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reds77
01-22-2009, 11:11 AM
Per the Enquirer and Jocketty, the Reds are at payroll budget... bummer.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a6ef9e8bb-8978-4b86-8582-6906bd2fd0f3&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

Redleg39
01-22-2009, 11:13 AM
Yeah that is a bummer. really could've used another good stick in the lineup.

Nasty_Boy
01-22-2009, 11:13 AM
This is a joke! They get rid of big contracts and bring in... Willy Taveras! This team may be the worst since 2001.

redsfandan
01-22-2009, 11:13 AM
Reds Reach Payroll Limit By Tim Dierkes [January 22 at 9:03am CST]

C. Trent Rosecrans spoke to Reds brass Bob Castellini, Walt Jocketty, and Dusty Baker today. All three told him the team has reached its payroll budget.

The Reds' 2009 additions/re-signings include Ramon Hernandez ($6MM), David Weathers ($4.6MM or $3MM), Willy Taveras ($2.25MM), Jerry Hairston Jr. ($2MM), Mike Lincoln ($1.5MM), Arthur Rhodes ($2MM), and Jonny Gomes (minor league deal). Edwin Encarnacion is in line for a raise of at least $2MM. Many of the team's signed veterans have significant raises for '09.

On the flip side, the Reds will not have to pay Adam Dunn, Ken Griffey Jr., Dave Ross, Ryan Freel, Javier Valentin, Jeremy Affeldt, and Josh Fogg.

From C. Trents blog:

My Page
Thinking out loud 1.22
Thursday, January 22, 2009, 09:42 AM EST [General]

Well, not really...

Anway, a little Thursday schedule. I was just downtown at GABP as the Reds caravan was taking off -- I'll have stuff from Bob Castellini, Walt Jocketty and Dusty Baker here in a little bit. And then we'll have stories on Brandon Phillips and Yonder Alonso here in the next couple of days.

Anyway, here's the quick stuff I have from Bob, Walt and Dusty.

All three mentioned that the team is now at its budget for payroll, so don't expect any big singings.

I asked Jocketty that with the price tag coming down, would there be any interest in bringing back Adam Dunn: "I don't think so," Jocketty said.

Jocketty said Dr. Tim Kremcheck will examine Alex Gonzalez in Miami this weekend, but reports are good. Castellini didn't sound as hopeful in regards to Gonzalez.

Dusty Baker said there could be a platoon in left with Gomes, Dickerson and Hopper/Hairston. He also said Willy Taveras is his centerfielder and leadoff batter.

I'll have more later (including TOL's little brother -- Afternoon Delight)

Redleg39
01-22-2009, 11:14 AM
Haha amen to that. Hopefully not the worst since 2001 though!

BLEEDS
01-22-2009, 11:15 AM
This is not good news for 757690 and his signature...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

reds1869
01-22-2009, 11:20 AM
This is not pleasant news, but we as fans have to remember that the Reds are a business. Just like any business, they are feeling the pinch. Unfortunate, but really no different than the budget cuts being made by my employer for next year.

BLEEDS
01-22-2009, 11:25 AM
By the way, that puts the 25 man roster - what is normally considered "The Payroll" - at under $70M - not even at $69M by all calculations, even with the player asking prices on the Arbitration numbers from EE and Weathers.

I LOVE being lied to, repeatedly, by ownership.

"We are commited to winning"
"Our payroll will be in the mid $80s(millions)"
"a RH power LF-er is our #1 priority this off-season"

Good thing we have a $12M closer!

Good Lord.

I might have to seriously consider boycotting this team.

Right now the Reds are the car wreck on the side of the road that you just can't look away, but even rolling at 1 MPH, eventually you won't be able to see it anymore...

Is that the Jaws of Life being operated by DUHsty Baker?!!? That's like throwing gasoline on a fire...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

smoke6
01-22-2009, 11:33 AM
Here's to another season in Low A for me...Go Dragons!

redsfandan
01-22-2009, 12:02 PM
... Good thing we have a $12M closer! ...


... for three more years! Maybe it's not up there with Milton but that's the worst contract we have and could be one of the worst that they've made.

WildcatFan
01-22-2009, 12:08 PM
Well I know now that I have never rooted harder for a player than I will for Willy Taveras this season. Come on, .290 year!

mroby85
01-22-2009, 12:56 PM
Unbelievable! not sure why i'm surprised, but this organization is completely disgusting.

Ohioballplayer
01-22-2009, 01:02 PM
Well I know now that I have never rooted harder for a player than I will for Willy Taveras this season. Come on, .290 year!


In Great American Small Park, I highly doubt it, but I hope so and with 60-70 sb's.

BruiserUD
01-22-2009, 01:04 PM
How can you drop the contracts of Dunn and Griffey, spend a fraction of the money that was made available, and then say you are out of money? The only explanation that I can think of would be the economy is on their minds and they are holding back until they see how the economy will change heading into the 2009 baseball season. Hopefully by that time it won't be too late to make any moves...

straitpinkie
01-22-2009, 01:05 PM
Your 2009 Cincinnati Reds are hitting the road and making some stops on their annual Reds Caravan to meet their fans and get them excited for the upcoming seasons. Today, from 4:30-7:00pm, one of those stops will occur right here in the ĎVille at Louisville Slugger Field, home of its Triple-A affiliate the Louisville Bats. The event is free....

For more details go to:

http://www.straitpinkie.com/sports/reds/cincinnati-reds-caravan-makes-stop-at-louisville-slugger-field-tonight/

Nasty_Boy
01-22-2009, 01:10 PM
He may hit .290 but he'll still only have about a .310 OBP.

Nasty_Boy
01-22-2009, 01:42 PM
The Reds need to understand that if you put a good product on the field people will show up. The economy is bad, but people will come see a winning team. This is such a lame excuse to go cheap. I would have been okay with not spending money and going with the young guys, but the signing of Taveras makes the front office look like idiots. They overpaid for a non-tendered CF that is teh suck at getting on base! The also give 2 years to a league average reliever (Lincoln) that you should be able to produce from the farm system (hello Roenicke, Manuel, Fisher). This organization is a freeaking joke!

texasdave
01-22-2009, 02:00 PM
Upon reflection I think this would be the perfect time to throw out a 4-year, 40 million dollar offer to Adam Dunn. I know, I know the Dunn ship has sailed. He isn't coming back. Blah, blah, blah. Consider this: Cyndi Lauper once sang 'Money changes everything'. And, you know, Cyndi Lauper was right. Let's think this through. You are Adam Dunn and, if the rumor mill is anywhere close to being right, no team is breaking down any doors to hand you a pot filled with money. The word is out that you're looking at 5 to 8 million for 2009. And there is no real guarantee that the economy is going to get any better, meaning you could be in the same position next year. And you're gonna be a year older. Now I'll bet a guaranteed 40 (with a bunch of zeroes tacked on) dollars would look pretty sweet. 40 million would smooth over many a hard feeling. Don't you think?

Okay so maybe that is enough to get AD's attention. The next logical question would be something like 'What's in it for the Reds?'. That is a lot of money to be throwing around in troubled economic times. Yes it is. But as I see it there are two things that can happen: either the economy rebounds or it doesn't. Here's my reasoning on each of those possibilities.

The economy stays sour. Obviously this would be the worst-case scenario. But how bad would it be for the team?
1) I think they have 2009 covered as far as salaries are concerned, but are merely being cautious. The Reds' worst fear has to be that they won't contend in 2009 and there will be plenty of empty seats at GABP in the second half of the season. Adam Dunn lessens this possibility. Having his bat in the lineup will lead to more runs being scored and more wins. That is without question IMO. The Reds need a bat like his in the lineup to be competitive.
2) What happens if the economy stays sluggish from 2010 on? The Reds are actually well-situated there. They have Alonso, Frazier, Stubbs, Roenicke, Bailey, Thompson, Maloney, Dorn and others who should (hopefully) be ready to step in. Not all of them, of course, but probably enough to allow them to jettison some veterans and free up some cash. Weathers, Hernandez, Gonzalez and maybe one or two others will likely be jettisoned after the 2009 season.
3) If push comes to shove the Reds will have to stop signing trash over the winter for a year or two and push some kids ahead. That may actually be a good thing.
So, even if the economy stays bad, I believe the Reds can handle things budget-wise.
The other alternative is the economy comes back to life. If that happens - YES! The Reds then have a player of value signed to a more-than-reasonable contract. They can then either keep him in the lineup or easily move him. It's a win-win situation.

757690
01-22-2009, 02:01 PM
This is not good news for 757690 and his signature...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I still would double the bet if I could.

Anyway, I think you are right when you said that owner lied, but I am glad that he did. I would rather have the Reds focused on the future than wasting resources on an older big bat. This allows the team flexiblity to make a move midseason if they are in contention.

I am glad that Cast has seen the light and understands that with the Reds young core, a long term, build from within plan is best.

reds77
01-22-2009, 02:46 PM
If this is the route the Reds are going, not spending any money, then I think it is time to dump the arms of Harang and Arroyo for more youth and hopefully talented prospects.

If Hernandez and/or Taveras have a good year, dump them at the deadline. Get as many young studs as you can.

Anyhow, with that said, ownership's attempts to say the media spun things out of context, in reference to "win now" is complete garbage. Looks like another year of sub-par baseball in Cincinnati.

JoshFogg
01-22-2009, 03:00 PM
They are pathetic, from top to bottom.

TheBigLebowski
01-22-2009, 03:12 PM
Really tempers my optimism for the upcoming year, which was largely based upon the assumption that we would be bringing in at least one big bat via FA. This blows.

Carin4Narron
01-22-2009, 03:14 PM
If Oakland,Minnesota,Colorado, and Milwuakee can be competive in a small market on a semi regular bais, why can't the Reds!

Ghosts of 1990
01-22-2009, 03:37 PM
If Oakland,Minnesota,Colorado, and Milwuakee can be competive in a small market on a semi regular bais, why can't the Reds!

I think all those teams had managers who fit the talent a lot better, the young talent. Reds should have bought out Baker if this was gonna be the roster and found a guy who is known to be able to work with younger players. Let them grow up together. Dusty doesn't have 5 to 7 good years left I don't think.

Carin4Narron
01-22-2009, 04:39 PM
I think all those teams had managers who fit the talent a lot better, the young talent. Reds should have bought out Baker if this was gonna be the roster and found a guy who is known to be able to work with younger players. Let them grow up together. Dusty doesn't have 5 to 7 good years left I don't think. Excuse me, I heard that with Dunn,Kearns,Boone,and Reese. -Where are they? Nowhere,that's where!- Dave Miley knew those guys in the minors and couldn't get them to play well in the majors.That's Horse Pucky to put it very nicely.

ChatterRed
01-22-2009, 04:59 PM
$71 million?

They could have added Manny and still been in the low to mid $90 range and more than likely guaranteed themselves playoffs for the first time in eons. Not many teams with a payroll under $100 million are making the playoffs these days, except for those like the Rays who put it together for one season with low priced guys hitting their prime and best years. Doesn't happen much.

For $95 million, they could have taken this city by storm. But they blew it once again.

mlh1981
01-22-2009, 05:01 PM
By the way, that puts the 25 man roster - what is normally considered "The Payroll" - at under $70M - not even at $69M by all calculations, even with the player asking prices on the Arbitration numbers from EE and Weathers.

I LOVE being lied to, repeatedly, by ownership.

"We are commited to winning"
"Our payroll will be in the mid $80s(millions)"
"a RH power LF-er is our #1 priority this off-season"

Good thing we have a $12M closer!

Good Lord.

I might have to seriously consider boycotting this team.

Right now the Reds are the car wreck on the side of the road that you just can't look away, but even rolling at 1 MPH, eventually you won't be able to see it anymore...

Is that the Jaws of Life being operated by DUHsty Baker?!!? That's like throwing gasoline on a fire...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Thankfully, noone else in that division outside of the Cubs looks to be very competitive this season. All have either suffered too many losses in the free agent market, or have done absolutely nothing this offseason. I think the Reds can leapfrog several teams this year.

Newport Red
01-22-2009, 05:16 PM
Excuse me, I heard that with Dunn,Kearns,Boone,and Reese. -Where are they? Nowhere,that's where!- Dave Miley knew those guys in the minors and couldn't get them to play well in the majors.That's Horse Pucky to put it very nicely.


They didn't have pitching.

Newport Red
01-22-2009, 05:22 PM
If this is the route the Reds are going, not spending any money, then I think it is time to dump the arms of Harang and Arroyo for more youth and hopefully talented prospects.

If Hernandez and/or Taveras have a good year, dump them at the deadline. Get as many young studs as you can.

Anyhow, with that said, ownership's attempts to say the media spun things out of context, in reference to "win now" is complete garbage. Looks like another year of sub-par baseball in Cincinnati.

I agrree with comment one. They won't be here when the young talent arrives anyway - at least one won't.

As to comment three, I think Bob finally realizes that his mad dash to the Owner's Wing at Cooperstown is encountering some serious speed bumps.

Carin4Narron
01-22-2009, 05:26 PM
They didn't have pitching.Your point?

DannyB
01-22-2009, 05:40 PM
For the record, here is what Bob Castellini said when he took over as Reds owner Friday, Jan. 20, 2006:

"We’re buying the Reds to win. Anything else is unacceptable. We will not rest until we put a winner on the field – year in and year out."

Other Castellini snippets from that day:

"The bottom line is that we are not going to rest until our fans are happy. My wife, Susie, has a pillow in our living room. Stitched into the pillow is the phrase, 'If Mama ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy.’ In the Reds organization, if our fans ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy."

"I want to make a promise today to Reds fans, a promise from one fan to another: We will bring championship baseball to Cincinnati."

Carin4Narron
01-22-2009, 05:47 PM
For the record, here is what Bob Castellini said when he took over as Reds owner Friday, Jan. 20, 2006:

"Weíre buying the Reds to win. Anything else is unacceptable. We will not rest until we put a winner on the field Ė year in and year out."

Other Castellini snippets from that day:

"The bottom line is that we are not going to rest until our fans are happy. My wife, Susie, has a pillow in our living room. Stitched into the pillow is the phrase, 'If Mama ainít happy, ainít nobody happy.í In the Reds organization, if our fans ainít happy, ainít nobody happy."

"I want to make a promise today to Reds fans, a promise from one fan to another: We will bring championship baseball to Cincinnati." If you can't do it Bobby, then get the ---- out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Newport Red
01-22-2009, 05:47 PM
Your point?

At first, I thought a misread your post. Maybe I still am.

The 4 players you mention have have varying degrees of success. Pokey Reece collected 2 gold glove awards. Aaron Boone had a promising though average career cut short through injury. Austin Kearns is doing quite well in Washington. And I am sure you are aware of Adam Dunn's situation.

Two of the four still doing quite well.

redsfanmia
01-22-2009, 06:25 PM
At first, I thought a misread your post. Maybe I still am.

The 4 players you mention have have varying degrees of success. Pokey Reece collected 2 gold glove awards. Aaron Boone had a promising though average career cut short through injury. Austin Kearns is doing quite well in Washington. And I am sure you are aware of Adam Dunn's situation.

Two of the four still doing quite well.

I dont think I would go as far as to say Kearns is doing quite well and Dunn cant seem to find a job.

steig
01-22-2009, 06:37 PM
If Oakland,Minnesota,Colorado, and Milwuakee can be competive in a small market on a semi regular bais, why can't the Reds!


At least we aren't the Pittsburgh Pirates...yet :eek:

Newport Red
01-22-2009, 07:55 PM
I dont think I would go as far as to say Kearns is doing quite well and Dunn cant seem to find a job.

I consider playing Major League baseball into your 30's as doing quite well. I think he will.

JoshFogg
01-22-2009, 08:32 PM
At first, I thought a misread your post. Maybe I still am.

The 4 players you mention have have varying degrees of success. Pokey Reece collected 2 gold glove awards. Aaron Boone had a promising though average career cut short through injury. Austin Kearns is doing quite well in Washington. And I am sure you are aware of Adam Dunn's situation.

Two of the four still doing quite well.

Please. Austin kearns is terrible, pokey reese is terrible and aaron boon is terrible. If you dont know this, then you must think the reds can win 95 games this year.

Jerry Narron
01-22-2009, 08:57 PM
At first, I thought a misread your post. Maybe I still am.

The 4 players you mention have have varying degrees of success. Pokey Reece collected 2 gold glove awards. Aaron Boone had a promising though average career cut short through injury. Austin Kearns is doing quite well in Washington. And I am sure you are aware of Adam Dunn's situation.

Two of the four still doing quite well.

If you consider a .240 average good, then Austin Kearns is great.

akron3344
01-22-2009, 09:29 PM
spending so much money ona closer(who is not great anyway) is like starting to build a football team with the long snapper

gedred69
01-22-2009, 10:16 PM
Of the former young four mentioned, Some doofus hitting coach convinced the solid Minors hitting Dunn that he should hit 60 HRs. He became the 2nd coming of Kong. Kearns was from almost day one in professional baseball injury prone, besides being a chronic whining baby. Boone was always streaky and un-reliable, Reese was counterfeit other than his "D". There is no guarantee this next group of prospects will fair any better, but I sense that Bruce is extremely dedicated to being good, and no level of horrible coaching can screw up Votto. That's a better start anyway. Now if at least a couple of the group of Valaika, Frazier, Dorn, Fransisco, Alonzo, etc., can progress on or ahead of schedule there might be a team here if not this year, hopefully the next two anyway.

JoshFogg
01-22-2009, 10:24 PM
The Cincinnati Reds, as you know them, will not be a professional franchise for much longer. If you look at all of the teams in the league, the Reds really do not deserve to have the franchise anymore. Despite the history, there is nothing present that keeps this team in Cincinnati. Nashville, Orlando, Jacksonville, Memphis, Vegas, Columbus....all of those cities can better support a team. Plus, new owners and an entire new staff would help too. by 2015....the REds will be out of Cincy...IMO

mlh1981
01-22-2009, 11:06 PM
The Cincinnati Reds, as you know them, will not be a professional franchise for much longer. If you look at all of the teams in the league, the Reds really do not deserve to have the franchise anymore. Despite the history, there is nothing present that keeps this team in Cincinnati. Nashville, Orlando, Jacksonville, Memphis, Vegas, Columbus....all of those cities can better support a team. Plus, new owners and an entire new staff would help too. by 2015....the REds will be out of Cincy...IMO

Why do you say this? Seems to me that getting a ballpark just a short 6 seasons ago all but guarantees to keep them in town a long time, and never once have I heard a rumor about the team moving. Even in lean years, they still draw decent, and from someone who lives in Pittsburgh and goes to all the Reds/Pirates game, I can vouch and say that Reds fans, even during this recent bad run, are still WAYY more into the game, and more knowledgable, than Pirates fans (although I guess 16 losing seasons will do that to ya.)

JoshFogg
01-22-2009, 11:10 PM
It just doesnt make sense to keep the reds around to finish 5th every year. same for the pirates and the royals. all 3 of these teams are the worst in the league. the nationals get a pass. Sometimes, you need to shake things up if the owners refuse to themselves. KC, Pitt and Cincy....all should be relocated.

Bip Roberts
01-22-2009, 11:28 PM
Move the Reds to a good town like Boston, they have the greatest fans ever

mroby85
01-22-2009, 11:40 PM
The fans aren't the problem, it's the people who have put a crappy product on the field for the last decade.

Captain Hook
01-22-2009, 11:54 PM
There are other teams doing things a lot worse then the Reds.The Mariners just managed to loose 100 games with a payroll over 100 mil.The Tigers had the second highest payroll in baseball and had the same record as the Reds.I won't take the time to look it up but even in succeeding Tampa Bay didn't even draw as many fans to games as the Reds did.The Yankees season last year imo has to be considered more of a failure then the Reds season was last year.I know the Reds have not had a winning season in a long time but the current coach and GM has only been around a year.While I understand the Reds have been a bit of a joke for a while now its a much bigger joke to suggest they leave town.

JoshFogg
01-22-2009, 11:59 PM
There are other teams doing things a lot worse then the Reds.The Mariners just managed to loose 100 games with a payroll over 100 mil.The Tigers had the second highest payroll in baseball and had the same record as the Reds.I won't take the time to look it up but even in succeeding Tampa Bay didn't even draw as many fans to games as the Reds did.The Yankees season last year imo has to be considered more of a failure then the Reds season was last year.I know the Reds have not had a winning season in a long time but the current coach and GM has only been around a year.While I understand the Reds have been a bit of a joke for a while now its a much bigger joke to suggest they leave town.


no. you are incorrect. The mariners have been to the playoffs twice in the past 8 years....the tigers were in the WS 3 years ago. Dont make excuses. The reads have not been in the post season in 13 seasons, they suck, they dont spend money. They need to be moved

Captain Hook
01-23-2009, 12:14 AM
Sorry Fogg.Nothing I said was wrong.Those were all facts except my opinion about the Yankees.

BUTLER REDSFAN
01-23-2009, 12:21 AM
QUOTE=BUTLER REDSFAN;1771549]Hate to be a partypooper but you asked...Yes, I hope to eat crow but based on the last several years this is what I expect.. One or two no name-no excitement signing/trades then excuses on why we just couldnt sign anyone...then in June or July when we are 20 games out we will be cussing at the tv yet again saying "Now why we couldnt sign anyone again???[/QUOTE]........this was from a thread back during the winter meetings...I was hoping they would prove me wrong. :(

Captain Hook
01-23-2009, 12:30 AM
no. you are incorrect. The mariners have been to the playoffs twice in the past 8 years....the tigers were in the WS 3 years ago. Dont make excuses. The reads have not been in the post season in 13 seasons, they suck, they dont spend money. They need to be moved

12 of the 30 teams in MLB have lower payrolls then the Reds do.Should they all be relocated?

roby
01-23-2009, 12:35 AM
There are other teams doing things a lot worse then the Reds.The Mariners just managed to loose 100 games with a payroll over 100 mil.The Tigers had the second highest payroll in baseball and had the same record as the Reds.I won't take the time to look it up but even in succeeding Tampa Bay didn't even draw as many fans to games as the Reds did.The Yankees season last year imo has to be considered more of a failure then the Reds season was last year.I know the Reds have not had a winning season in a long time but the current coach and GM has only been around a year.While I understand the Reds have been a bit of a joke for a while now its a much bigger joke to suggest they leave town.

Is that the standard now? Just find somebody who is doing a worse job than the Reds? That sounds like a sure-fire way to never win to me! I do agree with you that the reds should not leave town...but

Captain Hook
01-23-2009, 12:47 AM
Is that the standard now? Just find somebody who is doing a worse job than the Reds? That sounds like a sure-fire way to never win to me! I do agree with you that the reds should not leave town...but

I didn't mean to make excuses for the Reds poor play.Just wanted to point out that all teams do poorly sometimes and that its no reason to call for the team to be relocated.If you get to that point you should stop watching and find another team to pull for and be careful doing so because you never know witch proud franchise could go into the tank like the Reds have lately.

redsfandan
01-23-2009, 01:39 AM
I don't want to twist this thread around but I'd expect fans to want the Bengals to move waaaaaaaaayyyy before the Reds.

The improvement of the farm system alone makes things better than they've been in years. The Reds future is in the farm system and it's promising.

timothy1
01-23-2009, 08:46 AM
This is bummer news concernign the budget, but I agree that the future is in the farm system.

Just hope for at least a decent season and hopefully, next off season, we may have mroe room to shake things up.

I wax optimistic...

Carin4Narron
01-23-2009, 10:15 AM
At least we aren't the Pittsburgh Pirates...yet :eek: They are heading that direction.

Bumstead
01-23-2009, 10:28 AM
Hey

When you blow up the farm system it takes a long time to recover. The Reds farm system is actually pretty deep right now and headed in the right direction. Are you saying that the Reds ownership is stashing away huge profits rather than paying big salaries to free agents??? If they are even making a profit on the Reds, I would guess that it is tiny. Also, when you have one team that spends $200M a year on payroll (and stashes a huge profit) and another team that spends $30M a year, then it's the sport that is screwed up, not necessarily the Reds. I would rather see the Reds build up this team through the farm system than to overpay for someone who will be here for 2 years while the Reds compile a .500 record and don't make the playoffs anyway. I've been a Reds fan for over 30 years, I can wait a couple of more! Rome wasn't built in a day...

Bum

bounty37h
01-23-2009, 11:09 AM
This is not pleasant news, but we as fans have to remember that the Reds are a business. Just like any business, they are feeling the pinch. Unfortunate, but really no different than the budget cuts being made by my employer for next year.

I agree, but the Reds have to realize its a business, and businesses have to put out a product consumers want/need, esp in hard times, if they want said consumers to still purchase and keep business in, well, business.

Old NDN
01-23-2009, 02:31 PM
It sure motivates me to get in the car, drive 31/2 hr, get scalped tickets and go to a game. The Reds sure aren't doing much to encourage the fans. I can think of a lot of things I could/should be spending $$ on, instead of Reds tickets. Now, I don't have too tough a choice to make.

redsfandan
01-23-2009, 05:41 PM
When you blow up the farm system it takes a long time to recover. The Reds farm system is actually pretty deep right now and headed in the right direction. ... I would rather see the Reds build up this team through the farm system than to overpay for someone who will be here for 2 years while the Reds compile a .500 record and don't make the playoffs anyway. I've been a Reds fan for over 30 years, I can wait a couple of more! Rome wasn't built in a day...


I agree 100%. I don't want the Reds to contend for one year and than revert back to losing records. The best way to have sustained success (especially for a mid or small market team) is to have a top farm system.

redsfanmia
01-23-2009, 06:20 PM
Big Bob has really done some good things as far as spending money in the Latin countries signing players and spending money on the minor league system. Really would getting a bat put us over the top? If anything Big Bob and crew should have not resigned Weathers and should not have signed Tavares and should not have traded for Hernandez, they should have just gone young and cheap and let this team mature. Honestly looking to deal Harang and Arroyyo should be made a priority as well, go young and go cheap.

BLEEDS
01-23-2009, 08:02 PM
I still would double the bet if I could.


I would gladly double the bet. What else would you like to wager?
This team, will now struggle to score 700 runs, forget 750...


Anyway, I think you are right when you said that owner lied, but I am glad that he did. I would rather have the Reds focused on the future than wasting resources on an older big bat. This allows the team flexiblity to make a move midseason if they are in contention.


WOW, that is a HOOT!!! Seriously, Comedy Gold!! I'm laughing because otherwise I'd cry at how absurd that is...
They'll be out of it by Memorial Day...



I am glad that Cast has seen the light and understands that with the Reds young core, a long term, build from within plan is best.

Then they might as well trade everyone making over $5M on this roster.

What's the use of having 3 $12M pitchers with this offense/defense? Harang, Arroyo, Cordero are wastes of money at this point.

Currently on Offense, CF, LF, and SS are a joke. I know Drew Stubbs will be OPS-ing .900 in 2010 according to you, but here in reality...

Sad Sad state of affairs...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BLEEDS
01-23-2009, 08:04 PM
Why do you say this? Seems to me that getting a ballpark just a short 6 seasons ago all but guarantees to keep them in town a long time, and never once have I heard a rumor about the team moving. Even in lean years, they still draw decent, and from someone who lives in Pittsburgh and goes to all the Reds/Pirates game, I can vouch and say that Reds fans, even during this recent bad run, are still WAYY more into the game, and more knowledgable, than Pirates fans (although I guess 16 losing seasons will do that to ya.)

Sure, they are about the only team the Reds can beat, of course the Reds fans are into the games played in PNC!!!

Pittsburgh might be the only team worse than the Reds, and IMO they are going to give us a run for our money for the basement in the NL Central this year...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BLEEDS
01-23-2009, 08:05 PM
Thankfully, noone else in that division outside of the Cubs looks to be very competitive this season. All have either suffered too many losses in the free agent market, or have done absolutely nothing this offseason. I think the Reds can leapfrog several teams this year.

Better get that record, it's skipping, heard this same tune last year...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BLEEDS
01-23-2009, 08:07 PM
For the record, here is what Bob Castellini said when he took over as Reds owner Friday, Jan. 20, 2006:

"Weíre buying the Reds to win. Anything else is unacceptable. We will not rest until we put a winner on the field Ė year in and year out."

Other Castellini snippets from that day:

"The bottom line is that we are not going to rest until our fans are happy. My wife, Susie, has a pillow in our living room. Stitched into the pillow is the phrase, 'If Mama ainít happy, ainít nobody happy.í In the Reds organization, if our fans ainít happy, ainít nobody happy."

"I want to make a promise today to Reds fans, a promise from one fan to another: We will bring championship baseball to Cincinnati."

Those quotes literally make me sick.

They obviously don't give a crap about any of the fans. Only the dumb ones who are impressed with the signing of Wily Tavares.

He obviously is only intent on making money - which he won't do with this team, since Nobody is going to come out to watch this team.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BLEEDS
01-23-2009, 08:15 PM
The Reds need to understand that if you put a good product on the field people will show up. The economy is bad, but people will come see a winning team. This is such a lame excuse to go cheap. I would have been okay with not spending money and going with the young guys, but the signing of Taveras makes the front office look like idiots. They overpaid for a non-tendered CF that is teh suck at getting on base! The also give 2 years to a league average reliever (Lincoln) that you should be able to produce from the farm system (hello Roenicke, Manuel, Fisher). This organization is a freeaking joke!


It sure motivates me to get in the car, drive 31/2 hr, get scalped tickets and go to a game. The Reds sure aren't doing much to encourage the fans. I can think of a lot of things I could/should be spending $$ on, instead of Reds tickets. Now, I don't have too tough a choice to make.


I agree, but the Reds have to realize its a business, and businesses have to put out a product consumers want/need, esp in hard times, if they want said consumers to still purchase and keep business in, well, business.

Agree 1,000,000%.

If Bob C thinks that people are going to come watch this pathetic team in July/August/September, he's got another thing coming.

Reds fans aren't stupid. They know this team sucks. They also heard all the lies he's told.

Sad thing is, this stadium could be sold out if they put a winner in it. Reds fans love winners. But, instead of INVESTING in a team to make it better, they are cutting back - and over-investing in crap players instead, throwing 10 $100 bills away instead of spending $1000 once.

All this team needed was a SERIOUS LF bat, and they could have lived with a no-stick/all D SS if Gonzo couldn't go, and Dickerson in CF with guys from the AAA system competing in ST for a chance to to back him up/platoon if necessary. Instead we invest $6M in a NEGATIVE VORP CF-er and JHJ for LF.

Pathetic.
Simply.
Pathetic.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Aces Wild
01-23-2009, 08:26 PM
The losing stops now.....lol. The sad thing is Bleeds I'm not even mad or angry anymore, but rather just feel pure apathy. I can say that I will not make the drive up this year to watch crappy baseball. As a matter of fact, until the Reds show they are serious about putting a decent product on the field I am done giving them my money.

I'll still watch on TV, and post here with you guys, because it's free. However, I am not going to continue to support the "Bob Cast Retirement Fund"

TheNext44
01-24-2009, 03:16 AM
I would gladly double the bet. What else would you like to wager?
This team, will now struggle to score 700 runs, forget 750...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Just so you know the bet you have between 757690 is that the Reds will score more runs in 2009 than they did in 2008. They scored 704 runs in 2008, not 750. Just making sure you know that before you double your bet.

Emin3mShady07
01-24-2009, 03:26 AM
Those quotes literally make me sick.

They obviously don't give a crap about any of the fans. Only the dumb ones who are impressed with the signing of Wily Tavares.

He obviously is only intent on making money - which he won't do with this team, since Nobody is going to come out to watch this team.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I was impressed by the signing of Willy Taveras. It was quite impressive to get rid of a guy like Freel and give a guy as poor as Taveras a two year deal, that is backloaded no less. Anyone who thinks that that move is a good thing for the reds has got an impressively optimistic outlook on life, I certainly cannot criticize that.

Emin3mShady07
01-24-2009, 03:28 AM
I am going to go to 3 reds games in Cincy this upcoming year. The white sox play down there for a 3 game set and I loved eating skyline cheese coneys:D

improbus
01-24-2009, 11:02 AM
I think baseball will be the most susceptible of the major sports to the economic downturn. They have less revenue sharing than the other leagues, larger guaranteed contracts, and a larger reliance on the gate (particularly in smaller markets). Ohio's economy stinks, and I'm sure that we will see a significant downturn in attendance around the game this year.

As a side not, I'm hoping that this trend will begin to bring ballpark prices back to a reasonable level.

redsfandan
01-24-2009, 01:20 PM
I think baseball will be the most susceptible of the major sports to the economic downturn. They have less revenue sharing than the other leagues, larger guaranteed contracts, and a larger reliance on the gate (particularly in smaller markets). Ohio's economy stinks, and I'm sure that we will see a significant downturn in attendance around the game this year. ...

It's interesting that you mention Ohio's economy cuz I think Michigan's economy is in even worse shape. Makes me wonder if it could affect the Tigers to the point where they have to unload a contract or two.

TheNext44
01-24-2009, 03:16 PM
I am glad that Walt finally talked some sense into Cast's head. The only way a mid market team can compete is to build from within, put up a solid, but not great team with a flexible payroll, coming out of spring training, hope everyone stays healthy, you get a few breaks along the way and are in contention at midseason. Then you fill in your weakness and go for it, but only when you know that you are in contention.

This is why payflex is so important to a mid market team. If you blow your wad on big name players in the off season, you don't have the resources to fix what needs to be fixed mid season, or even worse, as we found out last year, you find yourself out of it and have wasted a ton of money, and have some dead weight on your payroll.

I like this approach, as long as it is stuck to as a long term plan, and Cast doesn't changes his mind again next year and signs a bunch of free agents.

GoGoWhiteSox
01-25-2009, 12:02 AM
The Cincinnati Reds, as you know them, will not be a professional franchise for much longer. If you look at all of the teams in the league, the Reds really do not deserve to have the franchise anymore. Despite the history, there is nothing present that keeps this team in Cincinnati. Nashville, Orlando, Jacksonville, Memphis, Vegas, Columbus....all of those cities can better support a team. Plus, new owners and an entire new staff would help too. by 2015....the REds will be out of Cincy...IMO
:confused: Moving the Reds won't solve anything. If you put lipstick on a pig to try to make it look prettier, guess what? It's still a pig! Just like if you moved the Reds to a city you think would support them more, you'll likely have the same garbage front office making the same bonehead decisions. You have to have a shrewd front office to create a contender with a smaller payroll, and the Reds haven't necessarily had that in the last few years.

Newman4
01-25-2009, 10:07 PM
I don't really get it. Why spend money on Hernandez, Weathers, Willy, Hairston at all if you're not going to spend more money to compete? None of the four are bargains for a cash-strapped team. Like Fay said, if you didnt waste the bucks on them, you could've afforded something of quality. Makes no sense unless you are playing for 4th instead of 5th. Either way you suck. The Cubs have improved as well as other clubs in the NL. Why would anyone come to watch a team that finished poorly last season that has went backwards to terms of personnel compared to their competition?

Also, either the Reds need to spend the extra dollars to compete or gut the big contracts and trade off Harang, Arroyo, Cordero, Phillips, etc. and stockpile prospects. The middle of the road route gets you in the middle of the standings. Does anyone care if you're 4th instead of 6th at the end of the season? I don't.

I won't be attending one game this season. If Bob won't spend money then neither will I. I can imagine the economy affects me more than him.

CesarGeronimo
01-26-2009, 03:31 PM
Newman, I agree with you, but I think the Reds management actually thinks that the players they've brought in will make the team good - they believe this speed, defense, pitching and manufacturing runs line that they're selling. Dusty appears to be high on Willy and Gomes, and I think Dusty is playing a bigger role than people suspect in shaping the team. He was big on bringing in Patterson and Bako last year and that's what the Reds did. So, you've got Dusty planning his lineup based on ideas like his stated belief that Tavaras had 30 doubles and double-digit triples last year.

What's most disappointing to me about the confirmation that the Reds are finished with their offseason additions is that even for the relatively small amount of money they spent, they didn't spend it well. I don't know how anybody could without bias give them a grade of higher than a "C" for this offseason. The Reds need better than a C from their management to take the step from where they've been the past 15 decade to regaining their place as a competent and winning franchise. If Castellini and Jocketty aren't doing A or at least B work in this smallish market, the Reds will continue to fail.

I agree with many that the Reds have better pitching and more young talent in their system than they've had in a while, but without smart moves and using money and trades wisely to bring in good players to fill the inevitable holes in their in-house talent, they'll squander this opportunity. The Reds' in-house talent isn't so overwhelming compared to other teams that management can just sit back and wait for the youngsters to start winning pennants. And in the meantime, each year that the team posts another losing record makes it just that much harder to attract fans (revenue) and good players from outside their own system.

Nasty_Boy
01-26-2009, 03:41 PM
Newman and Cesar

That is the biggest reason I have been so ticked off this offseason. They made lateral moves that didn't improve the team all the while putting up a front that says we are trying to win. It's a joke and an insult to an educated fan. As mentioned, why sign Taveras to a 2 year backloaded deal? You're telling me that you couldn't get a non-tendered below average leadoff man on a 1 year deal? He couldn't have had many offers to be a starting CF'er. What if Stubbs is ready next season? He's a better defender and has a much higher ceiling that Taveras, and I would bet that Stubbs would be better than Taveras if he was given the chance.

BLEEDS
01-26-2009, 04:11 PM
Just so you know the bet you have between 757690 is that the Reds will score more runs in 2009 than they did in 2008. They scored 704 runs in 2008, not 750. Just making sure you know that before you double your bet.

Oh I know the wager, don't worry, thanks for your concern.

Believe it or not, this is a bet I'd love to lose - and am more concerned that we score 750+ as a team, because that is what we would need to do in order to even attempt to close the runs, and hence, wins gap that we need to even sniff any notion of contention this year.

Of course, that is still a dream; anything short of signing Manny Ramirez pretty much guarantees we won't approach that 750 number. Actually, we may not have breached 700 with him once Wily Tavares was cemented in for 600 AB's in the leadoff spot.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

redsfandan
01-28-2009, 03:03 PM
Hey BLEEDS, do you also think the Reds run differential will be worse than last year?

BLEEDS
01-31-2009, 01:31 PM
Hey BLEEDS, do you also think the Reds run differential will be worse than last year?

Hoping not, but if it closes, it will be because of the pitching, not the offense.

We need it from both ends, obviously, and including defense. I haven't seen enough yet from the offense to say it is getting any better, and all signs point to markedly worse...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

TheNext44
01-31-2009, 03:22 PM
Hoping not, but if it closes, it will be because of the pitching, not the offense.

We need it from both ends, obviously, and including defense. I haven't seen enough yet from the offense to say it is getting any better, and all signs point to markedly worse...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I agree that not enough has been done to improve the defense, but I definitely see it improving over last year. Again that is not saying much, since last year the Reds looked like the bad new bears most of the season. Here is how I see it breaking down.

C - The same, maybe a little worse
1B - Better from experience
2B - The same
3B - Better from experience
SS - Much better, even if Gonzo is not fully recovered. SS was a horrible black hole of suck last year. Kepp, Hariston and Cabrera were just terrible and made up most of the innings.
LF - Better if it is a Dickerson/Gomes platoon. Gomes is worse than Dunn, but Dickerson is much, much better, and should log most of the innings in the field, around 70%.
CF - Same. Taveras is not as good as Patterson, but remember Bruce logged a lot of innings there too, before Jr. was traded. That brought last year's overall defensive production down in CF.
RF - Much better. Bruce looked a little lost there last year, but he should get better, and Jr. was painful to watch.