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View Full Version : Furcal to the Braves & Its Consequences



TheBigLebowski
12-16-2008, 09:09 AM
Rosenthal is reporting that Furcal has spurned the A's in favor of returning to Atlanta, in a bit of a surprise. This, obviously, now makes Yunel Escobar expendable (at least, it would certainly appear to).

Many around here have been bandying about Arroyo for Escobar trades and, some in the ORG appear to think that Arroyo would only be a good starting place in negotiations for him. I disagree. I think that Arroyo is a good 3rd starter and a great 4th starter for almost any team in baseball and, he is is one of the best values out there considering his current contract. Escobar would be a significant upgrade for us at short but I do not see him as the greater commodity -- I view the two as essentially equals and I see the trade as one that could help both teams. Furthermore, if one is to believe pre-deadline trade rumors, the Braves have expressed interest in Arroyo before.

So, we'll see if Walt tries to make this happen. If he does, I will also be very interested to see if my opinion of the value of these two players is in-line with the market.

Slyder
12-16-2008, 10:17 AM
If It is true (Furcal back to Atl) then start sizing Peavy up for the Braves Uni, The Padres wanted Escobar the Braves balked not having a backup plan... enter Furcal problem solved. I doubt as long as Peavy's on the table the Braves are going to even bother kicking the tires for Bronson if the price is Escobar.

redsfandan
12-16-2008, 11:13 AM
maybe but...

Braves still not ready to revive Peavy pursuit

In their continued attempt to deal Peavy, the Padres may at least attempt to rekindle Atlanta's interest. But the Braves are still sour about the six-week negotiations they had with the Padres earlier this offseason. The two parties haven't talked about Peavy since Nov. 13.
Before committing even more time and resources, the Braves will first want a guarantee that Peavy is willing to waive his full no-trade clause to come to Atlanta. Up until this point, every indication was that his primary desire was to eventually land with the Cubs.


Furcal acquisition could trigger trade for pitcher By DAVID O'BRIEN
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution Tuesday, December 16, 2008

The Braves appear to be on the verge of bringing back shortstop Rafael Furcal, a move that could be the precursor to a trade for a starting pitcher.

If the Braves land Furcal, 31, it could possibly signal an imminent trade of shortstop Yunel Escobar or second baseman Kelly Johnson in a deal for an elite-level starting pitcher the Braves have spent so much time this offseason attempting to acquire.

When the Braves seemed close to trading for 2007 Cy Young Award winner Jake Peavy of San Diego in Nocember, Escobar was the key piece of a package of young players the Braves were going to send to the Padres in the deal.

Negotiations stalled and the Braves announced after six weeks of trying that they were pulling out of those trade talks and moving on to other pitching targets.

The Braves might try to revive trade talks with the Padres for Peavy, but it’s also possible they have a deal in place with another club for a pitcher. They talked last week with the Kansas City Royals about a deal for hard-throwing young starter Zack Greinke, who is two years from free agency.

The Braves also have discussed possible deals with other teams including the Pittsburgh Pirates, who have several young sought-after pitchers including left-hander Paul Maholm, a Mississippi native who was 9-9 with a 3.71 ERA in 206-1/3 innings in 2008.

dunner13
12-16-2008, 11:53 AM
Just throwing this out there , not really sure im for it but what about a package of players for harang. I guess the case for it would be with volszquez and cueto and our other young pitching in the minors we could afford to trade a starter and harang could bring back alot more then arroyo.

Slyder
12-16-2008, 12:18 PM
Just throwing this out there , not really sure im for it but what about a package of players for harang. I guess the case for it would be with volszquez and cueto and our other young pitching in the minors we could afford to trade a starter and harang could bring back alot more then arroyo.


Before Last year yes he would. I don't know how true that would be this exact moment. Arroyo had a solid 2nd half and Harang was one big ?. Teams would try and buy low on Harang with the risk being he's lost "it", if he returns to form then they gave up minimal and got a solid #2 maybe an ace signed reasonably for the next couple years.

Plus every indication is this FO still believes we turn a corner THIS year. You can't do that trading Harang. Keep Harang and give him a chance to show he's back and you'll probably get more in return rather than trading him now.

WildcatFan
12-16-2008, 12:23 PM
Same thing with Arroyo. That fifth spot in the rotation is enough of a question mark that adding another hole would just be a setback, even if you sign a Mark Mulder or insert Micah Owings in there. The Reds finally have a Major League rotation; lets sit back and enjoy it for a while.

mound_patrol
12-16-2008, 12:47 PM
I'm all for getting Yunel. I'd try to get Johnson as well. I'd start the package with Phillips and see what else it would take.

Getting Yunel and Johnson while trading away Phillips would nuetralize Dusty and his terrible lineups.

Ghosts of 1990
12-16-2008, 01:01 PM
Out of left field here, but am I the only one who believes that the best of Harang has came and went?

Emin3mShady07
12-16-2008, 01:24 PM
I'm all for getting Yunel. I'd try to get Johnson as well. I'd start the package with Phillips and see what else it would take.

Getting Yunel and Johnson while trading away Phillips would nuetralize Dusty and his terrible lineups.

Still, to get both you would most likely have to include Arroyo or another starter. Escobar would be a huge upgrade for this club especially defensively which this team really needs. Maybe see if the Braves will take Bailey as opposed to Arroyo. It appears the Braves want a starter who would contibute significantly but maybe Bailey could pry escobar away from them. Then the reds could sign a big bat like Burrell or Bradley, or even Joe crede and move EE to left, and that would certainly make the reds into a very good team. A contender? maybe. Over .500? I would think so.

mound_patrol
12-16-2008, 01:28 PM
Well a report says they aren't interested in dealing either player. So that means we'd have to floor them to get anything done. A deal would also depend on if they believe Furcal could be a SS for them. If not, then no chance they deal Yunel.

WildcatFan
12-16-2008, 02:10 PM
Out of left field here, but am I the only one who believes that the best of Harang has came and went?

I'm going with 'yes' on this one. You are.

redsfandan
12-16-2008, 04:41 PM
Personally I'd deal Arroyo before Harang but I understand your point dunner13. Harang can still be a #1 or #2 while Arroyo is more of a #3/#4 so in theory Harang should bring more in a trade. But, like Slyder pointed out, any team would probably try to acquire Harang at a discount. While there are a few like JayBruce32 that think Harangs best is past I'm not one of them. And I think it's a little soon to say good bye to Harang, or even Arroyo, just yet. We have a nice rotation for once and a move like that would create a big hole. I think it's always better to replace a pitcher with an internal prospect and the prospects haven't shown quite yet that someone like Harang could be considered expendable. You could replace Harang with a FA but I'm not sure there's one available that:

1) wouldn't be more of an injury risk
2) wouldn't cost more financially
3) wouldn't cost a draft pick
4) could match Harangs production or come close and
5) would want to come here

We could dangle Bailey but his stock has fallen and I don't think he's the kind of pitcher they'd be interested in anyway. They may revist talks with San Diego but since they've tried that for six weeks already they may prefer to inquire about Greinke and that makes ALOT more sense imo.

I would've thought Furcal would receive more than 3 years/$30 million (with an option) but it seems like he wanted to be picky about where he played which probably compromised his ability to land a big paycheck.

RED VAN HOT
12-16-2008, 05:11 PM
I had heard on XM that the Braves planned to move Furcal to 2B and Johnson to outfield. IMO, that would make a lot of sense for the Braves. Furcal at SS is a risk. It is not yet clear how age and injury in combination will reduce his range. They can still go after Lowe for their pitching needs. Presumably, he will be cheaper than the money they were willing to give Burnett. Those moves altogether, would provide a significant improvement. Trading Yunel for a pitcher would be cheaper, but it would create a risk at SS.

redsfandan
12-16-2008, 06:40 PM
That's an option but I'd chalk that up as just talk for now. A lot can still happen and Johnsons offense would probably be below average in leftfield. If Furcals age/injury affected him at short it would likely affect him at 2nd too. It could happen that way but I bet they make a trade.

BLEEDS
12-16-2008, 08:07 PM
I agree with Wildcat. We've made tons of trades and acquisitions to FINALLY have a solid rotation - at least 1-4. Why we would consider trading any of them for a Position player is beyond me.

I would consider trading one of them for an UPGRADE - say to a Peavy - but not for a position player.

Right now we have a solid nucleus - 1-4 in the rotation, actual REAL pitchers to compete for the #5, a solid pen, and 3-4 young guys on the ML roster (Votto, Bruce, BP, EE) who we could use for the WINDOW of opportunity that ends with the contracts of Harang, Arroyo, and Cordero. That's about the time we'd have to start paying Votto/Bruce/EE big money and REALLY start to question the ROI on BP.

Until then, I don't mess with the pitching, I focus on that gaping offensive hole left by Dunn in LF, and if that is done to the tune of a .900 OPS then we can live with some FLIERS on Rivera/Baldelli/Wiggington to see if we can upgrade overall winshares by some platoons and/or switching of folks from 3B/1B to the OF, and some better options off the bench.

Trade Arroyo? And replace him with what - pencil in Homer to replicate his numbers?!?! FUGGEDABBOUDDIT!!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

RED VAN HOT
12-16-2008, 09:46 PM
The ramifications for the A's are interesting as well. Billy Beane is too smart not to have had a plan in mind when he traded for Holliday and a one year rental. I'm guessing he thought he might be able to put together a playoff team 2009. Furcal was part of that. What will he do now? Go after another SS? trade Holliday?

Emin3mShady07
12-16-2008, 11:31 PM
The ramifications for the A's are interesting as well. Billy Beane is too smart not to have had a plan in mind when he traded for Holliday and a one year rental. I'm guessing he thought he might be able to put together a playoff team 2009. Furcal was part of that. What will he do now? Go after another SS? trade Holliday?

I can see the A's targeting Orlando Cabrera now. They might be more reluctant to sign him because he is a type A free Agent but I don't think the A's really have many trade pieces to acquire a top notch SS through a trade unless they target someone like Jason Bartlett. Beane has most likely turned his focus to defense, or at least that is my opinion, because the team he was looking to assemble had Plus fielders at all 4 infield positions and LF (Holiday in Left and Furcal at SS), plus Carlos Gomez was not exactly the best CFer defensively, he was traded, and most likely the A's are looking for more good hitters that can play defense AKA not Jack Cust. Holiday allows Cust to move to DH and the search for players that can field continues. Cabrera or Bartlett would provide a defensive upgrade over Bobby Crosby and could OPS a decen number with an average OBP.

redsfandan
12-17-2008, 06:20 PM
Furcal Chooses Dodgers
By Tim Dierkes [December 17 at 4:10pm CST]
4:10pm: Ken Rosenthal says Furcal decided to sign with the Dodgers.

11:48am: Yahoo's Tim Brown: Furcal is "nearing an agreement with the Dodgers." Joel Sherman learned from Kinzer that the Dodgers are in the lead, having matched the Braves' three-year, $30MM (plus a fourth-year vesting option) offer. Paul Kinzer told Sherman the idea of switching to second base for the Braves gave Furcal pause.

Kinzer told Danny Knobler there was never a verbal agreement with the Braves. Kinzer lives in Atlanta and received 50 phone calls from fans after the story broke yesterday.

9:39am: Yesterday we watched as Rafael Furcal and his agents seemingly ignored a gentleman's agreement with the Braves to continue negotiating with the Dodgers. Dylan Hernandez of the L.A. Times learned from Ned Colletti that the Dodgers improved their offer to Furcal (the original was two years with a vesting option).

According to Buster Olney, the Braves offered three years, $30MM with a vesting option for the fourth year. Olney says the A's were at $38MM guaranteed over four years.