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AmarilloRed
12-08-2008, 02:31 PM
The media workroom isn't even half filled, but that's because it holds the same amount of seats as you find at Camden Yards. And yes, there's a joke in there somewhere.

It wouldn't surprise me if catcher Ramon Hernandez is dealt this week, though the Orioles are expected to be busier after the meetings.

It's possible that they won't have to eat as much of his contract as originally anticipated, because one of the interested teams also is looking to dump salary. In return, the Orioles would get a utility-type player who could move from the infield to the outfield.

The Cincinnati Reds and Houston Astros are two teams looking for a catcher

http://masnsports.com/2008/12/catch-a-falling-star.html

Freel fits the above description.I don't know how reliable this is, but I thought it was interesting. I wouldn't mind moving Freel, especially if it would fill a position of need.

wheels
12-08-2008, 02:33 PM
How is this a rumor?

Speculation is not rumor.

edabbs44
12-08-2008, 02:35 PM
Ramon Hernandez Contract Exchange?
By Tim Dierkes [December 8 at 12:21pm CST]
According to Roch Kubatko of MASN Online, one of the teams interested in catcher Ramon Hernandez would like to swap contracts. The team would send the Orioles a utility guy who can play the infield and outfield.

Kubatko goes on to note that the Reds and Astros are looking for catching. Connecting the dots, Kubatko may have been talking about Ryan Freel above. Hernandez has $9MM left on his contract, while Freel has $4MM.


http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

Makes more sense than speculation, as those dots are easily connected.

wheels
12-08-2008, 02:37 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

Makes more sense than speculation, as those dots are easily connected.

Yeah, but when I read the word RUMOR, I usually see some citing of sources and specific names.

I know we could connect the dots, but it doesn't really elicit much else. Not more than what we usually do around here, anyway.

OnBaseMachine
12-08-2008, 02:45 PM
How good defensively is Hernandez these days? If he's still above average then I would definitely do this deal.

*BaseClogger*
12-08-2008, 02:55 PM
I'd rather have Shoppach, Snyder, and Schneider in that order...

corkedbat
12-08-2008, 04:15 PM
I'd rather have Shoppach, Snyder, and Schneider in that order...

I could think of several other catchers I'd rather have, but I like acquiring him for freel alone and saving chips for a SS or LF deal

wheels
12-08-2008, 04:17 PM
If this happens I'll eat something that's been in extreme close proximity to my butt.

Puffy
12-08-2008, 05:38 PM
If this happens I'll eat something that's been in extreme close proximity to my butt.

Back hair??

wheels
12-08-2008, 05:58 PM
Back hair??

You name it.

Rojo
12-08-2008, 06:17 PM
If this happens I'll eat something that's been in extreme close proximity to my butt.

Can you narrow it down a little more?

Tom Servo
12-08-2008, 06:36 PM
I like the idea of trading off Freel in order to get a catcher, I'm just not sure of Hernandez's fielding ability. Can anybody clue me in on how he ranks defensively?

OnBaseMachine
12-08-2008, 07:22 PM
Freel for Ramon Hernandez?
Posted by JohnFay at 12/8/2008 6:05 PM EST on Cincinnati.com

Here's the first decent rumor I've heard: The Reds and Orioles are talking about a Ryan Freel-for-Ramon Hernandez trade.

It makes sense: The Orioles would like to move Hernandez's $8.5 million salary. The Reds would like to move Freel's $4 million salary. The Reds are looking for a front line catcher. The Orioles need outfield and utility help.

Hernandez, 32, hit .257/.308/.406 last year. He did not have a good year defensively.

Stay tuned. May be nothing, but I've heard from people on both sides. That's usually a good indication that something is happening.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3aa526419a-0c23-412c-9802-faf49d6d8000&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

Spitball
12-08-2008, 07:29 PM
I know he doesn't throw very well and is injured a lot. Didn't he have a major collision at the plate with Jermaine Dye several years ago?

reds44
12-08-2008, 07:36 PM
If Freel gets traded, who platoons with Dickerson in CF?

Kc61
12-08-2008, 07:52 PM
If Freel gets traded, who platoons with Dickerson in CF?


1. I'd make the trade for Hernandez. He could hit 20 homers at GABP. Wish he was a better defender, but he's an experienced catcher probably compliments Hanigan OK.

2. Freel for Hernandez is a fair swap from the Reds viewpoint.

3. If Freel goes, the Reds will have to acquire some outfielders. My guess is that Hairston signs and they deal for another guy.

4. Don't discount the possibility that Dickerson platoons in left field rather than center. Reds had numerous opportunities to play him in center in September and usually played him in left. Even with Patterson around, if you really want to try out a centerfielder, you play in center sometimes.

dougdirt
12-08-2008, 07:53 PM
If Freel gets traded, who platoons with Dickerson in CF?

Hopper? Free agent? Hairston if he is brought back?

reds44
12-08-2008, 07:54 PM
Hairston would make the most sense.

RedLegSuperStar
12-08-2008, 08:16 PM
Fay -


Here's the first decent rumor I've heard: The Reds and Orioles are talking about a Ryan Freel-for-Ramon Hernandez trade.

It makes sense: The Orioles would like to move Hernandez's $8.5 million salary. The Reds would like to move Freel's $4 million salary. The Reds are looking for a front line catcher. The Orioles need outfield and utility help.

Hernandez, 32, hit .257/.308/.406 last year. He did not have a good year defensively.

Stay tuned. May be nothing, but I've heard from people on both sides. That's usually a good indication that something is happening.

Benihana
12-08-2008, 08:27 PM
I'd do it

OnBaseMachine
12-08-2008, 09:11 PM
7:50 p.m. — O's trying to deal Hernandez

The Orioles and Reds are discussing a trade that would send catcher Ramon Hernandez to Cincinnati in exchange for Ryan Freel and a mid-level prospect, but the deal cannot be completed unless the Orioles pick up a significant portion of Hernandez's remaining salary, major-league sources say.

Hernandez is owed $8 million in 2009 with a club option of $8.5 million or a $1 million buyout for 2010, meaning he is guaranteed $9 million.

The possibility of a trade was first reported Monday by the Cincinnati Enquirer and other outlets.

The Orioles have been trying hard to purge Hernandez, who batted .257 with 15 home runs and 65 RBIs in 133 games last season. --Ken Rosenthal and Ed Price

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8912072

And a mid-level prospect? No thanks. I'd do Freel for Hernandez but I wouldn't throw in a solid prospect.

Benihana
12-08-2008, 09:20 PM
7:50 p.m. — O's trying to deal Hernandez

The Orioles and Reds are discussing a trade that would send catcher Ramon Hernandez to Cincinnati in exchange for Ryan Freel and a mid-level prospect, but the deal cannot be completed unless the Orioles pick up a significant portion of Hernandez's remaining salary, major-league sources say.

Hernandez is owed $8 million in 2009 with a club option of $8.5 million or a $1 million buyout for 2010, meaning he is guaranteed $9 million.

The possibility of a trade was first reported Monday by the Cincinnati Enquirer and other outlets.

The Orioles have been trying hard to purge Hernandez, who batted .257 with 15 home runs and 65 RBIs in 133 games last season. --Ken Rosenthal and Ed Price

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8912072

And a mid-level prospect? No thanks. I'd do Freel for Hernandez but I wouldn't throw in a solid prospect.

I wouldn't give 'em much either- maybe a guy like Shaun Cumberland or Brandon Waring.

I'm also starting to get concerned over all of these economic talks- I have no problem with not wanting to pay Hernandez's salary, but economics were brought up in the Dye rumor as well. I hope Castellini is not Lindner Redux.

Mario-Rijo
12-08-2008, 09:22 PM
7:50 p.m. — O's trying to deal Hernandez

The Orioles and Reds are discussing a trade that would send catcher Ramon Hernandez to Cincinnati in exchange for Ryan Freel and a mid-level prospect, but the deal cannot be completed unless the Orioles pick up a significant portion of Hernandez's remaining salary, major-league sources say.

Hernandez is owed $8 million in 2009 with a club option of $8.5 million or a $1 million buyout for 2010, meaning he is guaranteed $9 million.

The possibility of a trade was first reported Monday by the Cincinnati Enquirer and other outlets.

The Orioles have been trying hard to purge Hernandez, who batted .257 with 15 home runs and 65 RBIs in 133 games last season. --Ken Rosenthal and Ed Price

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8912072

And a mid-level prospect? No thanks. I'd do Freel for Hernandez but I wouldn't throw in a solid prospect.

I'd have to think the O's might want a SS, they have been after Cesar Izturis in FA which tells me that Paul Janish couldn't hurt to toss in but not Zach Cozart and definitely not Valaika.

It'd really be a boon if they took Kepp and Freel and maybe tossed us a prospect, but that's probably just wishful thinking.

I got it Gonzo straight up for Hernandez!

Falls City Beer
12-08-2008, 09:26 PM
Absolutely nothing more than Freel, and even then I'm not real thrilled. That's a decent chunk of salary to take on, even subtracting Freel's salary.

Benihana
12-08-2008, 09:29 PM
Absolutely nothing more than Freel, and even then I'm not real thrilled. That's a decent chunk of salary to take on, even subtracting Freel's salary.

It sounds like the Reds would be adding a prospect so that the salary difference would be virtually nil. I would include a Waring, Cumberland, or Rosales in order to make those salaries a wash.

Mario-Rijo
12-08-2008, 09:33 PM
It sounds like the Reds would be adding a prospect so that the salary difference would be virtually nil. I would include a Waring, Cumberland, or Rosales in order to make those salaries a wash.

I wouldn't include Rosales but the other 2 wouldn't hurt any.

CougarQuest
12-08-2008, 09:34 PM
Rumors that Freel and Bailey being traded away is like an early Christmas present. And getting major league talent in return!! Lordy!!! Add Majewski and I'll know there is a Santa. :beerme:

LoganBuck
12-08-2008, 09:55 PM
7:50 p.m. — O's trying to deal Hernandez

The Orioles and Reds are discussing a trade that would send catcher Ramon Hernandez to Cincinnati in exchange for Ryan Freel and a mid-level prospect, but the deal cannot be completed unless the Orioles pick up a significant portion of Hernandez's remaining salary, major-league sources say.

Hernandez is owed $8 million in 2009 with a club option of $8.5 million or a $1 million buyout for 2010, meaning he is guaranteed $9 million.

The possibility of a trade was first reported Monday by the Cincinnati Enquirer and other outlets.

The Orioles have been trying hard to purge Hernandez, who batted .257 with 15 home runs and 65 RBIs in 133 games last season. --Ken Rosenthal and Ed Price

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8912072

And a mid-level prospect? No thanks. I'd do Freel for Hernandez but I wouldn't throw in a solid prospect.

My guess is the second player would be used as leverage for the Os to pick up the difference in salary.

RedsManRick
12-08-2008, 10:05 PM
My guess is the second player would be used as leverage for the Os to pick up the difference in salary.

Gary Majewski :D

Frankly though, I'd be surprised to see us trade Freel due to our lack of CH depth. I still think the Reds would be smart to consider having Bruce play CF if Dickerson isn't the guy. He may be a RF from age 24 or 25 on, but let's get the most value out of him while we can.

OnBaseMachine
12-08-2008, 10:20 PM
I'm not so sure I want Jocketty to do this deal now. Hernandez only threw out 19.5% of base stealers last season and just 22.7% the year before. I'd much rather go after someone like Miguel Montero or Chris Snyder, even if it means giving up Homer Bailey.

fearofpopvol1
12-08-2008, 11:52 PM
I'm also starting to get concerned over all of these economic talks- I have no problem with not wanting to pay Hernandez's salary, but economics were brought up in the Dye rumor as well. I hope Castellini is not Lindner Redux.

Dude, this isn't limited to the Reds. Almost EVERY team (not named the Yankees/Mets/Red Sox) are taking the economic crisis very seriously when it comes to decisions for next year. The future is such an unknown right now.

Benihana
12-09-2008, 12:01 AM
Dude, this isn't limited to the Reds. Almost EVERY team (not named the Yankees/Mets/Red Sox) are taking the economic crisis very seriously when it comes to decisions for next year. The future is such an unknown right now.

I understand the current economic crisis. I'm talking mainly about the Reds seeming refusal to take on any additional payroll so far.

corkedbat
12-09-2008, 12:24 AM
I wouldn't give 'em much either- maybe a guy like Shaun Cumberland or Brandon Waring.

I'm also starting to get concerned over all of these economic talks- I have no problem with not wanting to pay Hernandez's salary, but economics were brought up in the Dye rumor as well. I hope Castellini is not Lindner Redux.

I'm not sure if economics are necessarily a deal-breaker or a ploy for leverage in discussions.

We all saw the reports that said total salary could be as high as $80M this year and I saw elsewhere that the current payroll istands at about $54M (just what I read, not certain on that). If that is true, that would leave about $36M potentially free for adding contracts.

If Arroyo is dealt, that would free another $10M, EdE would free up another $3 or 4M.

That would probably be enough to absorb three salaries along the lines of Dye and Beltre or what Furcal is likely to sign for and still add a left-handed reliever in the $4M range. (Just examples)

I also think that is why they are said to be looking a Freel + prospect for Hernandez and cash. I think they are trying to zero out most of Hernadez' cost while adding a piece to the puzzle - leaving more cash to make several deals signings.

I think that WJ and BC are intent in doing their best at filling shortcomings on this roster and at least trying to compete for a Wildcard spot or make things interesting past the trade deadline.

You may argue that this team cannot compete in 09 (and you may well be right), but I don;t think Castellini believes it. I also don't think thats something he relishes taking to the fanbase, trying to sell tickets in a tough envrionment.

I think this club may wait a few free agents and/or a few clubs, but in the end I think this team makes several deals between now a Spring Training.

Whether it's in a successful bid to bring this club closer to competitveness or just a futile effort to slap lipstick on the pig to sell to the public, I think this team will end up with 5 or six new faces by the time the full squad reports to ST with at least one big surprise name.

HeatherC1212
12-09-2008, 12:30 AM
Meh, I'm on the fence about this trade. On the one hand, Freel is a great player who's had his share of injuries (usually caused by him running into something or someone else) and on the other hand, there's a catcher in Ramon who I saw loaf to first base on groundouts, not act interested at times during games, and be somewhat lazy overall for the Orioles. If he's not our main catcher, then I might be able to tolerate seeing him become a Red but I definitely wouldn't send another prospect to the O's without them picking up a bunch of his salary and the buyout. We can't afford to add that much salary for a guy who could end up being our backup catcher.

Krusty
12-09-2008, 02:21 AM
Pull the trigger. Now if adding a B-type prospect means sending a couple of million to cover Hernandez's contract, they should do that too.

This deal seems like it has a good chance of happening.

Topcat
12-09-2008, 03:55 AM
The economic crisis plays into a huge advantage to mid market teams. We are a mid market team correct :confused: ?

Krusty
12-09-2008, 05:17 AM
The economic crisis plays into a huge advantage to mid market teams. We are a mid market team correct :confused: ?

Ownership doesn't seem to concern about it so should we?

Krusty
12-09-2008, 05:31 AM
This was taken from the Baltimore Sun:

•The Orioles are in serious discussions about a trade that would send catcher Ramon Hernandez to the Cincinnati Reds for outfielder-utility man Ryan Freel and a mid-level prospect, according to sources.

The Orioles also would send cash to the Reds to help offset the difference in salaries. Freel, 32, who can play all three outfield positions and second and third base, is due to make $4 million next season, while Hernandez is owed $8 million in the last guaranteed year on his contract.

"There's been some discussions on different fronts," MacPhail said. "I wouldn't say there's nothing to it, but I have no idea - like a lot of trade discussions - of what the end result's going to be."

reds44
12-09-2008, 05:36 AM
Um, do that trade now.

OnBaseMachine
12-09-2008, 02:33 PM
Another bidder for Ramon?
By Roch Kubatko on December 9, 2008 12:48 PM | Permalink | Comments (0)

An agent who represents one of the Orioles told me that the club is "as close as it's been" to trading catcher Ramon Hernandez.

We assume that Hernandez is going to the Cincinnati Reds, but it's interesting that the Milwaukee Brewers apparently jumped into the mix. That's what this agent was told by one of his contacts in Milwaukee. He said the Brewers regard Hernandez as an upgrade over Jason Kendall.

Kendall hit .246 with two homers, 49 RBIs and a .324 slugging percentage. He played in 151 games, an unbelievable total for a catcher.

His defense was exceptional this season, so we'll have to define "upgrade."

Again, Hernandez is likely headed to Cincinnati, but the Brewers at least were part of trade discussions at some point, and might be lurking in the shadows.

http://masnsports.com/2008/12/another-bidder-for-ramon.html

HeatherC1212
12-09-2008, 03:02 PM
The plot thickens...this report was posted at the Baltimore Sun today.

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/schmuck/2008/12/source_ramon_deal_closer.html

OnBaseMachine
12-09-2008, 03:03 PM
From Heathers link:

Source: Ramon deal all but complete

According to a source here, the Orioles have made substantial progress over the past 24 hours on the prospective deal that would send Ramon Hernandez to the Cincinnati Reds for fourth outfielder Ryan Freel and a mid-level prospect.

There is a general manager's meeting going on right now, but it's possible the deal could be announced very soon. If there is any holdup, it could be because the Commissioner's Office will have to approve the deal, since more than $1 million in cash will also change hands to subsidize Ramon's salary.

O's president of baseball operations Andy MacPhail said yesterday that he hoped to get something done at these winter meetings, and this deal would probably be it. The O's don't appear to be close enough with any free agents to get a deal done in the next two days.

Hernandez became expendable for a couple of reasons -- the first, of course, being the quick progress of top catching prospect Matt Wieters. But the Orioles had become increasingly disenchanted with his lack of intensity behind the plate. The club still is reluctant to turn the starting job over to Wieters on Opening Day, but will likely sign a moderately priced free agent veteran to share the job with him.

OnBaseMachine
12-09-2008, 03:09 PM
I would rather target a younger catcher like Miguel Montero or Chris Snyder, but Ramon Hernandez is a solid option for 2009. I was doing some more research on him and he's supposedly still a decent defender. He did struggle with throwing out runners last season but he's been solid throughout his career in that department He's also a decent hitter with some pop. He owns a career .747 OPS and career OPS+ of 96. As an added plus, he speaks both English and Spanish which should be helpful for youngsters like Cueto and Ramon Ramirez who are still uncomfortable with their English. But still, I'd much rather target a guy like Snyder or Montero.

reds44
12-09-2008, 03:10 PM
Like the move. I don't think much of Freel anymore, and Hanigan/Hernandez is a huge upgrade over Ross/Bako/Javy. Hopefully the Reds re-sign Hairston to platoon with Dickerson next year.

lollipopcurve
12-09-2008, 03:15 PM
Would be a solid deal, beefing up a key position by dealing surplus talent on an iffy contract (plus, I wonder how easy it's going to be for Freel to bounce back from his hamstring problem). I like that it's a contract year for Hernandez, too. The combination of Hanigan/Hernandez, if properly deployed by Baker, would bring a big upgrade over 2008 -- and, again, it hasn't cost the organization any significant talent. Nice job by Jocketty shoring up a major leak while saving resources to be used against breakdowns elsewhere along the roster.

osuceltic
12-09-2008, 03:15 PM
On paper, this makes a lot of sense. This worries me though:


But the Orioles had become increasingly disenchanted with his lack of intensity behind the plate.

Coupled with all the talk of him loafing on the basepaths and such, I cringe.

Benihana
12-09-2008, 03:15 PM
If nothing else, this buys the Reds one year to see if Hanigan can really start and contribute at the major league level and if Mesoraco has any kind of real future whatsoever. If the answer to both questions is no, then they can trade a key asset to acquire a young stud catcher. This way they secure the catching position for this year, and can hold on to their key assets for one more year, or perhaps more appropriately, use them to acquire more pressing needs (like a young stud SS and a power-hitting OF.)

In other words, now focus the efforts on trading for Yunel Escobar as opposed to trading for Taylor Teagarden.

Roy Tucker
12-09-2008, 03:19 PM
Stay tuned. May be nothing, but I've heard from people on both sides. That's usually a good indication that something is happening.



Boy, that John Fay is sharp as a tack. Got to get up early in the morning to get anything past him.

:rolleyes:

lollipopcurve
12-09-2008, 03:23 PM
Coupled with all the talk of him loafing on the basepaths and such, I cringe.

Perhaps. But apparently he and the manager, Tremblay, didn't get along. Sometimes things go south that way, and it isn't always entirely the player's fault. Keep in mind the guy played 133 games -- a very sturdy campaign for a catcher. He'll be playing for a new contract, so I'm optimistic the effort will be there.

lollipopcurve
12-09-2008, 03:25 PM
Boy, that John Fay is sharp as a tack. Got to get up early in the morning to get anything past him.

The banker just laid down his first post in over 18 hours. Guy is cranking.

HeatherC1212
12-09-2008, 03:42 PM
It's possible a change of scenery will adjust Ramon's attitude. He was quite good for the O's when he first got there and it was really in this last season that I started wanting to throw things through the TV at him. :eek:

RedLegSuperStar
12-09-2008, 03:46 PM
MLBTradeRumors.com thinks the Reds and O's get this deal done.

Will M
12-09-2008, 03:54 PM
If nothing else, this buys the Reds one year to see if Hanigan can really start and contribute at the major league level and if Mesoraco has any kind of real future whatsoever. If the answer to both questions is no, then they can trade a key asset to acquire a young stud catcher. This way they secure the catching position for this year, and can hold on to their key assets for one more year, or perhaps more appropriately, use them to acquire more pressing needs (like a young stud SS and a power-hitting OF.)

In other words, now focus the efforts on trading for Yunel Escobar as opposed to trading for Taylor Teagarden.

agree. added plus is that he speaks Spanish.

if we could trade say Freel plus Maloney for Hernandez (with the Os kicking in 1.5-2M) that would be a really good deal for the Reds.

OnBaseMachine
12-09-2008, 03:54 PM
Getting close on Freel-Hernandez deal
Posted by JohnFay at 12/9/2008 2:38 PM EST on Cincinnati.com

I'm hearing that Ramon Hernandez-for-Ryan Freel deal is close -- very close. The Reds may send a prospect or two to the Orioles in the deal. Because more than $1 million is involved it have to approved by the commissioner office.

The Baltimore Sun reported on its website that the deal could be announced very soon.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3ab9b65ff9-a78f-436c-a76f-89eabc14e14f&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

Those better not be decent prospects.

dougdirt
12-09-2008, 03:56 PM
Getting close on Freel-Hernandez deal
Posted by JohnFay at 12/9/2008 2:38 PM EST on Cincinnati.com

I'm hearing that Ramon Hernandez-for-Ryan Freel deal is close -- very close. The Reds may send a prospect or two to the Orioles in the deal. Because more than $1 million is involved it have to approved by the commissioner office.

The Baltimore Sun reported on its website that the deal could be announced very soon.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3ab9b65ff9-a78f-436c-a76f-89eabc14e14f&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

Those better not be decent prospects.

If its 1 prospect, who is the best guy you would give up?
What about if its two prospects?

Just a rumor here, but I heard that Heisey could be involved. We shall see.

SMcGavin
12-09-2008, 03:59 PM
This would be a good trade. For what it's worth, on Hardball Times' expected BABIP they published a while back, Hernandez's xBABIP in 08 was .292. His actual BABIP was .261. May be a nice bounceback candidate.

Also, based on the last two seasons, Hernandez qualifies as a Type A free agent. But he does have a team option on his contract for 2010. Does anyone know, if the Reds declined that option, could they then offer him arb and pick up the draft picks if he declines?

HeatherC1212
12-09-2008, 04:07 PM
I was asked at the Orioles board who the Reds might send as that second prospect. I answered as best I could but I would love more feedback from you guys who know our younger prospects a little better than me (I haven't seen them very much yet). I suggested Maloney, Thompson, Roenicke, Manuel, or Fisher (although I don't think Roenicke would be in this deal, I threw his name in anyway) or maybe one of the lower ranked OFs if that's a preference for the O's. I steared them clear of our SS guys because quite frankly, IMO our own SS situation isn't strong enough for us to do that. Anyway, I'd love to hear more thoughts from you guys about the identity of that extra prospect.

OnBaseMachine
12-09-2008, 04:07 PM
If its 1 prospect, who is the best guy you would give up?
What about if its two prospects?

Just a rumor here, but I heard that Heisey could be involved. We shall see.

Maybe Freel + Sean Watson or Freel + Cumberland

I wouldn't give them Heisey.

But if Hernandez really is a Type A FA then that makes me feel better about the deal.

SMcGavin
12-09-2008, 04:09 PM
Maybe Freel + Sean Watson or Freel + Cumberland

I wouldn't give them Heisey.

But if Hernandez really is a Type A FA then that makes me feel better about the deal.

Ramon Hernandez is better than Freel. The prospect(s) you'd get when Hernandez leaves would be better than Heisey. Why wouldn't you do that deal?

lollipopcurve
12-09-2008, 04:10 PM
Just a rumor here, but I heard that Heisey could be involved. We shall see.

Ouch. The guy's one of my favorites in the system. I was kind of thinking Henry. Either way, the system is deep these days....

HeatherC1212
12-09-2008, 04:12 PM
Random note that was posted on the Orioles board (and this is killing me today with it affecting my two favorite teams, LOL :laugh: ):

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=1121


The trade in which the Orioles will send catcher Ramon Hernandez to the Reds for utility man Ryan Freel is expected to be announced today.

Another mention at the Baltimore Sun: http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/schmuck/2008/12/hernandez_trade_update.html


Apparently, the Ramon Hernandez deal is slightly sweeter for the Orioles than previously reported. The O's are believed to be getting two mid-level prospects and fourth outfielder Ryan Freel for Ramon.

Just waiting for an announcement.

They better not be two higher level prospects if it is indeed two players! :eek:

OnBaseMachine
12-09-2008, 04:13 PM
Ramon Hernandez is better than Freel. The prospect(s) you'd get when Hernandez leaves would be better than Heisey. Why wouldn't you do that deal?

I'd prefer to hang onto Heisey as I think he could develop into a decent major leaguer. I'd offer Freel + Watson and see if they bite. If they absolutely insist on Heisey being in the deal then I may bite, especially if he really is a Type A FA.

LoganBuck
12-09-2008, 04:15 PM
Heisey + Freel for Hernandez?

Sign me up.

My guess is it could be one of the guys who could be exposed to the Rule 5. The Orioles get their pick.

wheels
12-09-2008, 04:15 PM
I'm not liking the looks of this at all.

SMcGavin
12-09-2008, 04:17 PM
I'd prefer to hang onto Heisey as I think he could develop into a decent major leaguer. I'd offer Freel + Watson and see if they bite. If they absolutely insist on Heisey being in the deal then I may bite, especially if he really is a Type A FA.

He is... http://www.nypost.com/seven/11042008/sports/yankees/al_player_rankings_136998.htm

Hernandez's last two seasons were down years and they still netted him Type A status this year, so barring injury next year it's likely he'd qualify as a Type A guy again.

But my question still stands, are the Reds allowed to decline his option for 2010 and then turn around and offer him arb?

OnBaseMachine
12-09-2008, 04:18 PM
Deal done? Holds on
Posted by JohnFay at 12/9/2008 3:02 PM EST on Cincinnati.com

Just saw Reds PR Rob Butcher leave a meeting and walked rapidly toward where he might write a press release. My guess: The Ramon Hernandez-for-Ryan Freel deal is about to be announced.

Just spoke to Butcher. No announcement is scheduled -- yet.

The Baltimore Sun guys believe the deal is awaiting approval of the commissioner's office.

Stay tuned.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a78693895-b91f-44b0-beaf-6aca874c8e6e&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

dougdirt
12-09-2008, 04:19 PM
I'm not liking the looks of this at all.

Why is that?

Like Freel or Heisey that much, or dislike Hernandez that much?

AmarilloRed
12-09-2008, 04:19 PM
nm

BTW, how'd I do with my trade idea?;)

Mario-Rijo
12-09-2008, 04:20 PM
You can just about bet it will be 2 mid-level decent 'spects, Wayne will see to that. My guess is Freel, Maloney/Wood & Turner/Henry. Those guys are decent prospects but are maybe a tad undervalued here. I hope it's more like Freel, Cumberland & Jukich for Hernandez and 2 Mill.

wheels
12-09-2008, 04:26 PM
Why is that?

Like Freel or Heisey that much, or dislike Hernandez that much?

Oh it's not about Freel.

I just don't like the thought of throwing in two prospects. Mid level or not.

lollipopcurve
12-09-2008, 04:30 PM
Wayne traded for Cumberland, Henry & Jukich. Maybe he will again.

Rounding Third
12-09-2008, 04:30 PM
2 Posts From Fay



Just saw Reds PR Rob Butcher leave a meeting and walked rapidly toward where he might write a press release. My guess: The Ramon Hernandez-for-Ryan Freel deal is about to be announced.

Just spoke to Butcher. No announcement is scheduled -- yet.

The Baltimore Sun guys believe the deal is awaiting approval of the commissioner's office.

Stay tuned.




I'm hearing that Ramon Hernandez-for-Ryan Freel deal is close -- very close. The Reds may send a prospect or two to the Orioles in the deal. Because more than $1 million is involved it have to approved by the commissioner office.

The Baltimore Sun reported on its website that the deal could be announced very soon.

Matt700wlw
12-09-2008, 04:31 PM
Done (almost)

3:28 p.m. -- Reds, O's agree on trade
The Reds have reached preliminary agreement with the Orioles on a trade that will send catcher Ramon Hernandez to Cincinnati for outfielder Ryan Freel and two prospects, according to a major-league source.

The deal is pending the approval of the commissioner's office, because it involves a cash transaction of more than $1 million.

OnBaseMachine
12-09-2008, 04:34 PM
Jocketty: We'll have somethnig
Posted by JohnFay at 12/9/2008 3:02 PM EST on Cincinnati.com

Just talked to Walt Jocketty. He would not say that the Ramon Hernandez-for-Ryan Freel deal is done.

But he hinted that it's close.

"I'll tell you all about it later," he said.

Does that mean you'll have something to announce?

"We're meeting at 4:15, right?" Jocketty said.

That's the time of our daily meeting.

But as walked away, he said: "We'll have something."

The Baltimore Sun guys believe the deal is awaiting approval of the commissioner's office because the Orioles will send $1 million to the Reds in the deal.

Stay tuned.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a78693895-b91f-44b0-beaf-6aca874c8e6e&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

LoganBuck
12-09-2008, 04:34 PM
Freel+Farney+Heisey?

AmarilloRed
12-09-2008, 04:35 PM
nm again.

I hope the change of scenery helps out Ramon.

Mario-Rijo
12-09-2008, 04:35 PM
Done

3:28 p.m. -- Reds, O's agree on trade
The Reds have reached preliminary agreement with the Orioles on a trade that will send catcher Ramon Hernandez to Cincinnati for outfielder Ryan Freel and two prospects, according to a major-league source.

The deal is pending the approval of the commissioner's office, because it involves a cash transaction of more than $1 million.

Can't wait to see the specifics of the deal. If the prospects are not big names then this is a big win for my taste. Getting Hernandez for someone who I didn't even want on the roster is a pretty big deal for me. Now we can move on to seeing about a RH run producer and maybe more.

HeatherC1212
12-09-2008, 04:36 PM
Freel+Farney+Heisey?

The O's board would go so crazy trying to figure out who this prospect named Farney is if that suggestion got posted over there but I would laugh my head off, LOL :lol:

bucksfan2
12-09-2008, 04:37 PM
Can't wait to see the specifics of the deal. If the prospects are not big names then this is a big win for my taste. Getting Hernandez for someone who I didn't even want on the roster is a pretty big deal for me. Now we can move on to seeing about a RH run producer and maybe more.

I am curious as to what the O's fans are thinking. Most people on RZ had soured on Freel over the years and then the Reds flipped him + prospects for a starting C. Did the O's sour on Hernandez?

Mario-Rijo
12-09-2008, 04:39 PM
I am curious as to what the O's fans are thinking. Most people on RZ had soured on Freel over the years and then the Reds flipped him + prospects for a starting C. Did the O's sour on Hernandez?

Oh sure they did just check out some of Heather's posts on the subject. But Freel was just dead weight at this point IMO.

Caveat Emperor
12-09-2008, 04:39 PM
Getting out of Freel's salary is good.

Getting a catcher with declining OBA skills and questionable defensive talent? Not so much a fan. Though, I would note that he did have an excellent '06 season (playing basically as an everday C) and a fairly good '07 -- and, as a bonus, he's spanish-speaking, which I think is good thing for Volquez and Cueto.

If the money ends up being a wash, I think it's hard to argue that the Reds didn't improve themselves significantly.

Though, the bench still remains a gigantic worry.

Rounding Third
12-09-2008, 04:39 PM
So if this actually is happening, then who is the starting catcher? Still Hanigan?

HeatherC1212
12-09-2008, 04:40 PM
I am curious as to what the O's fans are thinking. Most people on RZ had soured on Freel over the years and then the Reds flipped him + prospects for a starting C. Did the O's sour on Hernandez?

The O's fans are VERY soured on Ramon due to the things I mentioned before about him being rather lazy and seemingly slacking off this past year. When he first came to the O's in 2006 though, he was a beast both behind the plate and with his hitting. He was injured for parts of 2007 and I can't remmeber if he was injured last year or not. I think he stayed healthy but I'll have to check. Anyway, he would have a big chance to prove that last year wasn't his true ability and that he can be at least a solid player for us. He used to be great with the pitchers and him speaking Spanish would be a really good thing for some of our pitching staff. I hope a change of scenery allows him to relax a bit more and just play his game again.

Matt700wlw
12-09-2008, 04:40 PM
Update:


3:28 p.m. — Reds, O's agree on trade
The Reds have reached preliminary agreement with the Orioles on a trade that will send catcher Ramon Hernandez to Cincinnati for outfielder Ryan Freel and two prospects, according to a major-league source.

The deal is pending the approval of the commissioner's office, because it involves a cash transaction of more than $1 million.

On Monday, major-league sources said the deal would not be completed unless the Orioles picked up a significant portion of Hernandez's remaining salary.

Hernandez is owed $8 million in 2009 with a club option of $8.5 million or a $1 million buyout for 2010, meaning he is guaranteed $9 million.

Mario-Rijo
12-09-2008, 04:41 PM
Getting out of Freel's salary is good.

Getting a catcher with declining OBA skills and questionable defensive talent? Not so much a fan. Though, I would note that he did have an excellent '06 season (playing basically as an everday C) and a fairly good '07 -- and, as a bonus, he's spanish-speaking, which I think is good thing for Volquez and Cueto.

Very true, that language issue certainly is one that needed addressed. I think getting away from Baltimore will do him some good, obviously things had seriously declined in the past year or so there.

Tom Servo
12-09-2008, 04:41 PM
This deal is fine be me depending on the prospect. It'll be nice to have a catcher who can carry his weight with the bat for once.

Falls City Beer
12-09-2008, 04:43 PM
This deal is fine be me depending on the prospect. It'll be nice to have a catcher who can carry his weight with the bat for once.

He's a crummy hitter.

Mario-Rijo
12-09-2008, 04:44 PM
He's a crummy hitter.

He's much better than Bako, Ross or Valentin so I am fine with it.

lollipopcurve
12-09-2008, 04:46 PM
He's a crummy hitter.

He's significantly better than what this team has had out of its catchers for years now.

HeatherC1212
12-09-2008, 04:47 PM
He's a crummy hitter.

He hit something like .256 last year with 61 (?) RBIs and this was his down year. He tore up the place in 2006 (against AL pitching) so he's not that bad of a hitter. He's better than the two guys we had for most of last year! :eek:

corkedbat
12-09-2008, 04:48 PM
I'd be OK with Freel/Turner/Wood. I won't like it if we hear names like Valaika, Francisco. etc.

Ramon's atitude concerns me a bit, but a change of scenery might help and a contract won't hurt. For all the talk about Dusty, he is a decent plauyer's manager, maybe he can connect with Hernadez. He might be inspried working with two young Hispanic starters like Voquez and Cueto also. (Put Ramirez in the 5th spot and trade for Sanchez and he might be ecstatic).

Benihana
12-09-2008, 04:48 PM
Final guesses on the prospect(s)?

My guess:

1. Rosales
2. Cumberland
3. Henry

reds44
12-09-2008, 04:49 PM
Update:


3:28 p.m. — Reds, O's agree on trade
The Reds have reached preliminary agreement with the Orioles on a trade that will send catcher Ramon Hernandez to Cincinnati for outfielder Ryan Freel and two prospects, according to a major-league source.

The deal is pending the approval of the commissioner's office, because it involves a cash transaction of more than $1 million.

On Monday, major-league sources said the deal would not be completed unless the Orioles picked up a significant portion of Hernandez's remaining salary.

Hernandez is owed $8 million in 2009 with a club option of $8.5 million or a $1 million buyout for 2010, meaning he is guaranteed $9 million.
I think we can change the title now and get a sticky. I think it's hard to argue that this doesn't make the Reds better.

Mario-Rijo
12-09-2008, 04:49 PM
He hit something like .256 last year with 61 (?) RBIs and this was his down year. He tore up the place in 2006 (against AL pitching) so he's not that bad of a hitter. He's better than the two guys we had for most of last year! :eek:

Plus Heather as you pointed out on the O's board if he has his typical year in Cincy he's likely a type A FA next year. However do we get to collect on that if we turn down his option? Best case scenario is he has a great season and we keep him around another season.

Mario-Rijo
12-09-2008, 04:50 PM
Final guesses on the prospect(s)?

My guess:

1. Rosales
2. Cumberland
3. Henry

I'm sticking with Jukich and Cumberland.

Falls City Beer
12-09-2008, 04:50 PM
He's significantly better than what this team has had out of its catchers for years now.

He won't touch Ross's 2007. Pretty much a monster year with the bat. But I guess if he can replicate Ross's 2008, I'm okay with it.

Matt700wlw
12-09-2008, 04:50 PM
Looks to be a bit of a defensive liability

- Threw out just 20% of runners last year
- Led the ML's in passed balls with 10
- Tied for 3rd in ML's with 9 errors

- www.thelotd.com/lance

reds44
12-09-2008, 04:50 PM
He's much better than Bako, Ross or Valentin so I am fine with it.
Exactly. Replacing that trio of characters with Hernandez/Hanigan while giving up no production in the process is a big upgrade, IMO.

Falls City Beer
12-09-2008, 04:51 PM
Looks to be a bit of a defensive liability

- Threw out just 20% of runners last year
- Led the ML's in passed balls with 10
- Tied for 3rd in ML's with 9 errors

He might be a defensive liability, but those numbers themselves don't reveal that fact.

Rojo
12-09-2008, 04:52 PM
He won't touch Ross's 2007. Pretty much a monster year with the bat. But I guess if he can replicate Ross's 2008, I'm okay with it.

Going to say the same thing. Not sure he's much of an upgrade over a guy we just gave away.

Falls City Beer
12-09-2008, 04:53 PM
Going to say the same thing. Not sure he's much of an upgrade over a guy we just gave away.

The real question is, for me, will he be better than Ross defensively?

I imagine he will. But offensively, probably not.

lollipopcurve
12-09-2008, 04:53 PM
He won't touch Ross's 2007.

Ross had an excellent half-season with the bat. Most of the rest of the time he was sub-abysmal. And his defense was gigantically overrated, in my opinion.

HeatherC1212
12-09-2008, 04:54 PM
Plus Heather as you pointed out on the O's board if he has his typical year in Cincy he's likely a type A FA next year. However do we get to collect on that if we turn down his option? Best case scenario is he has a great season and we keep him around another season.

I'm not entirely sure how this is going to work (and I'm reading both here and the Orioles board, LOL) but it's been speculated over at the Orioles board that they would also be paying his buyout amount. Does that mean he automatically becomes a FA at the end of next season if the buyout is all ready complete?

Caveat Emperor
12-09-2008, 04:54 PM
He's a crummy hitter.

If you look over his last 5 years, his OBA is .329 and his SLG is .439 -- averages out to an OPS of .768.

That's still slightly better than LaRue's average over his last 5 years in Cincinnati (.330 / .411 / .741), and a damn sight better than what Paul Bako provided last season (.299 / .328 / .627).

And, in addition, we dump Freel.

lollipopcurve
12-09-2008, 04:55 PM
Exactly. Replacing that trio of characters with Hernandez/Hanigan while giving up no production in the process is a big upgrade, IMO.

Take a look at Hernandez's career, factor in he's playing for a new contract, keep in mind how Hanigan looked in his debut, and I don't know how you could see it any other way.

Heath
12-09-2008, 04:55 PM
There's a 4:15 meeting with Jocketty. We'll wait and see.

Mario-Rijo
12-09-2008, 04:56 PM
I'm not entirely sure how this is going to work (and I'm reading both here and the Orioles board, LOL) but it's been speculated over at the Orioles board that they would also be paying his buyout amount. Does that mean he automatically becomes a FA at the end of next season if the buyout is all ready complete?

NO just means we will have the money to buy him out if we so choose to do so. Which I expect we would, which likely means no compensation.

reds44
12-09-2008, 04:56 PM
I think the Reds have to bring back Hairston now. Hopefully for a one year deal.

Falls City Beer
12-09-2008, 04:57 PM
Ross had an excellent half-season with the bat. Most of the rest of the time he was sub-abysmal. And his defense was gigantically overrated, in my opinion.

I really disliked Ross, particularly behind the dish. And I loath a streaky (meaning half-seasons in the abyss [lulz], like Aaron Boone) hitter.

penantboundreds
12-09-2008, 04:57 PM
The Ryan Freel "Dirty Shirt Night" will stay go down as one of the best promotions ever. The Jay Buhner haircut day was pretty sweet in Seattle as well.

Raisor
12-09-2008, 04:59 PM
. The Jay Buhner haircut day was pretty sweet in Seattle as well.

The fans chanting at Junior "We've got buzz cuts, yes we do, we've got buzz cuts how about you?" was friggin sweet.

Tom Servo
12-09-2008, 04:59 PM
He won't touch Ross's 2007. Pretty much a monster year with the bat. But I guess if he can replicate Ross's 2008, I'm okay with it.
Wait, 2007? Or do you mean 2006? 06 was his big year, in 07 he hit 17 dingers but that was the only impressive part of his offense.
Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
2006 29 CIN NL 90 247 37 63 15 1 21 52 0 0 37 75 .255 .353 .579 130 143 4 5 7 3 4
2007 30 CIN NL 112 311 32 63 10 0 17 39 0 0 30 92 .203 .271 .399 68 124 5 2 4 0 9

Ltlabner
12-09-2008, 05:01 PM
He won't touch Ross's 2007. Pretty much a monster year with the bat. But I guess if he can replicate Ross's 2008, I'm okay with it.

Do you mean 2006 (good year) and 2007 (not so good year) for Ross instead of 2007/2008?



YEAR NAME AGE PA EqA OBP SLG VORP RAR RAP
2007 Ramon Hernandez 31 409 .244 .333 .382 8.4 5.8 -0.1
2007 David Ross 30 348 .223 .271 .399 -3.0 -2.5 -8.2

2006 Ramon Hernandez 30 560 .343 .479 28.8
2006 David Ross 29 296 .353 .579 22.6

As far as magically plopping him in the Reds lineup last year...


YEAR NAME AGE PA EqA OBP SLG VORP RAR RAP
2008 Ramon Hernandez 32 507 .252 .308 .406 8.3 11.2 -0.9
2008 David Ross 31 173 .267 .381 .366 4.9 6.4 2.2
2008 Javier Valentin 32 144 .254 .326 .411 2.6 3.4 -4.0
2008 Paul Bako 36 338 .217 .299 .328 -6.9 -4.1 -12.1

Not thrilled about the move as hypothisized but if we can take the catching position from the suck that was Bako to mearly average that is significant improvement. Especially considering the curent state of the catching core.

A platoon with him and Hannigan isn't optimal, but it's (on paper) workable.

HeatherC1212
12-09-2008, 05:07 PM
The O's pitching staff the past few years hasn't been the best (not meant as a slam on them....I think they know it too which is why they currently only have one starter returning for sure this year, LOL) so Ramon could be excited to catch for Cueto, Volquez, Harang, Arroyo, and Mr. #5 Starter. That's a pretty great staff and I get the impression that catchers enjoy when they have talented pitchers throwing to them.

bucksfan2
12-09-2008, 05:19 PM
I think the Reds have to bring back Hairston now. Hopefully for a one year deal.

I was thinking something like this too. The Reds will need at least one more outfielder. You have to figure the OF right now is Dickerson, Bruce, and Hopper. Unless Edwin or Votto move out the Reds will be forced to bring in someone else.

TRF
12-09-2008, 05:25 PM
I'm going to miss Freel. Yeah, he's likely a shadow of his former self, but he was damn fun to watch. Again, go look at the Dodger game from a few years back when he swiped 5 bags or that ridiculous catch in RF off I believe Pujols vs the Cards.

Good player with good skills and a body that just couldn't hold up.

M2
12-09-2008, 05:32 PM
I guess this means it's time to say hello to the bad guy:

http://www.m2jstyle.com/images/wrestlers/razor.jpg

reds44
12-09-2008, 05:33 PM
I was thinking something like this too. The Reds will need at least one more outfielder. You have to figure the OF right now is Dickerson, Bruce, and Hopper. Unless Edwin or Votto move out the Reds will be forced to bring in someone else.
Well, I certainly they hope they bring in more than just Hairston to play the OF. They need a Dye type to go along with Hairston.

Tom Servo
12-09-2008, 05:34 PM
Now we need to sign Diesel and start the New World Order of Cincinnati Reds baseball.

Rounding Third
12-09-2008, 05:34 PM
I'm going to miss Freel. Yeah, he's likely a shadow of his former self, but he was damn fun to watch. Again, go look at the Dodger game from a few years back when he swiped 5 bags or that ridiculous catch in RF off I believe Pujols vs the Cards.

Good player with good skills and a body that just couldn't hold up.

I like the bunt he caught in the air in Chicago as well.

reds44
12-09-2008, 05:37 PM
I wonder how many players that leaves from the opening day roster in 2007?

The only position players left are Edwin, Phillips, and Gonzalez.

RedEye
12-09-2008, 05:38 PM
I wonder how many of his passed balls were uncorked by Daniel Cabrera?

RedEye
12-09-2008, 05:39 PM
Time to change the thread title to more than a "trade idea"?

Ltlabner
12-09-2008, 05:40 PM
I'm in a hotel...what were the details of the deal?

*BaseClogger*
12-09-2008, 05:42 PM
I think the Reds have to bring back Hairston now. Hopefully for a one year deal.

There are plenty of players like Jerry Hairston that will be looking for a role in a few months. Remember how we got Jerry in the first place? I'd rather go with a young guy with a better glove and offensive upside over the known commodity that Jerry Hairston is...

RedEye
12-09-2008, 05:43 PM
I'm in a hotel...what were the details of the deal?

Hernandez + cash for Freel + 2 minor leaguers

Nothing official yet, but said to be on the commissioner's desk...

*BaseClogger*
12-09-2008, 05:44 PM
I'm in a hotel...what were the details of the deal?

Freel ($4M in 2009) + 2 prospects for Ramon Hernandez ($8M in 2009 and a team option for 2010 at $8.5M and a $1M buyout). The Orioles will throw in some cash...

HeatherC1212
12-09-2008, 05:45 PM
I wonder how many of his passed balls were uncorked by Daniel Cabrera?

More than a few if I remember correctly but several pitchers who have started for the O's in the last two or so years aren't know for their stellar control. :eek:

Johnny Footstool
12-09-2008, 05:45 PM
I expect the minor leaguers to be fairly inconsequential, so this looks like a good deal. Hernandez should still be in his prime for the next couple of years, and he has put up some excellent OPS numbers in the past.

Ltlabner
12-09-2008, 05:46 PM
Hernandez + cash for Freel + 2 minor leaguers

Nothing official yet, but said to be on the commissioner's desk...

I misread an earlier post. I thought The Jock was doing a presser at 4:15. Based on that, and some of the recient posts I thought the details of the cash/players were announced.

My bad.

(Thanks for the help, however).

Falls City Beer
12-09-2008, 05:46 PM
Definitely an unsexy move, but it does mean the catcher position will probably be at least average both offensively and defensively. So it's certainly not a horrible move or anything.

reds44
12-09-2008, 05:48 PM
There are plenty of players like Jerry Hairston that will be looking for a role in a few months. Remember how we got Jerry in the first place? I'd rather go with a young guy with a better glove and offensive upside over the known commodity that Jerry Hairston is...
Like who? It's not like I want Hairston to be a starter or anything, just a utility player who platoons with Dickerson.

RedEye
12-09-2008, 05:49 PM
Definitely an unsexy move, but it does mean the catcher position will probably be at least average both offensively and defensively. So it's certainly not a horrible move or anything.

It's actually nice to see WJ trade Freel for something of value to the team. You're right, it's not sexy, but Hernandez definitely fills a team need, and he isn't Javy-bad or Bako-bad.

corkedbat
12-09-2008, 05:50 PM
Definitely an unsexy move, but it does mean the catcher position will probably be at least average both offensively and defensively. So it's certainly not a horrible move or anything.

I'm OK with it. At least it gives Walt a year to look for a younger, more longterm solution.

redsfan30
12-09-2008, 05:52 PM
This improves the catcher position. Go trade for Jermaine Dye, bring in one more starting pitcher and let's go to work!

Ltlabner
12-09-2008, 05:53 PM
Even if the catching tandem is mearly medicore at the plate, and behind it, it represents a quantom-leap improvement over the black-hole of awefullness that was Bako.

While we'd all love to have Bench v.2009 out there, going from the depths of horrable to meh is actually a big step in the right direction.

Chip R
12-09-2008, 05:54 PM
I'm not going to believe this is happening until I hear from Hal McCoy. ;)

HeatherC1212
12-09-2008, 05:55 PM
I'm not going to believe this is happening until I hear from Hal McCoy. ;)

So what are you going to do until Christmas?! Hal's probably so fearful of reporting anything now that he'll wait that long to run the story, LOL ;)

corkedbat
12-09-2008, 05:56 PM
This improves the catcher position. Go trade for Jermaine Dye, bring in one more starting pitcher and let's go to work!

I've about given up on the idea of the Dye deal happening, so it will probably pop tomorrow.

I'm guessing the next move is the signing of a LH reliever. I belive we'll end up with one from Rhodes, Reyes, Beimel or Ohlman.

Strikes Out Looking
12-09-2008, 05:58 PM
Even if the catching tandem is mearly medicore at the plate, and behind it, it represents a quantem improvement over the black-hole of awefullness that was Bako.

While we'd all love to have Bench v.2009 out there, going from the depths of horrable to meh is actually a big step in the right direction.

While I agree that Bako was pretty awful offensively, I wouldn't bash him. He was not signed to be the number one catcher--Ross was hurt early and the only other option was Javy--and Bako hit pretty well in April, so Dusty being Dusty kept writing his name onto the lineup card as Bako reverted to Bako. The problem was with management that provided no other options other than Javy and Ross until the Reds were well out of it. Bako just showed up, did what the team asked him to do and reverted to his career norm.

Ltlabner
12-09-2008, 06:00 PM
While I agree that Bako was pretty awful offensively, I wouldn't bash him. He was not signed to be the number one catcher--Ross was hurt early and the only other option was Javy--and Bako hit pretty well in April, so Dusty being Dusty kept writing his name onto the lineup card as Bako reverted to Bako. The problem was with management that provided no other options other than Javy and Ross until the Reds were well out of it. Bako just showed up, did what the team asked him to do and reverted to his career norm.

Maybe I'm miss-remembering this, but didn't the Reds release Ross after his return from injury, thus thrusting Bako into the starting catching role?

Yea, Bako can't help it if The Dusty is a dolt, or the FO doesn't deliver a replacement. But I don't think it's "bashing" to point out that he's a really, really, really poor catcher.

Mario-Rijo
12-09-2008, 06:00 PM
While I agree that Bako was pretty awful offensively, I wouldn't bash him. He was not signed to be the number one catcher--Ross was hurt early and the only other option was Javy--and Bako hit pretty well in April, so Dusty being Dusty kept writing his name onto the lineup card as Bako reverted to Bako. The problem was with management that provided no other options other than Javy and Ross until the Reds were well out of it. Bako just showed up, did what the team asked him to do and reverted to his career norm.

Very true.

It looks like at least we got the best Bako money can buy. :D

Roy Tucker
12-09-2008, 06:01 PM
Even if the catching tandem is mearly medicore at the plate, and behind it, it represents a quantom-leap improvement over the black-hole of awefullness that was Bako.

While we'd all love to have Bench v.2009 out there, going from the depths of horrable to meh is actually a big step in the right direction.

I'll never get why they rode the Bako horse for so long. He had a decent April when Ross' back was ouchy. But why they used him for the rest of the year, I will never know.

I sometimes use the name "Gabor" at restaurants for reservations.

*BaseClogger*
12-09-2008, 06:02 PM
Like who? It's not like I want Hairston to be a starter or anything, just a utility player who platoons with Dickerson.

Well, he's not a young guy but I'd prefer Gabe Kapler.

Plenty of guys will become available just like Hairston last spring...

lollipopcurve
12-09-2008, 06:02 PM
Redman15 has the two prospects being Turner and Waring. He knows what he's talking about.

I liked Turner a lot, always thought he'd make it up to the Reds in some capacity. But he'll have a better shot in Baltimore, I think. Waring never did much for me, and we've got Frazier and Soto ahead of him anyway.

icehole3
12-09-2008, 06:03 PM
Turner and Waring are the 2 prospects

dougdirt
12-09-2008, 06:04 PM
Good pick up for them with Turner. He will play a role on that team from 2010 and moving forward. Waring I am not so sure on.

membengal
12-09-2008, 06:04 PM
Pretty happy about this, glad to be out of Freel's contract, and like Hernandez to solidify the C spot. Also really like that he will easily be able to communicate with Volquez and Cueto with the Spanish and what not.

I am also curious about his possibility for a power spike in GABP. Camden isn't as power friendly as people suppose, nor were his prior stops, and he has had decent power.

I could see him hitting 20-25 next year and providing a bat that makes decent and consistent contact. Really pleased about this.

Mario-Rijo
12-09-2008, 06:05 PM
Turner and Waring are the 2 prospects

Turner is solid but Waring, ehh i'd say we did alright.

*BaseClogger*
12-09-2008, 06:05 PM
:clap:

That is great news!

Chip R
12-09-2008, 06:05 PM
So what are you going to do until Christmas?! Hal's probably so fearful of reporting anything now that he'll wait that long to run the story, LOL ;)


Considering how many times he's been wrong, I doubt that's going to happen.

*BaseClogger*
12-09-2008, 06:06 PM
I'm thinking .270/.340/.450 from Hernandez with above-average defense is within reach...

icehole3
12-09-2008, 06:07 PM
I think WJ needs to come on back to Cincy, no more trading

Benihana
12-09-2008, 06:13 PM
I'm fine with this deal. Turner and Waring had no future with the big club in Cincy. Freel was dead weight on the roster. I'm not sure if I understand the Livan Hernandez signing though.

Just for reference, where did people hear about Turner and Waring being the prospects in the deal?

NJReds
12-09-2008, 06:15 PM
I'm fine with this deal. Turner and Waring had no future with the big club in Cincy. Freel was dead weight on the roster. I'm not sure if I understand the Livan Hernandez signing though.

I don't think the Reds signed Livan. I think the blogger got his Hernandezes mixed up.

Raisor
12-09-2008, 06:16 PM
I think WJ needs to come on back to Cincy, no more trading

Hernandez not scrappy enough?

SMcGavin
12-09-2008, 06:18 PM
If Turner and Waring are the two prospects, great trade by Jocketty. I expect Hernandez to OPS .750+ next year as a Red. Hanigan settles into the reserve role, where I like him a lot. The Reds had three or four giant ???s coming into the offseason, Walt just solved one of those questions by only giving up two OK prospects and an overpaid reserve outfielder.

icehole3
12-09-2008, 06:18 PM
Turner was one of my favorites

Kc61
12-09-2008, 06:26 PM
Turner will be a major league player. Too bad he had to go in this deal. But, you have to give up something to get something, as they say.

Will M
12-09-2008, 06:27 PM
If Turner and Waring are the two prospects, great trade by Jocketty. I expect Hernandez to OPS .750+ next year as a Red. Hanigan settles into the reserve role, where I like him a lot. The Reds had three or four giant ???s coming into the offseason, Walt just solved one of those questions by only giving up two OK prospects and an overpaid reserve outfielder.

pretty amazing. we get rid of Freel and improve the team at the same time. and we didn't really lose any key prospects.

Mario-Rijo
12-09-2008, 06:27 PM
Turner was one of my favorites

I liked Turner as well and Valaika may miss him but he's a marginal starting 2B at best and he's far better a prospect than Waring.

flyer85
12-09-2008, 06:31 PM
I'm not that impressed with Ramon but at least the Reds aren't sending anything they are likely to miss. It will be interesting to see how much $$ come back because Ramon is a bit pricey considering his production(or lack thereof).

Will M
12-09-2008, 06:32 PM
I liked Turner as well and Valaika may miss him but he's a marginal starting 2B at best and he's far better a prospect than Waring.

our own Redszone poll of prospects had Turner at #23 & Waring not ranked yet.

corkedbat
12-09-2008, 06:32 PM
Turner will be a major league player. Too bad he had to go in this deal. But, you have to give up something to get something, as they say.

Yeah, I liked Turner too, but Valaika prolly ends up @ 2B & Bucholz may well be major league-ready by the time Turner is. If it's Freel/Turner/Waring I like the deal.

hebroncougar
12-09-2008, 06:33 PM
Wow.........if this deal does go down, as heavily rumored, I'm a happy camper.

Matt700wlw
12-09-2008, 06:38 PM
Deal done

Posted by JohnFay at 12/9/2008 5:06 PM EST on Cincinnati.com

The Reds will announce the deal around 3:30 or so Vegas time.

The Reds will send Ryan Freel and two mid-level prospects for Baltimore catcher Ramon Hernandez. The Baltimore beat guys think the change of scenery will do Hernandez good.

_Sir_Charles_
12-09-2008, 06:40 PM
Fay actually did a quick edit of his blog post. It originally said Turner & Waring as the prospects. Not sure why he changed it, but I'd say that's confirmation enough for me.

I like the deal. I was never impressed with Freel and I loathed his contract. Losing Waring stings for me. He was a favorite of mine. But all in all, good day for Reds fans IMO.

BoydsOfSummer
12-09-2008, 06:45 PM
96 OPS+ and has thrown out 30% on his career.

_Sir_Charles_
12-09-2008, 06:45 PM
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081209&content_id=3708460&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

Sheldon update on reds.com


LAS VEGAS --- The Reds appear to be "very, very close" to acquiring catcher Orioles catcher Ramon Hernandez in a trade for utility player Ryan Freel, a source told MLB.com.
The deal would include Minor League prospects Brandon Waring and Justin Turner going to Baltimore, according to a source close to the negotiations, while Cincinnati would reportedly receive $1 million in cash -- pending approval from the Commissioner.

Hernandez is slated to make $8 million in 2009, with a 2010 club option worth $8.5 million with a $1 million buyout.

Freel is scheduled to make $4 million next season.

In 133 games last season, Hernandez batted .257 with 15 home runs and 65 RBIs. Defensively, he stopped only 19.5 percent (24-for-123) of runners stealing.

Freel, who has been with the Reds since 2003, was once an everyday center fielder for the Reds, but missed much of the last two seasons with injuries. Last season in only 48 games, he batted .298 with no homers and 10 RBIs.

Because of a torn right hamstring tendon, Freel did not play a game after June 3 of last season.

Waring, a 22-year-old third baseman, spent all of last season with Class A Dayton, batting .270 with 20 home runs and 71 RBIs in 119 games.

Turner, a 24-year-old second baseman, batted .289 with eight homers and 42 RBIs in 78 games for Double-A Chattanooga, after batting .316 in 33 games for Class A Sarasota.

Joseph
12-09-2008, 06:51 PM
So its it official yet or what?

OnBaseMachine
12-09-2008, 06:55 PM
Solid trade. Turner is a decent prospect but I'd rather trade him than Heisey. Waring has huge power but that's about it.

durl
12-09-2008, 06:55 PM
OK, how excited should I be here?

Last year, Hernandez hit .257 with 15 HR and 65 RBI. He threw out less than 20% of runners attempting to steal. For $8 mill? He's a .263 lifetime hitter with a .326 OBP.

M2
12-09-2008, 06:55 PM
Two thoughts on Hernandez:

1 - This is not a rebuilding move. Expect more veterans to be following Hernandez.

2 - This is a placeholder move that won't mean much if bigger changes don't occur.

membengal
12-09-2008, 07:00 PM
Re: your #2 point, M2...I think that we are about to see an actual off-season where a series of moves is made that taken altogether actually make sense. I don't see this as a one-off thing...

Krusty
12-09-2008, 07:04 PM
It's a good deal folks.

M2
12-09-2008, 07:11 PM
Re: your #2 point, M2...I think that we are about to see an actual off-season where a series of moves is made that taken altogether actually make sense. I don't see this as a one-off thing...

I hope that's correct. It would be a refreshing change.

OnBaseMachine
12-09-2008, 07:16 PM
Alright Walt, now find us a shortstop and an outfielder.

OUReds
12-09-2008, 07:19 PM
NL average for a catcher last year was .255/.329/.387 - .716 OPS

Ramon last year was .257/.308/.406 - .714 OPS

Bako last year was (gulp) .217/.299/.328 - .627 OPS

Offensively, Ramon was essentially a league average catcher last year, and there is at least a little evidence that he was unlucky and could improve those numbers here.

Since we essentially gave up nothing but chaff to get him (assuming the prospects are as speculated), it's hard not like this.

Cyclone792
12-09-2008, 07:20 PM
Two thoughts on Hernandez:

1 - This is not a rebuilding move. Expect more veterans to be following Hernandez.

2 - This is a placeholder move that won't mean much if bigger changes don't occur.

Yep, that's my thinking too on both fronts.

I'm fine with the move; Freel needed to get shipped out and I won't miss the prospects the Reds are sending out. If Hernandez/Hanigan is the catching unit, then I'm very pleased with what we've got behind the plate. Now eliminate the third catcher and replace it with a better bench bat and I'll be even more pleased with the catching situation.

Matt700wlw
12-09-2008, 07:21 PM
Yep, that's my thinking too on both fronts.

I'm fine with the move; Freel needed to get shipped out and I won't miss the prospects the Reds are sending out. If Hernandez/Hanigan is the catching unit, then I'm very pleased with what we've got behind the plate. The third catcher our managers have seemingly loved last year need to be swapped out for a better bench bat now. Hernandez and Hanigan can handle the catching duties without another caddy.

But Javy can play 3B....;)

Mario-Rijo
12-09-2008, 07:21 PM
What's really interesting is that the O's fans are happier than us about the deal. It's unusual for 2 fan bases to be happy with a deal.

Matt700wlw
12-09-2008, 07:22 PM
The OFFICIAL release from the Reds (gotta make it official, you know :)):



REDS ACQUIRE CATCHER RAMON HERNANDEZ FROM O'S

Send Ryan Freel, Minor Leaguers To Baltimore



LAS VEGAS - Cincinnati Reds President of Baseball Operations and General Manager Walt Jocketty today announced the acquisition of C Ramon Hernandez and cash from the Baltimore Orioles in exchange for IF/OF Ryan Freel and minor league infielders Justin Turner and Brandon Waring.


The trade was announced at the Bellagio in Las Vegas during baseball's annual winter meetings.


Hernandez, 32, last season for the Orioles made 133 appearances, including 119 starts behind the plate, and hit .257 with 22 doubles, 15 HR and 65 RBI. He hit .285 after the All-Star break.

In 10 Major League seasons and 1,118 games with the Oakland Athletics, San Diego Padres and Orioles, Hernandez has produced a career batting average of .263 with 137 HR and 602 RBI. He was an American League All-Star in 2003.

The Caracas, Venezuela native has 22 career post-season appearances with the Athletics and Padres and was a member of his native country's World Baseball Classic team in 2006.

Freel, 33, last season made just 48 appearances for the Reds, including 26 starts, because of a torn distal tendon in his right hamstring that required surgery on July 23. He missed the club's last 103 games of the season.

Turner, 24, last season hit .289 with 8 HR and 42 RBI in 78 games for Class AA Chattanooga and .316 with 11 RBI in 33 games for Sarasota in the Florida State League. Waring, 22, in 119 appearances last season for Class A Dayton hit .270 with 20 HR and 71 RBI.

Cyclone792
12-09-2008, 07:22 PM
What's really interesting is that the O's fans are happier than us about the deal. It's unusual for 2 fan bases to be happy with a deal.

That's the "Freel hustles!" aspect factoring in.

If he isn't posting that .350 on-base percentage, they'll sour on him fast. Just like I did.

RedLegSuperStar
12-09-2008, 07:22 PM
This almost move makes me think the Jermaine Dye deal will go down. If they are willing to add an extra 3 million for Hernandez they're shouldn't be an issue with Dye's contract.

redsfan30
12-09-2008, 07:23 PM
Does Hernandez hit 8th?

Cyclone792
12-09-2008, 07:25 PM
Does Hernandez hit 8th?

Should he? Depends who's playing shortstop. He shouldn't be any higher than 7th though.

Will he? We're talking about teh Uncle Dusty here so he's liable to bat anywhere from 2 to 8.

Johnny Footstool
12-09-2008, 07:25 PM
Does Hernandez hit 8th?

Depends on the SS.

If it's Janish, then Hernandez hits 7th.

Buckeye33
12-09-2008, 07:28 PM
This almost move makes me think the Jermaine Dye deal will go down. If they are willing to add an extra 3 million for Hernandez they're shouldn't be an issue with Dye's contract.

Everything written has said that the O's sent enough money back to the Reds to cover the extra salary between Hernandez and Freel. Reds added no money in this deal.

I like it. If they can get Dye for Bailey + prospect would this be the lineup vs righties?

1. Dickerson CF
2. Keppinger SS
3. Votto 1B
4. Dye LF
5. Bruce RF
6. Phillips 2B
7. Edwin 3B
8. Hernandez C

corkedbat
12-09-2008, 07:30 PM
Depends on the SS.

If it's Janish, then Hernandez hits 7th.


If it's Janish, the pitcher hits 8th :D

edabbs44
12-09-2008, 07:30 PM
I'm a fan, especially if the money is a wash. Nice upgrade.

M2
12-09-2008, 07:32 PM
What's really interesting is that the O's fans are happier than us about the deal. It's unusual for 2 fan bases to be happy with a deal.

Baltimore's been in the weeds longer than Cincinnati. Hernandez made money and the team stunk (92 or 93 losses each of the past three years). It's a never-ending cycle of "Throw the bums out!" over there.

corkedbat
12-09-2008, 07:34 PM
Everything written has said that the O's sent enough money back to the Reds to cover the extra salary between Hernandez and Freel. Reds added no money in this deal.

I like it. If they can get Dye for Bailey + prospect would this be the lineup vs righties?

1. Dickerson CF
2. Keppinger SS
3. Votto 1B
4. Dye LF
5. Bruce RF
6. Phillips 2B
7. Edwin 3B
8. Hernandez C

Or

1. Dickerson CF
2. Edwin 3B
3. Votto 1B
4. Dye LF
5. Bruce RF
6. Phillips 2B
7. Hernandez C
8. (Better defensive SS)

Homer Bailey
12-09-2008, 07:39 PM
Everything written has said that the O's sent enough money back to the Reds to cover the extra salary between Hernandez and Freel. Reds added no money in this deal.

I like it. If they can get Dye for Bailey + prospect would this be the lineup vs righties?

1. Dickerson CF
2. Keppinger SS
3. Votto 1B
4. Dye LF
5. Bruce RF
6. Phillips 2B
7. Edwin 3B
8. Hernandez C

Per MLBtraderumors:

4:34pm: MLB.com's Mark Sheldon adds that the Orioles will receive prospects Brandon Waring and Justin Turner and will send $1MM to the Reds.

HokieRed
12-09-2008, 07:39 PM
I like it a lot. We get a significant upgrade behind the plate: think of it, we go from Bako-Javy-Ross in a year to Hanigan-Hernandez! And the guys we lose were, at best, pretty well blocked in the system. But moving Freel guarantees another move--either for an outfielder or a 3b with a move of EE to left. There does seem to be a plan at last. I'm still hoping the next move is for Beltre, but we'll probably have to be happy with an outfielder.

Raisor
12-09-2008, 07:47 PM
A Hernandez/Hannigan combo would be worth about 13 RC vs a Ross/Bako combo over 600 PA's.

If the Reds can upgrade 13 runs at every position, pitching remaining the same, and they'd be a 500 team.

Mario-Rijo
12-09-2008, 07:47 PM
Per MLBtraderumors:

4:34pm: MLB.com's Mark Sheldon adds that the Orioles will receive prospects Brandon Waring and Justin Turner and will send $1MM to the Reds.

Am I wrong about this or not? The commissioners office only has to ok a deal if it's more than 1 million? I'll be interested to hear the final #'s on this, if it's 1.5-2 million i'd say it's to be expected if it's less i'd have to question why it took so long, if it's more than 2 mill then Walt outdid himself.

Mario-Rijo
12-09-2008, 07:49 PM
A Hernandez/Hannigan combo would be worth about 13 RC vs a Ross/Bako combo over 600 PA's.

If the Reds can upgrade 13 runs at every position, pitching remaining the same, and they'd be a 500 team.

Ok so what would Dye represent over what we currently have which is pretty much nothing?

dougdirt
12-09-2008, 07:52 PM
A Hernandez/Hannigan combo would be worth about 13 RC vs a Ross/Bako combo over 600 PA's.

If the Reds can upgrade 13 runs at every position, pitching remaining the same, and they'd be a 500 team.

Assuming what numbers for Hernandez/Hanigan?

Raisor
12-09-2008, 07:52 PM
Ok so what would Dye represent over what we currently have which is pretty much nothing?

Dye is worth about 100 RC for 600 PA, based on his past three seasons.

The Reds LF created about 110 runs last year in about 700 PA's, so it would be a wash.

Raisor
12-09-2008, 07:54 PM
Assuming what numbers for Hernandez/Hanigan?

2008 numbers

Hannigan 11.4 RC/95 PA's
Hernandez 58/489

Can't really guess how Dusty is going to use them, so I assumed an even number of PA's for each.

RedsManRick
12-09-2008, 07:57 PM
My thoughts:

- Hernandez is a 33 year old catcher with declining offensive value and a mediocre glove - we darn well better not taking on salary this year or next
- .260./.310/.400 and experienced or .270/.360/.370 without experience. Who do YOU think Dusty will play 80% of the time?
- If all we wanted was an upgrade over Paul Bako, we could have simply played Hanigan every day
- I think Ryan Freel will provide more value above replacement in 2009 than Hernandez will.
- Who plays CF versus lefties? Dickerson or a new acquisition?
- The Reds don't see Jeff Keppinger as a starter -- or see Castillo as a good enough utility guy
- I'm surprised we traded only SS in the system who could both field and hit, if neither superbly. I thought Turner had an outside shot of being the starting SS by the end of the season and could become a Mark DeRosa type utility guy.
- Waring is one of those high risk/ high reward types where we'll either never hear about him again or will be smacking ourselves in the forehead for years to come
- I wonder if we can extrapolate regarding Jocketty's view of big power, big strikeout type bats in general?

reds44
12-09-2008, 07:58 PM
Turner isn't a SS, is he? Pretty sure he is a 2nd baseman.

Blitz Dorsey
12-09-2008, 07:59 PM
I love this deal! This offseason is off to a good start. Now let's hope Bailey-for-Dye materializes.

I almost can't believe it. We have a real catcher. One that is solid defensively and at the plate. I'm shocked. Plus we have what I think is a very solid backup in Hanigan. Unproven in terms of playing a full MLB season, but I think he will be a fine backup for Hernandez.

Mario-Rijo
12-09-2008, 08:01 PM
Dye is worth about 100 RC for 600 PA, based on his past three seasons.

The Reds LF created about 110 runs last year in about 700 PA's, so it would be a wash.

So what we really need to improve this team is a grade A SS if not we shouldn't expect anything more than a .500 club? I'm assuming this doesn't include a Harang bounceback and overall improvement from the youth.

Tom Servo
12-09-2008, 08:02 PM
That's the "Freel hustles!" aspect factoring in.

If he isn't posting that .350 on-base percentage, they'll sour on him fast. Just like I did.
Yup. People like Freel because of the highlights they see on Sportscenter of him hustling but when he's first pitch swinging, getting picked off 1st, and diving for a ball that he has no chance at and injuring himself, then ask those same fans how much they love his hustle. Don't get me wrong I liked Farney a lot, but he's he's expensive and expandable.

reds44
12-09-2008, 08:04 PM
I love this deal! This offseason is off to a good start. Now let's hope Bailey-for-Dye materializes.

I almost can't believe it. We have a real catcher. One that is solid defensively and at the plate. I'm shocked. Plus we have what I think is a very solid backup in Hanigan. Unproven in terms of playing a full MLB season, but I think he will be a fine backup for Hernandez.
Bailey for Dye and either sign Furcal, Hudson, or trade for a SS. Add in a Rhodes or Reyes and we'll start having a team.

Raisor
12-09-2008, 08:06 PM
So what we really need to improve this team is a grade A SS if not we shouldn't expect anything more than a .500 club? I'm assuming this doesn't include a Harang bounceback and overall improvement from the youth.

Like I said, that was barring any change in the pitching.

The playoff teams last year had an average run differential of +102 runs last year.

If the Reds want to have a shot at the playoffs, that's what they need to aim for.

Vada Pinson Fan
12-09-2008, 08:06 PM
Appears to be a nice trade by Walt Jocketty. First piece of this off-season is signed (not counting Lincoln, of course), sealed and delivered. Still hoping Ken Williams wants to trade Jermaine Dye to the Reds for Homer and a Double-A/Single-A prospect or two. Glad Jocketty had a Turner and Waring type players to consumate the deal while leaving our more promising prospects still a part of the Reds future. Quite happy we have Hernandez and not Laird. Hernandez should give Cincinnati 2 years (hopefully more) of above average offense and defense.

flyer85
12-09-2008, 08:09 PM
Depends on the SS.

If it's Janish, then Hernandez hits 7th.dusty says, SS bats 2nd. :D

Ltlabner
12-09-2008, 08:11 PM
I think Ryan Freel will provide more value above replacement in 2009 than Hernandez will.

Freel's game in the field is based around speed. He's getting into his mid 30's and has had leg injuries.

His game at the plate is plate discipline and (allegedly) speed. The plate discipline isn't likely to go away, but the speed very well could.

Who knows? Maybe Freel returns to the super-sub, not great but decent guy with a solid OBP. But based on his game type, age and injuries I think it far more likely that he fades rather than excels.

I can also envision a scenario where Freel struggles due to age/rust and pushes himself harder to compensate. Pushing harder will lead to more injuries or taking greater risks (which, in turn, leads back to injuries).

Lastly, and this is purely speculative, but that collision with Hopper was pretty wicked. That may be one of those injuries that lingers and he never quite recovers even though on the surface he seems healthy.

SMcGavin
12-09-2008, 08:11 PM
- .260./.310/.400 and experienced or .270/.360/.370 without experience. Who do YOU think Dusty will play 80% of the time?


I will be really suprised if Hernandez has that line in 09. BABIP data has him pretty unlucky last year, and even if you don't buy that he's coming over from the AL East where the other four teams in his division had ERA+s of 122, 116, 115, and 104.

OnBaseMachine
12-09-2008, 08:18 PM
Turner is a second baseman, not a SS.

Mario-Rijo
12-09-2008, 08:22 PM
My thoughts:

- Hernandez is a 33 year old catcher with declining offensive value and a mediocre glove - we darn well better not taking on salary this year or next
- .260./.310/.400 and experienced or .270/.360/.370 without experience. Who do YOU think Dusty will play 80% of the time?
- If all we wanted was an upgrade over Paul Bako, we could have simply played Hanigan every day
- I think Ryan Freel will provide more value above replacement in 2009 than Hernandez will.
- Who plays CF versus lefties? Dickerson or a new acquisition?
- The Reds don't see Jeff Keppinger as a starter -- or see Castillo as a good enough utility guy
- I'm surprised we traded only SS in the system who could both field and hit, if neither superbly. I thought Turner had an outside shot of being the starting SS by the end of the season and could become a Mark DeRosa type utility guy.
- Waring is one of those high risk/ high reward types where we'll either never hear about him again or will be smacking ourselves in the forehead for years to come
- I wonder if we can extrapolate regarding Jocketty's view of big power, big strikeout type bats in general?

Are you just playing devil's advocate or are you serious about all that?

OnBaseMachine
12-09-2008, 08:24 PM
Freel on the deal
Posted by JohnFay at 12/9/2008 7:13 PM EST on Cincinnati.com

Ryan Freel was happy for a fresh start but still getting his mind around getting traded:

"A piece of me is excited. But I'm upset because of my relationship with the fans in Cincinnati. It's been tough. But you can't look at the past. I'm still playing baseball. But it's kind of an emotional time. I'm torn."

Say what you will about Freel but you can't dispute the fact that the guy played his heart out every night.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a6226f3a0-7b2d-4a7f-b298-69a7573c8f06&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

RedsManRick
12-09-2008, 08:24 PM
Turner isn't a SS, is he? Pretty sure he is a 2nd baseman.

D'oh... Well then, that changes things a little bit in terms of short term value -- same basic calculus though. My biggest complaint is that it looks like we took on a decent chunk of salary.

Caveat Emperor
12-09-2008, 08:25 PM
- If all we wanted was an upgrade over Paul Bako, we could have simply played Hanigan every day

I'm not at all sold on Ryan Hanigan as an everyday major leaguer, and apparently neither was WJ.

I think it's the height of stupid baseball to hand a guy like Hanigan a job based on 100 or so ABs if there are better/proven players to be had out there. Maybe Hanigan continues to play well next year and the team unloads Hernandez for a prospect or a pick. Maybe he doesn't. The point is, at least there is now a known commodity that can provide league-average at the position.

Redny
12-09-2008, 08:25 PM
This looks like a solid deal for the Reds. Turner at best could be an utility IFr and Waring is a contact challenged 3B who K'd more than a third of the time in Low-A. I expect that Hernandez will be plenty motivated considering his contract status.

OnBaseMachine
12-09-2008, 08:26 PM
Walt on the deal
Posted by JohnFay at 12/9/2008 6:52 PM EST on Cincinnati.com

Walt Jocketty targeted Ramon Hernandez as early as last season.

"We thought he was the perfect fit. He'll provide good leaders, good offense in our part and handle the staff."

The reports are Hernandez didn't do that last year in Baltimore.

"That was part of reports. We had scouts who saw him in the past. He talked about it. We think a change of scenery will do him good. i talked to him. He's excited about the trade."

Said Dusty Baker: "I remember him as a young catcher in Oakland. They had a good staff there. He'll be good for out staff."

Jocketty would not say how much money was exchanged in the deal. It was at least $1 million.

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RedsManRick
12-09-2008, 08:27 PM
Are you just playing devil's advocate or are you serious about all that?

For the most part, I'm serious. Forgive me for not being terribly excited about spending extra money and trading prospects for a catcher on who is clearly on the decline offensively and defensively and is likely to take away at bats from a younger guy who knows how to get on base.

It's a small move in the whole scheme of things and there's a little bit of upside involved if he has a resurgent year. I just see it as more or less a shuffling of deck chairs move that fritters away more payroll. I'd happily eat crow if he goes out OPS's .775.

reds44
12-09-2008, 08:29 PM
I'm not at all sold on Ryan Hanigan as an everyday major leaguer, and apparently neither was WJ.

I think it's the height of stupid baseball to hand a guy like Hanigan a job based on 100 or so ABs if there are better/proven players to be had out there. Maybe Hanigan continues to play well next year and the team unloads Hernandez for a prospect or a pick. Maybe he doesn't. The point is, at least there is now a known commodity that can provide league-average at the position.
I think it's similar to the Dickerson situation. They like what they have in Hanigan, but they aren't ready to hand him the keys to the car yet. Hernandez will probably end up with more at bats this season, but if Hanigan continues to hit well in his at bats you won't see Hernandez's option picked up. And even if the Reds are sold on Hanigan, there is nothing wrong with have two catchers who are actual major league players.

reds44
12-09-2008, 08:30 PM
Walt on the deal
Posted by JohnFay at 12/9/2008 6:52 PM EST on Cincinnati.com

Walt Jocketty targeted Ramon Hernandez as early as last season.

"We thought he was the perfect fit. He'll provide good leaders, good offense in our part and handle the staff."

The reports are Hernandez didn't do that last year in Baltimore.

"That was part of reports. We had scouts who saw him in the past. He talked about it. We think a change of scenery will do him good. i talked to him. He's excited about the trade."

Said Dusty Baker: "I remember him as a young catcher in Oakland. They had a good staff there. He'll be good for out staff."

Jocketty would not say how much money was exchanged in the deal. It was at least $1 million.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a68082ceb-f511-4525-a095-919a995f141e&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com



"The Orioles included $3 million to pay part of Hernandez's $8 million contract, sources told CBSSports.com's Scott Miller."


The Reds didn't spend any extra money to get Hernandez, the O's made up the difference.

RedEye
12-09-2008, 08:30 PM
For the most part, I'm serious. Forgive me for not being terribly excited about spending extra money and trading prospects for a catcher on who is clearly on the decline offensively and defensively and is likely to take away at bats from a younger guy who knows how to get on base.

You did just sum up the downside of this deal. But since the Reds are only on the hook for one year of Hernandez's contract and the prospects given up were minor, I'm not too up in arms. I have a feeling that he's going to be the most all-around competent catcher they've had since... Jason LaRue?

Patrick Bateman
12-09-2008, 08:31 PM
- I'm surprised we traded only SS in the system who could both field and hit, if neither superbly. I thought Turner had an outside shot of being the starting SS by the end of the season and could become a Mark DeRosa type utility guy.

Turner has about an average fielding 2nd basemen. If he could field competently as a SS, he might actually project as something. instead he has the bat of a back-up, and the range of a 2nd basemen. I'm of the opinion that we wont be missing him much.


- Waring is one of those high risk/ high reward types where we'll either never hear about him again or will be smacking ourselves in the forehead for years to come

How much upside does he really have. He's about to turn 23, was mediocre at A ball, and projects to be a LF/1B where his bat doesn't project at all. I personally think he's a non prospect.

As for Hernandez vs. Freel. Well I don't think Freel is going to be worth much until he rekindles his plate discipline of past. He fluked out 100 at-bats in '08 and still wasn't all that good. With his mediocre defensive skills, and ridiculous baserunning, I hardly even like him as a bench option these days.

I'm not in love with Hernandez, but I think he should get back above the .750 OPS range with the league switch. At just a one year pact, I'm not that worried about his game plummeting. He should be fairly averagish.

Even if you like Hanigan, there's still going to be 200 at-bats left over for the backup. In most cases 2 catchers are needed, and I certainly haven't been convinced that Hanigan can carry the entire load. I like the idea that every game next year we should be comfortable with the catcher in the line-up, and that's a good thing. No more Bako, Valentin, or whatever. That's a sneaky upgrade. I don't care about the stuff we gave up, so in my mind, it's a 1 year 2-4M deal, and for a competent catcher, that's a pretty reasonable short term solution and IMO a bargain when considering the price of alternatives.

Mario-Rijo
12-09-2008, 08:33 PM
For the most part, I'm serious. Forgive me for not being terribly excited about spending extra money and trading prospects for a catcher on who is clearly on the decline offensively and defensively and is likely to take away at bats from a younger guy who knows how to get on base.

It's a small move in the whole scheme of things and there's a little bit of upside involved if he has a resurgent year. I just see it as more or less a shuffling of deck chairs move that fritters away more payroll.

I don't know that we did spend extra money or not yet. And if so we were bound to anyway to get another catcher. And it does appear Hernandez is slowing down but how much of that is him (defe.) and how much is it young pitchers not holding guys on or being slow to the plate, throwing tons of wild pitches and just simply keeping Hernandez squatting for ridiculous amounts of time, etc. That and the losing makes one wonder just how much he is slipping if at all.

Patrick Bateman
12-09-2008, 08:33 PM
The Reds didn't spend any extra money to get Hernandez, the O's made up the difference.

Freel vs. Hernandez was a 5M difference when you consider the buyout. Getting 3M from the O's makes this a 2M decision, plus the worth of the players moved.

Caveat Emperor
12-09-2008, 08:33 PM
The Reds didn't spend any extra money to get Hernandez, the O's made up the difference.

If that's the case, it's a great deal by Jocketty. The team addresses a glaring need and they didn't add a dime of payroll or touch anything resembling a top prospect.

OnBaseMachine
12-09-2008, 08:35 PM
If that's the case, it's a great deal by Jocketty. The team addresses a glaring need and they didn't add a dime of payroll or touch anything resembling a top prospect.

Plus, Hernandez is a Type A free agent and could net the Reds two draft picks next year. This is a very solid deal by Walt. Now hopefully he's working on finding a shortstop and outfielder.

VR
12-09-2008, 08:36 PM
pretty amazing. we get rid of Freel and improve the team at the same time. and we didn't really lose any key prospects.

99 sb's against last year, threw out 24%.

Let's hope he doesn't catch Homer Bailey.

Benihana
12-09-2008, 08:38 PM
Plus, Hernandez is a Type A free agent and could net the Reds two draft picks next year. This is a very solid deal by Walt. Now hopefully he's working on finding a shortstop and outfielder.

Doesn't he have to perform well this year to keep that Type A status? And wouldn't the Reds have to offer him arbitration (after they buy out his contract) even in that case (which he'd probably accept as a 34 year old catcher).

I'm still in favor of the deal, but I don't think his current Type A status will be much of a factor.

Mario-Rijo
12-09-2008, 08:42 PM
Doesn't he have to perform well this year to keep that Type A status? And wouldn't the Reds have to offer him arbitration (after they buy out his contract) even in that case (which he'd probably accept as a 34 year old catcher).

I'm still in favor of the deal, but I don't think his current Type A status will be much of a factor.

I agree with that. But I wonder if he doesn't perform very well does he become a type B and if so would the arbitration # come close to the contract salary if not bought out?

OnBaseMachine
12-09-2008, 08:44 PM
Unless his numbers fall completely off, he'll most likely remain a Type A free agent.

flyer85
12-09-2008, 08:45 PM
I agree with that. But I wonder if he doesn't perform very well does he become a type B and if so would the arbitration # come close to the contract salary if not bought out?IIRC, a player can't get cut more than 20% in arbitration

Az Red
12-09-2008, 08:45 PM
Good solid work by WJ. What's next?

GAC
12-09-2008, 08:45 PM
This is what Walt Jocketty does. ;)

Mario-Rijo
12-09-2008, 08:47 PM
IIRC, a player can't get cut more than 20% in arbitration

So really best case scenario is the economy rebounds Hernandez has an exceptional year, we decline the option and then offer arbitration. That's probably the only way it's a smart move to offer it.

RedsManRick
12-09-2008, 08:48 PM
I'm not up in arms or anything, I just think we're doing what fans of a team always do when their team makes a trade: playing up the value upside of the guy(s) they got and diminishing the value of the guy(s) they gave up.

The values of the sides here based on reasonable projections are close enough that it simply comes down to how the guys play in 2009 and if the prospects develop. I think he's roughly comparable to what we'll get from Hanigan and no matter what, there's only 700 PA to be had between them. I don't think Freel, Turner, Waring, and $2M is worth 200 extra PA of Hanigan. If Hernandez puts up his peak numbers again, it's a pretty clear win -- but I just don't see that happening. And I think there's a real risk of Hernandez continuing to decline, hitting .250/.300/.360, and still getting the lion's share of the PA's because he's the "proven vet".

My biggest concern remains our OF situation. I would've made Castillo my #2 catcher and focused elsewhere. I'm concerned that we're frittering away the room we have to maneuver and will be unable to do anything impactful with LF. As I said, deck chairs.

lollipopcurve
12-09-2008, 08:51 PM
I would've made Castillo my #2 catcher and focused elsewhere.

Plenty of time. They've made a run at Dye already...

We don't know how well Castillo catches.

redsfan30
12-09-2008, 08:54 PM
I'm not up in arms or anything, I just think we're doing what fans of a team always do when their team makes a trade: playing up the value upside of the guy(s) they got and diminishing the value of the guy(s) they gave up.

You've been here for four years now, you should know that if this place does not like an acquisition, it will let you know in no undertain terms.

Redszone rarely, if ever, collectively "likes" transactions.

CougarQuest
12-09-2008, 08:55 PM
:beerme: WJ :beerme:

Benihana
12-09-2008, 08:55 PM
The values of the sides here based on reasonable projections are close enough that it simply comes down to how the guys play in 2009 and if the prospects develop. My biggest concern remains our OF situation. I would've made Castillo my #2 catcher and focused elsewhere.

1. Making Castillo the #2 catcher leaves you with two HUGE question marks at one of the most important positions on the field, not to mention most likely well below average production.
2. Freel and Co. were not going to be primary trade chips to focus anywhere else. There is no reason why you can't "focus elsewhere" beginning now.

I applaud this trade. :clap:

SMcGavin
12-09-2008, 08:59 PM
My biggest concern remains our OF situation. I would've made Castillo my #2 catcher and focused elsewhere. I'm concerned that we're frittering away the room we have to maneuver and will be unable to do anything impactful with LF. As I said, deck chairs.

Wilkin Castillo is probably a worse hitter than Paul Bako. He's got a career .633 OPS in AAA, and all but 40 of those ABs were compiled last year at age 24. What happens if Hanigan's not who you think he is? Or if he gets hurt? No way can you go into the season with just Hanigan and Castillo, that's asking for disaster.

RedsManRick
12-09-2008, 08:59 PM
1. Making Castillo the #2 catcher leaves you with two HUGE question marks at one of the most important positions on the field, not to mention most likely well below average production.

Fair enough, I probably wouldn't be comfortable with that combo. But there are a handful of mediocre backup catchers out there who we could sign for less than the salary we took on and we would not have had to trade anybody. I guess it comes down to what sort of offensive numbers you expect from Hernandez; you're basically paying for the outside shot that an aging, declining catcher recaptures his youth.

2. Freel and Co. were not going to be primary trade chips to focus anywhere else. There is no reason why you can't "focus elsewhere" beginning now.[/QUOTE]

Nearly every trade needs bit parts. I won't sweat the loss of any of those 3, but that doesn't make them completely valueless. I'd hate for the Reds to drop out of the bidding or a trade for a real impact player because of the money we took on here.

I guess the fact that I keep posting makes it sounds like I'm more "upset" than I am. This is more of a verbose shrug than anything else. I guess more than anything else, I'm just hoping that this the tip of the iceberg instead of another "hey look -- we brought in some proven vets who know how to win!" type of offseason.

fearofpopvol1
12-09-2008, 09:00 PM
This isn't a sexy move, but I think it does improve the team. I think it puts our catching situation at at least league average, which is a huge improvement from last year. Overall, it's a good start.

I really am going to miss Freel though. I really did love his game, at least leading up to 2007. I do think his best days are done and he's reached his peak, but that guy was a lot of fun to watch while he was a Red.

What's next though? That's what I want to know.

Mario-Rijo
12-09-2008, 09:00 PM
I'm not up in arms or anything, I just think we're doing what fans of a team always do when their team makes a trade: playing up the value upside of the guy(s) they got and diminishing the value of the guy(s) they gave up.

I don't disagree with that completely in that it's typical of most fans to do this, not so much here.


The values of the sides here based on reasonable projections are close enough that it simply comes down to how the guys play in 2009 and if the prospects develop. My biggest concern remains our OF situation. I would've made Castillo my #2 catcher and focused elsewhere.

If Freel would have gotten anywhere near 450 PA's here we were doomed anyway. Freel has no upside going there either. Hernandez does have upside coming here. A Castillo/Hanigan combo is arguably no better than a Ross/Bako one. An Hernandez/Hanigan has a good chance too be marginally better while spending only a few million and no major prospects.

In this case I'd say it's reasonable for us to assume we got a deal that suits us pretty well without losing anything of substance.

SMcGavin
12-09-2008, 09:03 PM
In this case I'd say it's reasonable for us to assume we got a deal that suits us pretty well without losing anything of substance.

I'd think that's a pretty accurate conclusion.

reds44
12-09-2008, 09:04 PM
Wilkin Castillo, noy including the fact he can't hit, would in no way hold up behind the plate for an extended period of time. He's not big enough. As a third catcher he'd be fine, but nobody wants the Reds carrying three catchers.

Benihana
12-09-2008, 09:05 PM
Nearly every trade needs bit parts. I won't sweat the loss of any of those 3, but that doesn't make them completely valueless. I'd hate for the Reds to drop out of the bidding or a trade for a real impact player because of the money we took on here.

I guess the fact that I keep posting makes it sounds like I'm more "upset" than I am. This is more of a verbose shrug than anything else. I guess more than anything else, I'm just hoping that this the tip of the iceberg instead of another "hey look -- we brought in some proven vets who know how to win!" type of offseason.

I don't disagree with your last sentence.

As far as the beginning of your post (and the end of mine), Freel, Turner, and Waring were nearly valueless. The former had arguably negative value due to his contract and the latter two guys were replacement-level prospects. You can sub guys like Rosales, Henry, Cumberland, and many, many others and get the same net result. By most accounts, the Reds took on $2MM in this deal. I hardly believe that will prevent them from making further trades.

reds44
12-09-2008, 09:06 PM
Nearly every trade needs bit parts. I won't sweat the loss of any of those 3, but that doesn't make them completely valueless. I'd hate for the Reds to drop out of the bidding or a trade for a real impact player because of the money we took on here.

I guess the fact that I keep posting makes it sounds like I'm more "upset" than I am. This is more of a verbose shrug than anything else. I guess more than anything else, I'm just hoping that this the tip of the iceberg instead of another "hey look -- we brought in some proven vets who know how to win!" type of offseason.
The Reds didn't take on any money.

M2
12-09-2008, 09:31 PM
My biggest concern remains our OF situation. I would've made Castillo my #2 catcher and focused elsewhere. I'm concerned that we're frittering away the room we have to maneuver and will be unable to do anything impactful with LF. As I said, deck chairs.

C, SS, OF, bullpen, possibly a 5th starter

Jocketty's got to do all of it this winter, at least if he wants to turn around this club. As membengal noted, this may finally be the winter where we get to judge the totality of the moves rather than the one-off impact of any single move.

He's managed to grab what might be a solid catcher for three sub-prime trading chits and an extra $1M. That shouldn't prevent him from doing anything else. In fact, I'd say this is the exact kind of trade you make when you've got other, more pressing priorities.

4256 Hits
12-09-2008, 09:32 PM
I'd prefer to hang onto Heisey as I think he could develop into a decent major leaguer. I'd offer Freel + Watson and see if they bite. If they absolutely insist on Heisey being in the deal then I may bite, especially if he really is a Type A FA.

It doesn't matter if he is a type A because there is no way the Reds will offer arb because if they do they are on the hook for atleast 80% of 8.5 million. There is no way he would get close to that as a FA so he would accept arb.