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flash
12-26-2008, 10:09 PM
Some have lamented the facts that Jockety has not made a impact play of signing big star or making a trade for a big star. He certainly has changed things though since he became GM.

The outfield has been replaced completely. With the exception of Hopper all of the Reds outfielders from opening day 2008 are gone. Currently with the exception of Freel none have a job right now. I am sure Griffey and Dunn will obtain contracts, but I don't think either will earn half of what they did last year.

The catchers are also gone. I don't know if Ross has a contract yet, but I don't believe any of them will make half of what they did last year.

Hattleburg is gone. He wasn't signed by anyone else.

With the exception of Phillips,Votto and EE the Reds have completely retooled. true Gonzalez will be back at short after a year off due to injury. I had expected Turner to make some kind of splash, but that will have to be with Baltimore. I do expect him to make the Orioles out of ST, but I don't expect him to replace Roberts.

Baseball is a buisness, and the purpose of buisness is to make money. With the economy like it is Jock may be making the right moves.

Edd Roush
12-26-2008, 10:42 PM
I am sure Griffey and Dunn will obtain contracts, but I don't think either will earn half of what they did last year.



:confused: Are you kidding? Dunn was worth every penny he got last season and I think the Cubs or Angels will give Dunn at least 10 million next season even considering these trying economic times.

ChatterRed
12-27-2008, 12:04 PM
Some have lamented the facts that Jockety has not made a impact play of signing big star or making a trade for a big star. He certainly has changed things though since he became GM.

The outfield has been replaced completely. With the exception of Hopper all of the Reds outfielders from opening day 2008 are gone. Currently with the exception of Freel none have a job right now. I am sure Griffey and Dunn will obtain contracts, but I don't think either will earn half of what they did last year.

The catchers are also gone. I don't know if Ross has a contract yet, but I don't believe any of them will make half of what they did last year.

Hattleburg is gone. He wasn't signed by anyone else.

With the exception of Phillips,Votto and EE the Reds have completely retooled. true Gonzalez will be back at short after a year off due to injury. I had expected Turner to make some kind of splash, but that will have to be with Baltimore. I do expect him to make the Orioles out of ST, but I don't expect him to replace Roberts.

Baseball is a buisness, and the purpose of buisness is to make money. With the economy like it is Jock may be making the right moves.

I don't want to trade away our minors or key components of our major league squad. I'd like to see them develop and see what we got.

Having said that, I would have liked to have signed Randy Johnson to a 1 year deal for $8 million. Woulda been nice to have a solid lefty in the 5th spot of the rotation, at a reasonable price. Seems like other teams do deals like this and the Reds just twiddle their thumbs.

BEETTLEBUG
12-27-2008, 04:31 PM
True it would have been nice to have signed Randy Johnson for 8 Million but he wanted to stay on West Coast and Cincinnati is not there.

Bip Roberts
12-27-2008, 04:36 PM
Randy Johnson for 8 million is pretty goofy if you ask me. goofy bad.

I(heart)Freel
12-27-2008, 07:02 PM
True it would have been nice to have signed Randy Johnson for 8 Million but he wanted to stay on West Coast and Cincinnati is not there.

Ding ding ding.

Seems to me people have to remember that free agents and players with no trade clauses (Peavy et al.) have to WANT to come to Cincinnati. You can't just say, "We should've offered Player X the same contract that Team Y offered! We'd be so much better!"

The phrase is, it takes two to tango. Ask Jimmy Bowden.

Red in Atl
12-28-2008, 03:52 PM
Some have lamented the facts that Jockety has not made a impact play of signing big star or making a trade for a big star. He certainly has changed things though since he became GM.

The outfield has been replaced completely. With the exception of Hopper all of the Reds outfielders from opening day 2008 are gone. Currently with the exception of Freel none have a job right now. I am sure Griffey and Dunn will obtain contracts, but I don't think either will earn half of what they did last year.

The catchers are also gone. I don't know if Ross has a contract yet, but I don't believe any of them will make half of what they did last year.

Hattleburg is gone. He wasn't signed by anyone else.

With the exception of Phillips,Votto and EE the Reds have completely retooled. true Gonzalez will be back at short after a year off due to injury. I had expected Turner to make some kind of splash, but that will have to be with Baltimore. I do expect him to make the Orioles out of ST, but I don't expect him to replace Roberts.

Baseball is a buisness, and the purpose of buisness is to make money. With the economy like it is Jock may be making the right moves.

Well said Flash.

This team is much improved from ST-OD last year. I'm ready to start playing right now. We may not be the Yankees, but I'd much rather have young, hungry players, who hopefully remember the importance of fundamentals instead of how much money his broker can make him during this financial crisis.

1. Taveras CF .285, 70 SB's
2. BP 2nd .305, 37 SB's, 32 HR's
3. Votto 1st .310, 35 HR's, 110 RBI's
4. Edwin 3rd .275, 35 HR's, 120 RBI's
5. Bruce RF .285, 38 HR's, 125 RBI's
6. D'kerson/Hairstrom LF .280, 40 SB's combined
7. Gonzo/Kepp SS .275, 80 RBI's combined
8. Hern/Harrigan C .260, 20HR's, 60 RBI's combined

Why worry about a RH bat when we have one. He just needs to step it up a bit. A real lead off man, BP can stop swinging for the fences, stress fundamentals all year, good defense up the middle, Votto and Bruce challenge each other all year.

I think the fun has just begun. And then look at the pitching staff.

1. Volquez
2. Harang
3. Cueto
4. Arroyo
5. Owings/Bailey/Rodriguez/Thompson

Bullpen: Weathers, Rhodes, Bray, Burton, Lincoln, Cordero plus one or two of the guys who don't make the starting staff

Bench: Hopper, Hairston, Castillo, Hanigan

This is a young, fast, defense minded hungry group. Some good guys are missing too. Trade bait if they do well in ST? If they are looking good by June, you still have the ability to strengthen the team with out cleaning out the cupboards.

I say it every year, and I said it last year for sure, but I think this team has more potential than any Reds team since 2000.

GO REDS!!!

CesarGeronimo
12-28-2008, 04:24 PM
Well said Flash.

This team is much improved from ST-OD last year. I'm ready to start playing right now. We may not be the Yankees, but I'd much rather have young, hungry players, who hopefully remember the importance of fundamentals instead of how much money his broker can make him during this financial crisis.

1. Taveras CF .285, 70 SB's
2. BP 2nd .305, 37 SB's, 32 HR's
3. Votto 1st .310, 35 HR's, 110 RBI's
4. Edwin 3rd .275, 35 HR's, 120 RBI's
5. Bruce RF .285, 38 HR's, 125 RBI's
6. D'kerson/Hairstrom LF .280, 40 SB's combined
7. Gonzo/Kepp SS .275, 80 RBI's combined
8. Hern/Harrigan C .260, 20HR's, 60 RBI's combined

Why worry about a RH bat when we have one. He just needs to step it up a bit. A real lead off man, BP can stop swinging for the fences, stress fundamentals all year, good defense up the middle, Votto and Bruce challenge each other all year.

I think the fun has just begun. And then look at the pitching staff.

1. Volquez
2. Harang
3. Cueto
4. Arroyo
5. Owings/Bailey/Rodriguez/Thompson

Bullpen: Weathers, Rhodes, Bray, Burton, Lincoln, Cordero plus one or two of the guys who don't make the starting staff

Bench: Hopper, Hairston, Castillo, Hanigan

This is a young, fast, defense minded hungry group. Some good guys are missing too. Trade bait if they do well in ST? If they are looking good by June, you still have the ability to strengthen the team with out cleaning out the cupboards.

I say it every year, and I said it last year for sure, but I think this team has more potential than any Reds team since 2000.

GO REDS!!!

Well, since you say they should be great every year, and it turns out that they're not, should you perhaps learn something from that experience? That "more potential" team last year ended up 74-88.

For next season, you predict that every player in the Reds' lineup makes dramatic improvement, which would be fantastic, but isn't going to happen. Surely, you know that. Brandon Phillips is going to jump from a .261 BA to .310? Edwin is going to rocket from .251 and 68 RBIs to .275 and 120 RBIs. Votto will leap from 24 HRs and 84 RBIs to 35 HRs and 110 RBIs. Jay Bruce will be the Reds third potential MVP candidate with 38 HRs and 125 RBIs.

In 2008, there were nine players in the NL with 110 RBIs or more, but according to your prognosis, the Reds alone will have three such players in 2009.

At least you're used to being let down once the season actually begins.

gedred69
12-28-2008, 07:05 PM
Well said Flash.

This team is much improved from ST-OD last year. I'm ready to start playing right now. We may not be the Yankees, but I'd much rather have young, hungry players, who hopefully remember the importance of fundamentals instead of how much money his broker can make him during this financial crisis.

1. Taveras CF .285, 70 SB's
2. BP 2nd .305, 37 SB's, 32 HR's
3. Votto 1st .310, 35 HR's, 110 RBI's
4. Edwin 3rd .275, 35 HR's, 120 RBI's
5. Bruce RF .285, 38 HR's, 125 RBI's
6. D'kerson/Hairstrom LF .280, 40 SB's combined
7. Gonzo/Kepp SS .275, 80 RBI's combined
8. Hern/Harrigan C .260, 20HR's, 60 RBI's combined

Why worry about a RH bat when we have one. He just needs to step it up a bit. A real lead off man, BP can stop swinging for the fences, stress fundamentals all year, good defense up the middle, Votto and Bruce challenge each other all year.

I think the fun has just begun. And then look at the pitching staff.

1. Volquez
2. Harang
3. Cueto
4. Arroyo
5. Owings/Bailey/Rodriguez/Thompson

Bullpen: Weathers, Rhodes, Bray, Burton, Lincoln, Cordero plus one or two of the guys who don't make the starting staff

Bench: Hopper, Hairston, Castillo, Hanigan

This is a young, fast, defense minded hungry group. Some good guys are missing too. Trade bait if they do well in ST? If they are looking good by June, you still have the ability to strengthen the team with out cleaning out the cupboards.

I say it every year, and I said it last year for sure, but I think this team has more potential than any Reds team since 2000.

GO REDS!!!

While your projected #'s might be a bit overly optimistic, I agree essentially that this will be a young, hungry team. I would add to the LF picture as a power platoon facing RH pitching, Dorn. One of the Enquirer guys made mention of all the Reds' top prospects, (Valaika, Frazier, etc.) Dorn was the only guy who could step to the plate at GABP in '09, and not be over-matched. (Against RH anyway).

Red in Atl
12-29-2008, 03:16 PM
Well, since you say they should be great every year, and it turns out that they're not, should you perhaps learn something from that experience? That "more potential" team last year ended up 74-88.

For next season, you predict that every player in the Reds' lineup makes dramatic improvement, which would be fantastic, but isn't going to happen. Surely, you know that. Brandon Phillips is going to jump from a .261 BA to .310? Edwin is going to rocket from .251 and 68 RBIs to .275 and 120 RBIs. Votto will leap from 24 HRs and 84 RBIs to 35 HRs and 110 RBIs. Jay Bruce will be the Reds third potential MVP candidate with 38 HRs and 125 RBIs.

In 2008, there were nine players in the NL with 110 RBIs or more, but according to your prognosis, the Reds alone will have three such players in 2009.

At least you're used to being let down once the season actually begins.

Can you read? Looks to me like I said they had POTENTIAL every year, and the most POTENTIAL since 2000. Does anyone on this board not think the 2009 Reds have more POTENTIAL than any other team since 2000?

Are the stats padded? Of FRAKKING course. I'm sitting around bored the Sunday after Christmas, dreaming of sun, baseball and my team overachieving. Why does that bother you so much? Why does hope for a better tomorrow bother you so much? And after looking at them again and looking at career numbers, they may be inflated, but they are doable by everyone of those guys.

Please remember the name of this site. "REDSZONE. FOR REDS FANS BY REDS FANS". It's not for "For Wanna-bee sports writers by wanna-bee sports writers who have decided that their opinion is by far the best and only one that matters!"

I've been a fan for 34 years, so I know a little about dissapointment. And I also know that ST is about optimism, the All-Star Break is about false hope for the Bengals and the trading deadline is about giving up for the season or completely giving up for the next 5 years. So spare me any lectures about what I should be expecting. ;)

CesarGeronimo
12-29-2008, 03:49 PM
Red in Atl. - I share your hope for a better baseball future. I'd just like to see the Reds make moves that actually take them forward to that future. The Willy Taveras move is a step in the wrong direction, in my opinion, and having Walt suggest that he may not be able to bring in anybody better than Jerry Hairston for LF makes me think the 2009 team has a good chance of ending up with less potential than last year's 74-88 bunch.

I know the Reds are holding onto their top prospects and I agree with that. But to remove the best hitter from a poor 2008 team and not at least replace him with another good bat will be a recipe for failure. I'm not into this whole idea that we'll think positively every offseason no matter what and we should just accept and praise whatever moves the front office makes. I think the fans should demand better than they've received over the past decade in Cincy and I'm infuriated that many are so complacent as to just buy into whatever management tells them. This is a great baseball city. It was a great baseball franchise as I was growing up. It can become that again if the team handles its youngsters wisely, spends some money to fill in the holes with good players and makes better decisions than hiring a bad hitter to hit leadoff.

And when you start posting on here - like you did in the main Taveras thread - that "Taveras will hit .285 and steal 70 bases while playing gold defense" and yet "many will cry about that, too," you are implying that everyone should embrace your rosy outlook. Maybe I should be nicer in the way I say it and I'll try to do that, but just projecting that the team will be good because every player is going to be much better than last season is, to me, just a way of avoiding any serious conversation about what management needs to do to make the Reds better than their competitors. I think it's fair to point out that the team still has some significant weaknesses and the outfield is looking like it could be one of the biggest ones, which is disappointing given Walt's talk about finding a big righthanded bat being the No. 1 off-season priority.

fewfirstchoice
12-29-2008, 04:52 PM
This Reds team is just one right handed power hitting left fielder away from contending. With Burrell and Dye both sitting right in front of Walts face I cant understand why he doesnt jump at one of them. The Reds payroll with the way it is right now sit at around 66-67 million dollars, that is if Taveras is getting around 3 or 3 mil for next year. Walt said he expects the payroll to be in the 80 million to 85 million range. The Reds need 2 players 1 more to feel out the bench and a right handed power guy. That leaves around 13 to 18 million to get it done. I have to believe Walt can get something done with that money. If Harriston wants more than 2 mil. a year let him walk and sign Miles to take his place. trade for Dye and take on his money but only giv up one good prospect not 2 if you take all the money. Or sign Burrell to a 3 year 40 mil. contract. Those 2 moves would give the Reds a playoff caliber team with in there payroll budget.

Lineup
C-Hernandez 5 mil.
1B- Votto 1 mil. but he not making quite that much
2b- Phillips 5 mil.
3B- EE probably get around 3 or 4 mil next year
SS- Gonzo 5 mil.
LF- Burrell or Dye 12 mil.
CF- Taveras 2 or 3 mil hopefully no more
RF- Bruce same as Votto
thats around 34 mil. for the starting lineup

rotation
1) Harang 11 mil
2) Volquez around 1 or 2 mil.
3) Arroyo 9 mil.
4) Cueto 1 mil or under
5) Owings under a million
thats about 23 mil. for a pretty darn good rotation

bull pen
CL- Cordero 12 mil.
Burton 2 mil probably
Weathers 2 mil probably
Lincoln 1.5 mil for this year
Masset or Bailey or someone under a million
Bray about a million
RHodes 2 mil.
thats 21 million for a solid pen

Bench
Keppinger 1 mil.
Hopper under a million probably
Dickerson about half a million
Hannigan same as Dickerson
Say Harriston signs for 2 million
thats 5 or 6 million for the bench

Overall a payroll of around 83 million. Walt can amke it work but will he? If he does the Reds would field a pretty good team.

WildcatFan
12-29-2008, 05:00 PM
I think I agree with everybody here. I am optimistic about the season, but it is mostly because of the pitching staff. The glaring hole is obviously the outfield, especially when you compare it to last season. Going into spring training last year, the outfield was Dunn-Freel-Griffey with Patterson and Hopper as the extra guys. Going in this year, it will be Dickerson/mystery LF-Taveras-Bruce with Hopper and another question mark. That's a young, unproven group in three positions that have historically been vital to the Reds' offensive success.

Do I think Bruce can break out and have a good-great year? Yes. Do I think Taveras can contribute as a league-average center fielder? Yes. Do I think Walt can still sign an impact left fielder to solidify the cleanup spot? Yes. But those three are all big ifs and, in my opinion, crucial to the Reds contending this year.

This is a problem that would have arisen even if Wayne Krivsky were still the GM. Walt hasn't done anything wrong that got us into this mess (although I may sing a different tune after watching Taveras for a month or so). I still believe that he will field the best team possible in 2009 while looking at 2010 as THE year.

That said, I REALLY want to make the playoffs this season.

Griffey012
12-29-2008, 06:35 PM
No to Burrell, we might as well bring back Dunn, basically the same player with the same issues, one is a right handed and one is left handed. As much back and forth bantering as there was on this board over Dunn, I don't want to see it come back with Burrell.

Larkinfan_11
12-29-2008, 07:42 PM
one change i would like to see is us sticking with a lineup for weeks straight.....Reds always seem to have a rotation at one position can we just pick 8 guys and go with it.....

WildcatFan
12-29-2008, 07:58 PM
You still have to make adjustments for slumps, streaks, minor league promotions, opposing pitchers, etc. I wouldn't stick to a lineup for the principle of it. Especially this year, the Reds are going to have to shuffle lineups early to see what works.

TheBigLebowski
12-29-2008, 08:07 PM
I am one of the very few who is optimistic about '09. Very optimistic.

Wasn't doing backflips over the acquisition of Tavares but he should certainly be an upgrade over The Corey Patterson-Baker Experience.

We grab a decent RH bat for the middle of this order and I'm feeling very good about things.

I like Owings more than most and think he will have a lot of value as the 5th starter.

Our bullpen could be one of the best in the NL.

Our starting rotation should easily be one of the most formidable in the NL, if not all of baseball.

Volquez, Cueto, Bruce and Votto should all improve/grow in their 2nd full seasons in the NL.

Harang should return to form.

I've long felt that EE's breakout season will be '09. However, I would not have my feelings hurt one bit if we brought in a new 3B with a decent bat and moved EE to RF.

I know there are a lot of suppositions above and many will claim that my prediction for success in 09 depends on a lot of things going right and I would not offer too much opposition to that argument. Still, when you really look at what I've outlined, none of it is really all that far-fetched.

Anyways, I'm excited about 2009. Just gimme that one additional bat..

Griffey012
12-29-2008, 08:26 PM
I am one of the very few who is optimistic about '09. Very optimistic.

Wasn't doing backflips over the acquisition of Tavares but he should certainly be an upgrade over The Corey Patterson-Baker Experience.

We grab a decent RH bat for the middle of this order and I'm feeling very good about things.

I like Owings more than most and think he will have a lot of value as the 5th starter.

Our bullpen could be one of the best in the NL.

Our starting rotation should easily be one of the most formidable in the NL, if not all of baseball.

Volquez, Cueto, Bruce and Votto should all improve/grow in their 2nd full seasons in the NL.

Harang should return to form.

I've long felt that EE's breakout season will be '09. However, I would not have my feelings hurt one bit if we brought in a new 3B with a decent bat and moved EE to RF.

I know there are a lot of suppositions above and many will claim that my prediction for success in 09 depends on a lot of things going right and I would not offer too much opposition to that argument. Still, when you really look at what I've outlined, none of it is really all that far-fetched.

Anyways, I'm excited about 2009. Just gimme that one additional bat..

I'm on board with you, everything except moving EE to RF, I would much prefer him in left if he were to move as Jay Bruce is gonna be holding down RF for many years. I am excited about the many possibilities we have as a 5th starter, from the likes of Owings, Ramon Ramirez, and Thompson. Right now, I don't see Bailey as any sort of option until he proves himself against in the minors. I am also really hoping this is EE's breakout season defensively, he has the ability, he just needs to harness it. Here's to hoping we get a LF'er with a stick, but do not give up to much to get it. Spending 10+ million on the FA's out there would probably be a waste, I would much rather pursue a Swisher, Nady or Vernon Wells type through trade.

Nasty_Boy
12-29-2008, 08:42 PM
This thread = :bang::lol::lol::lol::lol::explode::bowrofl:

Steviejoe
12-29-2008, 09:00 PM
Seems that when the owner took over,he was talking of winning now.Were alone way from now and probably farther than when he took over.Bullpens o.k. starting pitching if as last year will be o.k. other than that who knows.Solid at 1b,2b,rf thats it.No idea who's at short,never know which ee will show up each day,great hitter-terriable fielder or great fielder or hitter who swings at anything in the same zip code.Dickerson/Hopper platoon in left,Wiley Traveras in center-looks closer to a player named Patterson than Geronimo.Anybody really looked at this picture and say=wewe better than last ,did not see last season.

Griffey012
12-29-2008, 09:41 PM
Seems that when the owner took over,he was talking of winning now.Were alone way from now and probably farther than when he took over.Bullpens o.k. starting pitching if as last year will be o.k. other than that who knows.Solid at 1b,2b,rf thats it.No idea who's at short,never know which ee will show up each day,great hitter-terriable fielder or great fielder or hitter who swings at anything in the same zip code.Dickerson/Hopper platoon in left,Wiley Traveras in center-looks closer to a player named Patterson than Geronimo.Anybody really looked at this picture and say=wewe better than last ,did not see last season.

Really? did you watch the crap that was put out there last season? Because I sat there astonished at how disappointing our team turned out to be. 74-88 record and a team that was just abysmal on the road.

How about our Ace who is consistently putting up an ERA around 3.75 and getting 15 wins, all the sudden he goes 4-16 with a 4.78 ERA.

Arroyo put up 18 quality starts, and without the abysmal 10er in 1 innings against Tor, he had a very respectable 4.35 ERA

Cueto and Volquez - filthy stuff, first full season's, can only expect them to get better.

5th starters - No josh fogg, guys like Owings, Ramirez, Thompson battling for the 5th starter spot.

Bullpen - Cordero, Burton, Rhodes, Bray, Lincoln, Roenicke, no more of Fogg, Majik, Coffey, Belisle it is simply better by subtraction

Offense - it is very likely Bruce and Votto improve, hopefully Phillips is out of the 4 hole and puts up 07 numbers. Taveras will post a .330 obp most likely or better, and well that is a whole lot better than most of the people on our team. WE gain about 600 wasted AB's between Bako and Patterson. Ramon Hernandez is going to be a pretty good upgrade at catcher even if he just hit .250, if has the potential to hit 20hr's and bat .270. If AGon plays SS and is healthy we have an upgrade, if not we can man it with what we have.

And most importantly, the off season is not over, we have the most competent GM we have had here in a long time so we can expect moves to be made to improve us in the short term, but not hamper us in the long term. Such as blowing a lot of money just to make a splash such as a Milton signing.

But if you want to be very pessimistic, then enjoy the long off-season, meanwhile I will be pumped of for opening day.

Larkinfan_11
12-30-2008, 12:20 AM
Wildcat....we have shuffled lineups every year. No matter what time of the year it is. There should be no minor league call ups beginning of year. Can't we keep a lineup for a month? when was the last time we did that. Let guys play together for a bit before you start trying to give guys days off. And no one under 25 should need days off first month of year as it is.

Larkinfan_11
12-30-2008, 12:22 AM
and I am optimistic for this year....I am every year don't jump to any conclusions until I see the team take the field, however I would just like to see some things done differently by coach.

WildcatFan
12-30-2008, 10:16 AM
Wildcat....we have shuffled lineups every year. No matter what time of the year it is. There should be no minor league call ups beginning of year. Can't we keep a lineup for a month? when was the last time we did that. Let guys play together for a bit before you start trying to give guys days off. And no one under 25 should need days off first month of year as it is.

So what do you do if Bruce goes 3-for-35 to start the season? Leave him in the third spot where he's hurting the team? Or move him down until he figures it out? What if Edwin starts off batting .430 with six HRs in the first 10 games? Leave him in the sixth spot? I'm just saying that hardfast rules like 'no lineup changes for a month' are counterproductive in that you are not maximizing production from your players at their current level. I don't think you should draw lineups from a hat, but I don't think they should be written in Sharpie, either.

Griffey012
12-30-2008, 10:46 AM
So what do you do if Bruce goes 3-for-35 to start the season? Leave him in the third spot where he's hurting the team? Or move him down until he figures it out? What if Edwin starts off batting .430 with six HRs in the first 10 games? Leave him in the sixth spot? I'm just saying that hardfast rules like 'no lineup changes for a month' are counterproductive in that you are not maximizing production from your players at their current level. I don't think you should draw lineups from a hat, but I don't think they should be written in Sharpie, either.

sometime's it is better to leave something be then to try and fix it. It Edwin is doing that in the 6 hole, then leave him there and don't change a thing until he finishes off his hot streak. By moving him you might mess him up and then you have 2 guys batting 3 for 35 instead of 1. But I understand what both of you are arguing, but I think the best way is a combination of the two. More lineup continuity would be good for the sake of the hitters being able to show up to the ball park knowing where they are going to be and knowing most likely who is in front and who is behind. That gives them a better idea of the pitches they will be seeing. But if we have people consistantly under -performing like Phillips in the 4 spot a change better be made.

WildcatFan
12-30-2008, 10:53 AM
I guess I'm under the philosophy that a player's plate approach doesn't change depending on which spot in the lineup he bats in. I think the approach only changes depending on how many people are on base. So the player hitting the best should get the most opportunities to drive in runs. I don't think moving Edwin from 6th to 4th during a streak would ruin him.

Griffey012
12-30-2008, 02:53 PM
I guess I'm under the philosophy that a player's plate approach doesn't change depending on which spot in the lineup he bats in. I think the approach only changes depending on how many people are on base. So the player hitting the best should get the most opportunities to drive in runs. I don't think moving Edwin from 6th to 4th during a streak would ruin him.

I think it holds true for certain spots in the order. Batting leadoff is going to change a hitter's approach because they may not be hacking at the first pitch, they are going to want to see more pitches, etc. Batting 3rd and 4th in the order really effects the pitches a hitter see's because 3 and 4 always see the more selective pitches coming from a pitcher. It doesn't necessarily change the approach but will change their outcomes. And especially with the 4 spot it is just baseball nature for the hitter to try to hit for more power then they would in say the 2, 6, 7, or 8. Just look at Phillips last year. But many positions are also not going to change a guys approach, basically every spot except for 1,3,4 shouldn't have an effect on their approach, but with a lot of the mental aspects of the game those 3 spots will have an effect on the mental approach to hitting.

mound_patrol
12-30-2008, 03:11 PM
Can you read? Looks to me like I said they had POTENTIAL every year, and the most POTENTIAL since 2000. Does anyone on this board not think the 2009 Reds have more POTENTIAL than any other team since 2000?

Are the stats padded? Of FRAKKING course. I'm sitting around bored the Sunday after Christmas, dreaming of sun, baseball and my team overachieving. Why does that bother you so much? Why does hope for a better tomorrow bother you so much? And after looking at them again and looking at career numbers, they may be inflated, but they are doable by everyone of those guys.

Please remember the name of this site. "REDSZONE. FOR REDS FANS BY REDS FANS". It's not for "For Wanna-bee sports writers by wanna-bee sports writers who have decided that their opinion is by far the best and only one that matters!"

I've been a fan for 34 years, so I know a little about dissapointment. And I also know that ST is about optimism, the All-Star Break is about false hope for the Bengals and the trading deadline is about giving up for the season or completely giving up for the next 5 years. So spare me any lectures about what I should be expecting. ;)

No need to bash someone on here for going against your opinions. He just pointed out that you have very lofty expectations for this years team. And while you may be bored and throwing out some numbers he is trying to be more realistic. I tend to agree with him. I dont see Votto, EE, and Bruce having that many RBI's. Especially with Taveras and Phillips hitting in front of them with your lineup. Those two are out machines.

Larkinfan_11
12-30-2008, 04:51 PM
Approaches should change based on where they are in the lineup or else there are major issues. EE can go up there and hack at 6 spot because there isn't expected to be much production from 7, 8, and 9 hitters. Where ass 3, 4, and 5 we expect production. Likewise if you hit leadoff you try everything to get on because you are expecting production from 3, 4, and 5. If Bruce starts the season 3/35 also got problems. Beginning of year is the hitters time pitchers are the ones that get off to bad starts....and if that did happen yes I would leave him in, baseball is a law of averages game. See Dunn's stats last 4 years.

WildcatFan
12-31-2008, 11:40 AM
Definitely disagree with you there. The approach at the plate should always be 'Get on base.' You should never 'go up there and hack' in the 6,7,8 spots because nobody expects production there. That's bad baseball, and that is what kills teams. Leadoff, cleanup, eighth spot — everybody should be trying to get on base. The reason you have lineups the way they are is to emphasize strenghts — power, speed, etc. So put the players in the spots that utilize their strengths, which sometimes means moving the hot bat up or dropping someone in a big slump a couple of spots until he regresses back to his usual strength. NEVER 'go up there and hack' because you don't have faith in the bottom third of your lineup.

Larkinfan_11
12-31-2008, 03:02 PM
Sorry I guess I missed that last couple of years when the bottom of our lineup was productive.

I don't be go up there and swing as hard as you can so your front hip flies open, hand flies off the bat, and you step in the bucket. A player can have a different approach at the plate when he is at different spots in the order. Sure everyone wants to "Get on base" but that isn't realistic, and a good at bat can be different than just getting on base. How about a sac fly?

WildcatFan
12-31-2008, 03:54 PM
You're proving my point that plate approach is based on who's on base and not position in the lineup.

redsfandan
12-31-2008, 06:02 PM
Sorry I guess I missed that last couple of years when the bottom of our lineup was productive.

I don't be go up there and swing as hard as you can so your front hip flies open, hand flies off the bat, and you step in the bucket. A player can have a different approach at the plate when he is at different spots in the order. Sure everyone wants to "Get on base" but that isn't realistic, and a good at bat can be different than just getting on base. How about a sac fly?

I understood the previous sentence and I understood the following two sentences. I think I'll have to wait til tomorrow when I'm less than 100% to see if I understand that "sentence" in bold. :p: