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Benihana
12-17-2008, 07:08 PM
the soap opera continues.

per Rosenthal... http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8954110/Sources:-Furcal-picks-Dodgers-over-Braves

Does this mean that Chin-Lung Hu should be the newest Red? Discuss.

Benihana
12-17-2008, 07:10 PM
I'll start: Brandon Phillips and Homer Bailey for Matt Kemp and Chin Hu.

Why or why not?

Johnny Footstool
12-17-2008, 07:14 PM
I'll start: Brandon Phillips and Homer Bailey for Matt Kemp and Chin Hu.

Why or why not?

I doubt the Dodgers would go for that. They'll probably sign Orlando Hudson, and keep Kemp and Hu.

Benihana
12-17-2008, 07:16 PM
I doubt the Dodgers would go for that. They'll probably sign Orlando Hudson, and keep Kemp and Hu.

You're probably right, except for the last part. Why would the Dodgers keep Hu (assuming they re-sign Furcal)? I would think he's a prime candidate for a trade.

Matt700wlw
12-17-2008, 07:18 PM
Tomorrow, he'll be deciding between the Dodgers and the A's

flyer85
12-17-2008, 07:29 PM
I wonder if the Braves feel like a cheap *****

RedsManRick
12-17-2008, 07:31 PM
I'm still not convinced that Hu represents more than a minor upgrade over Paul Janish - who is clearly not a major league starter.

Hu's shown a bit more power, but less plate discipline than Janish. Neither guy has hit in limited opportunity in the majors. While Hu likely does have more power than Janish (not saying much), some of that power he's shown has been a function of his park. I understand his defense alone makes him worthy of a spot on a 25 man roster, but particularly given Furcal's back issues, having a capable backup on hand would seem to be a priority for LA.

I'd be happy to have him in the organization, but with both Keppinger and Gonzalez on the roster, I'm not sure where he'd fit. He only makes sense if one of those guys is moved. And it would mean Janish's time with a spot in the organization is tied with the rate of Valaika's progression.

red-in-la
12-17-2008, 08:02 PM
I'm still not convinced that Hu represents more than a minor upgrade over Paul Janish - who is clearly not a major league starter.

Hu's shown a bit more power, but less plate discipline than Janish. Neither guy has hit in limited opportunity in the majors. While Hu likely does have more power than Janish (not saying much), some of that power he's shown has been a function of his park. I understand his defense alone makes him worthy of a spot on a 25 man roster, but particularly given Furcal's back issues, having a capable backup on hand would seem to be a priority for LA.

I'd be happy to have him in the organization, but with both Keppinger and Gonzalez on the roster, I'm not sure where he'd fit. He only makes sense if one of those guys is moved. And it would mean Janish's time with a spot in the organization is tied with the rate of Valaika's progression.

IMHO, Hu is the second coming of Juan Castro. The kid looks like he couldn't hit a line drive to the pitcher.

redsfan4445
12-17-2008, 08:55 PM
im sure the Braves will never deal with the Agent of his again.. what the heck! say your going to take the Braves offer to use them to get the dodgers to change their offer?? i would have told Furcal, "Sorry the offer is gone" before he even decided to stay with the dodgers

*BaseClogger*
12-17-2008, 08:56 PM
I'm still not convinced that Hu represents more than a minor upgrade over Paul Janish - who is clearly not a major league starter.

Hu's shown a bit more power, but less plate discipline than Janish. Neither guy has hit in limited opportunity in the majors. While Hu likely does have more power than Janish (not saying much), some of that power he's shown has been a function of his park. I understand his defense alone makes him worthy of a spot on a 25 man roster, but particularly given Furcal's back issues, having a capable backup on hand would seem to be a priority for LA.

I'd be happy to have him in the organization, but with both Keppinger and Gonzalez on the roster, I'm not sure where he'd fit. He only makes sense if one of those guys is moved. And it would mean Janish's time with a spot in the organization is tied with the rate of Valaika's progression.

The 2009 Marcel projections tend to agree with you. FWIW, I'm with you; I'd rather just play Janish than give up parts for Hu if we decide to go all glove, no stick at shortstop. Here's the projections:

Paul Janish(.27): .248/.321/.385/.706/.312

Chin-Lung Hu(.39): .243/.313/.385/.698/.303

mth123
12-18-2008, 05:04 AM
The 2009 Marcel projections tend to agree with you. FWIW, I'm with you; I'd rather just play Janish than give up parts for Hu if we decide to go all glove, no stick at shortstop. Here's the projections:

Paul Janish(.27): .248/.321/.385/.706/.312

Chin-Lung Hu(.39): .243/.313/.385/.698/.303

If Paul Janish can OPS .706, then there is no reason not to just start him and play him every day while hitting 8th and finally solidify what has been a leaky infield for nearly a decade. Unfortunately, I think he'll OPS closer to .500 than .700. I'm guessing something in the .575 range.

Mario-Rijo
12-18-2008, 05:32 AM
I'll tell ya what Janish might not be all that talented offensively but he certainly maximizes his ability with a great approach. Whenever a guy comes to the plate in MLB the question we all ask ourselves (and what the hitters themselves should also) is what should their approach be for that specific PA. And then try to implement that attack all while keeping in mind that the main goal is to avoid getting out in the process. Janish does a good job of recognizing the situation and knowing how to attack the PA properly. He knows his limitations and does everything he can to make the best of his opportunities.

For example if he knows he needs to bunt a runner over he just doesn't go up there looking to sacrifice bunt, he goes up there with the intent on working the pitcher if he doesn't throw an ideal pitch right off, he may attempt to work a walk if the circumstances lend itself to that, he may find the situation suitable to attempt a bunt for a hit, all without losing sight of the main objective. He just doesn't give PA's away, despite the fact that his talent doesn't allow him to be more productive. He basically takes advantage of every possible advantage he can gain. He seems like a guy who with some time and some work on his power & maybe technique could develop into a passable starting SS someday. I personally wouldn't be so quick to dump him unless something obviously better comes along and even then he could make for a very good backup SS.

Raisor
12-18-2008, 08:30 AM
The AJC is reporting that the Braves are going to try to move Kelly Johnson for an Outfielder.

It would take some three way action, but I'd go after Johnson and try to move BP. I don't think BP's value will ever be any better.

RANDY IN INDY
12-18-2008, 09:21 AM
You want Kelly Johnson for Brandon Phillips?

Raisor
12-18-2008, 09:31 AM
You want Kelly Johnson for Brandon Phillips?

No, I want to trade BP somewhere for something.

I'd like the Reds to wind up with KJ in the end along with whatever else we can get for BP from where ever.

flyer85
12-18-2008, 09:44 AM
I am always highly suspect of players defensive ability as they come through the minors. It usually just means they can't hit. Rey Olmedo was supposedly a defensive whiz(the next Dave Concepcion), he couldn't catch a cold.

Other than his arm I saw nothing about Janish that made me believe he is going to special defensively. He certainly is not overly quick or fast.

However, I don't have a problem if they want to let Janish play SS in 2009 to see what he can be.

RANDY IN INDY
12-18-2008, 09:48 AM
No, I want to trade BP somewhere for something.

I'd like the Reds to wind up with KJ in the end along with whatever else we can get for BP from where ever.

For me, that would be really dependent on who that "something" is.

RedLegSuperStar
12-18-2008, 09:48 AM
How bad must Oakland and Atlanta feel after the stunts Furcal and his agent pulled on them?

Always Red
12-18-2008, 09:55 AM
the soap opera continues.

per Rosenthal... http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8954110/Sources:-Furcal-picks-Dodgers-over-Braves



Yes, the apparent lack of ethics in this matter are very disturbing, to me. I know I'm a bitter old man, but an agreement should be an agreement, a man's word is his word...and for the Dodgers to continue to negotiate after they allegedly saw the signed term sheet is also unacceptable- I'm sure the Braves will not be dealing with the Dodgers at any point in the near future.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/12/rafael-furcal-4.html


5:53pm: Rosenthal has updated his post with a bit more info and a timeline from Wren. Around midnight on Monday, after much negotiating, Kinzer told Wren, "we're good." Tuesday morning, says Rosenthal (note the slight discrepancy from Brown's report below), Wren "got a voicemail from Kinzer" asking for the term sheet to be put together and faxed to him, which Wren did. "Shortly thereafter, Kinzer began 'backpedaling,' saying he promised the Dodgers he would talk to them." And on Tuesday, the Dodgers "suddenly" appeared willing to grant Furcal a third year -- and today, the Braves were told that Furcal would not be joining them.


5:43pm: Tim Brown reports that the Braves had sent Furcal a signed term sheet, according to "a club source." Monday night, Kinzer asked for the paperwork to be faxed to him. Braves GM Frank Wren complied Tuesday morning. Writes Brown:

No member of the Braves’ front office – not Wren, not longtime former GM John Schuerholz – could recall a time when a signed term sheet was not the equivalent of a handshake agreement, ethically – if not legally – binding.

Brown adds that the Braves believe Kinzer shopped the term sheet to the Dodgers, who had been reluctant to commit to a third year.

redsmetz
12-18-2008, 10:05 AM
Yes, the apparent lack of ethics in this matter are very disturbing, to me. I know I'm a bitter old man, but an agreement should be an agreement, a man's word is his word...and for the Dodgers to continue to negotiate after they allegedly saw the signed term sheet is also unacceptable- I'm sure the Braves will not be dealing with the Dodgers at any point in the near future.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/12/rafael-furcal-4.html

It would be interesting to see what the legal framework of the "term sheet" within the ML agreements for operation, etc. Could be a very interesting case.

flyer85
12-18-2008, 10:16 AM
It's the agent and the player who were unethical ... but in this age anything goes. I would think the Braves will never deal with Kinzer again.

Raisor
12-18-2008, 10:16 AM
For me, that would be really dependent on who that "something" is.

Well of course.

I'm not in favor of giving BP away by any means.

RANDY IN INDY
12-18-2008, 10:20 AM
And that is the tough part of making trades.

Always Red
12-18-2008, 10:26 AM
It's the agent and the player who were unethical ... but in this age anything goes. I would think the Braves will never deal with Kinzer again.

If the Dodgers were in the know, saw the signed sheet and proceeded to negotiate, against all previous norms of baseball negotiating ethics, then shame on them, too.

I have no idea what is considered unethical behavior during negotiations like these, but apparently the Braves are disgusted by what happened.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081217&content_id=3720143&vkey=hotstove2008&fext=.jsp


"In this business, you have to have confidence in the people you're dealing with," Wren said. "The worst thing that can happen to you is to lose the confidence of the people that you have to deal with."


"There's no recourse," Wren said. "You learn who you can do business with and who you can't."

Chip R
12-18-2008, 11:06 AM
Unethical behavior involving a GM and an agent and Scott Boras' and JimBo's names weren't mentioned?

RANDY IN INDY
12-18-2008, 11:30 AM
If this were somehow slanted the other way, can you imagine what the players association and Donald Fehr would be saying?

remdog
12-18-2008, 02:58 PM
If this were somehow slanted the other way, can you imagine what the players association and Donald Fehr would be saying?


My thoughts exactly. What if Kinzer thouht he had a deal with the Braves and broke off talks with the Dodgers only to find that the Braves changed their mind and the Dodgers had signed someone else leaving Furcal in a bind.

Donny-boy would be yelling lawsuit, collusion and wanting blood in the streets.

Rem

REDREAD
12-18-2008, 03:17 PM
Clearly what Furcal and his agent did was wrong. I'm not excusing it.

However, since some agents have been caught lying about what other clubs have offered their clients, I wonder if LA insisted on seeing Atlanta's offer in writing before sweatening the pot. IIRC, Boras lied to LA when negotiating Brown's contract by claiming another team (I think the Cards) had offered more years and $$ than they actually did.

Again, not excusing this behavior, but I wonder if LA wanted proof of Atl's offer.

Always Red
12-18-2008, 07:11 PM
Livid Schuerholz: Furcal dealings ‘despicable’

Braves’ president says team will never do business with player agency again

http://www.ajc.com/braves/content/sports/braves/stories/2008/12/18/atlanta_braves_john_schuerholz.html


Schuerholz said he phoned Tellem Wednesday night.

“I expressed my great disappointment to him,” he said. “I watched as Frank shared with me the circumstances of his negotiations with Furcal — negotiations to the point where we increased our offer and he [Kinzer] then asked for a signed term sheet to be sent over. We never got that signed term sheet faxed back to us and we later found out why — because they took that offer and shopped it.”

When asked about Tellem’s reaction, Schuerholz said: “He was surprised. He tried to explain himself. He said he had nothing to do with it — it was the work of Paul Kinzer. I reminded him that [Kinzer] works for him and he has to stand behind the people who work for him. I told him I was making this official, and I was going to make it public.”

John Schuerholz is perhaps the most respected GM (ok, recently retired GM) in the game today. Look for Kinzer's head to roll as Tellem and the Wasserman group starts to backtrack and spin this to make it smell better.

15fan
12-18-2008, 11:12 PM
There was a reason the Braves let Furcal go to LA in the first place several years ago.

They knew what they were getting into when they decided to pursue him this off-season.

Once a dog, always a dog.

I, for one, will shed no tear for the Braves.

Chip R
12-19-2008, 11:51 AM
Boy, I wonder what would happen if the Reds were on one end of this situation.

Always Red
12-19-2008, 03:15 PM
In the spirit of fairness, here is the response today from Arn Tellem:

http://www.fannation.com/si_blogs/hot_stove/posts/33941-furcals-agent-refutes-braves-claims



Furcal's agent refutes Braves' claims



Jon Heyman


Longtime baseball agent Arn Tellem, who heads the baseball agents at the Wasserman Media Group, responded by e-mail to Atlanta Braves general manager Frank Wren's comments to SI.com regarding the Braves' distrust of that agency and intention never to do business with them again. Wren and the Braves believe the agency reneged on shortstop Rafael Furcal's agreement to play for the Braves, and Tellem responded by saying "there was never an agreement" in his seven-point e-mail, and ending by saying that they would continue to try to work with the Braves and suggesting it's the Braves' obligation to consider their clients.

Tellem may also have read the comments of Braves president John Schuerholz, one of the best GMs in the past few decades, who told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution that the agency's actions were "disgusting, "despicable," and "unprofessional," in forming his lengthy response.

Here is Tellem's complete response:

"With regard to the negotiations between the Atlanta Braves and Rafael Furcal, the essential facts are clear and cannot be disputed.

1. "There was never an agreement reached between Rafael Furcal and the Atlanta Braves.

2. "In fact, the Braves were fully aware that Furcal was not prepared to make a decision but had requested an opportunity to sleep on it, before deciding.

3. "Moreover, the baseball rules which all agents and teams operate under are clear that no deal exists between a player and a team unless and until: (i) there is a signed and executed player agreement or; (ii) the Player's Union and the Commissioner's office have otherwise confirmed the deal. Neither occurred here.

4. "Furcal ultimately decided to accept the Dodgers' offer, taking into consideration a number of factors, the most important of which was his desire to continue playing shortstop and not make the position change to second base that the Braves were requiring.

5. "Losing out on an All-Star player like Furcal is always disappointing, and we understand the Braves' frustration with the outcome of this negotiation, but it does not change in any way the fact that we conducted ourselves with integrity and complied with all rules of major league baseball throughout this process.

6. "Our primary obligation is to serve our clients best interests, and we will continue to do so in accordance with all relevant rules governing MLB negotiations and the utmost integrity.

7. "If it serves our clients, we will continue to present opportunities to the Braves, which in accordance with the rules governing Major League Baseball, the Braves must entertain. We hope that once emotions have subsided, the Braves will act in a manner consistent with not only their obligations under the Collective Bargaining Agreement and The National Labor Relations Act, but also the best interests of the franchise. In short, we would not want this incident to color their better judgment."


Sounds like Tellem has decided that the signed term sheet which Wren and Schuerholz referred to, really does not mean that a deal has been done, is spite of the fact that it has been the usual custom in baseball.

Spin, baby, spin.

Cedric
12-19-2008, 04:49 PM
Who has the most respect from everyone in all of baseball right now? I would venture to say that NOBODY has more respect than John Schuerholz.

Bad, bad move by Arn Tellem, IMO.

RANDY IN INDY
12-19-2008, 04:58 PM
The cat is done in the litter box, and the covering begins. Adds to my disgust with agents and the all powerful players union, in general.

Highlifeman21
12-20-2008, 10:03 AM
This boring off-season needed this soap opera.

I love it.

WebScorpion
12-22-2008, 10:03 AM
The cat is done in the litter box, and the covering begins. Adds to my disgust with agents and the all powerful players union, in general.
I think that cat got some in his food dish. :eek: