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View Full Version : Any chance Reds stand pat at SS?



Blitz Dorsey
12-12-2008, 08:19 PM
At this point, it looks like we'll have to reach to find a SS. Either overpaying for a FA or giving too much away in a trade. Trust me, I would like nothing more than for the Reds to find a legit, young SS. But I just don't see it happening. Last report was that Alex Gonzalez would be ready for spring training. Going into the season with him as the starting shortstop is akin to playing Russian Roulette, but it might happen. And the Reds might think they have decent depth at the position with Keppinger, Janish and maybe even Valaika (I know most think he will be a 2B in the Bigs, but he's been a SS in the minors up to this point).

I could see the Reds waiting out the final year of A-Gon's inflated contract before going after a big-time SS next offseason. Actually, I hope I'm wrong, I would like to see a solution this season. But considering Gonzalez is on the books for $5 million and there are other options available behind him, I could definitely see our Reds standing pat.

RedEye
12-12-2008, 08:20 PM
My thoughts exactly. Most of the options out there are no better than what they already have.

Tom Servo
12-12-2008, 08:25 PM
If he's healthy enough I'd be willing to give A-Gon the playing time.

_Sir_Charles_
12-12-2008, 08:27 PM
I've thought since the beginning that they'd end up staying put on the SS situation. The only change I can even POSSIBLY see is moving Phillips to SS. And even that I think is a stretch. I'd LIKE to see it, but I don't think it will happen. I think they'll bide thier time and see what we've really got in the minors in terms of SS, 3B & 2B as in who holds onto what positions.

redsmetz
12-12-2008, 08:33 PM
I've said for a bit now that shortstop was at the bottom of the list. Gonzo without the family problem and injuries would have been fine. If something comes along, without a heavy price tag, I think they'll try something else, but it won't be until Spring Training, IMO. There remain other higher priorities.

fearofpopvol1
12-12-2008, 09:09 PM
Bat Janish 8. At least the defense will be good at an important position.

redsfan30
12-12-2008, 09:28 PM
I don't believe that shortstop is a huge issue for the 2009 season.

If we happen to nab one between now and Opening Day, fantastic! But I think there are more pressing needs to address. Catcher (which was addressed), a run producing bat to play left field and another starting pitcher are my priorities. Shortstop would fit in after those three.

Will M
12-12-2008, 09:34 PM
I've said for a bit now that shortstop was at the bottom of the list. Gonzo without the family problem and injuries would have been fine. If something comes along, without a heavy price tag, I think they'll try something else, but it won't be until Spring Training, IMO. There remain other higher priorities.

how can it be at the bottom of the list. we don't have anyone on the 40 man roster who can play the position defensively other than Janish and he can't OPS .600

walt states Gonzo is his man for 2009. i am not sure Gonzo will play again.

puca
12-12-2008, 10:23 PM
how can it be at the bottom of the list. we don't have anyone on the 40 man roster who can play the position defensively other than Janish and he can't OPS .600

walt states Gonzo is his man for 2009. i am not sure Gonzo will play again.

Precisely my take on it.

It doesn't matter how much we are paying AGon, there are serious questions whether he will be healthy enough to play next year, and if he can, whether he can still provide anything resembling above average defense. Even in the best case scenerio, you aren't getting more than 120 games out of him.

It doesn't matter whether Jeff Keppinger and/or Hairston (if re-signed) manned the position last year. I doubt if you could find even a handful of scouts that think they are even passible defensively. Neither should play shortstop except in an absolute emergency.

So we are left with Janish. If he can provide near gold glove defense and Dusty can resist the urge to bat him 2nd, then maybe that resembles a plan. But even then you need a SS at AAA.

The way I see it they need to acquire one above average defensive shortstop. That shortstop will either get significant playing time for the Reds or will play every day at AAA. It doesn't have to be a long-term-solution type of guy, although that certainly would be nice.

GADawg
12-12-2008, 10:35 PM
I don't get it...Keppinger is no Ozzie Smith and no Cal Ripken for that matter but the fact is he made the routine play, turned the double play, and was "our" best right handed hitter(before injury). Kepp was the one guy we could count on to put the ball in play(still for a high average) in the midst of a bunch of strike out artists.

If I'm filling out the depth chart and taking into consideration Gonzo's injury and time since he last played he's behind Kepp until he shows he's back to form(which if I recall most here seemed to think was overrated to begin with).

dougdirt
12-12-2008, 10:48 PM
walt states Gonzo is his man for 2009. i am not sure Gonzo will play again.

While I have my doubts about how good Gonzo will be next year, the Reds have his medical records and we don't. I think they have a much firmer grasp on his health than we do.

The more I think about it, the more I think we stand pat at shortstop.

Rounding Third
12-12-2008, 11:04 PM
Well he is a slightly above average fielding shortstop according to UZR and the Fielding Bible. This upcoming season Marcel projects him to have a .743 OPS this season, I don't know where to find Bill James projections. I am a member of his site but I don't know if he posts them on there of it they are released only in his book.

remdog
12-12-2008, 11:38 PM
While I have my doubts about how good Gonzo will be next year, the Reds have his medical records and we don't. I think they have a much firmer grasp on his health than we do.

While that may be true the most recent report is that he is not going to be playing winter ball as planned. That seems to me to be a bad sign.

Rem

Rounding Third
12-13-2008, 12:09 AM
While that may be true the most recent report is that he is not going to be playing winter ball as planned. That seems to me to be a bad sign.

Rem

If they don't think he will make it back then I'm sure that they are searching for a SS. It seems we have a competent GM right now. If Gonzalez can come back and play above average SS and hit .260/.325 I think we could manage if we fill the spot in LF.

Topcat
12-13-2008, 03:38 AM
If they don't think he will make it back then I'm sure that they are searching for a SS. It seems we have a competent GM right now. If Gonzalez can come back and play above average SS and hit .260/.325 I think we could manage if we fill the spot in LF.


Competent GM ? Track record backs you on that , but his body of work so far with the Red's has been minimal up to this point. I miss WayneK I believe he got the shaft:(

mth123
12-13-2008, 03:57 AM
While that may be true the most recent report is that he is not going to be playing winter ball as planned. That seems to me to be a bad sign.

Rem

Exactly. If Gonzo is the plan, I foresee one of those situations where we keep getting told he's 2 to 4 weeks away and he never actually makes it into the line-up. Kind of like this winter ball scenario. Or the first half of 2008.

And if Keppinger is the alternative, this team is doomed. He does not make the routine play as another poster said. He makes the "right at him" play. What should normally be a "routine play" ends up as a single into CF. And as for that "best RH bat" stuff, I point to that .656 OPS that he put up. As a concession to injury effect, I'll even give Kepp another 75 points on his OPS for 2009. That makes him a guy with a .731 OPS bat. Not bad for a SS who gives the team plus plus defense day after day. Unfortunately, Kepp's bat is supposed to be his calling card and it needs to be a lot better than that to be worth dealing with that glove. The Mets gave him a long look when they had a black hole at 2B and sent him down for a year and then gave up on him and dealt him for Ruben Gotay. The talent deficient Royals, who acquired him, left him in AAA and the dealt him to the Reds for an A Ball pitcher who was never a prospect. Seems like a lot of baseball men have determined that Kepp just isn't good enough for a roster spot. I view 2008 as evidence that maybe they knew what they were doing and not some injury driven abnormality. 2007 is probably the abnormality.

The Reds may only have 2 OF on the roster right now, but IMO SS is the number 1 need.

RedlegJake
12-13-2008, 04:31 AM
Competent GM ? Track record backs you on that , but his body of work so far with the Red's has been minimal up to this point. I miss WayneK I believe he got the shaft:(

How can you seriously say that? I love the job he's doing. Dumping Majewski, CPatt, Bako, Hopper, Belisle, adding Hernandez, re-signing Lincoln, getting Rhodes to ease losing Affeldt, and he made the right decision to offer arb to Weathers, I'd rather David said no but I'm okay (and surprised actually he accepted) with him 1 last time. He hasn't traded Bruce, or Cueto, or Votto although he's had a chance for guys like Holliday and I count that a BIG plus. He's opened a ton of room on the roster and with just OFers you can bet he has something up his sleeve or he'd have never cut Hopper loose.

As for SS, I see the Reds picking up someone as an emergency backup but no one exciting. In fact, probably someone who'll tick off a lot of posters, like Angel bleeeeech Berroa.

Rounding Third
12-13-2008, 10:13 AM
I don't see how you can say that WJ is doing a bad job because the former GM got the shaft. I liked WK for the most part, but WJ has been spending time ridding all the waste that infiltrated the roster under WK. After hearing that WJ has put together a stats team to help evaluate players along with scouting I am actually more excited than I have been in a long while.

WMR
12-13-2008, 10:21 AM
Walt is GMing circles around Krivsky's efforts.

Heath
12-13-2008, 10:27 AM
While that may be true the most recent report is that he is not going to be playing winter ball as planned. That seems to me to be a bad sign.

Rem

Most people in his native country usually sometimes are more excited to play winter ball than play in the big leagues.

I agree with Rem.

*thud*

Jpup
12-13-2008, 11:12 AM
Walt is GMing circles around Krivsky's efforts.

Based on what?

Rounding Third
12-13-2008, 11:36 AM
I think just shedding all the garbage that WK brought aboard has been a huge step forward. But we shouldn't forget the deals that WK made that turned out to be real winners, Volquez and Phillips come to mind right away.

*BaseClogger*
12-13-2008, 05:56 PM
I think all of the value Janish provides with the leather is given back by his terrible offense. I like defense, and I understand we all want a slick-fielding shortstop, but I honestly believe Keppinger at short would create more runs...

GADawg
12-13-2008, 06:31 PM
Keppinger is a "ball player". Obviously there are smarter posters here than me that don't like him and feel the team is "doomed" with him(a little dramatic me thinks) but stats notwithstanding I have to go with what I see.

He reminds me of a QB who never does anything flashy enough to get credit for winning but also really doesn't do anything stupid to lose games for his team. Is that a bad analogy? Don't know.

Anyway, I stand corrected that he isn't the best righthanded hitter but can anyone tell me who else off the roster they'd rather have up in a hit and run situation or with a man on 3rd and less than 2 outs?

Oh and the season he had going pre injury and the season he ended up post injury has to be recognized a little even if you don't like the guy. I guess when Tavares gets on board then Keppinger; Phillips; E.E.; or whoever the whipping boy du jour is can at least get a moments rest.

Rojo
12-13-2008, 06:34 PM
How can you seriously say that? I love the job he's doing. Dumping Majewski, CPatt, Bako, Hopper, Belisle, adding Hernandez, re-signing Lincoln, getting Rhodes to ease losing Affeldt, and he made the right decision to offer arb to Weathers, I'd rather David said no but I'm okay (and surprised actually he accepted) with him 1 last time. He hasn't traded Bruce, or Cueto, or Votto although he's had a chance for guys like Holliday and I count that a BIG plus. He's opened a ton of room on the roster and with just OFers you can bet he has something up his sleeve or he'd have never cut Hopper loose.

As for SS, I see the Reds picking up someone as an emergency backup but no one exciting. In fact, probably someone who'll tick off a lot of posters, like Angel bleeeeech Berroa.

Really? You LOVE all that. Man, cheap date.

TRF
12-13-2008, 06:40 PM
Walt is GMing circles around Krivsky's efforts.

With all due respect, Walt has yet to make a move with the Reds as good as getting Hamilton for loose couch change and flipping him for Volquez.

But for the most part, this is still a Bowden, DanO, Krivsky team with Walt making NO major additions to the 25 man roster.

puca
12-13-2008, 06:45 PM
I think all of the value Janish provides with the leather is given back by his terrible offense. I like defense, and I understand we all want a slick-fielding shortstop, but I honestly believe Keppinger at short would create more runs...

I don't disagree, but a team whose future rests largely on the backs of its young starting pitchers cannot afford Jeff Keppinger at shortstop. There I've said it.

If the mantra for 2009 is not "lets win this thing", it better be "lets not screw up 2010". And that means doing whatever is necessary to protect the young arms.

WMR
12-13-2008, 06:54 PM
With all due respect, Walt has yet to make a move with the Reds as good as getting Hamilton for loose couch change and flipping him for Volquez.

But for the most part, this is still a Bowden, DanO, Krivsky team with Walt making NO major additions to the 25 man roster.

Good point.

Raisor
12-13-2008, 06:56 PM
but can anyone tell me who else off the roster they'd rather have up in a hit and run situation or with a man on 3rd and less than 2 outs?

.

There isn't any situation you can name that I wouldn't rather have Joey Votto up to bat instead of Kepp.

*BaseClogger*
12-13-2008, 07:02 PM
I don't disagree, but a team whose future rests largely on the backs of its young starting pitchers cannot afford Jeff Keppinger at shortstop. There I've said it.

If the mantra for 2009 is not "lets win this thing", it better be "lets not screw up 2010". And that means doing whatever is necessary to protect the young arms.

I agree, but with the recent moves Walt has made I'm thinking he's following BCast's "Win Now" doctrine for 2009...

puca
12-13-2008, 07:11 PM
I agree, but with the recent moves Walt has made I'm thinking he's following BCast's "Win Now" doctrine for 2009...

Sorry but win now won't happen if Jeff Keppinger is the shortstop. That is not a knock on Jeff Keppinger, it is the understanding that he is not a major league shortstop.

It is not only the extra hits his statuesque defense allows but also the the extra pitches must be thrown as a result. If the strength of this team is going to be the starting rotation, then it is imperative that there is a defense keeps the starters in the games as long as possible.

*BaseClogger*
12-13-2008, 07:12 PM
Sorry but win now won't happen if Jeff Keppinger is the shortstop. That is not a knock on Jeff Keppinger, it is the understanding that he is not a major league shortstop.

It is not only the extra hits his statuesque defense allows but also the the extra pitches must be thrown as a result. If the strength of this team is going to be the starting rotation, then it is imperative that there is a defense keeps the starters in the games as long as possible.

Once again I agree, but faced with the choice between Janish and Keppinger I'm playing Kepp if my goal is to "Win Now"...

puca
12-13-2008, 07:20 PM
Once again I agree, but faced with the choice between Janish and Keppinger I'm playing Kepp if my goal is to "Win Now"...

If the goal is to win now than "none of the above" is the correct answer.

Chip R
12-13-2008, 07:28 PM
Keppinger is a "ball player". Obviously there are smarter posters here than me that don't like him and feel the team is "doomed" with him(a little dramatic me thinks) but stats notwithstanding I have to go with what I see.

He reminds me of a QB who never does anything flashy enough to get credit for winning but also really doesn't do anything stupid to lose games for his team. Is that a bad analogy? Don't know.



It's not like they've won a lot with him in there.

If you're not a stats guy, then please judge him with your eyes when he's in the field. He'll make that play two steps to his left or right but in the big leagues that's barely adequate. You don't need UZR or Range factor or Zone factor to tell you that.

mth123
12-13-2008, 08:32 PM
I don't disagree, but a team whose future rests largely on the backs of its young starting pitchers cannot afford Jeff Keppinger at shortstop. There I've said it.

If the mantra for 2009 is not "lets win this thing", it better be "lets not screw up 2010". And that means doing whatever is necessary to protect the young arms.

:clap::clap:

Mario-Rijo
12-13-2008, 08:43 PM
If the goal is to win now than "none of the above" is the correct answer.

Well played sir, well played! And I totally agree with your point about the pitching, excellent observation and often overlooked despite the continued emphasis here.

Blitz Dorsey
12-13-2008, 10:47 PM
If Gonzalez gets hurt (highly probable) give me Keppinger over Janish as the starting SS. I would prefer just keeping Janish in AAA.

Jpup
12-13-2008, 11:25 PM
There isn't any situation you can name that I wouldn't rather have Joey Votto up to bat instead of Kepp.

man on third with one out against a lefty. tie game, bottom of the 8th.

Raisor
12-13-2008, 11:38 PM
man on third with one out against a lefty. tie game, bottom of the 8th.

Still take Joey.

Close and late
.246 .308 .345 -JK


.299 .358 .454 -JV

GADawg
12-14-2008, 12:00 AM
There isn't any situation you can name that I wouldn't rather have Joey Votto up to bat instead of Kepp.

didn't know Votto was a righty

Raisor
12-14-2008, 12:24 AM
didn't know Votto was a righty

well, when you said "on the roster".

And I'd take both Eddie and BP over JKepp in any situation too.

GADawg
12-14-2008, 01:43 AM
yep shoulda been more clear but we started out talking righties...and seriously you'd take Brandon or Edwin in that situation over Keppinger? Ya know it's not like I'm kin to the guy or anything and don't really know why I'm defending him but come on...in that situation? I love BP(probably my favorite Red)and even Edwin but gimme someone who isn't allergic to the sound of the ball coming off the bat!

puca
12-14-2008, 08:53 AM
If Gonzalez gets hurt (highly probable) give me Keppinger over Janish as the starting SS. I would prefer just keeping Janish in AAA.

I can't see any circumstance where starting Keppinger at SS for more than a handful of games is a good idea.

Shortstop is too important a defensive position, especially for a team whose hope of success (near-term and long-term) rests largely on their young starting pitchers, to continue to play a sub-standard defensive shortstop. Giving away outs directly results in additional high-stress pitches for the young staff. It also means more innings being logged by the middle-relievers - unlikely to be a strength for this team.

I'm not sold on Janish. If he could provide near-gold glove caliber defense (and personally I don't think he is THAT good), then he would be my choice to play if Gonzalez is hurt or unable to perform at an acceptable level. That is why I think Walt should be on the phones trying to bring in such a player.

puca
12-14-2008, 08:56 AM
man on third with one out against a lefty. tie game, bottom of the 8th.

So you agree that Keppinger would be best used as a bench player?

Much more likely to see that situation as a pinch hitter than a starter. :)

Jpup
12-14-2008, 12:43 PM
So you agree that Keppinger would be best used as a bench player?

Much more likely to see that situation as a pinch hitter than a starter. :)

never said otherwise.

Blitz Dorsey
12-14-2008, 01:22 PM
I can't see any circumstance where starting Keppinger at SS for more than a handful of games is a good idea.

Shortstop is too important a defensive position, especially for a team whose hope of success (near-term and long-term) rests largely on their young starting pitchers, to continue to play a sub-standard defensive shortstop. Giving away outs directly results in additional high-stress pitches for the young staff. It also means more innings being logged by the middle-relievers - unlikely to be a strength for this team.

I'm not sold on Janish. If he could provide near-gold glove caliber defense (and personally I don't think he is THAT good), then he would be my choice to play if Gonzalez is hurt or unable to perform at an acceptable level. That is why I think Walt should be on the phones trying to bring in such a player.

I hear you. But I could turn that right around and say I can't see any circumstance where starting Janish at SS for more than a handful of games is a good idea. Janish is such a poor hitter IMO that I don't think he'll ever be worth keeping on a MLB roster as more than a stopgap. I'd just rather have Keppinger in there for an extended period of time if something happens to Alex Gonzalez. At least I know Kepp will hit. Janish is a bit overrated as a fielder IMO. He's certainly not a gold glover. He's got a solid glove with decent range and a good arm. But he's such a bad hitter that it's hard to imagine him ever being a consistent contributor on a big league team.

Highlifeman21
12-14-2008, 02:09 PM
There isn't any situation you can name that I wouldn't rather have Joey Votto up to bat instead of Kepp.

Whoa whoa whoa, but his original situation implied we needed a RHB up.

You're telling me handedness of the batter doesn't matter?

Blasphemy!



You're really telling me that a LHB could have an equal or better outcome than a RHB in the same situation?

How can this be?

Highlifeman21
12-14-2008, 02:11 PM
If Gonzalez gets hurt (highly probable) give me Keppinger over Janish as the starting SS. I would prefer just keeping Janish in AAA.

So you think Keppinger's bat outweighs Janish's D?

If we can put some mashers in the lineup, I'd much prefer Janish's D.

Actually, now that I think about it, regardless of who's in our lineup, I'd much prefer Janish's D, since the Reds have lacked SS D since Larkin in his prime.

mbgrayson
12-14-2008, 02:23 PM
From Paul Dougherty's blog (http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=PluckPersona&U=c77145f462c74fa0ac03babe03d1a7e3&plckController=PersonaBlog&plckScript=personaScript&plckElementId=personaDest&plckPersonaPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ac77145f462c74fa0ac03babe03d1a7e3 Post%3a4cedff04-da23-42ca-86ba-766e49063e59&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com):

Speaking of shoulder chips, none bigger than Jeff Keppinger's. He said the broken kneecap -- and his early return from it -- hurt him at the plate all summer. He compensated for it and in the process wore out his other (right) leg. Got little push off the back foot. Given A. Gonzalez' situation, Keppinger remains front and center at SS.

I will keep an open mind about Kepp. He had a broken knee, and was enough of a gamer to try to come back from it, albeit too soon. Gonzalez also had a bad knee (I realize the injuries were not identical) and conservatively stayed out. I like Keppinger, and when he was 'on', he was good. Before his injury, he was hitting .324/.373/.446 for an OPS of .819. That is excellent for a shortstop. Can he do it for a full year if he is healthy? I'd like to find out....

Highlifeman21
12-14-2008, 02:26 PM
From Paul Dougherty's blog (http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=PluckPersona&U=c77145f462c74fa0ac03babe03d1a7e3&plckController=PersonaBlog&plckScript=personaScript&plckElementId=personaDest&plckPersonaPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ac77145f462c74fa0ac03babe03d1a7e3 Post%3a4cedff04-da23-42ca-86ba-766e49063e59&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com):


I will keep an open mind about Kepp. He had a broken knee, and was enough of a gamer to try to come back from it, albeit too soon. Gonzalez also had a bad knee (I realize the injuries were not identical) and conservatively stayed out. I like Keppinger, and when he was 'on', he was good. Before his injury, he was hitting .324/.373/.446 for an OPS of .819. That is excellent for a shortstop. Can he do it for a full year if he is healthy? I'd like to find out....

And you can live with Keppinger the statue as a defensive SS?

remdog
12-14-2008, 02:38 PM
regardless of who's in our lineup, I'd much prefer Janish's D, since the Reds have lacked SS D since Larkin in his prime.


Not that I've seen a huge amount of Paul Janish on a Big League Field (who has since he didn't play there a lot) but, what I did see didn't impress me all that much. Good with a glove? Yeah. Great? Probably not. Good with a bat? Absolutely not---he should have probably retired when he got a hit in his first AB. :)

Just my opinion.

To me, when it comes to the SS position, is there somebody else besides these three? 'Cause, if not, that position is gonna' be a problem all summer long.

Rem

Highlifeman21
12-14-2008, 02:44 PM
Not that I've seen a huge amount of Paul Janish on a Big League Field (who has since he didn't play there a lot) but, what I did see didn't impress me all that much. Good with a glove? Yeah. Great? Probably not. Good with a bat? Absolutely not---he should have probably retired when he got a hit in his first AB. :)

Just my opinion.

To me, when it comes to the SS position, is there somebody else besides these three? 'Cause, if not, that position is gonna' be a problem all summer long.

Rem

I definitely agree.

It will be a loooooooooong summer if our options are Janish, Keppinger and Gonzalez.

Therefore, the Reds should not stand pat at SS.


But, who are the realistic options to obtain via FA or trade?

remdog
12-14-2008, 02:46 PM
I definitely agree.

It will be a loooooooooong summer if our options are Janish, Keppinger and Gonzalez.

Therefore, the Reds should not stand pat at SS.


But, who are the realistic options to obtain via FA or trade?

Ya got me. Anymore news on the Barry Larkin situation? ;)

Rem

mbgrayson
12-14-2008, 02:50 PM
And you can live with Keppinger the statue as a defensive SS?

I certainly agree that Kepp is below average defensively. If we can find a better option, then I'm open to it.

Mario-Rijo
12-14-2008, 03:01 PM
I hear you. But I could turn that right around and say I can't see any circumstance where starting Janish at SS for more than a handful of games is a good idea. Janish is such a poor hitter IMO that I don't think he'll ever be worth keeping on a MLB roster as more than a stopgap. I'd just rather have Keppinger in there for an extended period of time if something happens to Alex Gonzalez. At least I know Kepp will hit. Janish is a bit overrated as a fielder IMO. He's certainly not a gold glover. He's got a solid glove with decent range and a good arm. But he's such a bad hitter that it's hard to imagine him ever being a consistent contributor on a big league team.

The absence of 1 good bat in the lineup is still manageable.

The absence of a good glove, range, arm, head at SS is not manageable.

The absence of said bat does not mean the offense cannot score runs.

The absence of said defense does harm to an already at risk (Baker) pitching staff.

If Gonzo can't go and no one else steps forward i'd prefer Janish in the field to start the game with a better bat (Keppinger) on the bench for that pivotal offensive moment in the game. The offense might not be as fun to watch but it will eventually, you must protect those arms at all costs. It's priority # 1 for the here and now and the future.

Blitz Dorsey
12-14-2008, 03:23 PM
To me, it kind of comes down to this question...

What is worse? Keppinger's defense or Janish's offense?

For me, the answer is Janish's offense. I can live with Keppinger's glove as long as he's a .300 hitter (which I'm convinced he is when healthy). So, that's why I would take Kepp over Janish if one of them needs to be the everyday SS when/if A-Gon is injured.

Blitz Dorsey
12-14-2008, 03:28 PM
We also have to take into consideration who the manager is. I don't want any piece of Janish batting in the 2 hole for a long period of time. That is exactly what Dusty would do if Janish was left as the best option at SS.

And again, I think Janish is a bit overrated defensively. He's good, not great. When some people talk about him, you would think they were discussing one of the great defensive shortstops in the game. He's solid, nowhere near great, IMO. Therefore, his glove doesn't make up for his poor offense.

Mario-Rijo
12-14-2008, 03:43 PM
To me, it kind of comes down to this question...

What is worse? Keppinger's defense or Janish's offense?

For me, the answer is Janish's offense. I can live with Keppinger's glove as long as he's a .300 hitter (which I'm convinced he is when healthy). So, that's why I would take Kepp over Janish if one of them needs to be the everyday SS when/if A-Gon is injured.

Too me it doesn't come down to that. I understand your argument but IMO that's not what we need to look at. The question is....

Do you prefer to add a few more wins over the course of a season?

Do you prefer Edinson's and Johnny's etc. arm's stay in tact in order to compete beyond Baker's contract?

What's more important?

Because the truth is we probably aren't getting into the playoffs with either of those guys as our SS despite what else we do.

BTW Janish may not be Ozzie but people ought to recognize that he is still an above average defensive SS in every way.

puca
12-14-2008, 03:43 PM
To me, it kind of comes down to this question...

What is worse? Keppinger's defense or Janish's offense?

For me, the answer is Janish's offense. I can live with Keppinger's glove as long as he's a .300 hitter (which I'm convinced he is when healthy). So, that's why I would take Kepp over Janish if one of them needs to be the everyday SS when/if A-Gon is injured.

Well what I can't (or don't want to) live with is risking Cueto and Volquez's health for the sake of Jeff Keppinger's bat. He is not that special of a hitter to make this team a contender.

Keppinger's defense puts the young starting pitchers at more risk than Janish's bat does. Considering the makeup of this team that should be the top concern. If Janish's glove isn't near gold glove quality, then bring someone else in whose is. Players like Rafeal Belliard have never been all that hard to find.



Stand pat? I still maintain that would be a huge mistake.

wheels
12-14-2008, 04:16 PM
Well what I can't (or don't want to) live with is risking Cueto and Volquez's health for the sake of Jeff Keppinger's bat. He is not that special of a hitter to make this team a contender.

Keppinger's defense puts the young starting pitchers at more risk than Janish's bat does. Considering the makeup of this team that should be the top concern. If Janish's glove isn't near gold glove quality, then bring someone else in whose is. Players like Rafeal Belliard have never been all that hard to find.



Stand pat? I still maintain that would be a huge mistake.

This is exactly the way I feel (I'm also not sold on Kepp's bat).

Ronny Cedeno would be the perfect example of the Belliard Theory, plus he might hit a LITTLE better.

Walt lived with guys like Eckstein, and I think Cedeno might be even better.

Caveat Emperor
12-14-2008, 06:48 PM
What is worse? Keppinger's defense or Janish's offense?

If the team doesn't like the choice being set up (and it shouldn't) then the correct answer is to go find someone that plays a little better defense than Keppinger and hits a little better than Janish.

Such guys do exist.

Highlifeman21
12-14-2008, 08:50 PM
Ya got me. Anymore news on the Barry Larkin situation? ;)

Rem

Heck, at this point given the options, I'd almost take Larkin's last 3 years as a Red vs any of our current SS options.

At least Larkin's bat belonged at the top of the order.

Scrap Irony
12-14-2008, 08:59 PM
Does anyone know Keppinger's D rating (Fielding Bible/ UZR/ all of them) before the broken kneecap?

red-in-la
12-14-2008, 09:07 PM
how can it be at the bottom of the list. we don't have anyone on the 40 man roster who can play the position defensively other than Janish and he can't OPS .600

walt states Gonzo is his man for 2009. i am not sure Gonzo will play again.

I disagree. If, and this is a huge IF, having a decent hitting and great defensive SS is a issue (which I don't think it is), then Phillips IS the only reasonable answer. There is really little to nothing out there.

I would try to bring Phillips on line with the decision in ST and play him at SS and Keppinger at 2B.

The Reds could end up with a pretty decent starting 8 if they can pull off the Dye trade......but aside from that, I would just play Keppinger at SS and keep the rest of the starting 8 as is.

Will M
12-14-2008, 09:59 PM
I disagree. If, and this is a huge IF, having a decent hitting and great defensive SS is a issue (which I don't think it is), then Phillips IS the only reasonable answer. There is really little to nothing out there.

I would try to bring Phillips on line with the decision in ST and play him at SS and Keppinger at 2B.

The Reds could end up with a pretty decent starting 8 if they can pull off the Dye trade......but aside from that, I would just play Keppinger at SS and keep the rest of the starting 8 as is.

imo playing Phillips at SS & Kep at 2B is robbing Peter to pay Paul. Kep has very poor range which is just as big an issue at 2B as it is at SS.

TRF
12-14-2008, 10:07 PM
imo playing Phillips at SS & Kep at 2B is robbing Peter to pay Paul. Kep has very poor range which is just as big an issue at 2B as it is at SS.

Kepps sub par arm isn't as much of an issue at 2B though. plus he'd have Votto to his left with above average range.

not that i want Kepp starting, just sayin'.

Blitz Dorsey
12-14-2008, 10:22 PM
Too me it doesn't come down to that. I understand your argument but IMO that's not what we need to look at. The question is....

Do you prefer to add a few more wins over the course of a season?

Do you prefer Edinson's and Johnny's etc. arm's stay in tact in order to compete beyond Baker's contract?

What's more important?

Because the truth is we probably aren't getting into the playoffs with either of those guys as our SS despite what else we do.

BTW Janish may not be Ozzie but people ought to recognize that he is still an above average defensive SS in every way.

Oh, I certainly agree Janish is above average defensively. He's just not great IMO. And I just don't think having Keppinger in there (if our starting SS goes down) is going to hurt guys like Volquez and Cueto in their development. We're talking about a backup SS, of course there are going to be imperfections. But Keppinger would help the offense -- which would in turn help our young pitchers get leads in games -- and would help the team overall more than Janish would IMO.

If we're in the hunt in 2009 and Gonzalez goes down for a month, let's say July, I would prefer to have Keppinger in there. I think people forget how good this guy was before the injury last year. He's not a .330 hitter like he was early last year, but he can be a very good offensive player and not hurt you too much defensively when he's healthy. Janish would just kill the offense over a long haul, batting under .200 most likely. And his above average/good defense would not be enough to make up for it IMO.

Mario-Rijo
12-14-2008, 11:43 PM
Oh, I certainly agree Janish is above average defensively. He's just not great IMO. And I just don't think having Keppinger in there (if our starting SS goes down) is going to hurt guys like Volquez and Cueto in their development. We're talking about a backup SS, of course there are going to be imperfections. But Keppinger would help the offense -- which would in turn help our young pitchers get leads in games -- and would help the team overall more than Janish would IMO.

If we're in the hunt in 2009 and Gonzalez goes down for a month, let's say July, I would prefer to have Keppinger in there. I think people forget how good this guy was before the injury last year. He's not a .330 hitter like he was early last year, but he can be a very good offensive player and not hurt you too much defensively when he's healthy. Janish would just kill the offense over a long haul, batting under .200 most likely. And his above average/good defense would not be enough to make up for it IMO.

That's a good point about the offense helping the staff, something maybe a bit overlooked, so I gotta give you some props on that. That said giving up extra outs alone isn't good but when those outs then lead to extra hits, walks, runs etc. it's extremely bad not just mentally but more importantly physically.

I saw one play last season that summed up the issue for me. Jeff Keppinger was playing SS, a guy hits a routine grounder of the weak variety, literally a 6 or 7 hopper to dead center of 3rd and 2nd base, the camera showed the play from the CF view. Keppinger never entered the picture and the ball went into LF? I was shocked, was he playing a shift? No he wasn't playing a shift, he may have been pulled towards 2B but never showed up on camera. So I thought he had to have fell down, he had to, but when they showed them going into the dugout his uni was clean. Now the view from CF captured home plate in this view so I ask you how awful is that? Did his cleat get stuck in the ground or what, IDK but there was no reason for that. However it doesn't really matter because after that I just watched him constantly and he allowed way too many balls (mostly outs) to go into the OF. I'd rather play Hairston there and his arm is well below average for the position, but at least balls will stay on the IF that belong there.

BRM
12-15-2008, 05:01 PM
From Hal's blog:



ASKED IF THE MAN who missed all of last season, Alex Gonzalez, is the team’s shortstop going into spring training, Jocketty said, “Reports are that he should be ready for spring traing. If he’s not, we still have Jeff Keppiner and Paul Janish and Hairston, if we can sign him.”

Ltlabner
12-15-2008, 05:07 PM
If he’s not, we still have Jeff Keppiner and Paul Janish and Hairston, if we can sign him.”

Yech.

Might as well toss Javy, Norris Hopper, the hot-dog vendor in section 413 and Nate on that list for all the good they'd do.

BRM
12-15-2008, 05:09 PM
Yech.

That was my initial response when I read that.

*BaseClogger*
12-15-2008, 05:09 PM
Does anyone know Keppinger's D rating (Fielding Bible/ UZR/ all of them) before the broken kneecap?

His UZR/150 at shortstop in 2007 was -6.7 and at shortstop in 2008 it was -20.9...

BRM
12-15-2008, 05:11 PM
His UZR/150 at shortstop in 2007 was -6.7 and at shortstop in 2008 it was -20.9...

So, he wasn't good there even when he was healthy. Gotcha.

OnBaseMachine
12-15-2008, 05:24 PM
I always thought Walt Jocketty was a guy that valued defense. Apparently I was wrong.

*BaseClogger*
12-15-2008, 05:24 PM
So, he wasn't good there even when he was healthy. Gotcha.

Well, most of that 2008 data was post-injury. I'll take Kepp's 2007 package of above-average offense and slightly below-average defense any day...

BRM
12-15-2008, 05:25 PM
I always thought Walt Jocketty was a guy that valued defense. Apparently I was wrong.

He certainly hasn't been rumored to be targeting any quality defenders so far. Hopefully that changes soon enough.

BRM
12-15-2008, 05:27 PM
Well, most of that 2008 data was post-injury. I'll take Kepp's 2007 package of above-average offense and slightly below-average defense any day...

I'd much rather have good defense at SS, personally. Mainly to provide help for the young arms.

*BaseClogger*
12-15-2008, 05:28 PM
I'd much rather have good defense at SS, personally. Mainly to provide help for the young arms.

I'd rather have the better total package--a run is a run... ;)

remdog
12-15-2008, 05:29 PM
His UZR/150 at shortstop in 2007 was -6.7 and at shortstop in 2008 it was -20.9...

On the plus side I would say those numbers indicate that Kepp was seriously impacted in the field by the injury.

On the negative side I would say that those numbers indicate that Kepp is now in a similar position as Gonzo---can he overcome his in juries to return to form (even if that is a lessor negative).

Rem

BRM
12-15-2008, 05:31 PM
I'd rather have the better total package--a run is a run... ;)

To each his own.

*BaseClogger*
12-15-2008, 05:31 PM
On the plus side I would say those numbers indicate that Kepp was seriously impacted in the field by the injury.

On the negative side I would say that those numbers indicate that Kepp is now in a similar position as Gonzo---can he overcome his in juries to return to form (even if that is a lessor negative).

Rem

Yeah, and you could argue that playing everyday wore him down. He was asked to play everyday at shortstop in 2008 for the first time in his career and he might not be able to handle it. In 2007 he was more of a super-sub and it probably kept him fresh. I don't want him as the starter in 2009, but he's a better choice than Janish. To keep Kepp fresh I'd start Janish when Volquez pitches because it maximizes Janish's value to start him the same day as a groundball specialist...

BRM
12-15-2008, 05:34 PM
I was really hoping Walt could find a legit SS this winter. A good defender who could at least be average with the bat. I don't really like any of the current in-house choices.

*BaseClogger*
12-15-2008, 05:35 PM
I was really hoping Walt could find a legit SS this winter. A good defender who could at least be average with the bat. I don't really like any of the current in-house choices.

Any updates on Ronny Cedeno's availability? He reminds me of a 2009 version of Jason Bartlett...

OnBaseMachine
12-15-2008, 05:35 PM
I want a plus defender at shortstop. I'm tired of watching our pitchers have to throw an extra 15 pitches because our shortstop has fall-down range. Ronny Cedeno, Robert Andino, Erick Aybar... just get one of them, bat him eighth and watch the middle infield defense improve drastically.

wheels
12-15-2008, 05:36 PM
I want Cedeno.

*BaseClogger*
12-15-2008, 05:36 PM
I want a plus defender at shortstop. I'm tired of watching our pitchers have to throw an extra 15 pitches because our shortstop has fall-down range.

So, you'd rather have Paul Janish than Hanley Ramirez?

nate
12-15-2008, 05:37 PM
Yech.

Might as well toss Javy, Norris Hopper, the hot-dog vendor in section 413 and Nate on that list for all the good they'd do.

In reverse order, of course.

OnBaseMachine
12-15-2008, 05:37 PM
So, you'd rather have Paul Janish than Hanley Ramirez?

Where did I say that?

BRM
12-15-2008, 05:40 PM
Um, where did I say that?

You stated you wanted a plus defender at SS. So he threw a ridiculous question at you. The actual question is do you want Janish or Keppinger at SS? Or do you want Walt to try to bring in a young SS like the ones you listed in your post?

OnBaseMachine
12-15-2008, 05:41 PM
I'd rather have Janish than Keppinger. But I'd really prefer an Aybar type, a guy with good defense and potential in his bat.

*BaseClogger*
12-15-2008, 05:42 PM
Um, where did I say that?

This post (of course you edited it after I read it):


I want a plus defender at shortstop. I'm tired of watching our pitchers have to throw an extra 15 pitches because our shortstop has fall-down range. Ronny Cedeno, Robert Andino, Erick Aybar... just get one of them, bat him eighth and watch the middle infield defense improve drastically.

You made it sound as though you are limited your search to plus defenders. Hence, you would not accept Hanley Ramirez as your starting shortstop because he is a poor defender.

The last page had been dedicated to Janish v. Keppinger so I assumed you were chiming in with your opinion. I assumed you prefer Janish because he is a plus defender. Despite his D, Janish can't hit a lick and as long as Kepp hit somewhere between his 2007 and 2008 versions he'd have to be an extremely bad shorstop to lose the advantage over Janish...

BRM
12-15-2008, 05:43 PM
I'd rather have Janish than Keppinger. But I'd really prefer an Aybar type, a guy with good defense and potential in his bat.

Same here.

*BaseClogger*
12-15-2008, 05:45 PM
You stated you wanted a plus defender at SS. So he threw a ridiculous question at you. The actual question is do you want Janish or Keppinger at SS? Or do you want Walt to try to bring in a young SS like the ones you listed in your post?

I want a young SS too. my point is simply I'd much rather have Kepp at shortstop everyday than Janish...

BRM
12-15-2008, 05:46 PM
I want a young SS too. my point is simply I'd much rather have Kepp at shortstop everyday than Janish...

I still choose "none of the above". Although I understand "none of the above" may not be a realistic option.

OnBaseMachine
12-15-2008, 05:47 PM
If Keppinger could hit like Hanley Ramirez then of course I wouldn't mind his defense as much, but as we all know, Jeff Keppinger is no Hanley Ramirez.

*BaseClogger*
12-15-2008, 05:50 PM
I must say, the 2009 Marcel projections are discouraging in regards to Kepp and optimistic about Janish. If he could hit this well and play plus defense I'd take Janish (of course the confidence levels are much different). Here they are:

Paul Janish(.27): .248/.321/.385/.706/.312

Jeff Keppinger(.76): .278/.334/.392/.726/.319

WMR
12-15-2008, 05:50 PM
If Keppinger could hit like Hanley Ramirez then of course I wouldn't mind his defense as much, but as we all know, Jeff Keppinger is no Hanley Ramirez.

I've seen Hanley Ramirez, Mr. Keppinger, and you sir are no Hanley Ramirez.

BRM
12-15-2008, 05:51 PM
I want a young SS too. my point is simply I'd much rather have Kepp at shortstop everyday than Janish...

It just dawned on me that I may have to change my opinion and agree with you. If Taveras is playing CF, the Reds may have to go with Kepp at SS. The offense just won't be able to carry both Taveras and Janish's weak sticks in the lineup.

*BaseClogger*
12-15-2008, 05:51 PM
If I have one bias in regards to the Reds, it's my fanboy love for Jeff Keppinger... :D

WMR
12-15-2008, 05:52 PM
I must say, the 2009 Marcel projections are discouraging in regards to Kepp and optimistic about Janish. If he could hit this well and play plus defense I'd take Janish (of course the confidence levels are much different). Here they are:

Paul Janish(.27): .248/.321/.385/.706/.312

Jeff Keppinger(.76): .278/.334/.392/.726/.319

Honestly, if Janish could produce that line, batting 8th while playing GG caliber defense, I'd be very satisfied.

BRM
12-15-2008, 05:54 PM
If I have one bias in regards to the Reds, it's my fanboy love for Jeff Keppinger... :D

It's cool. We all have them. OBM's was Paul Bako. WMR's was Juan Castro. Ltlabner's was Corey Patterson. You get the idea.

nate
12-15-2008, 05:59 PM
Honestly, if Janish could produce that line, batting 8th while playing GG caliber defense, I'd be very satisfied.

Right on. That line in that situation would be a net plus as far as I'm concerned.

*BaseClogger*
12-15-2008, 06:00 PM
It's cool. We all have them. OBM's was Paul Bako. WMR's was Juan Castro. Ltlabner's was Corey Patterson. You get the idea.

BRM's was Javy Valentin... ;)

WMR
12-15-2008, 06:02 PM
It's cool. We all have them. OBM's was Paul Bako. WMR's was Juan Castro. Ltlabner's was Corey Patterson. You get the idea.

Don't make me start telling those stories about you making your old lady call you "Javy Pornstache."

jesusfan
12-15-2008, 06:02 PM
When speaking with Hal, Jock answered a question about AGon being ready for Spring Training by saying we have Keppinger, Janish and Hairston if he signs... Do you think Walt is thinking Hairston could play SS every-day? Taveras in CF (Blah) Hairston at SS and Rivera/whoever in LF?

*BaseClogger*
12-15-2008, 06:03 PM
When speaking with Hal, Jock answered a question about AGon being ready for Spring Training by saying we have Keppinger, Janish and Hairston if he signs... Do you think Walt is thinking Hairston could play SS every-day? Taveras in CF (Blah) Hairston at SS and Rivera/whoever in LF?

That's got to be the worst-case scenario...

Raisor
12-15-2008, 06:21 PM
That's got to be the worst-case scenario...

I try to warn people, and they don't listen.

Now, here comes Galactus to eat this thread.

http://www.gamerevolution.com/images/misc/galactus.jpg


NOW that's what I call a worst-case scenario.

Ltlabner
12-15-2008, 06:35 PM
Ltlabner's was Corey Patterson. You get the idea.

What the?

You sir have crossed a line.

kpresidente
12-15-2008, 06:36 PM
So, he wasn't good there even when he was healthy. Gotcha.

Yeah, but it's only 7 runs. If he goes .300/.350/.425 at the plate, then you're looking at about league average production overall.



edit: Ooops. That's wrong. At .300/.350/.425, Kepp would be about 20 RC over league-average. That would make up for his '08 UZR. In order to make up the 7 runs from '07, he only needs to hit around .260/.330/.400 to make league-average.

RedEye
12-15-2008, 10:26 PM
FWIW, there is still a mystery team in the running for Furcal (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ti-furcal121508&prov=yhoo&type=lgns).

From Yahoo! Sports:


Free agent shortstop Rafael Furcal will accept an offer from one of four teams by Tuesday, his agent, Paul Kinzer, said Monday afternoon.

Furcal is considering offers from the Oakland A’s, Los Angeles Dodgers, Kansas City Royals and one other team, Kinzer said, adding that the Toronto Blue Jays no longer are in the bidding.

Highlifeman21
12-15-2008, 10:32 PM
FWIW, there is still a mystery team in the running for Furcal (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ti-furcal121508&prov=yhoo&type=lgns).

From Yahoo! Sports:

Maybe it's the Reds.

Maybe we'll sign Furcal the drunk, and he can be teammates with Bradley the clubhouse cancer?

... I joke, but based on the Milton Bradley thread, it's like both of these guys are poster childs for a support group of some sort...

RedEye
12-15-2008, 10:35 PM
Maybe it's the Reds.

Maybe we'll sign Furcal the drunk, and he can be teammates with Bradley the clubhouse cancer?

... I joke, but based on the Milton Bradley thread, it's like both of these guys are poster childs for a support group of some sort...

If Walt signs Furcal and Bradley, I will be positively stoked for the 2009 season.

Highlifeman21
12-15-2008, 10:41 PM
If Walt signs Furcal and Bradley, I will be positively stoked for the 2009 season.

It would certainly be a different brand of Reds baseball in the Queen City.

Will M
12-15-2008, 11:13 PM
The Braves are the 'mystery team' trying to sign Furcal according to Foxsports

Blitz Dorsey
12-16-2008, 12:58 AM
Keppinger was the victim of a fluke injury last year. We see guys drill themselves with batted balls all the time. It hurts like hell and they shake it off. Not very often does someone break their kneecap. In fact, I've watched and listened to a ton of baseball over the years, and I don't remember ever hearing about something like that. The guy was on fire before the fluke injury and was really emerging as a solid top-of-the-lineup hitter. We'll never know how it would have turned out, but I think he would have ended up with a great year. He had no strength in his legs when he came back and his swing was different. We'll see how he comes back this year. He will need to hit the cover off the ball in spring training to remind everyone how well he can play when he's on.

Keppinger might never get a chance to be an everyday SS again. And I know pretty much everyone here (myself included) is hoping Alex Gonzalez is able to come back healthy and will be the Reds' starter this year. But Keppinger can be a solid backup and can fill the starting role for a long stretch if Gonzalez gets injured IMO.

I also like the idea of re-signing Hairston, especially now that Freel is gone. Hairston can fill the role of uber-utility man playing LF, CF, RF, 3B, SS and 2B. I like Hairston's stick too and his professional approach at the plate. Definitely don't want to see him as the starting SS for a long stretch like he was last year at one point, but I want him on the roster. I don't think Hairston will see much of any action at SS in 2009. Hopefully Gonzalez can hold the fort down and Keppinger will be a solid backup.

Ltlabner
12-16-2008, 06:09 AM
Not very often does someone break their kneecap.

IIRC this isn't the first time Kountry Kepp has injured his kneecap, or at the very least, his knee.

remdog
12-16-2008, 08:44 AM
Sorry. The dredded double post.

Rem

remdog
12-16-2008, 08:51 AM
Keppinger was the victim of a fluke injury last year. We see guys drill themselves with batted balls all the time. It hurts like hell and they shake it off. Not very often does someone break their kneecap. In fact, I've watched and listened to a ton of baseball over the years, and I don't remember ever hearing about something like that.

I've been following baseball since '54. I've never seen a ballplayer break his kneecap on a foul ball before. And, I agree that he came back too soon. Especially since the Reds had no chance with the team they rolled out in '08.

Rem

remdog
12-16-2008, 08:53 AM
IIRC this isn't the first time Kountry Kepp has injured his kneecap, or at the very least, his knee.

Details please.

Rem

buckeyenut
12-16-2008, 08:55 AM
I think we may be underestimating the impact that a ++ SS could have on this team. We have some very good starting pitching, with the potential to be outstanding. If those guys could go an extra 2 outs a game due to better defense, we have better pitching on the field late in the game, a more well rested bullpen and less chance of blowing out our young arms. With current options, Janish should start every day regardless of what he hits.

Mario-Rijo
12-16-2008, 09:03 AM
Details please.

Rem

MLB.Com 2/8/06 (http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060207&content_id=1308073&vkey=spt2006news&fext=.jsp&c_id=nym)


Returning from injury
Jeff Keppinger, 2B: The former shortstop was batting .337 in Triple-A on June 15 when a takeout slide at second base took him out for the rest of 2005. A broken left kneecap was the diagnosis. The prognosis now is positive, but he seemingly is behind Hernandez at second base.

remdog
12-16-2008, 09:08 AM
Thank you.

Rem

Mario-Rijo
12-16-2008, 09:14 AM
Thank you.

Rem

Your Welcome.

BRM
12-16-2008, 09:18 AM
BRM's was Javy Valentin... ;)

Nah, he is Chip's guy.

puca
12-16-2008, 12:29 PM
I think we may be underestimating the impact that a ++ SS could have on this team. We have some very good starting pitching, with the potential to be outstanding. If those guys could go an extra 2 outs a game due to better defense, we have better pitching on the field late in the game, a more well rested bullpen and less chance of blowing out our young arms. With current options, Janish should start every day regardless of what he hits.

I agree with you, although I'm not that sold on Janish's defense. If they are going the defensive route (and I think they should), I think they could pretty easily do better than Janish.

When Keppinger was a Mets prospect, they didn't feel he even had the range to play 2b in the majors. That should tell you something.

Scrap Irony
12-16-2008, 12:53 PM
That the Mets didn't know what they had?

Keppinger profiles as a positive contributor offensively and an average to above average glove at second base. At SS, he's below average, though not as bad as he was in 2008 while playing on a broken knee. This assumes, of course, that Keppinger will be used correctly in 09 and that he will be injury-free, with no ill effects from that kneecap.

puca
12-16-2008, 01:11 PM
That the Mets didn't know what they had?

Keppinger profiles as a positive contributor offensively and an average to above average glove at second base. At SS, he's below average, though not as bad as he was in 2008 while playing on a broken knee. This assumes, of course, that Keppinger will be used correctly in 09 and that he will be injury-free, with no ill effects from that kneecap.

How exactly does Keppinger profile to be average to above average defensively at 2b? His range is minimal. I have never heard anyone outside of Redszone claim that Keppinger was an asset defensively anywhere on the diamond.

It wasn't his bat that kept him from getting an extended look before 2007.

Scrap Irony
12-16-2008, 03:50 PM
You're absolutely right, puca. No defensive metric makes Keppinger an average or above average 2B at this point. He's decidedly below average. By around seven runs/ 150 games, according to UZR. At SS, he's about the same, when healthy.

At 3B and in the OF, Keppinger is above average, according to the same information, so he is above average somewhere.

Hyperbole, thy name is me.

TRF
12-16-2008, 03:55 PM
You're absolutely right, puca. No defensive metric makes Keppinger an average or above average 2B at this point. He's decidedly below average. By around seven runs/ 150 games, according to UZR. At SS, he's about the same, when healthy.

Hyperbole, thy name is me.


and the point is fairly moot as it keeps getting hammered to me that the Reds wouldn't entertain the idea of BP at SS. Thinking about the defensive qualities of Keppinger at 2B die right there.

M2
12-16-2008, 04:00 PM
My take on SS is the Reds would be well-served to get a long-term solution in place, otherwise it will be an annual scramble at that position. The long-term solution should come equipped with a good glove and some offensive upside, though the reality might be that the kid won't contribute much at the plate to start (count me among those willing to wait on the bat if the glove is good, provided there's a bat to wait on - e.g. not Paul Janish).

As for whether the Reds will go out and find that long-term answer or stand pat, if I had to place a bet my money would be on stand pat.

Scrap Irony
12-16-2008, 04:08 PM
The best defensive SS to win a World Series the past decade was probably Jimmy Rollins or perhaps our own Poley Reese. And, while they're good, the rest of the list is decidedly non-defensive. A good fielding SS is not a pre-requisite to winning baseball.

BRM
12-16-2008, 04:13 PM
The best defensive SS to win a World Series the past decade was probably Jimmy Rollins or perhaps our own Poley Reese. And, while they're good, the rest of the list is decidedly non-defensive. A good fielding SS is not a pre-requisite to winning baseball.

Eckstein was a plus defender in '06 according to the Fielding Bible. I was under the impression Juan Uribe and Alex Gonzalez were plus defenders as well. The only blatantly non-defensive ones I see are Jeter and Lugo.

M2
12-16-2008, 04:27 PM
The best defensive SS to win a World Series the past decade was probably Jimmy Rollins or perhaps our own Poley Reese. And, while they're good, the rest of the list is decidedly non-defensive. A good fielding SS is not a pre-requisite to winning baseball.

Orlando Cabrera became the Red Sox SS in the latter portion of 2004 and he could/can field quite well. Juan Uribe had a groovy year in the field for the 2005 ChiSox, deserved a Gold Glove IMO.

Alex Gonzalez was pretty much all glove for the Marlins.

Anyway, a gifted defensive SS isn't a prerequisite, but when your defense is as awful as the Reds have been in recent years, an upgrade is in order. Plus, we're talking about the Cincinnati Reds here. The franchise has been built on quality up-the-middle defense dating back to the 1800s.

OnBaseMachine
12-23-2008, 12:51 PM
Andino still being shopped by Marlins

At the Winter Meetings earlier this month, Robert Andino's name came up in trade discussions. Even though the Marlins have been quiet since leaving Las Vegas, they continue to discuss moving Andino.

The 24-year-old backup infielder, who split his 2008 season with the Marlins and Triple-A Albuquerque, is out of options. If they can find a match in a low-level trade, they'd pull the trigger. The Pirates seem the most viable option, according to a league source.

At the Winter Meetings, the Marlins and Pirates had talks involving Andino. At the time, the name floated around to head to Florida was infielder Brian Bixler, a 26-year-old who spent most of last year in Triple-A.

It's unclear if Bixler would be part of an Andino trade now, but acquiring a middle infielder for Triple-A would be a fit for Florida. Bixler has some big league service time, and he has options remaining. Typically, the Marlins seek at least one pitcher in any trade they make. For Andino, though, the team may end up swapping middle infielders.

-- Joe Frisaro

http://hotstove.mlblogs.com/archives/2008/12/andino_still_being_shopped_by.html

Get him, Walt.

Mario-Rijo
12-23-2008, 04:37 PM
Andino still being shopped by Marlins

At the Winter Meetings earlier this month, Robert Andino's name came up in trade discussions. Even though the Marlins have been quiet since leaving Las Vegas, they continue to discuss moving Andino.

The 24-year-old backup infielder, who split his 2008 season with the Marlins and Triple-A Albuquerque, is out of options. If they can find a match in a low-level trade, they'd pull the trigger. The Pirates seem the most viable option, according to a league source.

At the Winter Meetings, the Marlins and Pirates had talks involving Andino. At the time, the name floated around to head to Florida was infielder Brian Bixler, a 26-year-old who spent most of last year in Triple-A.

It's unclear if Bixler would be part of an Andino trade now, but acquiring a middle infielder for Triple-A would be a fit for Florida. Bixler has some big league service time, and he has options remaining. Typically, the Marlins seek at least one pitcher in any trade they make. For Andino, though, the team may end up swapping middle infielders.

-- Joe Frisaro

http://hotstove.mlblogs.com/archives/2008/12/andino_still_being_shopped_by.html

Get him, Walt.

Straight up for Janish or Richar seems about right too me.

Spitball
12-23-2008, 09:23 PM
I brought his name up on another thread, but I'd like to see the Reds pursue Brandon Wood from the Angels. He swings through lots of pitches but hits the ball a long way when he makes contact. He struggled early last season but mostly because he didn't play regularly enough to get his offensive rhythmn. He hit much better late in the season and appeared to be making srides with his pitch recognition.

He has intriguing offensive potential, but his defense is surprisingly strong. He has soft hands, quick feet, and smooth body control. His first step and mechanics are very sound.

Wood for Encarnacion and the Reds would have a long term answer at short.

WebScorpion
12-24-2008, 09:42 AM
Wood for Encarnacion and the Reds would have a long term answer at short.
The guy I'd really like to pry from the Angels is Sean Rodriguez, but I think they want to keep his stick around...they seem to be grooming him for a supersub or to take second base. If we had him, I'd play him at SS every day and never look back. Wood is a little different in that I'm less sure his hitting will develop, but I'd still prefer him to any option we have except a fully healthy Alex Gonzalez, which I don't think will ever exist a gain.

Wood is also another guy who I'd consider swapping straight up for Bailey. It seems like a move that could benefit both teams AND both players. Both guys seem to need a change of scenery and both were highly touted prospects who've lost a bit of their luster in trying to break into the big leagues. Either one (or hopefully both) could be primed for a breakout season in 2009. Could be another trade where both teams win. :thumbup:

If I can't swap Bailey for either Hermida or Wood, my preference is to keep him and see what he can do in 2009. Well, there are other guys I'd swap him for (like Sean Rodriguez) but I don't consider those real possibilities. I wouldn't trade him for a player at the back end of his career like Dye.

So after rambling all over the place, my answer is Brandon Wood would be fine with me. :thumbup:

pahster
12-24-2008, 10:30 AM
I brought his name up on another thread, but I'd like to see the Reds pursue Brandon Wood from the Angels. He swings through lots of pitches but hits the ball a long way when he makes contact. He struggled early last season but mostly because he didn't play regularly enough to get his offensive rhythmn. He hit much better late in the season and appeared to be making srides with his pitch recognition.

He has intriguing offensive potential, but his defense is surprisingly strong. He has soft hands, quick feet, and smooth body control. His first step and mechanics are very sound.

Wood for Encarnacion and the Reds would have a long term answer at short.

I don't know anything about his glove, but his minor league numbers are beastly and he's only 23.

Minor league career: .285/.353/.539/.892

Of course, so far in 68 major league games, his OPS+ is a stunningly bad 37.

Spitball
12-24-2008, 11:09 AM
Wood is also another guy who I'd consider swapping straight up for Bailey. It seems like a move that could benefit both teams AND both players. Both guys seem to need a change of scenery and both were highly touted prospects who've lost a bit of their luster in trying to break into the big leagues. Either one (or hopefully both) could be primed for a breakout season in 2009. Could be another trade where both teams win.

I have had the exact same thoughts about Bailey for Wood.



I don't know anything about his glove, but his minor league numbers are beastly and he's only 23.

I think there is a misconception about his glove because there has always been speculation that he would be moved to third, but that has been because of the Angels' depth at the position and not his abilities as a shortstop. He is actually smooth fielder at short. Aybar doesn't have the power for third so Wood was the logical player between the two to move.