PDA

View Full Version : Reds Sign Laynce Nix



RedLegSuperStar
12-15-2008, 10:10 AM
Fay says its a minor league contract. 600,000 if he makes the roster + incentives that could push the deal to 1.1MM

RedLegSuperStar
12-15-2008, 10:13 AM
I like the move.. I've always liked Nix. I can see him being the 5th OFer filling out the bench. Bruce, LF, Dickerson, CF platoon, and Nix.

edabbs44
12-15-2008, 10:14 AM
Nix got ripped...he should have hired CPatt's agent. :)

membengal
12-15-2008, 10:16 AM
Nix's stats, majors and minors, if you are interested in a refresher:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/n/nixla01.shtml

http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=10495

Bats left, throws left.

pahster
12-15-2008, 10:16 AM
Hopefully Jocketty puts together a decent enough outfield that he doesn't make the team.

Career: .235/.272/.401/OPS+ 69

Blimpie
12-15-2008, 10:19 AM
I thought signing any more lefty outfielders this winter were verboten.

REDREAD
12-15-2008, 10:20 AM
Yeah, I also hope that Nix doesn't make the roster, but this seems like a decent move for depth. We needed an OF in Louisville in case injuries on the ML OF happened.

Jpup
12-15-2008, 10:23 AM
I can't wait to hear an explanation for this.

membengal
12-15-2008, 10:24 AM
Maybe Jocketty is hoping to catch Ludwick-in-a-bottle with Nix. Worth a flier I suppose. Ludwick's year with St. Louis last year still amazes me. That came almost out of nowhere, and came late in his career. Ludwick's minor league numbers are not too much better than Nix's...

http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=8610

Jpup
12-15-2008, 10:25 AM
I also can't believe he got that much money after only make just over 300 for the last few years. I would be surprised if that was correct.

HokieRed
12-15-2008, 10:34 AM
Nix has 246 K's in 875 major league AB's. Hard to see much help coming from that. Let's hope he's not needed in Cinti.

lollipopcurve
12-15-2008, 10:39 AM
In 300+ PAs vs. RHPs last year at Nashville, Nix went .295/.357/.545/.903. Will play the 09 season at 28 years old.

If Danny Dorn put up those numbers in AAA, people would be proclaiming him ready for a full-time major-league platoon.

Nix plays all 3 OF positions. I'd say it's very solid get on a minor league deal. It seems Nix was rushed in his early 20s. At one point in time, he showed good plate discipline (lower minors), but that went out the window for some reason. My guess is that he's a smarter player now with something to prove.

TRF
12-15-2008, 10:41 AM
And he's very scrappy.

wheels
12-15-2008, 10:45 AM
Could be a lefty off the bench at best. I doubt he's being brought in as an answer to any of the club's more pressing needs.

Cyclone792
12-15-2008, 10:54 AM
Hopefully he's nothing more than AAA outfield depth filler that never sees the big league roster.

Kc61
12-15-2008, 11:01 AM
I thought signing any more lefty outfielders this winter were verboten.

The Reds do need a lefty bat off the bench. With Valentin gone, the team needs someone to pinch hit against righty pitchers. Nix would seem to be a candidate. He could also be the fifth outfielder.

I think Nix is more likely to be the fifth outfielder than Hopper.

So, you would have, let's say, Dye in left, Dickerson/Taveras in center, Bruce in right, Nix on the bench. (Just kidding about Taveras, just being difficult.)

TRF
12-15-2008, 11:06 AM
I'm going out on a limb here and saying Nix is the starting LF. I hope I'm wrong, he's a nice bat off the bench, but I have a sneaky feeling Walt sees more that that in his future.

membengal
12-15-2008, 11:09 AM
TRF: that would be the case if he is trying for Ludwick-in-a-bottle at any rate.

I hope he isn't.

Joseph
12-15-2008, 11:10 AM
I can't wait to see Nix at my favorite Louisville area eateries this coming season.

pahster
12-15-2008, 11:11 AM
I'm going out on a limb here and saying Nix is the starting LF. I hope I'm wrong, he's a nice bat off the bench, but I have a sneaky feeling Walt sees more that that in his future.

I figure if Nix gets that kind of playing time he's probably hitting well enough to deserve it.

chicoruiz
12-15-2008, 11:12 AM
Just looked at his numbers... boy, he's never seen a thrown baseball he didn't like...

Highlifeman21
12-15-2008, 11:26 AM
I like the move.. I've always liked Nix. I can see him being the 5th OFer filling out the bench. Bruce, LF, Dickerson, CF platoon, and Nix.

I've always liked Nix as well.

He's in that category of "guys I like, yet I'm not sure why", which include:

Denorfia, Chris
Branyan, Russell
Hinske, Eric



What I do know about Nix is that he's better than Norris Hopper. So, any move that creates more distance between Hopper and the 25 man roster is a good move, IMO.

At best, Nix is our 4th OF.

Unfortunately, we still need a 3rd OF to accompany Bruce and Dickerson.

pahster
12-15-2008, 11:29 AM
What I do know about Nix is that he's better than Norris Hopper. So, any move that creates more distance between Hopper and the 25 man roster is a good move, IMO.

I dunno, his career OBP is .272. His minor league numbers are better than Hopper's, so I guess you could be right.

HokieRed
12-15-2008, 12:05 PM
I'm liking Nix as the alternative to Taveras. We need a left-handed bat off the bench in any case so that's one reason to look at him. But without Hairston, Nix/Hopper can be the backup plan in CF if Dickerson can't claim the position--I think he'll do this but WJ has got to have a plan behind him. Or, if we can still sign Hairston, it's Nix/Hairston as the alternative to Dickerson--with both of them still being useful to the team if Dickerson proves he can play every day. So we could be looking at an outfield of Bruce, Dickerson, RH bat still to be gotten, Hairston or Hopper, Nix. Bench: Hanigan, Rosales, Keppinger, Nix, Hairston or Hopper. What I find encouraging is I'm not seeing room or need for Taveras.

corkedbat
12-15-2008, 12:26 PM
I thought signing any more lefty outfielders this winter were verboten.

Only in LF :D

Strikes Out Looking
12-15-2008, 12:34 PM
He's this years Bubba Crosby. BTW, whatever happened to Bubbafan? I miss him, and I hope we soon hear from someone named Nixstheone!

flyer85
12-15-2008, 12:37 PM
nothing to see here ... move along

Tom Servo
12-15-2008, 12:37 PM
C'Mon guys, we're going to have to get cracking here if we want this thread to come close to matching the Bubba Crosby signing of 06. It set the standard for underachieving left handed outfielders recieving little money and a minor league deal.

corkedbat
12-15-2008, 12:41 PM
I'm hoping Nix is the 6th OF and has a nice prodcutive seasin in Louisville.

I'm guessing that they still add a fairly potent bat in LF (RH'd) and Hairston to platoon in CF with Dickerson

I'm praying this ends any thoughts of Taveras

RedlegNation
12-15-2008, 12:51 PM
I'm going out on a limb here and saying Nix is the starting LF. I hope I'm wrong, he's a nice bat off the bench, but I have a sneaky feeling Walt sees more that that in his future.

Ugh. Perish the thought.

My initial reaction to signings of this type is to refuse to get very worked up about it. He's a AAAA-type, and isn't going to play enough to really kill the team. If he starts, though...well, ugh.

I can't imagine he will be the starting LF on Opening Day. I'd be very surprised.

That said, I don't know who is going to be playing there. Something has to give soon or the Reds will have a VERY poor-hitting outfield.

RedEye
12-15-2008, 12:54 PM
Might want to spell his name correctly on the thread title: Laynce. The "y" always stuck in my head for some reason, perhaps because it is so unexpected.

Tom Servo
12-15-2008, 12:59 PM
Might want to spell his name correctly on the thread title: Laynce. The "y" always stuck in my head for some reason, perhaps because it is so unexpected.
Plus his brother is Jayson Nix.

wheels
12-15-2008, 01:00 PM
Plus his brother is Jayson Nix.

I'll never understand adding an unneccessary letter to a first name.

RedEye
12-15-2008, 01:13 PM
I don't know how "Laynce" is pronounced. "Jayson" is pretty clearly the same as the conventional name... but Laynce? Is it LAY-nce? Because that's just an odd name--but memorable!

VR
12-15-2008, 01:14 PM
I'll never understand adding an unneccessary letter to a first name.

kind of like the 'h' in wheels, eh/?;)

OnBaseMachine
12-15-2008, 01:19 PM
That unnecessary Y is awesome. I need to try that. OBYM. Or Branydon.

TRF
12-15-2008, 01:21 PM
That unnecessary Y is awesome. I need to try that. OBYM. Or Branydon.

I totally read OBYM as OBGYN.

RichRed
12-15-2008, 01:23 PM
I'll never understand adding an unneccessary letter to a first name.

Thom Brennaman wants to have a word with you.

blumj
12-15-2008, 01:24 PM
That unnecessary Y is awesome. I need to try that. OBYM. Or Branydon.
OnBayseMachine.

OnBaseMachine
12-15-2008, 01:27 PM
OnBayseMachine.

I love it.

Mario-Rijo
12-15-2008, 01:29 PM
I totally read OBYM as OBGYN.

:D So did I just for a split second.

nate
12-15-2008, 01:37 PM
Nayte thinks this is a "meh" move.

Unless Laynce makes the opening day roster, then he haytes it.

Falls City Beer
12-15-2008, 02:18 PM
Ixnay

Patrick Bateman
12-15-2008, 02:25 PM
There are a lot of reasons why Nix isn't going to be of much use as a Red, but as far as minor league signings go, these are the types I like. The Reds don't have much help in the high minors, so grabbing guys with talent on minor league deals is a nice thing.

Odds are that Nix is going to continue being Laynce Nix, but the ooccassional guy does have the unexpected breakout, and we don't have to play him in the majors to find out. It sure beats the lose lose situation of finding a 34 year old version of Nix.

corkedbat
12-15-2008, 02:41 PM
corkeydbat :)

wheels
12-15-2008, 03:55 PM
kind of like the 'h' in wheels, eh/?;)

Yeah, but my real name is Jon.

No "h" in that bad boy. My Momma practiced what I preach, or something.

camisadelgolf
12-15-2008, 03:58 PM
If the Reds are going to sign a 28-year-old to a minor league contract, it should at least be someone with a ceiling, which is true of Nix. Dickerson is no guarantee to produce nor stay healthy, and if the Reds do a platoon in center, Nix could potentially step in and make a positive difference. I'd say this signing is good insurance.

Scrap Irony
12-15-2008, 05:31 PM
Nice lightning in a bottle potential, but not likely earth-shattering. Meh is right, I think.

But I really disagree with the idea that Cincinnati is low on upper level OF talent. Actually, there are too many to put in AAA at this point. AAA OFs are Stubbs, Henry, Cumberland, and Dorn. All have done well enough to warrant AAA time, as two have already done the AAA gig and the other two have solid numbers in AA. (It's time to see what you have in Dorn and Henry, IMO. Both could become really intriguing with another good year; both could flop with a poor one, though I really like Dorn. A lot.)

So Nix at the AAA level makes little sense. This is, IMO, a fifth OF move. Same with Hopper.

Unfortunately, you only get one fifth OF.

*BaseClogger*
12-15-2008, 05:48 PM
On the plus side, Nix plays good CF defense...

Will M
12-15-2008, 06:32 PM
Nice lightning in a bottle potential, but not likely earth-shattering. Meh is right, I think.

But I really disagree with the idea that Cincinnati is low on upper level OF talent. Actually, there are too many to put in AAA at this point. AAA OFs are Stubbs, Henry, Cumberland, and Dorn. All have done well enough to warrant AAA time, as two have already done the AAA gig and the other two have solid numbers in AA. (It's time to see what you have in Dorn and Henry, IMO. Both could become really intriguing with another good year; both could flop with a poor one, though I really like Dorn. A lot.)

So Nix at the AAA level makes little sense. This is, IMO, a fifth OF move. Same with Hopper.

Unfortunately, you only get one fifth OF.

perhaps signing Nix is part of a plan. one of the outfielders at AAA may be traded to fill a hole.

membengal
12-15-2008, 07:56 PM
Nix could be Milton Bradley insurance for Bradley's inevitable days off...

The Baumer
12-15-2008, 07:57 PM
Why isn't this thread stickied?

:D

Raisor
12-15-2008, 08:09 PM
Phylyp Raysor

paintmered
12-15-2008, 08:23 PM
He's a decent 5th outfielder option, I suppose. If Walt has bigger plans for him than that then the outfield is truly a lost cause.

WMR
12-15-2008, 08:26 PM
Wily Mo

no wasted letters there :D

GAC
12-15-2008, 08:55 PM
You guys are surgeons!

A player name is mentioned and the cutting begins! :lol:

Joseph
12-15-2008, 10:39 PM
Why isn't this thread stickied?

:D

I thought we only stickied important threads.

CougarQuest
12-15-2008, 10:39 PM
Laynce has had a rough time of injuries for several years, hasn't he? (Or am I remembering someone else?)

If this is the guy I remember, (I almost hate to bring this part up, for those of the anti-Dunn persuassion), doesnt' he have some power, but strikes out a lot? Like around a third of the time?

BCubb2003
12-15-2008, 10:50 PM
Welcome to Cyncynnaty, Laynce. Or Louysvylle.

OnBaseMachine
12-15-2008, 10:57 PM
Maybe he'll go all Nelson Cruz on us.

Matt700wlw
12-16-2008, 12:08 AM
In this thread, I will be known as Mahttt.

Topcat
12-16-2008, 12:57 AM
Wily Mo

no wasted letters there :D

Just Talent ;)

Blitz Dorsey
12-16-2008, 01:39 AM
I'm not sure what is more surprising. That the Reds signed Laynce Nix or that there is a 5-page thread about it. Gotta love this board. When we sign someone good (OK, if) it's hitting 20 pages by the end of the day, you can bank on it.

Depth for Louisville and nothing more, hopefully.

WVPacman
12-16-2008, 01:50 AM
:D call me crazy but I honestly can't remember who this guy is??:rolleyes:

M2
12-16-2008, 02:09 AM
Nix strikes me as being sort of Ryan Ludwickish. Obviously not everybody goes bonkers like Ludwick has the past two years, but both had a defense/power pedigree and both failed to impress the Rangers when they were 23 and 24. I don't think it's much of a leap to think Ludwick could be a useful bench player.

A very Jocketty pickup.

Blitz Dorsey
12-16-2008, 02:10 AM
:D call me crazy but I honestly can't remember who this guy is??:rolleyes:

Nah, I had to look it up and I consider myself a diehard. I knew the name, but had to look him up.

Blitz Dorsey
12-16-2008, 02:13 AM
You guys are dreaming for the stars evening mentioning the name Ryan Ludwick in comparison to Laynce Nix. But there's nothing wrong with that.

I still think Ludwick was simply the benefactor of getting whatever substance Tony LaRussa makes in the lab in his basement (it's got to be something even better than HGH) but what do I know.

Ron Madden
12-16-2008, 04:25 AM
You guys are surgeons!

A player name is mentioned and the cutting begins! :lol:


These kind of hitters have far to often found their way into the Reds lineup in recent years. I can't blame anyone here for being skiddish.

I'd love it if Laynce Nix turned into another Ryan Ludwick, I wouldn't bet on it but I would love it. :)

Ah, whats the use? He's gotta be better than Norris Hopper.

:D

BRM
12-16-2008, 10:15 AM
Maybe he'll go all Nelson Cruz on us.

He's going to tear it up in Louisville?

klw
12-16-2008, 11:11 AM
He's going to tear it up in Louisville?

No. That is called "pulling a Larson"

dfs
12-16-2008, 11:21 AM
It's Bubba Crosby all over again. Organizational depth is a reasonable goal for a GM, but if you're interested in the major league club, this doesn't concern you at all.
If this guy gets 200 at bats with the big league club, something is the matter.

sonny
12-16-2008, 12:18 PM
Sonnyy thinks the move is solid. Not solid enough to pre pay for playoff thickets though.

Spitball
12-16-2008, 12:46 PM
I'm not sure what is more surprising. That the Reds signed Laynce Nix or that there is a 5-page thread about it. Gotta love this board. When we sign someone good (OK, if) it's hitting 20 pages by the end of the day, you can bank on it.

Erik Bedard for Jay Bruce??? :eek:

Big Klu
12-16-2008, 12:55 PM
Stix Nix Hix Pix!

or...

Styx Nix Hyx Pyx!

M2
12-16-2008, 03:04 PM
You guys are dreaming for the stars evening mentioning the name Ryan Ludwick in comparison to Laynce Nix. But there's nothing wrong with that.

Who's "you guys?" Last I looked I was only one person.

For the record, I don't think anyone is a guarantee to have a flourish like Ludwick's enjoyed of late, but Nix has an extremely similar profile (skills, performance, background). He's also not that anonymous. I'd guess he's one of the better known AAA players out there, at least by general baseball fans. He was a well-regarded prospect who got a decent trial with the Rangers a few years back and he was part of that big Coco Cordero-Carlos Lee deal.

I make no representations about how Nix will pan out, but it's pretty clear what Walt Jocketty is shopping for. This move fits in with previous moves he's made (e.g. Ludwick). Expect toolsy OFs with unrealized potential or who have slumped of late to be getting a shot with the Reds. Jocketty aggressively shops that market.

Falls City Beer
12-16-2008, 03:09 PM
Who's "you guys?" Last I looked I was only one person.

For the record, I don't think anyone is a guarantee to have a flourish like Ludwick's enjoyed of late, but Nix has an extremely similar profile (skills, performance, background). He's also not that anonymous. I'd guess he's one of the better known AAA players out there, at least by general baseball fans. He was a well-regarded prospect who got a decent trial with the Rangers a few years back and he was part of that big Coco Cordero-Carlos Lee deal.

I make no representations about how Nix will pan out, but it's pretty clear what Walt Jocketty is shopping for. This move fits in with previous moves he's made (e.g. Ludwick). Expect toolsy OFs with unrealized potential or who have slumped of late to be getting a shot with the Reds. Jocketty aggressively shops that market.

I think membengal mentioned the Ludwick comparison upthread.

M2
12-16-2008, 03:13 PM
I think membengal mentioned the Ludwick comparison upthread.

I cruised through the thread and didn't see that post. My bad.

Should have known though, I find myself nodding in assent to most of membengal's posts these days.

membengal
12-16-2008, 03:17 PM
And, to be clear, I am NOT saying Nix will go all Ludwick 2008 for the Reds in 2009 either. But if one is looking for a predicate in Jocketty making this seemingly strange throwaway move, one would perhaps do well to linger on the strange tale of Ryan Ludwick, and ruminate on how he came to be a revelation for the Cardinals in 2008 (as M2 has mentioned). Because it is not something particularly usual. At all. That is why I went and dropped the link to Ludwick's minors numbers back on page one along with Nix's. And they are not that dissimilar.

So, my theory was, perhaps Jock is shopping at the blind-hope-to-catch-a-Ludwick-2008 portion of the store again with this move. Which is fine. Yaneverknow. But I certainly hope, as I am sure M2 and anyone else who has mentioned Ludwick in this thread does, that there is a Plan A that involves a real projectible bat in LF. Nix ain't that guy. But he is perhaps a wild hedge in Jock's mind.

For what it's worth.

gm
12-16-2008, 05:28 PM
Dwayne Wise just called, he wants his roster spot back

"he's dead, gym"

In Jocketty, we trust

TRF
12-16-2008, 05:59 PM
I'm standing by my prediction that Nix is the starting LF on opening day. I agree with everyone that says this is a very Walt-like move, but in all honesty, it's a very JimBo like move too.

which I find somewhat humorous.

TRF scratches head and wonders why Nix wasn't a National already...

BRM
12-16-2008, 06:04 PM
I'm standing by my prediction that Nix is the starting LF on opening day. I agree with everyone that says this is a very Walt-like move, but in all honesty, it's a very JimBo like move too.

which I find somewhat humorous.

TRF scratches head and wonders why Nix wasn't a National already...

Nix in LF, Taveras in CF? Kill me now.

I can see Nix getting time in LF sometime during the summer but I don't think he'll get the gig right out of spring training.

Tom Servo
12-16-2008, 06:19 PM
It should be noted that after the Cardinals signed Ludwick after the 06 season and he started 2007 in the minors. When he tore it up there they brought him up and he hit 14 homeruns. The next year he didn't start off playing everyday but continued to hit and eventually overtook the job by outhitting everyone.

My point is that I don't think Nix is being brought in to immediatley be starting and given the chance to fail or flourish.

M2
12-16-2008, 06:21 PM
I'm standing by my prediction that Nix is the starting LF on opening day. I agree with everyone that says this is a very Walt-like move, but in all honesty, it's a very JimBo like move too.

which I find somewhat humorous.

TRF scratches head and wonders why Nix wasn't a National already...

I'd say the difference between Jocketty's tools obsession and JimBo's is that Jocketty recognizes defense is a tool (range, but also technique), and hitting to a lesser extent. JimBo's got more of a three-toll obsession - power, speed, arm.

TRF
12-16-2008, 07:01 PM
I'd say the difference between Jocketty's tools obsession and JimBo's is that Jocketty recognizes defense is a tool (range, but also technique), and hitting to a lesser extent. JimBo's got more of a three-toll obsession - power, speed, arm.

I think it was more thee tools with the potential of being 5.

He did acquire at one point or another:
Eric Davis
Mike Cameron
Michael Tucker
Rally Time
Alex Ochoa
Jon Nunnally
Ken Griffey Jr.

These guys weren't slouches defensively. His obsession with the three you mentioned really kind of evolved over time.

M2
12-16-2008, 07:17 PM
I think it was more thee tools with the potential of being 5.

He did acquire at one point or another:
Eric Davis
Mike Cameron
Michael Tucker
Rally Time
Alex Ochoa
Jon Nunnally
Ken Griffey Jr.

These guys weren't slouches defensively. His obsession with the three you mentioned really kind of evolved over time.

True enough, until midway through the 2000 season, JimBo had done pretty well by the Reds. After that he turned into a parody of himself.

Raisor
12-16-2008, 07:19 PM
True enough, until midway through the 2000 season, JimBo had done pretty well by the Reds. After that he turned into a parody of himself.

Was that the leather pants/Tommy Lasorda season?

Highlifeman21
12-16-2008, 08:27 PM
I'm standing by my prediction that Nix is the starting LF on opening day. I agree with everyone that says this is a very Walt-like move, but in all honesty, it's a very JimBo like move too.

which I find somewhat humorous.

TRF scratches head and wonders why Nix wasn't a National already...

... b/c JimBo can only handle 25% of his 40 man roster being 5 toolers?

Ron Madden
12-17-2008, 04:12 AM
Like I said earlier in this thread. I wish Nix the very best of luck.

I'll be rooting for him as much as any other Reds Fan!

The very fact that Walt & Dusty see value in the likes of Norris Hopper, Willy Taveres and Laynce Nix makes me wonder if they can actually identify good defense or good run production. I can't help it, this worries me.

:(

lollipopcurve
05-01-2009, 10:07 AM
I'm bumping this as background on discussions of Laynce Nix.

I think in the current context we are talking about Dickerson vs. Nix. The only thing I feel I can say for sure is that Dickerson has hurt himself defensively, while Nix looks at least competent out there so far. As noted by some in this thread, Nix came with a solid defensive pedigree -- if he proves he's good out there, and he continues to produce at the plate, I'm in the camp with those saying he should continue to play.

I wouldn't mind seeing the whole year play out as a Dickerson v. Nix competition -- let one play until he goes cold, then give the other a shot, meanwhile keeping him somewhat active with occasional starts in CF/RF. Would give the organization a real good way to decide which guy they like better (whether it be as a starter, platooner or bench guy), and may develop the other into a trade chip. So far, I really like Dickerson's offensive tools better, but his contact issues appear to be problematic. Need to see more of Nix. He does seem to do a little better job hanging in tough ABs and putting the ball in play, and he has shown the ability to hit off the bench. Defense, as noted, may be the factor that pushes Nix ahead. We shall see....

flyer85
05-01-2009, 10:20 AM
anything that would get Willy T out of lineup would be a good idea.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-01-2009, 10:44 AM
I'm bumping this as background on discussions of Laynce Nix.

I think in the current context we are talking about Dickerson vs. Nix. The only thing I feel I can say for sure is that Dickerson has hurt himself defensively, while Nix looks at least competent out there so far. As noted by some in this thread, Nix came with a solid defensive pedigree -- if he proves he's good out there, and he continues to produce at the plate, I'm in the camp with those saying he should continue to play.

I wouldn't mind seeing the whole year play out as a Dickerson v. Nix competition -- let one play until he goes cold, then give the other a shot, meanwhile keeping him somewhat active with occasional starts in CF/RF. Would give the organization a real good way to decide which guy they like better (whether it be as a starter, platooner or bench guy), and may develop the other into a trade chip. So far, I really like Dickerson's offensive tools better, but his contact issues appear to be problematic. Need to see more of Nix. He does seem to do a little better job hanging in tough ABs and putting the ball in play, and he has shown the ability to hit off the bench. Defense, as noted, may be the factor that pushes Nix ahead. We shall see....

Agree. I like this idea.

SirFelixCat
05-01-2009, 02:52 PM
anything that would get Willy T out of lineup would be a good idea.


Huh?


I'm being leveled here, right?

Or are you just choosing to ignore his production for the 09 Reds?

BRM
05-01-2009, 02:54 PM
Huh?


I'm being leveled here, right?

Or are you just choosing to ignore his production for the 09 Reds?

A .689 OPS with 5 steals isn't exactly setting the world on fire. Although the .351 OBP is better than I expected and a pleasant surprise.

camisadelgolf
05-01-2009, 02:59 PM
A .689 OPS with 5 steals isn't exactly setting the world on fire. Although the .351 OBP is better than I expected and a pleasant surprise.
True, but he's the least of the Reds' problems right now. He hasn't been put in a position to knock in runners, so his slugging percentage isn't as relevant as it would be with the other hitters in the lineup. He could be slugging about .400, but it wouldn't matter much when you consider that he's hitting behind Alex Gonzalez and the pitcher.

jojo
05-01-2009, 03:07 PM
A .689 OPS with 5 steals isn't exactly setting the world on fire. Although the .351 OBP is better than I expected and a pleasant surprise.

And thank goodness for it..... for he is just a small leap away from being a poorer defending version of '08 Patterson....

SirFelixCat
05-01-2009, 03:28 PM
Color me crazy, but I'm not looking for a .900 OPS guy for leadoff. All I care about is the guy gets on base (check) and can be a menace while on base. I do not care that he's not going to knock in 80 runs (not his job) nor hit 30 HR's (again, not his role).

He has played fine defense and getting on base at a .350 clip...some of you guys simply won't face reality when it comes to having a player be productive for this team.

:shrug: The more things change around here, the more they stay the same.

I'm curious, though, for the masses that want Willy T "out of the lineup"...who would you rather be playing CF and batting lead off for the Reds that they could have gotten that would be a better player?

TRF
05-01-2009, 03:37 PM
Color me crazy, but I'm not looking for a .900 OPS guy for leadoff. All I care about is the guy gets on base (check) and can be a menace while on base. I do not care that he's not going to knock in 80 runs (not his job) nor hit 30 HR's (again, not his role).

He has played fine defense and getting on base at a .350 clip...some of you guys simply won't face reality when it comes to having a player be productive for this team.

:shrug: The more things change around here, the more they stay the same.

I'm curious, though, for the masses that want Willy T "out of the lineup"...who would you rather be playing CF and batting lead off for the Reds that they could have gotten that would be a better player?

Dickerson, but it would have meant actually committing to him and not pigeon holing him as a platoon player. Willy T has far worse splits than Dickerson does, and Dickerson was in house.

It's been rehashed to death. CF was never a need. LF was a minor need. SS was the real need.

nate
05-01-2009, 03:47 PM
Color me crazy, but I'm not looking for a .900 OPS guy for leadoff. All I care about is the guy gets on base (check) and can be a menace while on base. I do not care that he's not going to knock in 80 runs (not his job) nor hit 30 HR's (again, not his role).

He has played fine defense and getting on base at a .350 clip...some of you guys simply won't face reality when it comes to having a player be productive for this team.

Really?


:shrug: The more things change around here, the more they stay the same.

I'm curious, though, for the masses that want Willy T "out of the lineup"...who would you rather be playing CF and batting lead off for the Reds that they could have gotten that would be a better player?

One person is "masses?"

SirFelixCat
05-01-2009, 04:01 PM
Really?



Yes, really. Sure, in a perfect world, we'd have Pujols batting 1-9...but that said, I've been quite happy w/ Willy T leading off and playing CF. I guess I'm just easy to please w/ a .351 OBP.

BRM
05-01-2009, 04:05 PM
I guess I'm just easy to please w/ a .351 OBP.

As is nearly everyone else. That OBP puts him right in the middle of the pack among leadoff hitters. Like I stated earlier, a pleasant surprise.

jojo
05-01-2009, 04:10 PM
Yes, really. Sure, in a perfect world, we'd have Pujols batting 1-9...but that said, I've been quite happy w/ Willy T leading off and playing CF. I guess I'm just easy to please w/ a .351 OBP.

Would you be just as pleased if he had an OBP of .331?

SMcGavin
05-01-2009, 04:11 PM
Taveras isn't a guy accurately measured by OPS. For one, Taveras is better at the more important component of OPS (OBP) even though OBP and SLG are counted equally. He's also one of the few guys who adds much value with the running game, which obviously is missed in OPS.

Willy's RC/G is 5.0, which is decent. (League average 5.2, Reds average 4.2). He doesn't deserve any special praise for what he's done so far, but he doesn't deserve to be knocked for it either. If he continues at his current pace I'll be pretty content with him, even though the OPS looks ugly. Whether or not he can do that is a fair question, but I don't see a reason to complain about what he's done so far.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-01-2009, 04:12 PM
Would you be just as pleased if he had an OBP of .331?

One 0-4 night and that's where it is.

That's why it's too early to annoint Willy a success.

Look at his career. He is what he is.

He has done a decent job up to this point. That's it.

nate
05-01-2009, 04:12 PM
Yes, really. Sure, in a perfect world, we'd have Pujols batting 1-9...

Hyperbole.


but that said, I've been quite happy w/ Willy T leading off and playing CF. I guess I'm just easy to please w/ a .351 OBP.I guess so.

Willy's playing pretty much to the back of his baseball card. We're at the point of the season where that .351 could be .370 after a good game or .330 after a bad one. So, yes, for one month, he's gotten on base at a nice clip...for Willy. But compared to his peers roaming CF, he's middling at best.

Good for the Reds? Hey, we need everything we can get.

Just plain good? Neg.

SirFelixCat
05-01-2009, 04:54 PM
I guess my point is this:

Willy T is simply NOT a problem on this team. He has a role to fill and, up to this point, he's filled it better than just about anyone expected. Sure, there are some better options in MLB, but the point is, he's not the issue.

The black hole that has been LF & SS, on the other hand, IS the problem w/ this team. I sure would like to see Nix and Janish both get more playing time going forward. Janish, obviously, has a ton more range than AGon and his bat certainly isn't any worse at this point, if not better.

And Nix has earned more PT...


But yes, WillyT isn't the end-all-be-all of CF's. I'm just saying that he's filled his role as well as we have hoped for and waiting for the other shoe to drop, well, I guess I'm just a glass is half full kinda guy in that regards.

He's not the issue on this team.

M2
05-01-2009, 05:07 PM
Willy T is simply NOT a problem on this team.

Problem #1 with the Reds is probably anemic offense. So, I suppose you could argue that only the most anemic hitter in the lineup is the problem, though I'd counter that all anemic hitters contribute to the problem.

As others have mentioned, if Taveras keeps doing exactly what he's doing at the moment (and no less), then there will be other fish to fry. Yet if the club needs to add bats, then the OF tends to be the place to find them. Judy hitting OFs don't get to enjoy job security.

TRF
05-01-2009, 05:20 PM
As others have mentioned, if Taveras keeps doing exactly what he's doing at the moment (and no less), then there will be other fish to fry. Yet if the club needs to add bats, then the OF tends to be the place to find them. Judy hitting OFs don't get to enjoy job security.

Problem ias, as pointed out, the sample is too small. over the last 7 days he's posted this line: .231 .276 .308 .584, Which indicates his .351 OBP is largely a product of two weeks. The day before yesterday, he had a .329 OBP.

He's more likely to have that .329 at seasons end than the .351 he's sporting at the moment.

CF was never a team need, and if it were, Taveras was never the answer to any CF need.

bucksfan2
05-01-2009, 05:29 PM
Problem ias, as pointed out, the sample is too small. over the last 7 days he's posted this line: .231 .276 .308 .584, Which indicates his .351 OBP is largely a product of two weeks. The day before yesterday, he had a .329 OBP.

He's more likely to have that .329 at seasons end than the .351 he's sporting at the moment.

CF was never a team need, and if it were, Taveras was never the answer to any CF need.

You can pick out weeks that a player is hot too. When you just look at a weeks sample size you will see some wild fluctuations. Its just the nature of baseball.

CF wasn't a need? Dickerson has shown he is an adventure in LF how good would he have been in CF. If Dickerson couldn't play CF then who would?

jojo
05-01-2009, 05:33 PM
You can pick out weeks that a player is hot too. When you just look at a weeks sample size you will see some wild fluctuations. Its just the nature of baseball.

CF wasn't a need? Dickerson has shown he is an adventure in LF how good would he have been in CF. If Dickerson couldn't play CF then who would?

We shouldn't confuse filling the need to have an actual player in center with filling the need to actually have a good player in center. :cool:

TRF
05-01-2009, 05:56 PM
You can pick out weeks that a player is hot too. When you just look at a weeks sample size you will see some wild fluctuations. Its just the nature of baseball.

CF wasn't a need? Dickerson has shown he is an adventure in LF how good would he have been in CF. If Dickerson couldn't play CF then who would?

I don't need to pick weeks out. Taveras entire career is one big mess. Dickerson had a rough time in LF in Chicago. in his what... 45th major league game?

Bruce had 9 errors in his 1st 100 games. Dickerson has 3 in his first 50.

really not worried about Chris Dickerson in the field.

lollipopcurve
05-01-2009, 05:59 PM
Taveras is a moot point here, if we're dealing in the realities of the Reds roster in 2009.

I really think the question of Nix's PT comes down to how high Baker/Jocketty are on Dickerson. Will be interesting to see how that plays out.

nate
05-01-2009, 06:16 PM
I guess my point is this:

Willy T is simply NOT a problem on this team. He has a role to fill and, up to this point, he's filled it better than just about anyone expected.


But yes, WillyT isn't the end-all-be-all of CF's. I'm just saying that he's filled his role as well as we have hoped for and waiting for the other shoe to drop, well, I guess I'm just a glass is half full kinda guy in that regards.So, which is it? He's better than expected? If that's the case, you had pretty low expectations.

Or, he's filled his role as you hoped. In which case, you didn't hope for much.

For me, he's playing exactly as I expected him to.

SirFelixCat
05-01-2009, 07:22 PM
So, which is it? He's better than expected? If that's the case, you had pretty low expectations.

Or, he's filled his role as you hoped. In which case, you didn't hope for much.

For me, he's playing exactly as I expected him to.

He's playing better than most everyone here expected. Just about everyone expected him to suck beyond suck...and he hasn't. :shrug:

nate
05-01-2009, 07:41 PM
He's playing better than most everyone here expected.

Just about everyone expected him to suck beyond suck...and he hasn't. :shrug:

Hyperbole. "Everyone" didn't expect him to "suck beyond suck." Quite honestly, I wouldn't even presume to try and pin a single opinion on "everyone" because it invariably ends up being wrong.

I will say that Willy is playing how I expected him to. That is, he's playing to the back of his baseball card. Nothing more, nothing less.

I mean, if you're impressed with what he's done so far, you had much lower expectations than any of the phantom "everyone" members.

SirFelixCat
05-01-2009, 07:43 PM
I guess that whole "just about" part is filtered out for ya, eh?

Maybe we should bump the Willy T thread when he was signed and look at the overwhelming majority in there and see what they thought?

Whatever though, I'm not going to get into a pissing contest about my vernacular. Congrats on Willy T meeting your expectations!

_Sir_Charles_
05-01-2009, 07:46 PM
I guess that whole "just about" part is filtered out for ya, eh?

Maybe we should bump the Willy T thread when he was signed and look at the overwhelming majority in there and see what they thought?

Whatever though, I'm not going to get into a pissing contest about my vernacular. Congrats on Willy T meeting your expectations!


Ummm...let's not. That thread was pretty brutal to me personally. I'd rather that thread disappear into the abyss. (I was, however, one of his few "supporters")

RED VAN HOT
05-01-2009, 07:56 PM
Regarding leadoff hitter effectiveness, I did a quick comparison of the Cards, Cubs, and Reds. The Cards have scored more runs than any other NL team; the Cubs have the leadoff hitter who has scored the most runs.

A leadoff hitter's run production depends on the production of the middle of the lineuip to a great extent. All the leadoff hitter can do is to get on base and put himself in a position to score through good baserunning. He can do both of these things but fail to score many runs if the middle of the lineup does not hit well.

One way to look at a leadoff hitter's effectiveness is to compute the percentage of a team's runs scored by the leadoff hitter. We would certainly expect that number to be north of 12.5%.

Leadoff hitters for the Cardinals have scored only 10.5% of the team's runs. I think we know source of their runs. Soriano, the league's top run scorer has scored 22.8% of the Cubs runs in games in which he has batted leadoff. I note, however, that 7 of those runs were from his HR's. Nice work if you can get it, but unusual in a leadoff hitter. Taking away his HR's from his and the team's total leaves him with 16.5% of the total when he is simply a baserunner.

Taveras has hit leadoff in all but three of the Reds games. During that time he has scored 19.1% of the Reds runs. In the other three games only one of the 10 runs were scored by Hairston (2 games) and Dickerson (all three losses).

My point is that Taveras appears to be doing his part in light of all the middle of the order RH bats below the Mendoza line.

Ron Madden
05-02-2009, 05:13 AM
I guess that whole "just about" part is filtered out for ya, eh?

Maybe we should bump the Willy T thread when he was signed and look at the overwhelming majority in there and see what they thought?



Maybe we should wait untill the 2009 season is in the books before we bump that thread.

I was against signing Taveras and still wish it would've never happend.

So far Taveras has been getting on base at a good rate. Will he keep it up?

I hope so, but I doubt it.

mth123
05-02-2009, 06:36 AM
I guess that whole "just about" part is filtered out for ya, eh?

Maybe we should bump the Willy T thread when he was signed and look at the overwhelming majority in there and see what they thought?

Whatever though, I'm not going to get into a pissing contest about my vernacular. Congrats on Willy T meeting your expectations!


I don't need to bump the thread. I thought it was a horrible signing. His OPS says I was right. This team needed a middle of the order bat for LF and could have gotten by in CF with Dickerson and a scrap heep RH to platoon with him for the minimum (maybe just keep Freel or go with a guy like McDonald). The production would be the same as or better than what the Reds are getting/going to get from Willy T. His OBP is OK for now. His defense is OK (not great, not awful but OK), His lack of extra base hits is troubling and will eventually lead to a lower OBP as the season goes on and things even out a bit. The biggest problem is it now gives the Reds two mediocre .700ish CF in the line-up at the same time (one in LF and Willy in CF) when it could have done fine with the one they had in CF and adding a bigger bat for LF. If no big bat was available, then scrap heep guys like Nix, Gomes, Bankston or somebody else who adds a power threat would have been a better plan.

The best thing I can say about the Taveras deal was that it could be a lot worse than its been (and it will be for long stretches in 2009 IMO), but that doesn't mean he's really been an asset out there.