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View Full Version : Don't revert back to the old ways...no to Burrell/Dye



NorrisHopper30
12-11-2008, 05:47 PM
The last few years all we have done is complained about the outfield defense of Adam Dunn, will we fall into the same trap by acquiring Pat Burrell or Dye? I sure hope not.

How can we change this? TRADE. Don't overpay for free agents, I'd rather overpay for talent with prospects. I'm not sure how much it would cost but I'd be contacting the Toronto Blue Jays about Alex Rios. Great arm, above average speed, above average power, still young. He has the potential to be a 5 tool outfielder. Combine him with Dickerson and Bruce and you have a quality outfield defensively and offensively - and all three have speed.

Anyone have any other OFers that should be targeted that are similar to Rios? I know people aren't high on Willy Tavares, but IF he could be had for cheap I'd take his speed in a heart beat.

Let me know what you think.

cjs07484
12-11-2008, 06:14 PM
Rios would be an excellent pick up, but the Jays are going to ask for a huge package. The first name they are giong to ask for in that package would be Cueto and the conversation stops there.

fewfirstchoice
12-11-2008, 06:15 PM
Rios would be mu #1 target for the Reds to go after. A outfield with he and Bruce in would look awesome. You could throw a fast defensive CF in there doesnt really matter who as long as he has good D and the OF will be set.

redsfandan
12-11-2008, 08:14 PM
... I'm not sure how much it would cost but I'd be contacting the Toronto Blue Jays about Alex Rios. Great arm, above average speed, above average power, still young. He has the potential to be a 5 tool outfielder. Combine him with Dickerson and Bruce and you have a quality outfield defensively and offensively - and all three have speed.

Anyone have any other OFers that should be targeted that are similar to Rios? ...

rios is a good player but i'd rather have hermida. hermida also has alot of all around talent (power, speed, defense) but will be MUCH cheaper and probably won't cost as much in a trade either.

NorrisHopper30
12-11-2008, 09:49 PM
rios is a good player but i'd rather have hermida. hermida also has alot of all around talent (power, speed, defense) but will be MUCH cheaper and probably won't cost as much in a trade either.

Is Hermida a RHB?

BamaRed
12-11-2008, 10:04 PM
Is Hermida a RHB?

No

Orodle
12-11-2008, 10:05 PM
your comparing Dunn's defense to Dye's?

WildcatFan
12-11-2008, 11:59 PM
Players like Rios are too tough to come by with a trade because their teams understand how valuable they are. Think Jay Bruce. Another team would have to exhaust all of their super prospects for you to trade him, and that might not even do it.

I think that Jock's plan is to build around your core group of young players but supplement them with proven veterans who can still play. That's why I like Dye as a middle-of-the-order presence who will allow Bruce and Votto to see pitches. Opposing teams already know what Jermaine Dye can do to them — they'll be much more likely to take their chances with the young bucks. I think a lineup of...

Hairston/Dickerson
Phillips
Votto
Dye
Bruce
Encarnacion
Hernandez
Keppinger

...looks pretty formidable. And you won't have to sell the farm to do it.

Emin3mShady07
12-12-2008, 12:30 AM
your comparing Dunn's defense to Dye's?

Well, actually Dye was worse on defense last year than Dunn based on the +/- system. http://fieldingbible.com/ however, Dunn did play 65 innings in RF and 128 innings at 1B with the snakes so if he played those innings in LF he would probably be much closer to Dye in the rankings.

If I was Walt, I wouldn't focus on adding Dye or Burrell though. I would go all in for JJ Hardy. The reds give up something like Bailey, Stubbs, Roenicke and another A ball prospect and I think the reds would be serious contenders next year. That is a lot to give up indeed, but it appears the reds are going for it all in 2009, and I believe this would be a huge piece to the puzzle. Last year, Kepp was -14 plays at SS and Hardy was +19 plays. That is a 25 run swing in defense alone and a run saved is worth more than a run scored. Hardy will probably OPS around .800 (and GABP is a slight upgrade over hitting in Miller Park) next year and that is well above average for a SS. He did post a VORP of 40.4 runs last year which is quite good, so he would most likely be an offensive upgrade at SS too. Hardy is not too expensive, and would leave the reds with enough cash to still go after a FA outfielder like Burrell.

However, I would focus that money elsewhere. I would sign, my boy, Joe Crede. Last year EE was -21 plays at 3rd and in limited action, Crede was +13. That is another 25 run swing on defense alone from last year. Crede might be a little worse than EE on offense, but who knows he may have another 2006, I doubt it though. Even so, I woud say a .770 OPS for Crede is Reasonable and because of his defense, he is still a valuable addition to the Reds. Then the Reds move EE to left and he probably would be a slight upgrade over Dunn defensively, but he most likey would not be as good on offense, but he too could grow a little and OPS about .840. Ideally, the reds get more production from guys like Jay Bruce and Joey Votto and Chris Dickerson outproduces Corey Patterson, which should not be too tall of a task and Ramon Hernandez is an upgrade over paul Bako. And if Crede breaks down, you have keppinger to fill the void at 3B. Kepp has got to be at least +/- 0 at third base because it was the range that hurt him at SS, not his actual glove. So kepp would still be a defensive upgrade over EE and with any luck Crede plays more than half the season like he did this year and puts up outstanding defensive numbers. Kepp is about the same offensively as Crede, except kepp has a higher OBP and less slugging.

I realize these moves do not net the Huge cleanup RH bat that everyone wants, but I still believe the lineup could be pretty respectable, and this is how I would structure it:

Dickerson
EE
Votto
Hardy
Bruce
Phillips
Crede
Hernandez

There is no huge bat, but from top to bottom it is filled with solid hitters.

redsfandan
12-12-2008, 08:55 AM
Is Hermida a RHB?

This thread didn't specify ONLY righthand hitters so I threw him out there. If you insist on one that's fine but I don't think i'm the only one that thinks that is overrated. Plus we need power so you threw out Taveras?

BEETTLEBUG
12-12-2008, 03:11 PM
What would it take to get Jose Guillen ? He is younger than Dye but how is his defense?

redsfandan
12-12-2008, 03:18 PM
he may be available but he's only a couple years younger, i think he's slipped all around (offensively and defensively) and he's owed $24 million over the next two years. Add in what he'd cost in a trade and I'll pass.

cjs07484
12-12-2008, 03:55 PM
and guillen is not very good in the club house... pass.

Slyder
12-12-2008, 04:19 PM
he may be available but he's only a couple years younger, i think he's slipped all around (offensively and defensively) and he's owed $24 million over the next two years. Add in what he'd cost in a trade and I'll pass.

I loved Guillen when he was here. He actually showed something very few people on that team did... Emotion. He showed like he cared, but since he left theres a reason KC already wants to trade him and been with how many teams in how many years? We saw the best of Jose Guillen while he was here now the bad outnumbers those. Pass.

WillRich
12-12-2008, 11:04 PM
Willy Taveras wouldn't be too bad of a pick-up...incredible speed

Orodle
12-15-2008, 12:48 PM
Well, actually Dye was worse on defense last year than Dunn based on the +/- system. http://fieldingbible.com/ however, Dunn did play 65 innings in RF and 128 innings at 1B with the snakes so if he played those innings in LF he would probably be much closer to Dye in the rankings.

If I was Walt, I wouldn't focus on adding Dye or Burrell though. I would go all in for JJ Hardy. The reds give up something like Bailey, Stubbs, Roenicke and another A ball prospect and I think the reds would be serious contenders next year. That is a lot to give up indeed, but it appears the reds are going for it all in 2009, and I believe this would be a huge piece to the puzzle. Last year, Kepp was -14 plays at SS and Hardy was +19 plays. That is a 25 run swing in defense alone and a run saved is worth more than a run scored. Hardy will probably OPS around .800 (and GABP is a slight upgrade over hitting in Miller Park) next year and that is well above average for a SS. He did post a VORP of 40.4 runs last year which is quite good, so he would most likely be an offensive upgrade at SS too. Hardy is not too expensive, and would leave the reds with enough cash to still go after a FA outfielder like Burrell.

However, I would focus that money elsewhere. I would sign, my boy, Joe Crede. Last year EE was -21 plays at 3rd and in limited action, Crede was +13. That is another 25 run swing on defense alone from last year. Crede might be a little worse than EE on offense, but who knows he may have another 2006, I doubt it though. Even so, I woud say a .770 OPS for Crede is Reasonable and because of his defense, he is still a valuable addition to the Reds. Then the Reds move EE to left and he probably would be a slight upgrade over Dunn defensively, but he most likey would not be as good on offense, but he too could grow a little and OPS about .840. Ideally, the reds get more production from guys like Jay Bruce and Joey Votto and Chris Dickerson outproduces Corey Patterson, which should not be too tall of a task and Ramon Hernandez is an upgrade over paul Bako. And if Crede breaks down, you have keppinger to fill the void at 3B. Kepp has got to be at least +/- 0 at third base because it was the range that hurt him at SS, not his actual glove. So kepp would still be a defensive upgrade over EE and with any luck Crede plays more than half the season like he did this year and puts up outstanding defensive numbers. Kepp is about the same offensively as Crede, except kepp has a higher OBP and less slugging.

I realize these moves do not net the Huge cleanup RH bat that everyone wants, but I still believe the lineup could be pretty respectable, and this is how I would structure it:

Dickerson
EE
Votto
Hardy
Bruce
Phillips
Crede
Hernandez

There is no huge bat, but from top to bottom it is filled with solid hitters.


The fielding bible is easily flawed if it has Dunn over Dye in defense. And anyone agreeing with it obviously has not seen enough of Dunn or Dye in the outfield. Is it the same field statistic that had Tori Hunter as the worst defender a few years ago?

Emin3mShady07
12-15-2008, 01:47 PM
The fielding bible is easily flawed if it has Dunn over Dye in defense. And anyone agreeing with it obviously has not seen enough of Dunn or Dye in the outfield. Is it the same field statistic that had Tori Hunter as the worst defender a few years ago?

OK, I took this directly off of the fielding bible's website:

Quote:
My book, The Fielding Bible, goes into great length (ad nauseum to some) describing the new fielding system we developed at Baseball Info Solutions, the Plus/Minus System. Video Scouts at BIS review video of every play of every major league game and record detailed information on each play, such as the location of each batted ball, the speed, the type of hit, etc. Using this in-depth data, we’re able to figure out how each player compares to his peers at his position. How often does Derek Jeter field that softly batted ball located 20 feet to the right of the normal shortstop position, for example, compared to all other major league shortstops?

A player gets credit (a "plus" number) if he makes a play that at least one other player at his position missed during the season, and he loses credit (a "minus" number) if he misses a play that at least one player made. The size of the credit is directly related to how often players make the play. Each play is looked at individually, and a score is given for each play. Sum up all the plays for each player at his position and you get his total plus/minus for the season. A total plus/minus score near zero means the player is average. A score above zero is above average and a negative score is below average. Adam Everett turned in the highest score we’ve had in four years of using the system with a +43 at shortstop in 2006. That means he made 43 more plays than the average MLB shortstop would make.

The charts on the next page summarize the leaders in plus/minus by position for the last three years and for 2006 by itself.

End Quote

And like I said, the fielding bible is based on the number of chances to make a play that a fielder has. Obviously, if a fielder spends more time out in the field at a specific position, he can rack up a larger absolute value, whether is more negative or more positive similar to the reason why Dunn was not so bad this year in LF. And I did have the luxury of MLB extra innings last year and I did watch both Dunn and Dye play in the field and they both were terrible. Make no mistake, Dye is not a defensive upgrade over Dunn and Dye is also several years older. And no, this stat never ranked Torii Hunter the worst, he was actually +29 plays from 2004-2006, but after '06 hunter began to age and his defense suffered because of it, so he is not a greatly negative CF, but he is not as good as he once was.

WildcatFan
12-15-2008, 01:47 PM
Dunn was certainly underrated as a fielder. He was not a good defensive outfielder by any stretch of the imagination, but to hear the reports about him you would think that he was kicked back in a lawn chair in left field or would throw the ball into the stands trying to hit the cutoff man. He is obviously a serviceable left fielder, even if he can't make a diving grab.

NorrisHopper30
12-15-2008, 03:31 PM
This thread didn't specify ONLY righthand hitters so I threw him out there. If you insist on one that's fine but I don't think i'm the only one that thinks that is overrated. Plus we need power so you threw out Taveras?

I was just curious. I am a Taveras fan and think we should pick him up if the price is reasonable. I love speed.

redsfandan
12-15-2008, 03:35 PM
I have no problem with Taveras IF he's a backup and doesn't cost much. But only as a backup.

bigredbunter
12-15-2008, 03:53 PM
I have no problem with Taveras IF he's a backup and doesn't cost much. But only as a backup.

Yeah...you can't trust Dusty not to give him 400ABs though,,,

BLEEDS
12-15-2008, 04:08 PM
Yeah...you can't trust Dusty not to give him 400ABs though,,,

DING DING DING - WE HAVE A WINNER!!

That's the problem with these "back-ups/4th OF-er" types and this Organization.

In a vacuum, it would be FINE to take a flier on them - unfortunately the term "flier" on this team is 4-5 months of mendoza-line performance, crippling the team in the process, all on a guaranteed contract.

I thought WJ was smarter than that. But, after hearing what is ALLEGEDLY serious talk about Tavares, I really have to question the man.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

bigredbunter
12-15-2008, 04:15 PM
DING DING DING - WE HAVE A WINNER!!

That's the problem with these "back-ups/4th OF-er" types and this Organization.

In a vacuum, it would be FINE to take a flier on them - unfortunately the term "flier" on this team is 4-5 months of mendoza-line performance, crippling the team in the process, all on a guaranteed contract.

I thought WJ was smarter than that. But, after hearing what is ALLEGEDLY serious talk about Tavares, I really have to question the man.

PEACE

-BLEEDS


Hopefully WJ learned his lesson with the Patterson experiment.

WildcatFan
12-15-2008, 04:18 PM
Yeah, I'm not keen on Taveras either for that reason. I think we can all agree he shouldn't be the opening day center fielder, but who's to say Dusty won't make that happen? 366 ABs for Corey Patterson effectively evaporated my faith in Baker to hammer out a lineup.

redsfandan
12-15-2008, 04:18 PM
Patterson wasn't Walt's acquisition.

NorrisHopper30
12-15-2008, 04:33 PM
Stop with the Patterson to Taveras comparisons, it's an insult to Taveras. Taveras' speed(a 10:1 steal to cs ratio ) is on a completely different level than Patterson (14 steals, 9 cs). Taveras' OBP and avg were much higher than Patterson's, yet they weren't impressive. I say take the chance if the price is right..RedsZone is bashing the man way too hard IMO.

Your points about Dusty do worry me though, if Willy didn't pan out - would he keep starting him? Probably :(.

shredda2000
12-15-2008, 04:36 PM
Maybe this has been suggested but...would a Taveras/Dickerson platoon be out of the question...with Taveras being speed off the bench when not playing?

Just my thoughts...

BLEEDS
12-15-2008, 04:40 PM
Actually, Patterson is - as sad as this is to say - overall an actually BETTER player than Tavares.

Tavares has no SLG to speak of, which totally negates his usefulness the other 3-4 times he comes to the plate.

Tavares couldn't provide a VARP over 0 in Coors field, how in the world is that of any value to the Reds?!?! Struggling to be Average is not what we should be acquiring, not in CF. His Glove is also rated at or below Average. CFP, for all his faults, is probably one of THE BEST Defensive CF-ers in all of baseball.

I'm now going to go throw up since I just defended CFP, albeit only against Wily Tavares.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

NorrisHopper30
12-15-2008, 04:46 PM
Actually, Patterson is - as sad as this is to say - overall an actually BETTER player than Tavares.

Tavares has no SLG to speak of, which totally negates his usefulness the other 3-4 times he comes to the plate.

Tavares couldn't provide a VARP over 0 in Coors field, how in the world is that of any value to the Reds?!?! Struggling to be Average is not what we should be acquiring, not in CF. His Glove is also rated at or below Average. CFP, for all his faults, is probably one of THE BEST Defensive CF-ers in all of baseball.

I'm now going to go throw up since I just defended CFP, albeit only against Wily Tavares.

PEACE

-BLEEDS
Since when did SLG determine how good a player is? Taveras gets on base more, got more steals, scored more runs, etc.

redsfandan
12-15-2008, 04:48 PM
Maybe this has been suggested but...would a Taveras/Dickerson platoon be out of the question...with Taveras being speed off the bench when not playing?

Just my thoughts...

I proposed a Rivera/Dickerson/Taveras rotation for center and left in one of these threads. If we picked up Wigginton too I'd be even happier.



I'm now going to go throw up since I just defended CFP, albeit only against Wily Tavares.


:laugh:

WildcatFan
12-15-2008, 05:26 PM
Would you rather have a Rivera/Dickerson/Taveras rotation or a Dickerson/expensive righty power bat rotation?

redsfandan
12-15-2008, 05:49 PM
I'd rather have a Rivera/Wigginton/Dickerson/Bruce rotation in the outfield (obviously with Bruce having 600+ ab's just with some of it in center). For less than what it would take to acquire Burrell you'd still have players that would produce (imo), solid defense, added depth, ALOT of flexibility, and whatever money is leftover could be directed towards our next shortstop.

edit: If Taveras is added we'd likely still save money over Burrell (probably the cheapest of the "big bat" FA outfielders)

Burrell estimated $13 million > Wigginton ($5m), Rivera ($3m), & Taveras ($2m)

and a couple of those players (Rivera/Taveras) could cost less. We only have so much money to spend. One big bat will only help us so much.

selcats
12-15-2008, 06:56 PM
They are saying Wigginton is looking for 7 to 8m a year.

redsfandan
12-15-2008, 07:00 PM
They are saying Wigginton is looking for 7 to 8m a year.

source? I've seen 5+.

selcats
12-15-2008, 07:14 PM
John Fay.

WildcatFan
12-15-2008, 07:15 PM
I'd rather have a Rivera/Wigginton/Dickerson/Bruce rotation in the outfield (obviously with Bruce having 600+ ab's just with some of it in center). For less than what it would take to acquire Burrell you'd still have players that would produce (imo), solid defense, added depth, ALOT of flexibility, and whatever money is leftover could be directed towards our next shortstop.

edit: If Taveras is added we'd likely still save money over Burrell (probably the cheapest of the "big bat" FA outfielders)

Burrell estimated $13 million > Wigginton ($5m), Rivera ($3m), & Taveras ($2m)

and a couple of those players (Rivera/Taveras) could cost less. We only have so much money to spend. One big bat will only help us so much.

There's where we differ — I couldn't figure it out until now. I don't view shortstop as a dire need for the team. I'm OK with Keppinger or Hairston there until Gonzalez is 100 percent. Supposedly, he'll be ready to go at spring training, and his contract can come off the books at the end of the year, so if he doesn't perform this season, that money can go toward a new shortstop.

I guess I see left field as the one gaping hole on the team, so I'm happy spending the rest of the available money to fill that need.

BLEEDS
12-15-2008, 07:55 PM
I proposed a Rivera/Dickerson/Taveras rotation for center and left in one of these threads. If we picked up Wigginton too I'd be even happier.


That would make us a contender


for LAST PLACE IN THE DIVISION WITH THE PIRATES!!!
In fact, I'd put my money on the Pirates...

That would be one horrendously offensive run-scoring challenged OF right there.



:laugh:

No laughing, I just threw up again after reading your above suggestion...
:(

PEACE

-BLEEDS

redsfandan
12-15-2008, 07:59 PM
They are saying Wigginton is looking for 7 to 8m a year.


source? I've seen 5+.


John Fay.

I've looked, and maybe I've missed something but the only things I could find about him making $7m+ were that he may have made that in arbitration and a comment by a fan to John Fay. Arbitration is a joke. Even if a player loses his case he still is handed a raise. But that doesn't mean he'll make that much as a FA. Wigginton made around $4.3 million last year. He's a decent "journeyman" hitter with some versatility but I've read that he's sub par defensively at 3rd and he's had only limited experience in the outfield. He may want $7m+ but I doubt he'll get a 60% raise in this maket.



There's where we differ — I couldn't figure it out until now. I don't view shortstop as a dire need for the team. I'm OK with Keppinger or Hairston there until Gonzalez is 100 percent. Supposedly, he'll be ready to go at spring training, and his contract can come off the books at the end of the year, so if he doesn't perform this season, that money can go toward a new shortstop.

I guess I see left field as the one gaping hole on the team, so I'm happy spending the rest of the available money to fill that need.

IF Gonzalez is healthy than we should be fine at short but it's doubtful that he'll be back after '09. One possibility is that we could acquire a FA ss after the season and include a signing bonus to count some money towards the '09 budget. But yeah IF he is healthy than we only need the leftfielder and some depth. That's a big IF though and Hairston still isn't signed yet.




No laughing, I just threw up again after reading your above suggestion...
:(


glad i could help. :D

WildcatFan
12-15-2008, 08:01 PM
Yeah, Hairston should definitely be a priority.

BLEEDS
12-15-2008, 08:07 PM
There's where we differ — I couldn't figure it out until now. I don't view shortstop as a dire need for the team. I'm OK with Keppinger or Hairston there until Gonzalez is 100 percent. Supposedly, he'll be ready to go at spring training, and his contract can come off the books at the end of the year, so if he doesn't perform this season, that money can go toward a new shortstop.

I guess I see left field as the one gaping hole on the team, so I'm happy spending the rest of the available money to fill that need.


I agree 100%. WJ has said we have plenty of money to spend.

I think we could - theoretically - spend money on a Rivera and/or Wiggington - and STILL spend $10M+ on a RH power OF bat.

There's no need to spend money at SS - this is the place where we really have a lot of flexibility, this year. Janish - if you want GREAT D, no stick; Agon/Keppinger if you want to put your eggs in a "recovering from injury/career year playing for his next contract" angle; Keppinger/Hairston for the "guy out of position, but he's a great career utility player who COULD replicate his number from year 200x...
You can focus on addressing a long-term SS next off-season. Too much money on AGON's contract to sign a second $4/5M SS.

BIG impact RH Power Bat, with RELIABLE HISTORICAL numbers you can pretty much pencil in without much risk. $10M give or take.

You can still take a flier on Rivera/Baldelli or other $2-3M guys to round out the 3rd/4th/5th OF spots - since apparently neither Dusty or WJ is sold on Dickerson as a FT OF-er.

It's when you attempt to translate these guys to FT starters for 135+ games where you set yourself up for failure.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

redsfandan
12-15-2008, 08:25 PM
BIG impact RH Power Bat, with RELIABLE HISTORICAL numbers you can pretty much pencil in without much risk. $10M give or take.


I think that's where the problem is.

BLEEDS
12-15-2008, 08:52 PM
I think that's where the problem is.

Not if it's $3-4M. $5M+ yes.

I don't know if you've noticed, but the only guys getting that kind of money are Tex & Manny (and the Big Name pitchers) and after those two, it drops off QUITE A BIT. I think they'll be lucky to get much more than $10M per in this economy.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

redsfandan
12-15-2008, 09:00 PM
I think they'll be lucky to get much more than $10M per in this economy.


C'mon Bleeds, Ibanez receives $10.5 but you don't think the others will make more than him?

BLEEDS
12-15-2008, 09:05 PM
C'mon Bleeds, Ibanez receives $10.5 but you don't think the others will make more than him?

That was a stupid deal IMO. Philly trades an "OLD" Burrell for a 37 year old Ibanez - all to save $2M or so?!?! DUMB DUMB DUMB!!!

Dunn is - according to Gammons - lucky to get $8M from the BIg Money Teams, so yes, I think it's totally within the realm of possibility that $10M - give or take for some of the bigger names - should be able to ring in one of these guys when the phones aren't calling in from NY/Chicago/LA once all of the big guys have been signed.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

redsfandan
12-15-2008, 09:14 PM
Dunn is - according to Gammons - lucky to get $8M from the BIg Money Teams, so yes, I think it's totally within the realm of possibility that $10M - give or take for some of the bigger names - should be able to ring in one of these guys when the phones aren't calling in from NY/Chicago/LA once all of the big guys have been signed.


Gammons?? :rolleyes:

It's simple supply and demand. Only a few players available that fit the bill but more than a few teams that are interested in them. They would've made alot more in a normal market but that doesn't mean the price will drop THAT far.

Captain Hook
12-15-2008, 11:32 PM
IOP..... I think that the Reds need to seriously consider going after Milton Bradley. He is as good as any of the guys mentioned so far to fill our huge void in the OF.His numbers last year were great(actually got a few MVP votes) and he could be had for under 6 Mil a year(5.25 Mil in 08).I know he has been at DH a lot but has played plenty of OF.

He has had his share of problems in the past but teams like the Reds have to take a chance on a guy like this once in a while.At 30yrs hopefully he has grown up a bit and still has some room to improve on the field.

tripleaaaron
12-15-2008, 11:55 PM
As far as Dye and Dunn Defensively, neither one is great, but Dye should be a tremendously better left fielder than Dunn. as far as the fielding bible is concerned, it compares players at their respected position, Dye in RF, Dunn in LF. RF is a tougher position to play than LF so Dye should have no problems playing at least league average defense in left.

Captain Hook
12-16-2008, 12:59 AM
Probably couldn't get Bradley for under 6 Mil. Even at 7 to 8Mil he is a guy thats not too old and could help the Reds win for years to come.

Another chance the Reds should take IMO is on Mark Mulder.WJ has history with the guy and he should be healthy by now. Its not often you talk about potential with a 31 year old pitcher but Mulder was great before three years of being injured. For the right price he could be the lefty 5th starter we need.

It is not far fetched that both guys have a very good 09 or that we could sign them. Both these guys a capable of making the kind of impact that would make the Reds a contender in 09.

Slyder
12-16-2008, 09:10 AM
Probably couldn't get Bradley for under 6 Mil. Even at 7 to 8Mil he is a guy thats not too old and could help the Reds win for years to come.

Another chance the Reds should take IMO is on Mark Mulder.WJ has history with the guy and he should be healthy by now. Its not often you talk about potential with a 31 year old pitcher but Mulder was great before three years of being injured. For the right price he could be the lefty 5th starter we need.

It is not far fetched that both guys have a very good 09 or that we could sign them. Both these guys a capable of making the kind of impact that would make the Reds a contender in 09.

Bradley is probably going to get 8-12 mil depending on length and just how much this downturn is affecting baseball teams. BTW I wouldnt mind getting Bradley at all, he'd be a good fit if you think you can deal with the Bradley Boom that happens almost every year.

Mark Mulder is an older version of another Mark... Prior. If you go into it not expecting much and its a MLC with a ST invite you cant be too dissapointed when he gets hurt again and is bad in Spring Training. Another thing you must remember is we don't have LaRussa and Duncan working miracles with pitching staffs.

kentjett
12-16-2008, 10:40 AM
We are looking for a guy that is a good leader and is somewhat emotional. Dye and Burrel are right up that alley and it would be the equivalent of signing Greg Vaughn back in the day. He might not be the best athlete or overall player but he brings that IT factor that goes beyond baseball skills. We need a guy that is older and provides a leader for all of our young guys to look up too. We have enough younger guys and a mix of veteran's would even out the equation. Milton's bad attitude wouldn't fit that bill and it wouldn't help the Reds in that aspect. We need what Jr. and Dunn were not, a vocal leader.