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RedsBaron
01-21-2009, 03:41 PM
It is being reported that Jeff Kent will announce his retirement.
Should he make the Hall of Fame? Yes.
Will he make the Hall of Fame? I don't know; it will probably take him a few years.

Ravenlord
01-21-2009, 04:43 PM
this makes it more economically feasible for the Dodgers to chase Manny.

also i have trouble with the idea of Kent being in the Hall (which i think he should) before Lou Whitaker and Alan Trammel.

Ravenlord
01-21-2009, 05:01 PM
Age AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG
24 305 52 73 21 2 11 50 27 76 2 3 239 310 430
25 496 65 134 24 0 21 80 30 88 4 4 270 320 446
26 415 53 121 24 5 14 68 23 84 1 4 292 341 475
27 472 65 131 22 3 20 65 29 89 3 3 278 327 464
28 437 61 124 27 1 12 54 31 78 6 4 284 330 432
29 580 90 145 38 2 29 121 48 133 11 3 250 316 472
30 526 94 156 37 3 31 128 48 110 9 4 297 359 555
31 511 86 148 40 2 23 101 61 112 13 6 290 366 511
32 587 114 196 41 7 33 125 90 107 12 9 334 424 596
33 607 84 181 49 6 22 106 65 96 7 6 298 369 507
34 623 102 195 42 2 37 108 52 101 5 1 313 368 565
35 505 77 150 39 1 22 93 39 85 6 2 297 351 509
36 540 96 156 34 8 27 107 49 96 7 3 289 348 531
37 553 100 160 36 0 29 105 72 85 6 2 289 377 512
38 407 61 119 27 3 14 68 55 69 1 2 292 385 477
39 494 78 149 36 1 20 79 57 61 1 3 302 375 500
40 440 42 123 23 1 12 59 25 52 0 1 280 327 418
Career 8498 1320 2461 560 47 377 1518 801 1522 94 60 290 356 500
AVG 599 93 174 40 3 27 107 56 107 7 4 290 356 500

Cyclone792
01-21-2009, 05:03 PM
Kent deserves to get in, IMO, as I believe he's pretty easily amongst the top 15 2B of all-time. Of course, I also think he's neck-and-neck with Bobby Grich, and Grich isn't in (Kent the better hitter, Grich the better fielder, overall value extremely close). I'd take both over Joe Gordon, whoI think is borderline yet just got elected via the Vets' Committee this year.

I'd probably rank the top 20 second basemen of all-time something like this:

1. Eddie Collins
2. Rogers Hornsby
3. Joe Morgan (I go back-and-forth on Collins/Hornsby/Morgan often; this is very interchangeable, IMO)
4) Nap Lajoie
5) Craig Biggio (easy HOFer, IMO)
6) Jackie Robinson
7) Roberto Alomar (easy HOFer, IMO)
8) Charlie Gehringer
9) Ryne Sandberg
10) Frankie Frisch
11) Rod Carew
12) Jeff Kent
13) Bobby Grich
14) Larry Doyle
15) Billy Herman
16) Joe Gordon
17) Nellie Fox
18) Lou Whitaker
19) Bobby Doerr
20) Willie Randolph

Chase Utley has a pretty good chance of joining this group somewhere. It'll be fun seeing how his career unfolds and what type of historic 2B Utley develops into.

Unassisted
01-21-2009, 05:10 PM
Having the highest career HR total for a 2B should help his HOF case.

paulrichjr
01-21-2009, 05:17 PM
Having the highest career HR total for a 2B should help his HOF case.

Doing it during the steroids era won't help though. I'm not saying he did it but I think a lot of voters will hold it against anyone that played during this time that hit a lot of home runs.

cincrazy
01-21-2009, 07:10 PM
Kent deserves to get in, IMO, as I believe he's pretty easily amongst the top 15 2B of all-time. Of course, I also think he's neck-and-neck with Bobby Grich, and Grich isn't in (Kent the better hitter, Grich the better fielder, overall value extremely close). I'd take both over Joe Gordon, whoI think is borderline yet just got elected via the Vets' Committee this year.

I'd probably rank the top 20 second basemen of all-time something like this:

1. Eddie Collins
2. Rogers Hornsby
3. Joe Morgan (I go back-and-forth on Collins/Hornsby/Morgan often; this is very interchangeable, IMO)
4) Nap Lajoie
5) Craig Biggio (easy HOFer, IMO)
6) Jackie Robinson
7) Roberto Alomar (easy HOFer, IMO)
8) Charlie Gehringer
9) Ryne Sandberg
10) Frankie Frisch
11) Rod Carew
12) Jeff Kent
13) Bobby Grich
14) Larry Doyle
15) Billy Herman
16) Joe Gordon
17) Nellie Fox
18) Lou Whitaker
19) Bobby Doerr
20) Willie Randolph

Chase Utley has a pretty good chance of joining this group somewhere. It'll be fun seeing how his career unfolds and what type of historic 2B Utley develops into.


Not seeing D'Angelo Jimenez on that list anywhere. You must have erred.

GADawg
01-21-2009, 07:19 PM
Dibble and and especially Seth what his face were killin' Kent on XM today though both agreed he should get in the hall. Neither could think of anything positive to say about him as a person....not a hall requirement to be sure.

MrCinatit
01-21-2009, 07:19 PM
I think he will make it, eventually. Probably not a first-year inductee - and not because of his numbers, but because of his occasional feuds. I'm not saying that is right, but I would not put it past the baseball writers (see: Blyleven, Rice).

WMR
01-21-2009, 07:20 PM
If--and this is a BIG IF--B.Phil had a couple more historic 30-30 seasons and played at a generally high level until his mid-late 30's, could he make a case for the Hall? (maybe sprinkle in another gold glove or two as well)

VR
01-21-2009, 07:24 PM
I think Kent and many others will lay low the 1st few months of the year, and then get gobbled up when teams start getting pennant fever.

Ravenlord
01-21-2009, 07:28 PM
I think he will make it, eventually. Probably not a first-year inductee - and not because of his numbers, but because of his occasional feuds. I'm not saying that is right, but I would not put it past the baseball writers (see: Blyleven, Rice).

i agree. that's why i think he won't be first ballot. but really, how many players averaged 100+ RBIs in a 162 game season, and how many of them played second base? i bet Kent's the only who played second...maybe Hornsby...

Rojo
01-21-2009, 07:32 PM
In his day, Kent would've been the perfect pairing with Dunn.

Cyclone792
01-21-2009, 07:39 PM
If--and this is a BIG IF--B.Phil had a couple more historic 30-30 seasons and played at a generally high level until his mid-late 30's, could he make a case for the Hall? (maybe sprinkle in another gold glove or two as well)

As Phillips stands now, he pretty much has little to no shot. What little shot he has involves him doing one of three things:

1) Doubling his walk rate, which makes huge OBP strides and also greatly helps him sustain that 30 HR power on an annual basis (i.e. significantly boost his SLG too). He'd then be a serious offensive weapon far beyond what he is now. As it is now, that 30 HR power will be few and far between without a boost in walks.

2) Start hitting about .320+ consistently year after year. That would also obviously enable him to become a serious offensive weapon.

3) Become this generation's version of Bill Mazeroski with the glove. And while Phillips is very good with the leather, but he's no Maz.

Phillips' seasonal win shares from 2006-08 are 14, 18, and 18. Most HOF second baggers have at least a few 30+ win share seasons (or several seasons in the high 20s).

Also, Phillips' win shares per 162 games average as a Red is 18.08 (this isn't including his abysmal production as a Cleveland Indian), and while that's a nice player, it's nowhere near HOF caliber. He pretty much has to get that number up to 23+ for his career, and that would take several seasons of the 30ish variety to do so.

WMR
01-21-2009, 08:07 PM
As Phillips stands now, he pretty much has little to no shot. What little shot he has involves him doing one of three things:

1) Doubling his walk rate, which makes huge OBP strides and also greatly helps him sustain that 30 HR power on an annual basis (i.e. significantly boost his SLG too). He'd then be a serious offensive weapon far beyond what he is now. As it is now, that 30 HR power will be few and far between without a boost in walks.

2) Start hitting about .320+ consistently year after year. That would also obviously enable him to become a serious offensive weapon.

3) Become this generation's version of Bill Mazeroski with the glove. And while Phillips is very good with the leather, but he's no Maz.

Phillips' seasonal win shares from 2006-08 are 14, 18, and 18. Most HOF second baggers have at least a few 30+ win share seasons (or several seasons in the high 20s).

Also, Phillips' win shares per 162 games average as a Red is 18.08 (this isn't including his abysmal production as a Cleveland Indian), and while that's a nice player, it's nowhere near HOF caliber. He pretty much has to get that number up to 23+ for his career, and that would take several seasons of the 30ish variety to do so.

I knew you'd have the scoop, Cyc. :D

Caveat Emperor
01-22-2009, 12:13 AM
I knew you'd have the scoop, Cyc. :D

The good news is, though, that there is absolutely no shame in being above average offensively for your position while playing great defense. I'd take that, if Phillips can provide it year in and year out.

At the end of the day, if the worst thing they can say about you is "He was good, but not Hall of Fame worthy" it means you were probably doing a lot of things right.

redsmetz
01-23-2009, 04:59 AM
Most of what this NY Times blog says has been stated here, but it's fairly thorough in its analysis:


Jeff Kent retired today with a tearful news conference at Dodger Stadium.

“About 20 years ago, I started as a college player, probably a guy who was a fringe player,” Kent said. “For the kids who want to be a baseball player someday, there’s a chance that you can play this great game. If you’re not the biggest guy, if you’re not the fastest guy, even if you’re not the smartest guy, you can still play this game.”

Kent played it very well, retiring with a .290 average, 377 homers, 1,518 runs batted in and the 2000 National League M.V.P. award. He will get support for the Hall of Fame on the strength of his rankings at position: among players with 1,000 career games at second base, Kent is the leader in homers, places second in R.B.I. and third in O.P.S. (.856) and extra-base hits (984).

But does Kent belong in Cooperstown? He was not the kind of player fans talked about on their way to the ballpark. He was never linked to steroid use, but his numbers came in an era of inflated offense.

Yet for 11 seasons (1997 through 2007), Kent hit .296 with an average of 26 homers and 104 runs batted in per season. That’s terrific production at any position, especially second base. He was a middle-of-the-order threat on five playoff teams — not the Mets, though. They traded him for Carlos Baerga in 1996 in a deal that still makes Mets fans cringe.

As for the Hall, it’s a tough call. If Kent had been an icon of a popular team, as Ryne Sandberg was for the Cubs, or if he had reached 3,000 hits, as Craig Biggio did, or if he was also exceptional in the field and on the bases, as Roberto Alomar was, there wouldn’t be much debate.

Kent was the best slugging second baseman in a sluggers’ era. I’m not sure that’s enough to put him in the Hall of Fame. But for a player picked 523rd in his draft class, it’s a heck of a career.

Jpup
01-23-2009, 08:40 AM
I think he should be a first ballot Hall of Famer. He's a top 10 second baseman IMO. He was dominant in his era for a second baseman.

Dom Heffner
01-23-2009, 08:44 AM
I agree he is a first ballot hall of famer, but sort of have to laugh a little about how it might not even be up for discussion if Kent weren't such a ________.

People tend to not care what you think when they don't need you, but the tables might be turned around come voting time.

westofyou
01-23-2009, 09:55 AM
On The Hot Stove, Kent has stated that he Dusty taught him more about the game than anyone and that he had failed to mention him in his retirement speech and that was something that he was feeling really bad about, because he was very important to him.