Devin Mesoraco ... catcher?

[M2]

Here's the latest BA prospects blog (http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/prospects/?p=1724) where it rates the throwing arms of catchers in its prospects guide (qualifications are they had to play in a full season league, face at least 50 SB attempts and be in a team's top 30 prospects).

Mesoraco ranked 54th (next to last) with a 17.4 CS%.

He also made the comments section of the piece:

Devin Mesoraco: Little went right for the Reds’ 2007 first-round pick. The low Class A Midwest League isn’t kind to hitters, but scouts who saw Mesoraco came away disappointed in his conditioning. Though he did show some power, his offensive performance with Dayton was fairly pedestrian. He wasn’t much better defensively, struggling to throw out runners and committing 15 passed balls in 72 games. Mesoraco also battled through injuries to both of his thumbs, so he’ll get a chance to regroup in 2009, but it was not an auspicious debut.

It would seem to me the first question that needs to be answered is whether this kid has a future behind the plate.

[morande]

I have yet to see the kid play yet, and this is going to sound crazy but when I saw him at reds fest I didn't see a player in him. I really like Justin Tordi I saw him play in college at UF and he looked legit

[dougdirt]

Mesoraco is a catcher in progress. He has the tools, he just needs to hone them in. He made some good progress as the season went along in all defensive facets of the game.

[ochre]

Thumb problems are catcher kryptonite.

[RedsManRick]

Pretty sad when you take a guy in the first round of the draft and there's absolutely nothing notable about his skill set out of the gate. Doug, could you expound on your comment about his tools? What tools does the kid possess that couldn't be said about other catchers in our system?

[lollipopcurve]

this is going to sound crazy but when I saw him at reds fest I didn't see a player in him.

Can you explain what you mean by this?

I tend to trust what redsof72 has said about Mesoraco: solid stick, long way to go defensively, shaky confidence. They need to slow down with him, and he's going to have to have some very good coaching.

[dougdirt]

Pretty sad when you take a guy in the first round of the draft and there's absolutely nothing notable about his skill set out of the gate. Doug, could you expound on your comment about his tools? What tools does the kid possess that couldn't be said about other catchers in our system?
He has a real strong arm (but needs to work on going from the catch to the throw), is athletic behind the plate and has good hitting tools. His bat is the best in the system as far as catchers go, and his arm and athleticism are toward the top as well. He just needs refinement like most catchers a year out of high school. Unlike other catchers in the system with tools, he has a full set of them, even though he doesn't use them all currently. Add in that he is going to be 20 for most of next season and he has plenty of time to get them from tools to skills.

[JayBruceFan]

His arm is decent

Catch and throw skills are horrible

Footwork is bad as well

[redhawk61]

I saw a game at the beginning of the year and a game near the end, lets just say I saw marked improvement with his defense. He will get there, it will take time, but he will get there, he has the skills. Watching him, just to put an ETA. on when I think his defense will be very good is 2012, he just needs to provide with the bat and everything will take care of itself.

[Red Leader]

I hope the Reds stay patient with this kid. I know there's going to be pressure on them since he's a first round draft pick but he's got a lot of work to do behind the plate. I'm hoping his stick keeps him around. I'm optimistic that his defense will come around but I don't think he'll ever be a run-stopper behind the plate. It's a shame, too, because he does have a good arm. Someone should have been all over this kid since early high school to work on his footwork, mechanics and transfer. It doesn't appear that happened.

[M2]

I tend to trust what redsof72 has said about Mesoraco: solid stick, long way to go defensively, shaky confidence.

I'd say his stick becomes deficient the second you consider him having to play anywhere other than catcher. No one's confusing his offense with young Joey Votto, who had bat enough to move away from catcher to first base.

[OnBaseMachine]

I saw Mesoraco at Redsfest... he's in good shape IMO. I don't know what the heck that scout was talking about when he said Mesoraco was pudgy or out of shape. I was a little disappointed with his numbers this year but I haven't lost hope yet. I'd start him back in Dayton and let him work on some things.

[Mario-Rijo]

I saw Mesoraco at Redsfest and he's in very good shape. I don't know what the heck that scout was talking about when he said Mesoraco was pudgy or out of shape.

His extra BP work might have been showing up in his play, he may have looked sloth like. Otherwise I can't figure it out either.

Bottom line with Mes is it's too soon to be concerned about him right now. And for the record if he starts anywhere above Dayton in '09 it might be the worst thing possible for him.

[M2]

Bottom line with Mes is it's too soon to be concerned about him right now. And for the record if he starts anywhere above Dayton in '09 it might be the worst thing possible for him.

I'd say it's well-past time to be concerned about him. It's too soon to assume that he won't turn things around, but he merits plenty of concern.

I agree completely with the second sentence, but that's because I am concerned about this kid. IMO, the Reds can't afford to act like nothing's amiss with Mesoraco. They need to put on the brakes and find him a level of play where he can thrive.

[15fan]

His bat is the best in the system as far as catchers go, and his arm and athleticism are toward the top as well.

Is there another bar in the system that's set lower than the bar appears to be at catcher?

Edit: If he's got a decent arm, then maybe he'd be better served trying the other end of the battery?

[M2]

Is there another bar in the system that's set lower than the bar appears to be at catcher?

It's a bit like being able to bench press the most weight in the entire 2nd grade. I was clamoring for better catcher options in the minors back in October for this very reason. The best the Reds have got behind the plate has been a disappointment so far. That ought to be a red flag.

[Mario-Rijo]

I'd say it's well-past time to be concerned about him. It's too soon to assume that he won't turn things around, but he merits plenty of concern.

I agree completely with the second sentence, but that's because I am concerned about this kid. IMO, the Reds can't afford to act like nothing's amiss with Mesoraco. They need to put on the brakes and find him a level of play where he can thrive.

Beyond the fact that his draft position will cause some to jump the gun both ways on him if you look at the rest of the picture I don't really get the alarm.

What I see is a high school catcher who comes out & played in 40 games in the GCL and with well documented injuries to both thumbs, so right there I ain't expecting much for this kid right away. Then the next season instead of giving him the next eventual level (Billings) they go ahead push him to Low A at 19 years old. Now maybe I am just being nieve but a 19 yr old catcher with limited pro games under his belt plays Low A ball and is supposed to play better than he did? Maybe that's true but I'm not really sure how.

I went through all the Catchers for that league and found 2 kids who were comparable in both age and experience and who played comparable innings. Jose Felix for Clinton who was a little better defensively, a lot worse offensively but was pretty comparable overall. Same with Angel De Los Santos of Cedar Rapids. They both did have a better overall defensive showing but not so much so that you can take anything from it and neither hit like him Felix was closer but was .100 pts. shy on Slg%. After next year if he hasn't jumped leaps and bounds assuming he at least gets to start where he's familiar (Dayton) then I will start to worry.

[KoryMac5]

I think the kid needs to play more baseball at a higher level. I wonder what homework the Reds gave him after the season was over. He could stand to play some winter baseball.

[11larkin11]

I think the kid needs to play more baseball at a higher level. I wonder what homework the Reds gave him after the season was over. He could stand to play some winter baseball.

get healthy

[757690]

I saw Mesoraco play many times for the Dragons and while he didn't look like Jay Bruce out there, he clearly stood out from the rest of the team along with Soto. My uncle, who is not a big baseball fan, picked the two of them out as the best players on the team after watching just two games, and he had no idea who they were before he saw them.

What impressed me the most about Mesoraco were his baseball "instincts." I hate to use that term, because I know that they are the result of a lot of hard work and studying the game, and not actual instincts, however, he had them. He messed up the play sometimes, well more than sometimes, with his execution, but he always quick to know where to be, where to throw the ball, etc. on every play, which is more that I can say for nearly every other Dragon. In fact, he seemed like a true captain, yelling at other players where to go, or where not to go on many plays.

I saw nothing special with his bat, but I did see how he could become a strong defensive catcher once he matures and develops his skills more.

[Scrap Irony]

Hand-wringing, IMO.

Is Mesoraco a sure thing? Hardly. But he's probably going to play in the major leagues as either a back-up or a starter at the most difficult position to adequately fill in the game. Does that merit a Top 15 pick? I don't think so, but the Reds certainly did.

Perhaps they get lucky and he pans out. Perhaps they draft over him this season.

[redsof72]

While I do respect the thought, effort, and professionalism that Doug puts into everything he posts, he and I disagree on Mesoraco's arm strength and raw tools. Jason Bour, the backup catcher on the Dayton team, clearly had a stronger arm, and Bour's arm strength would be rated by most as average. I do agree that many of Mesoraco's throwing problems relate to poor footwork. But I would go a step further. His poor foot work is a product of the difficulties he has in receiving the pitch. But in terms of just pure arm strength, this is not a plus tool for him in my opinion.

I do not think the conditioning element is much of a factor. The thumb might have been a problem. I asked him about this directly and he played down the thumb issue, but it sounded more like he just did want to make excuses. I would think the extrememly high number of times that the bat slips out of his hand on his swing could be tied to pain in the thumb as it always flies out at the exact same point (toward the third base on-deck circle) and that might be when the greatest pressure is on the thumb. If you have seen Mesoraco play more than a couple of games, you have probably seen what I am talking about.

Lollipopcurve, I might have given the wrong impression on something. I do not think Mesoraco necessarily has shaky confidence. I just think putting him at a level where he can have success would be a big boost, based on the fact that he hears all this stuff about how he was a bad draft pick and for a 20-year-old, that has to take a toll.

My summary opinion on Mesoraco is that his bat is way ahead of his defense, that I am not ready to give up on him totally, but that he is no better prospect than many of the guys on the field--just a young guy with some ability but with a long way to go. To me, he was about the seventh or eighth best prospect on that team.

[redsof72]

As an afterthought, it should be pointed out that while Doug and I disagree, we are not the only ones. There is more disagreement over Mesoraco within the Reds organization than any other player in the whole system. There are people still saying that Mesoraco will be a major league starter, and there are experienced, credible people who are saying that Mesoraco would not even get to Double-A if not for the fact that he is a #1 pick. Some of this is political. If you are someone who put your reputation on the line when you scouted and/or drafted Mesoraco, you are going to be the guy who sees the most upside even though it could be wishful thinking. And who knows? Those people might turn out to be correct.

[M2]

Beyond the fact that his draft position will cause some to jump the gun both ways on him if you look at the rest of the picture I don't really get the alarm.

Catchers who can't catch are problem children, particularly if they don't have big bats. The main thing is the Reds have to stop treating him differently. IMO, it's been the organization jumping the gun on this kid, not us. Slow down his promotion, teach him. There's nothing about Mesoraco that warrants a fast track.

[redsof72]

Good points, M2. But there are a lot of politics in baseball. What is the #1 goal of an elected official? To get re-elected, right? I remember talking to a scout last summer and he said that at the game the night before, he sat right next to Chris Buckley, and he said the whole night, Buckley was singing Mesoraco's praises, and the scout's take on that was that Buckley was probably catching a lot of heat on the Mesoraco pick and that was a defense mechanism. And in the Reds organization, you have a Farm Director who was the previous Scouting Director. And you've got the current Scouting Director who wants to save face and he is telling everyone that Mesoraco is still a great prospect. And other people don't want to rock the boat. One scout once described this as "the king and his clothes," you know, how everyone stands around and says the clothes look great on the king, who actually is not wearing clothes, until one person stands up and says, "I don't see anything."

Suffice to say, it was not a surprise to me that the Reds chose Mesoraco as their Instructional League MVP.

And again, I am trying to give those guys the benefit of the doubt. They are paid to do a job and their success will go a long way toward determining the Reds long term success.

[lollipopcurve]

And in the Reds organization, you have a Farm Director who was the previous Scouting Director. And you've got the current Scouting Director who wants to save face and he is telling everyone that Mesoraco is still a great prospect. And other people don't want to rock the boat.

It would be curious to me if the current scouting department is feeling like its entire rep rests on the Mesoraco pick. They've done a decent job under Buckley. They can sing the praises of high $$$ picks like Frazier, Soto, Alonso and Stewart. Why would they start blowing smoke about Mesoraco, unless he looked really bad (suggesting that the pick was incompetent)? After all, scouting folks can always turn the responsibility over to the development folks. And wouldn't it have been Reynolds and the development department that placed Mesoraco in Dayton? I don't see as how the scouting department would be in CYA mode over that decision...

[redsof72]

No, I agree that the whole rep would not rest on one player, but you do have a new GM who could bring in his own people and it is going to be most important to them that the guy to whom they gave the most money be viewed as a reasonable pick, especially if the kid starts getting criticized brutally and he has to explain. But no, one pick would not get someone fired. But it doesn't have to be that extreme for people to be worrying about covering their butts.

Yes, Reynolds would have the final say on placement with a lot of input from Benevides, all the managers, position coaches, and others.

I remember last April, there were rumors circulating that Mesoraco was so bad as a receiver that in spring training, they could not even use him to catch bullpen sessions. That would have been a pretty strong hit to the guy who drafted him if that had been true. For the record, he caught a ton of bullpens in Dayton.

[M2]

Good points, M2. But there are a lot of politics in baseball. What is the #1 goal of an elected official? To get re-elected, right? I remember talking to a scout last summer and he said that at the game the night before, he sat right next to Chris Buckley, and he said the whole night, Buckley was singing Mesoraco's praises, and the scout's take on that was that Buckley was probably catching a lot of heat on the Mesoraco pick and that was a defense mechanism. And in the Reds organization, you have a Farm Director who was the previous Scouting Director. And you've got the current Scouting Director who wants to save face and he is telling everyone that Mesoraco is still a great prospect. And other people don't want to rock the boat. One scout once described this as "the king and his clothes," you know, how everyone stands around and says the clothes look great on the king, who actually is not wearing clothes, until one person stands up and says, "I don't see anything."

Suffice to say, it was not a surprise to me that the Reds chose Mesoraco as their Instructional League MVP.

And again, I am trying to give those guys the benefit of the doubt. They are paid to do a job and their success will go a long way toward determining the Reds long term success.

I hear you. You can see it even from the outside. The Reds also seem to be more politically driven than most. Perhaps it dates back to when Marge slashed the scouting budget or just a few years earlier when the farm couldn't immediately replace the BRM, but the Reds have made a habit of pushing kids well beyond their limits and ignoring red flags. It's almost like if they act as if nothing's wrong, then everything will be all right. Even though regimes cycle through, the behavior seems to be institutionalized.

You've given voice to what made me start this thread in the first place. BA is saying Mesoraco's not wearing any clothes. Frankly, we should have known that already, but we now have unbiased third party confirmation of it. The Reds need to sit down and start figuring out a better way to bring this kid along. They also need to address the question of whether Mesoraco is another Scott Heard, Ryan Christianson, Ryan Luzinski type.

For the reasons you mentioned, they probably won't, but we can at least be cognizant Mesoraco's star has been severely tarnished.

[Cooper]

They also need to make a decision about his bat -it's very difficult to make it to the mlb while overcoming a huge limitation. It just does not happen unless there is pressure taken off the limitation (i.e. moving the player to another position). He may be able to fix the glove, but it will be at the exspense of the bat.

There's only so much time and resource. Move him to 1st base and move on.

There's a reason catcher's bats are often weak or late to develop- they spend much of their time and resouces learning how to catch and refining their craft on the defensive side of things.

[redsof72]

This will obviously be an important year for Devin. I still like his bat. I think if he goes back to Dayton, he hits .300 with some power. Maybe his defense improves enough to at least not kill you.

Looking at those Baseball America throwing percentages, it reminds me of about 10 years ago when I got to see Ben Davis on a regular basis. The Reds, of course, just signed Ben as a pitcher after a failed major league career as a catcher. Ben spent most of the season up around the 60 percent mark in throwing out runners, but it was even better than that because once his reputation got around, the only guys who would even try to run on him were the absolute best base stealers in the league. And he was still throwing them out at 60 percent. He would totally take away that element of the opposing team's game. I think he finished the year at 57 percent if I remember correctly. Ben, unfortunately, just could not hit major league pitching. It was a shame. Ironically, like Devin, Ben was also a high school kid from Pennsylvania. It would be a great story if Ben made it as a pitcher with the Reds.

[BRM]

It was my understanding that Devin's bat projected well "for a catcher". Moving him to 1B probably makes him a non-prospect. 1B prospects need to mash or else they become organizational fodder.

[lollipopcurve]

we can at least be cognizant Mesoraco's star has been severely tarnished.

In my view, the red flag is defense only. I believe he's behind there.

But, from my perspective, a few caveats re: the heaping helping of doubt being shoveled on this player:

1. As Mario-Rijo aptly pointed out, #1 picks tend to draw overreaction in both directions.

2. I think the fact that he was in his first year out of HS, playing against older competition, has been unappreciated re: his year at the plate. Tough hitters league. In my opinion, he's shown the potential to be a plus bat for a catcher. This is encouraging.

3. I am skeptical about the repeated assertions that he was out of shape (much of this coming from BA). We have some first-hand reports on this board that contradict them, and from the pics I've seen he looks like a beast -- just a big, real strong kid. If in fact the BA assertions are true, it would be, for me, a major blemish on Mesoraco. But if they are not true, one has to call into question BA's take on Mesoraco. Sometimes, a negative report can be passed down -- and embellished -- without verification.

4. Mesoraco was the youngest, richest guy on the Dayton roster. At the beginning of the year, he was sharing a position with two other catchers -- Bour and Long -- both of whom had been teammates with a bunch of other guys on the roster the previous year in Billings. New kid, fat wallet, fast track = target on back. I wonder how much of the negative noise surrounding Mesoraco emanated in one way or another from teammates with an axe to grind.

Just stuff to consider....from afar.

[M2]

It was my understanding that Devin's bat projected well "for a catcher". Moving him to 1B probably makes him a non-prospect. 1B prospects need to mash or else they become organizational fodder.

That's my take too. He's not a Votto or Konerko type of bat. He's also not a Jayson Werth type of athlete. This kid needs to catch.

[M2]

Looking at those Baseball America throwing percentages, it reminds me of about 10 years ago when I got to see Ben Davis on a regular basis. The Reds, of course, just signed Ben as a pitcher after a failed major league career as a catcher. Ben spent most of the season up around the 60 percent mark in throwing out runners, but it was even better than that because once his reputation got around, the only guys who would even try to run on him were the absolute best base stealers in the league. And he was still throwing them out at 60 percent. He would totally take away that element of the opposing team's game. I think he finished the year at 57 percent if I remember correctly. Ben, unfortunately, just could not hit major league pitching. It was a shame. Ironically, like Devin, Ben was also a high school kid from Pennsylvania. It would be a great story if Ben made it as a pitcher with the Reds.

Davis is a reminder of how hard it is to play major league baseball. He had a cannon arm and he hit well in the upper minors at ages 21-23. Everybody thought he was a shoo-in. BA ranked him #10, #59, #49 and #24 in its top 100 prospects in different years. Yet ultimately he failed.

Mesoraco's learning how hard the game is right now and it's probably going to take him five or six more years to put it all together even if he does make it. Baseball's a cruel sport.

[redsof72]

A response to Lollipopcurve's four points:

1) #1 picks tend to draw overreaction in both directions: Absolutely 110 percent agree. Way, way too much put into what round a guy was drafted in.

2) he's shown the potential to be a plus bat : Agree. He held his own against older pitchers.

3) I am skeptical about the repeated assertions that he was out of shape : Agree totally. As I said earlier today, the conditioning angle is a reach at best. I did hear a comment from one scout last summer that he looked like he had put on a pound or two in the back side, but in this day and age, if a minor league player is out of shape, the strength and conditioning staff get after it. That is what they are there for. The Reds had a full-time conditioning coach (not the trainer) with that club and if they thought his conditioning was holding him back, they would have addressed it.

4) teammates with an axe to grind.:
Swing and a miss on that one. Mesoraco was well-liked by his teammates and always will be. He is a blue-collar kid without a trace of arrogance.

In response to the comments that he needs to remain as a catcher, in my humble opinion, that is all beside the point if he can't play the position. If he doesn't improve dramatically behind the plate, he could hit like Mike Piazza in his prime and it won't matter because you can't use him there.

Last thought on this: While I would like to see Mesoraco start in Dayton and personally believe that would be best for him, I would be quite surprised if that happens. I fully expect him to start in Sarasota as long as he stays healthy in spring training.

[lollipopcurve]

4) teammates with an axe to grind.:
Swing and a miss on that one. Mesoraco was well-liked by his teammates and always will be. He is a blue-collar kid without a trace of arrogance.

Good stuff, redsof72. I was hoping to hear something like this.


If he doesn't improve dramatically behind the plate, he could hit like Mike Piazza in his prime and it won't matter because you can't use him there.

Bottom line. Could be the #1 task facing the development people. I wonder if Donnie Scott's leaving the organization had anything to do with Mesoraco's struggles behind the plate.

[redsof72]

I wonder if Donnie Scott's leaving the organization had anything to do with Mesoraco's struggles behind the plate.

No. He showed some improvement. But it was like taking a college student with a 1.2 GPA and saying you need to improve that to 3.6 to play in the majors. He maybe improved it to 1.6. He needs daily defensive work without having to worry about his hitting. That's why I think he should go back to Dayton where he will not have as many slumps at the plate to have to worry about than to go to Sarasota, but I do not expect that to happen.

[OnBaseMachine]

I've said this before: Redsof72, I love having you around here. You provide great insight and I love reading your posts. Keep up the great work. :thumbup:

[TheNext44]

I think Mesoraco kinda suffers from the opposite problem as Stubbs. Everyone knows who was taken after Stubbs, and he will forever be linked to that. Stubbs is a very solid pick, but he will never be as good as the guy taken two picks after him. (I don't want to type his name, since it makes me sick everytime I think about it)
Mesoraco is probably not that great of a prospect, but looking at the draft that year, there really wasn't much on the board after him to make anyone think that he was a bad pick. Maybe Porcello (sp?) of the Tigers, but really it looks like Mesoraco was the best pick at #15 that year, or at least a very justifiable one. He may not end up helpng the Reds that much in the future, but there doesn't seem to be too many players taken after him that would either.

[M2]

I think Mesoraco kinda suffers from the opposite problem as Stubbs. Everyone knows who was taken after Stubbs, and he will forever be linked to that. Stubbs is a very solid pick, but he will never be as good as the guy taken two picks after him. (I don't want to type his name, since it makes me sick everytime I think about it)
Mesoraco is probably not that great of a prospect, but looking at the draft that year, there really wasn't much on the board after him to make anyone think that he was a bad pick. Maybe Porcello (sp?) of the Tigers, but really it looks like Mesoraco was the best pick at #15 that year, or at least a very justifiable one. He may not end up helpng the Reds that much in the future, but there doesn't seem to be too many players taken after him that would either.

While you're right that Mesoraco doesn't have a He Who Shall Not Be Named to plague him by comparison. Porcello, Aaron Poreda, Ben Revere, J.P. Arencibia, Tim Alderson and Michael Main (all taken in the later portion of that first round) are highly rated prospects. Andrew Brackman is too, but I think that's mostly a case of Yankees prospects getting ridiculous benefits of a doubt.

Also, Arencibia, Travis D'Arnaud, Jonathan Lucroy and Derek Norris have surely passed Mesoraco on the catcher prospect charts. I'm pretty sure if they re-staged the 2007 draft, Devin wouldn't be taken in the first round.

That said, it doesn't profile as the greatest of draft classes and since no one taken behind Mesoraco will win the Cy Young next season, Mes won't engender the same kind of buyer's remorse as Stubbs has even if Stubbs turns out to be the better pick of the two.

[Mario-Rijo]

I've said this before: Redsof72, I love having you around here. You provide great insight and I love reading your posts. Keep up the great work. :thumbup:

Ditto, good stuff 72!