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View Full Version : Are we seriously considering trading Votto?



BUTLER REDSFAN
12-21-2008, 11:42 PM
From MLB.com...

The Angels' outfield is one area where the club appears set after signing Juan Rivera to a three-year contract. They have Rivera, Torii Hunter and Vladimir Guerrero, left to right, with Gary Matthews Jr. and Reggie Willits in support.

But Ramirez, who has drawn lukewarm interest thus far on the market, still could make sense as a left fielder and designated hitter if the Angels choose to jump back into more negotiations with Boras.

A more likely free-agent target appears to be Adam Dunn, who could fit between Vladimir Guerrero and Torii Hunter in the lineup as the regular DH and part-time left fielder and first baseman. Dunn, with the power to make any park look small, has averaged 41 homers and 100 RBIs the past five seasons.

Pat Burrell is another big bat in free agency, and two White Sox veterans -- Paul Konerko and Jermaine Dye -- have been mentioned as possible trade targets along with the Reds' Joey Votto

BEETTLEBUG
12-21-2008, 11:52 PM
I hope not.

BLEEDS
12-22-2008, 12:05 AM
Votto would be a bad player to trade - unless we could net 2-3 players in return.

There has been the rumored "3 way deal" with the Angels and the White Sox from Gammons - where we'd end up with Dye:
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73233

But it is assumed we would have to get a MLB ready SS to even consider it.

Given that he's about the only consistent hitter currently on our roster, you have to wonder what the logic is - unless it's "Improve Dramatically at 2-3 other Positions", which means we'd have to be blown away.

Given that the majority of the FO was so worried about Votto's ability to translate to the Majors - even after his 2007 call-up - that they kept Hatteberg around for so long, you might wonder if they see his 2008 ROY runner-up and TORRID end to 2008 as the perfect time to "Sell High" on a guy they Still view as a AAAA guy in the back of their minds.
Not that I agree with that, but it could be part of it.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

redsfandan
12-22-2008, 12:20 AM
Sounds like just made up rumors to me. I mean never say never but I kinda doubt they'd trade Votto when Alonso still doesn't have much experience yet. If they thought Alonso was ready they could've just planned to move Votto to left and used the money they have to make a run at Furcal. But that doesn't seem likely now since Furcal is back in LA. So until there's more of a source than Gammons I think I'll take this with a grain of salt.

WildcatFan
12-22-2008, 12:39 AM
Peter Gammons hasn't been a reliable trade rumor source for a couple of years now. Votto has already been tagged untouchable, so I wouldn't read too much into that rumor. Walt's had too much success in the past to pull a move like this.

Orodle
12-22-2008, 01:09 AM
Peter Gammons has never been a reliable trade source.....his job is simply to keep baseball fans entertained with the "thought".

Griffey012
12-22-2008, 04:03 AM
I hope not, while Jay Bruce has drawn the Larry Walker comparisions, Votto is really the guy at the plate who should be getting the Larry Walker comparisions...and walker was one darn good hitter.

chettt
12-22-2008, 09:51 AM
When I see Votto, he doesn't remind be of Larry Walker. He reminds be of Don Mattingly. Still, a very good player.

Old NDN
12-22-2008, 10:14 AM
Gammons must be getting his info from Hal McCoy. It should take a LOT more than Dye to get Votto.

ChatterRed
12-22-2008, 10:26 AM
If they trade Votto, I'm done with the Reds. If they trade Cueto, I'm done with the Reds.

The league has scouted and seen Votto for 1.25 seasons. They have adjusted and so has he. It wouldn't surprise me to see Joey end up being better than Bruce. Bruce has less plate discipline than Joey.

Cueto has more upside than any of our starting pitchers. And he's only 22.

CarolinaRedleg
12-22-2008, 11:00 AM
This time of year (or any other), believe half of what you see and none of what you hear.

Newman4
12-22-2008, 12:10 PM
I would consider Votto only in a hypothetical situation where it netted someone like Jake Peavy. From an organizational standpoint, you have Alonzo at 1B and also there have been mentions of moving EE there. Thus, Votto is expendable from a positional standpoint. However, I disagree with the notions of him being "AAAA" or less than above average. I would compare his game to Sean Casey during his lone "good year"

RED VAN HOT
12-22-2008, 04:17 PM
Perhaps I have become super sensitive to big market bias in the media. Still, it seems to me that the national media almost see the small market teams as farm teams for the large market teams. The Angels need a first baseman if they don't retain Teixeira. There's one in Cincinnati. What would it take to get him? Give them Dye, that would make them happy. Clearly, there is no consideration of what WJ is doing to build a winner in Cincinnati. Are we living from hand to mouth? The very idea that the Reds would give up a Votto for Dye is insulting.

Assuming he maintains his current production, there are three possible courses for Votto's Cincinnati career. The Reds can sign him early to a longer term contract that is affordable for the Reds while providing Votto with star money without having to wait for arbitration or FA. The Reds can wait until Votto is a year away from a big payday and trade him for a boat load of prospects. The Reds can take their chances in retaining him in free agency.

In any event now is certainly not the time to pull the trigger. There are too many question marks in the remainder of the organization. At least see how Alonso progresses and how the outfield situation looks before making a decision. We have talent moving to AAA and AA this year. IMO, the situation will take two years to completely shake out. Then, the Reds will be in a good position to entertain offers two years from now. Until then, it would be insane to consider trading him.

redhawk61
12-22-2008, 05:38 PM
All I have to say to WJ is at least let me see 1 year of Bruce, Votto, Alonso, and Frazier in the same lineup.(cause after you won't want to move any of them) Those 4 in 2010, are going to be the most devastating middle of the order in baseball.

Ghosts of 1990
12-22-2008, 06:11 PM
I remember how high everyone was on Sean Casey including me. Look how he turned out, a serviceable big league bat but nothing special at first base. He was even better at 1B defensively then votto (who is nothing like larry walker).

If the Reds trade Bruce or Cueto I'm jumping ship for good on the franchise; but if they get something good for Votto I'd be willing to move him. I think in a few years when he's in his prime around 28 or so he'll be a dime a dozen player just like Sean Casey ended up.

Bip Roberts
12-22-2008, 06:16 PM
Votto is pretty much the Reds best player right now, and after a rookie season in one of the better 1st basemen in the majors

Griffey012
12-22-2008, 07:01 PM
I remember how high everyone was on Sean Casey including me. Look how he turned out, a serviceable big league bat but nothing special at first base. He was even better at 1B defensively then votto (who is nothing like larry walker).

If the Reds trade Bruce or Cueto I'm jumping ship for good on the franchise; but if they get something good for Votto I'd be willing to move him. I think in a few years when he's in his prime around 28 or so he'll be a dime a dozen player just like Sean Casey ended up.

Sean Casey always lacked athletic ability which Joey Votto has. Casey was not just a serviceable first baseman during his tenure with the Reds. Not great, but definitely good. Putting up 15-20 hr's while batting 310+ with a .370ish OBP is pretty good.

At the plate I don't see where Votto projects to be that much different than Walker. Obviously Walker stole more bases than Votto will, but both are more than capable of some steals. They both have 25-30 hr power and around 100rbi's Both are disciplined hitters who don't strike out a ton and walk their fair share. And both guys are more gap hitters than straight home run hitters.

redhawk61
12-22-2008, 08:14 PM
I remember how high everyone was on Sean Casey including me. Look how he turned out, a serviceable big league bat but nothing special at first base. He was even better at 1B defensively then votto (who is nothing like larry walker).

If the Reds trade Bruce or Cueto I'm jumping ship for good on the franchise; but if they get something good for Votto I'd be willing to move him. I think in a few years when he's in his prime around 28 or so he'll be a dime a dozen player just like Sean Casey ended up.
Joey isn't even in his prime and he is one of the better hitters in the NL, so when he is in his prime, he is going to be FAR FAR GREATER than a dime-a-dozen player.

ChatterRed
12-23-2008, 02:00 AM
I remember how high everyone was on Sean Casey including me. Look how he turned out, a serviceable big league bat but nothing special at first base. He was even better at 1B defensively then votto (who is nothing like larry walker).

If the Reds trade Bruce or Cueto I'm jumping ship for good on the franchise; but if they get something good for Votto I'd be willing to move him. I think in a few years when he's in his prime around 28 or so he'll be a dime a dozen player just like Sean Casey ended up.

:thumbdown

Uh......you're way in the minority on Votto. But your name says it all. Many are beginning to think that Bruce is the one who will be a dime a dozen. Bruce could very easily be the next Sean Casey.

Ghosts of 1990
12-23-2008, 05:36 AM
:thumbdown

Uh......you're way in the minority on Votto. But your name says it all. Many are beginning to think that Bruce is the one who will be a dime a dozen. Bruce could very easily be the next Sean Casey.

Votto is 25.

Bruce is 21.

Until the final few weeks of the season, their production was similar, only Votto got major league experience in 2007, Bruce did not. Votto's final few weeks of the season helped him to pull ahead of Bruce production wise, but he still did not by much.

I don't think I'm in the minority. If you ask scouts and those around the majors whose stock is higher, it is Jay Bruce's. Votto is a nice complementary player but he won't ever carry this team. There is a reason that the Reds would possibly part with Votto but not Bruce at this time.

goreds2
12-23-2008, 06:15 AM
We finally have a first baseman since Tony Perez that will put up some homeruns each season. DO NOT TRADE Votto!

(Dan Driessen, Pete Rose, Hal Morris, Sean Casey.....)

BLEEDS
12-23-2008, 11:35 AM
I didn't want Votto traded either - for the same reasoning of "we haven't had a decent power/average/OPS guy at 1B since Casey" - but then we drafted Alonso. He is more suited for 1B so that is his position when he comes up.

Sure, we COULD move him to 3B, Votto or EdE to LF, etc, etc, so it's good to have options. BUT for now, we actually are starting to have more corner IF prospects than we've had in a pretty long time, and again some of them can project to LF as well.

Again, I'm not saying that I AM in with the crew who never thought he'd be more than a AAAA guy - but the FO sure did, so they might see it as an ideal time to "Sell High" coming of his hot rookie season.

We did the same with Wily Mo and Felipe Lopez (and to some extent Kearns). Sometimes you've got to trade from a position of strength.

With all of these options, if we can get a proven LF bat, and another ML-ready prospect - SS or 3B - they would definitely have to consider it.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Aces Wild
12-23-2008, 04:26 PM
I don't mind trading Votto if it is for a decent haul. Jermaine Dye doesn't qualify as a decent haul for a guy who will be cheap and a servicable 1st baseman for the next few years. If we trade him for a young SS then I can see the logic in that considering Alonzo is on his way. However, if this rumor is true and we trade him for a 35 year old one year rental then I am done with the Reds.

It wouldn't be the single trade of Votto/Dye, but rather the accumulation of ineptitude of the organization for over a decade.

BLEEDS
12-23-2008, 04:29 PM
I don't mind trading Votto if it is for a decent haul. Jermaine Dye doesn't qualify as a decent haul for a guy who will be cheap and a servicable 1st baseman for the next few years. If we trade him for a young SS then I can see the logic in that considering Alonzo is on his way. However, if this rumor is true and we trade him for a 35 year old one year rental then I am done with the Reds.

It wouldn't be the single trade of Votto/Dye, but rather the accumulation of ineptitude of the organization for over a decade.

How about Jermaine Dye AND a young SS?
I think that is the minimum we would be looking for.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Griffey012
12-23-2008, 04:40 PM
It would have to something along the lines of Dye and Gordon Beckham as a starting point, but I would still be afraid to trade Votto. He is going to be more than a serviceable 1st baseman for years to come. His defense improve significantly over the course of the last year and eventually I think he will be plus defensively. I would rather run into the problem of figuring out what to do with Votto and Alonzo once Alonzo moves through the minors, rather than clearing room for him already.

Aces Wild
12-23-2008, 04:48 PM
I want a major league ready SS accompanied with Dye to do that deal. So I would think about that deal, but would still be hesitant. Basically you would be getting Aybar and one year of Dye for Votto. If I thought we were good enough to compete for the post season next year then I probably would do this, but since I don't I doubt I would.

If I am trading Votto it probably wouldn't be in any deal with a one year rental type like Dye, but rather a seperate deal with multiple young players.....one of which is a SS. Or I trade him for a legit young SS like Escobar (even if you have to throw something in).

Kingspoint
12-26-2008, 05:16 PM
I can understand trading Votto.

Alonzo will be the starting 1st Baseman in Sep of 2009. Votto has to either go to Left Field, 3rd Base, or some other team.

BLEEDS
12-26-2008, 05:45 PM
I can understand trading Votto.

Alonzo will be the starting 1st Baseman in Sep of 2009. Votto has to either go to Left Field, 3rd Base, or some other team.

I agree that it should be a consideration.

I won't reply to the other 5 posts that refer to the same thing, but I like how you're :bash: on this point. I personally have found it very effective myself...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

tomd63
12-27-2008, 10:43 AM
I like the idea of dealing Votto since we have Yonder waiting in the wings. Plus I think we match up well with the Angels. I came up with the following two deals to get the Reds ready for next season. Rip away.

Reds deal Votto/Bailey/Stubbs for Wood/Morales/Willits

Angels get an excellent starting 1B, a 5th starter candidate to compete with Mosely/Adenhart, and Stubbs for OF depth. Angels have Figgins and Aybar already penciled in at 3B and SS so they won't miss Woods. They still have Rivera/Matthews/Hunter/Guerrero to man OF/DH so Willits is expendable. Votto replaces Morales at 1B and they still have the money they saved on Texiera to spend elsewhere.

Reds get the 24 year old Wood to plug the hole at SS and he provides RH power (.296/.375/.595/.970 at AAA last season.). The 26 year old switch hitting Morales warms 1B until Yonder Alonso arrives, he went .341/.376/.543/.919 at AAA last season and .294/.333/.479/.812 for LAA in 2007. Reggie Willits leads off and plays CF for the Reds. The 28 year old switch hitter put up a line of .293/.391/.344/.735 for LAA in 2007 and has a minor league BA of .304 and OPB of .398.

Encarnacion/Stewart for Delmon Young

Twins fill their hole at 3B with a good RH bat and clear the way in the OF for Denard Span plus get a good young arm.

Reds get a 24 year old RH hitting LF with a career line of .292/.326/.413 over two seasons. His minor league numbers suggest that his SLG should improve .317/.363/.517/.880.

That would leave the Reds with the following for opening day.

CF Willits
3B Keppinger
LF Young
RF Bruce
SS Wood
1B Morales
2B Phillips
C Hernandez

C Hanigan
IF Gonzalez, Rosales
OF Dickerson, Hopper

SP Harang
SP Volquez
SP Arroyo
SP Cueto
SP Owings

RP Cordero
RP Weathers
RP Bray
RP Burton
RP Rhodes
RP Lincoln
RP Masset

Kingspoint
12-27-2008, 08:41 PM
I agree that it should be a consideration.

I won't reply to the other 5 posts that refer to the same thing, but I like how you're :bash: on this point. I personally have found it very effective myself...

PEACE

-BLEEDS


There won't be any more pounding of that or any other point, as the Taveras signing has just made the next 2 seasons meaningless. It doesn't matter what the REDS do now. They have their Achille's Heal entrenched in the lineup on a daily basis.

cincyredsone
12-27-2008, 09:05 PM
i haven't heard anything about the reds possibly trading votto. but, i did hear( and, this is one maybe two years away) that when yonder alonso comes up and, is ready to play everday
votto, could find himself in the outfield. the reds should not trade votto. he's part of the future.

redsfandan
12-27-2008, 09:55 PM
There won't be any more pounding of that or any other point, as the Taveras signing has just made the next 2 seasons meaningless. It doesn't matter what the REDS do now. They have their Achille's Heal entrenched in the lineup on a daily basis.

How do people continue to say stuff like this again ... and again ... and again and STILL manage to wake up everyday to face the world?? :confused: Baseball is still a game, it ISN'T life and death. :doh:

Kingspoint
12-28-2008, 06:53 PM
How do people continue to say stuff like this again ... and again ... and again and STILL manage to wake up everyday to face the world?? :confused: Baseball is still a game, it ISN'T life and death. :doh: I say it because it is only a game and that there are better things to do with my life than watch an organization go backwards when there was nothing but hope and great things to look at. If I actually lived in Cincinnati I'd go to probably about a dozen games because of all of the other great stories on the team. But, being outside the city it's nothing but boxscores and words. The Tavares signing has made those boxscores and words uninspiring.

Orodle
12-28-2008, 07:03 PM
I say it because it is only a game and that there are better things to do with my life than watch an organization go backwards when there was nothing but hope and great things to look at. If I actually lived in Cincinnati I'd go to probably about a dozen games because of all of the other great stories on the team. But, being outside the city it's nothing but boxscores and words. The Tavares signing has made those boxscores and words uninspiring.

If you seriously think that signing Taveras has crippled the Reds for 2 years you know nothing about baseball. In the simplest logic I can think of is that the Rockies got to the World Series with Taveras playing baseball for them. I'm not saying he is Ricky Henderson, just pointing out that you are so wrong a 5th grader and put two and two together and come up with the conclusion that signing Willie Taveras will not kill the Reds.

Kingspoint
12-28-2008, 07:07 PM
If you seriously think that signing Taveras has crippled the Reds for 2 years you know nothing about baseball. In the simplest logic I can think of is that the Rockies got to the World Series with Taveras playing baseball for them. I'm not saying he is Ricky Henderson, just pointing out that you are so wrong a 5th grader and put two and two together and come up with the conclusion that signing Willie Taveras will not kill the Reds.

There's a 41-page thread on ORG that disagrees with you.

Newman4
12-28-2008, 07:31 PM
There's a 41-page thread on ORG that disagrees with you.

That's why I'm glad I'm not part of ORG. Those are some the same guys that thought Arthur Rhodes (yep, the same Rhodes we just signed) was an All World closer when Billy Beane (who the all hail) signed him for the A's. Saber stuff has its value, but not everything in real life works out like it does in Fantasy League baseball or on XBox/PS3.

Kingspoint
12-28-2008, 08:11 PM
That's why I'm glad I'm not part of ORG. Those are some the same guys that thought Arthur Rhodes (yep, the same Rhodes we just signed) was an All World closer when Billy Beane (who the all hail) signed him for the A's. Saber stuff has its value, but not everything in real life works out like it does in Fantasy League baseball or on XBox/PS3.

I agree with you there, but OPS' and OBP' trends are pretty trustworthy in baseball. You can be accurate in estimating the next year within 20 points 85% of the time.