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redhawk61
12-04-2008, 06:28 PM
Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine
Tigers, Reds showing interest in Laird
Texas on lookout for pitching in return for veteran backstop

By T.R. Sullivan / MLB.com

ARLINGTON -- The Cincinnati Reds and the Detroit Tigers appear to have shown the most interest in Rangers catcher Gerald Laird, according to Major League sources.

General manager Jon Daniels said Thursday he is having conversations with a number of clubs about the Rangers' catching depth. He declined to discuss specifics, but it appears the Rangers are moving closer to getting something done and it likely involves Laird.

Teams have also expressed interest in Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Taylor Teagarden and Max Ramirez. But the Rangers appear to be more interested in trading Laird, who is eligible for arbitration. He could make around $3 million next year and can also be a free agent after the 2010 season.

"We've touched base with everybody, and have had more extensive dialogue with some clubs," Daniels said. "We have a good handle on our options. We have a sense of the type of deals we can move on. We've had second and third conversations and followup conversations with clubs. There's a potential for something to happen."

The Rangers have also had discussions with the Red Sox, but they appear more interested in Saltalamacchia or Teagarden. They have also no interest in trading Clay Buchholz. The Rangers have interest in some of their other young pitchers, including Michael Bowden and Justin Masterson.

The Houston Astros are looking for catching help, but don't have much in the way of young pitching to offer. The Rangers are looking for pitching in return for any deal involving their catchers.

"Pitching is our priority this offseason," Daniels said.

The Reds' most appealing young pitcher is reliever Joshua Roenicke, a hard-throwing right-hander who was 6-2 with a 2.82 ERA, 13 saves and 71 strikeouts in 61 innings between Double-A Carolina and Triple-A Louisville this past season. He appeared in five games for the Reds in September, and he is high on the Rangers' list.

Other Reds pitchers of interest are right-handed starters Daryl Thompson and Homer Bailey, and relievers Carlos Fisher, Pedro Viola and Robert Manuel. Viola is a left-hander who was converted to a starter at the end of this past season, and, in seven starts, was 3-1 with a 2.45 ERA in Double-A. In 33 innings, he gave up 27 hits, nine walks and struck out 30.

The Tigers' two best young pitchers that are Major League ready are right-handers Zach Miner and Chris Lambert. Miner was 8-5 with a 4.27 ERA in 45 games -- including 13 starts -- in 2008, while Lambert, a former first-round pick for the Cardinals, was 1-2 with a 5.66 ERA. He was 12-8 with a 3.50 ERA in Triple-A Toledo.

But it was the Tigers' overall lack of good young pitching that made them take a chance on former Rangers pitcher Armando Galarraga last April, and he became one of their most reliable starters.

Other young arms in the Tigers system that are raw but could enter into the discussion are right-handers Luis Marte, Guillermo Moscoso and Alfredo Figaro. But none of them have pitched in the Major Leagues or are deemed close to being ready for the big league level.

Laird hit .276 with six home runs and 41 RBIs in 95 games and 344 at-bats in 2008. Over the past three years, he has the fourth-best percentage (36.3) of throwing out basestealers among Major League catchers.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/...=.jsp&c_id=cin

757690
12-04-2008, 06:45 PM
Thanks for the update.

I would give the Rangers any of those names mentioned for Laird except Bailey, and maybe even two of them depending on the two. Laird would be very valuable as a platoon partner with Hanigan, but no way he is worth a top 10 prospect, let alone Bailey who was a top 10 prospect in all the majors last year.

UPRedsFan
12-04-2008, 06:50 PM
As a right handed hitter Laird hit .288 against rhp in 250 at bats last year. Not only is he an upgrade defensively, he's an upgrade offensively as well. Would you give Roenicke? I think yes.

Hondo
12-04-2008, 07:04 PM
Why would you want to go with Laird and have to pay 3 Million in arbitration...

Go for Salty...

Bip Roberts
12-04-2008, 07:09 PM
Id give up pretty much any bullpen arm for him. I dont think hes all that good but maybe im just missing something in his game.

GoReds33
12-04-2008, 07:18 PM
Why would you want to go with Laird and have to pay 3 Million in arbitration...

Go for Salty...We have to remember that three million isn't that much money in baseball. Sure, three million dollars a year can add up with a bunch of players, but IMO, he is well worth it. Good catching is almost priceless in baseball.

ChatterRed
12-04-2008, 07:34 PM
I just don't get all the hype in trying to acquire Laird. He just turned 29 in November. He has a career .255 batting average and .306 OBP and .383 SLG. He's played over 100 games once in his 6 year career (120 games in 2007). I would not give up much for him because I don't think anyone else would either.

If the Reds are looking to platoon, it doesn't make much sense, since both Hanigan and Laird are righties.

If Laird wants to be the backup, then okay, that's fine. But you don't trade a Homer Bailey for a backup catcher.

The whole giddy about acquiring Laird ordeal really strikes me as weird to say the least.

Hondo
12-04-2008, 08:24 PM
We have to remember that three million isn't that much money in baseball. Sure, three million dollars a year can add up with a bunch of players, but IMO, he is well worth it. Good catching is almost priceless in baseball.

Bud, 3 Million Bucks on this team Buys ya Mike Stanton...

This team would be better to put that 3 Million and the 2.5 Million it is paying Lincoln into 5.5 Million, then chuck 10 Million on that and sign someone good...

Emin3mShady07
12-04-2008, 09:01 PM
We have to remember that three million isn't that much money in baseball. Sure, three million dollars a year can add up with a bunch of players, but IMO, he is well worth it. Good catching is almost priceless in baseball.

1. Gerald Laird is not very good at the plate and I would hate to see the reds throw away a decent prospect to get him. His offense is very poor. He OPSed .727 last year and .627 the year before not to mention his career high OBP in the majors is .332. Hanigan has a career OPS of .754 in the minors with a .382 OBP (which is more important than slugging) to go with it. Why not save the money and play a guy who will most likely be just as good if not better. In his only complete year in AAA Hanigan had an OPS of .811 last year. Laird has a career .789 OPS against lefties but is playing less than hald a season worth $3 million and a good prospect or two? Not in my opinion

2. Laird isn't anything special on defense either. It has been proven that catchers really don't have a huge impact on what a pitching staff does (the writers of baseball between the numbers dedicated a chapter to that). And He isn't a blocking wizard either http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2008/12/1/675791/2008-catcher-block-percent so I really don't see why the reds should waste a good prospect on him.

TheNext44
12-04-2008, 09:13 PM
1. Gerald Laird is not very good at the plate and I would hate to see the reds throw away a decent prospect to get him. His offense is very poor. He OPSed .727 last year and .627 the year before not to mention his career high OBP in the majors is .332. Hanigan has a career OPS of .754 in the minors with a .382 OBP (which is more important than slugging) to go with it. Why not save the money and play a guy who will most likely be just as good if not better. In his only complete year in AAA Hanigan had an OPS of .811 last year. Laird has a career .789 OPS against lefties but is playing less than hald a season worth $3 million and a good prospect or two? Not in my opinion

2. Laird isn't anything special on defense either. It has been proven that catchers really don't have a huge impact on what a pitching staff does (the writers of baseball between the numbers dedicated a chapter to that). And He isn't a blocking wizard either http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2008/12/1/675791/2008-catcher-block-percent so I really don't see why the reds should waste a good prospect on him.

I think it is an overstatement to say that this has been proven. I have not read the chapter or the book you are refering to, but I think it is impossible to "prove" that something like that either exists or does not exist. Just because there are no numbers to suggest that it exists does not mean that it doesn't. It just means that no one has found stats that back it up. There was a time that you could say that there is no proof that walks help a team win almost as much as hits, but then all sorts of new stats came out that suggested that they do. We are at just the beginning of understanding defensive stats, and I really believe that in the next few years, we will understand them like we understand offensive one.

Anyway, I do agree that there is no need to spend resources on acquiring him, unless he is like Mike Matheny or one of the Molina brothers. I have no idea how good he is behind the plate. I have seen like one Ranger game in the last two years.
Hanigan is fine for next year, and the Reds would be fine with a player like Bako backing him up, as long he doesn't get as much playing time as Bako got last year.

TheNext44
12-04-2008, 09:15 PM
Thanks for the update.

I would give the Rangers any of those names mentioned for Laird except Bailey, and maybe even two of them depending on the two. Laird would be very valuable as a platoon partner with Hanigan, but no way he is worth a top 10 prospect, let alone Bailey who was a top 10 prospect in all the majors last year.

I wouldn't even get that much. Maybe Viola or Manual, but that would be the most.

Emin3mShady07
12-04-2008, 10:03 PM
I think it is an overstatement to say that this has been proven. I have not read the chapter or the book you are refering to, but I think it is impossible to "prove" that something like that either exists or does not exist. Just because there are no numbers to suggest that it exists does not mean that it doesn't. It just means that no one has found stats that back it up. There was a time that you could say that there is no proof that walks help a team win almost as much as hits, but then all sorts of new stats came out that suggested that they do. We are at just the beginning of understanding defensive stats, and I really believe that in the next few years, we will understand them like we understand offensive one.


Very true and I do realize that it was indeed a bit of an overstatement. The chapter, and I only point it out because you mention his name, was "Is Mike Matheny a catching Genius?" but anyways, my point is that even if Gerald Laird called a "great" game, it is more on the pitchers to execute than it is for Laird to call the correct pitch. I'm just stressing that it would be foolish to think that a guy like Laird could turn aroung pitchers performances just by his pitch selection. I mean last year the Rangers ERA when he was catching was 5.21 http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/player/index.php?lastName=laird but I would attribute that to the Rangers really crappy pitching staff as opposed to Laird's pitch selection.

schmidty622
12-04-2008, 10:32 PM
Why would you want to go with Laird and have to pay 3 Million in arbitration...

Go for Salty...

Salty is terrible behind the plate. Where would he play?

Kingspoint
12-04-2008, 11:07 PM
I wouldn't give Thompson or Bailey for Laird under any scenario. Thompson's going to be much, much, more valuable to the Major League club over the next 7 seasons than Laird will be.

Steviejoe
12-04-2008, 11:57 PM
Today i would trade Thompson for Laird,tomorrow i don't know.The way this game goes you never what's going to happen.Trade Thompson he becomes a star,keep him Laird becomes on.dun if you do,durn if you don't.Hittin .285 in 2008 was great for Laird,but do we remember a guy named David Ross.His first year in cincy was a hit,2008 released in midseason.i know i can't compare Laird to Ross,but think about it.Thompson may be the next Volquez,but who know's 7 years down the road.

CRedsLarkin11
12-05-2008, 12:03 AM
I just don't see how a guy who we want to platoon with Hanigan is worth anything of value. I'm also not sold on his '08, his career numbers don't look as promising. I hope they don't do it.

Steviejoe
12-05-2008, 12:15 AM
Honestly i would like to give Hanigan the job.Find a reasonable backup catcher.What was wrong with Javier Valenten,never seen anyone speak of him much in these chatters.He done a desent job,just don't carry three catchers,and what about Castillo acquired in the Dunn trade.He can play anywhere even announce if you need him to.I belive he will be the sleeper this year on the reds.

TheBigLebowski
12-05-2008, 08:52 AM
Yeah, I don't get all this Laird hype either. He's a decent catcher but certainly nothing special. I would cringe if we were to deal away a Thompson or Roenicke for him, and I'd begin to wet my bed at night if we dealt Bailey.

redsfandan
12-05-2008, 09:20 AM
i'd rather have bard. (i really need to check why walt likes trades over FA's)

salty would cost more in prospects and, if he's lucky, will end up as a poor mans vmart. imo, defense should be the priority behind the plate and unfortunately we're not in the AL so we couldn't stick him at dh.

Emin3mShady07, i've been impressed by alot of your posts but catcher is one of the positions where you have to factor in defense a little more into the equation. of course a catcher like laird alone can't "turn aroung pitchers performances just by his pitch selection" but a plus defensive catcher helps the pitcher/team alot more than a poor or average one.

Weasle 25
12-05-2008, 09:49 AM
Laid might be a younger catcher and maybe he would surprise but I don't think he is the best option. I would go after someone else if the that ment getting a older, smarter catcher. Not saying hes dumb,you know what I mean. I thought that Bako was going to be fine last year but he turned into a pain to watch. The Reds should jump out to Ivan Rodriguez in my opinion.

UK Reds Fan
12-05-2008, 10:16 AM
I guess where does Wilkin Castillo factor into this argument?

Is the guy not a catcher that is a perfect platoon with Hannigan?

I just hate to give up much for an bleh catcher, who puts up below mediocre offensive numbers playing in Arlington...when we have about similar production in our own system...additionally the guy is going to make 2-3million as his arbitration numbers rise.

Pass on this crap and spend your money on bigger fish instead of stockpiling goldfish.

joe51391
12-05-2008, 10:27 AM
Laird would be a huge mistake I would offer Bailey, Thompson, Frazier and Roenike for Elvis Andrus and Taylor Teagarden or Max Ramirez and if they would throw him in Nelson Cruz. Laird is not who they should be focused on at all and Salty can't play defence TT boy and Ramirez are the real deal and I would love to see one of them be in a Reds uniform next year splitting time with Hanigan then taking over next year once he gets his feet wet. Then we get our SS of the future in Andrus. The trade would work wonders for both teams and could put both over the top in the coming years.

Bip Roberts
12-05-2008, 10:55 AM
I guess where does Wilkin Castillo factor into this argument?

Is the guy not a catcher that is a perfect platoon with Hannigan?

I just hate to give up much for an bleh catcher, who puts up below mediocre offensive numbers playing in Arlington...when we have about similar production in our own system...additionally the guy is going to make 2-3million as his arbitration numbers rise.

Pass on this crap and spend your money on bigger fish instead of stockpiling goldfish.

Dusty saw him in a bullpen session and said he sucks. That means dusty has seen him once and will never change his mind on the matter. Castillo is now just a pinch runner and a late inning left field replacement.

bounty37h
12-05-2008, 11:01 AM
[QUOTE=redsfandan;1771927]i'd rather have bard. (i really need to check why walt likes trades over FA's)

Walt commented on this last week, saying FA prices were driven up so high, would rather go trade route and not have to pay the inflated numbers now-esp for this years FA class. Of course, those trades then can still jack up down the road when their contract expires, but thats a beast for another day I guess....

Emin3mShady07
12-05-2008, 11:18 AM
Emin3mShady07, i've been impressed by alot of your posts but catcher is one of the positions where you have to factor in defense a little more into the equation. of course a catcher like laird alone can't "turn aroung pitchers performances just by his pitch selection" but a plus defensive catcher helps the pitcher/team alot more than a poor or average one.

This is a valid point no doubt, a strong defensive catcher can really help a team out, but (now I don't know much about Hanigan) is Laird really that much of a defensive upgrade over what the reds have to give up prospects and 3+ million just to get a platoon partner for Hanigan? I wouldn't say so. I mean he seems just average at blocking balls in the dirt http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/200...-block-percent and he doesn't seem to have a canon for an arm so I just don't think Laird is worth all of the resources it would take to acquire him. I'm not talking anything away from strong defensive catchers, I'm just saying that Laird's defense is nothing to get excited about or give up specs and $$ for

Hondo
12-05-2008, 11:44 AM
I guess where does Wilkin Castillo factor into this argument?

Is the guy not a catcher that is a perfect platoon with Hannigan?

I just hate to give up much for an bleh catcher, who puts up below mediocre offensive numbers playing in Arlington...when we have about similar production in our own system...additionally the guy is going to make 2-3million as his arbitration numbers rise.

Pass on this crap and spend your money on bigger fish instead of stockpiling goldfish.

Me and you sir, are on the same page...

flash
12-05-2008, 12:17 PM
There is no way the Reds should be pursuing this deal. Laird may have experience, but Hanigan is as good or better than him in ever catagory. this year. What the Reds need is a back-up which can be obtained in rule five with Skelton and or Pilittere. If the Reds want to trade with the Rangers it needs to be for Nixon.

laxtonto
12-05-2008, 12:33 PM
There is no way the Reds should be pursuing this deal. Laird may have experience, but Hanigan is as good or better than him in ever catagory. this year. What the Reds need is a back-up which can be obtained in rule five with Skelton and or Pilittere. If the Reds want to trade with the Rangers it needs to be for Nixon.

Who?

I am fairly sure there isn't a prospect in the Ranger's organization that in named Nixon.

redhawk61
12-05-2008, 01:48 PM
Per MLBTR.com: According to Jon Paul Morosi, the Tigers have become more aggressive in discussions for Rangers catcher Gerald Laird.

GO TIGERS! GO!

ChatterRed
12-05-2008, 03:39 PM
I wouldn't give Thompson or Bailey for Laird under any scenario. Thompson's going to be much, much, more valuable to the Major League club over the next 7 seasons than Laird will be.

I disagree. I think Thompson is and will be injury prone his whole career.

Hondo
12-05-2008, 04:10 PM
I think Laird is not worth 3 Million or 2 Million, maybe 1 Million and he is a back up Catcher... this is not the move this team needs to make when it can sign Ivan Rodriguez for 1 year at 2 to 2.5 Million... To back up Hanigan...

redsfandan
12-05-2008, 04:53 PM
i'd actually consider irod if he'd only take $2 million to be a backup. too bad that's not realistic. man hondo, with some of the stuff you throw out there i have to wonder what your dreams are like when you're asleep.

Hondo
12-05-2008, 04:58 PM
i'd actually consider irod if he'd only take $2 million to be a backup. too bad that's not realistic. man hondo, with some of the stuff you throw out there i have to wonder what your dreams are like when you're asleep.

Ok, so whats he going to sign for? 5 Million, 8 Million

Throw something out there... Oh and Johnny Bench Loves the guy so yeah... He could be a Red.

redsfandan
12-05-2008, 05:15 PM
hell if i know what he'll eventually make but he made over $12 milion last year. he'll definitely make less but probably not $10 million less.

johnny bench loves him. ok and so? hell i like him too. that doesn't mean he'll be a red. imo, he's a 1st ballot hall of famer but he's 37 now. catchers usually don't age that well when they approach 40 and he's just not the same catcher he used to be. if we could have him for only a couple million i'd take that. but i bet someone will pay more.

Hondo
12-05-2008, 05:30 PM
hell if i know what he'll eventually make but he made over $12 milion last year. he'll definitely make less but probably not $10 million less.

johnny bench loves him. ok and so? hell i like him too. that doesn't mean he'll be a red. imo, he's a 1st ballot hall of famer but he's 37 now. catchers usually don't age that well when they approach 40 and he's just not the same catcher he used to be. if we could have him for only a couple million i'd take that. but i bet someone will pay more.

It is for a Back up role... to Ryan Hanigan...

Not asking for 140 Games out of him...

Bip Roberts
12-05-2008, 05:41 PM
Thompson would be ok trade bait but not for Liard. I'd have trouble finding the right deal for him. He could be injury prone but hes still young and was coming off arm problems from before it isnt like he was destroyed last year when he was kinda shut down.

Hondo
12-05-2008, 05:44 PM
Why does anyone even want Laird?

I don't get it... Hanigan is basically a similar player at a lesser cost and not trading any prospects...

Bip Roberts
12-05-2008, 05:50 PM
I really dont want Liard. I have some decent faith in Hanigan to be an average catcher through his prime years.

Kingspoint
12-05-2008, 06:13 PM
i'd rather have bard. (i really need to check why walt likes trades over FA's)

salty would cost more in prospects and, if he's lucky, will end up as a poor mans vmart. imo, defense should be the priority behind the plate and unfortunately we're not in the AL so we couldn't stick him at dh.

Emin3mShady07, i've been impressed by alot of your posts but catcher is one of the positions where you have to factor in defense a little more into the equation. of course a catcher like laird alone can't "turn aroung pitchers performances just by his pitch selection" but a plus defensive catcher helps the pitcher/team alot more than a poor or average one.
While I disagree with you about the value of Laird vs. Roenicke/Thomspon/Bailey, I not only agree with you about factoring in the defensive qualities of a catcher, but I think it's 90% of what's important for this team. We have a lot of young pitchers. Our team defense still needs more improving even though it's improved a ton by getting rid of Dunn and Junior. I just don't care one iota what our Catcher's bring offensively to the game. I want them to at least grade out at "B" defensively and how they handle pitchers is part of that defensive grade. As a result, I don't know anything about any catchers out there as far as judging how they do in those areas. I have to trust that our scouts and Walt Jockety will come up with the right guy. Walt has a history of going that direction, so I'm confident in his decision in this area. I'm willing to give up a Roenicke plus another prospect for this, but not a Thompson or Bailey.

redsfandan
12-05-2008, 06:21 PM
yep i agree defense 1st at catcher although i don't think i've mentioned roenicke, thompson, or bailey in this thread so i don't understand what you meant by that part.

Slyder
12-05-2008, 08:26 PM
Whats the book say on Jason Kendall? I still believe he'd be better than Laird if were only looking at maybe 30-60 games and some pinch hit appearances. Handled a very young staff with Milwaukee the last couple years with some success.

redsfandan
12-05-2008, 08:29 PM
kendall's option for '09 vested so he's not available unless via trade. texas has 4 catchers. don't think milwaukee is so lucky. i bet they'll keep him around for now.

Slyder
12-05-2008, 08:54 PM
kendall's option for '09 vested so he's not available unless via trade. texas has 4 catchers. don't think milwaukee is so lucky. i bet they'll keep him around for now.

Wasn't sure if Kendall's option had been picked up so thank you for the clarification. I still hope the Reds dont give up any pieces of value for a guy who its pretty assuredly known what he'll bring and will cost more than a mil after arby. Let Detroit have him. Look elsewhere. Whats this say of the Reds view of Castillo? He would certainly sound like a guy who could be the backup catcher and still play where ever else and just throw on the catchers gear if needed.

Hondo
12-05-2008, 10:53 PM
Wasn't sure if Kendall's option had been picked up so thank you for the clarification. I still hope the Reds dont give up any pieces of value for a guy who its pretty assuredly known what he'll bring and will cost more than a mil after arby. Let Detroit have him. Look elsewhere. Whats this say of the Reds view of Castillo? He would certainly sound like a guy who could be the backup catcher and still play where ever else and just throw on the catchers gear if needed.

Why trade anyone when you can sign C Ivan Rodrigez to a 1 year deal and not give up 1 prospect...

Why is Walt obsessed with a Cathcer with 1-3 years of service time... Besides the fact that he has control of the player for atleast 3 more years...

Kingspoint
12-06-2008, 07:55 PM
yep i agree defense 1st at catcher although i don't think i've mentioned roenicke, thompson, or bailey in this thread so i don't understand what you meant by that part.
Not you personally about those players, but that's what the thread's about in general.

Kingspoint
12-06-2008, 07:57 PM
Have patience with Thompson, ChatterRed. He's made a remarkable recovery from a devastating injury. His injury last year was from overuse, not from anything he did to his body or arm. He just needed to be shut down. He'd pitched too many innings compared to how many he'd pitched each of the last 4 seasons. He'll be good to go for 175-190 innings this year. I really expect 8 wins from him this year at the big league level.

TheNext44
12-06-2008, 08:13 PM
Very true and I do realize that it was indeed a bit of an overstatement. The chapter, and I only point it out because you mention his name, was "Is Mike Matheny a catching Genius?" but anyways, my point is that even if Gerald Laird called a "great" game, it is more on the pitchers to execute than it is for Laird to call the correct pitch. I'm just stressing that it would be foolish to think that a guy like Laird could turn aroung pitchers performances just by his pitch selection. I mean last year the Rangers ERA when he was catching was 5.21 http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/player/index.php?lastName=laird but I would attribute that to the Rangers really crappy pitching staff as opposed to Laird's pitch selection.

I actually agree with you that calling a game is way overrated. Basically, it's high and away, low and outside and change speeds. And as you stated, most importantly the pitcher is the one with the ball, so it really is always his game to call and execute.

Still, I think there is a lot more to handling pitchers than just callilng the game. A good catcher will know how to keep his pitcher focused, calm him down when he gets agitated, reve him up when he gets down. But most importantly, a good catcher gains the pitchers confidence, both by being on the same wavelength has him and by being able to block every pitch in the dirt. The first part lets the pitcher concentrate on just executing and the second lets the pitcher throw any pitch at anytime, even with runners on base. All of that can really help a pitcher, especially a young pitcher.

That said, I have no idea if Laird is any good at any of that, although you showed he wasn't special at blocking pitches. And anyway, I think Hanigan showed he is good enough that the Reds should not be wasting resources on picking up another catcher. Any decent back up should be fine.

Kingspoint
12-06-2008, 09:07 PM
Pitchers are quirky individuals....space-cadets. They need handling. More former catchers become managers because of their abilities to handle players. Kevin Costner's portrayal of the Catcher/Pitcher relationship isn't far from the truth.

TheNext44
12-06-2008, 09:14 PM
Pitchers are quirky individuals....space-cadets. They need handling. More former catchers become managers because of their abilities to handle players. Kevin Costner's portrayal of the Catcher/Pitcher relationship isn't far from the truth.

My favorite story about how a catcher can handle a pitcher is about some pitcher on the Reds staff when Johnny Bench was the catcher. The pitcher kept wanting to throw his fastball, and Bench kept telling him that it wasn't good that day. Bench finally gave in and callled a fastball, then to prove his point, dropped his glove and caught it with his bare hands. After that the pitcher listened to Bench the rest of the game.

Emin3mShady07
12-07-2008, 01:17 AM
Why trade anyone when you can sign C Ivan Rodrigez to a 1 year deal and not give up 1 prospect...

Why is Walt obsessed with a Cathcer with 1-3 years of service time... Besides the fact that he has control of the player for atleast 3 more years...

The why trade anyone is a good point in the above, but Ivan Rodriguez is horrible, potentially even worse than Gerald Laird. I-Rod's high OPS since he quit juicing is in the .750s and he is trending downward very, very badly http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/player/index.php?playerId=1275&firstName=Ivan&lastName=Rodriguez I would stay away from him at all costs.

redsfandan
12-07-2008, 05:18 AM
While I disagree with you about the value of Laird vs. Roenicke/Thomspon/Bailey, ...


Not you personally about those players, but that's what the thread's about in general.

not to belabor the point kingspoint, and maybe it's just me, but i thought the thread was simply about the reds possible interest in laird. that's all. obviously, the value of roenicke, thompson, bailey (or any other players) vs laird plays into the equation but, as i said before, since i hadn't even mentioned any of those players except for laird it seems like that was just a poor choice of words. anyway, i'm done with that so i'll get back to the discussion about catchers ...

i do agree with the point/sentiment made by kingspoint and thenext44. pitchers are drafted for the arms that are attached to them. not for their brains. even a pitcher known for his smarts like maddux relied on his catchers. alot depends on the pitchers ability to pitch well and they should be open to any help be it from a catcher, coach, an infielder, a former player, whoever. alot of pitchers tend to think at times they can just throw a fastball up there but that doesn't make you a pitcher. the catcher will know better than anyone how a pitcher is that day. a catchers #1 responsibility is threefold: to call a good game, to handle the throws/runners well, and to help the pitcher focus so he can pitch well. offense is secondary.

windycitybuck
12-07-2008, 01:57 PM
I think Hank Blalock should be part of the Laird trade. I honestly wouldn't trade for Laird alone. Put Blalock at 3rd move EE to left and call it a day.

ChatterRed
12-07-2008, 02:36 PM
I really don't want to give up much for Laird, who is essentially a backup catcher.

If the market drops for Pudge, I'd be just as happy signing him to a 2 year deal and finding out along the way how Hanigan produces.

I think this team needs to look at signing players for 2 years in free agency and trying to leave our farm system intact. We very well could develop the right players to fill our needs in a couple of years. I hate to see ownership go overboard, when we're on the verge.

It's like one quote I read about whichever team gets Peavy will be looking at a long rebuilding process (because they'll have to sell the farm system to get him).

I don't want the Reds to do that.

Kingspoint
12-07-2008, 05:39 PM
My favorite story about how a catcher can handle a pitcher is about some pitcher on the Reds staff when Johnny Bench was the catcher. The pitcher kept wanting to throw his fastball, and Bench kept telling him that it wasn't good that day. Bench finally gave in and callled a fastball, then to prove his point, dropped his glove and caught it with his bare hands. After that the pitcher listened to Bench the rest of the game.

Great story.

Weasle 25
12-07-2008, 10:48 PM
What about Kurt Suzuski from the A's there always lookin for young pitchers. We could give them possibly Bailey and Janish since there after Furcal at short. Who knows though Suzuski might not pan out but he seems like he a good young player that hasn't hit his peak, just thrown that out there.

redsfandan
12-08-2008, 08:20 AM
... I think this team needs to look at signing players for 2 years in free agency and trying to leave our farm system intact. We very well could develop the right players to fill our needs in a couple of years. I hate to see ownership go overboard, when we're on the verge.

It's like one quote I read about whichever team gets Peavy will be looking at a long rebuilding process (because they'll have to sell the farm system to get him).

I don't want the Reds to do that.

for the most part i agree. but if had to make a trade i'd make hermida an exception for the reasons i posted in the other thread.

tommycash
12-08-2008, 08:41 AM
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081208&content_id=3705662&vkey=hotstove2008&fext=.jsp

Well this thread seems to be near an end as the Tigers got Laird instead for two pitching prospects.

SarasotaFan
12-08-2008, 08:48 AM
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081208&content_id=3705662&vkey=hotstove2008&fext=.jsp

Well this thread seems to be near an end as the Tigers got Laird instead for two pitching prospects.darn, so we still have Bailey in the system ? :(

tommycash
12-08-2008, 11:33 AM
darn, so we still have Bailey in the system ? :(

Maybe not if you believe the Dye trade is going through. I think Dye is a better trade off for Bailey than Laird for next year's team.

wojo1025
12-08-2008, 11:52 AM
Per MLBtraderumors.com

The Red Sox have talked to the Indians about Kelly Shoppach; the Reds like him as well. The Indians would want a big league second baseman, third baseman, or closer back for Shoppach. The Indians have not entertained offers for Victor Martinez.

Emin3mShady07
12-08-2008, 12:44 PM
Per MLBtraderumors.com

The Red Sox have talked to the Indians about Kelly Shoppach; the Reds like him as well. The Indians would want a big league second baseman, third baseman, or closer back for Shoppach. The Indians have not entertained offers for Victor Martinez.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/player/index.php?lastName=shoppach

Shoppach was good last year, but he had a BABIP roughly .50 points higher than what it should have been which means it is likely his .865 OPS of last year will regress to around .780 - .800, but that is still very good for a catcher. The problem is do the Reds give up one of their few defensive strengths in Brandon Phillips for Shoppach? I wouldn't recommend it, but if the Indians were willing to take EE then I think the deal would be a good one for the Reds. There are certainly more FA replacements available at 3B than at C, and maybe the Reds could pull off a deal for another third baseman in Adrian Beltre or someone else. I doubt the Indians would be able to sustain Cordero's contract so I think he is out of the picture. It really depends on what the Indians ask in return, because the reds cannot afford to make their defense even worse IMO.

schmidty622
12-08-2008, 12:52 PM
Is Shoppach that much better than Hanigan? I don't think so.

wojo1025
12-08-2008, 01:42 PM
Ramon Hernandez Contract Exchange?
By Tim Dierkes [December 8 at 12:21pm CST]
According to Roch Kubatko of MASN Online, one of the teams interested in catcher Ramon Hernandez would like to swap contracts. The team would send the Orioles a utility guy who can play the infield and outfield.

Kubatko goes on to note that the Reds and Astros are looking for catching. Connecting the dots, Kubatko may have been talking about Ryan Freel above. Hernandez has $9MM left on his contract, while Freel has $4MM.

laxtonto
12-08-2008, 01:47 PM
Stay Far Far Away from Schoppach...

38% K rate, average defender, career year at 29. Career OBP, even after a career year still sits at .323.

You could get that out of Zaun as a FA instead of dealing trading chips.

Red in Atl
12-08-2008, 02:24 PM
My favorite story about how a catcher can handle a pitcher is about some pitcher on the Reds staff when Johnny Bench was the catcher. The pitcher kept wanting to throw his fastball, and Bench kept telling him that it wasn't good that day. Bench finally gave in and callled a fastball, then to prove his point, dropped his glove and caught it with his bare hands. After that the pitcher listened to Bench the rest of the game.

It's stories like this that absolutely make baseball my favorite sport. Hands down, no comparison.

BTW - was that pitcher Jack Billingham?

Emin3mShady07
12-08-2008, 02:37 PM
Stay Far Far Away from Schoppach...

38% K rate, average defender, career year at 29. Career OBP, even after a career year still sits at .323.

You could get that out of Zaun as a FA instead of dealing trading chips.

Shoppach has anhilated Left handed pitching and IMO would be a great platoon partner for Hanigan. He has a career .373 OBP and a .983 OPS against lefties which is obviously very very good. And he has always hit lefties really well.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=shoppke01

laxtonto
12-08-2008, 02:53 PM
Shoppach has anhilated Left handed pitching and IMO would be a great platoon partner for Hanigan. He has a career .373 OBP and a .983 OPS against lefties which is obviously very very good. And he has always hit lefties really well.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=shoppke01

At what cost though? Cleveland is asking for a package slightly less to what Texas wants.... For Teagarden or Saltimachia.

You can get a platoon bat in FA. If I am going to unload major prospects, I would prefer a everyday young starting C.

Az. Reds Fan
12-08-2008, 07:56 PM
The D'backs are now offering Chris Snyder around...I'd love to see the Reds make a play for him, moreso than Shoppach or Hernandez. Obviously, Josh Byrnes and Jocketty have a history. Snyder is one catcher I'd deal Bailey for.

7:09 p.m. — D-backs look to deal Snyder
Arizona is ready to make a change at catcher. The Diamondbacks are trying to trade Chris Snyder, this season's starter, to clear the way for Miguel Montero.

If the Diamondbacks are successful, they would bring in a low-paid veteran such as Gregg Zaun as the combination backup-mentor to the 25-year-old Montero.

Montero appeared in 70 games for Arizona this season, batting .255 with five home runs and 18 RBIs as he split time with Snyder, who appeared in 115 games and hit .237. --Gerry Fraley

wojo1025
12-09-2008, 01:36 PM
TUESDAY, 12:30pm: Seems that a deal for Hernandez is close, though Roch Kubatko says the Brewers jumped into the mix. Kubatko still thinks Hernandez will be traded to the Reds.