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TRF
12-18-2008, 06:36 PM
This from M2 in another thread got me thinking...


Yet none of that applies to Phillips. That's just blowing a hole in your team for the sake of blowing a hole in your team. The Reds need his glove and power-speed combination. The only way I'd trade him is if I were doing a complete rebuild. In which case I'd be moving Harang and Arroyo too.

Say no moves happen between now and Feb 15. Walt goes to Cast and says "Look, this team has a pretty good core of young players, but it cannot win the division as constructed. If we have a fire sale right now, we can build a winner that will last a decade."

Considering the depth at SP and the corners, would you support a fire sale? It means getting rid of Harang, Arroyo, BP, and Cordero. Probably say bye to some filler like Kepp and Rhodes as well.

I could almost support that.

durl
12-18-2008, 06:45 PM
I wonder if people will accept another firesale and rebuilding plan.

I really don't think a "firesale" is necessary. I can't say I'd be opposed to making some strategic "burns" here and there but building a team around Bruce and Votto would mean a long process. And I can't help but wonder if fans will wonder why this new rebuild where succeed where other ones didn't.

I'd be open to cutting EE, Keppinger, and Gonzalez if Walt had a plan in place to get some guys who have a better chance of making a big impact.

Starting over would be a little overwhelming, I believe.

Raisor
12-18-2008, 06:50 PM
I wonder if people will accept another firesale and rebuilding plan.

I really don't think a "firesale" is necessary. I can't say I'd be opposed to making some strategic "burns" here and there but building a team around Bruce and Votto would mean a long process. And I can't help but wonder if fans will wonder why this new rebuild where succeed where other ones didn't.

I'd be open to cutting EE, Keppinger, and Gonzalez if Walt had a plan in place to get some guys who have a better chance of making a big impact.

Starting over would be a little overwhelming, I believe.


Exceot the Reds haven't done anything resembling a "firesale". They've picked at it, but haven't pulled the band-aid off.

Benihana
12-18-2008, 07:00 PM
Exceot the Reds haven't done anything resembling a "firesale". They've picked at it, but haven't pulled the band-aid off.

I would call July 2003 a firesale, and the firesale didn't spare the manager or the GM.

klw
12-18-2008, 07:28 PM
If I were to move Harang, I would be reluctant do so before before the season. After last year I think his value is likely down a bit right now. With a good first half, I think he would have tremendous value before the trading deadline. I don't know that I would move him and leave the staff without a veteran starter to help nurture the young arms.

Danny Serafini
12-18-2008, 09:38 PM
I'm tired of trading players away for things that might be useful later. How about playing for now for once, instead of a rolling five year plan that never reaches an end?

Ltlabner
12-18-2008, 10:09 PM
With names like Phillips, Votto, Bruce, Encarnacion, Harrang, Volquez, Cueto, Burton and Cordero on your team you'd *ought* to be able to build a team that sniffs at contention.

If you can't build a winning team with that core a fire-sale isn't the solution. Selling the franchise, moving them to Nashville and converting GABP into a used car lot is.

It's not an easy task certainly, but someone with The Jocks pedigree could have a lot less to work with. Maybe it takes some more $$$. Maybe it takes some creative and risky moves that ultimately don't pan out. But it's not like we've got a field full of total stiffs.

And if you do the fire-sale now, you aren't going to get enough in return to restock the pond. You just end up with another mish-mash of talent and in 5 years someone else will call for another fire-sale.

nate
12-18-2008, 10:19 PM
If you can't build a winning team with that core a fire-sale isn't the solution. Selling the franchise, moving them to Nashville and converting GABP into a used car lot is.

Cool!

Ltlabner
12-18-2008, 10:20 PM
Cool!

Just think of how often you could go watch Willy T patrolling centerfield...in person!

remdog
12-18-2008, 10:25 PM
This from M2 in another thread got me thinking...



Considering the depth at SP and the corners, would you support a fire sale? It means getting rid of Harang, Arroyo, BP, and Cordero. Probably say bye to some filler like Kepp and Rhodes as well.

I've never been unwilling to trade Phillips, Arroyo, Cordero and a number of other players on the team. I wouldn't be tradeing them in a 'firesale mode' however. I'd want value at the big league level and try to reshap my team that way.

Rem

OnBaseMachine
12-18-2008, 10:27 PM
I have no interest in a firesale. The Reds have a good mixture of young talent at the major league level (Bruce, Cueto, Volquez, Votto, Encarnacion, Phillips, Dickerson, Burton, Owings) along with some solid vets (Harang, Arroyo, Cordero) and near major league ready talent (Alonso, Frazier, Valaika, Roenicke, Fisher, Maloney). A couple good moves by Jocketty makes this team a contender for quite awhile, IMO.

Redhook
12-18-2008, 10:41 PM
I have no interest in a firesale. The Reds have a good mixture of young talent at the major league level (Bruce, Cueto, Volquez, Votto, Encarnacion, Phillips, Dickerson, Burton, Owings) along with some solid vets (Harang, Arroyo, Cordero) and near major league ready talent (Alonso, Frazier, Valaika, Roenicke, Fisher, Maloney). A couple good moves by Jocketty makes this team a contender for quite awhile, IMO.

Exactly.

For the first time in awhile this team actually has some pitching. Real pitching. Not the I hope I catch lightning in a bottle Pete Harnisch, Pete Shoureck, Paul Wilson pitching. Real pitching. It's not the best staff in the world, but it is pretty damn good for a change.

Plus, Votto, Bruce, and Phillips make up a nice core offensively. The Reds are a couple of Jocketty moves from being a contender for a while, including this year.

HokieRed
12-18-2008, 10:48 PM
I agree almost 100% with OBM except I think this is particularly the time when we have to have extreme patience. The rotation is not experienced enough, IMO, to be a contending group in 2009, but by 2010 it could be. We've got to get Harang back to consistency, Arroyo needs to show himself capable of giving 200 solid innings, Volquez and Cueto have to work through the problems of young starters, and we need to solidify #5. That's the agenda for this year. By late this season we could be very good. Most important thing to do now is to do nothing that will diminish the team's chances in 2010 and beyond.

REDREAD
12-19-2008, 01:03 AM
I'd rather roll the dice that Walt is going to be able to keep the core together and eventually upgrade the position players. History shown he has the skill to build a potent lineup. He just needs some time. Hernandez is a respectable start. Going after Dye was the right thinking, as was the rumored Burton-Crisp trade offer. Eventually Walt is going to close the deal on a few trades like that.

Jpup
12-19-2008, 01:55 AM
moving them to Nashville

:thumbup:

Strikes Out Looking
12-19-2008, 09:06 AM
Just say no to a firesale. Except for the Marlins, no one else has pulled that off--The Rays built for years to become a winner. The Pirates annually have a fire sale and they are behind the Reds in talent and the standings on a yearly basis.

bucksfan2
12-19-2008, 10:12 AM
Just say no to a firesale. Except for the Marlins, no one else has pulled that off--The Rays built for years to become a winner. The Pirates annually have a fire sale and they are behind the Reds in talent and the standings on a yearly basis.

I was going to ask something along these lines. With the exception of the Marlins no team has replaced a fire sale with equal talent. Even the A's haven't been able to replicate their success from the early 2000's.

The model the Reds should follow is the Twins. The Twins have been able to lock in long term their key players while continue to build a deep farm system. With Morneau and Mauer the Twins have a very good core to build around. I think you need set a ceiling contractually for each individual player. A number that you are willing to pay but go no higher. If any player gets above that figure you move him for a return.