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RedLegSuperStar
12-08-2008, 12:03 PM
MLBTR.com

Reds have interest in the Indians catcher. The Indians are looking for a second baseman, third baseman, or closer in any deal.

cincy09
12-08-2008, 12:06 PM
Wonder what we would have to give up to get him?

Homer Bailey
12-08-2008, 12:06 PM
Shoppach/Fransisco/Prospect for BP?

OnBaseMachine
12-08-2008, 12:08 PM
Shoppach is a good target. He's a good defender, still relatively young (turns 29 in April) and he can hit.

JaxRed
12-08-2008, 12:09 PM
Can we dump Cordero?

Falls City Beer
12-08-2008, 12:11 PM
I doubt Phillips brings back Shoppach straight up.

osuceltic
12-08-2008, 12:13 PM
Encarnacion for Shoppach makes some sense for both teams.

Falls City Beer
12-08-2008, 12:14 PM
Encarnacion for Shoppach makes some sense for both teams.

Except the Indians. They're not going to tolerate his garbage at third.

Kc61
12-08-2008, 12:17 PM
Roenicke and Keppinger?

Weathers, Roenicke and Keppinger for Shoppach and a decent prospect?

osuceltic
12-08-2008, 12:21 PM
Except the Indians. They're not going to tolerate his garbage at third.

You're right. The Reds don't have anyone good enough to trade for the immortal Kelly Shoppach. And the razor-sharp Indians are much too smart to want Encarnacion.

Seriously ... the sky-is-falling hyperbole is getting ridiculous. I'm not a huge EE fan at all, but he's not garbage and he does have some value. This team is playing Jonny Peralta at SS for crying out loud. I think they have looked the other way on defense at times.

flyer85
12-08-2008, 12:22 PM
have always liked Shoppach since his days in the Sox minors. Good plate discipline with some pop while playing half his games in a pitchers park(Jacobs).

I like him a lot better than Laird.

Falls City Beer
12-08-2008, 12:23 PM
Can we dump Cordero?

Cordero + one-third of his remaining salary for Shoppach. Done.

Falls City Beer
12-08-2008, 12:24 PM
You're right. The Reds don't have anyone good enough to trade for the immortal Kelly Shoppach. And the razor-sharp Indians are much too smart to want Encarnacion.

Seriously ... the sky-is-falling hyperbole is getting ridiculous. I'm not a huge EE fan at all, but he's not garbage and he does have some value. This team is playing Jonny Peralta at SS for crying out loud. I think they have looked the other way on defense at times.

Anyone with two eyes can see EdE's not a third baseman. Now if Cleveland wants to get creative and put him in the OF, then maybe a deal can be struck, but I can assure they don't want the guy at third.

Phillips + Roenicke might do it though.

redsmetz
12-08-2008, 12:25 PM
Roenicke and Keppinger?

Weathers, Roenicke and Keppinger for Shoppach and a decent prospect?

While Weathers has agreed to arbitration, a new contract has not been agreed to either through arbitration or negotiation, so I don't think he can be traded. Likewise, somewhere in the back of my mind, it seems to me a player signed as a free agent can't be traded until after the season starts, but I can't find a reference to that.

Kc61
12-08-2008, 12:29 PM
While Weathers has agreed to arbitration, a new contract has not been agreed to either through arbitration or negotiation, so I don't think he can be traded. Likewise, somewhere in the back of my mind, it seems to me a player signed as a free agent can't be traded until after the season starts, but I can't find a reference to that.


I think Weathers is considered a signed player and, if traded, he can arbitrate with the new team. Not sure, though.

Heath
12-08-2008, 12:35 PM
Cordero + one-third of his remaining salary for Shoppach. Done.

Well, the Indians are looking for a closer.

I'd get rid of all of Cordero's salary.

OnBaseMachine
12-08-2008, 12:35 PM
Anyone with two eyes can see EdE's not a third baseman. Now if Cleveland wants to get creative and put him in the OF, then maybe a deal can be struck, but I can assure they don't want the guy at third.

Phillips + Roenicke might do it though.

And anyone with two eyes can see that Jhonny Peralta's not a shortstop, yet the Indians continue to play him there.

I wouldn't deal Phillips + Roenicke for Shoppach. That deal would severely weaken the middle infield defense.

wheels
12-08-2008, 12:40 PM
I don't think Cleveland wants Phillips back, either.

I'd be fine with EE for Shoppach deal, but I might agree that Cleveland would want a little more.

Wouldn't hurt to start the offer with Edwin and see where it leads.

I have a hard time believing the Tribe would want to deal off their catcher considering Martinez isn't getting any younger and has been nicked up pretty bad lately.

Interesting to say the least, though.

Falls City Beer
12-08-2008, 12:41 PM
I don't think Cleveland wants Phillips back, either.

I'd be fine with EE for Shoppach deal, but I might agree that Cleveland would want a little more.

Wouldn't hurt to start the offer with Edwin and see where it leads.

I have a hard time believing the Tribe would want to deal off their catcher considering Martinez isn't getting any younger and has been nicked up pretty bad lately.

Interesting to say the least, though.

I don't think they'll deal Shoppach either.

REDREAD
12-08-2008, 12:44 PM
yeah, I agree that Cleveland wants no part in getting Phillips back. Not a knock on Phillip's talent, but there's bad blood there.

Extremely doubtful that Cleveland wants Weathers as part of a package, when they could've signed Weathers as a FA days ago.

Not sure they'd be interested in Cordero. They try to fill closer on the cheap. I can't recall them ever going after a high priced closer, although maybe I'm wrong. Still don't think they are interested in the risk of 3 years of Cordero at that price though. Plus, there's Cordero's no trade complication.

Is anyone willing to give up prospects for Shoppach? Or Burton? I think that's what it would take to get the deal done.

TRF
12-08-2008, 12:57 PM
Anyone with two eyes can see EdE's not a third baseman. Now if Cleveland wants to get creative and put him in the OF, then maybe a deal can be struck, but I can assure they don't want the guy at third.

Phillips + Roenicke might do it though.

I have two eyes. I think he'll be fine at third. I also think he's going to OPS north of .880 this year.

corkedbat
12-08-2008, 12:58 PM
EdE for Soppach, then sign Casey Blake for a couple of years as a stopgap.

PuffyPig
12-08-2008, 12:59 PM
FWIW, Shoppach's career BABIP is about .067 points higher than you would expect based on his line drive rate.

You seldom see such a low line drive rate (16.8%) with a high BABIP (.355). The exceptions might be someone like Ichiro who beats out a ton of hits. But his difference is only .026 based on expectation (I've added .120 to the line drive rate to get expected BABIP).

Something has to give.

*BaseClogger*
12-08-2008, 01:40 PM
EE + Valaika for Shoppach + Andy Marte please...

Heath
12-08-2008, 01:49 PM
There's a message board that I frequent because of my football fandom.

They have an Indians board. I read their web boards.

They want Harang = Shoppach + Prospect. They also wonder about Nefi Soto and Paul Janish.

RedEye
12-08-2008, 01:49 PM
Anyone with two eyes can see EdE's not a third baseman. Now if Cleveland wants to get creative and put him in the OF, then maybe a deal can be struck, but I can assure they don't want the guy at third.

Phillips + Roenicke might do it though.

They'd expect a GG 2nd baseman and a prospect for a backup catcher? Really?

RedEye
12-08-2008, 01:50 PM
There's a message board that I frequent because of my football fandom.

They have an Indians board. I read their web boards.

They want Harang = Shoppach + Prospect. They also wonder about Nefi Soto and Paul Janish.

Seems they are just about as irrational as we are!

*BaseClogger*
12-08-2008, 01:53 PM
They'd expect a GG 2nd baseman and a prospect for a backup catcher? Really?

He's actually one of the better catchers in MLB...

RANDY IN INDY
12-08-2008, 02:05 PM
I don't think Shoppach is a proven commodity. It would be tough for me to give up the farm for one good season.

corkedbat
12-08-2008, 02:17 PM
There's a message board that I frequent because of my football fandom.

They have an Indians board. I read their web boards.

They want Harang = Shoppach + Prospect. They also wonder about Nefi Soto and Paul Janish.

Tell them we'd consider Soto, but Janish is untouchable, then dicker for a while longer and then sy, "Oh OK, you've worn us down, we'll give you Janish, but you'll have to kick in another top prospect." Shrewd. :beerme:

RedEye
12-08-2008, 02:51 PM
He's actually one of the better catchers in MLB...

Defensively. Right?

Edit: Okay, I just looked him up and realized he had a pretty good offensive season last year in VMart's absence.

Anyway, I've generally been an advocate of trading BP, so I would think BP for Shoppach straight-up would be a fair deal. My only worry would be that the team would then have ZERO up-the-middle defense other than catcher. Isn't dealing BP for a C like robbing Peter to pay Paul?

Ltlabner
12-08-2008, 03:02 PM
I doubt Phillips brings back Shoppach straight up.

Huh?


YEAR NAME AGE POS PA EqA OBP SLG VORP RAR RAP
2008 Kelly Shoppach 28 c 403 .293 .348 .517 28.3 27.8 19.1
2008 Brandon Phillips 27 2b 609 .257 .312 .442 16.4 17.2 -5.4

YEAR NAME AGE POS PA EqA OBP SLG VORP RAR RAP
2007 Kelly Shoppach 27 c 177 .257 .310 .472 8.3 4.9 2.3
2007 Brandon Phillips 26 2b 702 .270 .331 .485 37.2 30.1 8.8

YEAR NAME AGE POS PA OBP SLG VORP
2006 Kelly Shoppach 26 c 120 .297 .382 -0.6
2006 Brandon Phillips 25 2b 587 .324 .427 22.6

Sure, in 2008 Shoppach bested BPhill but had 200 less PAs. Would he have continued to hold the edge with every day play? And BPhills 2007 campagin smoked Shoppach because he did it over an entire season while Shoppachs numbers were lessor and over a smaller sample. Same same for 2006.

Thats to say nothing about defense. Shoppach is good, no doubt, but BPhill is better.

And here's a blurb from BP about Shpppach after the 2007 season.


At this point, Shoppach is officially on the backup catcher career path. He`s a pretty good defender, has decent power, doesn`t hit for average, and strikes out a lot. He`ll get a couple of everyday assignments during his career due to positional scarcity, but in the end he`ll have played thirteen years for eight different teams.

So to say BPhil wouldn't bring a backup catcher in trade return is innacurate. Shoppach is good, and I'd like to have him around. But if you can't swing a reserve catcher for a Gold Glove second baseman with a 30-30 season in the recient past you should hang up your GM spurs.

Cleveland might not want to bring BPhil back into the fold, or the fit might not be there for both teams or the money might not make sense. But in terms of "trade value" to say Brandon Phillips can't bring in a reserve catcher is silly.

Bill
12-09-2008, 02:10 AM
I've been mentioning Shoppach as a target for a couple years now including a couple months ago when it became clear the Indians would look at leveraging his good season to fill a need. Of course the time to target him was last off-season when Shapiro was willing to include him in a deal for Bay that fell through.

Krusty
12-09-2008, 02:34 AM
Of course the Indians are looking for the same thing the Reds have been.....bullpen help.

I still think that Ramon Hernandez for Ryan Freel deal sounds like a better one.

Vada Pinson Fan
12-09-2008, 07:00 AM
I don't think Shoppach is a proven commodity. It would be tough for me to give up the farm for one good season.

I agree with Randy. Shoppach has had the one good year this past season. David Ross had that same one good year here and then not much else. Ross had a fine throwing arm and a nice percentage of thrown out attempted base stealers but would you have offered the above named players if Ross wasn't a Red at that time? Shoppach will be 29 at the end of April. Not old but not established for that age either. Talk of including the likes of BP, or Roenicke or any of the other highly overpaid/overpriced proposals isn't sound.

Scrap Irony
12-09-2008, 09:55 AM
Cordero sounds like a good deal both ways. The Indians really need a closer, but his cost is prohibitive.

RANDY IN INDY
12-09-2008, 10:15 AM
I was told that Cordero has a no-trade clause this season, and a limited no-trade clause next season.

NJReds
12-09-2008, 10:26 AM
Cordero sounds like a good deal both ways. The Indians really need a closer, but his cost is prohibitive.

And prices may be coming way down. Listening to ESPN Radio in NY last night, and speculation was that KRod will get a 3-year/$36M offer from the Mets. If he turns it down, he may only get a 1-yr deal for the money that he wants. Teams are frugal right now. Steve Phillips said the Mets should lower their offer to KRod to 3/30M because their bidding against themselves right now.

Even if he could be dealt, Cordero's cost would be extremely prohibitive in a trade. He's older and not as good as KRod.

membengal
12-09-2008, 10:38 AM
I was told that Cordero has a no-trade clause this season, and a limited no-trade clause next season.

If he does, he can waive it, right? (I'm asking, I don't know)

RANDY IN INDY
12-09-2008, 10:43 AM
I would think he could waive it, but not sure.

camisadelgolf
12-09-2008, 10:46 AM
While Weathers has agreed to arbitration, a new contract has not been agreed to either through arbitration or negotiation, so I don't think he can be traded. Likewise, somewhere in the back of my mind, it seems to me a player signed as a free agent can't be traded until after the season starts, but I can't find a reference to that.

I'll search for a link, but I believe the player can't be traded until May 1st.