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View Full Version : Brandon Phillips-When to move?



Raisor
12-18-2008, 12:27 PM
When do you try to trade BP?

First, let's take a look at his contract:


4 years/$27M (2008-11), plus 2012 club option

re-signed by Cincinnati 2/15/08 (avoided arbitration, $4.2M-$2.7M)
$0.75M signing bonus
08:$2.75M, 09:$4.75M, 10:$6.75M, 11:$11M, 12:$12M club option ($1M buyout)
escalators based on awards may bring total package to $43.25M (2008 Gold Glove increases 2009 salary by $0.25M to $5M)

if traded, 2012 club option becomes mutual option




Starting in 2011, BP gets really expensive. When do you try to move him? After 2009? Now?

WMR
12-18-2008, 12:32 PM
This off-season would be my druthers. Sell that Gold Glove for all it's worth.

Always Red
12-18-2008, 12:36 PM
When do you try to trade BP?

First, let's take a look at his contract:






Starting in 2011, BP gets really expensive. When do you try to move him? After 2009? Now?

By 2011, $11 million just might be peanuts; lots of econ types think inflation might be just around the corner.

The Reds have a very good thing in BP. Yes, he has some flaws, as do most players not named Pujols.

But I'd ride this pony as long as I could.

camisadelgolf
12-18-2008, 12:37 PM
I'd trade him as soon as someone offers an impact shortstop or catcher, no matter when it is.

OnBaseMachine
12-18-2008, 12:38 PM
By 2011, $11 million just might be peanuts; lots of econ types think inflation might be just around the corner.

The Reds have a very good thing in BP. Yes, he has some flaws, as do most players not named Pujols.

But I'd ride this pony as long as I could.

Agreed. The defense is bad enough, why trade the best defender on the team? Of course, if I were knocked over with an offer I'd trade him, but otherwise I'd keep him.

pahster
12-18-2008, 12:40 PM
When should the Reds trade Phillips? Last offseason. It seems to me that his value is unlikely to ever be as high as it was a year ago.

WMR
12-18-2008, 12:40 PM
I'd trade him as soon as someone offers an impact shortstop or catcher, no matter when it is.

Russell Martin + Kemp for Brandon Phillips + Homer +........

BRM
12-18-2008, 12:41 PM
Agreed. The defense is bad enough, why trade the best defender on the team? Of course, if I were knocked over with an offer I'd trade him, but otherwise I'd keep him.

If you are ever going to get knocked over by an offer, it's probably this offseason. He's still cheap and he just won a Gold Glove. I see no harm in at least seeing what other team's are willing to give up for him. His value has got to be pretty high right now.

pahster
12-18-2008, 12:41 PM
Russell Martin + Kemp for Brandon Phillips + Homer +........

I wouldn't make that trade were I Ned Colletti. That said, I'm probably a lot smarter than him.

M2
12-18-2008, 12:48 PM
By 2011, $11 million just might be peanuts; lots of econ types think inflation might be just around the corner.

The Reds have a very good thing in BP. Yes, he has some flaws, as do most players not named Pujols.

But I'd ride this pony as long as I could.

That's my general thinking too. Plus, it strikes me as self-mutilating for the worst defensive team in the NL to get rid of its only plus defender.

Also, the Reds would become perhaps the dullest team in existence if Phillips were to be shipped out.

camisadelgolf
12-18-2008, 01:13 PM
Russell Martin + Kemp for Brandon Phillips + Homer +........

I don't think that would scratch the surface of what the Dodgers would expect in return, but I'd do it in a heart beat. Even if you added Todd Frazier, Danny Dorn, and Matt Maloney, I would let that deal happen.

RedsManRick
12-18-2008, 01:14 PM
I start quietly shopping him yesterday. He's in his peak and he's not likely to get any better with the glove or the bat. He's only going to get more expensive. His trade value will only go down unless he makes a big improvement in his game, which isn't likely.

Obviously the value has to be there. You certainly don't move him just to clear salary, because he is a bargain given his production. But he represents a great opportunity to add multiple impact players in the right deal.

WMR
12-18-2008, 01:15 PM
I don't think that would scratch the surface of what the Dodgers would expect in return, but I'd do it in a heart beat. Even if you added Todd Frazier, Danny Dorn, and Matt Maloney, I would let that deal happen.

Yeah you're most likely right in terms of added pieces needed, but the Dodgers supposedly aren't in love with Martin and I think they somewhat undervalue what Kemp brings to the table. I'd be willing to add just about any pieces outside of the "Big 4" that they wanted.

Raisor
12-18-2008, 01:21 PM
I start quietly shopping him yesterday. He's in his peak and he's not likely to get any better with the glove or the bat. He's only going to get more expensive. His trade value will only go down unless he makes a big improvement in his game, which isn't likely.

Obviously the value has to be there. You certainly don't move him just to clear salary, because he is a bargain given his production. But he represents a great opportunity to add multiple impact players in the right deal.

This is where I am too.

There's some team out there that would overpay (in talent) for BP, I'd be searching for those teams.

Raisor
12-18-2008, 01:30 PM
Also, the Reds would become perhaps the dullest team in existence if Phillips were to be shipped out.


Well Taveras will probably be on the team, and he's probably , at most, exciting.:thumbup:

RedLegSuperStar
12-18-2008, 01:44 PM
I'm not a big fan of dealing our best defensive player. Especially with no replacement at 2nd. Valaika or Frazier are viable options but would need some seasoning in AAA. A Phillips trade would have to result in someone over paying to get him. After Orlando Hudson their isn't much in terms of FA and Kelly Johnson has been rumored to be dealt for a OFer. Other then that its pretty dry. Now would seem prime time to look tradel. He has a 30/30 season in 07 and a GG in 08. Hes pretty cheap for his pos.

NJReds
12-18-2008, 01:47 PM
Let's give Dusty the best Christmas ever:

- Trade Phillips to the Mets for Luis Castillo and cash.

- Acquire Willie Tavaras and Juan Pierre to man left and center field

Raisor
12-18-2008, 01:50 PM
Let's give Dusty the best Christmas ever:

- Trade Phillips to the Mets for Luis Castillo and cash.

- Acquire Willie Tavaras and Juan Pierre to man left and center field


http://www.gamerevolution.com/images/misc/galactus.jpg

BRM
12-18-2008, 01:51 PM
Let's give Dusty the best Christmas ever:

- Trade Phillips to the Mets for Luis Castillo and cash.

- Acquire Willie Tavaras and Juan Pierre to man left and center field

I expect TRF to show up here soon and flog you mercilessly.

Jpup
12-18-2008, 01:54 PM
Let's give Dusty the best Christmas ever:

- Trade Phillips to the Mets for Luis Castillo and cash.

- Acquire Willie Tavaras and Juan Pierre to man left and center field

:help:

RichRed
12-18-2008, 02:01 PM
:help:

Don't worry, it'll never happen. I mean, where would Corey Patterson play after we re-sign him?

Jpup
12-18-2008, 02:06 PM
Don't worry, it'll never happen. I mean, where would Corey Patterson play after we re-sign him?

Hopper and Nix will be left out too. Maybe they can trade Bruce for Reggie Abercrombie.

KronoRed
12-18-2008, 02:07 PM
Let's give Dusty the best Christmas ever:

- Trade Phillips to the Mets for Luis Castillo and cash.

- Acquire Willie Tavaras and Juan Pierre to man left and center field

We'll be like..the awesomest team ever! 150 wins easy.

Screwball
12-18-2008, 02:13 PM
150 wins easy.

Between now and 2011?

WMR
12-18-2008, 02:14 PM
We'll be like..the awesomest team ever! 150 wins easy.

Who spiked Krono's apple juice? :D

TRF
12-18-2008, 02:16 PM
Let's give Dusty the best Christmas ever:

- Trade Phillips to the Mets for Luis Castillo and cash.

- Acquire Willie Tavaras and Juan Pierre to man left and center field

I have no pity on you for being eaten by Galactus.

You brought it on yourself.

Raisor
12-18-2008, 02:21 PM
I have no pity on you for being eaten by Galactus.

You brought it on yourself.

The Silver Surfer wasn't even needed to bring Galactus to his feeding it was that much of a sure thing.

edabbs44
12-18-2008, 02:21 PM
Just got back from Vegas...saw this over/under line:

8.5: Number of posts into any legitimate RedsZone thread where someone will mention Baker/CPatt, Pierre, Taveras or another all speed, no hit guy/OBP in a completely unrelated manner.

TRF
12-18-2008, 02:22 PM
Honestly, the time is right now to be sniffing offers IF the Reds are not going for it. His value will never be higher. The middle infield would be brutal though. IMO the Reds could do the following:

Trade BP and 2 minor leaguers to the Dodgers for Kemp and Hu. (that's one helluva DP combo, Furcal/BP)

Live with AGon as the starter if he's healthy with Hu as his caddy. Kepp or Hairston (if/when he signs) at 2B.

And for the kicker, Try to sign Ben Sheets (has he signed anywhere yet?)

dfs
12-18-2008, 02:26 PM
I don't think you trade BP just to get rid of him.
Without Turner at AAA, trading Phillips got a bit harder.
Without Freel on the roster, trading Phillips got a smidge harder.

Really without those guys, your talking about turning second base over to an unsigned free agent or hoping that the good Jeff Kepinger shows up and can physically stay around for a year. (And you are now weaker at shortstop)

Anybody want to stand up and say Todd Frazier can handle second? I don't know that he can.

All that said, if the right offer is on the table for BP, I trade him without looking back. Second basemen get injured. BP's skills are the skills of an old player suggesting that he might not age well.

TRF
12-18-2008, 02:29 PM
I don't think you trade BP just to get rid of him.
Without Turner at AAA, trading Phillips got a bit harder.
Without Freel on the roster, trading Phillips got a smidge harder.

Really without those guys, your talking about turning second base over to an unsigned free agent or hoping that the good Jeff Kepinger shows up and can physically stay around for a year. (And you are now weaker at shortstop)

Anybody want to stand up and say Todd Frazier can handle second? I don't know that he can.

All that said, if the right offer is on the table for BP, I trade him without looking back. Second basemen get injured. BP's skills are the skills of an old player suggesting that he might not age well.

Any position on the field that keeps Kepp from manning SS makes SS stronger, not weaker.

BP has old player skills? how so?

dfs
12-18-2008, 02:46 PM
Any position on the field that keeps Kepp from manning SS makes SS stronger, not weaker.

I disagree with that. I think right now Keppinger is the best shorstop they have who can play at the major league level. I think that's one of the big holes in the way the current 25 man roster looks. He may not be GOOD, but he's the best they have.
Even if they bring somebody in, or the health fairy pays a visit to the Gonzalez household, Keppinger on the bench makes SS deeper and better.


BP has old player skills? how so?

Did you ever write something that was just wrong? After thinking about it....yeah, that's what I did.

For some reason, I don't get a sense that BP is going to age gracefully. Call it personal bias and you're right.

red-in-la
12-18-2008, 02:57 PM
This off-season would be my druthers. Sell that Gold Glove for all it's worth.

How do you BUILD a team if you dump every gem as soon as he cost more than the league minimum? Unless you think the Reds AAA team can win the WS the next year, you have to BUILD with a combination of experience and youth.

It seems as though the moment a player has some success, somebody brings up the "sell high" montra. :eek:

Well, this is too much pressure for me.....it is like going into the bottom of the 9th, down three every single game. The offense (the farm system) just cannot hold up to that kind of pressure.....and neither can I (as a fan).:D

BRM
12-18-2008, 03:14 PM
How do you BUILD a team if you dump every gem as soon as he cost more than the league minimum? Unless you think the Reds AAA team can win the WS the next year, you have to BUILD with a combination of experience and youth.

It seems as though the moment a player has some success, somebody brings up the "sell high" montra. :eek:

Well, this is too much pressure for me.....it is like going into the bottom of the 9th, down three every single game. The offense (the farm system) just cannot hold up to that kind of pressure.....and neither can I (as a fan).:D

First of all, no one is advocating "dumping" BP. The idea of "sell high" is to acquire multiple impact players. The only way anyone would be comfortable trading BP is if he brought back multiple players who could fill two or three of the team's current holes.

Raisor
12-18-2008, 03:17 PM
First of all, no one is advocating "dumping" BP. The idea of "sell high" is to acquire multiple impact players. The only way anyone would be comfortable trading BP is if he brought back multiple players who could fill two or three of the team's current holes.

http://ac4.yt-thm-a02.yimg.com/image/5bdf87adc090006a

EXACTamundo.

RedsManRick
12-18-2008, 03:19 PM
How do you BUILD a team if you dump every gem as soon as he cost more than the league minimum? Unless you think the Reds AAA team can win the WS the next year, you have to BUILD with a combination of experience and youth.

It seems as though the moment a player has some success, somebody brings up the "sell high" montra. :eek:

Well, this is too much pressure for me.....it is like going into the bottom of the 9th, down three every single game. The offense (the farm system) just cannot hold up to that kind of pressure.....and neither can I (as a fan).:D

How do you acquire enough talent to break through the threshold of mediocrity if you pretend like every gem you have is invaluable?

It's one thing if you're sitting on a 75 win roster with 15-20 wins worth of talent coming in the next 2 years through the minors (or which you can afford in FA) and those 75 wins of talent locked in. Over the next 1-2 years, I'm pretty confident the win level of talent on the Reds' 25 man roster will improve as our young talent matures and our "veteran" talent enjoys a relatively flat sustained peak.

However, I'm quite worried that the flow of talent through that pipeline is not sufficient to put us up to or over the 90 win mark, as it will be forced to also offset the loss of veteran talent which becomes less effective or is traded to maintain payroll. We're close, but short of some really good luck with young talent advancing more quickly than anticipated and all our vets staying healthy and productive, I see us peaking in the mid-high 80's.

The problem is that our minor league pipeline, while strong, doesn't look to be sufficient to fill that 15-20 win gap. Similarly, we don't have the budget to go out and buy more wins in free agency. Phillips is in a spot where his production isn't likely to increase, but his salary will -- significantly. While he's paid fairly for his production, the calculus of the Reds needs to change.

Maybe moving Phillips isn't the best way to accomplish that. Trading Cordero or Arroyo would move more salary while giving up less production. However, it also would return less value. I advocate trading Phillips because I think some team would be willing to pay a premium. That is, they wouldn't just give us what he's worth, but would pay us extra because of the difficulty it is in finding the combination of talents, age, salary, etc. he entails.

The trade has to be the right one. It needs to return production the current roster and fatten the relatively near-term pipeline of talent, while freeing salary. If it doesn't do all 3 of those things, it probably doesn't make sense. But I think it could. If trading Phillips is considering an option at all, now is the time.

HokieRed
12-18-2008, 03:20 PM
The problem with trading BP is indicated by a number of the posts here. He won't bring a number of impact players because he simply isn't that good. He's a slightly above average second baseman with an atrocious platoon differential that severely undermines his value. And the last years of his contract, which are not that far away, are very much inflated, IMHO. So he's pretty effectively immovable for anything of much value at present. If we move him, we won't get anything that will come close to satisfying most RZers b/c we'll be asking somebody else to take on the liability of that contract and they'll take out a pound of our flesh for assuming it.

bucksfan2
12-18-2008, 03:26 PM
How do you BUILD a team if you dump every gem as soon as he cost more than the league minimum? Unless you think the Reds AAA team can win the WS the next year, you have to BUILD with a combination of experience and youth.

It seems as though the moment a player has some success, somebody brings up the "sell high" montra. :eek:

Well, this is too much pressure for me.....it is like going into the bottom of the 9th, down three every single game. The offense (the farm system) just cannot hold up to that kind of pressure.....and neither can I (as a fan).:D

I agree. I have a feeling Phillips will become the new lightening rod for criticism. He is 28 and entering the prime of his career. There is arguably no better defensive second baseman in the game. He does have his limitations on offense but he is exactly the type of player you can plug in at 2b day in day out and get production from.

I don't get the logic of selling Phillips high when you still have two relatively cheap years out of him. There is no one in the minors who can even come close to replacing Phillips production. They only way I would even consider trading Phillips if it made the club better not only now but also in the future. Since there is not heir apparent at 2b to Phillips you are only going to make the team worse by trading Phillips.

acredsfan
12-18-2008, 03:37 PM
First of all, no one is advocating "dumping" BP. The idea of "sell high" is to acquire multiple impact players. The only way anyone would be comfortable trading BP is if he brought back multiple players who could fill two or three of the team's current holes.The very idea of trading is to trade your excess to get a return to fill existing holes. Seeing that we have no replacements for BP and the FA class is weak for middle infield types, that would just be creating a gaping hole to fill other holes. The bad thing is we don't have any depth to trade from. We are better signing free agents who cost us no young talent because we don't have enough of that young talent to spare.

Another thing is you can't fill multiple holes by trading away one good young player. As I stated before, we can't afford to package our young talent to try to fill a particular hole becase that will create other holes.

Just as you can't have too much turnover in the management, you can't have too much turnover in the core of your team. Brandon not only is an above average player, he could also become a veteran leader on this young team. I get you can't consider every good player invaluable, but you also can't consider every good player as trade bait if you want to build lasting success.

_Sir_Charles_
12-18-2008, 04:01 PM
He's in his prime years. Why is it that Reds fans want to dump a player during his prime years? I just don't get that. Sure, his trade value is near it's highest. That's for a reason. How about we KEEP a few players around who are playing at their peak level instead of always dumping them to save salary. Its not OUR money, why are fans so damned concerned about the financial status of the owner? As long as he's paying to get the best players he can, that's all I care about. And I just don't see many secondbaseman whom I'd prefer over Phillips. We've got a plethora of young talent in the minors...use THAT to fill the holes in the big club. Sign FA's to fill holes. Don't deal away your prime assets to fill a hole that only creates yet another hole. I just don't get that attitude. Now if we have somebody completely ready to step in and fill Phillip's shoes today, I'd consider it. But we don't. Everybody's down on Kepp's glove work, but it's not going to be THAT much better at 2nd than at SS. Keep Brandon.

WMR
12-18-2008, 04:05 PM
How do you BUILD a team if you dump every gem as soon as he cost more than the league minimum? Unless you think the Reds AAA team can win the WS the next year, you have to BUILD with a combination of experience and youth.

It seems as though the moment a player has some success, somebody brings up the "sell high" montra. :eek:

Well, this is too much pressure for me.....it is like going into the bottom of the 9th, down three every single game. The offense (the farm system) just cannot hold up to that kind of pressure.....and neither can I (as a fan).:D

Did you even bother to read the post where I detailed what I would target in return for BP?

BRM
12-18-2008, 04:08 PM
Did you even bother to read the post where I detailed what I would target in return for BP?

Apparently several people skipped it. Any mention of trading BP is considered "dumping him". You're really not interested in improving the team overall.

Jpup
12-18-2008, 04:12 PM
No way I want to trade Phillips unless the Reds are blown away. I wouldn't give him away though. There is a lot of double talk on this board lately. People say that outfielders are easier to find, but you want to trade Phillips for an outfielder and a shortstop that isn't any better than Janish. We cry when the Reds are cheap, but we want them to trade anyone that makes any money. We would rather settle for Juan Rivera than try to get a great player in Bobby Abreu because of money. We ran Adam Dunn out or town because he made too much money to be striking out so much. This is life as a Reds fan. Good teams are good for a reason. They have good players. The Reds have about 6 or 7.

BRM
12-18-2008, 04:14 PM
No way I want to trade Phillips unless the Reds are blown away. I wouldn't give him away though.

This is precisely what the "shop BP" crowd is saying. See if a GM will pay a premium for him. I think a few would. If not, keep him.

Jpup
12-18-2008, 04:20 PM
This is precisely what the "shop BP" crowd is saying. See if a GM will pay a premium for him. I think a few would. If not, keep him.

LA might be the right place, but Hu is not a guy that I target as something valuable. They were sniffing at Cano for a while, but the Yanks want to keep him. Kemp is fine, but you have to get more for him than that.

WMR
12-18-2008, 04:21 PM
Russell Martin + Kemp for Brandon Phillips + Homer +........

Jpup
12-18-2008, 04:22 PM
you ain't getting Russell Martin from the Dodgers unless you are sending them Johnny Cueto or Edinson Volquez IMO.

WMR
12-18-2008, 04:24 PM
Colletti's been known to screw the pooch before...

BRM
12-18-2008, 04:25 PM
Colletti's been known to screw the pooch before...

What if Kemp was dropped? Would you do BP and Homer for Martin?

Jpup
12-18-2008, 04:26 PM
What if Kemp was dropped? Would you do BP and Homer for Martin?

I would do that. I would trade half the farm for Martin.

BRM
12-18-2008, 04:28 PM
I would do that. I would trade half the farm for Martin.

I would love to know what the real trade value of Homer Bailey is. Honestly, I can't see him bringing back much even if he's paired with Phillips.

Jpup
12-18-2008, 04:36 PM
I would love to know what the real trade value of Homer Bailey is. Honestly, I can't see him bringing back much even if he's paired with Phillips.

I don't know, but I doubt Phillips and Homer would get Martin. If you threw in Burton and something else, it might get him.

WMR
12-18-2008, 04:42 PM
What if Kemp was dropped? Would you do BP and Homer for Martin?

I would, but I'd rather just keep adding pieces outside the "big 4" until they said yes.

red-in-la
12-18-2008, 04:49 PM
I think you guys are WAY over valuing Martin. That said, the Dodgers aren't going to trade him.....IMHO.:D

Caveat Emperor
12-18-2008, 05:59 PM
I think you guys are WAY over valuing Martin. That said, the Dodgers aren't going to trade him.....IMHO.:D

A 25 year-old, gold-glove catcher that OBPs .385, can steal a base AND occasionally jack one out of the yard?

I don't know that it is possible to overvalue that, considering the dearth of quality catching in the bigs.

But I agree -- the Dodgers would be insane to move him.

M2
12-18-2008, 06:18 PM
How do you BUILD a team if you dump every gem as soon as he cost more than the league minimum? Unless you think the Reds AAA team can win the WS the next year, you have to BUILD with a combination of experience and youth.

I'm with you. I don't mind selling high if you've got an able replacement ready to take over or if you're talking about a 1B or if a guy has just had what you think is a fluke good season.

Yet none of that applies to Phillips. That's just blowing a hole in your team for the sake of blowing a hole in your team. The Reds need his glove and power-speed combination. The only way I'd trade him is if I were doing a complete rebuild. In which case I'd be moving Harang and Arroyo too.

The Reds have question marks at SS and one OF position, possibly two OF positions dependent on how well you like Chris Dickerson. They lack a long-term answer at C. And on top of that people now want to throw 2B into schism? No thanks.

Mario-Rijo
12-18-2008, 06:21 PM
A 25 year-old, gold-glove catcher that OBPs .385, can steal a base AND occasionally jack one out of the yard?

I don't know that it is possible to overvalue that, considering the dearth of quality catching in the bigs.

But I agree -- the Dodgers would be insane to move him.

The last word I heard on that was that they weren't all that enthralled with his development as a catcher (not real sure why). They were planning on keeping him but moving him back to 3B (his original position). He's valuable regardless but at 3B his value drops quite a bit compared to catcher. Of course now they have re-signed Blake to play 3B so who knows maybe he's someone that can be a target next season if we don't p/u Hernandez's option.

RedsManRick
12-18-2008, 08:15 PM
I'm with you. I don't mind selling high if you've got an able replacement ready to take over or if you're talking about a 1B or if a guy has just had what you think is a fluke good season.

Yet none of that applies to Phillips. That's just blowing a hole in your team for the sake of blowing a hole in your team. The Reds need his glove and power-speed combination. The only way I'd trade him is if I were doing a complete rebuild. In which case I'd be moving Harang and Arroyo too.

The Reds have question marks at SS and one OF position, possibly two OF positions dependent on how well you like Chris Dickerson. They lack a long-term answer at C. And on top of that people now want to throw 2B into schism? No thanks.

The point of "blowing a hole" at 2B is to fill multiple holes elsewhere. That's the point.

I'm not talking about trading Phillips for a package of prospects who might provide no value at all. Rather, I'm talking taking a slight hit at the major league level (if at all) plus acquiring player(s) who could be significant additions in and of themselves.

This team has to add talent, period. You might get there by packaging up C prospects and signing decent risks like Juan Rivera. But there's no use in sitting on your hands and closing doors to add net talent when you're not even close to being in the hunt as is.

M2
12-18-2008, 08:29 PM
The point of "blowing a hole" at 2B is to fill multiple holes elsewhere. That's the point.

I'm not talking about trading Phillips for a package of prospects who might provide no value at all. Rather, I'm talking taking a slight hit at the major league level (if at all) plus acquiring player(s) who could be significant additions in and of themselves.

This team has to add talent, period. You might get there by packaging up C prospects and signing decent risks like Juan Rivera. But there's no use in sitting on your hands and closing doors to add net talent when you're not even close to being in the hunt as is.

The reality is that you ARE talking about a package of prospects who might provide no value at all. Obviously the hope would be the prospects would do better than that over time, but you're talking about a deal for a nebulous future that might not capably fill a single immediate hole on the roster. No team is trading an established SS or C plus extras for a 2B. You don't fill a hole at 2B by creating one at SS. That's just common sense. Any team that would be in the market for Phillips would be looking to win immediately and no way would it be doing more than dealing prospects and fringe major leaguers in a trade for Phillips. When you get down to it, that's the point.

And I'm all for talent too. That's why I'm against trading away an 18 WS 2B in his prime in the name of value engineering.

Now, if the Reds want to turn out the lights for a few years in the hopes of re-emerging in 2012 or so, then by all means trade Phillips, but recognize that's what it is (and then don't waste your money on Juan Rivera either).

RedsManRick
12-18-2008, 09:36 PM
The reality is that you ARE talking about a package of prospects who might provide no value at all.

Ummm, no. Thanks, but I know what I've said and I know what I mean. I would not trade Phillips for a package of prospects. If I could not trade him and get something like a Kemp in return as part of the package, I wouldn't advise trading him. It's about finding a player who fits our needs and is productive, but who is undervalued by his team. The prospects I'd want the value making up the perceived gap -- which in reality would be making the deal a net win for the Reds. It only takes 1 GM.

Maybe that's a pipe dream. But that was my stance. I'd be shopping him for a package such as the one I've described. In a league where Kazmir gets traded for Victor Zambrano and AJ Pierzynski can land you Nathan, Liriano, and Bosner, you're stupid to not be in the market. Now those aren't examples of packages I'd want for Phillips, because I agree you don't trade him solely for a group of question marks. But the point is that GMs do stupid things in the name of adding one last piece to the puzzle.

I'm not talking about being set on dealing away Phillips and taking the best package of talent you can get simply for the sake of adding talent. I'm talking about exploring opportunities to find somebody who is willing to pay through the nose for a player whom they think merits the cost.

I appreciate your destruction the RMR-faced strawman and actually agree with your assertion that a package that makes sense isn't likely to be out there, but your characterization of my position as "trading away an 18 WS 2B in his prime in the name of value engineering" is simply inaccurate.

Mario-Rijo
12-18-2008, 09:50 PM
I'd rather keep BP myself, I don't think his contract will ever be problematic. I know people look at his '08 season and see a decline, i'd just call it a down year. I fully expect him to bounce back next season if he doesn't then I start to worry. I think getting him out of the #4 hole will help him, if he doesn't take it as a slap in the face. If he does that's his problem if it effects his play negatively.

However If I were gonna make a deal for BP I think the Dodgers make a lot of sense. However I don't believe the targets listed are realistic because the Dodgers are so tight when it comes to their youth. I'm sure a lot of people come after Kemp/Martin/Ethier/name pitching etc.

Guys I would target would be as follows:
Ramon Troncoso RHRP (25 yr old power sinker specialist)
Ivan DeJesus SS (21 yr old AA last season) (good posts in minor league talk about him by redhawk61 and others)
Blake DeWitt or another minor leaguer to top it off.

Sign O-Dog to a 2-3 yr deal.

15fan
12-18-2008, 10:00 PM
When should the Reds trade Phillips? Last offseason. It seems to me that his value is unlikely to ever be as high as it was a year ago.

Smart man.

Just like the time to trade Homer Bailey was after the 2007 season.

Sell high.

remdog
12-18-2008, 10:07 PM
The original question was when to move Phillips. I'm guessing here but I'm thinking that Walt has been looking for that deal since he became the GM.

Maybe the right deal is out there but maybe it hasn't been so far....I just think that Walt has this in the back of his mind and is open to it if the right value comes back.

Rem

M2
12-18-2008, 10:13 PM
Ummm, no. Thanks, but I know what I've said and I know what I mean. I would not trade Phillips for a package of prospects.

Then you wouldn't be trading him and all you're doing with the rest is throwing out worthless hypotheticals.

I mean, sure, I'd trade Phillips, or really anyone, if another GM overwhelmed me or if another GM was willing to give me multiple quality players that he clearly undervalues. But if the bar is you'll move Phillips when you get a dream offer, then the answer is that you really wouldn't move Phillips. Every GM listens on everybody, they just don't plan on getting offers they can't refuse.

And maybe you don't consider "Phillips is in a spot where his production isn't likely to increase, but his salary will -- significantly." to smack of value engineering, but I do and it's not like you aren't a wee bit honed on the concept of valuation. Honestly, what's wrong with value engineering anyway? I mean most people on this board -- old school and new school -- are for it. I think it leads to a bunch of screwy decisions, but I've always been in a minority on that front. So why flirt with value engineering in one post and eschew it another? Give it a big sloppy kiss instead.

remdog
12-18-2008, 10:18 PM
BTW, I'd do that Kemp+Martin deal in a heartbeat. If Homer doesn't make it work I'd offer Arroyo and a minor league pitcher from Maloney, Rameriez and that group.

If the deal happens with Bronson I'd tell Homer it's time to suck it up 'cause he's gettin' 30 or so starts this year and it's time to put up or shut up.

Trading Lee Maye and Tommy Helms + parts for Joe Morgan and Jack Billingham + parts is one of those unthinkable deals that makes a team a Champion overnight. Obviously, that's not easy to do and it's even harder than '72 now because of FA and contracts but, I believe that every GM is looking for [i]that[/] deal. I certainly hope and believe that Walt is.

Rem

RedsManRick
12-18-2008, 10:43 PM
And maybe you don't consider "Phillips is in a spot where his production isn't likely to increase, but his salary will -- significantly." to smack of value engineering, but I do and it's not like you aren't a wee bit honed on the concept of valuation. Honestly, what's wrong with value engineering anyway? I mean most people on this board -- old school and new school -- are for it. I think it leads to a bunch of screwy decisions, but I've always been in a minority on that front. So why flirt with value engineering in one post and eschew it another? Give it a big sloppy kiss instead.

I'm incredibly honed in on it and will happily make out it with hours. I think that way too often, GMs of crappy teams worry about talent alignment and simply creating a plausible scenario for success given the right what-if chain. What they should be doing is everything in their power to acquire talent such that, when properly reorganized, it consistences a winning team. Reshuffling talent is much easier than acquiring net talent. Just ask the Rays.

It does no good to worry about risking an edge piece when you're not going to have enough pieces to complete the puzzle anyways.

My concern with the Reds as currently constructed is that the window will never open wide enough. Unless Jocketty makes some significant moves yet this Winter, the Reds will not compete in 2009. Our current core is going to be even more expensive next year. Where are the ~20 wins we need on top of today's roster going to come from?

Some would argue that the crop of youngsters we have on the 25 man and the minors will mature quickly enough that, in combination with sustained production from our current core, we'll be there in 2010. I think there's a possibility of that, but it's much less than some people think. I would be exploring ways to take 1 step back in 2009 that made 3 steps forward in 2010 and 2011 a much greater possibility and I think Phillips represents the best chance to do that.

I would argue that you have a much better chance of getting the offer you can't refuse if you're out there actively looking for it instead of sitting back and listening. I realize GMs can't explore every possibility with every player. So my suggestion is that the Reds should be out there trying to drum up what what represents their best opportunity for a big win in a trade.

M2
12-18-2008, 11:10 PM
My concern with the Reds as currently constructed is that the window will never open wide enough. Unless Jocketty makes some significant moves yet this Winter, the Reds will not compete in 2009. Our current core is going to be even more expensive next year. Where are the ~20 wins we need on top of today's roster going to come from?

Where are they going to come from? That's an easy one. They're not going to come at all. The Reds will continue to live in Neither/Nor Land - neither being good enough to put a winning product on the field nor taking the plunge into rebuilding.

We already know from the Hernandez deal and the Rhodes signing that the Reds are looking to make a run in 2009. I think Jocketty deserves the benefit of a doubt when it comes to team building, but I don't have any hope he's going to make the half dozen more moves he needs to make this club into a winner (2 OFs, SS, bench bat, 5th starter, power reliever), let alone make them well.


I would argue that you have a much better chance of getting the offer you can't refuse if you're out there actively looking for it instead of sitting back and listening. I realize GMs can't explore every possibility with every player. So my suggestion is that the Reds should be out there trying to drum up what what represents their best opportunity for a big win in a trade.

There's a Spinal Tap parallel for everything, in this case there's a fine line between willing to be overwhelmed and shopping around to be overwhelmed. In the first place, it's a bit like shopping for a winning lottery ticket. Second, there are humans involved. If you spend your whole winter shopping Phillips like he fell off a truck and you've got to move him fast, then you'd better be committed to taking the best offer because otherwise you've got a player coming back who, rightfully, figures he's now working as a pure mercenary. Ballplayers need to believe - in themselves, in their coaches, in the team.

jojo
12-19-2008, 08:47 AM
It's not even a matter of needed to be overwhelmed. If trading Phillips makes the Reds better then they should do it. If trading him isn't likely to make the Reds better, they shouldn't do it.

It's within the realm of possible that a Phillips trade could be worked out that would make the Reds better (and I'm not talking about a trade where their trading partner would have to get reamed).

I'm not sure why such an assertion would be rejected.

lollipopcurve
12-19-2008, 09:15 AM
there are humans involved. If you spend your whole winter shopping Phillips like he fell off a truck and you've got to move him fast, then you'd better be committed to taking the best offer because otherwise you've got a player coming back who, rightfully, figures he's now working as a pure mercenary. Ballplayers need to believe - in themselves, in their coaches, in the team.

Absolutely. This is part of the reason teams don't like their trade talks leaked. Supposedly, the White Sox are aware that Jermaine Dye doesn't like being in rumors over an extended period of time...

Falls City Beer
12-19-2008, 09:21 AM
How did Galactus get dragged into this?

Dude's just noshing some planets.

bucksfan2
12-19-2008, 09:48 AM
It's not even a matter of needed to be overwhelmed. If trading Phillips makes the Reds better then they should do it. If trading him isn't likely to make the Reds better, they shouldn't do it.

Isn't this really the logic behind every trade? In every trade the club has an inherent goal. If a trade of Phillips will make this club better then I am for a trade. The big question is how does a trade make the club better? Where does the replacement for Phillips come from?

The way I look at it the Reds have very few average to above average middle infield options in the minors. Valakia could be an option if he can stick at short but if he can't I don't think he does much to help replace Phillips at 2b. Fraizer could be an option but from all the reports I have heard he looks either to move to 3b or OF. If you trade Phillips you would be doing so to fill a need of C, OF, or SS, but you also would create a need at 2b. In order of the trade to be worthwhile for the Reds you would have to fill atleast 2 positions of need in order to even think about trading Phillips.

Redhook
12-19-2008, 10:12 AM
When to move Phillips? Right now. To shortstop.

I'm still baffled why this hasn't happened yet. Finding a good SS is much more difficult than finding a 2B. Phillips could handle it just fine. He probably wouldn't be a gold-glover, but I believe he'd be better than average.

Plus, there is no one in the minors that is going to be the SS of the future. Valaika will be a 2B and Fraiser will be a 3B, 1B, or LF. I'd feel much better about this team this year and for the future if Phillips was penciled in at SS everyday.

Falls City Beer
12-19-2008, 10:53 AM
When to move Phillips? Right now. To shortstop.

I'm still baffled why this hasn't happened yet. Finding a good SS is much more difficult than finding a 2B. Phillips could handle it just fine. He probably wouldn't be a gold-glover, but I believe he'd be better than average.

Plus, there is no one in the minors that is going to be the SS of the future. Valaika will be a 2B and Fraiser will be a 3B, 1B, or LF. I'd feel much better about this team this year and for the future if Phillips was penciled in at SS everyday.

It would make a bunch of sense to move Phillips to short, but inertia's a powerful force. Phillips and his agent know darn well that Phillips isn't going to win a GG at short.

NJReds
12-19-2008, 10:56 AM
How did Galactus get dragged into this?

Dude's just noshing some planets.

Maybe we can sign him to play LF. Oh wait, I heard that he doesn't run out to his position. Forget it.

jojo
12-19-2008, 11:05 AM
Isn't this really the logic behind every trade? In every trade the club has an inherent goal. If a trade of Phillips will make this club better then I am for a trade. The big question is how does a trade make the club better? Where does the replacement for Phillips come from?

Ya, that's kind of my point. There is nothing mythical about Phillips. He doesn't consume the Cubs/Cardinals with fireballs from his eyes and bolts of lightning from his arse. He doesn't gather whole armies of his countrymen in defiance of tyranny. :cool:

What he does do is provide the Reds a level of production that can be valued within a relatively narrow range and can be projected into the future.

Concerning how the Reds might be made better, they are ahead by simply trading Brandon straight up for Escobar (Atl could move Furcal back to short).

Raisor
12-19-2008, 11:20 AM
How did Galactus get dragged into this?

Dude's just noshing some planets.



His mission has changed. He eats bad players now.

nate
12-19-2008, 11:50 AM
His mission has changed. He eats bad players now.

So he's hovering over Cincinnati?

Ltlabner
12-19-2008, 12:14 PM
So he's hovering over Cincinnati?

He might have to explore a Jenny Craig membership if the Cincy outfield shapes up the way the early rumors indicating.

fearofpopvol1
12-19-2008, 12:15 PM
It would make a bunch of sense to move Phillips to short, but inertia's a powerful force. Phillips and his agent know darn well that Phillips isn't going to win a GG at short.

Actually though, it really doesn't. Moving him to SS makes him a below average SS. It would take him a while to relearn the position and become comfortable there. Phillips would not be an above average SS. If you want to argue that he would be better there than Keppinger, that's another story.

Take your pick, an above average 2B or a below average SS. I'll go with the former.

RANDY IN INDY
12-19-2008, 12:19 PM
Actually though, it really doesn't. Moving him to SS makes him a below average SS. It would take him a while to relearn the position and become comfortable there. Phillips would not be an above average SS. If you want to argue that he would be better there than Keppinger, that's another story.

Take your pick, an above average 2B or a below average SS. I'll go with the former.

Gold Glove second baseman.

Falls City Beer
12-19-2008, 12:24 PM
Actually though, it really doesn't. Moving him to SS makes him a below average SS. It would take him a while to relearn the position and become comfortable there. Phillips would not be an above average SS. If you want to argue that he would be better there than Keppinger, that's another story.

Take your pick, an above average 2B or a below average SS. I'll go with the former.

There are a number of ways the Reds could go about fixing their SS problem. However, getting even an average one from the outside is pretty unlikely.

Getting an average or above average 2nd baseman from the outside is much easier.

RedEye
12-19-2008, 12:26 PM
We love to speculate about this topic here, but has there ever--I mean EVER--been any actual evidence that moving BP is an option for the team?

WMR
12-19-2008, 01:10 PM
Everything I ever read about Phillips was that he was straight up money at SS. He came up through the Indians system with a very good rep as a defensive SS. If we hadn't had FeLo when he was brought over, he'd have been a SS from the beginning.

Inertia sucks.

It's not going to happen, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't.

Cyclone792
12-19-2008, 01:27 PM
His mission has changed. He eats bad players now.

In that case, the Reds are like a massive Thanksgiving Day meal with an endless supply of leftovers.

fearofpopvol1
12-19-2008, 01:43 PM
There are a number of ways the Reds could go about fixing their SS problem. However, getting even an average one from the outside is pretty unlikely.

Getting an average or above average 2nd baseman from the outside is much easier.

There is nothing conclusive that would suggest Phillips would be even a league average SS.

And I disagree that it's all that easy to get an above average 2B.

WMR
12-19-2008, 01:51 PM
There is nothing conclusive that would suggest Phillips would be even a league average SS.

And I disagree that it's all that easy to get an above average 2B.

Look at his scouting reports from the minor leagues. He has hundreds of ABs logged as a SS.

M2
12-19-2008, 02:18 PM
Phillips, IMO, is cut a bit from the Pokey Reese mold. Pokey's whole game blossomed when he moved to 2B. He was, without question, the finest defensive 2B I've ever seen and I think that gave him confidence at the plate. Obviously he was never a good hitter, but the best he was ever able to manage at the plate came when he was playing 2B.

Phillips is a stellar 2B. He does stuff out there no one else can do. Switch him to SS, where his best might only be garden variety good and the resulting lack of confidence could follow him to the plate.

Aside from that, it's not easy to find an above average anything. In the rawest of terms, there are only 15 above average players at any position. And in the world of statistics, where the best players play the most and drag the averages up, you're really only talking about 10-12 above average players at a given position.

If the Reds had a great 2B parked in AAA, then I'd consider messing with Phillips' position. Yet they don't and I don't see why the club can't go out and acquire a SS to pair with Phillips.

fearofpopvol1
12-19-2008, 03:13 PM
Look at his scouting reports from the minor leagues. He has hundreds of ABs logged as a SS.

I've seen them. That was years ago now. It's not easy to just "step back in" to SS.

Falls City Beer
12-19-2008, 05:09 PM
Yet they don't and I don't see why the club can't go out and acquire a SS to pair with Phillips.

Because an above-average SS (offensively and defensively) is the rarest, most expensive commodity in all of MLB, more rare than a true ace starter.

An above-average 2nd baseman is nice, but nothing a team's going to empty the farm for.

M2
12-19-2008, 05:22 PM
Because an above-average SS (offensively and defensively) is the rarest, most expensive commodity in all of MLB, more rare than a true ace starter.

An above-average 2nd baseman is nice, but nothing a team's going to empty the farm for.

Well, I'm not talking about emptying the farm for anybody. The matter at hand is the Reds have one middle IF and need to acquire another. Realistically speaking, they aren't landing an obvious two-way standout at either SS or 2B unless they want to pay Volquez, Cueto or Bruce.

My take is get a young SS with the right glove and some unrealized upside at the plate.

In the meantime don't futz around with Phillips based on moves the club may never make.

Falls City Beer
12-19-2008, 05:31 PM
Well, I'm not talking about emptying the farm for anybody. The matter at hand is the Reds have one middle IF and need to acquire another. Realistically speaking, they aren't landing an obvious two-way standout at either SS or 2B unless they want to pay Volquez, Cueto or Bruce.

My take is get a young SS with the right glove and some unrealized upside at the plate.

In the meantime don't futz around with Phillips based on moves the club may never make.

My feelings wouldn't be hurt if they don't try to rewire what's already working with Phillips. Ideally, yeah, they find a SS. But the likelihood of finding someone better than, say, Janish without surrendering a definite principal from the farm or the MLB roster is probably nil. They've got to draft a superstar SS.

M2
12-19-2008, 06:10 PM
My feelings wouldn't be hurt if they don't try to rewire what's already working with Phillips. Ideally, yeah, they find a SS. But the likelihood of finding someone better than, say, Janish without surrendering a definite principal from the farm or the MLB roster is probably nil. They've got to draft a superstar SS.

A superstar? Yeah, they'd have to draft that or trade something serious for it. Yet they could find a kid who's between hype and delivery, and better than Janish ain't that hard to do.

TRF
12-19-2008, 06:35 PM
Well, I'm not talking about emptying the farm for anybody. The matter at hand is the Reds have one middle IF and need to acquire another. Realistically speaking, they aren't landing an obvious two-way standout at either SS or 2B unless they want to pay Volquez, Cueto or Bruce.

My take is get a young SS with the right glove and some unrealized upside at the plate.

In the meantime don't futz around with Phillips based on moves the club may never make.

Is there one available? cuz I haven't about one being available. Furcal is off the board. Anaheim might have one they might move. I bet ATL keeps Escobar now.

So the Reds trade BP to Cincinnati for Chris Valaika. BP becomes the SS and Valaika rakes as the 2B with decent but not spectacular range. The Reds don't lose any defense in this scenario and potentially GAIN a #8 hitter (Valaika) with a potential .850+ OPS bat over time.

I'm just not seeing anyone available outside the org. JJ Hardy is not going to be a Red.

M2
12-19-2008, 08:23 PM
Is there one available? cuz I haven't about one being available. Furcal is off the board. Anaheim might have one they might move. I bet ATL keeps Escobar now.

We're talking apples and oranges here. I am NOT talking about established shortstops like Furcal, Escobar and Hardy. I'm talking about shortstops who haven't established themselves yet (Hu, Burriss, Andino, Pennington).

As for Valaika, no thank you. He needs at least another full season in the minors.

Falls City Beer
12-19-2008, 08:44 PM
We're talking apples and oranges here. I am NOT talking about established shortstops like Furcal, Escobar and Hardy. I'm talking about shortstops who haven't established themselves yet (Hu, Burriss, Andino, Pennington).

As for Valaika, no thank you. He needs at least another full season in the minors.

I don't know anything about Pennington, but the other three are basically Janish. IMO.

RedsManRick
12-19-2008, 08:44 PM
We're talking apples and oranges here. I am NOT talking about established shortstops like Furcal, Escobar and Hardy. I'm talking about shortstops who haven't established themselves yet (Hu, Burriss, Andino, Pennington).

As for Valaika, no thank you. He needs at least another full season in the minors.

M2, while we've disagreed at length about BP here, I agree 100% on the SS issue. Without a doubt in my mind, this team's #1 concern should be acquiring a SS of the future -- one with a plus glove and an above replacement bat.

We've got CF options abound in the minors. We've got corner bats. We need a real SS.

M2
12-19-2008, 08:52 PM
I don't know anything about Pennington, but the other three are basically Janish. IMO.

IMO, Janish a decided step below. He's never going to hit in the majors. At least one of the guys I listed is going to have a major league career.

TRF
12-19-2008, 10:48 PM
Burriss isn't going anywhere after acquitting himself so well at the major league level. Pennington probably can hit a bit. Andino and Hu are likely nothing more than Janish. Burris will likely be either the starting SS or 2B before the end of the year. Pennington is likely the heir at SS in Oakland. Neither guy is going anywhere. That leaves the Janish clones from your group.

I'm not disagreeing with the premise, but the targets have to be

From a system loaded with MI prospects
Frome a system that matches up with what the Reds have to offer.

Unfortunately, the Reds are awash with the most common types of prospects in the minors: Corner IF/OF types. There is SOME SP depth. That can always get you a bat.

But Andino and Hu are just Bergolla and Olmedo.

WVRedsFan
12-19-2008, 11:04 PM
The question is (and I'm a little late on this, btw) whether or not BP is the kind of player you want to build a club around. If the answer is yes, ride him as long as you can. If not, trade him in the 2009 off-season.

M2
12-19-2008, 11:43 PM
But Andino and Hu are just Bergolla and Olmedo.

Andino might be a new model Olmedo, but I think Hu's a serious sleeper. His defense is superb and he's got some bat-on-ball skills at the plate.

The Giants just signed Edgar Renteria for two years, so I doubt Burriss is untouchable.

TRF
12-20-2008, 12:06 AM
The Giants can afford to eat Renteria's contract if/when he earns his way to the bench ala the human pickin machine and Votto. not that extreme, but a similar case.

wheels
12-20-2008, 12:21 AM
A superstar? Yeah, they'd have to draft that or trade something serious for it. Yet they could find a kid who's between hype and delivery, and better than Janish ain't that hard to do.

Cedeno.

M2
12-20-2008, 12:29 AM
The Giants can afford to eat Renteria's contract if/when he earns his way to the bench ala the human pickin machine and Votto. not that extreme, but a similar case.

But they didn't just sign with with the notion of not playing him. At this moment in time the Giants think Edgar Renteria is their SS. That franchise likes its veterans.

mth123
12-20-2008, 04:54 AM
Phillips, IMO, is cut a bit from the Pokey Reese mold. Pokey's whole game blossomed when he moved to 2B. He was, without question, the finest defensive 2B I've ever seen and I think that gave him confidence at the plate. Obviously he was never a good hitter, but the best he was ever able to manage at the plate came when he was playing 2B.

Phillips is a stellar 2B. He does stuff out there no one else can do. Switch him to SS, where his best might only be garden variety good and the resulting lack of confidence could follow him to the plate.

Aside from that, it's not easy to find an above average anything. In the rawest of terms, there are only 15 above average players at any position. And in the world of statistics, where the best players play the most and drag the averages up, you're really only talking about 10-12 above average players at a given position.

If the Reds had a great 2B parked in AAA, then I'd consider messing with Phillips' position. Yet they don't and I don't see why the club can't go out and acquire a SS to pair with Phillips.

Bingo.

Mario-Rijo
12-20-2008, 05:44 AM
Burriss isn't going anywhere after acquitting himself so well at the major league level. Pennington probably can hit a bit. Andino and Hu are likely nothing more than Janish. Burris will likely be either the starting SS or 2B before the end of the year. Pennington is likely the heir at SS in Oakland. Neither guy is going anywhere. That leaves the Janish clones from your group.

I'm not disagreeing with the premise, but the targets have to be

From a system loaded with MI prospects
Frome a system that matches up with what the Reds have to offer.

Unfortunately, the Reds are awash with the most common types of prospects in the minors: Corner IF/OF types. There is SOME SP depth. That can always get you a bat.

But Andino and Hu are just Bergolla and Olmedo.

I listed some in another thread but Izturis, Aybar, DeJesus Jr., Andrus, Brignac. DeJesus Jr sounds like the perfect target he is above average defensively and his bat is right up the alley we are looking for. He played last year for the Dodgers AA club and tore it up at 21 I believe it was. With the Furcal signing and HU's presence maybe he can be had but it'll likely cost, of course I don't really care what it costs (as long as it's not the big 4).

mth123
12-20-2008, 02:22 PM
Burriss isn't going anywhere after acquitting himself so well at the major league level. Pennington probably can hit a bit. Andino and Hu are likely nothing more than Janish. Burris will likely be either the starting SS or 2B before the end of the year. Pennington is likely the heir at SS in Oakland. Neither guy is going anywhere. That leaves the Janish clones from your group.

I'm not disagreeing with the premise, but the targets have to be

From a system loaded with MI prospects
Frome a system that matches up with what the Reds have to offer.

Unfortunately, the Reds are awash with the most common types of prospects in the minors: Corner IF/OF types. There is SOME SP depth. That can always get you a bat.

But Andino and Hu are just Bergolla and Olmedo.

The worst thing about all of this is that, IMO, Olmedo would be an improvement over anyone on the roster except a healthy Gonzalez (who IMO no longer exists). I actually think Andino could be better than that, but if he can be had for little as Ramp suggested in another thread, I trade one of the garden variety corner guys or 5th starter/swingmen that the Reds have for him.

cincrazy
12-21-2008, 02:45 AM
Let's give Dusty the best Christmas ever:

- Trade Phillips to the Mets for Luis Castillo and cash.

- Acquire Willie Tavaras and Juan Pierre to man left and center field

:bang::cry::all_cohol:duel::nono::yikes::barf:

Pretty much sums up my thoughts.