Khalil Green Traded To The Cards

[RedLegSuperStar]

MLBTR.Com

Khalil Green was dealt to St. Louis for two relievers. The Cards just signed Miller but their bullpen would seem to be depleated with this move. The relievers are yet to be announced.

[Screwball]

MLBTR.Com

Khalil Green was dealt to St. Louis for two relievers. The Cards just signed Miller but their bullpen would seem to be depleated with this move. The relievers are yet to be announced.

Perhaps the "closer" known as Ryan Franklin.

[membengal]

Geez, that seems a small price to pay for Green. I would have liked to have seen him in Cincy, particularly at that cost.

Frustrating.

[HeatherC1212]

That's all they got for him?! :eek: The Reds could have done something like that and heck, the Orioles (who need a SS in a very bad way) could have done something like that too. The market this year is turning out to be quite interesting (and slightly odd) and it's barely December. What's going to happen next? :dunno:

[puca]

Have the relievers been named? My understanding (from another report) is they are reliever prospects, if you believe in the existence of such a thing. And they are not necessarily on the major league roster.

[PuffyPig]

The two relievers are two prospects. This was a salary dump by the Padres.

Greene at $6.5M wasn't a particularly good value.

[REDREAD]

Potentially great move by the Cards, unless the prospects are really outstanding (which I doubt).

The Cards are paying about 1.5 million more for Greene than we're paying AGon, and Greene is a better defender, a better athlete, and has better offense upside (which may be unrealized). Greene might really benefit from a change of scenery. If my employer tried to avoid paying me for a couple months and I had to file a grievence, I'd have a bad attitude too.

I understand the Reds had their hands somewhat tied because of the AGon millstone around their neck.

[membengal]

Green at $6.5 million is not an awful value either, and would have filled a need on this team. Perhaps Jock has something better in the pipeline.

[M2]

Cardinals relievers prospects include Chris Perez (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/P/chris-perez-1.shtml), Fernando Salas (http://thebaseballcube.com/players/S/Fernando-Salas.shtml), Luke Gregerson (http://thebaseballcube.com/players/G/Lucas-Gregerson.shtml) and Francisco Samuel (http://thebaseballcube.com/players/S/Francisco-Samuel.shtml).

[Dom Heffner]

Am I the only one who's thankful the Reds didn't get Greene's .260 OBP and .339 SLG?

He is awful, awful, awful with the bat.

[dfs]

Am I the only one who's thankful the Reds didn't get Greene's .260 OBP and .339 SLG?

He is awful, awful, awful with the bat.
I guess if you're just gonna look at last year's numbers you will consistantly buy high and sell low.

Greene was hurt last year and spent most of the year annoying Padres management. At 6.5 million, he's not dramatically overpaid.

Say he snaps back to career values (which I don't think would be unusual) and he hits 248/304/427 and then you give him a slight bumb for GAB and he's at 255/320/460 playing decent defense at shortstop. That's something the reds could use.

I'll be looking to see what the Padres got in return. It may be that the reds just couldn't match the offer.

[nate]

Am I the only one who's thankful the Reds didn't get Greene's .260 OBP and .339 SLG?

Nope!

[Johnny Footstool]

Am I the only one who's thankful the Reds didn't get Greene's .260 OBP and .339 SLG?

He is awful, awful, awful with the bat.

Getting away from Petco will help.

[Dom Heffner]

Bumping Greene to a .320 OBP is generous, and if our mindset is that Khalil Greene is any kind of answer we are in trouble.

I want good players not just good value. The box score still shows lousy stats, no matter how much you pay for it.

[PuffyPig]

Say he snaps back to career values (which I don't think would be unusual) and he hits 248/304/427 and then you give him a slight bumb for GAB and he's at 255/320/460 playing decent defense at shortstop. That's something the reds could use.



Greene may be an OK risk, but he's gotten to a .300 OBA twice in 6 seasons.

GAB may bump players power numbers, but I don't believe it bumps players OBA.

It depends on the value of the prospects. I wouldn't give up much for one year of a $6.5M SS who can't get on base but with decent fielding and power potential.

[VR]

Getting away from Petco will help.

pre-2008 he was mighty serviceable w/ the bat.

I'd guess he becomes an all-star in StL under TLR

[redsmetz]

I understand the Reds had their hands somewhat tied because of the AGon millstone around their neck.

Ultimately, the Gonzalez contract is a millstone due to the circumstances, first the family matter and then the injury. While many argued that Gonzo wasn't any great shake, I still believe it was a good signing that recognized we were a few years away from either developing a shortstop or acquiring one elsewhere. I think had the two events not happened, he would have been helpful to this club. Clearly now, he's a vast question mark and essentially unmoveable. Things happen, unfortunate though they are.

[blumj]

Green at $6.5 million is not an awful value either, and would have filled a need on this team. Perhaps Jock has something better in the pipeline.
That's almost the same as what Coco Crisp would have cost, and he was supposedly ready to make that deal. But maybe he sees better or cheaper alternatives at SS.

[dfs]

It depends on the value of the prospects. I wouldn't give up much for one year of a $6.5M SS who can't get on base but with decent fielding and power potential.

I suspect we are very much in agreement about this.
The thing is as I read it, the reds choices boiled down to.

A. Paying prospects and 6.5M for Greene and hoping for a bounceback.
B. Outbidding the Giants and the A's for Furcal on the free agent market and hoping that he was healthy.
C. Hoping the health fairy visits Alex Gonzalez house and that he's healthy for the first time in two years.
D. Give the job to Paul Janish and hope his bat doesn't hurt you too much.
E. Give the job to Jeff Keppinger and hope he really was hurt in 08 and his numbers with the bat bounce back and that his glove doesn't hurt you.

Since I think the reds should be in the buisness of adding talent, I think A. was the best option of those. If the Card's didn't give up anything of value, I'll be disappointed in the red's front office.

For all the whining from the front office about improving this team's defense, I think shortstop was the best place to do it. Maybe they really do believe that Alex Gonzalez is going to be healthy and in fine form this year.

[Dom Heffner]

Greene has a nice stick, I'm being harsh on him, I know. I just have little patience and faith for someone who won't take a walk to the point of making an out 70% of the time.

In close to 5 seasons he's posted an OBP over .300 twice.

Not my cup of tea.

You get 20 homers, 40 doubles and lots of outs. Lots and lots of outs.

[Jpup]

waits to be told how great of a deal this is for the Cardinals. After all, it's the Cardinals.

[corkedbat]

waits to be told how great of a deal this is for the Cardinals. After all, it's the Cardinals.


Somebody be sure to ask George Grande at Redsfest if he thinks this puts the Cards over the top. :D

[RedlegJake]

I suspect we are very much in agreement about this.
The thing is as I read it, the reds choices boiled down to.

A. Paying prospects and 6.5M for Greene and hoping for a bounceback.
B. Outbidding the Giants and the A's for Furcal on the free agent market and hoping that he was healthy.
C. Hoping the health fairy visits Alex Gonzalez house and that he's healthy for the first time in two years.
D. Give the job to Paul Janish and hope his bat doesn't hurt you too much.
E. Give the job to Jeff Keppinger and hope he really was hurt in 08 and his numbers with the bat bounce back and that his glove doesn't hurt you.

Since I think the reds should be in the buisness of adding talent, I think A. was the best option of those. If the Card's didn't give up anything of value, I'll be disappointed in the red's front office.

For all the whining from the front office about improving this team's defense, I think shortstop was the best place to do it. Maybe they really do believe that Alex Gonzalez is going to be healthy and in fine form this year.

Unless Greene ups his offensive game he is barely a better option than Paul Janish at this point. Add 6.5 million to the equation and I disagree that A was the best option - getting Greene would have been a ehhh move - not horrible but certainly inefficient. It's not only the trade cost in talent given up - in that regard St.Louis got a deal, but the financial part, which cannot be seperated from todays roster construction. For the Reds Greene was simply not a good option. Certainly not horrible but a bit limiting in the financial sense.

[M2]

waits to be told how great of a deal this is for the Cardinals. After all, it's the Cardinals.

Seeing that I thought the Reds would be wise to go after Greene - career road numbers of .318 OB, .484 SLG - I pretty much have to acknowledge that I think the Cardinals have made a good move. It's sort of the opposite of the Eric Milton situation four years ago. Heading into that offseason I thought any team that signed Milton was getting the booby prize of the free agent market. Then the Reds signed him.

Plus, Greene's headed into a contract year. With the recognition that there are no perfect solutions available at SS, liberating Greene from Petco and adding in the motivation of a new contract strikes me as a potential winning combination. What any team searching for a SS should be looking for is someone who can step up.

[REDREAD]

Unless Greene ups his offensive game he is barely a better option than Paul Janish at this point. .

Not sure I agree here. Janish is looking like Anderson Machado Jr, he really has no business hitting in the ML.

I don't mind having a good defensive SS that is a little bit offensively challenged, but I'm not sure Janish would outproduce the pitchers offensively if he played everyday.

[HeatherC1212]

I don't mind having a good defensive SS that is a little bit offensively challenged, but I'm not sure Janish would outproduce the pitchers offensively if he played everyday.

We could always bat him ninth....that seems to be the new trend in the NL Central for the lineups to not be 'normal', LOL :laugh:

[dfs]

Not sure I agree here. Janish is looking like Anderson Machado Jr, he really has no business hitting in the ML.

I don't mind having a good defensive SS that is a little bit offensively challenged, but I'm not sure Janish would outproduce the pitchers offensively if he played everyday.
yeah....but what you do get by playing Paul Janish is a superior glove. You KNOW he's going to bring that where post injury Greene might not be a true asset there.

You also get the benefit of finding out if Paul Janish deserves a place on your 25 man roster. (One of my arguments for letting both Hannigan and Dickerson play) I mean...I don't think he does, but I've been wrong about players before.

I guess I could be convinced that giving the PT to Janish makes sense.

Of course now, they'll go and sign Furcal.

[M2]

Not sure I agree here. Janish is looking like Anderson Machado Jr, he really has no business hitting in the ML.

My thoughts exactly. Maybe he can useful in a bench role, though benches are short these days because everyone carries seven relievers.

[REDREAD]

yeah....but what you do get by playing Paul Janish is a superior glove. You KNOW he's going to bring that where post injury Greene might not be a true asset there.

You also get the benefit of finding out if Paul Janish deserves a place on your 25 man roster. (One of my arguments for letting both Hannigan and Dickerson play) I mean...I don't think he does, but I've been wrong about players before.

I guess I could be convinced that giving the PT to Janish makes sense.

Of course now, they'll go and sign Furcal.

IMO, I already know that Janish doesn't belong on the 25 man roster, although I respect your opinion otherwise. My guess is that Walt has already decided that Janish is not ML material either, that's why he's looking for a young, cheap SS. Personally, I think Janish's upside is Juan Castro (back when Castro was young and had some range and was a legit glove guy).

Hannigan and Dickerson are much better prospects than Janish, IMO.

I'm not so sure Janish is a better defender than Greene either. If Janish is a better defender, it doesn't make up for the huge gap in projected offense, IMO.

[Falls City Beer]

I'm glad the Reds didn't get this guy, but you KNOW he's going to kick the Reds' brains in now that he's a Cardinal.

[OnBaseMachine]

It looks like one of the players headed to the Padres is Mark Worrell...he's the Cardinals version of Josh Roenicke. So far that's a solid return for the Padres.

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Mark%20Worrell&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=450312

[fearofpopvol1]

but you KNOW he's going to kick the Reds' brains in now that he's a Cardinal.

You know, I agree.

[remdog]

...but you KNOW he's going to kick the Reds' brains in now that he's a Cardinal.

I had exactly the same thought. :lol:

I will say that the Pads must have really wanted to get this guy out of there if they sent him away for what is rumored to be a couple of so-so prospect relievers.

Rem

[Rojo]

Ideally, I'd like to solve shortstop for two or three years, not one. Greene sucks in 2009 and we'd let him walk. He puts up "good" numbers, somebody overpays for him.

[cincrazy]

Thank God he's not a Red. I understand his defensive ability, but the fact of the matter is this man would have been entrenched in the #2 hole in our lineup. No thank you.

[RedLegSuperStar]

Pads are going to kick in 1MM to the Cards

[westofyou]

Prediction: Green's laconic approach to the game will drive LaRussa CRAZY.

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2008/dec/06/sullivan-padres-greenes-victim-lofty-ambitions/?padres


Enigmatic shortstop appears to be a victim of his lofty ambitions

Tim Sullivan


Saturday, December 6, 2008

Perfection has eluded Khalil Greene. So, it seems, has joy.

The shortstop who left the Padres on Thursday for St. Louis departs as a riddle wrapped in a mystery beneath a Jeff Spicoli haircut. Greene spent five seasons in San Diego, mostly hidden in plain sight, much of it brooding.

“One of the things that people don't really see is how he internalizes so much,” Padres manager Bud Black said Friday. “He doesn't let it out, but he's a player who cares a great deal about his performance, to the point where it gets to him. ...

“I wish he would let go and enjoy how good he is. But for whatever reason, he can't do it.”

Keenly intelligent, diligent and detailed, yet flagrantly flawed, Khalil Greene does not play baseball so much as he labors at it, sharpening his reflexes through draining repetition, practicing plays he might never encounter, preparing himself for every contingency except failure.

Until he fractured his fist in a fit of frustration commemorating his 100th strikeout of last season, Greene's impassive facade earned him the reputation of a baseball robot. Former Padres coach Davey Lopes once wondered whether Greene would reveal any emotion were he to win the seventh game of the World Series with a home run.

Yet the real issue with Greene was never indifference, but resilience. On his best days, he doesn't seem to savor his successes. When he struggles, each successive at-bat shows more strain.

“I think it's difficult to make adjustments when you're going back to the dugout swinging at bad pitches and taking good pitches,” Greene admitted in the midst of a .196 May last season.

This was a few days after Greene struck out 10 times in a weekend series against the Cincinnati Reds, and the shortstop discussed his slump so openly and analytically that it was almost as if it had happened to someone else. He admitted to frustration, but evinced no anguish, his voice as soft and smooth as the pocket of his glove.

“I think there are certain guys who have the aptitude to do different things well,” he said. “And there are certain other guys – and I categorize myself in the second part – where I think if I try to put the ball in play and really cut down (the swing), I think that's when I have a tendency to swing at pitches that are more out of the zone.”

The most popular theories held that Greene was thinking too much and reacting too little; that he lacked confidence in his approach and therefore had difficulty settling on one stance; and that he was as good as out against a two-strike breaking ball thrown low and away.

All of these analyses may have been accurate. Certainly, the Padres' grievance procedure over Greene's season-ending tantrum had some bearing on the club's decision to make a deal. Yet the key factor underpinning Thursday's trade was undoubtedly finances.

Unable to count on owner John Moores to provide a cash infusion during his divorce, Padres management has had little choice but to prune its player payroll to conform with its revenue projections. Current calculations indicate a cut close to the $40 million mark, which falls somewhere between an austerity budget and the Florida Marlins.

Shedding Greene's $6.5 million salary still leaves the Padres roughly $5 million short of that goal, so it does not mean the Padres can afford to keep pitching ace Jake Peavy. Still, it should reduce their desperation to make a deal.

There's still a gun at management's head, to be sure, but at least it's no longer cocked. General Manager Kevin Towers says the Chicago Cubs now have the talent available to swing a Peavy deal (through the involvement of third parties), but that the Padres now have enough flexibility to say no.

“It doesn't look as though Peavy is a definite goner,” Black said. “I would think KT will continue to fish a little bit.”

Given the Padres' bleak short-term prospects, and the $63 million remaining on Peavy's contract, a preseason trade remains the likeliest outcome.

Conceivably, Towers said, trading Peavy could give the Padres the financial flexibility to revisit negotiations with estranged reliever Trevor Hoffman. On the other hand (to borrow Sandy Alderson's pet phrase), what good is a closer if you're always behind?

The Padres' predicament is so painfully plain that the front office is making no effort to justify its salary dumps as anything else. Towers was pleased that the pitchers the Cardinals exchanged for Greene made the deal more palatable than another proposal he was considering (presumably from the Baltimore Orioles), but he doesn't pretend that he found fair value.

Towers has learned to make the best of a bad situation. Khalil Greene could benefit by taking note.

[Mario-Rijo]

Prediction: Green's laconic approach to the game will drive LaRussa CRAZY.

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2008/dec/06/sullivan-padres-greenes-victim-lofty-ambitions/?padres


Enigmatic shortstop appears to be a victim of his lofty ambitions

Tim Sullivan

Thanks for that WOY, a good read.

[IslandRed]

yeah....but what you do get by playing Paul Janish is a superior glove. You KNOW he's going to bring that where post injury Greene might not be a true asset there.

You also get the benefit of finding out if Paul Janish deserves a place on your 25 man roster. (One of my arguments for letting both Hannigan and Dickerson play) I mean...I don't think he does, but I've been wrong about players before.

I guess I could be convinced that giving the PT to Janish makes sense.

Realizing you aren't arguing to play Janish, just responding to the thoughts expressed... I think we all found out last year with Corey Patterson that, no matter how good someone's defense may be, there's a minimum threshold that has to be reached with the bat or else the guy is going to kill us.

But at this point, even if we don't upgrade via trade or free agency, I don't see where Janish is any better than third in line for the shortstop job.

[vaticanplum]

Boy, Kahlil Greene sounds like a dream date, no?