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View Full Version : Is George Foster worthy of the Hall of Fame?



WMR
12-26-2008, 12:23 PM
* 5x All-Star selection (1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1981)
* 2x World Series champion (1975, 1976)
* Silver Slugger Award winner (1981)
* 1977 NL MVP
* 1976 MLB All-Star Game MVP

Joseph
12-26-2008, 12:26 PM
If George had been a Yankee he'd be in and we'd be talking about how he's only in because he's a Yankee.

Were there a Hall of Really Good, George would be in.

I don't think he's a HoFer though.

WMR
12-26-2008, 12:28 PM
If George had been a Yankee he'd be in and we'd be talking about how he's only in because he's a Yankee.

Were there a Hall of Really Good, George would be in.

I don't think he's a HoFer though.

What about George Foster vs. Don Mattingly vs. Jim Rice?

(I personally feel that GF belongs in the HoF. His two WS rings puts him over the top, IMHO)

westofyou
12-26-2008, 12:49 PM
No

MrCinatit
12-26-2008, 01:01 PM
Take away four years, and he is nowhere near. As much as I like the guy, four years does not make a Hall of Fame career.

WMR
12-26-2008, 01:04 PM
In 1977, Foster hit 52 home runs, making him the only major league player to belt 50 or more homers in a single season during a 25-year period (between Willie Mays with 52 in 1965 and Cecil Fielder with 51 in 1990). The next batters to hit 50 HRs in the National League were Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa in 1998. He also batted in an NL leading 149 runs. In recognition of his accomplishment, Foster received the NL's MVP award by a unanimous vote.

You may be right, MrC, but the above passage screams HoF to me. Again, JMO.

Always Red
12-26-2008, 01:13 PM
Take away four years, and he is nowhere near. As much as I like the guy, four years does not make a Hall of Fame career.

4 years (1963-1966) did it for Sandy Koufax. But man, were they great years. :eek:

I don't think Foster belongs in the HoF, as much as I like him. Reds HoF, for a fine career, suits him just fine.

Always Red
12-26-2008, 01:15 PM
You may be right, MrC, but the above passage screams HoF to me. Again, JMO.

Using that reasoning, Roger Maris should be in the HoF, too.

RFS62
12-26-2008, 01:15 PM
Loved him as a player, but I'm afraid not.

PuffyPig
12-26-2008, 01:45 PM
4 years (1963-1966) did it for Sandy Koufax. But man, were they great years. :eek:



I like to think that Koufax had a 6 year run, though those 4 years were better than the other two,

But in 1961, Koufax won 18 games, led the NL with 269 K's, and was 7th in ERA.

In 1962, Koufax's injuries limited him to only 14 wins, but he did lead the NL in ERA.

RedsBaron
12-26-2008, 02:14 PM
Using that reasoning, Roger Maris should be in the HoF, too.

Very true. I've often thought of Foster when I have heard/read others advocate the HOF selection of Maris. I wouldn't vote for either Maris or Foster as a Hall of Famer, but George's career stacks up well with that of Maris.

Ron Madden
12-26-2008, 03:06 PM
I believe George Foster is one of the greatest sluggers in Reds history.

I don't think he is worthy of the Hall Of Fame though.

Mainspark
12-26-2008, 03:08 PM
Had he continued to produce at his 1976-81 level for four or five seasons after he went to the Mets, maybe. But unfortunately, that didn't happen. He tailed off pretty significantly.
Two players with very similar career statistics, Gil Hodges and Willie Horton, aren't in the Hall of Fame.

George Anderson
12-26-2008, 03:16 PM
The Reds HOF yes.

Cooperstown......nope.

cumberlandreds
12-26-2008, 03:20 PM
The Reds HOF yes.

Cooperstown......nope.

My sentiments exactly.Foster had three or four great years but his light burned out very quickly after leaving the Reds.

Always Red
12-26-2008, 03:31 PM
I like to think that Koufax had a 6 year run, though those 4 years were better than the other two,

But in 1961, Koufax won 18 games, led the NL with 269 K's, and was 7th in ERA.

In 1962, Koufax's injuries limited him to only 14 wins, but he did lead the NL in ERA.

2 good years followed by 4 of the best years in pitching history.

MrCinatit
12-26-2008, 04:01 PM
4 years (1963-1966) did it for Sandy Koufax. But man, were they great years. :eek:

I don't think Foster belongs in the HoF, as much as I like him. Reds HoF, for a fine career, suits him just fine.

Somewhat true.
The only reason Koufax's run did not extend further is that he retired young (30) due to injury. Basically, he was also voted in because of what could have happened, such as Addie Joss (imagine the number he could have put up...).
Foster, on the other hand, continued his career for quite a while after his monster run - much of it being injury free, I believe, though the '81 strike did rob him of potentially another large year.
Foster's number decline came mostly due to age (his numbers drop off significantly after 33), and arguably a departure from Cincinnati and appearance with the Mets.
Baseball reference compares his stats to Gil Hodges, Willy Horton, Tino Martinez, Jack Clark and Del Ennis. Five very good players, but none are quite HOF caliber.

Wheelhouse
12-26-2008, 04:47 PM
Nope. Terrific player and great guy though. His terrible drop off after going to NY didn't help his cause.

BoydsOfSummer
12-26-2008, 04:50 PM
GEORGE FOSTER

GIVEN NAME: George Arthur Foster
BORN: 12/1/1948 Tuscaloosa, Alabama
BAT: R THROW: R HEIGHT: 6'1" WEIGHT: 180 MLB DEBUT: 9/10/1969
CAREER GAMES BY POSITION: 1B: 2 LF: 1534 CF: 267 RF: 178 DH: 3

YEAR TEAM AGE G AB R H 2B 3B HR HR% RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS
1969 Giants 20 9 5 1 2 0 0 0 0.00 1 0 1 0 0 .400 .400 .400 .800
1970 Giants 21 9 19 2 6 1 1 1 5.26 4 2 5 0 0 .316 .632 .381 1.013
1971 Giants 22 36 105 11 28 5 0 3 2.86 8 6 27 0 1 .267 .400 .304 .704
Reds 22 104 368 39 86 18 4 10 2.72 50 23 93 7 6 .234 .386 .289 .675
TOTALS 140 473 50 114 23 4 13 2.75 58 29 120 7 7 .241 .389 .292 .681
1972 Reds 23 59 145 15 29 4 1 2 1.38 12 5 44 2 1 .200 .283 .230 .513
1973 Reds 24 17 39 6 11 3 0 4 10.26 9 4 7 0 1 .282 .667 .349 1.016
1974 Reds 25 106 276 31 73 18 0 7 2.54 41 30 52 3 2 .264 .406 .343 .749
1975 Reds 26 134 463 71 139 24 4 23 4.97 78 40 73 2 1 .300 .518 .356 .875
1976 Reds 27 144 562 86 172 21 9 29 5.16 121 52 89 17 3 .306 .530 .364 .894
1977 Reds 28 158 615 124 197 31 2 52 8.46 149 61 107 6 4 .320 .631 .382 1.013
1978 Reds 29 158 604 97 170 26 7 40 6.62 120 70 138 4 4 .281 .546 .360 .906
1979 Reds 30 121 440 68 133 18 3 30 6.82 98 59 105 0 2 .302 .561 .386 .948
1980 Reds 31 144 528 79 144 21 5 25 4.73 93 75 99 1 0 .273 .473 .362 .835
1981 Reds 32 108 414 64 122 23 2 22 5.31 90 51 75 4 0 .295 .519 .373 .892
1982 Mets 33 151 550 64 136 23 2 13 2.36 70 50 123 1 1 .247 .367 .309 .676
1983 Mets 34 157 601 74 145 19 2 28 4.66 90 38 111 1 1 .241 .419 .289 .708
1984 Mets 35 146 553 67 149 22 1 24 4.34 86 30 122 2 2 .269 .443 .311 .754
1985 Mets 36 129 452 57 119 24 1 21 4.65 77 46 87 0 1 .263 .460 .331 .792
1986 Mets 37 72 233 28 53 6 1 13 5.58 38 21 53 1 1 .227 .429 .289 .718
White Sox 37 15 51 2 11 0 2 1 1.96 4 3 8 0 0 .216 .353 .259 .612
TOTALS 87 284 30 64 6 3 14 4.93 42 24 61 1 1 .225 .415 .284 .699
TOTALS 1977 7023 986 1925 307 47 348 4.96 1239 666 1419 51 31 .274 .480 .338 .818
LG AVERAGE 6855 856 1808 302 52 147 2.14 795 680 976 169 82 .264 .387 .331 .718
POS AVERAGE 6931 944 1882 313 61 171 2.47 850 728 1106 246 100 .271 .409 .341 .750

YEAR TEAM RC RCAA RCAP OWP RC/G TB EBH ISO SEC BPA IBB HBP SAC SF GIDP OUTS PA POS
1969 Giants 1 1 0 .782 9.00 2 0 .000 .000 .400 0 0 0 0 0 3 5 RF
1970 Giants 4 2 1 .706 7.71 12 3 .316 .421 .619 1 0 0 0 1 14 21 LF
1971 Giants 11 -2 -4 .416 3.58 42 8 .133 .190 .384 1 0 0 1 4 83 112 LF
Reds 36 -10 -13 .381 3.16 142 32 .152 .234 .392 2 7 1 3 16 308 402 CF
TOTALS 47 -12 -17 .389 3.25 184 40 .148 .224 .390 3 7 1 4 20 391 514
1972 Reds 8 -10 -11 .184 1.74 41 7 .083 .131 .276 1 1 0 1 6 124 152 RF
1973 Reds 8 3 3 .732 7.20 26 7 .385 .487 .651 0 0 0 0 1 30 43 CF
1974 Reds 37 2 -3 .523 4.60 112 25 .141 .261 .446 5 4 2 2 8 217 314 RF
1975 Reds 81 22 19 .634 6.36 240 51 .218 .309 .528 11 3 0 5 14 344 511 LF
1976 Reds 110 43 32 .707 7.19 298 59 .224 .347 .569 4 4 0 9 11 413 627 LF
1977 Reds 143 63 54 .738 8.64 388 85 .311 .420 .637 10 5 0 8 17 447 689 LF
1978 Reds 113 35 26 .656 6.60 330 73 .265 .387 .566 16 7 0 6 18 462 687 LF
1979 Reds 93 39 35 .728 7.77 247 51 .259 .393 .586 7 3 0 3 11 323 505 LF
1980 Reds 90 22 10 .621 6.04 250 51 .201 .345 .515 14 1 0 4 14 402 608 LF
1981 Reds 80 31 22 .703 7.01 215 47 .225 .357 .553 5 3 0 4 12 308 472 LF
1982 Mets 61 -10 -9 .428 3.79 202 38 .120 .213 .396 9 2 0 6 13 434 608 LF
1983 Mets 67 -12 -22 .420 3.77 252 49 .178 .243 .425 5 4 0 4 19 480 647 LF
1984 Mets 72 3 -3 .513 4.56 245 47 .174 .231 .449 9 6 0 6 14 426 595 LF
1985 Mets 68 14 7 .602 5.31 208 46 .197 .299 .490 5 2 0 4 8 346 504 LF
1986 Mets 27 -3 -7 .451 3.84 100 20 .202 .296 .445 1 0 0 2 7 190 256 LF
White Sox 4 -3 -4 .248 2.57 18 3 .137 .196 .352 0 0 0 0 2 42 54 LF
TOTALS 31 -6 -11 .416 3.61 118 23 .190 .278 .429 1 0 0 2 9 232 310
TOTALS 1114 230 133 .598 5.57 3370 702 .206 .308 .501 106 52 3 68 196 5396 7812
LG AVERAGE 890 0 0 .500 4.45 2654 500 .123 .247 .433 86 34 56 59 153 5396 7683
POS AVERAGE 988 97 0 .541 4.94 2832 546 .137 .278 .464 74 37 39 62 147 5396 7796


Sabermetric Baseball Encyclopedia
New editions are available every October
http://www.baseball-encyclopedia.com

remdog
12-26-2008, 05:11 PM
I hate to say it because I really liked George as a Red but....no. He doesn't belong in the HOF.

I guessing that if someone asked George, straight up, 'do you belong in the HOF?', he'd give a straight up answer and say "No".

Rem

Always Red
12-26-2008, 05:13 PM
Somewhat true.
The only reason Koufax's run did not extend further is that he retired young (30) due to injury. Basically, he was also voted in because of what could have happened, such as Addie Joss (imagine the number he could have put up...).
Foster, on the other hand, continued his career for quite a while after his monster run - much of it being injury free, I believe, though the '81 strike did rob him of potentially another large year.
Foster's number decline came mostly due to age (his numbers drop off significantly after 33), and arguably a departure from Cincinnati and appearance with the Mets.
Baseball reference compares his stats to Gil Hodges, Willy Horton, Tino Martinez, Jack Clark and Del Ennis. Five very good players, but none are quite HOF caliber.

I was just pointing out that on a rare occasion, 4 great years in a row can lead one to a HoF.

I was never intending to compare Foster and Koufax's careers; obviously George had a lot more time (ultimately, to cool off) than Sandy K did. :)

George Anderson
12-26-2008, 06:01 PM
The highest vote total Foster received for HOF induction was 6.9% , a far cry from the needed 75%.

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/playerVoting.do?playerId=114333

_Sir_Charles_
12-26-2008, 06:43 PM
One word. No.

George Anderson
12-26-2008, 08:52 PM
In recognition of his accomplishment, Foster received the NL's MVP award by a unanimous vote.

.

It wasn't unanimous. In fact it was pretty close.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_1977.shtml#NLmvp

KronoRed
12-26-2008, 09:11 PM
Reds HOF sure, MLB HOF, no, not close.

15fan
12-26-2008, 10:00 PM
The Baseball HoF in Cooperstown is for mere mortals, and thus not worthy of George's presence.

George should instead have a spot on Mount Olympus.

Highlifeman21
12-26-2008, 10:16 PM
No

What he said.

cincinnati chili
12-27-2008, 08:37 PM
No way.

I don't think Dave Parker deserves to be in either, but he's much more deserving than Foster, as far as Reds sluggers of the past 40 years go.

westofyou
12-27-2008, 09:40 PM
No way.

I don't think Dave Parker deserves to be in either, but he's much more deserving than Foster, as far as Reds sluggers of the past 40 years go.

Hey speaking of Reds sluggers...

Career vs the league (Foster had 3000 more PA's

AVG OBA SLG OPS
.010 .008 .093 .101 - George Foster
.020 .029 .121 .150 - Kevin Mitchell

macro
12-28-2008, 09:09 AM
It hadn't occurred to me that George Foster hit more than 30 home runs in a season only twice in his career.

cincinnati chili
12-28-2008, 02:28 PM
It hadn't occurred to me that George Foster hit more than 30 home runs in a season only twice in his career.

Another fun fact. Roger Maris only did so 3 times. He's not in the hall of fame either.

Cyclone792
12-28-2008, 05:23 PM
Foster was a very good player, arguably a top 30 left fielder. Unfortunately, top 30 doesn't get you in the Hall. Top 20 and you've got a borderline argument, ala Joe Gordon. Top 15 and you should be going in. But top 30 won't cut it.

Mainspark
12-29-2008, 08:10 AM
Had Foster done more to build his career stats in 1972-74, or continued to produce at something approaching his late-70s level through the mid-80s, we're looking at a Hall of Fame career.
As it was, he was among the game's very best run producers and power hitters in his prime.
His 1977 production seemed incredible, off the charts, at the time. It's a shame substance abusers two decades later would produce stats that have in a sense destroyed any perspective of what Foster accomplished that season.
He wasn't the unanimous MVP that season. Greg Luzinski received significant support (I believe he drew nine first-place votes compared to Foster's 15), in large part because the Phillies won their division that season, while the Reds, coming off two consecutive championships, failed to advance to the post-season.
An odd aside: The day Foster was named the 1977 MVP that November, an unusual series of events made me the person who broke that news to teammate Johnny Bench, at of all places a car dealership in Fort Wayne, Ind.
Likely a more memorable experience for me than for Bench.

Sea Ray
12-30-2008, 05:48 PM
I admit that I likely do have some Reds bias here but I would vote for George Foster for the HOF. Sure he only had a few HOF years and you can't use his stat sheet to justify his induction but I look at the fact that he was the most dangerous hitter in a murder's row of sluggers--the Big Red Machine. He was what made the difference between a Reds team that struggled to win the NL West to a team that blew by the Dodgers and won back to back World Series. He's still the best hitter I've ever seen in a Reds uniform (with a close 2nd to Eric Davis). His importance to one of the best teams in MLB history is what puts him over the top in my mind.

I don't understand why Joe Morgan gets in on the 1st ballot and George Foster can't get past 5%. It can be argued that Joe Morgan only had 5 or 6 HOF years (1972-77) and all the rest were quite ordinary for a 2B.

Highlifeman21
12-30-2008, 05:57 PM
I believe George Foster is one of the greatest sluggers in Reds history.

I don't think he is worthy of the Hall Of Fame though.

Precisely how I feel.

mth123
12-30-2008, 06:02 PM
Its not the Hall of Very Good. Foster is a cut below great. No.

George Anderson
12-30-2008, 08:57 PM
I don't understand why Joe Morgan gets in on the 1st ballot and George Foster can't get past 5%. It can be argued that Joe Morgan only had 5 or 6 HOF years (1972-77) and all the rest were quite ordinary for a 2B.

Morgan was one of the greatest fielders, baserunners and hitters of his generation. Foster for a period of 4 years was the most dominant hitter in the NL but that is it. He was not a base stealing threat and he was below average in the field. Morgan did have his best years with the bat from 72'-77' but while the other years weren't as steller he still was one of the premier base stealers and fielders during this time.

Fosters career was a great one but IMO no way a HOF career . If Foster is worthy then you really have lowered the bar and opened the door for guys with similar careers like Greg Luzinski, Joe Adcock, Jack Clark, Albert Belle.

Mainspark
12-30-2008, 09:30 PM
It's not my desire to criticize George Foster. He was one of the game's greatest players in his prime, and I'll always appreciate the tremendous offense he brought to the Reds teams of his era.
But as someone who saw him play, I have to say this.
Had he been subjected to the kind of daily scrutiny that the Internet now allows remember that Reds fans had no such forum in Foster's day his defense would have come under fire on a Big Red Machine-era version of RedsZone, if such a thing had then existed.
His great offense aside, his reluctance to approach fences at high speed, if necessary, in pursuit of fly balls resulted in griping on sports talk programs of that era. Perhaps it drew more attention because his immediate predecessor in left field had been especially aggressive in pursuing such catches.

George Anderson
12-30-2008, 09:59 PM
His great offense aside, his reluctance to approach fences at high speed, if necessary, in pursuit of fly balls resulted in griping on sports talk programs of that era.


I remember like yesterday Foster announcing to the press that he would no longer approach fences to catch fly balls. It was around 1980 and I will never forget the controversy it created and the seemingly hundreds of negative calls about Foster made to Bob Trumpy on WLW. Foster's comment was something along the lines of that he was paid to hit homeruns and not run into walls. It didn't go over to well with many of the Charley Hustle mindset.

westofyou
12-30-2008, 10:23 PM
Morgan was one of the greatest fielders, baserunners and hitters of his generation. Foster for a period of 4 years was the most dominant hitter in the NL but that is it. He was not a base stealing threat and he was below average in the field. Morgan did have his best years with the bat from 72'-77' but while the other years weren't as steller he still was one of the premier base stealers and fielders during this time.

Fosters career was a great one but IMO no way a HOF career . If Foster is worthy then you really have lowered the bar and opened the door for guys with similar careers like Greg Luzinski, Joe Adcock, Jack Clark, Albert Belle.

Guys with Plus OPS highlighted

CAREER
1965-1971
2B
OPS vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
OBA vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
SLG vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
RUNS CREATED/GAME displayed only--not a sorting criteria
TOTAL BASES displayed only--not a sorting criteria

PLATE APPEARANCES PA OPS OBA SLG RC/G TB
1 Glenn Beckert 4451 -.036 -.004 -.032 4.00 1474
2 Joe Morgan 3847 .058 .049 .010 5.88 1280
3 Cookie Rojas 3833 -.069 -.020 -.048 3.35 1180
4 Ron Hunt 3507 .004 .044 -.040 4.61 1014
5 Davey Johnson 3440 .022 .012 .010 4.37 1183
6 Horace Clarke 3367 -.079 -.017 -.062 3.47 979
7 Bobby Knoop 3350 -.054 -.022 -.032 3.32 1047
8 Bill Mazeroski 3295 -.069 -.028 -.041 3.28 1047
9 Julian Javier 3217 -.061 -.030 -.031 3.49 1059
10 Mike Andrews 2874 .061 .044 .017 5.22 953
11 Felix Millan 2837 -.029 -.002 -.027 3.92 930
12 Dick Green 2832 -.041 -.013 -.028 3.63 893
13 Dick McAuliffe 2830 .046 .024 .022 4.99 951
14 Tommy Helms 2757 -.091 -.036 -.055 2.98 853
15 Sandy Alomar Sr. 2576 -.119 -.032 -.087 3.20 699
16 Rod Carew 2393 .072 .034 .038 5.10 903
17 Jim Lefebvre 2346 -.001 -.001 .000 4.26 806
18 Bernie Allen 2064 -.035 -.006 -.029 3.74 637
19 Tony Taylor 1645 -.020 -.004 -.016 4.05 563
20 Ken Boswell 1592 -.023 .000 -.023 3.94 515
21 Ted Sizemore 1558 -.043 .004 -.048 3.89 480
22 Tito Fuentes 1545 -.083 -.030 -.052 3.33 474
23 Gary Sutherland 1478 -.126 -.041 -.086 2.82 406
24 Pete Rose 1457 .103 .044 .059 6.09 600
25 John Donaldson 1365 -.075 -.003 -.072 3.32 359

Sea Ray
12-31-2008, 08:29 AM
It's unfortunate that in Foster's later years he became a prodder and known as a subpar fielder. This is due to his announcement about running into walls and the issue that he sometimes refused to slide on the basepaths. But early on he was known as quite an athlete. He had a very good arm in LF as he showed in game 6 of the 1975 WS and in 1972 he scored the winning run in decisive game 5 vs the Pirates. In that game he was chosen as a pinch runner because he had above avg speed.

The comparison to guys like Luzinski, Clark and Belle is interesting. To me what sets Foster apart is that he contributed to a great team in baseball history. If not for his contributions, the BRM never would have been known as great. That's something few other sluggers have on their resume. IMO, that kind of contribution is what got Tony Perez into the Hall.

George Anderson
12-31-2008, 09:28 AM
To me what sets Foster apart is that he contributed to a great team in baseball history. If not for his contributions, the BRM never would have been known as great.

There is no question Foster played a major part in the great teams of 75' and 76' but if you went thru baseball history you could find many players who filled the role Foster did. Roger Maris is a perfect example, had he not played the part he did on the 61' Yankees then they never would have achieved the greatness that they did, but few baseball historians will give the nod to Maris for the HOF. Gil Hodges is a player similar to Foster that played a major part on the great Brooklyn teams of the 50's but even with his superior stats to Foster, he has also not achieved induction either.

The HOF to me is a place where membership should be for the very elite who have ever played the game. While a special nod should be given to Foster for playing the part that he did on the BRM, the reality is it isn't enough to make up for his stats that are well below HOF standards.

RedsBaron
12-31-2008, 09:35 AM
I don't believe that George Foster belongs in Cooperstown, but a comparison to another contemporary, a leftfielder, may be of interest.
Jim Rice is expected to be inducted into the HOF in a few weeks. An initial comparsion between Rice and Foster clearly favors Rice, who pretty much leads Foster across the board: 382 HRs to 348; 1423 RBI to 1239; 1249 runs to 986; a .298 average to .274; a .352 OBP to .338; and a .502 SLG to .480 (Rice also has a healthy lead in grounding into double plays--315 to 196).
However, while Foster played much of his career with a good home park for hitters with Riverfront Stadium, Rice had Fenway Park has his home park for his entire career, and Fenway was a terrific hitters park.
BaseballReference.com has a Stats Neutralizer that purports to "neutralize" statistics for ballpark effects and eras, based upon an historical average of 715 runs per team. Using the Stats Neutralizer for Rice and Foster gives them much more comparable career numbers. In HRs, Rice's lead narrows to 378-370; RBI are closer at 1474-1390; runs are closer at 1264-1102; Rice has a narrow lead in average, .290-.282; and Foster actually leads in OBP, .347-.343, and in SLG, .492-.489.
Rice and Foster each won one MVP award. Rice was an eight time All Star and Foster had five All Star selections. Rice had three HR titles, while Foster had two. Rice lead the league in RBI twice while Foster lead in RBI three times. Rice lead the league in slugging twice, Foster once. Rice lead the league in total bases four times and in hits once, while Foster lead the league in total bases once, OPS once, and runs once.
Foster played from 1969 through 1986, while Rice played from 1974 through 1989.
As I stated, I don't believe Foster should be in the Hall of Fame. I now wonder if Rice should be there either.

George Anderson
12-31-2008, 09:50 AM
I now wonder if Rice should be there either.

If I had a vote I doubt if I would vote for Rice but he is no question close. I guess the big problem I have with players like Rice and Foster is they were very one dimensional in that they were great hitters and that was it. Had they won a few Gold Gloves or even had the reputation of being good fielders then I would be more inclined to vote for them. The only way I want to see a one dimensional player like this make the HOF is if their stats were so incredible that you had no choice but to put them in. The standard for making the HOF is 3,000 hits or 500 HR's. I would have no problem seeing Foster or Rice make the HOF had they achieved these feats but since they didn't IMO their isn't enough in the other parts of their careers to push them over the edge for induction.

Sea Ray
12-31-2008, 03:56 PM
There is no question Foster played a major part in the great teams of 75' and 76' but if you went thru baseball history you could find many players who filled the role Foster did. Roger Maris is a perfect example, had he not played the part he did on the 61' Yankees then they never would have achieved the greatness that they did, but few baseball historians will give the nod to Maris for the HOF. Gil Hodges is a player similar to Foster that played a major part on the great Brooklyn teams of the 50's but even with his superior stats to Foster, he has also not achieved induction either.

The HOF to me is a place where membership should be for the very elite who have ever played the game. While a special nod should be given to Foster for playing the part that he did on the BRM, the reality is it isn't enough to make up for his stats that are well below HOF standards.

Yeah, I see your point but keep in mind guys like Maris got a lot more consideration for the Hall than Foster did. Foster's paltry 5% is a little weak IMO.

Sea Ray
12-31-2008, 04:00 PM
The standard for making the HOF is 3,000 hits or 500 HR's. I would have no problem seeing Foster or Rice make the HOF had they achieved these feats but since they didn't IMO their isn't enough in the other parts of their careers to push them over the edge for induction.

Just as an aside, do you support Palmiero for the Hall?

I'm with you on the 3000 hits but in the steroid era, I'm not a fan of 500 HRs getting an automatic pass to Cooperstown. I'm not even sure 600 HRs does it. Didn't Sammy get to 600 HRs?

George Anderson
12-31-2008, 04:55 PM
Just as an aside, do you support Palmiero for the Hall?

I'm with you on the 3000 hits but in the steroid era, I'm not a fan of 500 HRs getting an automatic pass to Cooperstown. I'm not even sure 600 HRs does it. Didn't Sammy get to 600 HRs?

No I don't support Palmiero or anyone else who tested positive for performance enhanced drugs. Having said that Bonds for example was IMO a HOFer before he obviously did the performance enhanced drugs so I would have no problem seeing Bonds get in.

You are right on the 500 home runs. With how the way the game has changed you will see more and more players hit the 500 mark so I think the bar needs to be set a little higher.

It could have been interesting though had Harold Baines reached 3,000 hits. If I recall he fell a few hundred short, but I just can't see him in as worthy of the HOF even if he had reached the magic 3,000 hit mark.

George Anderson
12-31-2008, 04:57 PM
Yeah, I see your point but keep in mind guys like Maris got a lot more consideration for the Hall than Foster did. Foster's paltry 5% is a little weak IMO.

Had Foster played for the beloved Bronx Bombers, he would have received many more votes than he did.

RedEye
01-01-2009, 01:39 PM
Just as an aside, do you support Palmiero for the Hall?

I'm with you on the 3000 hits but in the steroid era, I'm not a fan of 500 HRs getting an automatic pass to Cooperstown. I'm not even sure 600 HRs does it. Didn't Sammy get to 600 HRs?

I think it is a mistake to assume the steroids didn't also help him to attain 3,000 hits. A lot of the advantage of PED's lies in the way they help players recover from injury. No telling whether Palmeiro could have had the same longevity without them.

If you vote Raffy for the Hall, you are voting with full knowledge that ALL of his stats could have been--and probably were--tainted in some way by his use of drugs. That doesn't necessarily mean he shouldn't get a vote any more than another member of his generation (many of whom probably also used but were never caught). It just means that voters have one heck of a conundrum on their hands for players in the steroids era.

cincinnati chili
01-04-2009, 02:16 PM
Jim Rice is expected to be inducted into the HOF in a few weeks.

Really? I wouldn't put money on that. Rice came so close to making it last year though that I'm convinced that if he was half as personable and quotable with the media as George Foster he would have made it in years ago.

"I don't know why people like the home run so much. A home run is over as soon as it starts. The triple is the most exciting play of the game. A triple is like meeting a woman who excites you, spending the evening talking and getting more excited, then taking her home. It drags on and on. You're never sure how it's going to turn out." - George Foster (1978)
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/trades.php?p=fostege01

RedsBaron
01-04-2009, 02:48 PM
Rice got about 72% of the vote last year. I believe that every player who ever got that close to the 75% required for induction has eventually made the HOF, although a few had to do it via the Veterans Committee. I'd guess that Rice has at least a fifty-fifty chance of being inducted this year, his final year on the ballot.

Tony Cloninger
01-17-2009, 09:44 AM
Foster's 1979 season was cut short by injuries ....and that cost him his 4th straight RBI title......which he could have done despite missing about 40 games.

Hack Wilson in the HOF? If he is....he does not belong either....beacuse i think you compare his stats and small window of dominance....and you have a Foster clone. This is going by what the average was at that time in comparison to Foster's time.

pahster
01-17-2009, 10:17 AM
Hack Wilson in the HOF? If he is....he does not belong either....beacuse i think you compare his stats and small window of dominance....and you have a Foster clone. This is going by what the average was at that time in comparison to Foster's time.

Wilson had a career OPS+ of 144 compared to Foster's 126. The former was a much better hitter.

westofyou
01-17-2009, 10:33 AM
Fosters best 8 years vs Wilsons best 8 years


1975-1982

YEAR TEAM AGE G AB R H 2B 3B HR HR% RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS
1975 Reds 26 134 463 71 139 24 4 23 4.97 78 40 73 2 1 .300 .518 .356 .875
1976 Reds 27 144 562 86 172 21 9 29 5.16 121 52 89 17 3 .306 .530 .364 .894
1977 Reds 28 158 615 124 197 31 2 52 8.46 149 61 107 6 4 .320 .631 .382 1.013
1978 Reds 29 158 604 97 170 26 7 40 6.62 120 70 138 4 4 .281 .546 .360 .906
1979 Reds 30 121 440 68 133 18 3 30 6.82 98 59 105 0 2 .302 .561 .386 .948
1980 Reds 31 144 528 79 144 21 5 25 4.73 93 75 99 1 0 .273 .473 .362 .835
1981 Reds 32 108 414 64 122 23 2 22 5.31 90 51 75 4 0 .295 .519 .373 .892
1982 Mets 33 151 550 64 136 23 2 13 2.36 70 50 123 1 1 .247 .367 .309 .676
TOTALS 1118 4176 653 1213 187 34 234 5.60 819 458 809 35 15 .290 .520 .361 .881
LG AVERAGE 3986 499 1058 178 31 83 2.08 463 392 547 100 49 .265 .388 .332 .720
POS AVERAGE 4033 543 1106 183 36 101 2.50 508 413 629 131 59 .274 .413 .342 .755

YEAR TEAM RC RCAA RCAP OWP RC/G TB EBH ISO SEC BPA IBB HBP SAC SF GIDP OUTS PA POS
1975 Reds 81 22 19 .634 6.36 240 51 .218 .309 .528 11 3 0 5 14 344 511 LF
1976 Reds 110 43 32 .707 7.19 298 59 .224 .347 .569 4 4 0 9 11 413 627 LF
1977 Reds 143 63 54 .738 8.64 388 85 .311 .420 .637 10 5 0 8 17 447 689 LF
1978 Reds 113 35 26 .656 6.60 330 73 .265 .387 .566 16 7 0 6 18 462 687 LF
1979 Reds 93 39 35 .728 7.77 247 51 .259 .393 .586 7 3 0 3 11 323 505 LF
1980 Reds 90 22 10 .621 6.04 250 51 .201 .345 .515 14 1 0 4 14 402 608 LF
1981 Reds 80 31 22 .703 7.01 215 47 .225 .357 .553 5 3 0 4 12 308 472 LF
1982 Mets 61 -10 -9 .428 3.79 202 38 .120 .213 .396 9 2 0 6 13 434 608 LF
TOTALS 771 245 189 .663 6.64 2170 455 .229 .347 .545 76 28 0 45 110 3133 4707
LG AVERAGE 521 0 0 .500 4.49 1547 292 .123 .246 .434 51 20 33 35 88 3133 4466
POS AVERAGE 578 56 0 .541 4.98 1665 321 .139 .274 .463 45 22 22 37 87 3133 4528




HACK WILSON

1926-1933

YEAR TEAM AGE G AB R H 2B 3B HR HR% RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS
1926 Cubs 26 142 529 97 170 36 8 21 3.97 109 69 61 10 0 .321 .539 .406 .944
1927 Cubs 27 146 551 119 175 30 12 30 5.44 129 71 70 13 0 .318 .579 .401 .980
1928 Cubs 28 145 520 89 163 32 9 31 5.96 120 77 94 4 0 .313 .588 .404 .992
1929 Cubs 29 150 574 135 198 30 5 39 6.79 159 78 83 3 0 .345 .618 .425 1.044
1930 Cubs 30 155 585 146 208 35 6 56 9.57 191 105 84 3 0 .356 .723 .454 1.177
1931 Cubs 31 112 395 66 103 22 4 13 3.29 61 63 69 1 0 .261 .435 .362 .798
1932 Dodgers 32 135 481 77 143 37 5 23 4.78 123 51 85 2 0 .297 .538 .366 .904
1933 Dodgers 33 117 360 41 96 13 2 9 2.50 54 52 50 7 0 .267 .389 .359 .748
TOTALS 1102 3995 770 1256 235 51 222 5.56 946 566 596 43 0 .314 .565 .402 .967
LG AVERAGE 3850 553 1125 199 52 58 1.52 511 332 282 54 0 .292 .416 .351 .768
POS AVERAGE 3915 625 1171 199 52 72 1.85 496 325 297 65 0 .299 .432 .357 .789

YEAR TEAM RC RCAA RCAP OWP RC/G TB EBH ISO SEC BPA IBB HBP SAC SF GIDP OUTS PA POS
1926 Cubs 117 43 40 .700 8.27 285 65 .217 .367 .613 0 6 9 0 0 368 613 CF
1927 Cubs 128 53 49 .726 8.45 319 72 .261 .414 .651 0 6 18 0 0 394 646 CF
1928 Cubs 123 52 54 .734 8.39 306 72 .275 .431 .649 0 2 24 0 0 381 623 CF
1929 Cubs 151 62 54 .723 10.02 355 74 .274 .415 .670 0 2 16 0 0 392 670 CF
1930 Cubs 193 90 98 .758 12.70 423 97 .368 .552 .770 0 1 18 0 0 395 709 CF
1931 Cubs 64 10 7 .580 5.70 172 39 .175 .337 .515 0 0 0 0 0 292 458 CF
1932 Dodgers 94 30 7 .667 7.10 259 65 .241 .351 .587 0 1 6 0 0 344 539 RF
1933 Dodgers 53 8 5 .578 5.24 140 24 .122 .286 .464 0 0 1 0 8 273 413 LF
TOTALS 923 348 314 .702 8.48 2259 508 .251 .404 .629 0 18 92 0 8 2839 4671
LG AVERAGE 580 0 0 .500 5.33 1602 309 .124 .224 .476 0 20 104 0 9 2839 4307
POS AVERAGE 617 37 0 .528 5.67 1692 324 .133 .233 .492 0 25 88 0 8 2839 4353

Vs the league




HACK WILSON

YEAR TEAM AGE G AB R H 2B 3B HR HR% RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS
1923 Giants 23 -1 -2 -1 0 0 0 -1.33 -1 -1 0 0 0 -.093 -.208 -.152 -.360
1924 Giants 24 12 11 5 2 6 5 1.38 11 15 20 -3 3 .005 .082 .024 .106
1925 Giants 25 -14 -1 -15 -3 1 3 1.78 4 5 20 2 1 -.062 -.007 -.036 -.043
1926 Cubs 26 37 29 29 12 1 16 2.85 47 26 27 2 0 .034 .141 .058 .199
1927 Cubs 27 22 45 21 5 5 24 4.22 62 26 33 4 0 .028 .179 .053 .231
1928 Cubs 28 8 16 14 6 2 23 4.42 53 28 58 -3 0 .023 .176 .049 .225
1929 Cubs 29 34 49 34 0 -3 29 4.92 79 26 45 -6 0 .041 .175 .057 .232
1930 Cubs 30 34 54 36 4 -2 44 7.41 105 56 41 -4 0 .044 .259 .084 .343
1931 Cubs 31 -5 12 -11 1 -1 8 2.05 11 29 37 -4 0 -.024 .033 .018 .051
1932 Dodgers 32 10 13 9 11 -1 15 3.18 64 16 48 -3 0 .013 .127 .029 .156
1933 Dodgers 33 6 -2 -1 -3 -2 5 1.34 15 26 24 3 0 -.008 .014 .032 .046
1934 Dodgers 34 -4 0 -6 -4 -2 3 1.87 4 26 18 -2 0 -.026 -.013 .059 .046
Phillies 34 -7 -4 -6 -1 0 0 -1.62 0 1 2 0 0 -.187 -.308 -.125 -.433
TOTALS -11 -4 -11 -5 -2 3 1.50 4 27 20 -2 0 -.042 -.044 .041 -.003
TOTALS 130 222 109 29 4 175 3.63 453 279 374 -14 4 .015 .129 .044 .174


YEAR TEAM RC RCAA RCAP OWP RC/G TB EBH ISO SEC BPA IBB HBP SAC SF GIDP OUTS PA POS
TOTALS 1 0.10 -13 -5 -.001 .135 .009 0 -1 -3 0 -2 0 12
1923 Giants -2 -5.17 -2 -1 -.115 -.220 -.261 0 0 0 0 0 0 -2 CF
1924 Giants 18 1.64 36 14 .077 .104 .089 0 -1 -3 0 0 0 22 CF
1925 Giants -5 -0.89 -7 1 .055 .098 .021 0 0 -1 0 0 0 -10 LF
1926 Cubs 47 3.32 89 29 .106 .153 .149 0 3 -8 0 0 0 58 CF
1927 Cubs 52 3.44 107 34 .151 .202 .186 0 3 0 0 0 0 51 CF
1928 Cubs 45 3.10 95 32 .152 .198 .170 0 -1 7 0 0 0 42 CF
1929 Cubs 60 3.97 115 27 .134 .162 .159 0 -1 0 0 0 0 59 CF
1930 Cubs 96 6.32 167 45 .216 .300 .250 0 -2 2 0 0 0 91 CF
1931 Cubs 7 0.65 11 7 .057 .123 .053 0 -2 -6 0 0 0 16 CF
1932 Dodgers 27 2.07 65 26 .114 .138 .122 0 -1 -1 0 0 0 24 RF
1933 Dodgers 8 0.80 7 0 .021 .101 .057 0 -2 -6 0 1 0 24 LF
1934 Dodgers 4 0.91 -4 -3 .013 .157 .044 0 -1 -2 0 -1 0 18 LF
Phillies -4 -5.22 -9 -2 -.121 -.059 -.311 0 0 0 0 -1 0 -6 LF
TOTALS 1 0.10 -13 -5 -.001 .135 .009 0 -1 -3 0 -2 0 12
TOTALS 355 2.78 670 208 .115 .168 .136 0 -4 -19 0 -1 0 387



GEORGE FOSTER

YEAR TEAM AGE G AB R H 2B 3B HR HR% RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS
1969 Giants 20 1 1 1 0 0 0 -2.36 1 0 0 0 0 .141 .016 .070 .086
1970 Giants 21 1 0 1 0 1 1 2.58 2 0 2 0 0 .049 .224 .041 .265
1971 Giants 22 0 -2 1 1 -1 1 0.65 -4 -4 12 -2 0 .007 .020 -.022 -.003
Reds 22 -22 -8 -15 3 1 1 0.51 7 -14 37 1 -3 -.026 .006 -.037 -.031
TOTALS -22 -9 -15 3 0 2 0.54 3 -18 49 0 -3 -.019 .009 -.034 -.025
1972 Reds 23 -12 -4 -11 -2 0 -2 -0.90 -5 -10 20 -1 1 -.057 -.096 -.095 -.191
1973 Reds 24 1 1 1 1 0 3 7.77 5 0 1 -1 -1 .020 .276 .017 .294
1974 Reds 25 1 -4 1 7 -2 1 0.48 9 1 14 -3 1 .002 .027 .009 .035
1975 Reds 26 25 16 23 5 1 14 2.98 27 -6 14 -6 3 .035 .135 .020 .155
1976 Reds 27 38 22 34 -1 5 20 3.36 62 0 19 5 3 .043 .156 .035 .190
1977 Reds 28 42 48 43 4 -3 37 5.88 78 3 24 -8 4 .051 .220 .045 .265
1978 Reds 29 19 25 17 -1 2 28 4.54 53 11 57 -11 3 .019 .161 .030 .191
1979 Reds 30 27 15 22 -1 0 21 4.53 49 19 48 -10 3 .033 .162 .052 .214
1980 Reds 31 16 16 7 -2 1 15 2.75 34 27 30 -14 7 .006 .086 .033 .119
1981 Reds 32 25 18 20 6 -1 15 3.57 47 13 24 -7 5 .032 .143 .045 .188
1982 Mets 33 -2 -5 -11 -1 -2 2 0.29 6 -2 45 -15 6 -.018 -.019 -.019 -.038
1983 Mets 34 -7 -3 -15 -8 -3 14 2.41 18 -24 20 -17 8 -.022 .029 -.043 -.013
1984 Mets 35 12 0 6 -2 -3 13 2.29 23 -23 40 -13 5 .006 .060 -.017 .043
1985 Mets 36 14 2 5 4 -2 11 2.36 26 2 22 -12 4 .003 .073 .003 .076
1986 Mets 37 -8 -3 -10 -5 0 7 3.14 9 -4 14 -6 2 -.034 .035 -.042 -.007
White Sox 37 -2 -5 -3 -2 2 -1 -1.00 -3 -2 -1 -1 1 -.046 -.055 -.070 -.125
TOTALS -10 -8 -13 -8 1 7 2.39 7 -6 13 -7 3 -.036 .019 -.047 -.028
TOTALS 168 130 117 5 -5 201 2.81 444 -14 443 -118 51 .010 .093 .008 .101


YEAR TEAM RC RCAA RCAP OWP RC/G TB EBH ISO SEC BPA IBB HBP SAC SF GIDP OUTS PA POS
TOTALS -8 -0.98 1 0 .055 .012 -.017 -2 -2 -2 0 -3 0 -21
1969 Giants 1 4.60 1 0 -.125 -.240 -.026 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 RF
1970 Giants 1 2.82 5 2 .175 .155 .167 1 0 0 0 -1 0 1 LF
1971 Giants -2 -0.70 2 1 .013 -.040 -.035 0 -1 -1 0 -1 0 -6 LF
Reds -13 -1.12 -6 5 .032 .003 -.027 -3 5 -3 0 -7 0 -35 CF
TOTALS -15 -1.03 -4 6 .027 -.007 -.029 -3 4 -4 0 -8 0 -40
1972 Reds -12 -2.50 -18 -4 -.040 -.107 -.144 -1 0 -1 0 -2 0 -24 RF
1973 Reds 3 2.71 11 4 .257 .242 .220 -1 0 0 0 0 0 0 CF
1974 Reds 1 0.17 8 6 .024 .017 .018 1 2 -1 0 -2 0 3 RF
1975 Reds 23 1.83 72 20 .100 .066 .099 5 0 -4 1 -4 0 16 LF
1976 Reds 45 2.91 102 23 .113 .115 .150 -2 1 -4 4 1 0 40 LF
1977 Reds 63 3.80 153 38 .170 .152 .183 3 2 -4 3 -5 0 47 LF
1978 Reds 37 2.17 104 30 .142 .138 .133 8 4 -5 1 -5 0 29 LF
1979 Reds 37 3.12 82 20 .129 .141 .143 2 1 -4 -1 -2 0 43 LF
1980 Reds 24 1.61 52 14 .080 .101 .082 7 -1 -4 -1 -3 0 37 LF
1981 Reds 31 2.74 69 20 .111 .119 .131 0 1 -4 1 -3 0 36 LF
1982 Mets -10 -0.62 -11 -2 .000 -.030 -.036 2 -1 -5 1 -1 0 -8 LF
1983 Mets -13 -0.71 15 4 .051 -.015 -.014 -3 1 -4 -1 -6 0 -36 LF
1984 Mets 3 0.17 38 8 .054 -.013 .019 3 4 -4 1 -2 0 -10 LF
1985 Mets 12 0.91 38 13 .069 .044 .055 -1 0 -3 1 2 0 13 LF
1986 Mets -5 -0.69 5 1 .069 .030 .000 -2 -1 -2 0 -2 0 -15 LF
White Sox -3 -2.06 -4 -1 -.009 -.068 -.097 0 0 0 0 -1 0 -6 LF
TOTALS -8 -0.98 1 0 .055 .012 -.017 -2 -2 -2 0 -3 0 -21
TOTALS 224 1.10 716 202 .082 .061 .068 20 18 -53 9 -43 0 129


Despite the run atmospheres being polar opposites Wilson still dominated his era more than Foster who did dominate his era. That said it's fun to note that the Giants dumped both players prior to their busting ou.

Tony Cloninger
01-17-2009, 10:52 AM
Okay.....I was wrong. Hack Wilson is still not a HOF to me.

westofyou
01-17-2009, 11:00 AM
Okay.....I was wrong. Hack Wilson is still not a HOF to me.

Oh you're probably right about that.

Lots of players can be placed in the HOF if we only use some of the men who we think (know) are borderline who are in there.

That's probably the weakest method and the easiest though.

RedsBaron
01-17-2009, 11:08 AM
Oh you're probably right about that.

Lots of players can be placed in the HOF if we only use some of the men who we think (know) are borderline who are in there.

That's probably the weakest method and the easiest though.

Very true. I particularly am not impressed when someone who advocates the induction of a relatively "modern" player uses as the HOF players for comparsion people who played decades ago (no offense intended Tony Cloninger), because the old veterans committee made so many mistakes in inducting players from the 1920s and 1930s.
However, a comparsion between contemporaries, some of whom are in the HOF and some of whom are not, does seem to me to be a bit better argument. For example, Luis Tiant clearly is more deserving of the HOF than is Pop Haines, but Haines played back in the 1920s-30s and is just another of Frankie Frisch's cronies to be a mistake made by the veterans committee. A much better argument for Tiant IMO is that two of his contemporaries, Catfish Hunter and Jim Bunning, are in the HOF, and Tiant is as deserving of the HOF as Hunter and Bunning.

George Anderson
01-17-2009, 11:13 AM
and is just another of Frankie Frisch's cronies to be a mistake made by the veterans committee.

What was Frisch's connection to the Veterans Committee? I have often seen his named ranked with the many who do not deserve induction to the HOF but was he also on the Veterans Committee and partially responsible for so many bad inductions to the HOF?

westofyou
01-17-2009, 11:29 AM
What was Frisch's connection to the Veterans Committee? I have often seen his named ranked with the many who do not deserve induction to the HOF but was he also on the Veterans Committee and partially responsible for so many bad inductions to the HOF?

He headed the Vets committee, applied pressure and introduced many vets from his era, that said he deserved to be in there himself for sure.

Cooper
01-17-2009, 05:05 PM
Bill James book "Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame"...is the best breakdown/analysis for what they usually look for in a player. He also does a great job in detailing the voting and the back channel stuff that occurred.

I really had no desire to read the book when i started. The HOF is not something I'm really interested in, but James is such a good writer that he overcomes reader apathy.

RedsBaron
01-18-2009, 08:53 AM
What was Frisch's connection to the Veterans Committee? I have often seen his named ranked with the many who do not deserve induction to the HOF but was he also on the Veterans Committee and partially responsible for so many bad inductions to the HOF?

Frisch was a great player, perhaps one of the top ten secondbasemen ever--he deserved HOF induction himself. The problem was that during his service in the 1970s on the Veterans Committee, which was much smaller than now, Frisch was able to get a large number of his former teammates inducted. Those selections included Jim Bottomley, George Kelly, Fred Lindstrom, Dave Bancroft, Pop Haines and Ross Youngs; while they had all been "good" players, none of them had been "great" players.
As a player Frisch was roughly comparable to Roberto Alomar, Jr., who should be inducted into the Hall of Fame next year (he probably won't be, but that's another story).
What Frisch did on the Veterans Committee would be similar to Alomar making the HOF and then a few years later being allowed to dominate a re-constituted Veterans Committee, with Alomar then engineering the selection for the HOF of Dave Stewart, John Olerud, Omar Vizquel, Bartolo Colon, Joe Carter, and Benito Santiago. All of those guys are former teammates of Alomar; all of those guys were "good" players, comparable to Bottomley, Kelly, Lindstrom, Bancroft, Haines and Youngs; and probably none of them belong in Cooperstown.

George Anderson
01-18-2009, 10:39 AM
Frisch was a great player, perhaps one of the top ten secondbasemen ever--he deserved HOF induction himself. The problem was that during his service in the 1970s on the Veterans Committee, which was much smaller than now, Frisch was able to get a large number of his former teammates inducted. Those selections included Jim Bottomley, George Kelly, Fred Lindstrom, Dave Bancroft, Pop Haines and Ross Youngs; while they had all been "good" players, none of them had been "great" players.
As a player Frisch was roughly comparable to Roberto Alomar, Jr., who should be inducted into the Hall of Fame next year (he probably won't be, but that's another story).
What Frisch did on the Veterans Committee would be similar to Alomar making the HOF and then a few years later being allowed to dominate a re-constituted Veterans Committee, with Alomar then engineering the selection for the HOF of Dave Stewart, John Olerud, Omar Vizquel, Bartolo Colon, Joe Carter, and Benito Santiago. All of those guys are former teammates of Alomar; all of those guys were "good" players, comparable to Bottomley, Kelly, Lindstrom, Bancroft, Haines and Youngs; and probably none of them belong in Cooperstown.


Thanks for the info Red Baron and WOY. I read alot last night about the Frisch situation and its really sad that he used the HOF to get his buddies inducted. George Kelly, Jim Bottomley and Harry Hooper being inducted in the HOF is really embarrasing. Baseball reference.com compared Jim Bottomly to Bob Watson of all people.

You both are right that Frisch deserved induction. A while back I thought many on another site I lurk on said he didn't deserve induction. However I guess I was confused because I looked at his career and he seemed to no doubt be worthy of induction . I think instead they were criticizing his committee and I took it to be his induction.

Mainspark
01-18-2009, 11:38 AM
I think it's safe to say that with four Hall of Famers already associated with the Big Red Machine (Bench, Morgan, Perez and Sparky) there will be at most two others eventually inducted - Dave Concepcion, who seems to have a legitimate shot at election by the veterans committee, and Pete Rose, whose only chance at the Hall will probably come posthumously, if then.
Since that era ended (with the Perez trade after the '76 season, I guess) we've likely only seen other three or four future Hall of Famers in Reds uniforms - Seaver, who's in, and Larkin and Griffey Jr. , who will be.
And maybe Lee Smith.
ADDITION: Texasdave notes I missed another Red from the 80s who will receive strong consideration for the Hall, John Franco, with 424 career saves.