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WVRed
01-22-2009, 11:32 AM
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/cin/fan_forum/caravan.jsp



MARTY BRENNAMAN'S BUS FAN STOPS (Free and open to the public)
DATE LOCATION TIME (EST)

Thursday, Jan. 22 Charleston, WV (Charleston Towne Center) 3:15-4:45 p.m.
Huntington, WV/Ashland, KY (Fannin Motors) 6:15-8:30 p.m.

Friday, Jan. 23 Bowling Green, KY (Greenwood Mall) 7:00-8:30 p.m.

Saturday, Jan. 24 Nashville, TN (RiverGate Mall) 11:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m.
Lexington, KY (Fayette Mall) 6:00-8:30 p.m.

Sunday, Jan. 25 Maysville, KY (Maysville Conference Center) 12:15 a.m. - 1:45 p.m.

THOM BRENNAMAN'S BUS FAN STOPS (free and open to the public)
DATE LOCATION TIME (EST)

Thursday, Jan. 22 Vienna, WV (Grand Central Mall) 4:30-7:00 p.m.

Friday, Jan. 23 Athens, OH (The Market on State) 6:30-8:30 p.m.

Saturday, Jan. 24 Lima, OH (Lima Mall) 5:00-7:00 p.m.

Sunday, Jan. 25 Columbus, OH (Polaris Fashion Place) 11:00 a.m. - 1:30 p.m.

JEFF BRANTLEY'S BUS FAN STOPS (free and open to the public)
DATE LOCATION TIME (EST)

Thursday, Jan. 22 Louisville, KY (Louisville Slugger Field) 4:30-7:00 p.m.

Friday, Jan. 23 Evansville, IN (Jillian's Billiards Club) 1:00-2:30 p.m.
Bloomington, IN (College Mall) 5:30-7:30 p.m.

Saturday, Jan. 24 Indianapolis, IN (Castleton Square Mall) 11:30 a.m. - 2:00 p.m.
Muncie, IN (Stoops Automotive) 3:00-5:00 p.m.

Sunday, Jan. 25 Dayton, OH (National Museum of the USAF) 11:15 a.m. - 1:30 p.m.

I'll be at Thom's tonight in Vienna at the Grand Central Mall, so I will try to provide some thoughts later on tonight. I thought this thread would be a good idea for those who are planning on attending to post some thoughts from the event.

Chip R
01-22-2009, 11:39 AM
Well, we know who the stars are. It's not Brandon Phillips' or Jay Bruce's or Joey Votto's bus stops. It's Marty's, Thom's and Brantley's. :rolleyes:

johngalt
01-22-2009, 12:06 PM
Looks like the Reds are keeping a blog of the action:

http://redlegs.mlblogs.com/

Blimpie
01-22-2009, 02:46 PM
I will be at the Lexington stop on Saturday night. Other than BP, the lineup looks pretty 'underwhelming.'

I was really hoping that Yonder Alonzo would end up on this route.

Caseyfan21
01-22-2009, 03:46 PM
This will probably be the first year I don't go. No player really makes me want to go like Bruce last year.

Reds1
01-22-2009, 06:01 PM
They are coming to my hometown Friday for the 1st time so I'm headed out just to check it out.

WVRed
01-22-2009, 07:16 PM
I just got back from the mall. I'm going to try and get some pictures from my phone off on a MicroSD card, but here's my take.

I was somewhat disappointed. It was supposed to start at 4:30 but began closer to 5:00. Thom came up and introduced everybody and there was a brief Q&A session that only consisted of five questions before they started signing autographs. You would have thought they would have taken more than five questions, especially considering the next stop is tomorrow night in Athens.

One involved the Reds pursuing Xavier Nady and not expanding the payroll. Jocketty responded that the Reds were going to head into Spring Training and see what happens.

I did manage to get a question in, asking if there were any pitching prospects that could make an impact, compared to the Reds abundance of position players. Jocketty said that they still had hope for Homer Bailey and were going to give Maloney and Thompson a shot as well, but it was something that they needed to improve upon.

The questions mostly were answered by Jocketty and Tom Browning. Chris Valakia and Jeff Keppinger just made an appearance and signed autographs. The crowd was down compared to last year as well, but they also had Jay Bruce in the mix as well.

corkedbat
01-22-2009, 07:30 PM
I just got back from the mall. I'm going to try and get some pictures from my phone off on a MicroSD card, but here's my take.

I was somewhat disappointed. It was supposed to start at 4:30 but began closer to 5:00. Thom came up and introduced everybody and there was a brief Q&A session that only consisted of five questions before they started signing autographs. You would have thought they would have taken more than five questions, especially considering the next stop is tomorrow night in Athens.

One involved the Reds pursuing Xavier Nady and not expanding the payroll. Jocketty responded that the Reds were going to head into Spring Training and see what happens.

I did manage to get a question in, asking if there were any pitching prospects that could make an impact, compared to the Reds abundance of position players. Jocketty said that they still had hope for Homer Bailey and were going to give Maloney and Thompson a shot as well, but it was something that they needed to improve upon.

The questions mostly were answered by Jocketty and Tom Browning. Chris Valakia and Jeff Keppinger just made an appearance and signed autographs. The crowd was down compared to last year as well, but they also had Jay Bruce in the mix as well.

Yeah, sounds like the same thing they did in Lexington last year. I'm not much on autographs (or listening to Marty) and I'm totally under-whelmed by the offseason thus far, so I'll probably just skip the visit Saturday evening.

WVRedsFan
01-22-2009, 11:52 PM
I attended the Reds Caravan stop at the Town Centre Mall today. It was supposed to begin at 3:15, but the bus didn't arrive until 3:25 PM. I got there at 3:00 and the line wrapped from Macy's the entire width of the mall, around a planter, and down the mall. I waited patiently. Marty Brenneman, Chris Welsh, Lee May, and Brandon Phillips came walking in, by the crowd, and up to the makeshift stage. A couple of us yelled at Marty as he came in and he smiled and responded, "what's up guys?" Oh yeah, Gapper was there too.

After Marty introduced everyone (including an absent Brandon Phillips who mysterously disappeared for a little while), the line started moving as people brought bats, balls, etc for autographs. Marty mentioned that they were "Team A" of the caravan. He mentioned that Brantley and Grande were "Team B" and they had Yonder Alonzo with them and before the caravan was over, he might want to ask for a trade. Since I'm really not into autographs, i just followed the line to speak to Marty, Chris, Brandon and Lee May. There were some Reds officials there too, but pressed for time, i concentrated on those four.

Marty seems like a nice guy as does Chris. Both were talkative. Brandon smiled constantly and offered to sign my group ticket brochure. I asked about the 2009 Reds and got few answers, even if Suddenlink would be carrying the Fox Ohio 100+ game schedule. No one, including Welsh had an answer. Typical because the sponsor of the event was local radio station WCHS.

A nice trip. I recommend it when it comes to your town.
__________________

Jpup
01-23-2009, 09:51 AM
I was thinking of going to the one in Bowling Green tonight, but I can't decide. Marty, Lee May, and Bob Miller is not much. I was hoping for Votto or Bruce.

Maybe it will be worth it to get to speak with Phillips and get his autograph. I need to buy a couple baseballs before, if I go.

I actually would like to ask Bob Miller a few questions and maybe get a sense of the club's direction for the future. Anyone have any questions they would like asked?

lollipopcurve
01-23-2009, 10:01 AM
I actually would like to ask Bob Miller a few questions and maybe get a sense of the club's direction for the future. Anyone have any questions they would like asked?

I'd ask something about the evolution of the trade market -- has it become tougher to make trades, and, if so, why? Are GMs always under pressure to "make the money work"? Has the heightened media attention -- i.e., Internet cacophony -- made GMs gun shy? Are GMs too focussed on "winning" trades?

And, in a similar vein, aren't there more prospect trades where the two teams are trading from what look like surplusses in their systems?

Don't feel obliged, Jpup. These questions aren't really about the club's direction.....

Jpup
01-23-2009, 10:12 AM
I'd ask something about the evolution of the trade market -- has it become tougher to make trades, and, if so, why? Are GMs always under pressure to "make the money work"? Has the heightened media attention -- i.e., Internet cacophony -- made GMs gun shy? Are GMs too focussed on "winning" trades?

And, in a similar vein, aren't there more prospect trades where the two teams are trading from what look like surplusses in their systems?

Don't feel obliged, Jpup. These questions aren't really about the club's direction.....

I'm do want to ask why they haven't made trades for some young guys if they are done with signing free agents. They obviously can't win the division without spending a little money so it's time for a fire sale IMO.

WVRed
01-23-2009, 02:50 PM
I asked about the 2009 Reds and got few answers, even if Suddenlink would be carrying the Fox Ohio 100+ game schedule. No one, including Welsh had an answer. Typical because the sponsor of the event was local radio station WCHS.

A nice trip. I recommend it when it comes to your town.
__________________

Suddenlink carried the Reds on channel 2 last year. We had switched to Dish Network because they carried the Reds, but after Suddenlink started carrying the Reds and our service wasn't that great, we went back.

If I still lived in Kentucky, I wouldn't have minded going to the one at Jim Fannin's in Ashland. Of the three caravans, the one you saw definitely would have been the best one, just for Brandon Phillips being there.

I was glad to see Marty and crew stop at WUGO in Grayson. I grew up in Grayson and listened to Reds games through them, and I especially enjoyed Tim Carper.

Reds1
01-23-2009, 04:34 PM
Just got back from Evansville. Very laid back. I walked in and the cowboy was right beside me and said I'm glad to get off that bus. I talked to him a few. We couldn't get a seat so we just went to the backside of the place where you couldn't see them and listened. George Grande led most of the talk and they all spoke. Told a story about Don Mattingly (local legend) about meeting Votto - pretty cool story. Brantly couldn't believe we didn't have radio local, but he didn't realize WLW reaches this far. Lots of talk about the young excitement and and the difference of teams from the past. Said praying and hoping for the long ball late in the game was a tough way to go and going forward they wanted to move to the model like the Dodgers or Atlanta who pitch and score enough runs to always be close in Sept. Dickerson is cool. Just nice to have youngsters who don't have that chip. I didn't do it, but if I wanted I could have got all their autos in 20 min. Had free schedules, baseball cards, etc. It was very nice. They have another stop tonight. Brantley did tell me Yonder is a great looking young kid and they were excited to have him. Dusty made fun of the young guys eating broccoli, etc. and how much they are sacrificing as he was eatching a big cheeseburger. LOL

Not much, but I thought I'd give a quick update as the crowds were very light. Next year I will make it earlier and watch it all and get the autos, but I was with a coworker.

Jpup
01-23-2009, 05:27 PM
I'm going down to BG for the Caravan tonight. I'm going to try to find a couple baseballs at the mall to have signed. I am looking forward to meeting Brandon. I hope I get to ask a couple questions. I think I'll ask Marty why he hated Adam Dunn and still does.

nate
01-23-2009, 05:33 PM
I'm debating whether to go tomorrow. It would only be to ask Marty if he's wearing a shirt.

Jpup
01-23-2009, 05:37 PM
I'm debating whether to go tomorrow. It would only be to ask Marty if he's wearing a shirt.

Good point. I'll report back tonight. For some reason, I don't think it will be much, but it's an excuse to leave the house. ;)

Chip R
01-23-2009, 05:37 PM
I'm debating whether to go tomorrow. It would only be to ask Marty if he's wearing a shirt.


Ask him about Adam Dunn's OBP and see how long it takes him to turn red.

Jpup
01-24-2009, 01:49 AM
I made the trip to Bowling Green and waited in line for about 1/2 an hour. They were just about right on time and we were all told that we could only have 1 thing signed per player. There were about 200 people on hand, more or less. Now the fun starts.

After going through the line and signing up for the giveaways we finally got to Devin, Brandon, Bob, Marty, Chris, and Lee.

Here it goes:

Me: Hey Brandon (shook his hand) as Devin signed my sheet. Hey Bob (Miller) when are we going to get a bat?

Miller (Ignoring Me)

Me: Hey Bob, when are we going to get a bat?

Brandon: What? What? What? Why do we need a bat?

Me: I think you need some help for the offense.

Brandon: I don't need any help. Why do we need a bat? We have a great team.

Me: I just think the Reds need a bat because we lost a great one.

Brandon: Who, who did we lose? Who are you talking about?

Me: Adam.

Brandon: What did he do? What did he do? What did he do?

Me: Well, he hit 40 homers every year and drove in 100 every year.

Brandon: You know how many times he struck out?

Me: What's the big deal with strikeouts? Why does that matter? He made less outs than anyone on the team.

Brandon: How many RBIs did he have compared to his homers?

Me: It's hard for him to drive in runs with no one on base.

Brandon: Are you saying Willie ain't gonna get on base? Are you saying I didn't get on base? I got on base. What should we do, just give away half our team?

Me: I didn't say anyone should be traded. I just think you guys could really use some help and Willie Taveras isn't going to cut it. He just doesn't get on base enough.

Bob Miller: You know what his on base percentage was last year?

Me: I think it was about .308 or something like that. That is not good and I think the money could have gone towards a better hitter.

Bob Miller: It's only 2 million.

Me: And 4 million next year.

Bob Miller: We didn't have a lot of choice. His on base was .370 before that. It's hard to hit in Colorado.

Me: He was terrible in Houston before that and terrible in Colorado after that. You could have gotten the same thing out of Patterson for 800k.

Bob Miller: We tried that.

Me: Hey Marty, nice to meet you.

Marty: Nice to meet you young man. How are you?

Me: I am good, but Bob and Brandon don't think the Reds need another bat.

Marty: Rolls his eyes. What did Brandon say?

Me: I told him they need some help and told Bob the Reds need another bat. Chris, what do you think?

Chris: It would be nice.

Bob Miller: The offseason isn't over.

Me: It was reported yesterday that the Reds were done. Well, Today Bob said they may not be done.

Marty: Chris, you don't agree with Brandon do you?

Chris: Speechless and in agreement with my point.

Lee and Chris: What did Bob say today?

I told him what was said and then said good luck to Chris, Lee, and Marty.


I'll just say this. For all we hear about Brandon Phillips, well, I'm not sure. He is very confrontational and very arrogant. I wasn't even talking to him and he just starting trying to intimidate me. I wish I would not have gone now. I was trying to be nice to him and say things in a respectful way, but he got really smart with me really fast. It was obvious he wants to be the team and doesn't want to share the spotlight. He obviously did not like Dunn either. I was surprised. I thought Marty would be kinda smart, but he could not have been nicer and Chris Welsh was in full agreement with my points. I talked to them for several minutes and left some things out, but that was the basic conversation. Bob Miller wasn't very polite either. Brandon Phillips does not want any help. He think the Reds are a great team.

Wow.

I did get all their autographs and have a Brandon Phillips signed Calender and an autograph sheet with everyone there on it.

corkedbat
01-24-2009, 02:05 AM
LOL! Nice exchange JPup!

I'm not big on autographs, but I might go through the line at the Lexington stop tomorrow evening just to parrot back to Brandon what yous said.

I'm sure BP would stick up for Taveras. Bruce is likely to improve his OBP this season, so he needs Willy around to make Brandon's OBP look good by comparison. :laugh:

Something tells me that they're finding out on this Caravan that all in Reds Country aren't as happy as BCast imtimated today.

Jpup
01-24-2009, 02:09 AM
LOL! Nice exchange JPup!

I'm not big on autographs, but I might go through the line at the Lexington stop tomorrow evening just to parrot back to Brandon what yous said.

I'm sure BP would stick up for Taveras. Bruce is likely to improve his OBP this season, so he needs Willy around to make Brandon's OBP look good by comparison. :laugh:

Something tells me that they're finding out on this Caravan that all in Reds Country aren't as happy as BCast imtimated today.

It was more Bob sticking up for Tavaras. Brandon was telling me they had a great team and didn't need any help. His exact words. I wish I had a tape recorder.

It was funny to me in a way, but it upset me that he was acting that way. I loved the guy before I met him. I don't think I'll go to any more such events.:(

BCubb2003
01-24-2009, 02:10 AM
Brandon Phillips does not want any help. He think the Reds are a great team.

Wow.

I did get all their autographs and have a Brandon Phillips signed Calender and an autograph sheet with everyone there on it.

That's quite a story. Did Brandon sign the calendar: "To the knucklehead who thinks we need a bat" ?

But you know what, can you imagine the fuss if he was going around talking about how weak the lineup is, and he can't do it all himself, and the new guy can't get on base, and the front office hasn't done enough in the off-season?

OnBaseMachine
01-24-2009, 02:11 AM
But you know what, can you imagine the fuss if he was going around talking about how weak the lineup is, and he can't do it all himself, and the new guy can't get on base, and the front office hasn't done enough in the off-season?

Exactly. He's not gonna blast the organization right in front of a front office member.

Jpup
01-24-2009, 02:13 AM
That's quite a story. Did Brandon sign the calendar: "To the knucklehead who thinks we need a bat" ?

But you know what, can you imagine the fuss if he was going around talking about how weak the lineup is, and he can't do it all himself, and the new guy can't get on base, and the front office hasn't done enough in the off-season?

nah, :lol: he just signed it. I didn't have as much of a problem with what he said as to how he said it. I was there with my pregnant wife and my best friend and they couldn't believe it. :What he do? What he do? What he do? :confused:

WVRedsFan
01-24-2009, 02:27 AM
Funny how you get different impressions in different places. Brandon couldn't have been any nicer to me. He came off as a confident athlete, but nothing more. Miller, OTOH, didn't seem even approachable. I skipped him. Marty and Chris seemed like nice guys as was Lee May.

I fully expect a PR event like the Caravan to be a positive event with those in attendance supporting the product. The flaws are there. We need a LF'er and a SS bad. And we need power and RBI's, but for these guys to say, "we suck" ain't gonna happen. Why drive people away? I think the exchange between JPup, Marty and Welsh was priceless. They know. And regardless of what folks think of Marty, he's a genuine guy. He may not measure up to what people want in a broadcaster (hearing them still call for Steve Stewart mystifies me--what in the heck did he bring to the table but boredom? And endless stats--great way to lure people in--if you happen to not be on RedsZone), but...I'll quit there.

BuckeyeRedleg
01-24-2009, 02:33 AM
Brandon didn't like Josh Hamilton either. Go figure.

Actually, I got an idea, let Brandon hit cleanup all year and see is he sniffs 80 RBI. LOL.

I'm sure Brandon will understand the importance of OB% after 2009.

Clueless.

Raisor
01-24-2009, 09:05 AM
JPUP,

You are filled with awesome.

lollipopcurve
01-24-2009, 10:03 AM
If I'm a hitter and someone tells me my team can't hit, I take it personally, too. I have no problem with Phillips firing back at Jpup. You criticize a professional athlete, directly or indirectly, more or less to his face, don't expect him to back down.

Jpup
01-24-2009, 10:05 AM
If I'm a hitter and someone tells me my team can't hit, I take it personally, too. I have no problem with Phillips firing back at Jpup. You criticize a professional athlete, directly or indirectly, more or less to his face, don't expect him to back down.

truth hurts, I guess.

lollipopcurve
01-24-2009, 10:08 AM
truth hurts, I guess.

There's something to that.

And a good time was had by all?

Jpup
01-24-2009, 10:12 AM
There's something to that.

And a good time was had by all?

not exactly.

lollipopcurve
01-24-2009, 10:16 AM
not exactly.

That's kinda my point.

Blimpie
01-24-2009, 10:18 AM
This completely changes how I may approach Phillips tonight in Lexington.

I was going to ask him why, at a game last September, he chose to sign the black leather part of my son's black/tan glove---while holding a black Sharpie?

Now, I think I may ask him how he feels about the Reds' random drug-testing policies.

:cool:

Raisor
01-24-2009, 10:24 AM
I think people need to ask about OBP at every stop in the caravan. Make it a thing, and maybe we can start a trend.

BuckeyeRedleg
01-24-2009, 10:41 AM
If I'm a hitter and someone tells me my team can't hit, I take it personally, too. I have no problem with Phillips firing back at Jpup. You criticize a professional athlete, directly or indirectly, more or less to his face, don't expect him to back down.

From what I read jpup was talking to Bob and Brandon jumped in.

Either way, it was a valid question and surely didn't deserve Brandon getting mouthy.

lollipopcurve
01-24-2009, 10:57 AM
Either way, it was a valid question and surely didn't deserve Brandon getting mouthy.

I disagree, for reasons already stated. But I'm not going to get into a debate about it -- I wasn't there.

Jpup
01-24-2009, 11:09 AM
From what I read jpup was talking to Bob and Brandon jumped in.

Either way, it was a valid question and surely didn't deserve Brandon getting mouthy.

You are exactly right. I wasn't even talking to him.

Razor Shines
01-24-2009, 11:36 AM
From what I read jpup was talking to Bob and Brandon jumped in.

Either way, it was a valid question and surely didn't deserve Brandon getting mouthy.

On top of that, jpup didn't say anything negative about Brandon. And it was certainly bad form for BP to drag Dunn's name through the mud. For someone who's not that good of a hitter he's pretty full of himself.

I'm really not sure whaf to believe though. Jpup is a Titans fan, he may have deserved everything he got.

nate
01-24-2009, 11:57 AM
Jpup should be given the keys to the city.

Or Marty's hair.

IowaRed
01-24-2009, 12:04 PM
it is a REDS Caravan, I'm sure those guys were surprised by Jpup's line of questioning and are probably used to people who just want to be close to major league ballplayers and people they see on TV. I'm 100% behind Jpup's thinking and they are all very good questions but I doubt that Phillips really wants to deal with that at this promotional event

BuckeyeRedleg
01-24-2009, 12:09 PM
it is a REDS Caravan, I'm sure those guys were surprised by Jpup's line of questioning and are probably used to people who just want to be close to major league ballplayers and people they see on TV. I'm 100% behind Jpup's thinking and they are all very good questions but I doubt that Phillips really wants to deal with that at this promotional event

Nobody was talking to Phillips. And where and when else does a fan get a chance to discuss front office decisions with front office people if not at a caravan?

The question was valid and hopefully more fans ask tough questions like that than just gush over everything and ask for autographs. The front office needs to know that the fans are not satisfied. You would think they'd get the message from pathetic attendance, but apparently they have not figured it out yet.

IowaRed
01-24-2009, 12:12 PM
I'm not saying that just because he didn't want to deal with it excuses boorish behavior. My guess is that he was surprised by somebody who had good questions and good answers to their questions and didn't want to deal with that either

Raisor
01-24-2009, 12:31 PM
I'm not saying that just because he didn't want to deal with it excuses boorish behavior. My guess is that he was surprised by somebody who had good questions and good answers to their questions and didn't want to deal with that either

except, according to JPUP, BP wasn't the one being asked the question. He jumped in himself.

johngalt
01-24-2009, 05:53 PM
except, according to JPUP, BP wasn't the one being asked the question. He jumped in himself.

The guys on these Caravan stops sit right beside one another. So as JPUP asks the question to Bob, Brandon is sitting right there a couple inches from Bob. I think it's pretty common place that if you're in a situation like that and a question is asked, if another person is right there and is part of the same group and wants to chime in, people do. Doesn't matter if it's at the Reds Caravan or at the dinner table or wherever.

JPUP had a right to his opinion about what the team needs, but Brandon Phillips or Bob Miller or anyone else had just as much right to give their opinion and say why they thought he was wrong too. Not sure why people are getting bent out of shape about it.

Razor Shines
01-24-2009, 06:44 PM
The guys on these Caravan stops sit right beside one another. So as JPUP asks the question to Bob, Brandon is sitting right there a couple inches from Bob. I think it's pretty common place that if you're in a situation like that and a question is asked, if another person is right there and is part of the same group and wants to chime in, people do. Doesn't matter if it's at the Reds Caravan or at the dinner table or wherever.

JPUP had a right to his opinion about what the team needs, but Brandon Phillips or Bob Miller or anyone else had just as much right to give their opinion and say why they thought he was wrong too. Not sure why people are getting bent out of shape about it.

I don't know if anyone is really getting bent out of shape, but some of Brandon's responses seemed.....annoying, ignorant? I don't know they just soured me on Phillips a little more. Especially this exchange:

Brandon: What did he do? What did he do? What did he do?

Jpup: Well, he hit 40 homers every year and drove in 100 every year.

Brandon: You know how many times he struck out?

Hoosier Red
01-24-2009, 07:09 PM
I don't know if anyone is really getting bent out of shape, but some of Brandon's responses seemed.....annoying, ignorant? I don't know they just soured me on Phillips a little more. Especially this exchange:

I think Brandon certainly got defensive. But to be fair, he probably felt like the team was being attacked.

BuckeyeRedleg
01-24-2009, 07:11 PM
Now that Dunn and Jr. are gone and he's the main dude (which is what he's always wanted) he'll be the one feeling the most heat when this team continues where it left off.

lollipopcurve
01-24-2009, 07:32 PM
The guys on these Caravan stops sit right beside one another.

Thank you, johngalt. I was going to make this point, but didn't want to get into it with an anti-Phillips crowd.

lollipopcurve
01-24-2009, 07:34 PM
But to be fair, he probably felt like the team was being attacked.

Agreed.

If Dunn had been on a caravan (not sure he ever was) and reacted like Phillips to a fan telling him the team was weak, my guess is that he would have been hailed as a true leader by many on this board.

Razor Shines
01-24-2009, 07:51 PM
Thank you, johngalt. I was going to make this point, but didn't want to get into it with an anti-Phillips crowd.

I don't know about any anti Phillips crowd, but I don't have a problem with BP injecting himself into the conversation (I don't think that anyone has too much of a problem with that) I just don't know why he had to bash Dunn like he did. I don't have a problem with him being confident in his own abilities, he just seems to lash out toward anyone he thinks he has to share the spotlight with.

RANDY IN INDY
01-24-2009, 08:05 PM
If Phillips would have questioned Tavares's weaknesses instead of Dunn's, it would have been OK and he would have been given an honorary membership to Redszone. Never tread on hallowed ground or you will be labeled.

jojo
01-24-2009, 08:41 PM
If Phillips would have questioned Tavares's weaknesses instead of Dunn's, it would have been OK and he would have been given an honorary membership to Redszone. Never tread on hallowed ground or you will be labeled.

I think it was more the things Phillips pointed out as weaknesses.....he was BA w/RISP short of a trifecta.....

BuckeyeRedleg
01-24-2009, 08:54 PM
If Phillips would have questioned Tavares's weaknesses instead of Dunn's, it would have been OK and he would have been given an honorary membership to Redszone. Never tread on hallowed ground or you will be labeled.

Seriously, give me a break.

Do you ever get tired of complaining about the Redszone? Because you do that about as much as anyone complains about the Reds.

RANDY IN INDY
01-24-2009, 09:00 PM
Maybe it creates a little balance. And it isn't all of Redszone that I am complaining about.

Razor Shines
01-24-2009, 09:17 PM
If Phillips would have questioned Tavares's weaknesses instead of Dunn's, it would have been OK and he would have been given an honorary membership to Redszone. Never tread on hallowed ground or you will be labeled.

I wouldn't expect Brandon to speak ill of any of his teammates (even though he's done it before), but Brandon knows that Wily T won't be taking any of the spotlight from him, therefore he has no reason to speak ill of Wily.

Hoosier Red
01-24-2009, 09:55 PM
When has he spoken ill of teammates, other than pointing out there are players on the team other than Jr. Dunn, and Hamilton.

LoganBuck
01-24-2009, 10:59 PM
You missed saying, "Adam Dunn knew how to work a count and take a base on balls."
OR
"He didn't get picked off of first base all the time because he wasn't paying attention, or run in situations that did not call for it."

SteelSD
01-24-2009, 11:56 PM
If Phillips would have questioned Tavares's weaknesses instead of Dunn's, it would have been OK and he would have been given an honorary membership to Redszone. Never tread on hallowed ground or you will be labeled.

You've always been a fan of good character guys, Randy. Considering the proximity to the Jpup/Miller conversation, I can see why Phillips wanted to speak up had he heard something he felt was negative about his team. But do you think that maybe a more appropriate interjection would have been something like:

Phillips: "Y'know, Dunn's gone and we have to look at the team we have now. I'm excited and I think we're gonna' be fun to watch."

Heck, he could have gone on well past that extolling the real or imagined virtues of the 2009 Reds as currently comprised and I'd have come away with a good impression even if I disagreed. Instead, he turned to grandstanding and bashed a former teammate in the process. If Jpup was prepared for the shock and awe of it, he could probably have put Phillips in his place with responses like...

Brandon: "You know how many times he struck out?"

Jpup: "Yeah, I do. And if strikeouts are supposed to be so bad, then why would you have struck out nearly 110 times had you played a full season last year?"

Brandon: "How many RBIs did he have compared to his homers?"

Jpup: "Well, in 2008, Dunn had 40 home runs and 100 RBI. So he had 60 more RBI than he did homers. You had 57. He had more than you in 2007 as well."

Now, I can quickly forgive a baseball player for saying dumb things. They're paid to play baseball, after all. But when you're interjecting said dumb things while also trying to throw someone else under a bus, you'd better be squeaky clean yourself. Phillips isn't, and it has nothing to do with Adam Dunn. I honestly don't care who he was throwing under the bus, but when you meet someone who has a propensity to do that in order to make themselves look better, you can be fairly certain that you're dealing with someone of questionable character. It's quite obvious that Phillips desperately wants to be seen as "The Man", but true leaders don't behave in such a fashion.

Oh, and my fantasy coup de grace of Jpup's conversation:

Bob Miller: "We didn't have a lot of choice. His on base was .370 before that. It's hard to hit in Colorado."

Jpup: "Actually, Bob. Coors Field was the third easiest baseball environment in which to hit in both of the past two seasons. Is the GAB also a difficult htting environment and, if so, is that why Brandon's OBP was only .312 last season?"

BTW, I don't give a guy whose title is VP and Assistant General Manager a pass when he says dumb things like that. Is it too much to ask that your favorite team's Asst. GM knows the difference between a ballpark that caters to hitters and a ballpark that favors pitchers? That's just fundamental stuff.

REDREAD
01-25-2009, 12:08 AM
It was more Bob sticking up for Tavaras. Brandon was telling me they had a great team and didn't need any help. His exact words. I wish I had a tape recorder.

It was funny to me in a way, but it upset me that he was acting that way. I loved the guy before I met him. I don't think I'll go to any more such events.:(

Don't be so hard on Phillips. It's his job at these events to blow sunshine up everyone's rearend and give the fans hope.

Let's face it, even he agreed with you that Dunn was a huge loss, he can just come out and say that the offense is going to be worse this year. Likewise, that other Reds' employee you are talking to has to put a positive spin on Taveres, etc.

If you were at a public relations event for your company, would you tell a stranger bad things about your employer? You wouldn't if you were smart.

If Phillips or someone on the Caravan says something like "Yeah, it was a mistake to let Dunn go and not replace him", he gets quoted all over the internet. It's just not safe.

WMR
01-25-2009, 12:12 AM
I made the trip to Bowling Green and waited in line for about 1/2 an hour. They were just about right on time and we were all told that we could only have 1 thing signed per player. There were about 200 people on hand, more or less. Now the fun starts.

After going through the line and signing up for the giveaways we finally got to Devin, Brandon, Bob, Marty, Chris, and Lee.

Here it goes:

Me: Hey Brandon (shook his hand) as Devin signed my sheet. Hey Bob (Miller) when are we going to get a bat?

Miller (Ignoring Me)

Me: Hey Bob, when are we going to get a bat?

Brandon: What? What? What? Why do we need a bat?

Me: I think you need some help for the offense.

Brandon: I don't need any help. Why do we need a bat? We have a great team.

Me: I just think the Reds need a bat because we lost a great one.

Brandon: Who, who did we lose? Who are you talking about?

Me: Adam.

Brandon: What did he do? What did he do? What did he do?

Me: Well, he hit 40 homers every year and drove in 100 every year.

Brandon: You know how many times he struck out?

Me: What's the big deal with strikeouts? Why does that matter? He made less outs than anyone on the team.

Brandon: How many RBIs did he have compared to his homers?

Me: It's hard for him to drive in runs with no one on base.

Brandon: Are you saying Willie ain't gonna get on base? Are you saying I didn't get on base? I got on base. What should we do, just give away half our team?

Me: I didn't say anyone should be traded. I just think you guys could really use some help and Willie Taveras isn't going to cut it. He just doesn't get on base enough.

Bob Miller: You know what his on base percentage was last year?

Me: I think it was about .308 or something like that. That is not good and I think the money could have gone towards a better hitter.

Bob Miller: It's only 2 million.

Me: And 4 million next year.

Bob Miller: We didn't have a lot of choice. His on base was .370 before that. It's hard to hit in Colorado.

Me: He was terrible in Houston before that and terrible in Colorado after that. You could have gotten the same thing out of Patterson for 800k.

Bob Miller: We tried that.

Me: Hey Marty, nice to meet you.

Marty: Nice to meet you young man. How are you?

Me: I am good, but Bob and Brandon don't think the Reds need another bat.

Marty: Rolls his eyes. What did Brandon say?

Me: I told him they need some help and told Bob the Reds need another bat. Chris, what do you think?

Chris: It would be nice.

Bob Miller: The offseason isn't over.

Me: It was reported yesterday that the Reds were done. Well, Today Bob said they may not be done.

Marty: Chris, you don't agree with Brandon do you?

Chris: Speechless and in agreement with my point.

Lee and Chris: What did Bob say today?

I told him what was said and then said good luck to Chris, Lee, and Marty.


I'll just say this. For all we hear about Brandon Phillips, well, I'm not sure. He is very confrontational and very arrogant. I wasn't even talking to him and he just starting trying to intimidate me. I wish I would not have gone now. I was trying to be nice to him and say things in a respectful way, but he got really smart with me really fast. It was obvious he wants to be the team and doesn't want to share the spotlight. He obviously did not like Dunn either. I was surprised. I thought Marty would be kinda smart, but he could not have been nicer and Chris Welsh was in full agreement with my points. I talked to them for several minutes and left some things out, but that was the basic conversation. Bob Miller wasn't very polite either. Brandon Phillips does not want any help. He think the Reds are a great team.

Wow.

I did get all their autographs and have a Brandon Phillips signed Calender and an autograph sheet with everyone there on it.

AWESOME WORK JPUP!

Virtual rep headed your way! :D

WMR
01-25-2009, 12:23 AM
Yeah the worst part about the Jpup convo w/ B.Phil IMO was the way B.Phil trashed Dunn. Very poor form.

Reds Freak
01-25-2009, 12:43 AM
Looks like Tavares is going to have some competition for Redszone whipping boy. You would have thought he said something bad about Jesus Christ. It sounds like he could have handled the situation a little better but I think it's pretty cool he agrees to go on the caravan every year even though most of the more well known players opt out. That's good for the young fans in the region and the Reds. By the way, here is what Brandon said about Dunn in an interview with Alan Cutler this weekend...

Cutler: Will this team looser, more relaxed because Dunn and Junior aren’t there?

Phillips: "I can say yes. I have nothing but respect for Adam Dunn and Junior. I talked to Dunner about it, he knows what’s up. He told me I was going to be the leader, he told me just be myself, do what you do because they’re gone. He said, Brandon you’re that dude now. Now you can say whatever you want to say. We talked about it, because I couldn’t really say as much because we had those two guys on the team. It was different because we had those two guys and all the attention was on them and if they’d get traded. Are they going here? Every year Adam Dunn was trade bait. And Junior it was if he was going to allow a trade or 600 home runs, it was always a distraction. It’s good that Junior hit 600 home runs, it was good to have Dunn. Since they’re not here, the team’s going to be closer. There’s less stuff we have to worry about. We’re going to be a totally different team. Our defense is going to be better, we’re going to be faster. We’re going to be younger also. Adam Dunn is not old, but we’re going to faster. We’re not going to hit as many home runs, we’re not going to rely on the home run. We’re going to go out there and score in many ways. We have guys who can hit home runs, but we’re going to score a lot of different ways. We’re going to score a lot of runs, people are going to be very surprised. We’re going to be like a real National League team."

Razor Shines
01-25-2009, 12:50 AM
When has he spoken ill of teammates, other than pointing out there are players on the team other than Jr. Dunn, and Hamilton.

IMO it was more than just pointing out that there are other guys on the team and Josh certainly felt that way as well. In his book he made slight reference to it with this:

Phillips comments after Narron was fired.


We had a good year with Jerry last year, but we had some new guys come to the scene this year. He tried to adjust with the new players this year, but it was all about certain players. Ken Griffey Jr. and his home run chase, Josh Hamilton and his comeback season, everybody got caught up in that instead of winning.

Also from Josh's book:

I knew that there was some resentment about me, and Johnny, but this was the first time it had been expressed publicly.

And I'm pretty sure that wasn't the only time that Brandon complained about the publicity Josh received. To me it just sounds like whining that he wasn't getting enough attention. God forbid that Bruce has a breakout season this year, Brandon is likely to have a nervous breakdown.

Anyway, Brandon is a Red and hope he has a great season and earns his place in the spotlight that he's seeking.

SteelSD
01-25-2009, 12:56 AM
Yeah the worst part about the Jpup convo w/ B.Phil IMO was the way B.Phil trashed Dunn. Very poor form.

Actually, the worst part was that the Reds' Asst. GM doesn't know that Coors Field is a hitters' ballpark. That's a litmus test epic fail.

WMR
01-25-2009, 12:57 AM
Actually, the worst part was that the Reds' Asst. GM doesn't know that Coors Field is a hitters' ballpark. That's a litmus test epic fail.

Good point. I just meant the part that applied to B.Phil's contribution to the convo.

Razor Shines
01-25-2009, 01:02 AM
Looks like Tavares is going to have some competition for Redszone whipping boy. You would have thought he said something bad about Jesus Christ. It sounds like he could have handled the situation a little better but I think it's pretty cool he agrees to go on the caravan every year even though most of the more well known players opt out. That's good for the young fans in the region and the Reds. By the way, here is what Brandon said about Dunn in an interview with Alan Cutler this weekend...

Cutler: Will this team looser, more relaxed because Dunn and Junior aren’t there?

Phillips: "I can say yes. I have nothing but respect for Adam Dunn and Junior. I talked to Dunner about it, he knows what’s up. He told me I was going to be the leader, he told me just be myself, do what you do because they’re gone. He said, Brandon you’re that dude now. Now you can say whatever you want to say. We talked about it, because I couldn’t really say as much because we had those two guys on the team. It was different because we had those two guys and all the attention was on them and if they’d get traded. Are they going here? Every year Adam Dunn was trade bait. And Junior it was if he was going to allow a trade or 600 home runs, it was always a distraction. It’s good that Junior hit 600 home runs, it was good to have Dunn. Since they’re not here, the team’s going to be closer. There’s less stuff we have to worry about. We’re going to be a totally different team. Our defense is going to be better, we’re going to be faster. We’re going to be younger also. Adam Dunn is not old, but we’re going to faster. We’re not going to hit as many home runs, we’re not going to rely on the home run. We’re going to go out there and score in many ways. We have guys who can hit home runs, but we’re going to score a lot of different ways. We’re going to score a lot of runs, people are going to be very surprised. We’re going to be like a real National League team."

He certainly handled the question better with Cutler than he did with Jpup. I'm glad that he's excited about the team that they have, as a player on the team having a positive attitude is the best way to go into the season, really it's the only way to go into a season. We, as fans, on the other hand aren't shackled with the burden of being positive about a crappy team.

My only little question is: Are there teams in baseball that don't have to deal with any distractions during the season? I'm sure someone can come up with a few examples, I can't. IMO, he should get used to it.

OnBaseMachine
01-25-2009, 01:05 AM
I don't consider this a big deal, just like I didn't consider it a big deal a few years ago when someone started a thread about Dunn brushing them off when they asked him for an autograph. Just like any regular person, these guys have bad days and get frustrated. From what I've seen, Phillips is a good guy and is usually very good with fans.

SteelSD
01-25-2009, 01:09 AM
Looks like Tavares is going to have some competition for Redszone whipping boy. You would have thought he said something bad about Jesus Christ. It sounds like he could have handled the situation a little better but I think it's pretty cool he agrees to go on the caravan every year even though most of the more well known players opt out. That's good for the young fans in the region and the Reds. By the way, here is what Brandon said about Dunn in an interview with Alan Cutler this weekend...

Cutler: Will this team looser, more relaxed because Dunn and Junior aren’t there?

Phillips: "I can say yes. I have nothing but respect for Adam Dunn and Junior. I talked to Dunner about it, he knows what’s up. He told me I was going to be the leader, he told me just be myself, do what you do because they’re gone. He said, Brandon you’re that dude now. Now you can say whatever you want to say. We talked about it, because I couldn’t really say as much because we had those two guys on the team. It was different because we had those two guys and all the attention was on them and if they’d get traded. Are they going here? Every year Adam Dunn was trade bait. And Junior it was if he was going to allow a trade or 600 home runs, it was always a distraction. It’s good that Junior hit 600 home runs, it was good to have Dunn. Since they’re not here, the team’s going to be closer. There’s less stuff we have to worry about. We’re going to be a totally different team. Our defense is going to be better, we’re going to be faster. We’re going to be younger also. Adam Dunn is not old, but we’re going to faster. We’re not going to hit as many home runs, we’re not going to rely on the home run. We’re going to go out there and score in many ways. We have guys who can hit home runs, but we’re going to score a lot of different ways. We’re going to score a lot of runs, people are going to be very surprised. We’re going to be like a real National League team."

All that tells me is that Adam Dunn was much more a natural leader than Phillips. It also tells me that Dunn is a bit naive about who he chooses to trust considering the conversation Jpup reported. When there's a gap between what someone will say when they know they're being quoted versus what they say when they figure their words won't ever reach the interweb, then why exactly should be trust their public words?

And that whole passage from Phillips is nothing more than Brandon Phillips positioning himself as "The Man". The only positive is that he didn't speak in third person.

Razor Shines
01-25-2009, 01:18 AM
All that tells me is that Adam Dunn was much more a natural leader than Phillips. It also tells me that Dunn is a bit naive about who he chooses to trust considering the conversation Jpup reported. When there's a gap between what someone will say when they know they're being quoted versus what they say when they figure their words won't ever reach the interweb, then why exactly should be trust their public words?

And that whole passage from Phillips is nothing more than Brandon Phillips positioning himself as "The Man". The only positive is that he didn't speak in third person.

There is something to be said for leaders who don't have to continually remind us that "Hey, I am the leader of this team. Ya know?".

WVRedsFan
01-25-2009, 01:24 AM
I tend to agree with with those who say this has been blown out of proportion, but...I wonder about Brandon Phillips. What made him the leader of the team? The press? The other players? Is he really the face of the organizaton? I see tremendous jealousy in Brandon Phillips, and I do not like that. Is that the trait of a leader?

There are some in Cleveland who will tell you that the real Brandon Phillips is the guy who Jpup talked to and not the guy I saw on Thursday. I hope that's not correct, but this just adds to the ills of this team. You have to hope another leader steps forth in spring training.

WVPacman
01-25-2009, 01:30 AM
Wow I have to admit that im kind of shocked of how the way Phillips spoke to the reds poster and how he spoke about Dunn.I always thought he was a good guy but if he talks like this then I hope he talks to the players that way if they're in a slump.

Hey Jpup,do you think he might have just been having a very bad day or did he seem like that is his personality??

Ron Madden
01-25-2009, 02:58 AM
We’re going to be like a real National League team."

Yep, an early 1960's National League Team.

;)

RANDY IN INDY
01-25-2009, 09:53 AM
You've always been a fan of good character guys, Randy. Considering the proximity to the Jpup/Miller conversation, I can see why Phillips wanted to speak up had he heard something he felt was negative about his team. But do you think that maybe a more appropriate interjection would have been something like:

Phillips: "Y'know, Dunn's gone and we have to look at the team we have now. I'm excited and I think we're gonna' be fun to watch."

Heck, he could have gone on well past that extolling the real or imagined virtues of the 2009 Reds as currently comprised and I'd have come away with a good impression even if I disagreed. Instead, he turned to grandstanding and bashed a former teammate in the process. If Jpup was prepared for the shock and awe of it, he could probably have put Phillips in his place with responses like...

Brandon: "You know how many times he struck out?"

Jpup: "Yeah, I do. And if strikeouts are supposed to be so bad, then why would you have struck out nearly 110 times had you played a full season last year?"

Brandon: "How many RBIs did he have compared to his homers?"

Jpup: "Well, in 2008, Dunn had 40 home runs and 100 RBI. So he had 60 more RBI than he did homers. You had 57. He had more than you in 2007 as well."

Now, I can quickly forgive a baseball player for saying dumb things. They're paid to play baseball, after all. But when you're interjecting said dumb things while also trying to throw someone else under a bus, you'd better be squeaky clean yourself. Phillips isn't, and it has nothing to do with Adam Dunn. I honestly don't care who he was throwing under the bus, but when you meet someone who has a propensity to do that in order to make themselves look better, you can be fairly certain that you're dealing with someone of questionable character. It's quite obvious that Phillips desperately wants to be seen as "The Man", but true leaders don't behave in such a fashion.

Oh, and my fantasy coup de grace of Jpup's conversation:

Bob Miller: "We didn't have a lot of choice. His on base was .370 before that. It's hard to hit in Colorado."

Jpup: "Actually, Bob. Coors Field was the third easiest baseball environment in which to hit in both of the past two seasons. Is the GAB also a difficult htting environment and, if so, is that why Brandon's OBP was only .312 last season?"

BTW, I don't give a guy whose title is VP and Assistant General Manager a pass when he says dumb things like that. Is it too much to ask that your favorite team's Asst. GM knows the difference between a ballpark that caters to hitters and a ballpark that favors pitchers? That's just fundamental stuff.

Steel,

I don't doubt that he could have handled the situation better, but he is a baseball player and not a public relations man. Is Phillips wrapped up in himself? Definitely. Most professional ballplayers, college players or even really good high school players that I have played with, coached, been around, or met are just that. They come off as very cocky most of the time, but it's part of what makes them what they are. They are very confident and most times quite arrogant in their belief of themselves and their team. Some are a little more humble than others. Not so much, these days. Challenge them or question their or their teams' abilities and you will most likely get a lot of "strong personality" back. I find it very much the same with most athletes. If you get in that arena, you can expect it. Really, not unlike a lot of folks who have strong opinions on this site. Challenge them and see what happens.

Beyond that, and in today's Sportscenter world, we definitely have created some monsters. The shades of humility that we used to see a little bit of, has, for the most part, turned into a game of self promotion and "look at me" displays. I don't particularly enjoy that part of professional sports today. I was more of a fan of Vince Lombardi's theory on touchdown celebration. "This is the NFL, and you are a member of the Green Bay Packers. When you reach the endzone, act like you have been there before." My son watched a kid hit a home-run this past fall and circle the bases like a jerk. He looked at me at the end of the inning and said, "Daddy, I know that if I ever acted like that, you'd kill me." Well, I wouldn't kill him, but you get the picture.

lollipopcurve
01-25-2009, 10:17 AM
Phillips is promoting the team, talking the team up. I don't recall Dunn or Griffey doing much of that. Positivity is needed, badly. Actions speak louder than words, but having a guy who will gladly take attention takes some heat off the younger players, and that's a good thing with this team. Let's hope Phillips handles it well over the course of a long season. So far, he's been a GREAT PR guy for the franchise.

RANDY IN INDY
01-25-2009, 10:24 AM
Phillips is promoting the team, talking the team up. I don't recall Dunn or Griffey doing much of that. Positivity is needed, badly. Actions speak louder than words, but having a guy who will gladly take attention takes some heat off the younger players, and that's a good thing with this team. Let's hope Phillips handles it well over the course of a long season. So far, he's been a GREAT PR guy for the franchise.

I agree with that. He has been a smiling, positive face for the franchise as well as a really good player. If he continues to grow as a player and keeps producing, I can also see him growing as a leader. I hope that is the case. Votto and Bruce don't need that extra pressure to lead right now. Let them grow. I can eventually see one of those guys taking over that position in the clubhouse. Votto seems to be a strong "character" guy.

Highlifeman21
01-25-2009, 10:42 AM
I agree with that. He has been a smiling, positive face for the franchise as well as a really good player. If he continues to grow as a player and keeps producing, I can also see him growing as a leader. I hope that is the case. Votto and Bruce don't need that extra pressure to lead right now. Let them grow. I can eventually see one of those guys taking over that position in the clubhouse. Votto seems to be a strong "character" guy.

I'd love Phillips smiling much more if it was the result of him smiling as he took 1B after drawing a walk...

He sure does seem to smile a lot with his hacktastic ways at the plate...

Jpup
01-25-2009, 10:52 AM
Hey Jpup,do you think he might have just been having a very bad day or did he seem like that is his personality??

I think that he was probably tired and his real personality came through. I hope that he learns how to be a leader because no leader can talk to someone the way he talked to me. The biggest problem with the conversation was that he was trying to intimidate me. He kind of reminded me of a bully in middle school that always gets his way and likes to be agreed with at all times. "What he do? What he do? What he do?"

If he produces on the field, I guess I can live with his surly attitude. I'll not dwell on it any more. I have much bigger things to worry about that Brandon Phillips. I will forgive him and will move on.

BuckeyeRedleg
01-25-2009, 10:56 AM
career OPS+ of 87

2006: 88 OPS+
2007: 105 OPS+
2008: 92 OPS+

Defensively, he is a great player and a joy to watch.

Offensively, I see a guy who can't take a walk, hacks at nearly everything, grounds into more than his share of double plays, and adds a bunch of outs on the basepaths. Hopefully, he is busy this offseason working on the little things, that is, if he plans to take his game to the next level. Otherwise all he'll ever be is Pokey Reese, one more step evolved.

lollipopcurve
01-25-2009, 11:04 AM
I'd love Phillips smiling much more if it was the result of him smiling as he took 1B after drawing a walk...

Ah yes, the OBP ideology.

Any player without high OBP must be kept in his place. No positive qualities unqualified!

Razor Shines
01-25-2009, 11:11 AM
Ah yes, the OBP ideology.

Any player without high OBP must be kept in his place. No positive qualities unqualified!

It is a rather large component to offense, don't you think? How is anyone "keeping him in his place"? It's just that a lot of people see that Brandon could be a very, very good offensive player, and throw in his defense he could be a great overall player if he'd learn some plate discipline.

WMR
01-25-2009, 11:14 AM
I'd like to ask Brandon if he'd rather have his batting average and OBP or Dunn's BA and HIS OBP.

lollipopcurve
01-25-2009, 11:22 AM
It is a rather large component to offense, don't you think? How is anyone "keeping him in his place"? It's just that a lot of people see that Brandon could be a very, very good offensive player, and throw in his defense he could be a great overall player if he'd learn some plate discipline.

Gold Glove middle infielder. 30-30 guy. Spends A LOT of time with the fans. Yet, the amount of negativity directed at him on this site is probably as high as any player this side of Taveras. There are haters here.

Razor Shines
01-25-2009, 11:26 AM
.

Gold Glove middle infielder. 30-30 guy. Spends A LOT of time with the fans. Yet, the amount of negativity directed at him on this site is probably as high as any player this side of Taveras. There are haters here.

Yep, he's THE MAN! We know because he told us himself. Dunn knows what's up and now Jpup knows what's up, and if you meet him one day you'll know what's up.

WMR
01-25-2009, 11:27 AM
Yep, he's THE MAN! We know because he told us himself. Dunn knows what's up and now Jpup knows what's up, and if you meet him one day you'll know what's up.

:lol:

nate
01-25-2009, 11:31 AM
Don't be so hard on Phillips. It's his job at these events to blow sunshine up everyone's rearend and give the fans hope.

Let's face it, even he agreed with you that Dunn was a huge loss, he can just come out and say that the offense is going to be worse this year. Likewise, that other Reds' employee you are talking to has to put a positive spin on Taveres, etc.

If you were at a public relations event for your company, would you tell a stranger bad things about your employer? You wouldn't if you were smart.

If Phillips or someone on the Caravan says something like "Yeah, it was a mistake to let Dunn go and not replace him", he gets quoted all over the internet. It's just not safe.

Why can't he just say "you know, we're gonna miss the big guy but we feel good about our team this year and we're looking forward to the season."

Or somesuch lip service.

Pretty lame of him to try and trash Dunn.

nate
01-25-2009, 11:39 AM
.

Gold Glove middle infielder. 30-30 guy. Spends A LOT of time with the fans. Yet, the amount of negativity directed at him on this site is probably as high as any player this side of Taveras. There are haters here.

:rolleyes:

Always Red
01-25-2009, 11:46 AM
I think that he was probably tired and his real personality came through. I hope that he learns how to be a leader because no leader can talk to someone the way he talked to me. The biggest problem with the conversation was that he was trying to intimidate me. He kind of reminded me of a bully in middle school that always gets his way and likes to be agreed with at all times. "What he do? What he do? What he do?"

If he produces on the field, I guess I can live with his surly attitude. I'll not dwell on it any more. I have much bigger things to worry about that Brandon Phillips. I will forgive him and will move on.

I think that's a great attitude for you to have, Jpup.

I don't think Phillip's entire personality and worth as a human can be judged by one encounter that you personally were a part of. We all have good days and bad days, have times when we are magnanimous and loving of others, and times when we are small-minded and mean-spirited. I'll give you a nearly opposite example from my own experience...

Two years ago I had an opportunity to spend a few minutes with Johnny Bench, in a very small, familiar group of people. Bench was one of the absolute heroes of my youth, but I had long ago written him off as, basically, a pompous ass, because he has been that way to so many folks (people whom I have known and trusted) who have offered testimony to his behavior over the years. But that jerk wasn't the Bench I talked to that evening. He was warm, funny, interested in what I had to say, and thoughtfully answered my questions. I came away from that encounter with an entirely different view of John Bench, the man. That doesn't mean that Bench wasn't a jerk to all those other folks, or that they were wrong, it just meant to me at least, that Bench is a complex person who can be a really nice guy, or can be a pompous ass, depending on his mood. I think most of us can admit that we can be that way from time to time.

Maybe Phillips had been fielding questions on Dunn, Junior and the apparent lack of pop in the lineup all day long? Maybe you touched upon a truth that threatened BP a bit? :eek:

And also, just maybe, Phillips thought he was dealing with a typical Reds fan who hated Dunn and his strikeout rate, thought he could instantly appeal to you by pointing out the K's, and didn't realize that he was dealing with an extremely knowledgeable, veteran Redszone member?? :thumbup:

Highlifeman21
01-25-2009, 12:30 PM
Ah yes, the OBP ideology.

Any player without high OBP must be kept in his place. No positive qualities unqualified!

Phillips has had 1, repeat 1, good year offensively with the Reds.

He's a hacker who hasn't met a pitch he won't swing at.

If he'd stop trying to hit HRs, he'd be legit offensively, but right now the only good parts about Phillips game is his D and his speed.

BuckeyeRedleg
01-25-2009, 12:33 PM
.

Gold Glove middle infielder. 30-30 guy. Spends A LOT of time with the fans. Yet, the amount of negativity directed at him on this site is probably as high as any player this side of Taveras. There are haters here.

This is an overreaction and gross hyperbole.

jojo
01-25-2009, 12:38 PM
This is cool...we can segue from Dunn threads to Phillips threads! :cool:

I dunno. Dunn's value is mostly derived from being a big bopper at a non-premium position (his value is somewhat less than the back of his baseball card would suggest). Phillips' value is mostly derived from being a plus defender at a premium position (his value is somewhat more than the back of his baseball card would suggest).

Why does one need to evoke issues of the heart or fandom when talking about what these guys might be worth?

Really Phillips' big sins IMHO mostly derive from being born both with 1) a smile that the marketing department can use to create some imaginary "image of the Reds" that they can sell and 2) just enough power so that if everything broke right and he played in an offensive environment, he might have an atypical year where his dinger total matched some threshold of mythical importance.

If I had to choose, I'd take Phillips over Dunn as Phillips is the more valuable player overall.

nate
01-25-2009, 12:43 PM
This is cool...we can segue from Dunn threads to Phillips threads! :cool:

I dunno. Dunn's value is mostly derived from being a big bopper at a non-premium position (his value is somewhat less than the back of his baseball card would suggest). Phillips' value is mostly derived from being a plus defender at a premium position (his value is somewhat more than the back of his baseball card would suggest).

Why does one need to evoke issues of the heart or fandom when talking about what these guys might be worth?

Really Phillips' big sins IMHO mostly derive from being born both with 1) a smile that the marketing department can use to create some imaginary "image of the Reds" that they can sell and 2) just enough power so that if everything broke right and he played in an offensive environment, he might have an atypical year where his dinger total matched some threshold of mythical importance.

If I had to choose, I'd take Phillips over Dunn as Phillips is the more valuable player overall.

Why is it about their worth rather than just saying something dumb about a former teammate?

johngalt
01-25-2009, 02:13 PM
And I'm pretty sure that wasn't the only time that Brandon complained about the publicity Josh received. To me it just sounds like whining that he wasn't getting enough attention. God forbid that Bruce has a breakout season this year, Brandon is likely to have a nervous breakdown.


It wasn't simply about the publicity that Josh received and Brandon was hardly the only player who resented Josh. EVERYONE did, especially when you have a guy on the DL playing pool during a game rather than being with his teammates. It was about the whole situation and how Josh was handled, i.e. how Josh was spoiled and babied.

Razor Shines
01-25-2009, 03:09 PM
It wasn't simply about the publicity that Josh received and Brandon was hardly the only player who resented Josh. EVERYONE did, especially when you have a guy on the DL playing pool during a game rather than being with his teammates. It was about the whole situation and how Josh was handled, i.e. how Josh was spoiled and babied.

I disagree. The quotes I've seen from Brandon are about the publicity that Josh got, and him pointing out that there are other players on the team. Brandon wants to be THE guy, he wants the attention and unless Bruce has a break out year, he's going to get it.

wheels
01-25-2009, 03:25 PM
I don't care about anyone's personality.

It's a bonus if they're nice guys, but I don't expect them to be genteel in extemporanious situations 100% of the time.

Bob Miller, on the other hand, is a perfect example of why the club hasn't won in a decade.

The people making personnel moves are unbelievably stupid.

The guy thinks it's hard to hit in Coors field for crying out loud!

wheels
01-25-2009, 03:31 PM
Oh, by the way...

Lollipop, Adam Dunn has been to two caravans in Columbus.

I've talked to him both times, and for the record, he's as nice as anyone. He even chastized Austin Kearns for throwing his pool stick. Not that I'm one to care about that sorta thing.

lollipopcurve
01-25-2009, 05:07 PM
Bob Miller, on the other hand, is a perfect example of why the club hasn't won in a decade.

Bob Miller's the guy who knew the loophole that got Juan Duran signed while the rest of MLB wasn't looking.


Lollipop, Adam Dunn has been to two caravans in Columbus.

Didn't know that -- good for him.

Always Red
01-25-2009, 06:23 PM
Fay reports in from the caravan stop in Dayton today:

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3ac2234902-6161-4f7d-8224-898505412078&plckCommentSortOrder=TimeStampAscending&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com


Talking to Baker
Posted by JohnFay at 1/25/2009 3:38 PM EST on Cincinnati.com

I hit the Caravan stop at Wright-Pat today. By the way, the dusting of snow was bit more than that up north. Saw three cars spin off I-75.

The Reds drew a good crowd despite the weather. I spoke to Dusty Baker a bit. He had some interesting things to say, particularly about left field. It sounds like Chris Dickerson is going to be given every chance to be the left-handed part of a platoon. Here’s a bit of Hot Stove talk for Baker:

--On left field: “(Dickerson’s) one of them. If we started right now, it would probably be a platoon situation with him and a right-handed bat – whether it’s (Jonny) Gomes or Jerry (Hairston). I told Dickerson: Don’t let everybody give away your potential job. You got to fight for your job. It’s been a long, tough road to get to the big leagues. I’m not going to give away his job. But I’m not necessarily going to give him a job either. I’m going to give him an opportunity to win the job, which he did last year. You’ve got to give him some opportunity based on what he did last year. Last year at spring training, he was barely on the radar screen. The thing about sports is everybody doesn’t figure it out at the same time. I don’t think there’s anyone out there with much ability – speed, power, arm, glove.”

--On Alex Gonzalez being declared 100 percent: “That’s huge. I was praying for Alex. I was told you can’t depend on Alex. He wasn’t responding as well. I believe in miracles, too. I’m not saying this is a miracle. But I had a feeling that Alex was going to be better.”

--Does that put Hairston in the mix for left: “Jerry’s in every mix. Just because we heard this about Alex, we don’t know. He hasn’t played on daily basis yet. In my mind, we’ve got to protect him. I rather have too many that too few. We saw that last year with outfield. (Jeff Keppinger’s) in the mix, too I’m going to move guys a around in spring training to see who can play where. On my team, everybody plays.”

--On catching: “We’ve got Ramon (Hernandez) to catch. He’s going to do most of the catching. But that’s a very volatile position. I like (Ryan) Hanigan, too. I like aptitude and his attitude. He’s getting better and better. Ramon has to learn our staff. But Ramon has caught some of best staffs ever. He had that staff in Oakland. He them rocking and rolling, plus he’s a clutch hitter. I talked to people in the American League about him. They say he’s clutch.”

Mario-Rijo
01-25-2009, 06:33 PM
Hmmm, interesting stuff here. Way to go JPup! :thumbup:

I probably like Brandon more than most but one of my biggest pet peeves is rudeness. And if the tone of that discussion was as it appears then he was rude and there is no excuse for that, minus another point for his character. But even though he is a bit ill informed at least he was honest that has some positive value in it. Lord knows I get really tired of hearing the PC answer from sports figures all the time.

The real problem here is that the entire organization aside from a handful of players (Votto, Frazier, Alonso) do not understand the concept of how to be most effective at the plate. Jpup got a good discussion started but unfortunately didn't have the time to lay it all out it in it's simplest form. But at least he put their feet to the fire. Now if many others will have the courage to do the same. And maybe even go with a series of questions in hand and answers to any questions they zing back at ya.

corkedbat
01-25-2009, 06:53 PM
My proiblem with BP being the man ishis approach at the plate. He'll never being in the top 10 when it comes to BP, but he has shown the ability to hit the ball where it's pitched and be more selective.

I think with AD and Griffey gone he will relsih the chance to be the man and he equtes a bif part of that with hitting the ball of the parrk. We saw quite a bit of that last year and I'm preciting more of the same this year. I think the Hi/Lo for his OBP this year will be last season's .312 and I'm going with the under.

I think he can naturally hit 20-25 HRs and still OPS in the low-to-mid .800s. I think he believes he can hit 30-35 though and will push himself, but end up with the same 20-25 HRS and a sub-.800 OPS with about 20% more Ks.

Chip R
01-25-2009, 07:12 PM
I think he can naturally hit 20-25 HRs and still OPS in the low-to-mid .800s. I think he believes he can hit 30-35 though and will push himself, but end up with the same 20-25 HRS and a sub-.800 OPS with about 20% more Ks.


In his interviews he has talked about the new emphasis on speed rather than power. When talking with JPup he dismissed Dunn's HRs. However 30-30 is what got Brandon his new contract and he sure seemed to be swinging for the fences a lot last year. His dilemma is similar to a lot of players. They got - or will get - paid for hitting HRs at the expense of batting average and OBP. Even though the baseball cognescenti and lots of fans put an emphasis on team play such as sacrifice bunts and giving yourself up to hit the ball to the right side, doing that doesn't get a player paid.

Always Red
01-25-2009, 07:19 PM
More from Dayton today, courtesy of Hal:

http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2009/01/25/chris_dickerson_im_your_man.html




...Baker knows what CEO/owner Bob Castellini said about the bulging budget and there will be no more expensive additions. That, of course, doesn’t preclude a trade that doesn’t add significant payroll, if that can be done.

“We’re trying,” Baker said. “We’re really, really trying hard.” And about Castellini’s comment, Baker smiled and said, “I know you’ve ready about the payroll, but I’m still trying to push the envelope. I hope the fans understand what we’re trying to do and they’ll be happy when it all comes to fruition. Faith is what you can’t see. Sometimes you are forced to go in another direction. The direction we were taking before wasn’t working.

Baker said he senses the younger players get it more than some of the players who began with the team last season and there were three things he noticed last season that has to change:

ONE - “We had excessive strikeouts.” TWO - “We played poor defense.” THREE - “When we lost, some guys left the clubhouse like it was no big deal. It is a big deal to me. I don’t like to lose. My daddy used to tell people around me after I was part of a loss, ‘Stay away from him for about a week.’”

RANDY IN INDY
01-25-2009, 07:24 PM
#3 is never a recipe for success.

WMR
01-25-2009, 07:25 PM
Is this now Dusty's team or will he find another scapegoat if/when they approach 90 losses or more this season? I'd love to ask him that.

RANDY IN INDY
01-25-2009, 07:26 PM
#2 is always bad. And I won't get into #1 because that is a hopeless cause.

For me, the talent and attitude has to be there. Then, pitching, defense and timely hitting.

*BaseClogger*
01-25-2009, 07:27 PM
I agree with Dusty and was really hoping the defense would be improved for this season because it has been such a large portion of this club's demise since their great defensive team in '99. However, I don't think Dusty has very much influence over the team's defense. Players are what they are, and hard work can only overcome so much. A bad fielder is going to be a bad fielder and a good fielder is going to be a good fielder. It is up to Jocketty and the FO to supply Dusty with improved defensive players...

Mario-Rijo
01-25-2009, 07:44 PM
...Baker knows what CEO/owner Bob Castellini said about the bulging budget and there will be no more expensive additions. That, of course, doesn’t preclude a trade that doesn’t add significant payroll, if that can be done.

“We’re trying,” Baker said. “We’re really, really trying hard.” And about Castellini’s comment, Baker smiled and said, “I know you’ve ready about the payroll, but I’m still trying to push the envelope. I hope the fans understand what we’re trying to do and they’ll be happy when it all comes to fruition. Faith is what you can’t see. Sometimes you are forced to go in another direction. The direction we were taking before wasn’t working.

Baker said he senses the younger players get it more than some of the players who began with the team last season and there were three things he noticed last season that has to change:

ONE - “We had excessive strikeouts.” TWO - “We played poor defense.” THREE - “When we lost, some guys left the clubhouse like it was no big deal. It is a big deal to me. I don’t like to lose. My daddy used to tell people around me after I was part of a loss, ‘Stay away from him for about a week.’”

Wow, glad he recognized those things and has decided to fix the problems. Problem is he doesn't have the slightest clue how to fix the just as if not more important aspects of weakness for this team.

pahster
01-25-2009, 08:19 PM
I agree on the defense. But strikeouts? Really? Didn't seem to hurt the 2005 team too much.

*BaseClogger*
01-25-2009, 08:21 PM
I agree on the defense. But strikeouts? Really? Didn't seem to hurt the 2005 team too much.

But they weren't winners, dude... ;)

Highlifeman21
01-25-2009, 08:21 PM
Wow, glad he recognized those things and has decided to fix the problems. Problem is he doesn't have the slightest clue how to fix the just as if not more important aspects of weakness for this team.


Baker knows what CEO/owner Bob Castellini said about the bulging budget and there will be no more expensive additions. That, of course, doesn’t preclude a trade that doesn’t add significant payroll, if that can be done.

“We’re trying,” Baker said. “We’re really, really trying hard.” And about Castellini’s comment, Baker smiled and said, “I know you’ve ready about the payroll, but I’m still trying to push the envelope. I hope the fans understand what we’re trying to do and they’ll be happy when it all comes to fruition. Faith is what you can’t see. Sometimes you are forced to go in another direction. The direction we were taking before wasn’t working.

Baker said he senses the younger players get it more than some of the players who began with the team last season and there were three things he noticed last season that has to change:

ONE - “We had excessive strikeouts.” TWO - “We played poor defense.” THREE - “When we lost, some guys left the clubhouse like it was no big deal. It is a big deal to me. I don’t like to lose. My daddy used to tell people around me after I was part of a loss, ‘Stay away from him for about a week.’”

Looks like 1, 2 & 3 were solved by getting rid of Dunn.... less strikeouts, D will supposedly be better, and Dunn's no longer in the clubhouse.

FWIW, Brandon Phillips strikes out plenty too, and he's a big clubhouse pouter. Did I mention he's also the self-appointed "man" for the Reds.

To quote Raisor, Awe.some.

corkedbat
01-25-2009, 08:30 PM
In his interviews he has talked about the new emphasis on speed rather than power. When talking with JPup he dismissed Dunn's HRs. However 30-30 is what got Brandon his new contract and he sure seemed to be swinging for the fences a lot last year. His dilemma is similar to a lot of players. They got - or will get - paid for hitting HRs at the expense of batting average and OBP. Even though the baseball cognescenti and lots of fans put an emphasis on team play such as sacrifice bunts and giving yourself up to hit the ball to the right side, doing that doesn't get a player paid.

Yeah, I think my point though was he'll still probably hit in the range of 20-26 HRs (and possibly reach 30 with some luck) with either approach - he'll just help the team much more without selling out trying for the deep ball. . I'm not talking about sacrifices, just hitting the ball hard where it's pitched.

Always Red
01-25-2009, 09:20 PM
Looks like 1, 2 & 3 were solved by getting rid of Dunn.... less strikeouts, D will supposedly be better, and Dunn's no longer in the clubhouse.

FWIW, Brandon Phillips strikes out plenty too, and he's a big clubhouse pouter. Did I mention he's also the self-appointed "man" for the Reds.

To quote Raisor, Awe.some.

I agree- if you read through the lines, it looks like Dunn is the scapegoat.

Attitude and defense are important; attitude is more difficult to quantify, of course.

As for K's, here's an interesting stat from the 2008 season: the Reds finished 12th in the NL in scoring at 4.35 R/G. 5 of the 11 teams scoring more runs per game than the Reds also had MORE strikeouts than the Reds. The Cubs lead the NL at 5.31 R/G and had...more K's than the Reds. Reds pitchers also struck out more hitters than Reds batters had strikeouts.

FWIW, I believe that the Reds actually do know that strikeouts are not the worst thing that can happen; this is baseball 101. I think they know how much most fans dislike strikeouts, and are simply using Dunn as a scapegoat.

jojo
01-25-2009, 09:32 PM
109 ks? It's a sign of your fiery competitiveness.

160 or more ks? It's indicative of being a clubhouse cancer.

LoganBuck
01-26-2009, 12:58 AM
Can someone that has the ability to generate such stats, come up with the Runs Scored versus Runs Allowed from the point Dunn was traded, onward? I keep hearing about how good the defense will be and how speed will allow them to score more runs, especially from the Dunn haters in my life. Thanks in advance.

*BaseClogger*
01-26-2009, 01:19 AM
Runs Scored / Runs Allowed

W.D. (with Dunn)

510 / 610

A.D. (after Dunn)

194 / 190

Emin3mShady07
01-26-2009, 01:25 AM
^^gotta give context, pretty please, runs per game and such. even though I would say a half season is hardly indicative of true values.

*BaseClogger*
01-26-2009, 01:31 AM
^^gotta give context, pretty please, runs per game and such. even though I would say a half season is hardly indicative of true values.

Well, they played in 119 games W.D. and 43 games A.D. So, they averaged 4.29 RS/G and 5.13 RA/G before the trade and 4.51 RS/G and 4.42 RA/G after the trade...

Mario-Rijo
01-26-2009, 01:35 AM
^^gotta give context, pretty please, runs per game and such. even though I would say a half season is hardly indicative of true values.

More like 1/4th of the season w/o him. It's too small a sample but they did play well afterward and w/o Brandon's defense at 2B and Jay having the most brutal defensive month I've ever seen from an OF that's pretty interesting.

Ron Madden
01-26-2009, 04:26 AM
More from Dayton today, courtesy of Hal:

http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2009/01/25/chris_dickerson_im_your_man.html

Dusty Baker has no clue about what this club must do to have a winning season.

I thought last spring that maybe Baker understood the problem, when he said "the 2007 Reds gave up 70 more runs than they scored, we can't win like that".

The 2008 Club gave up 96 more runs than they scored. They got worse.

Now Baker is telling us the 2009 Reds will close that gap by playing small ball and cutting down on strikeouts.

I aint buyin' any of it.


:(

OUReds
01-26-2009, 05:16 AM
When the defense you run out on the left side of the diamond includes EE, a SS whose knees kept him on the DL last year, and a LF platoon with Jonny Gomes in it, you need to realize that things probably aren't going to be a lot better this year.

jojo
01-26-2009, 08:36 AM
Dusty Baker has no clue about what this club must do to have a winning season.

I thought last spring that maybe Baker understood the problem, when he said "the 2007 Reds gave up 70 more runs than they scored, we can't win like that".

The 2008 Club gave up 96 more runs than they scored. They got worse.

Now Baker is telling us the 2009 Reds will close that gap by playing small ball and cutting down on strikeouts.

I aint buyin' any of it.


:(

A scary theme from recent caravan comments is that they seem to have convinced themselves that one of the biggest problems they've had over the last several years is that they simply haven't wanted to win badly enough.

So a significant part of their plan is to want to win more (or at least they want to convince us that's the problem). That's very Bavasi-ish.

Ltlabner
01-26-2009, 08:49 AM
Now Baker is telling us the 2009 Reds will close that gap by playing small ball and cutting down on strikeouts.

To me this sums up the reason why so many fans are so disappointed thus far with the offseason (which, according to BCast is now over).

It's not really the players they got, or didn't get. It's not really who got traded and the return they did/didn't get. It's not really that certain ex-players are being pegged as the reason the team did so poorly the past few years. Those are the surface issues, that while worthy of discussion, aren't the real cause of the ire.

It's that apparently the Reds FO and definitely the manager have no earthly clue as to what it takes to prevent and score runs and ultimately win baseball games.

I don't believe for a second that Walt has become stupid or forgotten how to build teams. But I do believe that he's now surrounded by a sea of idiots instead of the LaRussas and Duncans of the world. Nope, he's got BCast on one side, Bavasi and Miller on the other and Dusty lurking around the edges.

Basically we are being told that what it takes to win baseball games is:

Knowing how to win
Wanting it bad enough
Running really fast
PTGTRW
Clubhouse leadership
Fire in the belly
Eye of the tiger

It's sickening really. Votto, Bruce, Phillips, Encarnacion, Volquez, Cordero, Burton, Harang, and some other fringy talent like Bray and Dickerson.... but we can't build a winning team?

Great...I predict we'll be out of it by June and by August the same people extolling small-ball, clutch and situational hitting will be clamoring for Walt to find us a big-bat to "score some runs".

Always Red
01-26-2009, 09:06 AM
Dusty Baker has no clue about what this club must do to have a winning season.

I thought last spring that maybe Baker understood the problem, when he said "the 2007 Reds gave up 70 more runs than they scored, we can't win like that".

The 2008 Club gave up 96 more runs than they scored. They got worse.

Now Baker is telling us the 2009 Reds will close that gap by playing small ball and cutting down on strikeouts.

I aint buyin' any of it.


:(

Well, and having a better attitude, too. The 2009 Reds will have a better attitude than the 2008 club, per Dusty's remarks.

You left that out!

Chip R
01-26-2009, 10:18 AM
Eye of the tiger



Sweet! I remember before every match, Hulk Hogan came out to "Eye of the Tiger" before every match and he always won. They may be on to something.

Razor Shines
01-26-2009, 11:21 AM
Sweet! I remember before every match, Hulk Hogan came out to "Eye of the Tiger" before every match and he always won. They may be on to something.

Um, excuse me but I don't think he won when he fought Rocky.

nate
01-26-2009, 11:35 AM
Um, excuse me but I don't think he won when he fought Rocky.

So we're all set there, then.

Chip R
01-26-2009, 12:00 PM
Um, excuse me but I don't think he won when he fought Rocky.


Dude, that was a movie.

jojo
01-26-2009, 04:19 PM
Building a better team by better branding....

Hey winning isn't everything-there's fiery, fun, losing.

I know that doesn't do much to uplift the growing pessimism around here but I really dislike the "image, marketing" aspect of things when it doesn't naturally flow from reality.

Now for something almost completely uplifting-Gomez for instance could be a plus if he's platooned. His defense stinks and he's got holes offensively but he is going to run through walls and I'll root hard for him if for no other reason than effort deserves respect even if the stuff dripping on my back likely won't bring May flowers.

lollipopcurve
01-26-2009, 04:23 PM
Building a better team by better branding....

Hey winning isn't everything-there's fiery, fun, losing.

Been a lot of losing lately -- time to change up the packaging, at least.

BuckeyeRedleg
01-26-2009, 04:31 PM
Been a lot of losing lately -- time to change up the packaging, at least.

Yeah, get pitchers that don't stink.

With that said, they finally have a decent staff. They are almost there.

It's just that all of the hitters are now gone.

lollipopcurve
01-26-2009, 04:38 PM
It's just that all of the hitters are now gone.

They're coming.

BuckeyeRedleg
01-26-2009, 05:06 PM
They're coming.


When?

Hopefully while the decent-pitching window is still open.

wheels
01-26-2009, 05:15 PM
Who's Gomez?

Did they make a move today?

jojo
01-26-2009, 06:30 PM
Who's Gomez?

Did they make a move today?

Jonny Gomes (http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/gomesjo01.shtml)-sorry for the spelling error. :all_cohol

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=MLB&id=3784

wheels
01-26-2009, 06:59 PM
Jonny Gomes (http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/gomesjo01.shtml)-sorry for the spelling error. :all_cohol

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=MLB&id=3784

Yes. I know about the Gomes signing, Jojo.

I was messing with you.:cool:

red-in-la
01-26-2009, 07:10 PM
Yeah, get pitchers that don't stink.

With that said, they finally have a decent staff. They are almost there.

It's just that all of the hitters are now gone.

Um, excuse me.....but they have a 30-30 second baseman, a 3B whose HR total goes up every year, a 1B who is actually more than I expected and uber-prospect Jay Bruce who is supposed to be the second coming.

That sounds like some offense to me. Both catcher and SS are covered by a plus offensive set of players. LF and CF are the only offensive question marks.

I really liked Dickerson last season. He seemed like he knew what he was doing. I don't know about Gomes or Nix or whatever.

I guess you are just supposed to flip a coin on Taveras.

Emin3mShady07
01-26-2009, 09:07 PM
The cubs have Derrek Lee, Aramis Ramirez, Geovani Soto, Alfonso Soriano, milton bradley, Mark Fontenot, and potential powerhouse Micha Hoffpauir. THAT is an offense, the reds were tettering on the edge of mediocrity needing only another solid bat or two to boost the offense and they signed Willy Taveras and Jonny Gomes. If the reds can score more runs than the Cubs they would be in good shape, but I doubt that is the case.

Blimpie
01-27-2009, 01:55 PM
#3 is never a recipe for success.Oh, I dunno... it seemed to have worked for Danny Graves--wait a sec.

Uhm, never mind....

:cool:

REDREAD
01-27-2009, 04:40 PM
Back to the caravan reports.. A friend of mine was in Polaris mall during the Reds' visit to Columbus. I don't know if this was covered yet or not.

He said attendence was pitiful. He said about 15 fans in the seats. He said he could've easily gotten a front row seat, and the personal interaction was pretty much 1 on 1 (since there was about 10 people from the Reds there).

He stood and listened a little bit and said the Reds guy said that Abreau is wanting 4 years at 10+ million and that is too much for the REds.

Big Klu
01-27-2009, 04:50 PM
I got some good news. Last Thursday on their way to Vienna, Thom's bus (which included Walt Jocketty, Jeff Keppinger, and Chris Valaika) stopped in Cambridge for a private luncheon with local media. At the luncheon they announced that that a local radio station, AM-1270 WILE Cambridge, has been added to the Reds Radio Network. While this doen't mean much to most of you, it was really big news to Reds fans in my area who have been relegated to second-class status behind the Tribe in recent years by the local media. 700 WLW often doesn't come in clearly around here, and the next closest affiliate, AM-1240 WHIZ in Zanesville, is over 30 miles away and powered by a hamster in a wheel, so we can't pick up their signal.

So anyway, it's got to be good news that the Reds are adding a radio affiliate. Right?

LoganBuck
01-27-2009, 04:53 PM
I got some good news. Last Thursday on their way to Vienna, Thom's bus (which included Walt Jocketty, Jeff Keppinger, and Chris Valaika) stopped in Cambridge for a private luncheon with local media. At the luncheon they announced that that a local radio station, AM-1270 WILE Cambridge, has been added to the Reds Radio Network. While this doen't mean much to most of you, it was really big news to Reds fans in my area who have been relegated to second-class status behind the Tribe in recent years by the local media. 700 WLW often doesn't come in clearly around here, and the next closest affiliate, AM-1240 WHIZ in Zanesville, is over 30 miles away and powered by a hamster in a wheel, so we can't pick up their signal.

So anyway, it's got to be good news that the Reds are adding a radio affiliate. Right?

That needs to go in the things to be optimistic about 2009, along with my reducing the clubs carbon footprint thought.

Big Klu
01-27-2009, 05:02 PM
That needs to go in the things to be optimistic about 2009, along with my reducing the clubs carbon footprint thought.

Good idea! Thanks!

redsmetz
01-27-2009, 05:45 PM
Back to the caravan reports.. A friend of mine was in Polaris mall during the Reds' visit to Columbus. I don't know if this was covered yet or not.

He said attendence was pitiful. He said about 15 fans in the seats. He said he could've easily gotten a front row seat, and the personal interaction was pretty much 1 on 1 (since there was about 10 people from the Reds there).

He stood and listened a little bit and said the Reds guy said that Abreau is wanting 4 years at 10+ million and that is too much for the REds.

It's not going to help the Reds that the Indians now have Columbus as their AAA affiliate. I hope the club will work harder at recovering some of the Columbus market.

osuceltic
01-27-2009, 06:09 PM
Um, excuse me.....but they have a 30-30 second baseman, a 3B whose HR total goes up every year, a 1B who is actually more than I expected and uber-prospect Jay Bruce who is supposed to be the second coming.

That sounds like some offense to me. Both catcher and SS are covered by a plus offensive set of players. LF and CF are the only offensive question marks.

I really liked Dickerson last season. He seemed like he knew what he was doing. I don't know about Gomes or Nix or whatever.

I guess you are just supposed to flip a coin on Taveras.

Thank you. I'm disappointed they didn't make more of a play for a big-time RH bat this offseason, but the offense isn't terrible. Bruce is THE key in my mind. If he makes a leap in Year 2, suddenly they're plenty dangerous. We'll see.

BuckeyeRedleg
01-27-2009, 07:01 PM
Reds RS-RA the last 5 years:

2004: 750-907
2005: 820-889
2006: 749-801
2007: 783-853
2008: 704-800

The point is, that although that hideous second number may be on its way down, the first number is not projected to do much more than it did in 2008, which was already sub-par.

Raisor
01-27-2009, 08:28 PM
Thank you. I'm disappointed they didn't make more of a play for a big-time RH bat this offseason, but the offense isn't terrible. Bruce is THE key in my mind. If he makes a leap in Year 2, suddenly they're plenty dangerous. We'll see.


Here's what the Reds did, by position, last year.
RC by Position (BA/OBP/SLG/OPS)

P 3.7 (114 .139 .146 .285)
C 63.2 (234 .330 .351 .681)
1B 108.0 (.292 .366 .493 .859)
2B 80.8 (.256 .305 .416 .720)
3B 90.7 (.250 .339 .453 .792 )
SS 77.9 (.272 .321 .368 .689 )
LF 109.5 (.247 .361 .500 .861)
CF 79.1 (.249 .299 .401 .700)
RF 90.0 (243 .331 .433 .764 )
DH 4.8 (.200 .282 .457 .739 )
PH 25.7 (.231 .305 .327 .631)

Pitchers, DH, and PH tend to stay pretty steady, so keep those the same.

C-The last three years, Hernandez has averaged 62 RC and 492 PA's. That leaves about 135 PA's for Hannigan, which based on his numbers last year would net another 16.2 RC. That's 78.2 RC (+15)

1B-If Votto can just maintain what he did in 08, and get 650 PA's AND the Reds keep the same production it got from Votto's fill ins from last year, then they'll get up to 110 RC (+2) [+17]

2B-Three year positional average for the Reds at 2B is 90.0 RC, so I'll go with that. (+9.2) [+26.2]

3B-Three year positional average for 3B is 97.3. Now, alot of people are expecting EE to break out this year, so I'll even add 5% to that. 102.2 (+11.5) [+37.7]

SS-JHj hit so far over his head at SS last year that I'm surprised he didn't develop a nose bleed. An 886 OPS in 149 PA's, yet as a group the Reds SS's (including those 149 PA's hada whopping 689 OPS. Stinky. I really can't see them being any better then that. It goes against my better judgement, but I won't even ding them a negative and just hope, somehow they can maintain.
(+0) [+37.7]

LF There's no way that Dickerson is going to hit 280 .393 .600 .993 in LF again this year. But I can see him OPSing 810 for 400 PA's. Give Gomes another 180 AB's against LHP and you're looking at 98 RC out of LF in 09. (-11) [+26.7]

CF-If Willy T puts up his normal numbers for 600 PA's and JHj puts up his normal numbers for 150 PA's, then the Reds should find an extra +5.8 RC in 09. (+5.8) [+32.5]

RF-Jay Bruce, overall last year, created 56 runs in 452 PA's. Over 600 PA's that's 74.3 runs created. Give him a 20% boost for 09, and that's 89.16 RC in 600 PA's. Add another 12 runs in 100 PA's for when he's not playing, and that's 101 RC. (+11) [43.5]

Awesome, the Reds should score about 44 more runs then last year. Oh, but wait, RC tends to overestimate a little bit. Actual RS is usually about 97% of RC, which puts us at +42.

That would give the Reds 746 runs in 09. That would have been good for about 9th in the NL last year, and 12 runs better then average.

Reds might actually have a decent shot at .500. Yippie!

This is why I'm so frusterated. Move Dickerson to CF bring in Dunn or Abreu in LF and that's a 30-ish run in the plus side, and maybe there actually is some hope for at least sticking around for the Wildcard.

Emin3mShady07
01-27-2009, 10:00 PM
I'd also say that there is some optimist on the defensive side. I'm not going to say UZR is a perfect stat, but it is pretty accurate IMO. Dunn is historically about a -10 to -12 run fielder in LF and I'd say that Dickerson would be about a +10 fielder, although there is not much data on him. So if he wOBA's like .350 which is a close proximity to his OPS if it is indeed around .810, then he would be (assuming Dunn wOBAs .385) 20 runs worse than Dunn on offense, over 650 PAs so from that stand point he is not even a run differential downgrade from Dunn. However, I bet he only gets about 400 PAs making him a +6 fielder (+13 over dunn) and a -12 hitter so 1 run better than Dunn in those PAs. And since Raisor has already calculated his offensive effect to the team, his defense adds 13 runs (a little more than a win) to the team total. Gomes's offense has also been accounted for and I'd say he is a wash defensively with Dunn, potentially worse so he provides no other gain.

If Gonzalez is healthy, I expect him to be a par fielder at SS, which between Kepp's and JHJ's UZRs is roughly a 15 run gain - now with dickerson and Gonzalez the reds are almost three additional wins better than last year. :thumbup:

However, there is a downgrade. Last year Patterson was a neutral fielder in CF with a decent arm. Willy Taveras in about -7 runs and was worse the year before, so if the trend continues he will probably be -7 runs or around that per 1000 innings in CF. If Taveras is run out there everyday, he might be a -10 downgrade from last year costing the reds a win, crap.

So I think the reds defense is 2 wins better than last year, however, if they did add a two win guy like Dunn and moved Dickerson to CF they would actually be 10 runs better in CF (than with Taveras, about even with last year) and 20 runs worse in LF (again from this year and even with last year) still making the D 1 win better than last year and the offense three wins better than it is now.

4256 Hits
01-27-2009, 10:06 PM
Good post Raisor but you forgot to factor in any injuries. This team has no back-ups that will give them anything but terrible at bats. Any team can expect at least two injuries that cost a player a significate playing time (month +) and at least 3 injuries that cost a shorter period(15+).

Say Votto or Bruce get hurt and you could see Gomes playing every day {scary}.

Raisor
01-27-2009, 10:08 PM
Good post Raisor but you forgot to factor in any injuries. This team has no back-ups that will give them anything but terrible at bats. Any team can expect at least two injuries that cost a player a significate playing time (month +) and at least 3 injuries that cost a shorter period(15+).

Say Votto or Bruce get hurt and you could see Gomes playing every day {scary}.

Oh, I know I skipped injuries.

Math changes when dudes get hurt.

REDREAD
01-28-2009, 12:38 AM
It's not going to help the Reds that the Indians now have Columbus as their AAA affiliate. I hope the club will work harder at recovering some of the Columbus market.

Yeah, the Reds have pretty much ignored the Columbus market while I've lived here (since 2002). We get very sporadic radio ads -- for example, one year they promoted College night for about a week and that was it.

Caseyfan21
01-28-2009, 12:54 PM
Yeah, the Reds have pretty much ignored the Columbus market while I've lived here (since 2002). We get very sporadic radio ads -- for example, one year they promoted College night for about a week and that was it.

The press that the Reds receive vs. the Indians is awful in Columbus. I hear local ads all over for the Indians winter caravan every year but never anything about the Reds. Not to mention the lineup the Reds brought to Columbus. Would the average fan even care to come get autographs of Thom and Jocketty? I could care less about meeting or getting autographs from any of the Columbus participants since the same batch of people were here 2 years ago. If they want to hit Columbus and win some fans over they need to bring a big name with them here. I haven't been to the Indians caravan in a couple years but I remember they brought a couple big names the last time I went.

DoogMinAmo
01-28-2009, 01:44 PM
Sweet! I remember before every match, Hulk Hogan came out to "Eye of the Tiger" before every match and he always won. They may be on to something.

I thought he came out to "I am a Real American"?:D

Chip R
01-28-2009, 02:23 PM
I thought he came out to "I am a Real American"?:D


He did after a while.

Big Klu
01-28-2009, 02:24 PM
I thought he came out to "I am a Real American"?:D

He came out to "Eye Of The Tiger" after his appearance in Rocky III. This also would have been right around the time he was tag-team partners with Mr. T in Wrestlemania I.

Originally, the song "Real American" was written by Rick Derringer (famous for "Rock And Roll Hoochie Koo" and "Hang On Sloopy") for the U.S. Express, the tag team of Barry Windham and Mike Rotunda. Prior to that, Windham and Rotunda had used Bruce Springsteen's "Born In The U.S.A." as their entrance music. After Windham and Rotunda broke up the team in late 1985, Windham left for Florida and the NWA, and the song "Real American" was given to Hogan.

REDREAD
01-28-2009, 05:52 PM
The press that the Reds receive vs. the Indians is awful in Columbus. I hear local ads all over for the Indians winter caravan every year but never anything about the Reds. Not to mention the lineup the Reds brought to Columbus. Would the average fan even care to come get autographs of Thom and Jocketty? I could care less about meeting or getting autographs from any of the Columbus participants since the same batch of people were here 2 years ago. If they want to hit Columbus and win some fans over they need to bring a big name with them here. I haven't been to the Indians caravan in a couple years but I remember they brought a couple big names the last time I went.


That was my thought as well. It was Jocketty, Thom, and a few minor players. At least in the past, Mercker came along.

Didn't really feel like it was worth wasting a Sunday afternoon to hear Thom and Walt talk.

westofyou
01-29-2009, 11:26 AM
The Reds ceded Columbus awhile ago, they now work down and sideways, too much competition going north.

REDREAD
01-29-2009, 12:36 PM
The Reds ceded Columbus awhile ago, they now work down and sideways, too much competition going north.

The Reds complain about being a small market, yet they are willing to cede Columbus.. sigh. That's yet another thing that they do wrong, IMO.

No matter what the level of competition is, the Reds aren't even going to have a chance in this market with no local radio affiliate, and no local TV, and no promotion.

I realize that since the Indians are a better team, they are not going to get the bandwagon fans, but it would be nice to at least see some minimal effort in the area.

Roy Tucker
01-29-2009, 12:40 PM
Columbus is mad at Cincinnati for not being gung-ho OSU fans.

;)

Chip R
01-29-2009, 01:33 PM
The Reds complain about being a small market, yet they are willing to cede Columbus.. sigh. That's yet another thing that they do wrong, IMO.

No matter what the level of competition is, the Reds aren't even going to have a chance in this market with no local radio affiliate, and no local TV, and no promotion.

I realize that since the Indians are a better team, they are not going to get the bandwagon fans, but it would be nice to at least see some minimal effort in the area.


That's the thing right there. They have to win. We have a generation of kids in central Ohio who have grown up without seeing the Reds in the post season - some who haven't even seen a .500 team. Meanwhile the Indians have been perennial division contenders for over a decade. They have gone to the World Series. They have been to the ALCS. It's natural to follow a winner and that's why central Ohio is Indians country. If the Reds start becoming contenders every year - and not just a fluke of 1 year - they can take back that part of the state from CLE. I don't care if they have half a dozen minor league teams there; if they are losers, few are going to care. If the Reds start winning, the rest will take care of itself. Radio stations will clamor to broadcast the games. Fox Sports Ohio will be the network that carries games there. Game results will be above the fold in the sports section instead on page 5. And if the Reds see interest up there, they will fan it. But they have to win first because fencesitting fans aren't going to support a below .500 team for long.

Big Klu
01-29-2009, 01:35 PM
The Reds ceded Columbus awhile ago, they now work down and sideways, too much competition going north.


Columbus is mad at Cincinnati for not being gung-ho OSU fans.

;)

Roy, that is the first thing that went through my mind, too. Columbus and Cleveland have this reciprocal relationship regarding OSU.

nate
01-29-2009, 01:37 PM
That's the thing right there. They have to win. We have a generation of kids in central Ohio who have grown up without seeing the Reds in the post season - some who haven't even seen a .500 team. Meanwhile the Indians have been perennial division contenders for over a decade. They have gone to the World Series. They have been to the ALCS. It's natural to follow a winner and that's why central Ohio is Indians country. If the Reds start becoming contenders every year - and not just a fluke of 1 year - they can take back that part of the state from CLE. I don't care if they have half a dozen minor league teams there; if they are losers, few are going to care. If the Reds start winning, the rest will take care of itself. Radio stations will clamor to broadcast the games. Fox Sports Ohio will be the network that carries games there. Game results will be above the fold in the sports section instead on page 5. And if the Reds see interest up there, they will fan it. But they have to win first because fencesitting fans aren't going to support a below .500 team for long.

Maybe the next installment in the "Major League" series can feature the Reds instead of the Indians.

*BaseClogger*
01-29-2009, 01:38 PM
Columbus is mad at Cincinnati for not being gung-ho OSU fans.

;)

No kidding...

BuckeyeRedleg
01-29-2009, 02:08 PM
Columbus is mad at Cincinnati for not being gung-ho OSU fans.

;)

Not to take this thread off on a tangent, but I don't think this is accurate (if you were being serious). Columbus has always been a Reds town. It's has been a huge supporter of Cincinnati Reds baseball.

There is a large population of Cleveland transplants within Columbus and I would bet that there is more of those transplants now than during the glory days of the BRM. That growing population of transplants combined with Cleveland's rise to power in the 90's possibly caused a shift in balance. Add that the Indians front office has been more agressive in almost every area within the Columbus market and their organization being from top to bottom a far better organization than the Reds and there you have it. I think the Reds fans that were Reds fans back in the day (like myself) are still Reds fans. Cleveland just may have won over some of the younger or undecided fans, and rightfully so. They have worked harder at winning them over, their product has been way more entertaining, and their stadium doesn't hurt as well.

If anything, Columbus has supported Cincinnati sports way more than Cincinnati has supported Columbus.

BuckeyeRedleg
01-29-2009, 02:20 PM
One more thing I'd like to add. With all of the colleges down in and around Cincinnati, I wouldn't expect Cincinnati to care as much about OSU sports. It just seems, if anything, there is some resentment or animosity towards OSU down there.

On the flip side, the fans that Cincinnati has in Columbus are patient and loyal towards their Reds. We just seem outnumbered more as this city has grown tremendously the past few years. Who knows? We could still be a majority. Call it the silent majority. Cleveland fans are a bit more obnoxious and the Reds haven't given anyone much to cheer about for nearly 20 years, so it's not a given that we are necessarily outnumbered.

However, with the move of their AAA team here into one of the finest stadiums in the minors, combined with the increasing success of their franchise and the Reds seemingly running in place for the past two decades, it is probable that if they are not the majority now they soon will be here in Columbus.

But one thing is certain, if you took away the support Columbus gives the Reds, the attendance down there would be even more pathetic than it is already.

Roy Tucker
01-29-2009, 02:22 PM
Not to take this thread off on a tangent, but I don't think this is accurate (if you were being serious). Columbus has always been a Reds town. It's has been a huge supporter of Cincinnati Reds baseball.

There is a large population of Cleveland transplants within Columbus and I would bet that there is more of those transplants now than during the glory days of the BRM. That growing population of transplants combined with Cleveland's rise to power in the 90's caused a shift in balance. Add that the Indians front office has been more agressive in almost every area within the Columbus market and their organization being from top to bottom a far better organization than the Reds and there you have it. I think the Reds fans that were Reds fans back in the day (like myself) are still Reds fans. Cleveland just may won over some of the younger or undecided fans, and rightfully so. They have worked harder at winning them over, their product has been way more entertaining, and their stadium doesn't hurt as well.

In fact, IMO Columbus has supported Cincinnati sports way more than Cincinnati has supported Columbus.

Yeah, I was just being a wise guy. Your answer is much more accurate. The Reds's marketing is improving, but overcoming the dropped ball of the past years will take time.

In many ways, Cincinnati is a funny little parochial and navel-gazing town. it's so inward-looking.

Jpup
02-12-2009, 06:27 PM
Here are 3 pictures from the Bowling Green stop on the Reds Caravan. I finally put them on the cpu today:

_Sir_Charles_
02-12-2009, 06:40 PM
I feel dumb for asking this because he looks familiar, but I can't put a name to the guy sitting between Dusty and Marty in that first shot. Who is that?

OnBaseMachine
02-12-2009, 06:41 PM
I feel dumb for asking this because he looks familiar, but I can't put a name to the guy sitting between Dusty and Marty in that first shot. Who is that?

It looks like a mustache-less Chris Welsh.

BTW, I believe that is Lee May beside Welsh, not Dusty. They look similar from a distance.

_Sir_Charles_
02-12-2009, 07:23 PM
Ah, I don't get to watch the Reds on TV so it's no surprise I didn't get Welsh. As for May...wow, you're right. At first glance I thought that was the Dust for certain.