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NorrisHopper30
12-09-2008, 02:14 PM
Seems like he's a lock to get traded to the Reds or Brewers, and I hope we get him. He was born in Venezuala and I bet he would mold well with our young Hispanic pitchers and he's had a great career and wouldn't really hurt us if we can get the O's to pay some of the salary.

TheBigLebowski
12-09-2008, 02:52 PM
Looks like he's headed our way for Freel and a prospect.

texasdave
12-09-2008, 02:58 PM
If/When this deal goes down the Reds will have more catchers (4) on their 40-man roster than outfielders (3). And then there were three....Bruce, Dickerson and Hopper. If Dye is out of the picture then who is in?

RedLakerFan24
12-09-2008, 03:01 PM
1:56pm: John Perrotto believes a Hernandez for Freel deal will be announced today
From MlbTradeRumors

At least we got something for Freel

CarolinaRedleg
12-09-2008, 03:43 PM
Rosenthal says it's a done deal:

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8916168/LIVE:-Tuesday-updates-from-winter-meetings


3:28 p.m. Reds, O's agree on trade

The Reds have reached preliminary agreement with the Orioles on a trade that will send catcher Ramon Hernandez to Cincinnati for outfielder Ryan Freel and two prospects, according to a major-league source.

The deal is pending the approval of the commissioner's office, because it involves a cash transaction of more than $1 million.

On Monday, major-league sources said the deal would not be completed unless the Orioles picked up a significant portion of Hernandez's remaining salary.

Hernandez is owed $8 million in 2009 with a club option of $8.5 million or a $1 million buyout for 2010, meaning he is guaranteed $9 million.

NorrisHopper30
12-09-2008, 03:44 PM
Hernandez could be a great pick-up IMO. He has declined recently due to lack of motivation and i'm hoping the young Latino's here will infuse some energy into the dude.

wojo1025
12-09-2008, 03:48 PM
Freel and 2 prospects? This is starting to go down hill. Please be someone I've never heard of!!

DFA
12-09-2008, 03:54 PM
As an Oriole fan, I can tell you that Ramon hustles once in a blue moon. He does have a knack for being clutch, whatever that means. His catching skills leave a lot be desired though. But hey, you got rid of Farney...

Good luck next year, beat the Cubs and Cardinals...

NorrisHopper30
12-09-2008, 04:04 PM
As an Oriole fan, I can tell you that Ramon hustles once in a blue moon. He does have a knack for being clutch, whatever that means. His catching skills leave a lot be desired though. But hey, you got rid of Farney...

Good luck next year, beat the Cubs and Cardinals...

Do you think lack of motivation is the main reason his stats decreased? Can it be fixed?

BEETTLEBUG
12-09-2008, 04:15 PM
What order do the Reds pick in the Rule5 Draft on Thursday?

redsfandan
12-09-2008, 04:17 PM
What order do the Reds pick in the Rule5 Draft on Thursday?

i think it's 8th just like the june draft.

BEETTLEBUG
12-09-2008, 04:28 PM
i think it's 8th just like the june draft.

Thanks

redsfandan
12-09-2008, 04:36 PM
since this looks like it will be official soon i'll be really curious about the details. kinda worried about the prospects included.

Nasty_Boy
12-09-2008, 04:48 PM
Ramon Hernandez he's my new favorite player! This move automaticly adds years to Jay Bruce's career. It keeps all women and children in the first 4 rows safe from flyin 170 lbs bodies.

Truthfully, Freel did play hard and made some great defensive plays. But I grew tired of him the last few years because he liked to "fake" hustle... you know diving for the ball that's 12 feet from him or climbing the wall on a ball that's 25 rows deep. And he started swinging like a power hitter instead of a leadoff man. And I'm pleased that the Reds could get something out of him with the injury that he suffered last season. Can't say I'm gonna miss him much.

DFA
12-09-2008, 04:49 PM
Do you think lack of motivation is the main reason his stats decreased? Can it be fixed?

I think his stats decrease is more related to the grind of catching...catchers have a tendency to fall off a cliff pretty fast like Varitek did this year. Hopefully I'm wrong, I always liked Ramon back from his Oakland days.

Re: his motivation...there certainly is a "culture" of losing in Baltimore, I suspect there's one in the queen city too. His lack of motivation really comes up when he lollygags down the line and in his poor work habits behind the plate (though this is completely subjective on my end). In the batter's box he never slacked off. Upon leaving it is where problems developed...

But maybe a "fresh start" and a "new beginning" wil "breathe new life" into Ramon.

757690
12-09-2008, 04:52 PM
Doubt the prospects are much. They were included to balance the O's putting in a bunch of money to make the salaries equal. Usually those are B and C level prospect, guys who might be bench players down the road. Probably some one off of this list:

Junior Arias
Alex Buchholz
Ismael Guillon
Evan Hildenbrandt
Jeremy Horst
Robert Manuel
Carter Morrison
Jordan Smith
Juan Carlos Sulbaran
Mace Thurman
Philippe Valiquette
Sean Watson
Travis Wood

TheBigLebowski
12-09-2008, 04:52 PM
I like the trade. It was obvious we were going to add a catcher, and we did so without giving up a huge bounty - I still shiver when I think of the prospect of dealing Bailey for Laird. I am perfectly happy with a Hanigan/Hernandez duo behind the plate in 09.

Just hope these prospects are nothing special.

TheBigLebowski
12-09-2008, 04:53 PM
Doubt the prospects are much. They were included to balance the O's putting in a bunch of money to make the salaries equal. Usually those are B and C level prospect, guys who might be bench players down the road. Probably some one off of this list:

Junior Arias
Alex Buchholz
Ismael Guillon
Evan Hildenbrandt
Jeremy Horst
Robert Manuel
Carter Morrison
Jordan Smith
Juan Carlos Sulbaran
Mace Thurman
Philippe Valiquette
Sean Watson
Travis Wood


Sulbaran and Wood better not be on that list.

Red in Atl
12-09-2008, 04:54 PM
Ramon Hernandez he's my new favorite player! This move automaticly adds years to Jay Bruce's career. It keeps all women and children in the first 4 rows safe from flyin 170 lbs bodies.

Truthfully, Freel did play hard and made some great defensive plays. But I grew tired of him the last few years because he liked to "fake" hustle... you know diving for the ball that's 12 feet from him or climbing the wall on a ball that's 25 rows deep. And he started swinging like a power hitter instead of a leadoff man. And I'm pleased that the Reds could get something out of him with the injury that he suffered last season. Can't say I'm gonna miss him much.

Here, here! I've been wanting him gone for the last year on a number of posts I made. The Napolean complex gets quite old after awhile.

Orenda
12-09-2008, 05:00 PM
Here, here! I've been wanting him gone for the last year on a number of posts I made. The Napolean complex gets quite old after awhile.

I was for trading Freel, but I don't get the Napolean complex thing. Just because he was under-sized made him have a Napolean complex? I'd argue in sports there is a definite inverse of the Napolean complex, with guys who get judged more by "frame" "projectability" rather than actual talent.

Redman15
12-09-2008, 05:02 PM
Turner and Waring along with Freel.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081209&content_id=3708460&vkey=hotstove2008&fext=.jsp

Ghosts of 1990
12-09-2008, 05:05 PM
Freel will be missed. We still don't have a leadoff hitter and he was a good 5th OF. I guess Hairston helped make him expendable.

redsfandan
12-09-2008, 05:08 PM
well we don't have hairston back yet. walt will have to take care of that or we'll have a problem.

757690
12-09-2008, 05:12 PM
Turner and Waring along with Freel.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081209&content_id=3708460&vkey=hotstove2008&fext=.jsp

Turner could be a good backup infielder some day. Waring has some big holes in his swing, doubt he makes it past AA. 156 K's last year at Dayton. Really nothing to get worried about.

DTCromer
12-09-2008, 05:23 PM
Everyone needs to remember how hard it is to find a quality catcher. I love this deal especially with Ramon dealing with the 2 young pitchers.

cjs07484
12-09-2008, 05:27 PM
I agree with DT. Now focus needs to be shifted to the depleted outfield, and shifted quick.

mace
12-09-2008, 05:27 PM
I'd have thought they'd go for a left-handed hitting catcher to platoon with Hanigan. This could mean that Castillo makes the team.

Hondo
12-09-2008, 05:46 PM
Good trade... Moves Freel and his 4 Million and adds an Offensive Catcher that might hit 25 Homers in the GAB... Improves the Team. Very Shrewd Move by Walt...

Ok, not for a Starting Pitcher named Peavy to throw to him...

Bip Roberts
12-09-2008, 05:47 PM
too much money

bgwilly31
12-09-2008, 05:47 PM
Looking up his stats. His catchign skills definitely need improvements. But aas long as he can block balls and be a help to the young DR pitchers!

His batting skills might improve a little being at GABP and some extra motivation. This could be a great deal.

Freel will be missed. But i never saw him fitting in very well with this team. And good god i got tired of him grounding out!

JR+Rose=G.O.A.T
12-09-2008, 05:48 PM
i love the trade freel made to much for nothing! hustle only gets you so far!:thumbup:

Hondo
12-09-2008, 05:49 PM
too much money

Dude, they moved Freel and are getting money back... So it is basically a wash and the Catching situation as improved dramaticly... No more Bako or Valentin Catching... This is Wonderful... Money will be basically the same this year... O's have to send some cash...

JR+Rose=G.O.A.T
12-09-2008, 05:52 PM
i heard we get a million also ! great if true

Emin3mShady07
12-09-2008, 05:52 PM
I don't know much about the prospects the reds gave up or how much money is coming the reds way, but I really don't like the idea of paying $5 million for Ramon Hernandez. The guy has a career OBP of .326 and his slugging has been down the last 2 years at .382 and .406 respectively. Hernandez is aging fast and he doesn't really have a great eye so I think his offensive production of the last two years is going to be what the reds get next year, identical .714 OPS's actually, and for some reason I totally didn't know that Hanigan hit right-handed so I really don't understand this move. I think signing Gregg Zaun would have been a better and cheaper alternative especially considering that Hanigan's career MiLB OBP is .382 and I think he coud and would be a better hitter than hernandez next year.

Bip Roberts
12-09-2008, 05:56 PM
Dude, they moved Freel and are getting money back... So it is basically a wash and the Catching situation as improved dramaticly... No more Bako or Valentin Catching... This is Wonderful... Money will be basically the same this year... O's have to send some cash...

No they traded 2 prospects and Freel for a catcher who they couldn't wait to get rid of and in the process they added 4 million dollars in extra payroll.

redsfandan
12-09-2008, 06:13 PM
at this moment i'd have to say that baltimore won this deal. we'll have to hope for a rebound from hernandez.

Kingspoint
12-09-2008, 06:19 PM
Fantastic trade!

Traded from a position of strength where neither Waring or Turner would have ever played infield for the REDS over much better players/prospects. Freel was easily expendable.

Now, Walt....please do not sign Corey Patterson thinking that Freel needs to be replaced by him. Do not give Dusty the opportunity to screw things up.

Great move by Jockety.

Catcher problem now solved for the next 2 years.

Now Defensive Shortstop needs to be addressed. I wouldn't put 2 cents of hope on Gonzalez.

For the record, Hernandez wasn't signed for his offense, so whatever he hits the next two years is irrelevant. He was brought in as a Defensive Catcher who has worked with some very good staffs over the last 9 years.

He's trustworthy behind the plate and that's what matters. He doesn't know the National League players as well, but he does have 9 seasons of InterLeague play. He's not ignorant about the National League players. He's also seen Arroyo and Harang many times from their days in the American League. He's much better than Hanigan, and that's exactly what we needed for the next 2 seasons.

Bip Roberts
12-09-2008, 06:22 PM
Baltimore won this deal because they cut 4 million dollars

Kingspoint
12-09-2008, 06:27 PM
It doesn't matter who "won" this deal. The REDS are better for it and it cost them nothing.

redsfandan
12-09-2008, 06:29 PM
Baltimore won this deal because they cut 4 million dollars
and they made room for wieters, added a decent player in freel that could help their bench alot, and took flyers on 2 ok prospects.

It doesn't matter who "won" this deal. The REDS are better for it and it cost them nothing.

it cost them $8 million. they could've picked up a FA catcher that would've cost half that.

Bip Roberts
12-09-2008, 06:31 PM
It doesn't matter who "won" this deal. The REDS are better for it and it cost them nothing.

It cost them 4 million dollars(8 in terms of total salary) and 2 prospects :laugh:

Kingspoint
12-09-2008, 06:32 PM
It cost them 4 million dollars(8 in terms of total salary) and 2 prospects :laugh:
$4M is nothing and those prospects never would have cracked the lineup in Cincinnati as there were/are much better players/prospects in front of them.

So,...it cost them nothing.

redsfandan
12-09-2008, 06:34 PM
$4M is nothing??? really?

Bip Roberts
12-09-2008, 06:42 PM
$4M is nothing and those prospects never would have cracked the lineup in Cincinnati as there were/are much better players/prospects in front of them.

So,...it cost them nothing.

so you are fine with the Reds paying a bad defensive catcher that didnt ops much north of .700 last year 8 million dollars?

I(heart)Freel
12-09-2008, 06:49 PM
so you are fine with the Reds paying a bad defensive catcher that didnt ops much north of .700 last year 8 million dollars?

As fine as I was paying Freel $4 mill to sit in the training room for most of the season.

Can't look at these things in vacuums. Other details are relevant.

Bip Roberts
12-09-2008, 06:50 PM
As fine as I was paying Freel $4 mill to sit in the training room for most of the season.

Can't look at these things in vacuums. Other details are relevant.

If i had the option of saving 4 million id pick saving 4 million

Mitri
12-09-2008, 06:52 PM
Call me a fan. The team needed another catcher who didn't suck, and he wasn't going to come from within. They succeeded without sending back much at all.

If this trade puts an end to the three catcher roster we've seen the last, what, three years, it is a win automatically. I think it will.

Hernandez should be a slightly above-average bat at C in Cincinnati, especially facing the NL Central pitching instead the of AL East competition. This will be the first time in a while the Reds may get some decent production out of that spot.

Paired with Hanigan, we have one less position to worry about next year. Time to move onto SS.

redsfandan
12-09-2008, 06:53 PM
i'm sorry if it seems like i care too much about ONLY $4million but after this deal i think the reds now have ONLY $13 million left for an outfielder, reliever, and hairston. the $4 million that freel would've made here may very well be replaced by the same amount (or very close) for hairston. that leaves ONLY $9 million for an outfielder and a reliever. that's $8 million tied up to one catcher who may be in a platoon. the reds can't afford to spend so much on someone that may not start 120 games much less be a star especially when it takes money away from other needs.

Lockdwn11
12-09-2008, 06:54 PM
I think alot of people on this board value Freel way to much. Hernandez will help this team more this year then Freel would have and it sets up Keppinger as the super-sub on this team a role I feel he is better suited for.

Bip Roberts
12-09-2008, 06:55 PM
I would like to know how you guys decide on if a guy sucks or not because if Ramon Hernandez isnt classified as at least bad to you especially for his salary then I am one confused person.

BRM13
12-09-2008, 07:00 PM
I'm ok with trading Freel because Kepp and Hairston (if we keep him) can handle his role. I'm not too sure about Hernandez though. Sounds like he can't field a lick and his offense is declining--hope that neither of those is true, of course. I'd guess he's really here to ease the transition to Hannigan playing full time. At $8 million (looks like $4 million net after we subtract not paying Freel) he is a pricey bit of 'veteran presence' behind the plate.

I(heart)Freel
12-09-2008, 07:07 PM
I'm ok with trading Freel because Kepp and Hairston (if we keep him) can handle his role. I'm not too sure about Hernandez though. Sounds like he can't field a lick and his offense is declining--hope that neither of those is true, of course. I'd guess he's really here to ease the transition to Hannigan playing full time. At $8 million (looks like $4 million net after we subtract not paying Freel) he is a pricey bit of 'veteran presence' behind the plate.

There's also the $1+ mill the O's are sending. So it's really $3 mill more for a position the Reds simply had to fill.

757690
12-09-2008, 07:08 PM
i'm sorry if it seems like i care too much about ONLY $4million but after this deal i think the reds now have ONLY $13 million left for an outfielder, reliever, and hairston. the $4 million that freel would've made here may very well be replaced by the same amount (or very close) for hairston. that leaves ONLY $9 million for an outfielder and a reliever. that's $8 million tied up to one catcher who may be in a platoon. the reds can't afford to spend so much on someone that may not start 120 games much less be a star especially when it takes money away from other needs.

The Reds threw in Turner and Waring so that the O's would pickup the difference between the two salaries, including the buyout next year.

So basically it is Freel, Turner and Waring for Hernandez and no increase in payroll.

The official release says this: "General Manager Walt Jocketty today announced the acquisition of C Ramon Hernandez and cash from the Baltimore Orioles in exchange for IF/OF Ryan Freel and minor league infielders Justin Turner and Brandon Waring."

They are not allowed to release how much it was but it was at least $1M, since it needed the commish's approval.

So instead of spending $4M on Freel, who was not needed, they spend $4M on Hernandez, who was.

Bip Roberts
12-09-2008, 07:12 PM
There's also the $1+ mill the O's are sending. So it's really $3 mill more for a position the Reds simply had to fill.

no its 4 because Hernandez has a buy out of 1 million after this year.

Emin3mShady07
12-09-2008, 07:13 PM
I still fail to see how Hernandez was needed. Defense has never been his specialty and couldn't the reds have signed gregg zaun if they really wanted to sign a catcher for "veteran presence"? Hanigan is a better option than Hernandez.

Bip Roberts
12-09-2008, 07:14 PM
The Reds threw in Turner and Waring so that the O's would pickup the difference between the two salaries, including the buyout next year.

So basically it is Freel, Turner and Waring for Hernandez and no increase in payroll.

The official release says this: "General Manager Walt Jocketty today announced the acquisition of C Ramon Hernandez and cash from the Baltimore Orioles in exchange for IF/OF Ryan Freel and minor league infielders Justin Turner and Brandon Waring."

They are not allowed to release how much it was but it was at least $1M, since it needed the commish's approval.

So instead of spending $4M on Freel, who was not needed, they spend $4M on Hernandez, who was.

you are pretty wrong here. They only get 1 million from Balt. That means the 9 million that Hernandez was owed for this year and his buy out is only reduced by 1 million.

The Reds traded Freel, waring and turner for Hernandez and 4 million extra dollars to the payroll (8 in total)

Lockdwn11
12-09-2008, 07:17 PM
you are pretty wrong here. They only get 1 million from Balt. That means the 9 million that Hernandez was owed for this year and his buy out is only reduced by 1 million.

The Reds traded Freel, waring and turner for Hernandez and 4 million extra dollars to the payroll (8 in total)

How do you know they only got 1 million? Walt wouldn't say how much they got only that it was at least 1 million so he may or may not be wrong.

Bip Roberts
12-09-2008, 07:20 PM
Every report is saying they got 1 million dollars. I just read they got 3 million though so the deal is slightly getting better.

smoke6
12-09-2008, 07:23 PM
I will miss Freel's style of play, but this needed to be done.

BRM13
12-09-2008, 07:23 PM
How do you know they only got 1 million? Walt wouldn't say how much they got only that it was at least 1 million so he may or may not be wrong.

This is a good point. We don't know how much the Reds got. But, this highlights the fact that this deal isn't particularly good on the merits of Hernandez. It only makes sense if he doesn't cost us more than Freel cost. If Jocketty effectively sold Turner and Waring for anything close to $4 million I'll be impressed.

redhawk61
12-09-2008, 07:29 PM
"The Orioles included $3 million to pay part of Hernandez's $8 million contract, sources told CBSSports.com's Scott Miller."

Lockdwn11
12-09-2008, 07:31 PM
Walt Jocketty targeted Ramon Hernandez as early as last season.

"We thought he was the perfect fit. He'll provide good leaders, good offense in our part and handle the staff."

The reports are Hernandez didn't do that last year in Baltimore.

"That was part of reports. We had scouts who saw him in the past. He talked about it. We think a change of scenery will do him good. i talked to him. He's excited about the trade."

Said Dusty Baker: "I remember him as a young catcher in Oakland. They had a good staff there. He'll be good for out staff."

Jocketty would not say how much money was exchanged in the deal. It was at least $1 million.

redsfandan
12-09-2008, 07:31 PM
if baltimore threw in $1 million then i'm not thrilled. if it's $3 million then we still are on the hook for $6 million for hernandez so while it would make it better imo it's still debatable.

edit: it works if it is $3 million AND hernandez rebounds.

Bip Roberts
12-09-2008, 07:32 PM
"The Orioles included $3 million to pay part of Hernandez's $8 million contract, sources told CBSSports.com's Scott Miller."

http://www.sportsline.com/mcc/blogs/entry/8590096/12193185

Bip Roberts
12-09-2008, 07:33 PM
if baltimore threw in $1 million then i'm not thrilled. if it's $3 million then we still are on the hook for $6 million for hernandez so while it would make it better imo it's still debatable.

Agreed there. Paying 6 million to him isn't something i get too excited about. If he is more like the player of a few years ago then im pretty happy but if hes the last 2 years guy then I hate this deal.

Lockdwn11
12-09-2008, 07:36 PM
Hernandez will only cost the Reds 2 million this year.They were all ready on the hook for Freel's 4 million

redhawk61
12-09-2008, 07:36 PM
I believe freels contract was at 4mil this year, with Ramone's at 8, so with the 3 mil the O's are pitching in, we are only on the hook for 1mil

Lockdwn11
12-09-2008, 07:38 PM
I believe freels contract was at 4mil this year, with Ramone's at 8, so with the 3 mil the O's are pitching in, we are only on the hook for 1mil

You are right I was including the buy-out next year.

757690
12-09-2008, 07:40 PM
And remember that Hernandez is a type A free agent next, assuming he doesn't become Paul Bako overnight, so if the Reds buyout his option, they will get two top draft picks. Two picks who would be at least as good as Turner and Waring, if not better.

And even if he has a year like last year again, he would be a big improvement over Bako, at least a win and a half.

Bip Roberts
12-09-2008, 07:42 PM
His D seems pretty bad recently. I;m not ready to say hes better than anyone yet

Lockdwn11
12-09-2008, 07:47 PM
And remember that Hernandez is a type A free agent next, assuming he doesn't become Paul Bako overnight, so if the Reds buyout his option, they will get two top draft picks. Two picks who would be at least as good as Turner and Waring, if not better.

And even if he has a year like last year again, he would be a big improvement over Bako, at least a win and a half.

I agree completely, this deal is a GREAT one for the Reds and I hope it's a sign of things to come from Walt!

redsfandan
12-09-2008, 07:56 PM
we're only on the hook for $1 million? i don't think so.

how do you know he'd be a type A?

Bip Roberts
12-09-2008, 07:57 PM
we're only on the hook for $1 million? i don't think so.

how do you know he'd be a type A?

its 6 million total if the 3 million report is true

nemesis
12-09-2008, 07:57 PM
Yeah maybe his offense has declined, yes maybe his defense isn't gold glove. But he will be a signifigant upgrade over Ross, Javy and Bako who we were paying $5.5 million for combined. So thats a gain on the books with the 3 million. It prevents us from carrying a 3rd catcher. Allows us more flexibility on the bench for young role players and keeps the human carreer killer know as Ryan Freel away from Bruce and eventually Votto.

Also maybe a latin catcher like Hernandez can help further develop Cueto, Rameriez, Herrera, Volquez and Castillo as well behind the plate.

It's a win. On the surface if your just using Sabermatics it doesnt look that way but all things mentioned above, it's a win.

Lockdwn11
12-09-2008, 07:59 PM
we're only on the hook for $1 million? i don't think so.

how do you know he'd be a type A?

Why don't you think so? He would be a type A right now and unless he completely falls off he will be next year.

redsfandan
12-09-2008, 08:00 PM
its 6 million total if the 3 million report is true

that's what i thought too. the fact that freel won't be on our books doesn't mean we won't have to pay hernandez $6m. it just means that $4m will be paid to hairston (hopefully).

Why Not?
12-09-2008, 08:03 PM
Good luck with Ramon. He'll hit mistakes for home runs but frustrate with his defense.

The complaint from Orioles fans (and likely team management) was his unwillingness to do the "little" things on defense. He pretty much refused to block the plate, actually stepping out in front of the plate to receive a throw then trying to dive back to make the tag. He would often just decide not to get down for balls in the dirt. He became quite lazy.

Lockdwn11
12-09-2008, 08:10 PM
that's what i thought too. the fact that freel won't be on our books doesn't mean we won't have to pay hernandez $6m. it just means that $4m will be paid to hairston (hopefully).

I don't think you understand.The Reds where going to have Freels 4 million on the books so that leaves +4 million for Hernandez. The O's sent 3 million to the Reds to off set the differance. So Hernandez will cost the Reds 1 million this year and 1 million next.

Bip Roberts
12-09-2008, 08:12 PM
I don't think you understand.The Reds where going to have Freels 4 million on the books so that leaves +4 million for Hernandez. The O's sent 3 million to the Reds to off set the differance. So Hernandez will cost the Reds 1 million this year and 1 million next.

No he will cost the reds 5 million this year, and 1 million buy out.

Lockdwn11
12-09-2008, 08:13 PM
Good luck with Ramon. He'll hit mistakes for home runs but frustrate with his defense.

The complaint from Orioles fans (and likely team management) was his unwillingness to do the "little" things on defense. He pretty much refused to block the plate, actually stepping out in front of the plate to receive a throw then trying to dive back to make the tag. He would often just decide not to get down for balls in the dirt. He became quite lazy.

That would be the correct way to receive the throw. It's taught that way from little league all the way up to the bigs.

Lockdwn11
12-09-2008, 08:14 PM
No he will cost the reds 5 million this year, and 1 million buy out.

Explain it to me then Please. Where did the 3 million go for this year?

redsfandan
12-09-2008, 08:17 PM
that's the 2nd baltimore fan that has said something like that in this thread. doesn't exactly sound like a ringing endorsement.

nemesis i don't think this means the reds won't have 3 catchers. we can hope.


Why don't you think so? He would be a type A right now and unless he completely falls off he will be next year.

i wasn't saying he wouldn't be a type A. just that i thought it was too soon to tell what he'd be. maybe i'm wrong about that. how do you know he'd be a type A now?

HalMorrisRules
12-09-2008, 08:20 PM
This writer at Fangraph isnt a big fan of the deal. I think his opinion of Valentin is greatly over exaggerated. If Valentin is so good, then why didnt the Reds start him more often when they had him? Maybe they might know a little more about Mr. Valentin than this 22-year old writer.

The Most Important Trade Ever (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-most-important-trade-ever/)

Bip Roberts
12-09-2008, 08:24 PM
Explain it to me then Please. Where did the 3 million go for this year?

They swap contracts and supposedly the Reds get 3 million also. That means instead of paying Hernandez 9 million they now pay him 6. The Reds add 2 million to the payroll while Baltimore subtracts 2.

Freel cost 4 million
Hernandez 9 including buy out

Swap deals then subtract 3 from the differnce in the original deal. Freel and the prospects now cost 7 and Hernandez now cost 6.

The Reds owed freel 4 million but now owe Hernandez 6 so there is 2 extra million added to the payroll.

Emin3mShady07
12-09-2008, 08:24 PM
Yeah maybe his offense has declined, yes maybe his defense isn't gold glove. But he will be a signifigant upgrade over Ross, Javy and Bako who we were paying $5.5 million for combined. So thats a gain on the books with the 3 million. It prevents us from carrying a 3rd catcher. Allows us more flexibility on the bench for young role players and keeps the human carreer killer know as Ryan Freel away from Bruce and eventually Votto.

Also maybe a latin catcher like Hernandez can help further develop Cueto, Rameriez, Herrera, Volquez and Castillo as well behind the plate.

It's a win. On the surface if your just using Sabermatics it doesnt look that way but all things mentioned above, it's a win.

I don't really buy into clubhouse chemistry (and as much as I hate the Tigers, I love Jim Leyland's rants about chemistry) but from several reports floating out around there, Hernandez is lazy, hard to coach, and unmotivated...now I know these may not be true, but still would you want a guy like that to mentor younger players? I personnally wouldn't and I still don't like this trade. The reds pay $1 million this year and $1 million next year to make their catching position worse offensively than what they had. I know Bako and Valentin were bad last year, but I still think Hanigan would have been more of an upgrade over Hernandez. Hanigan had an .811 OPS last year at AAA and a career MiLB OPS of .754. I think that Hanigan could easily OPS .754 next year which would be most likely be better than what Hernandez could produce. Most MLB players, especially catchers, don't start to improve when they are on the wrong side of 30 and Hernandez does not have a very good eye at the plate so if he is to be productive, it has to be from the slugging department, which I would bet does not improve much from this year to next.

Lockdwn11
12-09-2008, 08:25 PM
He is in the top 20% of all catcher in production so That makes him a type A free agent

Lockdwn11
12-09-2008, 08:26 PM
They swap contracts and supposedly the Reds get 3 million also. That means instead of paying Hernandez 9 million they now pay him 6. The Reds add 2 million to the payroll while Baltimore subtracts 2.

Freel cost 4 million
Hernandez 9 including buy out

Swap deals then subtract 3 from the differnce in the original deal. Freel and the prospects now cost 7 and Hernandez now cost 6.

The Reds owed freel 4 million but now owe Hernandez 6 so there is 2 extra million added to the payroll.

And that is what I said.Freels 4 million will now makeup part of Hernandez deal so the Reds add only two million, 1 million this year and a 1 million buy out next year.

Bip Roberts
12-09-2008, 08:28 PM
And that is what I said.

Yes its like if freel made 6 million and never got traded. For some reason I was getting the impression that people thought this was only 2 mill on the reds payroll.

Emin3mShady07
12-09-2008, 08:32 PM
He is in the top 20% of all catcher in production so That makes him a type A free agent

Is that offensive production? Cuz if it is he is certainly not in the top 20% http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=basic_batting&linesToDisplay=100&orderBy=ops&direction=DESC&qual_filter=ignore&season_filter%5B%5D=2008&league_filter%5B%5D=All&pos_filter%5B%5D=2&Submit=Submit

I'd just like to point out that David Ross and Javier Valentin out OPS'd him last year...:scared:

gedred69
12-09-2008, 08:40 PM
Someone tell me a Catcher wasn't needed! No way to get a Mauer, so set the sights a little lower please. Waring is at least 2 years away, maybe further when you consider the likes of, Valaika--SS or 3B? Frazier,-- no SS, maybe 3B? Francisco definately 3B --if he isn't another Wily Mo. Turner, same vintage as Valaika and Dorn, yet fell behind those 2 moving up. Freel one of my all-time favorites but any better than Dickerson, Kepp', Hopper? Not to mention his best weapon has been his legs, which have sustained 2 different injuries the last 2 seasons? Last year 6 SB, caught 4 times? I wouldn't be surprised if he's lost some more speed.....

redsfandan
12-09-2008, 08:41 PM
thanks Emin3mShady07, that's just what i wanted to hear. :rolleyes:

Lockdwn11
12-09-2008, 08:43 PM
Is that offensive production? Cuz if it is he is certainly not in the top 20% http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=basic_batting&linesToDisplay=100&orderBy=ops&direction=DESC&qual_filter=ignore&season_filter%5B%5D=2008&league_filter%5B%5D=All&pos_filter%5B%5D=2&Submit=Submit

I'd just like to point out that David Ross and Javier Valentin out OPS'd him last year...:scared:

Yes and there is more to production than OPS alone. Ross, Bako and Valentin last year had 66 RBI's combined! Hernandez had 65 RBI (Hows that OPS looking now) and if you don't want to believe me go look it up. He was in the top 20%. Give anyone of those players Ramon Hernandez number of at-bats then come talk to me about OPS.

DannyB
12-09-2008, 08:56 PM
Not to mention his best weapon has been his legs, which have sustained 2 different injuries the last 2 seasons? Last year 6 SB, caught 4 times? I wouldn't be surprised if he's lost some more speed.....
He seems to lose some brain cells every year too

gedred69
12-09-2008, 09:07 PM
He seems to lose some brain cells every year too

OOPs! Forgot to mention that.........Have you ever met the guy? He's loveable, yet a total NUT! You shoulda' seen him at ST the last 2 years. His wife waited for him in the parking lot outside the clubhouse like someone's Mommie after school to make sure he didn't get in any trouble. It was hilarious!!

Emin3mShady07
12-09-2008, 09:49 PM
Yes and there is more to production than OPS alone. Ross, Bako and Valentin last year had 66 RBI's combined! Hernandez had 65 RBI (Hows that OPS looking now) and if you don't want to believe me go look it up. He was in the top 20%. Give anyone of those players Ramon Hernandez number of at-bats then come talk to me about OPS.

Well, Hernandez was tied for 10th in the Majors at catcher with 61 runs created.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=batting&linesToDisplay=50&orderBy=rc&direction=DESC&qual_filter=ignore&season_filter%5B%5D=2008&league_filter%5B%5D=All&pos_filter%5B%5D=2&Submit=Submit

So that is certainly top 20%. However, that number is tragically skewed in my opinion. Runs created is a counting stat so because Hernandez had so many more plate appearances than other catchers he is much high up on that list. If david ross had the sam amount of PAs as hernandez, he would have created 53 runs, so Hernandez is still an upgrade over Ross, but that isn't saying much. His runs created per plate apperance was 18th in the majors, so I would find it quite a stretch to say that is the top 20%, but unfortunately for me, I doubt whoever makes up the rankings for Type A would go that in depth to find out who should be where. Regardless I don't think the Reds will offer him arb if he has a bad season next year because you can only get a 20% discount in your contract if you accept arb and that would mean roughly 7 million plus the 1 million for the buyout

TheNext44
12-09-2008, 10:25 PM
Well, Hernandez was tied for 10th in the Majors at catcher with 61 runs created.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=batting&linesToDisplay=50&orderBy=rc&direction=DESC&qual_filter=ignore&season_filter%5B%5D=2008&league_filter%5B%5D=All&pos_filter%5B%5D=2&Submit=Submit

So that is certainly top 20%. However, that number is tragically skewed in my opinion. Runs created is a counting stat so because Hernandez had so many more plate appearances than other catchers he is much high up on that list. If david ross had the sam amount of PAs as hernandez, he would have created 53 runs, so Hernandez is still an upgrade over Ross, but that isn't saying much. His runs created per plate apperance was 18th in the majors, so I would find it quite a stretch to say that is the top 20%, but unfortunately for me, I doubt whoever makes up the rankings for Type A would go that in depth to find out who should be where.

The Elias ranking system is based on the last three years of performance. So nearly anyone who was a starting catcher and not platooned for three straight years, would be in the top 20%.
It is based on counting stats and for very good reason. Counting stats count actual production, not talent, not projected production, but what have you produced in the last three years. I want my type A free agents to be guys who have produced for three years in a row, not just guys who have the potential to produce, or who have produced in a platoon.
Saber stats are great for projections, for predicting the future, for figuring out who to play and when. Counting stats are great for seeing what a guy actually did, what runs and wins he actually produced.

Anyway, for a catcher, Hernandez's numbers are pretty good. He has a career 96 OPS+, which is very good for a catcher. Remember that he mostly faced the AL East, and all the other teams in that division had great ptiching staffs. And Miller Park is not nearly as hitter friendly as GABP. And his BABIP was out of line with his line drive rate, so I think he should be able to put up a .750 OPS next year.

Now I personally thought that Hanigan would be fine with a veteran backup, but since Hernandez only costs $2M a year over what the Reds would have been paying before the trade, this is a smart move. A veteran backup would have cost around $1M (Bako cost $750K), and Hernandez is definitely worth at least $1M over a veteran backup. And if he leaves next year, the Reds will get two draft picks.

redsfandan
12-09-2008, 11:40 PM
less than half of his abs last season were vs AL East teams. also miller park is in milwaukee. his home field was camden yards which isn't THAT different from Great American. he may be ok offensively but a catcher should be good defensively and that doesn't seem to have been the case w/hernandez. if he starts most of the time then the better defender likely is on the bench. if he's the backup then he'll still be kind of an expensive one. we may have to wait and see to know for sure if he'll be a type A or type B FA but that's secondary. catcher is a position where defense matters more than offense and since one offseason priority was to improve team defense it's questionable whether this will help. i hope it will.

Steviejoe
12-09-2008, 11:48 PM
Was a good pickup,i thought that two prospects were a little much but i did not see ant of the in Cincinnati any time soon.I think as others he will help some of the hispanic pitchers.As for the price it came out about even with the reported money.Plus you hope he will get back to his career adverage in all stats.But i belive Hanigan will still get plenty of playing time,he handled the pitchers pretty well last year.

Emin3mShady07
12-10-2008, 12:29 AM
Well, I think the jury is still out on this trade. Reds got something of value for Ryan freel, opportunities like that don't come along often, and I don't think those prospects will ever be missed. The reds are going to essentially pay hernandez $1million for the next two seasons which isn't much and a decent backup catcher would probably cost that much, or in the general vicinity. I guess my greatest fear is that Hernandez won't regain his .780 OPS form and the reds would have a veteran catcher blocking Hanigan's opportunity to contribute, and on the flip side there is no guarantee that Hanigan produces, so at very least this trade added some depth to the reds. It is true that Hernandez's BABIP and LD% did not match up last year, but in 2007 they did and he still posted an OPS of .714, not to mention Dave Ross was actually unluckier than Hernandez last year in regards to BABIP and I'm not going to expect him to put up much better numbers than a .747, or advocate signing him. Now maybe Hernandez rebounds, but he is getting older and that scares me a little. No one really knows what kind of physical condition he is in now, he could be better, he could be worse, but all the same he isn't getting any younger. There are conflicting reports about his defense, some scouting reports like him, others don't so I'm not sure what to think about his defense, and catcher is a defense first position like others pointed out. But considering it cost the reds only $1 million it is a low risk move with a high upside, but only time will tell.

Ghosts of 1990
12-10-2008, 01:30 AM
I'm gonna miss Javy

Kingspoint
12-10-2008, 02:10 AM
so you are fine with the Reds paying a bad defensive catcher that didnt ops much north of .700 last year 8 million dollars?

I don't believe he's a bad defensive catcher. I think he's a good defensive catcher, and by defense, I mean how he handles a pitching staff. As a catcher throughout my career, I rate that as the most important part of being a catcher.

Kingspoint
12-10-2008, 02:12 AM
Walt Jocketty targeted Ramon Hernandez as early as last season.

"We thought he was the perfect fit. He'll provide good leaders, good offense in our part and handle the staff."

The reports are Hernandez didn't do that last year in Baltimore.

"That was part of reports. We had scouts who saw him in the past. He talked about it. We think a change of scenery will do him good. i talked to him. He's excited about the trade."

Said Dusty Baker: "I remember him as a young catcher in Oakland. They had a good staff there. He'll be good for out staff."

Jocketty would not say how much money was exchanged in the deal. It was at least $1 million.

I feel exactly the same way about Hernandez. I'm looking forward to him being behind the plate.

NarrowStairs
12-10-2008, 02:33 AM
Way to go out and get an old, fat, unmarketable slob to stick behind the dish. His offense isn't that much of an improvement over Hanigan's, and his defense is a shade above pathetic.

flash
12-10-2008, 08:37 AM
For those who think this guy is not bad defensively consider this

1. He gave up more stolen bases than any other catcher in baseball last year. 99

2. He was 3rd in Passed balls with 10.

3. He was 4th in errors with 9.

4. His fielding pct. was one of the lowest among starting catchers.

redsfandan
12-10-2008, 08:51 AM
thanks Emin3mShady07 i mean flash, that's just what i wanted to hear. :rolleyes:

flash
12-10-2008, 09:07 AM
Just out of curiosity Has he ever played in the outfield?

Why Not?
12-10-2008, 10:43 AM
That would be the correct way to receive the throw. It's taught that way from little league all the way up to the bigs.

I didn't explain that correctly, it was an effort to avoid contact when the plate needed to be defended.

Why Not?
12-10-2008, 10:58 AM
I don't believe he's a bad defensive catcher. I think he's a good defensive catcher, and by defense, I mean how he handles a pitching staff. As a catcher throughout my career, I rate that as the most important part of being a catcher.

It's an ambiguous thing and I'm not qualified to judge, but many fans thought he was a pretty poor game-caller.

I don't mean to come on this board and say Ramon is a disaster. He very well could thrive with his option and/or a new contract on the line. But he was clearly unmotivated the last year and a half in Baltimore. Removing him from the roster seemed to be the top priority for the Orioles front office this winter.

bounty37h
12-10-2008, 11:24 AM
Everyone needs to remember how hard it is to find a quality catcher. I love this deal especially with Ramon dealing with the 2 young pitchers.

I agree, but after seeing his numbers from last year, is he a quality catcher anymore???

bounty37h
12-10-2008, 11:39 AM
[QUOTE=Emin3mShady07;1775238]Is that offensive production? Cuz if it is he is certainly not in the top 20% http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=basic_batting&linesToDisplay=100&orderBy=ops&direction=DESC&qual_filter=ignore&season_filter%5B%5D=2008&league_filter%5B%5D=All&pos_filter%5B%5D=2&Submit=Submit

Well, it couldnt have been defensive, from the few stats I just read on him, he was in the bottom 3 in most catcher defensive stats. All I know is I go to more O's games then other teams, and I have often wondered how that dude was actually paid to play pro ball-looked like my high school bullpen catcher. I am not excited over this trade for a "catcher".

Z-Fly
12-10-2008, 11:49 AM
Is he playing for a contract next year? If so, I would imagine that would be pretty good motivation.

BLEEDS
12-10-2008, 12:08 PM
""
NL average for a catcher last year was .255/.329/.387 - .716 OPS

Ramon last year was .257/.308/.406 - .714 OPS

Bako last year was (gulp) .217/.299/.328 - .627 OPS
""
""
A Hernandez/Hannigan combo would be worth about 13 RC vs a Ross/Bako combo over 600 PA's.

If the Reds can upgrade 13 runs at every position, pitching remaining the same, and they'd be a 500 team.
""
""
People like Freel because of the highlights they see on Sportscenter of him hustling but when he's first pitch swinging, getting picked off 1st, and diving for a ball that he has no chance at and injuring himself, then ask those same fans how much they love his hustle. Don't get me wrong I liked Farney a lot, but he's he's expensive and expandable.
""
""
Jocketty did a few things:

He brought in a guy who can catch and with Hanigan that gives the Reds the best catching they've had in a long time. A very long time.

He evidently didn't take on payroll...all options there remain open.

He moved a guy who has proved he can't stay healthy and was a big - unproductive- salary.

He opened up the third base logjam in the minors a wee bit and did it by dealing the least likely to succeed of the third base prospects.

He added a valuable piece without touching anything resembling a major chip.
""
""
Orioles GM Andy McPhail

"It was a delight to deal with Walt. I've never been quite chiselled so much as I was with Walt over a period of grinding me over what should have been announced days ago, but Walt insisted on a pound of flesh and five, which he got. But I do think this is a trade that makes perfect sense for both franchises, and we're delighted to have it.
""



How in the world we got somebody to take Ryan Freel off our hands is Beyond Me - while I like his skills in theory, he's not Peter Rose, and his age/injuries have taken a toll. The fact that we got a veteran catcher with REAL value, a track record, and a risk/reward worth actually taking, is icing on the cake.
Giving up two minor leaguers to take care of the extra monetary difference is equaled out by the fact that he's 95% likely to be a Type A Free Agent which means two draft picks.

Basically, for ~$2M we got an upgrade from Freel to a position of REAL NEED, that will, if nothing else, give Great Support to our two young pitchers. Case Closed IMO.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Lockdwn11
12-10-2008, 01:08 PM
""
NL average for a catcher last year was .255/.329/.387 - .716 OPS

Ramon last year was .257/.308/.406 - .714 OPS

Bako last year was (gulp) .217/.299/.328 - .627 OPS
""
""
A Hernandez/Hannigan combo would be worth about 13 RC vs a Ross/Bako combo over 600 PA's.

If the Reds can upgrade 13 runs at every position, pitching remaining the same, and they'd be a 500 team.
""
""
People like Freel because of the highlights they see on Sportscenter of him hustling but when he's first pitch swinging, getting picked off 1st, and diving for a ball that he has no chance at and injuring himself, then ask those same fans how much they love his hustle. Don't get me wrong I liked Farney a lot, but he's he's expensive and expandable.
""
""
Jocketty did a few things:

He brought in a guy who can catch and with Hanigan that gives the Reds the best catching they've had in a long time. A very long time.

He evidently didn't take on payroll...all options there remain open.

He moved a guy who has proved he can't stay healthy and was a big - unproductive- salary.

He opened up the third base logjam in the minors a wee bit and did it by dealing the least likely to succeed of the third base prospects.

He added a valuable piece without touching anything resembling a major chip.
""
""
Orioles GM Andy McPhail

"It was a delight to deal with Walt. I've never been quite chiselled so much as I was with Walt over a period of grinding me over what should have been announced days ago, but Walt insisted on a pound of flesh and five, which he got. But I do think this is a trade that makes perfect sense for both franchises, and we're delighted to have it.
""



How in the world we got somebody to take Ryan Freel off our hands is Beyond Me - while I like his skills in theory, he's not Peter Rose, and his age/injuries have taken a toll. The fact that we got a veteran catcher with REAL value, a track record, and a risk/reward worth actually taking, is icing on the cake.
Giving up two minor leaguers to take care of the extra monetary difference is equaled out by the fact that he's 95% likely to be a Type A Free Agent which means two draft picks.

Basically, for ~$2M we got an upgrade from Freel to a position of REAL NEED, that will, if nothing else, give Great Support to our two young pitchers. Case Closed IMO.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I agree, and I just can't understand why some on this board can't see that this is a win all the way around . We GAVE UP PRETTY MUCH NOTHING two prospects thats not in the top 20 of our farm. We up graded at a spot that HAD to be up graded (Catcher) and some how Walt got them to take Freel and his 4 million + they handed us 3 million WOW.

I(heart)Freel
12-10-2008, 03:20 PM
Has anyone seen an official dollar figure coming back from the O's? In millions, I've read $1+, I've read $2 and I've read $3.

Which is it? Would love to update the 2009 payroll spreadsheet. Every little bit helps, right?

redsfandan
12-10-2008, 03:28 PM
wish i could help ya. i just know the more it is the better i'll feel about it.

Kingspoint
12-10-2008, 05:17 PM
For those who think this guy is not bad defensively consider this

1. He gave up more stolen bases than any other catcher in baseball last year. 99

2. He was 3rd in Passed balls with 10.

3. He was 4th in errors with 9.

4. His fielding pct. was one of the lowest among starting catchers.

I don't care about the bubblegum stats. All I'm interested in is how our scouts think he works with pitchers. They like him. I like him.

NeilHamburger
12-10-2008, 05:49 PM
Has anyone seen an official dollar figure coming back from the O's? In millions, I've read $1+, I've read $2 and I've read $3.

Which is it? Would love to update the 2009 payroll spreadsheet. Every little bit helps, right?

This is from Fay on the payroll. According to him the reds have roughly 16-17 million to spend on Hairston and that big bat they need.

-Walt Jocketty and White Sox GM talked at the commissioner's dinner last night, I'm told. A deal for Jermaine Dye isn't close but there's still a chance it could happen. I'm also told the White Sox scouts aren't sold on Homer Bailey.

Saw speculation that the Reds may wait and see if they can get an outfielder on the free agent market. Bobby Abreu and Pat Burrell were mentioned on foxsports.com. I don't think the Reds would play that kind of coin. But No. 1 on my to-do list today was to try to get a handle on how much money the Reds have to spend. By adding Ramon Hernandez, re-signing Mike Lincoln and offering arbitration to David Weathers, the Reds added a net of about $6 million the payroll. I'd think they could afford add quite a bit more payroll.

Francisco Cordero ($12 million), Aaron Harang ($11 million), Bronson Arroyo ($9.5 million), Hernandez ($8 million), Alex Gonzlaez ($5.375), Brandon Phillips ($4.75 million) and Mike Lincoln ($1.5 million) will make $52.125 million. Weathers will get up to $4 million in arbitration. Edwin Encarnacion, also arbitration-eligible will make $1 million or so. Add 16 other players at $400,000 or so. That adds up to about $64 million. If the payroll stays last year's $74 million level, that leave $10 million. If it goes to $80 million -- my guess -- it leaves $16 million.





Now keep in mind that 80 million is not concrete,the payroll could be a little over or under that, and also a payroll of 83 million at the start of the year can turn into 80 by the end if trades need to be made.

I'd just assume keep the bullpen we have, sign Hairston if reasonable and spend the 12 million it would take to get that big bat.

I(heart)Freel
12-10-2008, 06:20 PM
Brilliant...

I had Arroyo's bonus as being added into his 2009 salary, but it looks like that was paid last year. Also interesting on the Edwin arb figure guess from Fay.

Fay didn't factor in the $2 mill coming back, to offset Ramon's 2009 salary. So I adjusted that.

All told... here's how my numbers add up:


Contracts

Phillips 4.75

Agon 5.38

R Hernandez 6

Harang 11

Arroyo 9.5

Cordero 12

Lincoln 1.5


Arbitration

Encarnacion 1

Weathers 4


Minimum ($400k)

(remainder 16 players) 6.4


TOTAL 61.53


Est BUDGET 80


Left to Spend 18.47





Hairston, a Lefty Bullpener and a big RH Bat? Seems utterly do-able with $18 to spend.

gedred69
12-10-2008, 08:40 PM
I'm still thinking Atkins is as good as the Reds will be able to come up with. Either he or EE moves to LF, ---if the Reds don't have to give up EE to make the trade. Rock's want young pitching in return. Who would the Reds be willing to let go of, that Colorado would be interested in? Maloney? Bailey? Ramirez? How about Livingston or Thompson? They both have the "fragile" cloud although may be acceptable to wrap a deal up....

Jack Burton
12-10-2008, 09:55 PM
My 2, seems like a lot to give up for a below average catcher. Haven't seen much of ol' Ramon but reports are that he is poor defensively. I guess he did catch for the Zito, Mulder, Hudson rotation in Oakland, so here's to hoping he resorts back to those days and calls great games for our guys. Should put up some decent offensive numbers in GABP.

flash
12-10-2008, 10:33 PM
I don't care about the bubblegum stats. All I'm interested in is how our scouts think he works with pitchers. They like him. I like him.

Okay, I'll bite. Just how good were Oriole pitchers last year.

They were 29th in ERA (That is next to last.)
They were dead last in K's.

HOWEVER, THEY DID GIVE UP MORE WALKS THAN ANY OTHER TEAM.

Their bullpen did blow 23 saves.

They were eighth in hits allowed. Combine that with the most steals allowed and you have quite a combination.

What were Hernandez and the staff working on together?

Oh, the Orioles also had the second worst record in the American League last year.

WildcatFan
12-11-2008, 01:05 AM
but he speaks SPANISH

Nasty_Boy
12-11-2008, 10:46 AM
Yep, and the Reds had a terrible defense last season. I would blame that on Brandon Phillips.

Slyder
12-11-2008, 11:49 AM
Anyone remember the Ramon Ortiz?

Thats about what I expect to happen with Hernandez. Couldnt we have just signed IRod for less? I know his game isnt what it use to be but he's STILL better than this guy and not cost a thing more. I know theres not much out there in FA but is Hernandez that much better than Josh Bard coming off a down year with a better split the previous 2 years? This is the type of trade you make AFTER free agency over and you struck out EVERYWHERE.

BLEEDS
12-11-2008, 11:55 AM
Anyone remember the Ramon Ortiz?

Thats about what I expect to happen with Hernandez. Couldnt we have just signed IRod for less? I know his game isnt what it use to be but he's STILL better than this guy and not cost a thing more. I know theres not much out there in FA but is Hernandez that much better than Josh Bard coming off a down year with a better split the previous 2 years? This is the type of trade you make AFTER free agency over and you struck out EVERYWHERE.

Then you'd STILL have a $4M Ryan Freel to deal with.

This is a WIN/WIN even if Ramon does nothing more at the plate. He'll definitely handle this pitching staff - young and old - which is the real victory here.

We just turned Ryan Freel (something not very useful at this point) into a veteran presence behind the plate (something pretty darn useful at this point) for $1M. If you think Ramon is a bigger downside risk than Freel, then I guess you can complain. Not many can agree with that.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Rusty the Red
12-11-2008, 12:02 PM
Having a veteran catcher while giving away only an afterthought is a great deal - 365 days a year. He doesn't have to be a world stopper, but a solid presence behind the dish and a positive person in the clubhouse. This is a great step forward.

Slyder
12-11-2008, 12:26 PM
Having a veteran catcher while giving away only an afterthought is a great deal - 365 days a year. He doesn't have to be a world stopper, but a solid presence behind the dish and a positive person in the clubhouse. This is a great step forward.

For all his flaws you knew waht you were getting with Ryan Freel. Some of what I have heard is that Hernandez has gotten "lazy" in Baltimore. Wouldnt it have been more economically feisable to go after Josh Bard who wouldnt have cost you a thing more and outproduced the previous two years (2006 and 7) in arguably the biggest pitchers park in the NL?

Plus wheres this leave us in the OF?

Bruce, Dickerson, Votto (and needing a 1b), ????, Hopper, *shock* Stubbs *shock* *Ducks behind a table*, (insert Louisville spect here)

Yes a lot of POTENTIAL but as we've learned through the years with Brandon Larson and other former big minor league stars potential doesnt always translate to the majors.

We expect Bruce to turn a corner and be a star, I've heard/read that Dickerson has been described as Brady Anderson lite type. Until they actually cross that threshold its just potential. Maybe I am over valueing Freel but he at the very least possibly gave you some stability now you still have to go out and trade for another OF and maybe 2 if Hopper can't prove he's more than a fast dude that can bunt and slap stick hit.

We had Paul Bako as the "veteran catcher" howd that work out?

Whats wrong with Castillo? He's suppose to be slick with the glove.
Phillies had who?
Cubs played some rookie what was his name?
Tampa had who?

How was Tampa's pitching staff?

redsfandan
12-11-2008, 12:35 PM
we also could have kept the two prospects, dealt freel to another team for cash or hell a bag of balls, and picked up bard. we would've had a cheaper and better defensive catcher.

Slyder
12-11-2008, 12:47 PM
I try to keep on an even kiel I really do when it comes to trades. But this trade made us older, slower, and didnt do anything for defense (Any recent scouting reports are saying Hernandez gets run on easily).

19% thrown out rate last year. Gave up the MOST stolen bases in the MAJORS last year 99 according to mlb. 10 passed balls again most of anyone who that was their "main position". 9 Errors Good for tied for 4th most. Getting older, and giving up prospect (even if they were fringe in our system) wheres the upside in this?

Notable others:
IRod 32.5% (25 of 77)
Laird 28.3% (21 of 74)
Bako 28.6% (22 of 77)
Zaun 25.9% (14 of 54)
Hernandez 19.5% (24 of 123)

I thought we were suppose to turning toward defense not further away from it.

Kingspoint
12-11-2008, 04:38 PM
Okay, I'll bite. Just how good were Oriole pitchers last year.

They were 29th in ERA (That is next to last.)
They were dead last in K's.

HOWEVER, THEY DID GIVE UP MORE WALKS THAN ANY OTHER TEAM.

Their bullpen did blow 23 saves.

They were eighth in hits allowed. Combine that with the most steals allowed and you have quite a combination.

What were Hernandez and the staff working on together?

Oh, the Orioles also had the second worst record in the American League last year.

If any of this meant anything at all when evaluating a catcher, then there'd be no need for scouts. Try all you want to use stats to evaluate a catcher. You just can't do it in any way, shape or form. Listen to the REDS' scouts and what they have to say about him and to Jockety and what they have to say about him. Leave the stats in the bubblegum packets when it comes to evaluating a catcher's worth to a ballclub.

Why Not?
12-11-2008, 05:31 PM
If any of this meant anything at all when evaluating a catcher, then there'd be no need for scouts. Try all you want to use stats to evaluate a catcher. You just can't do it in any way, shape or form. Listen to the REDS' scouts and what they have to say about him and to Jockety and what they have to say about him. Leave the stats in the bubblegum packets when it comes to evaluating a catcher's worth to a ballclub.

If the Reds' scouts are excited about Ramon's intangibles, they are seemingly alone in that opinion. The Orioles shopped Ramon pretty aggressively this summer -- just looking to dump the salary -- and found no takers.

If the Reds camp is talking up Ramon's skills, I think you can chalk that up to management patting themselves on the back. You'll be hard-pressed to find many baseball people impressed with the guy.

Lockdwn11
12-11-2008, 09:49 PM
If the Reds' scouts are excited about Ramon's intangibles, they are seemingly alone in that opinion. The Orioles shopped Ramon pretty aggressively this summer -- just looking to dump the salary -- and found no takers.

If the Reds camp is talking up Ramon's skills, I think you can chalk that up to management patting themselves on the back. You'll be hard-pressed to find many baseball people impressed with the guy.

Funny because it the same story with Freel.

wojo1025
12-12-2008, 12:05 PM
RotoAuthority's take on the trade:

On Tuesday, the Orioles sent Ramon Hernandez and cash to the Reds for Ryan Freel and two minor leaguers. Let's take a look at the fantasy fallout.

Hernandez is a classic "change of scenery" guy. It doesn't hurt that 2009 is a contract year for him, too. He posted a .257-15-65-49-0 line for the Orioles in '08, not too bad for a catcher but also not the 20 HR, 80 RBI form we've seen him flash. I'd like to blame his early-season sore wrist, but the monthly trends don't fully support it. He's 33 in May; will it ever come back? Don't look for the ballpark to inflate his stats; both Camden Yards and Great American Ballpark boost right-handed HRs by at least 20%. But the move back to the NL and the aforementioned factors make him a solid buy. I can see him sneaking into the top ten for catchers, his strong contact rate boosting his AVG back past .270.

WildcatFan
12-12-2008, 12:36 PM
If he can be in the top half of ML catchers, keep the seat warm for Hanigan and be dealt at the trade deadline, I'd say it was a good pickup. If he can be in the top 10, like Rotoworld says, and bat .270+, I'd say it was a great pickup. If he lays an egg at the beginning of the season, sees 30 games in '08 and leaves as a FA at the end of the year, I'd say nice try, at least you didn't give up much for him. Really no way to lose here.

I did like that Josh Bard idea though.

Why Not?
12-12-2008, 12:45 PM
Funny because it the same story with Freel.

I'm sure. That's the saving grace for the Reds, the reason this deal makes sense for them. All I'm saying is not to expect a dynamic player in Hernandez.

Both teams hope the players will improve with a change of scenary. But it's not like the Orioles are counting on Freel to start. He'll replace Luke Scott in LF in the late innings and pinch run. He's an upgrade from our backup infielders of 2007 in that he knows how to properly grip the bat and which batters' box to stand in.

With Millar gone, he'll be the team's comic relief.

Lockdwn11
12-12-2008, 04:14 PM
I havn't seen anyone here on this board call him a "dynamic player" What he is is a veteran catcher something the Reds didn't have and needed. They gave up next to nothing to get him.Plus he will be catching a better staff here so I'm sure his defensive numbers will be better than last year. It's a win win trade both teams got what they wanted

brachial pleXUs
12-12-2008, 09:38 PM
I have a good friend who's a die-hard O's fan, and he was absolutely ECSTATIC that they got rid of Hernandez. Of course they do have Matt Wieters in waiting, but I'm a little concerned.

Nevertheless, we can only hold out hope that this is one of Walt's better reclamation projects, although even his 08 season was better than anything we got from the unholy trinity of Ross, Bako, and Valentin. Hopefully he'll be a good mentor to Hanigan.

improbus
12-13-2008, 08:40 AM
Then you'd STILL have a $4M Ryan Freel to deal with.

This is a WIN/WIN even if Ramon does nothing more at the plate. He'll definitely handle this pitching staff - young and old - which is the real victory here.

We just turned Ryan Freel (something not very useful at this point) into a veteran presence behind the plate (something pretty darn useful at this point) for $1M. If you think Ramon is a bigger downside risk than Freel, then I guess you can complain. Not many can agree with that.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I couldn't agree more. I'm not sure I'm interested in 50 games from a 33 year old Freel. His OBP and SLG were very average. To be able to turn Freel into a potential asset is a good move.

Kingspoint
12-13-2008, 04:09 PM
If the Reds camp is talking up Ramon's skills, I think you can chalk that up to management patting themselves on the back. You'll be hard-pressed to find many baseball people impressed with the guy.

He wouldn't already have a 9-year career as a starter if baseball people weren't impressed with him. 3 different clubs have thought that he's the best catcher in the organization to start for them for 9 years in a row now. And, now a 4th Club is going to make that 10 years in a row. I'd say that "baseball people" are impressed with the guy.

SarasotaFan
12-14-2008, 01:34 AM
"The word around the league was that Hernandez was frustrated with losing in Baltimore and that it affected his play. Hernandez didn't deny it, but said he always gave 100 percent.

"When you're used to competing and you get to June and you're already out of competition, you go to the stadium and there's nothing to fight for anymore," Hernandez said. "Everything gets worse and worse and never gets better all year long. It's kind of frustrating. It makes you sad. But I was trying my best all the time. I was trying very, very hard. Everything I did over there was my best. It didn't work out, but at least I can't come out with my head down, because I know I tried my hardest."

Hernandez likes to be in the lineup every day and has caught 135 or more games in five of his 10 seasons. He has every expectation to catch as much with the Reds in 2009.

"When you sit down, you miss something," Hernandez said. "Maybe the day you're sitting down is the game you might get a hit that wins the game or a home run that puts your team ahead. If you want to be a part of something, you have to be competing. The only way to be competing is when you're playing." "

So is he saying that in June he'll just show up to GAB and go through the motions ? Surely he doesn't think the Reds will be a competitor next year. The Reds aren't that much better than the Orioles.

redsfandan
12-14-2008, 01:53 AM
So is he saying that in June he'll just show up to GAB and go through the motions ? Surely he doesn't think the Reds will be a competitor next year. The Reds aren't that much better than the Orioles.


Think so? I mean I don't expect the Reds to be world beaters this year either but there's a reason people have picked us as a sleeper and not Baltimore. You only have to compare the starting pitchers.
I'm not sure I'd want him to catch 135 games though. If Hanigan is going to be our catcher in 2010 I'd want him to see a little more time this year than only 27 games.

Why Not?
12-14-2008, 11:07 PM
He wouldn't already have a 9-year career as a starter if baseball people weren't impressed with him. 3 different clubs have thought that he's the best catcher in the organization to start for them for 9 years in a row now. And, now a 4th Club is going to make that 10 years in a row. I'd say that "baseball people" are impressed with the guy.

I'm not saying he isn't a major leaguer. But his value is in his bat. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

redsfandan
12-14-2008, 11:22 PM
And THAT leaves what is really my only concern: his defense.

Slyder
12-14-2008, 11:23 PM
Think so? I mean I don't expect the Reds to be world beaters this year either but there's a reason people have picked us as a sleeper and not Baltimore. You only have to compare the starting pitchers.
I'm not sure I'd want him to catch 135 games though. If Hanigan is going to be our catcher in 2010 I'd want him to see a little more time this year than only 27 games.

And we were suppose to be the dark horse in the NL Central this past season too. We've not had a winning season for 8 years now. People make those kind of "dark horse" prediction for the simple reason that its something to crow about if theyre right. Otherwise Oh well, I said they were dark horse not division favorites.

redsfandan
12-14-2008, 11:25 PM
My point was Cincinnati is in a little better shape than Baltimore.

WildcatFan
12-15-2008, 02:09 PM
I hold to the theory that Cincinnati is one great bat away from the postseason, which is more than you can say for Baltimore. This team really could shape up a lot like last year's Rays team, with a core group of young talent and a top-shelf rotation. The problem over the last couple of years has been that when the offense is on, the pitching is off, and when the pitching is on, the offense can't score runs. I can't imagine Hernandez will cost the team any runs, especially since we are relying on Hanigan, who is getting his first shot at a regular starting job. Walt is trying to make upgrades in a down free agent market year for position players. At least we're not in the position to have to overpay for arms like a lot of other teams are.

redsfandan
12-15-2008, 02:34 PM
... I can't imagine Hernandez will cost the team any runs, especially since we are relying on Hanigan, who is getting his first shot at a regular starting job. ...

Man I hope that happens. A 60/40 split of the workload would work for me. But imo, if Hanigan doesn't see at least close to 40% of the time it would be a mistake. If Hanigan is going to be the catcher in 2010 he needs to be able to get used to working with our pitchers.

Emin3mShady07
12-15-2008, 02:40 PM
The reds need a bat and a good defensive SS. One of the biggest reasons the rays went from worst to first is their huge turn around on defense. They had BJ Upton playing second, Iwamura playing third, brendan Harris playing short, Carl Crawford in CF, and Delmon Young playing left. Crawford is just an average CFer, but he was well above average in LF. Jason Bartlett is a very good fielder and his defense alone upgraded the rays run differential over Harris by nearly 30 runs. Longoria was a plus fielder at first and Iwamura was more suited for second base and Upton was a much better CFer than a second baseman so the Rays went from one of the worst defensive teams to the best and they also bolstered their Bullpen with guys like Grant Balfour, lefty whose name escapes me, and Troy percival. They lost a below average offensive and defensive LFer and added a good arm in Matt Garza and received a breakout season from dionner Navarro.

Basically, what I am trying to say is the Reds are no Rays yet. The reds have two terrible fielders at SS and 3B, have no true LF yet and have ?s in CF and at the 5th starter position. The reds certainly need a lot of work to be a cinderella story next year.

WildcatFan
12-15-2008, 02:41 PM
Agree wholeheartedly with redsfandan. I hope Herndandez wasn't signed with the intention of being the 2009 starter. I was under the impression that this is a platoon and a chance for Hanigan to learn from a veteran, seeing as how this is the last guaranteed year in Hernandez's contract.

Anyway, if the Reds are in contention come September and Ramon is having a pretty good year, you've got a proven guy catching your relatively young pitching staff in a playoff race. If the Reds are out of it in June, he could be a good trade piece as a half-season rental for a contender with a weak spot behind the plate.

WildcatFan
12-15-2008, 02:49 PM
The reds need a bat and a good defensive SS. One of the biggest reasons the rays went from worst to first is their huge turn around on defense. They had BJ Upton playing second, Iwamura playing third, brendan Harris playing short, Carl Crawford in CF, and Delmon Young playing left. Crawford is just an average CFer, but he was well above average in LF. Jason Bartlett is a very good fielder and his defense alone upgraded the rays run differential over Harris by nearly 30 runs. Longoria was a plus fielder at first and Iwamura was more suited for second base and Upton was a much better CFer than a second baseman so the Rays went from one of the worst defensive teams to the best and they also bolstered their Bullpen with guys like Grant Balfour, lefty whose name escapes me, and Troy percival. They lost a below average offensive and defensive LFer and added a good arm in Matt Garza and received a breakout season from dionner Navarro.

Basically, what I am trying to say is the Reds are no Rays yet. The reds have two terrible fielders at SS and 3B, have no true LF yet and have ?s in CF and at the 5th starter position. The reds certainly need a lot of work to be a cinderella story next year.

I also don't think the Reds are the Rays yet. However, I don't think they are as far away as you say they are. Part of the allure of a Cinderella team is unproven young players (Dickerson, Hanigan, Cueto, Bruce to an extent) emerging at the same time. The core is there I really just think they are one, maybe two, pieces away from being that feel-good story in the Central.

Not to say that Walt should rest on his laurels now if he can upgrade, he should upgrade. Every little trade could go a long way toward pushing this team over the edge.

redsfandan
12-15-2008, 02:53 PM
I also don't think the Reds are the Rays yet. However, I don't think they are as far away as you say they are. Part of the allure of a Cinderella team is unproven young players (Dickerson, Hanigan, Cueto, Bruce to an extent) emerging at the same time. The core is there — I really just think they are one, maybe two, pieces away from being that feel-good story in the Central.

Not to say that Walt should rest on his laurels now — if he can upgrade, he should upgrade. Every little trade could go a long way toward pushing this team over the edge.

I agree 100%. :thumbup:

biggestREDSfan
12-15-2008, 08:39 PM
I think it was a very good move for the Reds to pick up Ramon Hernandez. The Reds have not had an experienced catcher for several years. I know he is not what you would call a Superstar. But, he is a good hitter and his catching experience will boost the young pitchers on this team. His experience in handling young pitchers will add a few more wins this year. All we need to do is to add people that will add wins for the Reds this year. :cool:

BLEEDS
12-15-2008, 09:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildcatFan
I also don't think the Reds are the Rays yet. However, I don't think they are as far away as you say they are. Part of the allure of a Cinderella team is unproven young players (Dickerson, Hanigan, Cueto, Bruce to an extent) emerging at the same time. The core is there — I really just think they are one, maybe two, pieces away from being that feel-good story in the Central.

Not to say that Walt should rest on his laurels now — if he can upgrade, he should upgrade. Every little trade could go a long way toward pushing this team over the edge.

I agree 100%. :thumbup:

You do??!?! Yet you decry this move - e.g. upgrading a position of Great NEED for $1M in additional payroll. We need to do about 3-4 more of that - AND get a BIG IMPACT RH LF-er (not a hope/wish/pray candidate who's never played a full productive year in MLB) - and THEN hope all your young guys pull out their Cinderella's.

However, in order for the Cinderella story to have a chance to take off, you've got to have a Fairy God Mother(a good Coach), a Prince (a 30+HR/100 RBI guy) and some glass slippers somewhere - all we've got so far is a Pumpkin (Dusty) and a pair of golashes...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

redsfandan
12-15-2008, 09:33 PM
Bleeds, in the other thread you actually said Bradley would be perfect for this team. I'm sorry but I just can't say that. Imo, he's the riskiest option available and I don't want THAT much risk on this team.

BLEEDS
12-15-2008, 09:44 PM
Bleeds, in the other thread you actually said Bradley would be perfect for this team. I'm sorry but I just can't say that. Imo, he's the riskiest option available and I don't want THAT much risk on this team.


That's not the topic at hand in this thread. It was Ramon Ramirez, and how we upgraded a position to above VARP, which was WAY Below that previously.

You state that you want to make trades/upgrades/acquisitions, but you don't like upgrading at C, which was one of our biggest areas of need, and we did it fairly cheaply.

In regards to the Rivera/Bradley/Dye/Burrel discussions, you want to replace a HUGE whole in our offense by plugging in guys who will struggle to perform at an average MLB positional level in where a guy who was a top 15 run producer in all of Baseball for his position.

You like Rivera - so do I, as an upgrade for Freel/Hopper, NOT for a Dunn replacement. For that, you need to go the Burrell/Bradley/Dye angle - yep, they all have risks, but I'd rather risk that Milton Bradley goes after Marty in the booth, all the while putting up some sick offensive numbers in LF (sick as in .900+ OPS), than risk Rivera/Tavares putting up sick numbers in LF (sick as in .700 OPS).

PEACE

-BLEEDS

redsfandan
12-15-2008, 10:36 PM
You state that you want to make trades/upgrades/acquisitions, but you don't like upgrading at C, which was one of our biggest areas of need, and we did it fairly cheaply.


Actually I never said that. My concern was what kind of defense Hernandez would provide.



In regards to the Rivera/Bradley/Dye/Burrel discussions, you want to replace a HUGE whole in our offense by plugging in guys who will struggle to perform at an average MLB positional level in where a guy who was a top 15 run producer in all of Baseball for his position.

You like Rivera - so do I, as an upgrade for Freel/Hopper, NOT for a Dunn replacement. For that, you need to go the Burrell/Bradley/Dye angle - yep, they all have risks, but I'd rather risk that Milton Bradley goes after Marty in the booth, all the while putting up some sick offensive numbers in LF (sick as in .900+ OPS), than risk Rivera/Tavares putting up sick numbers in LF (sick as in .700 OPS).


I HAVE said, repeatedly, that I'd be ok with Burrell, Dye, and Abreu if it was a 1-2 year deal and we could afford them. THAT'S what I have doubts about. I've also said that Taveras should be a backup IF he's on the team but anyway, if you want to roll the dice on a player that MAY stay healthy for 120+ games that's up to you but based on his track record that's VERY doubtful. You can't say that Bradley doesn't have a problem staying healthy and you also can't say that he doesn't have a problem with his temper. You seem to only want to look at the pros and easily dismiss the cons.

Why Not?
12-16-2008, 01:07 PM
Agree wholeheartedly with redsfandan. I hope Herndandez wasn't signed with the intention of being the 2009 starter. I was under the impression that this is a platoon and a chance for Hanigan to learn from a veteran, seeing as how this is the last guaranteed year in Hernandez's contract.

Anyway, if the Reds are in contention come September and Ramon is having a pretty good year, you've got a proven guy catching your relatively young pitching staff in a playoff race. If the Reds are out of it in June, he could be a good trade piece as a half-season rental for a contender with a weak spot behind the plate.

If Ramon isn't the primary catcher, I would expect the mope factor to increase.

WildcatFan
12-16-2008, 01:17 PM
Does he have a history of moping?

Why Not?
12-16-2008, 07:32 PM
Does he have a history of moping?

Moping, indifference both on the field and in keeping himself in shape during the winter. Maybe just a reaction to playing on teams that fell out of the race by June, but who knows.

Much of the reason the Orioles wanted to get rid of him was because they didn't want to see how he would react to relegation to a part-time role.....which was going to happen whenever Wieters got to the majors.

Here's hoping a change of scenery does him well. Same goes for Farney. :cool:

LouisvilleCARDS
12-16-2008, 09:08 PM
It's amazing how much whining and critical analysis goes into ever last penny the Reds spend. From what I understand the Reds are paying about $3-4 mil in his salary after the Freel difference, and dropping some of the other catchers, its really not a huge difference. Giving or taking a mil or two isn't going to cost the Reds any players. And plus, way too many people act as if the free agent market is open for anyone. Someone said Pudge Rodriguez, but why exactly would he want to play here? You know, players DO have preferences on where they go and some places they wouldn't just goto, so the whole "we could have got so and so for this much!" is completely hypothetical and arbitrary.

All that matters to me is the Reds don't make the type of mistake that comes back to haunt them for several years. No Eric Milton/Mike Stanton signings. Avoiding those types of contracts is key for the team.

Captain Hook
12-17-2008, 12:03 AM
Great move......This guy had one of his worse season in the Bigs last year and was still better then any Reds catcher in some time.

BLEEDS
12-17-2008, 09:05 AM
It's amazing how much whining and critical analysis goes into ever last penny the Reds spend. From what I understand the Reds are paying about $3-4 mil in his salary after the Freel difference

Actually it's only $1M - since they are chipping in $3M...

Seriously, I can't understand the concern. This is exactly the kind of move the Reds should make - a low risk (he will provide a decent bat and great "handling of pitchers"), high reward (he could provide a HUGE bat, and GREAT D and pitcher handling), for $1M. Versus spending big $$ or trading much better prospects for a FA who could bust.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

CesarGeronimo
12-17-2008, 04:00 PM
I like this move, except that I distrust Dusty to give Hanigan much of a chance to play now that a vet has been brought on board

Captain Hook
12-18-2008, 12:34 AM
Good point about Dusty.....I think Hernandez does well so thats not such a bad thing