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HeatherC1212
12-13-2008, 08:58 PM
Sam Bradford won the Heisman Trophy tonight. :) All three of the guys were very classy tonight but I'm thrilled Tebow didn't win again since I think the other two had better years. I'm watching Sam give his speech on ESPN and I think he's about to break down and cry, LOL :laugh:

Congrats Sam!! :D

cincrazy
12-13-2008, 09:00 PM
Whew, the Scarlet and Gray faithful can breathe a sigh of relief. BOOMER SOONER! :)

MWM
12-13-2008, 09:18 PM
I think they got it right. When you step back and look at how good he's been this year, it's quite staggering. I think it will be between Tebow and Bradford next year as well. Heck, even McCoy might be int he mix, too.

Chip R
12-13-2008, 09:53 PM
Whew, the Scarlet and Gray faithful can breathe a sigh of relief. BOOMER SOONER! :)


Just curious, why is this good for tOSU? I must be missing something.

*BaseClogger*
12-13-2008, 09:55 PM
Just curious, why is this good for tOSU? I must be missing something.

Archie! :D

Chip R
12-13-2008, 10:01 PM
Archie! :D


Oh, O.K. :doh:

improbus
12-13-2008, 10:12 PM
I would have voted for Tebow. Imagine the stats he would have put up playing against those Big 12 Defenses that McCoy faced. Missouri was 118th against the pass, Kansas 112th, OkSt 107th, Texas, 106th, KState 102nd, Baylor 101st, etc...). Constrast that with Tebow who faced SCarolina 4th, Tennessee 5th, FSU 9th, etc...) For a "Running" QB to have a 14-1 TD to Int ratio is beyond insane. Bradford was great, but he was only sacked 9 times this year (McCoy was sacked 20 times and Tebow 15). He gets to sit back and throw to two NFL receiver and a top 15 pick at TE. I think any above average QB could have steered that offense. Nobody can do what Tebow does and the only guy who can come close was McCoy.

*BaseClogger*
12-13-2008, 10:16 PM
I would have voted for Tebow. Imagine the stats he would have put up playing against those Big 12 Defenses that McCoy faced. Missouri was 118th against the pass, Kansas 112th, OkSt 107th, Texas, 106th, KState 102nd, Baylor 101st, etc...).

Catch 22? Maybe those pass defenses are ranked so low because they had to face Big 12 offenses? ;)

improbus
12-13-2008, 10:21 PM
Catch 22? Maybe those pass defenses are ranked so low because they had to face Big 12 offenses? ;)

Somewhat, but if Texas could have tackled they would be undefeated and in the BCS title game. Also, if you noticed, Oklahoma started to play some defense down the stretch and they were able to shut down Missouri and a few other teams.
Put it this way, if you switch Bradford with Matthew Stafford at Georgia, does their season look any different?

MWM
12-13-2008, 10:45 PM
Sorry, but the only real good defense in the SEC is Florida, and Alabama? I don't think the defenses Florida faced were any better than Oklahoma.

MWM
12-13-2008, 10:49 PM
Put it this way, if you switch Bradford with Matthew Stafford at Georgia, does their season look any different?
For one, Stafford is a really good QB. Secondly, Georgia's problems were defense, not offense, so I don't see how Stafford is somehow to blame for the team's struggles. Finally, I do believe Bradford is better than Stafford. Stafford is really good, but he makes some bonehead plays sometimes. Bradford is the smarter player.

Put it this way, I don't Florida would have been any worse with Stafford or Bradford. That team is loaded from top to bottom. No one plays with more weapns than Tebow. Everyone wants to apply all kinds of filters to the performance of other players, but I rarely, if ever, see the same filters applied to Tebow. Heck, look at what Alex Smith did in that system. Tebow is very good, but he benefits from a superior system as much as any QB. He's perfect for that system, but I think there are plenty of QBs out there who'd thrive in that system as well.

Vada Pinson Fan
12-14-2008, 08:13 AM
Archie's reign may be over next year when the 2009 Heisman is awarded once again. Each of the top 3 were very deserving, but personally, I'm glad Sam Bradford won. Oklahoma with Bradford, et al, is a monster!

improbus
12-14-2008, 08:29 AM
For one, Stafford is a really good QB. Secondly, Georgia's problems were defense, not offense, so I don't see how Stafford is somehow to blame for the team's struggles. Finally, I do believe Bradford is better than Stafford. Stafford is really good, but he makes some bonehead plays sometimes. Bradford is the smarter player.

Put it this way, I don't Florida would have been any worse with Stafford or Bradford. That team is loaded from top to bottom. No one plays with more weapns than Tebow. Everyone wants to apply all kinds of filters to the performance of other players, but I rarely, if ever, see the same filters applied to Tebow. Heck, look at what Alex Smith did in that system. Tebow is very good, but he benefits from a superior system as much as any QB. He's perfect for that system, but I think there are plenty of QBs out there who'd thrive in that system as well.
And Oklahoma doesn't? They have four other offensive players expected to go in the top 100 in the draft (TE, WR, OT, OG). Florida has two WR's (if you would call Harvin a WR) ranked in the top 100 and that is all, and Texas has 1 (OG). Two other things. How many Heisman Trophy winners actually LOST to one of the other candidate during the season? Oklahoma's offense is only marginally better than the other Big 12 offenses while Florida is light years ahead of the other SEC offenses. Finally, the most valuable player on Oklahoma isn't even Bradford, it's DeMarco Murray and Chris Brown. Oklahoma lost to UT because they only ran for 40 yards.

MWM
12-14-2008, 12:05 PM
How many Heisman Trophy winners actually LOST to one of the other candidate during the season?

Dont' know. But I don't see how that's relevant considering QBs don't play 1-on-1. Somewhere along the line, wins and losses became a major component of the Heisman trophy, which is completely unfortunate in my mind. It's one of the few major sports awards that was always just about the individual player and their greatness on the field. I don't know when it started, but it has now become a trophy mostly for QBs, and the occassional RB, on top 5 teams. I think the Heisman trophy as a whole has become a lot less interesting and is quickly going the way of the gold glove - a popularity contest. You have to be a "candidate" from the beginning of the season to have any chance. You have to play for a very prominent program, and you have to score TDs. I'd love to see it become about just being an outstanding player like it used to be.


Oklahoma's offense is only marginally better than the other Big 12 offenses while Florida is light years ahead of the other SEC offenses.

Again, I must just be missing something, but I don't see how this has anything at all to do with the Heisma trophy. It's an argument that's as much about other teams in a conference, than the individual player. All you're saying here is that the offenses in the Big 12 were better than that of the SEC. I don't see how that makes Tebow any better. This is an individual award about how great an individual player is. Once again, conferences are figuring way too prominently in college football discussions. I'm not sure if it's always been this way, but I think the impact of conferences in general are WAY overblown in a lot of college football debates. Individual players and individual teams are becoming secondary to the conference they play in. I always look at the player or the team first. The conferences aren't nearly as important, IMO.

It's just my opinion that Bradford was the more outstanding player this year. And as to your point of arguing that DeMarco Murray was that team's MVP, I completely disagree. Bradford was the motor of that offense. I watched OU play several times this year and I watched Florida play a few as well. Bradford was the differene maker for OU moreso than Tebow, IMO. And you could probably argue that Harvin was as valuable as Tebow on the year as well. When it's all said and done, it's one person's opinions and biases versus others. I think Crabtree should have been in the top 3. I think there are other players that should have garnered some consideration as well, but were never even considered because they were never hyped in the pre-season, they didn't play QB, and they didn't play for a top 5 program.

redsbuckeye
12-15-2008, 11:33 AM
I was hoping McCoy would win it. The Heisman has been a bit of a curse in recent years.

Jack Burton
12-15-2008, 06:17 PM
Congrats to Bradford, he deserved it. Tebow got 309 1st place votes??? I just don't get it, he didn't have the numbers.

Highlifeman21
12-15-2008, 06:39 PM
Congrats to Bradford, he deserved it. Tebow got 309 1st place votes??? I just don't get it, he didn't have the numbers.

Tebow played some damn inspired ball after UF lost to Ole Miss.

I'm not sure if anyone played better than him in the nation over that time span.

improbus
12-15-2008, 06:51 PM
It's just my opinion that Bradford was the more outstanding player this year. And as to your point of arguing that DeMarco Murray was that team's MVP, I completely disagree. Bradford was the motor of that offense. I watched OU play several times this year and I watched Florida play a few as well. Bradford was the differene maker for OU moreso than Tebow, IMO. And you could probably argue that Harvin was as valuable as Tebow on the year as well. When it's all said and done, it's one person's opinions and biases versus others. I think Crabtree should have been in the top 3. I think there are other players that should have garnered some consideration as well, but were never even considered because they were never hyped in the pre-season, they didn't play QB, and they didn't play for a top 5 program.
Here is what I see:
-Oklahoma has 4 other offensive players in the top 100 players going into the current NFL draft (WR, TE, OG, OT), Florida has two (2 WR's), Texas 1 (OT).
-Oklahoma has a history of producing ridiculous numbers with overrated QB's. Remember Josh Heupel? Jason White?
-When Oklahoma puts up huge offensive numbers it is considered dominant. When Texas Tech puts up huge offensive numbers, it is considered quirky and produces system QB's. Again, remember Josh Heupel and Jason White? What is the difference? It says Oklahoma on the front of their jersey.
-If Texas DB tackles Crabtree, then Colt McCoy wins the award. How is that right?
-Upon further investigation, I think that Oklahoma's Offensive Line was their most valuable player/unit. Oklahoma can run the football (they are the best non-option rushing team in the country) and they kept Bradford upright. They lost to Texas because they couldn't run the ball, despite Bradford's 387 yards and 5 TD's.
-As far as Harvin being Florida's MVP, they didn't need him to beat the #1 team in the country in the SEC title game, so I'm not sure that I buy that argument.
-Here is my rational for Tebow. If I were building a team, I would pick Tebow 1, McCoy 2, and Bradford 3. Oklahoma is the perfect storm. Bradford is a great player, but he is a product of playing with an insane amount of talent. Put him on OSU and you're looking at a slightly better version of Todd Boeckman.

Yachtzee
12-15-2008, 09:24 PM
Here is what I see:
-Oklahoma has 4 other offensive players in the top 100 players going into the current NFL draft (WR, TE, OG, OT), Florida has two (2 WR's), Texas 1 (OT).
-Oklahoma has a history of producing ridiculous numbers with overrated QB's. Remember Josh Heupel? Jason White?
-When Oklahoma puts up huge offensive numbers it is considered dominant. When Texas Tech puts up huge offensive numbers, it is considered quirky and produces system QB's. Again, remember Josh Heupel and Jason White? What is the difference? It says Oklahoma on the front of their jersey.
-If Texas DB tackles Crabtree, then Colt McCoy wins the award. How is that right?
-Upon further investigation, I think that Oklahoma's Offensive Line was their most valuable player/unit. Oklahoma can run the football (they are the best non-option rushing team in the country) and they kept Bradford upright. They lost to Texas because they couldn't run the ball, despite Bradford's 387 yards and 5 TD's.
-As far as Harvin being Florida's MVP, they didn't need him to beat the #1 team in the country in the SEC title game, so I'm not sure that I buy that argument.
-Here is my rational for Tebow. If I were building a team, I would pick Tebow 1, McCoy 2, and Bradford 3. Oklahoma is the perfect storm. Bradford is a great player, but he is a product of playing with an insane amount of talent. Put him on OSU and you're looking at a slightly better version of Todd Boeckman.

If I were building a team, I would probably avoid QBs from the big football factories in favor of a top QB from a school in a conference like the MAC. I think big conference QBs tend to be overrated. The BCS conferences produce great teams because they have the resources to recruit the biggest and best players on the OL and DL, which tend to make their QBs look better than they are. I hear the Ball State QB is pretty good.

MWM
12-15-2008, 09:49 PM
I appreciate your arguments, improbus. I don't think they're poor arguments or not well reasoned. i just see it differently. The Heisman trophy is probbsly the least objective award there is. So we both have our preferences.

And to answer your last question, Tebow is not even in the top few QBs I'd choose as crazy as that may sound. I prefer more of the traditional style QB. I don't think Tebow would be anything special outside of a Florida type system. As I've said before, I think Tebow is a product of the system. Very talented - yes. But a dominant player in any system? Not in my opinion. That's just how I see it. It's not personal. I have nothing but respect for Tebow. But I don't see him in the same light some others do.

Highlifeman21
12-15-2008, 10:58 PM
The Heisman is worse than a league MVP in baseball....

They're both really bad popularity contests, based on stats that aren't consistent across the board....

What did the Big 12 do this year? Score truckloads of points.

What did the Big 12 not do this year? Play defense.

So, combine good offenses, playing crappy defenses, and you see plenty of scoring, and inflated stats for your skill positions in the Big 12.

Am I saying Bradford or McCoy or Harrell aren't good QBs? Absolutely not. FWIW, I think Harrell's the best of the bunch.

However, if you put any of their respective teams in conferences that actually played D, and even with their immense talent, I don't think any of them wins the Heisman.

improbus
12-16-2008, 06:27 PM
I appreciate your arguments, improbus. I don't think they're poor arguments or not well reasoned. i just see it differently. The Heisman trophy is probbsly the least objective award there is. So we both have our preferences.

And to answer your last question, Tebow is not even in the top few QBs I'd choose as crazy as that may sound. I prefer more of the traditional style QB. I don't think Tebow would be anything special outside of a Florida type system. As I've said before, I think Tebow is a product of the system. Very talented - yes. But a dominant player in any system? Not in my opinion. That's just how I see it. It's not personal. I have nothing but respect for Tebow. But I don't see him in the same light some others do.

I guess that I am always leery of buying too much into Oklahoma. They have shown themselves to be a paper tiger more often than not. I disagree that Tebow can't succeed in other systems. He's not Vince Young or Vick who completed around 50% of their passes. He is a career 66% passer and if given the same number of pass attempts as Bradford, he would have thrown for 4,150 yards. This season, Florida had better runners surrounding Tebow and they didn't need Tebow to do everything. He threw the ball almost 90 times less and ran 60 times less. That is not his fault.
I'm not trying to rag on Bradford, but his numbers are as much opportunity as skill. I do think that this is the best year for college QB's in years. Between Tebow, Bradford, McCoy, Stafford, Daniel, Harrell, college FB has been blessed with some great signal callers. Now, if only the Big Ten could get a few....

Finally, I just read that DeMarco Murray is out for the title game, so we might just get to see how much he meant to Oklahoma. I'm either going to look like a genius or a complete moron, which is nothing new.