PDA

View Full Version : Rotoworld predicts Willy Taveras as Reds CFer, leadoff hitter



savafan
12-11-2008, 01:50 AM
The Denver Post looks at Willy Taveras as a lock to be non-tendered after a proposed deal with the Nationals fell apart.
It figured that the Rockies would be able to trade Taveras, but nothing has materialized. He'll be a lot more popular as a free agent, and we could see him ending up as the Reds' center fielder and leadoff hitter.

Tom Servo
12-11-2008, 01:51 AM
Yeah I saw that but I'd prefer to think that Walt won't go that way.

*BaseClogger*
12-11-2008, 01:58 AM
Taveras, a right-handed hitter, actually has better career splits against RHP (.287/.334/.336) than LHP (.271/.322/.340), so a platoon with Dickerson should be out of the question. With Dusty's recent comments, I am confident he would play Taveras full time in CF in favor of Dickerson and bat him leadoff. I am just hopeful Jocketty doesn't think much of Taveras's defense...

OnBaseMachine
12-11-2008, 01:58 AM
I want absolutely no part of Willy Taveras as a starter. I will say this though, I prefer Taveras over Norris Hopper. I don't like either of them as a player but if had to choose one of the two, I'd take Taveras since he's a better defender and has more speed.

corkedbat
12-11-2008, 02:05 AM
:scared:


Make it stop!

Reds Fanatic
12-11-2008, 02:10 AM
I read the Taveras deal with Washington fell apart because one of the players failed their physical.

corkedbat
12-11-2008, 02:12 AM
I want absolutely no part of Willy Taveras as a starter. I will say this though, I prefer Taveras over Norris Hopper. I don't like either of them as a player but if had to choose one of the two, I'd take Taveras since he's a better defender and has more speed.

In a comparison, I'd rather have Taveras than Hopper too - as a defensive backup CF - but Dusty would put him in CF and lead him off for 4mos.

Just say no to both!

corkedbat
12-11-2008, 02:13 AM
I read the Taveras deal with Washington fell apart because one of the players failed their physical.

Go get him Leatherboy!

AmarilloRed
12-11-2008, 02:15 AM
I think the Reds will end up getting a CF before the off-season is done. I'm just not sure who it will be at this point.

Krusty
12-11-2008, 03:11 AM
You had to figure that once Freel was dealt that Uncle Walt had a centerfielder in mind that he was looking to acquire. I think if he can get the Rockies to pick up the majority of Taveras' contract, they will give up a prospect or two.

WMR
12-11-2008, 07:26 AM
What a horrible idea this would be...

only bright spot is that it would hasten Dusty's eventual firing.

Krusty
12-11-2008, 07:34 AM
What a horrible idea this would be...

only bright spot is that it would hasten Dusty's eventual firing.


Supposedly that Taveras for Redding deal is back on.

Topcat
12-11-2008, 07:59 AM
I want no part of Taveras, he is a shinier version of Cory Patterson, rather that act doent have a sequel quite frankly.

Ltlabner
12-11-2008, 08:08 AM
YEAR NAME AGE PA EqA OBP SLG VORP RAR RAP OUTR SB CS SB%
2008 Willy Taveras 26 538 .238 .308 .296 2.0 4.2 -19.2 .67658 68 7 90.7%
2007 Willy Taveras 25 408 .261 .367 .382 16.4 12.5 -1.8 .62745 33 9 78.6%

My usual assortment of numbers with a couple of new ones thrown in.

I added OUTR, or Batting Outs per Plate Appearance. Pretty self-explanatory.

Also have the stolen base and caught stealing numbers. Figured we might as well look at them since you know The Dusty is drooling over "speed at the top of the order".

Here's a blurb from BP about WT in 2007. Does nothing to inspire confidence.


He hits enough singles to give him a little bit of a batting average, and of course he`s a fast runner, but as a regular, Taveras is something of a disaster. He has no power and little patience, and his occasional stolen bases do nothing to make up for that. Putting him in the everyday lineup and batting him leadoff or second, thereby giving him a higher percentage of the team`s plate appearances, is just doing the opposing pitcher`s work for him. Taveras`s speed does make him a plus defender, something that will help cover the gaps at Coors, but he won`t provide the Rockies with a top-of-the-order hitter any better-equipped to help them than Juan Pierre was.

If a Glock was too my head and the choice was Juan Pierre or Willy Taveras I suppose I'd go with Taveras. Then again, I might go for the .40S&W slug instead of either.

With Taveras's speed and his position of choice, it virtually guarantees 350 to 400 PA's at leadoff atop The Dusty's lineup. If he is impatient and repeats his 2008 OBP performance he will be another disaster and will soak up untold leadoff PA's until late July as the Reds sink deeper and deeper in the standings.

If he can find a way to ignore The Dusty's insistence that swinging at everything is somehow a good idea, and achieve the 2007 style of OBP then we might have something. Actually, if there were someway to guarentee he could reproduce 2007 in 2009 I'd be pretty jazzed to take the leadoff spot from minus a bazallion VORP from last year to what Taveras would produce.

2006 he put up .333 OBP and OUTR of .66 and in 2005 his OBP was .325 and OUTR of .659. You may scoff of my bowing at the alter of OBP for these two years, but for a guy you can bet the farm is going to lead off, getting on base is all I care about. Neither of those two years is overly impressive.

Unfortunately, with The Dusty at the helm, Taveras is likely to be managed to a lower OBP and thus be ineffective at the plate.

His speed is nice on the base paths. While the stolen base isn't the weapon it once was, the Reds should be employing speed more often than they have.

In the field his speed could be handy. While Patterson was abysmal at the plate, it was nice to have someone patrolling centerfield who can actually track and catch a fly ball.

While I'd rather have Taveras over the dreaded misery that is Juan Pierre, I'd also rather have my 84 year old grandmother in centerfield rather than Juan Pierre. But, in general, I'd rather have a better option than Taveras.

camisadelgolf
12-11-2008, 08:43 AM
There are conflicting reports about the Reds' interest in Willy Taveras. The Rocky Mountain News (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/nov/11/rockies-atkins-interests-reds/?partner=RSS) said the Reds don't want Taveras because of his low OBP, but Ken Rosenthal (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8782314/Rockies-not-done-dealing-after-Holliday-trade?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=49) said that the Reds have interest.

Both of these reports came shortly after the Matt Holliday trade, so maybe a lot has changed since then. Maybe Jocketty is interested in Taveras but is pretending not to be in order to lower Taveras' value. However, Jocketty is known for being open about sabermetrics, and I'm sure he realizes how important OBP is, so I think Rosenthal is just wrong about his report.

REDREAD
12-11-2008, 10:43 AM
You had to figure that once Freel was dealt that Uncle Walt had a centerfielder in mind that he was looking to acquire. I think if he can get the Rockies to pick up the majority of Taveras' contract, they will give up a prospect or two.

If Tavaras gets non-tendered, the Reds can try to sign them at their price.

Would people be upset with Tavaras on a one year year at maybe 3 million?

Heath
12-11-2008, 10:46 AM
If it was Wayne Krvisky, I'd be worried.

Jocketty, not so.

If Tavares showed up, I would venture that it would be on the cheap and Chris Dickerson would beat him out.

Ltlabner
12-11-2008, 10:54 AM
If Tavaras gets non-tendered, the Reds can try to sign them at their price.

Would people be upset with Tavaras on a one year year at maybe 3 million?

Maybe more like $1mil and some sort of binding contract with The Dusty to never mention 'be agressive' within earshot of Willy. I'd room him with Votto and make job one with the hitting coach to work with Willy on plate discipline/working the count.

I could live with that as long as its a true platoon.

I don't have much faith that The Dusty would live up to his end of the bargin.

REDREAD
12-11-2008, 11:34 AM
Maybe more like $1mil


IMO, the difference between giving him 1 million and 3 million isn't likely going to hamper the Reds that much. I think Patterson got approximately 2 million last year.

Heck, Freel was due to make around 5 million. I wouldn't give Tavaraz that much, but I'd give him 3 million for OF depth.

I do agree, Tavarez would have to win a job vs Dickerson based on merit.

The nice thing about signing Taveraz, is now your worse case OF (no other moves made) is Dickerson in LF, Taverez in CF, and Bruce in RF. At bare minimum, you've got a very strong defensive OF there. Ideally, you'd want some more offense out there, but at least it's an upgrade. If Walt later adds a LF, you can have Dickerson and Tavarez battle it out for CF and end up with a pretty good 4th OF on the bench.

camisadelgolf
12-11-2008, 11:43 AM
IMO, the difference between giving him 1 million and 3 million isn't likely going to hamper the Reds that much. I think Patterson got approximately 2 million last year.

Heck, Freel was due to make around 5 million. I wouldn't give Tavaraz that much, but I'd give him 3 million for OF depth.

I do agree, Tavarez would have to win a job vs Dickerson based on merit.

The nice thing about signing Taveraz, is now your worse case OF (no other moves made) is Dickerson in LF, Taverez in CF, and Bruce in RF. At bare minimum, you've got a very strong defensive OF there. Ideally, you'd want some more offense out there, but at least it's an upgrade. If Walt later adds a LF, you can have Dickerson and Tavarez battle it out for CF and end up with a pretty good 4th OF on the bench.

I think RedsZone's biggest worry about acquiring Tavares is how Dusty Baker would use him. Odds are, because he's a speedy center fielder with a history of success (in the uneducated fans' eyes), he would probably lead off, despite being the most likely player to lead the team in outs.

Raisor
12-11-2008, 11:54 AM
.

I do agree, Tavarez would have to win a job vs Dickerson based on merit.

.

If Tavarez is on the roster, Dusty will play him no matter what Dickerson does in Spring Training.

Best way to stop that is to not put Tavarez on the roster.

nate
12-11-2008, 12:02 PM
IMO, the difference between giving him 1 million and 3 million isn't likely going to hamper the Reds that much. I think Patterson got approximately 2 million last year.

Heck, Freel was due to make around 5 million. I wouldn't give Tavaraz that much, but I'd give him 3 million for OF depth.

I do agree, Tavarez would have to win a job vs Dickerson based on merit.

The nice thing about signing Taveraz, is now your worse case OF (no other moves made) is Dickerson in LF, Taverez in CF, and Bruce in RF. At bare minimum, you've got a very strong defensive OF there. Ideally, you'd want some more offense out there, but at least it's an upgrade. If Walt later adds a LF, you can have Dickerson and Tavarez battle it out for CF and end up with a pretty good 4th OF on the bench.

Well, the question is, could that $3mm improve the Reds more if used elsewhere?

Kc61
12-11-2008, 12:06 PM
Well, the question is, could that $3mm improve the Reds more if used elsewhere?

The Reds are incredibly thin in the outfield. They have Jay Bruce. They have Chris Dickerson. They have Norris Hopper. That is it.

So, the $3mm -- probably closer to $10 million -- needs to be spent to get some outfielders.

I don't know what is meant by "elsewhere" but be sure it will mostly go to outfielders.

My guess is Hairston is plan A for another centerfielder. If he doesn't sign, then they may look at someone like Taveras, if he's still available. They probably have others in mind as well.

In addition, they will likely add a starting left fielder. And maybe they will add another backup, not sure they view Hopper as a sure thing to be on the squad.

So as many as three outfielders could be acquired between now and spring training.

edabbs44
12-11-2008, 12:08 PM
If Tavarez is on the roster, Dusty will play him no matter what Dickerson does in Spring Training.

Best way to stop that is to not put Tavarez on the roster.

Another way to stop it is to educate Baker.

Chip R
12-11-2008, 12:14 PM
Another way to stop it is to educate Baker.


Sure. We'll just e-mail him and tell him that players with low OBPs shouldn't lead off even if they are fast and play CF. Problem solved.

flyer85
12-11-2008, 12:20 PM
Taveres might make sense in a huge CF(which Coors is). GABP is anything but that and if Taveres doesn't make sense as an everyday player for the Rockies then he does not anywhere else. A 600 OPS playing 81 Coors Field boggles the mind.

bucksfan2
12-11-2008, 12:26 PM
Taveres might make sense in a huge CF(which Coors is). GABP is anything but that and if Taveres doesn't make sense as an everyday player for the Rockies then he does not anywhere else. A 600 OPS playing 81 Coors Field boggles the mind.

I would be more concerned about Taveres and his OBP rather than his OPS. As a leadoff hitter his job would be to get on base not hit the ball out of the park. Im not saying that his OBP is anything to write home about just the way I would judge a speedy leadoff CF.

edabbs44
12-11-2008, 12:26 PM
Sure. We'll just e-mail him and tell him that players with low OBPs shouldn't lead off even if they are fast and play CF. Problem solved.

No, that's Jocketty's job.

fearofpopvol1
12-11-2008, 12:35 PM
I think RedsZone's biggest worry about acquiring Tavares is how Dusty Baker would use him. Odds are, because he's a speedy center fielder with a history of success (in the uneducated fans' eyes), he would probably lead off, despite being the most likely player to lead the team in outs.

This is exactly what it is.

WebScorpion
12-11-2008, 02:16 PM
Sure. We'll just e-mail him and tell him that players with low OBPs shouldn't lead off even if they are fast and play CF. Problem solved.

No, no, no...you have to get HANK AARON to E-mail him and tell him that. Apparently, that's the only person Dusty listens to. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/basic/ty.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

TRF
12-11-2008, 02:18 PM
Isn't Tavarez spanish for Patterson?

same as it ever was, same as it ever was..

Tom Servo
12-11-2008, 02:31 PM
same as it ever was, same as it ever was..
http://content.ytmnd.com/content/1/a/3/1a3ddc9ca968c54c73ca79845d58684d.gif

Ltlabner
12-11-2008, 03:37 PM
I think RedsZone's biggest worry about acquiring Tavares is how Dusty Baker would use him. Odds are, because he's a speedy center fielder with a history of success (in the uneducated fans' eyes), he would probably lead off, despite being the most likely player to lead the team in outs.

Bingo. Taveras might be a useful part. The Dusty would likely try to make him a starting CF and ride the "speed and CF leads off" horse until our eyes bleed. He'd go from useful part to anchor in a matter of months.


I would be more concerned about Taveres and his OBP rather than his OPS. As a leadoff hitter his job would be to get on base not hit the ball out of the park. Im not saying that his OBP is anything to write home about just the way I would judge a speedy leadoff CF.

Same here. While you are only a leadoff batter once per game, I'd rather not start off the first inning with an out 65-70% of the time. Of corse power is always nice, but for a player like Taveras his OBP is the sole source of his offensive value.


Isn't Tavarez spanish for Patterson?

I wouldn't say he's Patterson, but he's definitely Pattersonesque and could have a similar outcome if utilized in the same manner as Mr. Eyebrows.

Heck, Patterson wouldn't have been Patterson last year if someone with a lick of sense didn't lead him off 250+ times.

Chip R
12-11-2008, 03:46 PM
No, no, no...you have to get HANK AARON to E-mail him and tell him that. Apparently, that's the only person Dusty listens to. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/basic/ty.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)


Does Dusty know Hank Aaron? My knowledge has been a bit fuzzy on that since he's been here. ;)

BRM
12-11-2008, 03:59 PM
I wouldn't say he's Patterson, but he's definitely Pattersonesque and could have a similar outcome if utilized in the same manner as Mr. Eyebrows.

Heck, Patterson wouldn't have been Patterson last year if someone with a lick of sense didn't lead him off 250+ times.

He might be Pattersonesque at the plate but I'd argue CP is the better defender by a pretty good margin.

wheels
12-11-2008, 04:41 PM
Oh my goodness.

A right handed, poorer fielding Corey Patterson will surely be patrolling CF for my beloveds next season.

I know it's gonna happen because it's the absolute worst case scenario.

Depending on who they nab to play LF, this could be one of the worst offensive ballclubs in Baseball next season.

Joseph
12-11-2008, 06:42 PM
With the Reds taking on the kid from Colorado in the Rule 5, I can see a scenario where we trade the Rox a player for Willy T and the rights to the R5 kid.

Tom Servo
12-11-2008, 06:47 PM
With the Reds taking on the kid from Colorado in the Rule 5, I can see a scenario where we trade the Rox a player for Willy T and the rights to the R5 kid.
Patton's already moved on to the Baby Bears.

Cyclone792
12-11-2008, 06:52 PM
Oh my goodness.

A right handed, poorer fielding Corey Patterson will surely be patrolling CF for my beloveds next season.

I know it's gonna happen because it's the absolute worst case scenario.

Depending on who they nab to play LF, this could be one of the worst offensive ballclubs in Baseball next season.

It's depressing, isn't it?

Joseph
12-11-2008, 08:25 PM
Patton's already moved on to the Baby Bears.

Miss a minute, miss a lot.

Ltlabner
12-11-2008, 08:31 PM
Ltlabner predicts members of Redszone will be jumping from the upper deck of GABP when Taveras gets 400 leadoff plate appearances while posting a .300 OBP

wheels
12-11-2008, 08:35 PM
Ltlabner predicts members of Redszone will be jumping from the upper deck of GABP when Taveras gets 400 leadoff plate appearances while posting a .300 OBP

I will be leading the charge, to be sure.

Heath
12-12-2008, 01:32 AM
I will be leading the charge, to be sure.

I won't be. Someone has to man the controls around here.

corkedbat
12-12-2008, 01:47 AM
If Willy Taveras could

a) be held to a strict platoon with Dickerson and only start against LHers

b) come in as a defensive OF on his non-starts as a defensive repalcement to guard a lead - shifting Dickerson to LF

c) be required to try and bunt for a hit at least once a start

d) OBP at least .350 and steal bases at a 90% (+) clip

e) hit 8th

he might have value, but he would come out in one of his first spring games, have three or four hits , steal several bases, score 3 or 4 runs and Dusty would be smitten the rest of the year - no matter if he hit .240 and had a sub-.300 OBP

BRM
12-12-2008, 10:07 AM
Ltlabner predicts members of Redszone will be jumping from the upper deck of GABP when Taveras gets 400 leadoff plate appearances while posting a .300 OBP

Nah, he should be able to put up at least a .310 OBP.