Coors and that really is not a good indicator of his value. http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=atkinga01 I know that GABP is a hitters park, but it is no Coors.


just sign joe crede, we have the money after trading jr and dunn. He can hit and is a gold glove 3b.

Crede is a decent hitter, but his OPS is very slugging driven and as he is getting older, mind you I imagine he is aging a little faster than the average player because of his bad back, his ability to hit doubles and homers may decrease and he really does not have a great eye at the plate so his value will tank in the very near future, plus scott boras is his agent and that guy is just a pain to deal with. Crede does play excellent defense, but there is no guarantee that this continues to be the case with his health and age. Crede's average OPS+ is 93 which is not especially good for a 3B http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/credejo01.shtml. I would stay away from crede, but I find him a little better of an option than Garrett Atkins

Atlas Jobinson
12-02-2008, 03:43 AM
Crede is a decent hitter, but his OPS is very slugging driven and as he is getting older, mind you I imagine he is aging a little faster than the average player because of his bad back, his ability to hit doubles and homers may decrease and he really does not have a great eye at the plate so his value will tank in the very near future, plus scott boras is his agent and that guy is just a pain to deal with. Crede does play excellent defense, but there is no guarantee that this continues to be the case with his health and age. Crede's average OPS+ is 93 which is not especially good for a 3B http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/credejo01.shtml. I would stay away from crede, but I find him a little better of an option than Garrett Atkins

I completely agree. I still think the best plan would be to go after Beltre and shift Encarnacion to left. Beltre provides great defense and we can finally get EE away from the hot corner. In a year or two, Frazier will be ready to assume third base, and Alonso will be ready for first. Votto can then go to left.

Hondo
12-03-2008, 12:16 AM
Why is everyone so High on Beltre? That guy has fizzled in Seattle since his 48 Homer year with the Dodgers...

Me thinks Steroids...

redsfandan
12-03-2008, 08:44 AM
Why is everyone so High on Beltre? That guy has fizzled in Seattle since his 48 Homer year with the Dodgers...

Me thinks Steroids...

maybe but iirc that was a contract year. just like '09 will be.

TDHND
12-03-2008, 12:03 PM
I completely agree. I still think the best plan would be to go after Beltre and shift Encarnacion to left. Beltre provides great defense and we can finally get EE away from the hot corner. In a year or two, Frazier will be ready to assume third base, and Alonso will be ready for first. Votto can then go to left.

I've been thinking the same thing about Alonso and Votto.

Hondo
12-03-2008, 01:17 PM
maybe but iirc that was a contract year. just like '09 will be.

Negative...

He went from hitting .334 with 48 Homers to

1st Year with Seattle: .255 with 19 Homers...

Thats not Contract year slide, that is No Juice Slide...

redsfanmia
12-03-2008, 06:25 PM
Votto was signed as a catcher so why dont the Reds make him their everyday starter there?

Emin3mShady07
12-03-2008, 10:22 PM
Negative...

He went from hitting .334 with 48 Homers to

1st Year with Seattle: .255 with 19 Homers...

Thats not Contract year slide, that is No Juice Slide...

Regardless, the primary purpose for adding Beltre would be defense and he still plays excellent defense. And anywho, his OPS has been between .780-.800 the last three years which is decent, potentially what EE will do next year, although I hope EE is better than that and last year his BABIP was much lower than it could potentially be based on his LD%, Beltre that is.
http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/player/index.php?lastName=beltre

redsfandan
12-04-2008, 09:47 AM
Negative...

He went from hitting .334 with 48 Homers to

1st Year with Seattle: .255 with 19 Homers...

Thats not Contract year slide, that is No Juice Slide...

both that year and next year were/are contract years. there's nothing "negative" about that. that's fact. do i think that's the only possible reason why that year stands out so much? of course not. it was probably a combination of things. but some players turn it up a notch in a contract year. maybe he had 'help' that season so he could land a bigger deal as a FA. who knows. what i do know is he still is a decent offensive player that could have 30 hr/100 rbi and is very solid defensively.

Hondo
12-04-2008, 01:13 PM
both that year and next year were/are contract years. there's nothing "negative" about that. that's fact. do i think that's the only possible reason why that year stands out so much? of course not. it was probably a combination of things. but some players turn it up a notch in a contract year. maybe he had 'help' that season so he could land a bigger deal as a FA. who knows. what i do know is he still is a decent offensive player that could have 30 hr/100 rbi and is very solid defensively.

Dan,

Thats not turning it up a Notch... Look at the years before and after... Has to be Steroids... for a Contract year Pay Day...

The guy makes too much money to go .280-20/25-80-90

Thats all... You can get the same production from Edwin Encarncion if he stays on progression... Not as Good D yeah, but we're talking about an 11-12 Million Player...

redsfandan
12-04-2008, 01:49 PM
both that year and next year were/are contract years. there's nothing "negative" about that. that's fact. do i think that's the only possible reason why that year stands out so much? of course not. it was probably a combination of things. but some players turn it up a notch in a contract year. maybe he had 'help' that season so he could land a bigger deal as a FA. who knows. what i do know is he still is a decent offensive player that could have 30 hr/100 rbi and is very solid defensively.


Dan,

Thats not turning it up a Notch... Look at the years before and after... Has to be Steroids... for a Contract year Pay Day...
The guy makes too much money to go .280-20/25-80-90

Thats all... You can get the same production from Edwin Encarncion if he stays on progression... Not as Good D yeah, but we're talking about an 11-12 Million Player...

not much difference there. yes IF EE improves he can match his production or exceed it at least offensively. that's been his potential for a few years now. i like EE. i also think beltre is a solid all around player. but i wouldn't like to pay that much either. but beltre is just one of many ideas thrown out there by people as ways to improve the team. the one thing that i think most, if not all, people can agree on is that if EE can't improve defensively we'll need to have a new 3rd baseman for 2010.

Hondo
12-04-2008, 02:32 PM
not much difference there. yes IF EE improves he can match his production or exceed it at least offensively. that's been his potential for a few years now. i like EE. i also think beltre is a solid all around player. but i wouldn't like to pay that much either. but beltre is just one of many ideas thrown out there by people as ways to improve the team. the one thing that i think most, if not all, people can agree on is that if EE can't improve defensively we'll need to have a new 3rd baseman for 2010.

Don't get me wrong... I don't like EE... Was too inconsistent on hitting... One day you want to name a Street after him and the next ya want to run him over on that same street...

I just know for the money... The offensive number for the 2 will be close although Beltre will probably have more Doubles.

I am for Garrett Atkins.

You bring in Rafael Furcal and Garrett Atkins and Furcal leads off and Atkins goes in the 6 hole...

That makes this Lineup that much better...

Furcal will hit .300-.320 with 100 Runs easily...

Atkins in the GAB will probably be around .290+ with 30 Bombs and 90+ RBI...

Mind you I am not looking for Garrett Atkins to be a cleanup Hitter, more of the 6 Hole Hitter behind Votto or Bruce...

fadetoblack2880
12-04-2008, 02:47 PM
I don't understand why everyone wants to move players from their positions. He's plays first, leave him there. Alonso won't be around this year so there isn't a need to worry about him right now. The Reds need a LF. They have a SS who missed last season and who will be in the starting lineup next season. They have a 3B too. Moving Votto to left opens up a hole at first. Moving Edwin to first opens up a hole at third. Moving Phillips to SS will open a hole at second. It's a no win situation. Keppinger is not an everyday player. He's more valuable off the bench. He can be used to spell Gonzalez at short, Phillips at second, or Encarnacion at third if need be. He shouldn't be starting unless one of those guys are injured or in need of a day off. In my opinion, leave the guys where they are. Worry about youngsters like Alonso, etc., when they arrive.

Hondo
12-04-2008, 02:56 PM
I don't understand why everyone wants to move players from their positions. He's plays first, leave him there. Alonso won't be around this year so there isn't a need to worry about him right now. The Reds need a LF. They have a SS who missed last season and who will be in the starting lineup next season. They have a 3B too. Moving Votto to left opens up a hole at first. Moving Edwin to first opens up a hole at third. Moving Phillips to SS will open a hole at second. It's a no win situation. Keppinger is not an everyday player. He's more valuable off the bench. He can be used to spell Gonzalez at short, Phillips at second, or Encarnacion at third if need be. He shouldn't be starting unless one of those guys are injured or in need of a day off. In my opinion, leave the guys where they are. Worry about youngsters like Alonso, etc., when they arrive.

Cause these guys would rather Move Votto now to sign an aging Journeyman Firstbaseman, or move Brandon Phillips to SS to sign a Ray Durham to be a hack at the plate and at 2nd...

Instead of signing some Great SS or Signing a Great Right handed leftfielder with Power.

fadetoblack2880
12-04-2008, 03:02 PM
Cause these guys would rather Move Votto now to sign an aging Journeyman Firstbaseman, or move Brandon Phillips to SS to sign a Ray Durham to be a hack at the plate and at 2nd...

Instead of signing some Great SS or Signing a Great Right handed leftfielder with Power.

Yup. Why not shoot for 10 consecutive losing seasons? It's incredible that people believe that moving every infielder to a new position will make this a successful team.

redsfandan
12-04-2008, 03:11 PM
for '09 that's my preference as well and what i expect will happen. EE has to improve next year to stick. i'd rather deal alonso for a ss/p than move votto.

edit: i didn't see hondos post. someone wants to add an old 1st baseman? news to me. moving players should be a last resort.

Lockdwn11
12-06-2008, 12:21 PM
Cause these guys would rather Move Votto now to sign an aging Journeyman Firstbaseman, or move Brandon Phillips to SS to sign a Ray Durham to be a hack at the plate and at 2nd...

Instead of signing some Great SS or Signing a Great Right handed leftfielder with Power.

Ok, first of all I for one never said I was for moving anyone.With all the talk on here on moving BP or EE I just brought up the idea of moving Votto to 3rd to see what others thought and some people on here took it as me advocating Votto moving to 3rd .I'm not and I don't.Could it work in my mind? Yes, or it could be a total bust. The best thing is for Votto,BP and EE to do is stay put or in EE case traded for a other 3rd baseman the Reds like better.

In a perfect world or a fantasy world there would be a "Great SS or a Great right handed bat with power" out there that the Reds could sign cheap or trade thier junk away for but thats not going to happen. All they can do is the best they can with whats availble to them by way of FA or trade and this year there isn't much on the FA market. If it was up to me to improve this team I would sign Juan Rivera to a two year deal. Send EE to SF for J. Sanchez and trade for A. Beltre. Is there still going to be holes ? Yes, but what team doesn't have them?

BEETTLEBUG
12-06-2008, 12:59 PM
I like your moves Lockdwn11. I think that would work. I don't understand why Castillo can't be tried as backup catcher.

Kingspoint
12-06-2008, 10:09 PM
How about we just trade for a quality third baseman, keep Votto at 1B, Phillips at 2B, and Gonzo at SS? Why do we need to start moving guys around?

Alonzo's arrival to First Base in September of 2009.

redsfandan
12-07-2008, 03:28 AM
maybe. alonso still has barely any experience as a pro so imo it's a little soon to plan on him at 1st next fall. we have a plus 1st baseman now and alot can happen between now and next september.