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919191
12-20-2008, 08:24 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2008/12/20/sports/AP-BBO-Obit-Ellis.html?_r=1&ref=baseball

919191
12-20-2008, 08:28 AM
http://www.mydamnchannel.com/channel.aspx?episode=814

Scroll down to hear a song about Ellis, his no hitter, and LSD.

Mainspark
12-20-2008, 11:05 AM
From the Baseball Reliquary (whatever that is)...
I remember this incident; it certainly had no bearing on the Reds' failure to win a division title in 1974.

Perhaps Ellis’ most startling act occurred on May 1, 1974, when he tied a major league record by hitting three batters in a row. In spring training that year, Ellis sensed the Pirates had lost the aggressiveness that drove them to three straight division titles from 1970 to 1972. Furthermore, the team now seemed intimidated by Cincinnati’s "Big Red Machine."
"Cincinnati will b------t with us and kick our ass and laugh at us," Ellis said. "They’re the only team that talk about us like a dog."
Ellis single-handedly decided to break the Pirates out of their emotional slump, announcing that "We gonna get down. We gonna do the do. I’m going to hit these m-----------s."
True to his word, in the first inning of the first regular-season game he pitched against the Reds, Ellis hit leadoff batter Pete Rose in the ribs, then plunked Joe Morgan in the kidney, and loaded the bases by hitting Dan Driessen in the back. Tony Perez, batting cleanup, dodged a succession of Ellis’ pitches to walk and force in a run.
The next hitter was Johnny Bench. "I tried to deck him twice," Ellis recalled. "I threw at his jaw, and he moved. I threw at the back of his head, and he moved."
At this point, Pittsburgh manager Danny Murtaugh removed Ellis from the game. But his strategy worked: the Pirates snapped out of their lethargy to win a division title in 1974, while the Reds failed to win their division for the first time in three years.

westofyou
12-20-2008, 11:12 AM
Ellis started the 1971 AS game, he got killed in 3 IP.

http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1971/B07130ALS1971.htm

Bob Borkowski
12-20-2008, 11:23 AM
But his strategy worked: the Pirates snapped out of their lethargy to win a division title in 1974, while the Reds failed to win their division for the first time in three years.

Interesting story, but I am reluctant to believe the above assumptions by the author. I see no connections between the happenings in this one game and the results for the entire season. Pretty far-fetched.

westofyou
12-20-2008, 11:36 AM
Interesting story, but I am reluctant to believe the above assumptions by the author. I see no connections between the happenings in this one game and the results for the entire season. Pretty far-fetched.
This is in the 1975 TSN Baseball Guide, from the Pirates manager Danny Murtaugh (who was ill and not at the game):

"I hear the fight was one of the better ones on a baseball field, there was a change in our club after the fight. No doubt about it. I think the fight helped the Reds, too."

BoydsOfSummer
12-20-2008, 12:30 PM
DOCK ELLIS

GIVEN NAME: Dock Phillip Ellis
BORN: 3/11/1945 Los Angeles, California
BAT: B THROW: R HEIGHT: 6'3" WEIGHT: 205 MLB DEBUT: 6/18/1968

YEAR TEAM AGE W L PCT G GS CG SV GF IP H R ER BB SO ERA RSAA
1968 Pirates 23 6 5 .545 26 10 2 0 5 104 82 35 29 38 52 2.51 5
1969 Pirates 24 11 17 .393 35 33 8 0 0 218.2 206 101 87 76 173 3.58 -5
1970 Pirates 25 13 10 .565 30 30 9 0 0 201.2 194 81 72 87 128 3.21 15
1971 Pirates 26 19 9 .679 31 31 11 0 0 226.2 207 93 77 63 137 3.06 9
1972 Pirates 27 15 7 .682 25 25 4 0 0 163.1 156 60 49 33 96 2.70 14
1973 Pirates 28 12 14 .462 28 28 3 0 0 192 176 86 65 55 122 3.05 7
1974 Pirates 29 12 9 .571 26 26 9 0 0 176.2 163 71 62 41 91 3.16 7
1975 Pirates 30 8 9 .471 27 24 5 0 1 140 163 69 59 43 69 3.79 -4
1976 Yankees 31 17 8 .680 32 32 8 0 0 211.2 195 83 75 76 65 3.19 6
1977 Yankees 32 1 1 .500 3 3 1 0 0 19.2 18 9 4 8 5 1.83 5
A's 32 1 5 .167 7 7 0 0 0 26 35 33 28 14 11 9.69 -17
Rangers 32 10 6 .625 23 22 7 1 1 167.1 158 60 54 42 90 2.90 24
TOTALS 12 12 .500 33 32 8 1 1 213 211 102 86 64 106 3.63 12
1978 Rangers 33 9 7 .563 22 22 3 0 0 141.1 131 81 66 46 45 4.20 -10
1979 Rangers 34 1 5 .167 10 9 0 0 0 46.2 64 34 31 16 10 5.98 -9
Mets 34 3 7 .300 17 14 1 0 3 85 110 60 57 34 41 6.04 -23
Pirates 34 0 0 3 1 0 0 0 7 9 2 2 2 1 2.57 1
TOTALS 4 12 .250 30 24 1 0 3 138.2 183 96 90 52 52 5.84 -31
TOTALS 138 119 .537 345 317 71 1 10 2127.2 2067 958 817 674 1136 3.46 25
LG AVERAGE 118 118 .500 82 3 2127.2 2059 980 868 773 1256 3.67 0

YEAR TEAM HR H/9 BR/9 SO/9 BB/9 SO/BB SHO WP IBB HBP BFP BK NW NL
1968 Pirates 4 7.10 10.47 4.50 3.29 1.37 0 6 4 1 426 1 6 5
1969 Pirates 14 8.48 11.77 7.12 3.13 2.28 2 4 7 4 917 2 13 15
1970 Pirates 9 8.66 12.99 5.71 3.88 1.47 4 3 11 10 863 0 13 10
1971 Pirates 15 8.22 10.80 5.44 2.50 2.17 2 4 5 2 943 0 15 13
1972 Pirates 6 8.60 10.58 5.29 1.82 2.91 1 2 4 3 663 0 14 8
1973 Pirates 7 8.25 11.11 5.72 2.58 2.22 1 3 7 6 803 1 14 12
1974 Pirates 13 8.30 10.75 4.64 2.09 2.22 0 5 5 7 731 1 12 9
1975 Pirates 9 10.48 13.44 4.44 2.76 1.60 2 0 9 3 621 2 8 9
1976 Yankees 14 8.29 11.69 2.76 3.23 0.86 1 4 1 4 886 1 13 12
1977 Yankees 1 8.24 11.90 2.29 3.66 0.63 0 1 0 0 85 1 2 0
A's 5 12.12 17.31 3.81 4.85 0.79 0 1 0 1 128 0 1 5
Rangers 13 8.50 10.76 4.84 2.26 2.14 1 4 1 0 685 0 11 5
TOTALS 19 8.92 11.66 4.48 2.70 1.66 1 6 1 1 898 1 14 10
1978 Rangers 15 8.34 11.40 2.87 2.93 0.98 0 3 0 2 592 0 7 9
1979 Rangers 5 12.34 15.43 1.93 3.09 0.63 0 2 2 0 215 0 2 4
Mets 9 11.65 15.35 4.34 3.60 1.21 0 2 10 1 391 0 3 7
Pirates 1 11.57 14.14 1.29 2.57 0.50 0 1 0 0 29 0 0 0
TOTALS 15 11.88 15.32 3.38 3.38 1.00 0 5 12 1 635 0 5 11
TOTALS 140 8.74 11.78 4.81 2.85 1.69 14 45 66 44 8978 9 134 123
LG AVERAGE 174 8.71 12.18 5.31 3.27 1.62 14 70 85 47 9048 9


Sabermetric Baseball Encyclopedia
New editions are available every October
http://www.baseball-encyclopedia.com

macro
12-20-2008, 01:43 PM
http://www.angelfire.com/mb/markssigningbonus/dockellis.JPG

Here are some fairly strange paintings based on his life...

http://web.mac.com/jaykaplanstudio/Ellis,_D./Contents.html

BoydsOfSummer
12-20-2008, 02:04 PM
Didn't he claim to have pitched whilst tripping on acid?

westofyou
12-20-2008, 02:12 PM
Didn't he claim to have pitched whilst tripping on acid?



Ellis is better-known for several incidents:

* Beaning Reggie Jackson in the face in apparent retaliation for Reggie's monstrous home run off Ellis in the 1971 All-Star game in Detroit.

* No-hitting the San Diego Padres on June 12, 1970 despite being, as he would claim in 1984, under the influence of LSD throughout the course of the game.[1] Ellis had been visiting friends in Los Angeles under the impression he had the day off and was still high when his girlfriend told him he had to pitch a game against the Padres that night. Ellis boarded a shuttle flight to the ballpark and threw a no-hitter despite not being able to feel the ball or clearly see the batter or catcher. Ellis claims catcher Jerry May wore reflective tape on his fingers which helped Ellis to see his target. Ellis walked eight, struck out six, and was aided by excellent fielding plays by second baseman Bill Mazeroski and centerfielder Matty Alou.[2] During the game, Ellis is reported to have commented to his teammates on the bench between innings that he was pitching a no-hitter, despite the superstition that discourages mentioning a no-hitter while it is in progress. Because the no-hitter was the first game of a double header, Ellis was forced to keep track of the pitch count for the night game.[3]

According to Ellis:

I can only remember bits and pieces of the game. I was psyched. I had a feeling of euphoria. I was zeroed in on the (catcher's) glove, but I didn't hit the glove too much. I remember hitting a couple of batters and the bases were loaded two or three times. The ball was small sometimes, the ball was large sometimes, sometimes I saw the catcher, sometimes I didn't. Sometimes I tried to stare the hitter down and throw while I was looking at him. I chewed my gum until it turned to powder. They say I had about three to four fielding chances. I remember diving out of the way of a ball I thought was a line drive. I jumped, but the ball wasn't hit hard and never reached me.[4]

* Attempting to hit every batter in the Cincinnati Reds lineup on May 1, 1974. In an effort to prove a point to teammates, Ellis hit Pete Rose, Joe Morgan, and Dan Driessen in the top of the first. The clean-up batter Tony Perez avoided Ellis' attempts, instead drawing a walk, and after two pitches aimed at the head of Johnny Bench, Ellis was removed from the game by manager Danny Murtaugh. Ellis' box score for the game reads: 0 IP, 0 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 1 BB, 0 K.[5]

* Arguing with and being maced by a Riverfront Stadium security guard on May 5, 1972. The guard claimed Ellis did not identify himself and "made threatening gestures with a closed fist"; Ellis countered that he was showing his World Series ring as evidence of his affiliation with the Pirates.[5]

Ellis went on to play for the New York Mets, New York Yankees, Oakland Athletics, and Texas Rangers, then ended his career back in Pittsburgh. He finished with a lifetime record of 138-119 and an ERA of 3.46.

Ellis collaborated with future U.S. Poet Laureate Donald Hall on a book, Dock Ellis in the Country of Baseball, which was published in 1976. Although Hall knew of the LSD incident, it was not included in the first edition of the book; Ellis was playing for the Yankees when the book was published, and Hall worried that George Steinbrenner would react negatively to such an admission.[citation needed]

Dock Ellis retired to Victorville, California and a career as a drug counselor.[6] He was diagnosed with cirrhosis of the liver in 2007 and was on the list for a transplant at the time of his death.[7] ESPN reported on December 19, 2008, that Ellis had died at his California home due to "a liver ailment." [8]

919191
12-20-2008, 05:00 PM
Didn't he claim to have pitched whilst tripping on acid?

That's the subject of the song in my previous post.

BoydsOfSummer
12-20-2008, 09:14 PM
Some good stuff there 919191. I particularly enjoyed the Lori McKenna and the Guy Clark.

George Anderson
12-20-2008, 11:09 PM
"Cincinnati will b------t with us and kick our ass and laugh at us," Ellis said. "They’re the only team that talk about us like a dog."


I have a hard time believing this quote. The BRM from everything I know and read about them were a very classy bunch.

Always Red
12-20-2008, 11:35 PM
I have a hard time believing this quote. The BRM from everything I know and read about them were a very classy bunch.

Oh, I believe every word of it. They were good, they had supreme confidence, and they didn't take crap from anyone.

In other words, the BRM was not a bunch of nice guys, not Casper Milquetoasts.

George Anderson
12-20-2008, 11:54 PM
Oh, I believe every word of it. They were good, they had supreme confidence, and they didn't take crap from anyone.

In other words, the BRM was not a bunch of nice guys, not Casper Milquetoasts.

The quote Ellis made in regards to the BRM gave me the impression that he regarded the BRM in the same light as say the Detroit Pistons of the late 80's. which were far from a classy bunch.

No doubt the BRM had confidence and a large share of arrogance but I just can't see other than from maybe Pete, the trash talking coming from them. For the most part they were a pretty professional bunch.

Mainspark
12-21-2008, 01:56 AM
The Reds of the 70s were by no means the Detroit Pistons of their day, but they did carry themselves with a level of self-confidence that, while appreciated by their fans (including me), likely angered the supporters (and perhaps the players) of teams like the Pirates, who lost three league championship playoffs to the Reds between 1970 and 1975.
My friends who followed other, less successful teams, such as the Pirates and Red Sox, did consider "my" Reds to be arrogant.
Pete Rose, in particular, was booed heartily in virtually every park other than Riverfront Stadium in those days. (His popularity elsewhere would grow as he pursued the hit record the following decade.)
I don't think trash talking was at play here, but I recall accounts of the Reds (specifically Rose) trading good-natured, pre-game insults with members of contending teams like the Dodgers and Phillies.
Nothing approaching Dennis Rodman-type behavior, but then again a bit more edgy than Sean Casey-era hugging, as well.

George Anderson
12-21-2008, 11:41 AM
The Reds of the 70s were by no means the Detroit Pistons of their day, but they did carry themselves with a level of self-confidence that, while appreciated by their fans (including me), likely angered the supporters (and perhaps the players) of teams like the Pirates, who lost three league championship playoffs to the Reds between 1970 and 1975.
My friends who followed other, less successful teams, such as the Pirates and Red Sox, did consider "my" Reds to be arrogant.
Pete Rose, in particular, was booed heartily in virtually every park other than Riverfront Stadium in those days. (His popularity elsewhere would grow as he pursued the hit record the following decade.)
I don't think trash talking was at play here, but I recall accounts of the Reds (specifically Rose) trading good-natured, pre-game insults with members of contending teams like the Dodgers and Phillies.
Nothing approaching Dennis Rodman-type behavior, but then again a bit more edgy than Sean Casey-era hugging, as well.


No doubt the BRM was arrogant. Rose and Bench alone had enough arrogance to make up for most teams. I don't see this team as being a team of trash talkers either simply because for the most part they didnt have that type of personality. Foster, Geronimo and Griffey were three very laid back, easy going quiet individuals. Perez and Concepcion while not easy going or quiet were not of the type to be trash talkers either. Bench and Morgan both came across as cocky but I haven't read anything to give me the impression they were trash talkers. Pete on the other hand I could see being a bit of a trash talker. That leaves the pitching staff and other than maybe Borbon (who had horrible english so who could understand him?) I don't see anyone on that staff being a trash talker. Gullett, Billingham,Nolan, Norman, Eastwick, Zachry and the rest just really came across as low key professional type guys.

cumberlandreds
12-22-2008, 01:40 PM
Trash talking was not in vogue in the 70's unless you were Mahammed Ali. The BRM was an arrogant and brash bunch. And I'm sure they did some of their own trash talking for their time when they met up with the Dodgers,Pirates and Phillies. But publicly trash talking they did not. They knew they were the best and assumed everyone else knew it too.

ochre
12-22-2008, 05:02 PM
This sounds a bit Detroit'ish:

The impact of Rose's cross-body block left Fosse with a fractured bone in his shoulder. But the shoulder was so swollen that night, X-rays taken at a Cincinnati hospital did not reveal the damage. So Fosse kept playing.

As his career moved along, Fosse remained linked with Rose. If anything, the link grew stronger as Rose went on to become baseball's all- time hits leader.

Still, the two men seldom speak. Fosse recalls only three conversations with Rose since 1970 -- once the next year at spring training, once in 1980 at a function in San Francisco and once in '88, when they appeared together on an ESPN All-Star preview show in Cincinnati.

The producers of Rose's radio show occasionally ask Fosse to appear on the show, but he always declines. The play itself does not bother Fosse as much as some of Rose's subsequent comments.

``Probably the thing that was most upsetting is he was quoted as saying (a few years later) that he did it intentionally,'' Fosse says. ``I would like to think it just happened, it was a clean, aggressive play. The quote was basically, `If I didn't hit him the way I did, I couldn't talk to my father afterward.'

``When I initially saw the replay, I thought he was going to slide. Then I read where he said he did it on purpose. I don't know.''
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1999/07/10/SP51494.DTL

George Anderson
12-22-2008, 07:10 PM
This sounds a bit Detroit'ish:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1999/07/10/SP51494.DTL

This play is famous from the fact it was played in front of a national audience. Had it happened in a regular season game we never would have heard about it. I am not a Pete Rose Kool Aid drinker but i have never had a problem with what he did, he did nothing illegal but was simply playing hard.

This play also gets alot of publicity for having ended Fosse's career but I think Fosse's doctors share some of the blame for the demise of his career . It sounds to me they underdiagnosed his injury and played a big part in Fosse never playing at the AS level again.

If you want to look for thugish behavior on behalf of Rose I would be more inclined to look at the Harrelson incident in the 73' playoffs. Replays show Pete pretty much started that scuffle. Regardless neither incident IMO compares to the idiocy we experienced from Dennis Rodman, Rick Mahorn, John Salley and the rest of the Detroit "Bad Boys".

Mainspark
12-22-2008, 09:14 PM
If I'm not mistaken, the day after the Rose-Harrelson scuffle in the 1973 playoffs, Rose hit an extra-inning home run and circled the bases in Shea Stadium with his right fist in the air.

As for Fosse, the All Star Game collision didn't do him any good, but it really didn't end his career.
He played eight more seasons, and in 1971, the year after the collision, he hit .276 with 12 homers and 63 RBI, not bad offensive numbers for a catcher by early 1970s standards.

Bob Borkowski
12-22-2008, 09:24 PM
If you want to look for thugish behavior on behalf of Rose I would be more inclined to look at the Harrelson incident in the 73' playoffs. Replays show Pete pretty much started that scuffle.

I agree with those who feel that Rose did indeed 'start that scuffle' in order to wake up the Reds. They had been playing like a bunch of zombies in that playoff series.

westofyou
12-22-2008, 09:38 PM
If I'm not mistaken, the day after the Rose-Harrelson scuffle in the 1973 playoffs, Rose hit an extra-inning home run and circled the bases in Shea Stadium with his right fist in the air.


Yep and during the game the LF Rose was showered with beer by the Mets faithful, Rose writes in his book "Charlie Hustle" " Our owners were assaulted, driven out of their box seats by the crowd.



As for Fosse, the All Star Game collision didn't do him any good, but it really didn't end his career. He played eight more seasons, and in 1971, the year after the collision, he hit .276 with 12 homers and 63 RBI, not bad offensive numbers for a catcher by early 1970s standards.

Fosse was later traded to the A's for Dave Duncan and did a credible job in 1973 and then became a strict platoon guy,

Ray Fosse was never going to be Bench,but since he was north of JB and had a good 1970 season the press played it up. Ray had limited power until 1970 and couldn't take a walk very well but in the California league and AAA he did show that he could hit for average, he was a good young receiver on a team that had been carrying Duke Sims and Joe Azcue as the main guys and that and JB and the Ohio area AS Game plus Rose makes it a baseball legend that his career was ruined then.

remdog
12-22-2008, 11:43 PM
This play is famous from the fact it was played in front of a national audience. Had it happened in a regular season game we never would have heard about it. I am not a Pete Rose Kool Aid drinker but i have never had a problem with what he did, he did nothing illegal but was simply playing hard.

I agree. Some thing that everyone ignores is that this was an exhibition game yet, as much as the play injured Fosse, it could have easily gone the other way and Pete would have never become 'The Hit King'. It was just the way Pete played.

Rem

Big Klu
12-23-2008, 04:20 PM
I live in an area that has a lot of Indians fans, and they always rail against Pete Rose for ruining Ray Fosse's career. The are always saying things like, "It was just an exhibition game, and that was unnecessary and dirty in an exhibition!" My response to that is, "Well, if it was just an exhibition, then why the hell was your man Fosse blocking the plate?!"

RedsBaron
12-23-2008, 07:28 PM
I live in an area that has a lot of Indians fans, and they always rail against Pete Rose for ruining Ray Fosse's career. The are always saying things like, "It was just an exhibition game, and that was unnecessary and dirty in an exhibition!" My response to that is, "Well, if it was just an exhibition, then why the hell was your man Fosse blocking the plate?!"

Bingo! Fosse was blocking the plate, without having the ball. It is a shame Fosse was injured, but he chose to block the plate. Rose was arrogant and a brash boastful talker, but that was not a dirty play on Rose's part.

RedsBaron
12-23-2008, 07:35 PM
I don't have a link to support this, but I can recall Dock Ellis accusing Sparky Anderson of being a racist in 1971. As the All Star game approached, it was obvious that Vida Blue, who was off to a spectacular start in his first full season, would be the starting pitcher for the AL. Ellis then proclaimed that Sparky, the NL manager, would not pick him to start for the NL because Sparky supposedly didn't want two "brothers" to have the honor of being the All Star game starting pitchers.
I'm sorry to learn of the death of Ellis, but I always rooted against him after his slander of Sparky.

Mainspark
12-24-2008, 05:13 PM
For whatever it's worth, in what was by far Ellis' most important game against the Big Red Machine following the beaning incident, he was shelled.
He started Game 3 of the 1976 World Series for the Yankees, and left in the fourth inning down 4-0, thanks in part to a homer by one of the 1974 beaning victims, Dan Driessen.

westofyou
12-24-2008, 07:13 PM
I don't have a link to support this, but I can recall Dock Ellis accusing Sparky Anderson of being a racist in 1971. As the All Star game approached, it was obvious that Vida Blue, who was off to a spectacular start in his first full season, would be the starting pitcher for the AL. Ellis then proclaimed that Sparky, the NL manager, would not pick him to start for the NL because Sparky supposedly didn't want two "brothers" to have the honor of being the All Star game starting pitchers.
I'm sorry to learn of the death of Ellis, but I always rooted against him after his slander of Sparky.

This was in TSN in early July of that year.

http://baseballminutia.com/images/doc2.gif

I was at that game, and that HR of him by Reggie is still the hardest hit ball I've ever seen in my life, it was amazing.

Bob Borkowski
12-24-2008, 08:18 PM
I don't have a link to support this, but I can recall Dock Ellis accusing Sparky Anderson of being a racist in 1971. As the All Star game approached, it was obvious that Vida Blue, who was off to a spectacular start in his first full season, would be the starting pitcher for the AL. Ellis then proclaimed that Sparky, the NL manager, would not pick him to start for the NL because Sparky supposedly didn't want two "brothers" to have the honor of being the All Star game starting pitchers.
I'm sorry to learn of the death of Ellis, but I always rooted against him after his slander of Sparky.

The quote is in this NY Times obit, RB. Also, there are a couple of other unusual items in it...being Maced and using hair curlers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/sports/baseball/21ellis.html?_r=1&sq=dock%20ellis&st=cse&scp=1&pagewanted=print