PDA

View Full Version : When's the last time you felt this pessimistic about the Reds?



WMR
01-23-2009, 02:47 AM
I've only been following the Reds seriously since about 1998 or so...

this is easily the most pessimistic that I have felt, overall, heading into a season (as far as the Reds chances of going to the playoffs/winning the World Series ... as well as how I feel about the organization as a whole).

What about you?

dougdirt
01-23-2009, 02:51 AM
I felt a lot worse last year than I do this year. I don't think we are more than a 5% chance at the playoffs, but this season will be better than last year and we are heading into the right direction in my mind (well more so than we have in prior seasons).

KronoRed
01-23-2009, 03:20 AM
I've felt about the same about this team since 2005, only the names appear to change.
"Come see the kids, if we get a break or two..." rinse repeat.

RedsBaron
01-23-2009, 07:58 AM
2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008...........................

RFS62
01-23-2009, 08:10 AM
1982

edabbs44
01-23-2009, 08:11 AM
It hasn't been that long.

Always Red
01-23-2009, 08:20 AM
The early 80's were pretty tough times...

RedFanAlways1966
01-23-2009, 08:26 AM
I feel way-way-way more pessimistic about the setup of MLB than any one team. Sure you get an occasional fluke like Tampa Bay or Florida once in a while that gives the powers-to-be a nice cover, but the setup is what it is. A very unlevel playing field.

RFS62
01-23-2009, 08:29 AM
I feel way-way-way more pessimistic about the setup of MLB than any one team. Sure you get an occasional fluke like Tampa Bay or Florida once in a while that gives the powers-to-be a nice cover, but the setup is what it is. A very unlevel playing field.


I agree with that.

Raisor
01-23-2009, 08:32 AM
I feel way-way-way more pessimistic about the setup of MLB than any one team. Sure you get an occasional fluke like Tampa Bay or Florida once in a while that gives the powers-to-be a nice cover, but the setup is what it is. A very unlevel playing field.

In the last four years, 20 different clubs have made the playoffs.

I'd call that pretty competitive.

Ltlabner
01-23-2009, 08:38 AM
My pessimism is rapidly becoming apathy.

GAC
01-23-2009, 09:04 AM
October 15th, 2007




and counting

Strikes Out Looking
01-23-2009, 09:05 AM
I hate to bust the pity party with my cheerfulness, but I'm more optimistic than I have been for awhile. The NL Central is getting weaker, the Reds have the strongest starting pitching staff in years, and the defense should be better. Maybe they won't win the division, make the wild card or even win 81 games, but I think they will be an exciting team and I'll enjoy watching Bruce and Votto and Cueto and Volquez as much as I really liked watching the '84-86 youngsters (O'Neill, Larkin, Browning, Sabo, Oliver) develop into world champs.

cumberlandreds
01-23-2009, 09:12 AM
1983 Coming off a 101 loss season and they really weren't improved at all going into that season.

Jpup
01-23-2009, 09:37 AM
I've been a Reds fan since birth and while I feel optimistic about some players like Bruce, Cueto, Votto, Harang, Volquez, and Phillips, I just think the team is going to be terrible. I'm expecting 70 wins or less in 2009. I'm not sure I've felt this bad about a club since I was born.

Roy Tucker
01-23-2009, 09:39 AM
Actually, it was 1999. I thought there was no way that club would compete. I think that's what made that season so sweet.

The off-season for this team didn't go as I hoped, but they still have a lot going for it. I haven't given up. Hope springs eternal.

As I tell my kids, you never know. Baseball can be a funny sport.

Redhook
01-23-2009, 09:41 AM
I'm angrier, not more pessimistic. I actually see the positives with the club and believe they can compete in 2010 and beyond.

However, I'm furious that they are punting this year away. I truly believe they could've allocated the money better this offseason. I believe they could've added someone like Abreu and traded for a SS to make this squad reasonably competitive this year. This offseason exceeded my worst nightmares.

As it stands, this team has virtually no chance of making the playoffs. And that's why I'm so mad. They actually have some pitching for the first time in forever and they're going to waste it because they don't the offense to back it up. Making the right moves this offseason could've given this team a reasonable chance at making the playoffs.

redsbuckeye
01-23-2009, 09:52 AM
This might be the most pessimistic I've ever been, especially when I continue to see this teams supposed leader continue to spew meaningless quotes that just further my conviction of him not understanding how the game works.

When Dusty was hired at least the Reds had a some quality players. But now the only guy I feel all that confident about is Votto.

RedsManRick
01-23-2009, 09:54 AM
2008. Seriously, as disappointed as I am about the offseason, I'm more optimistic about this year than most of the last decade.

membengal
01-23-2009, 09:57 AM
1984 in the spring, coming off of back to back 100 loss seasons.

I(heart)Freel
01-23-2009, 10:03 AM
What day did we sign Eric Milton?

oneupper
01-23-2009, 10:10 AM
My "fandom" (fanness?) was revived by this board. I had lost track of the team in the 80's and followed the "good times" only in the 90s.
But since joining in 2004 this is the worst pre-season feeling.

RedlegJake
01-23-2009, 10:41 AM
I hate to bust the pity party with my cheerfulness, but I'm more optimistic than I have been for awhile. The NL Central is getting weaker, the Reds have the strongest starting pitching staff in years, and the defense should be better. Maybe they won't win the division, make the wild card or even win 81 games, but I think they will be an exciting team and I'll enjoy watching Bruce and Votto and Cueto and Volquez as much as I really liked watching the '84-86 youngsters (O'Neill, Larkin, Browning, Sabo, Oliver) develop into world champs.

Brothers in lonely optimism. I also think this will be an exciting squad. After Dunn and Griffey left I felt the Reds played a higher energy game, were more exciting and more fun to watch. I just don't get the horrible pessimism. This team is better by a long, long way than the squad that started the 08 season. I actually believe they could surprise everyone and make a run - I do believe they aren't strong enough to hold on all year yet but I'm looking for 85 wins this season. Seriously. If I'm at all disappointed it is the failure so far to acquire a serious middle lineup threat - that might have put them over.

Jpup
01-23-2009, 10:42 AM
Brothers in lonely optimism. I also think this will be an exciting squad. After Dunn and Griffey left I felt the Reds played a higher energy game, were more exciting and more fun to watch. I just don't get the horrible pessimism. This team is better by a long, long way than the squad that started the 08 season. I actually believe they could surprise everyone and make a run - I do believe they aren't strong enough to hold on all year yet but I'm looking for 85 wins this season. Seriously. If I'm at all disappointed it is the failure so far to acquire a serious middle lineup threat - that might have put them over.

Tell us how the Reds are better right now than they were in Spring 08.

Kc61
01-23-2009, 10:46 AM
I was most pessimistic years ago when they were wasting first round draft choices on guys they wouldn't sign and guys who were overdrafted because of lower salary demands. Right now, this is a pretty decent organization building for the long-term.

As for this year, I think it will be better than most are saying because the Reds have eliminated some enormous weak spots. Fifth starters with 7 plus ERAs, .238 OBP starting hitters with 366 at bats, I don't see that on this year's team. The bottom of the order could be Dickerson, Hernandez, pitcher, which is a huge improvement over last year.

I still wish they would have spent for a bigger hitting outfielder on a stop gap contract. It would have made it more interesting. Team really needs it. An Abreu or Dye pickup would have been great.

That said, they still will have some power, you don't need huge hitters for GABP, a solid guy will hit some homers there.

Overall, optimistic. 2009, slightly disappointed but team could still be decent.

Strikes Out Looking
01-23-2009, 11:03 AM
Tell us how the Reds are better right now than they were in Spring 08.

They are better at 1b and C and defensively at RF and LF. They are the same at 3b and 2b. SS and CF are the major questions. The starting pitchers 1-4 are set.

On paper they do not have as much power because of the LF situation. However, the RF will hit more homers than last years incumbent and they are much quicker.

One of the things that made me crazy about last year's squad was the first time through the order they would often get about one hit. I don't know the stats and I may be wrong, but it seemed to me, they were often down by a few runs after a 4 innings and the offense didn't come to life until later in the game. I think this years squad may not have that problem as much.

The Red's squads in the mid 80's weren't very good, but they were exciting and they were the start of a team that won a world championship. I think this nucleus and the farm system (that has stayed intact) can do the same and for that I am excited.

Finally, they play lots of games against the NL Central. Except for the Cubs, who is going to go 14-4 against the Reds? You just can't look at it in a vaccuum.

Plus, it's baseball. I followed them in 1982 and I'll do it in '09.

westofyou
01-23-2009, 11:05 AM
Having better LF Defense is consistently at the bottom of my baseball wishes and worries.

dfs
01-23-2009, 11:13 AM
The Ray Knight years were kind of a disaster.

westofyou
01-23-2009, 11:15 AM
http://reds.enquirer.com/1998/baseball98/covernewguys.jpg

cumberlandreds
01-23-2009, 11:21 AM
1984 in the spring, coming off of back to back 100 loss seasons.

Not that it matters that much but the Reds lost a mere 88 games in 1983 according to Retrosheet.
Looking further the 1984 Reds lost more games with 90 losses. But bringing Rose back brought an infusion of life to the franchise that just can't seem to happen now.

George Anderson
01-23-2009, 11:21 AM
I think for me what makes the recent pessimism different from the 80's is we still had greatness fresh on my mind from the BRM which had its run pretty much till 81'. The teams around 82' and 83' were pretty bad but that was only a 2 year drought before things started to turn around in 84' and 85'. It has been 10 years since this franchise has been anything close to playoff worthy and its sad because when I think of the current Reds the very first things that pops in my minds is LOSERS.

By nature I am a very optimistic person in life and in fact my past predictions on this board for the Reds season won/loss total was always well above .500 and in most instances I thought they were very playoff worthy. However I see this team as currently constructed to lose easily 100 games.

So to answer the question, my pessimism about this franchise has never been worse. But on the bright side, my predictions in the past have been way off so maybe I don't know what the hell I am talking about and just maybe there is hope for this team after all.

ochre
01-23-2009, 11:27 AM
two words:
Dann Bilardello.

I mean, who spells Dan with 2 'n's anyway?

Falls City Beer
01-23-2009, 11:28 AM
Aside from the continued cry of poverty from ownership, I'm not very pessimistic at all. I don't think they're going to be great this year, but I like the kids on the team. And I really enjoy watching Volquez. True aces rule, and he's the first the team has had since Rijo.

ochre
01-23-2009, 11:29 AM
and word up on the apathy tip.

of course, I sometimes mask my apathy with irreverence.

fearofpopvol1
01-23-2009, 11:38 AM
I don't think it's pessimism so much as it is a feeling of lost opportunity.

REDREAD
01-23-2009, 11:46 AM
I was much more pessemistic during the Allen/Lindner years. It was obvious they had no inclination to even try to make the team better. No inclination to rebuild the farm or do anything other than to sit back and let the revenue sharing roll in.

If the Reds don't make any more moves this offseason, I will be disappointed. Overall, I think Walt made a bunch of small, low impact moves which were good, but the team as a whole isn't that improved.

However, maybe I'm stupid, but I think this franchise has a bright future. After decades of telling the fans that the Reds are going to get interntational talent (and then not doing squat), the Reds are finally putting their money where their mouth is. They are also spending on the draft. In short, I think Walt is doing the complete rebuild that everyone wants him to do. He's just not going to firesale Phillips, Arroyo, and Harang to do it (which is fine by me, giving those players away for marginal prospects accomplishes nothing). I think we will see veterans traded this year if Walt gets a good return for them.

Other than Rhodes, all the guys Walt has picked up this year are relatively young. If a guy like Tavares or Gomez produces, they can be tacked on to the core of young players we have for the future.

TRF
01-23-2009, 11:50 AM
I like the youth that's getting a shot. I like the youth at AAA/AA. I loathe most of the offseason deals though.

2002. reminds me of 2002.

Falls City Beer
01-23-2009, 12:02 PM
Other than maybe the Taveras deal, there's nothing to loathe about the offseason deals. That's some serious hyperbole.

I guess I could see being frustrated by inaction, but none of the offseason deals has sunk the team longterm. Not even close.

TRF
01-23-2009, 12:05 PM
Other than maybe the Taveras deal, there's nothing to loathe about the offseason deals. That's some serious hyperbole.

I guess I could see being frustrated by inaction, but none of the offseason deals has sunk the team longterm. Not even close.

no, loathe works for me. Taveras is the epitome of suck. SS wasn't addressed at all, not even talked about. LF not addressed adequately. Abreu would have worked, but it was all talk and no action. Instead the Reds sign Gomes and Nix.

yippee.

marcshoe
01-23-2009, 12:06 PM
In the summer of 1982 I came home from spending a couple of years abroad. I had kept up with the Reds by reading the Washington Post at the consulate, and one of their columnists kept insisting that the Reds really couldn't be as bad as they were playing, not after the year before.

When I got to watch the team play for myself, I knew he was wrong. I was seized with absolute horror.

Falls City Beer
01-23-2009, 12:24 PM
no, loathe works for me. Taveras is the epitome of suck. SS wasn't addressed at all, not even talked about. LF not addressed adequately. Abreu would have worked, but it was all talk and no action. Instead the Reds sign Gomes and Nix.

yippee.

You loathe inaction, then. Fair enough.

TRF
01-23-2009, 12:28 PM
I suppose that is correct. If I can see the glaring deficiencies of this team, Walt had better be able to see them. If I can see that the defense is hinging on a quality defender at SS, Walt better know that too. In fact I'm positive he knows it and that he's gambling on Valaika tearing up AAA pitching and forcing the Reds hand.

I liked the move to get Hernandez as I think having him will help Cueto progress.

But how can a man with his resume think what he did to get Taveras was anything close to resembling a good idea?

WebScorpion
01-23-2009, 12:34 PM
It's not that I'm more or less optimistic than any other lost season, it's that I felt we were so close and the GM indicated that he saw the same two weaknesses I saw, then proceeded to make moves that did nothing to cover those weaknesses and now says he's out of money. I've been pessimistic about their chances, but always held out hope that it might get better. This off-season has pretty much dashed any hope that Walt Jocketty will be able (or allowed) to fix anything. I'm angry, disappointed, and beginning to become apathetic. About the only thing that could save my hope would be if Taveras transformed himself into Rickey Henderson II in the off-season AND Alex Gonzalez becomes the Alex Gonzalez of 2007. :(

OnBaseMachine
01-23-2009, 12:58 PM
Seriously, as disappointed as I am about the offseason, I'm more optimistic about this year than most of the last decade.

Same here.

WVRedsFan
01-23-2009, 01:00 PM
Same here.

This time of year, I'm never pessimistic. I am awaiting spring training--a new start--and looking forward to the season regardless of the odds of succeeding. I am no different now.

WMR
01-23-2009, 01:37 PM
I'm angrier, not more pessimistic. I actually see the positives with the club and believe they can compete in 2010 and beyond.

However, I'm furious that they are punting this year away. I truly believe they could've allocated the money better this offseason. I believe they could've added someone like Abreu and traded for a SS to make this squad reasonably competitive this year. This offseason exceeded my worst nightmares.

As it stands, this team has virtually no chance of making the playoffs. And that's why I'm so mad. They actually have some pitching for the first time in forever and they're going to waste it because they don't the offense to back it up. Making the right moves this offseason could've given this team a reasonable chance at making the playoffs.

Great post, Redhook. You really speak for me.

OnBaseMachine
01-23-2009, 01:52 PM
This time of year, I'm never pessimistic. I am awaiting spring training--a new start--and looking forward to the season regardless of the odds of succeeding. I am no different now.

I agree. I get fed up by some of the offseason moves but I'm almost always optimistic around this time of the year. I can't wait for baseball to begin. Only 22 days until Spring Training!

red-in-la
01-23-2009, 01:59 PM
I'm angrier, not more pessimistic. I actually see the positives with the club and believe they can compete in 2010 and beyond.

However, I'm furious that they are punting this year away. I truly believe they could've allocated the money better this offseason. I believe they could've added someone like Abreu and traded for a SS to make this squad reasonably competitive this year. This offseason exceeded my worst nightmares.

As it stands, this team has virtually no chance of making the playoffs. And that's why I'm so mad. They actually have some pitching for the first time in forever and they're going to waste it because they don't the offense to back it up. Making the right moves this offseason could've given this team a reasonable chance at making the playoffs.

I remember getting mad (like this) when Mario Soto would pratically pitch a no-hitter and lose because of the rotten team that was around him.

But I agree, this awful line gets me mad. We spent 10 million dollars on junk-food and then claim we cannot afford supper.

Always Red
01-23-2009, 02:29 PM
Only 22 days until Spring Training!

That sounds so good to my ears! :thumbup:

Hope springs eternal...

Stormy
01-23-2009, 03:23 PM
no, loathe works for me. Taveras is the epitome of suck. SS wasn't addressed at all, not even talked about. LF not addressed adequately. Abreu would have worked, but it was all talk and no action. Instead the Reds sign Gomes and Nix.

yippee.


Loathe is a perfect word for me, as well. The Reds have some very nice young talent on the ascent with the ballclub, and some interesting pieces of the puzzle rising through the farm system. As a result of this foundation, a group of trained seals could have easily navigated the waters of a successful offseason, but our GM apparently couldn't.

Acquire a strong LF bat for the short-term, which were available in abundance. Make one cornerstone trade to upgrade your SS position for the present and future. Continue to strengthen the bullpen with viable long-term solutions. Don't overspend on CF, nor downgrade the production you can get from a Dickerson/RHH platoon. Pull the majority of these moves, and we actually have a .500+ team to enjoy while the youngsters come of age.

Instead, we go 0-for-4 in addressing every major issue confronting this ballclub. We downgraded CF in terms of production, and money allocated to the position, and displaced Dickerson in the process. The SS situation remains an unmitigated nightmare, and by extension so will much of the infield defense. The bullpen overspent on extending a player likely to start decline, and in acquiring another who has no long-term viability with the unit. And the big LF bat we needed is now in the hands of an unproven platoon situation.

For a team with so much young promise, I've rarely seen a more dishearteningly apathetic offseason. I guess Walt was dubbed "Wait" Jocketty for a reason during his early years in St. Louis. Pretty sure Krivsky could have remained if this is all we are expecting from our General Management.

Marc D
01-23-2009, 03:24 PM
I'm angrier this year more so than the past 8 or so.

I'm one of the displaced ones that never gets to enjoy dollar hot dogs. Normally I can let it roll off my back because I rationalize it as a once in a while type occurance.

This year, living out of state, I'm going to be missing out on dollar dogs so often I think it will really affect my enjoyment of the season. :(

BuckeyeRedleg
01-23-2009, 03:25 PM
Loathe is a perfect word for me, as well. The Reds have some very nice young talent on the ascent with the ballclub, and some interesting pieces of the puzzle rising through the farm system. As a result of this foundation, a group of trained seals could have easily navigated the waters of a successful offseason, but our GM apparently couldn't.

Acquire a strong LF bat for the short-term, which were available in abundance. Make one cornerstone trade to upgrade your SS position for the present and future. Continue to strengthen the bullpen with viable long-term solutions. Don't overspend on CF, nor downgrade the production you can get from a Dickerson/RHH platoon. Pull the majority of these moves, and we actually have a .500+ team to enjoy while the youngsters come of age.

Instead, we go 0-for-4 in addressing every major issue confronting this ballclub. We downgraded CF in terms of production, and money allocated to the position, and displaced Dickerson in the process. The SS situation remains an unmitigated nightmare, and by extension so will much of the infield defense. The bullpen overspent on extending a player likely to start decline, and in acquiring another who has no long-term viability with the unit. And the big LF bat we needed is now in the hands of an unproven platoon situation.

For a team with so much young promise, I've rarely seen a more dishearteningly apathetic offseason. I guess Walt was dubbed "Wait" Jocketty for a reason in his early years in St. Louis.

Amen.

Good to see you around, Stormy.

Stormy
01-23-2009, 03:27 PM
Amen.

Good to see you around, Stormy.

Thanks, buckeye, good to see you too.

P.S. I am happy about the anticipated catching upgrade, so there's a very mild positive.

NC Reds
01-23-2009, 03:38 PM
I'm more excited about driving to Zebulon and watching the Carolina Mudcats this year. I usually figure the Reds for a winning record each season (often I am wrong). As is, I expect 90+ losses this year.

I can't remember when I was this pessimistic about one season. I would look forward to a team stocked with talent drafted and developed by the organization though. Maybe 2010....

Caveat Emperor
01-23-2009, 04:42 PM
No matter how bad things are this year, at least I'll never have to watch any of the following pitch a game for the Reds:

* Eric Milton
* Elizardo Ramirez
* Ramon Ortiz
* Luke Hudson
* Brian Reith
* Phil Dumatrait
* Danny Serafini

...or any of the "Killer Js":
* Jimmy Haynes
* Jimmy Anderson
* Joey Hamilton
* Joe Mays
* Jeff Austin
* Jose Acevedo

_Sir_Charles_
01-23-2009, 04:47 PM
When's the last time you felt this pessimistic about the Reds?

Well, I'm not pessimistic about them this season. I'm rather looking forward to it. I think the most pessimistic I've been was back in the early 2000's. When you see a pitching staff rolling guys out there like Dessens, Reitsma, Haynes, Hamilton & Dempster it's just demoralizing. This season, while there's not as much pop in the lineup, the pitching looks like the best I've ever seen it. And I've been following them since the early 70's.

wheels
01-23-2009, 04:51 PM
This is the most pessimistic I've ever been.

I guess I'll find out this season how much more I can actually take.

Living in the middle of a state that has two Major League teams gives me an interesting option.

I plan on attending a few more games in Cleveland this season, that's for sure.

REDREAD
01-23-2009, 04:52 PM
, and some interesting pieces of the puzzle rising through the farm system. As a result of this foundation, a group of trained seals could have easily navigated the waters of a successful offseason, but our GM apparently couldn't.

Acquire a strong LF bat for the short-term, which were available in abundance. Make one cornerstone trade to upgrade your SS position for the present and future. Continue to strengthen the bullpen with viable long-term solutions. Don't overspend on CF, nor downgrade the production you can get from a Dickerson/RHH platoon. Pull the majority of these moves, and we actually have a .500+ team to enjoy while the youngsters come of age.



I'm disappointed in this offseason too. But I think you are over simplifying the task at hand, assuming the Reds are out of money like Cast/Walt said.

Here's the 2009 salary we added:
Taveres: 2 million
Linclon: 2 million
Rhodes: 2 million
Gomez and Nix: about 1.5 million combined.
Hernandez: 2 million
Weathers: 4.6 million (I assuming he wins in arb)

Looks like Walt had about 14 million to work with.
I agree that offering Weathers arbitration was a mistake, but most of the board favored that move.

Most of the board was ok with Lincoln, Rhodes, Gomez, and Hernandez.

Tavares was really the only widely criticized move. I guess I can put Nix in the criticized moves too.. So that's really about 2.6 million of money poorly allocated, based on the consensus of the board.

There's simply not enough money to get a real LF and fill all the other needs.
No way to get a young great SS without giving up someone like Votto/Bruce.

If Wayne hadn't signed Cordero, AGon, and Freel, there would've been more payflex.

I am disappointed with Cast for not opening up the payroll enough to get a real LF, but apparently those are the cards Walt was dealt.

Sure, we could've probably signed Abreu for that 14 million, but then who fills Catcher, 3 bullpen slots, and the platoon partner for Dickerson? IMO, we aren't going to get a CF much better than Taveres for 2 million (or 3 million if you want to average the cost over 2 years). Not saying that Tavares is a superstar or anything, but he wasn't a budget breaker by any means.

_Sir_Charles_
01-23-2009, 04:58 PM
I'm disappointed in this offseason too. But I think you are over simplifying the task at hand, assuming the Reds are out of money like Cast/Walt said.

Here's the 2009 salary we added:
Taveres: 2 million
Linclon: 2 million
Rhodes: 2 million
Gomez and Nix: about 1.5 million combined.
Hernandez: 2 million
Weathers: 4.6 million (I assuming he wins in arb)

Looks like Walt had about 14 million to work with.
I agree that offering Weathers arbitration was a mistake, but most of the board favored that move.

Most of the board was ok with Lincoln, Rhodes, Gomez, and Hernandez.

Tavares was really the only widely criticized move. I guess I can put Nix in the criticized moves too.. So that's really about 2.6 million of money poorly allocated, based on the consensus of the board.

There's simply not enough money to get a real LF and fill all the other needs.
No way to get a young great SS without giving up someone like Votto/Bruce.

If Wayne hadn't signed Cordero, AGon, and Freel, there would've been more payflex.

I am disappointed with Cast for not opening up the payroll enough to get a real LF, but apparently those are the cards Walt was dealt.

Sure, we could've probably signed Abreu for that 14 million, but then who fills Catcher, 3 bullpen slots, and the platoon partner for Dickerson? IMO, we aren't going to get a CF much better than Taveres for 2 million (or 3 million if you want to average the cost over 2 years). Not saying that Tavares is a superstar or anything, but he wasn't a budget breaker by any means.

Great post. Lots of people here look at one signing and fail to look at the rest of the picture. I didn't see ANY left-field candidates worth having that was going to sign in Cincy for the amounts we had available. And don't forget the EE arbitration bump. That'll be pretty steep I'm guessing.

membengal
01-23-2009, 05:01 PM
Sir Charles, stop. Just stop. Please. ANY left-field candidates? Really? In this market? There are STILL LF candidates out there that Cincy could have had. Don't burn money on Weather, don't burn money on Taveras, don't burn money on Hairston, voila, money for a LFer! ALL that takes is trusting your replacement level talent in-house. Ridiculous.

Chip R
01-23-2009, 05:08 PM
In the last four years, 20 different clubs have made the playoffs.

I'd call that pretty competitive.


In the last 30 years, 20 different teams have won the World Series.

wheels
01-23-2009, 05:10 PM
Sir Charles, stop. Just stop. Please. ANY left-field candidates? Really? In this market? There are STILL LF candidates out there that Cincy could have had. Don't burn money on Weather, don't burn money on Taveras, don't burn money on Hairston, voila, money for a LFer! ALL that takes is trusting your replacement level talent in-house. Ridiculous.

Oh yeah, and there are these things called "trades", too.

Don't know too much about them, 'cept that other teams sometimes find a player they like on another team, and swap guys they don't need as much for 'em.

Heck, I even heard that the Yankees traded for a pretty decent guy from the White Sox and didn't even give up much to get him.

Wonder what that's all about?

_Sir_Charles_
01-23-2009, 05:10 PM
Sir Charles, stop. Just stop. Please. ANY left-field candidates? Really? In this market? There are STILL LF candidates out there that Cincy could have had. Don't burn money on Weather, don't burn money on Taveras, don't burn money on Hairston, voila, money for a LFer! ALL that takes is trusting your replacement level talent in-house. Ridiculous.


I was all for us cutting ties with Weathers. I also understand the hatred for the Taveras signing. And burning money on Hairston...that I don't get. He signed for a pretty small amount and he was one of the best players on the team last season AND he's about as versitile as you can get in terms of where he can play. But let's put all that aside...who's this LF'er that you want?

Left Fielders
Moises Alou ... 42 years old (type B)
Garret Anderson...36 (B)
Emil Brown....34
Dunn....29 (A)
Luis Gonzalez....41 (B)
Jacque Jones....33
Jay Payton...36
Manny Ramirez...36 (A)

Center Fielders
Jim Edmonds....38

Right Fielders
Abreu...34 (A)
Griffey....39 (B)
Hinske....31
Wilkerson....31

Okay, you pick. And you've got to remember that you've probably only got about 8 million to spend at the most AND you've got to be willing to part with your draft picks if it's an A/B type. I sure as hell don't see anybody I want within those constraints. (I'm tempted by Edmonds though...if it's for the right length and amount)

So for me, that leaves the trade route. And I'd be shocked if they weren't still exploring that route.

wheels
01-23-2009, 05:13 PM
Loathe is a perfect word for me, as well. The Reds have some very nice young talent on the ascent with the ballclub, and some interesting pieces of the puzzle rising through the farm system. As a result of this foundation, a group of trained seals could have easily navigated the waters of a successful offseason, but our GM apparently couldn't.

Acquire a strong LF bat for the short-term, which were available in abundance. Make one cornerstone trade to upgrade your SS position for the present and future. Continue to strengthen the bullpen with viable long-term solutions. Don't overspend on CF, nor downgrade the production you can get from a Dickerson/RHH platoon. Pull the majority of these moves, and we actually have a .500+ team to enjoy while the youngsters come of age.

Instead, we go 0-for-4 in addressing every major issue confronting this ballclub. We downgraded CF in terms of production, and money allocated to the position, and displaced Dickerson in the process. The SS situation remains an unmitigated nightmare, and by extension so will much of the infield defense. The bullpen overspent on extending a player likely to start decline, and in acquiring another who has no long-term viability with the unit. And the big LF bat we needed is now in the hands of an unproven platoon situation.

For a team with so much young promise, I've rarely seen a more dishearteningly apathetic offseason. I guess Walt was dubbed "Wait" Jocketty for a reason during his early years in St. Louis. Pretty sure Krivsky could have remained if this is all we are expecting from our General Management.

I'm starting to figure you out.

Don't post for months on end. Drop in, say something poignant, bask in the accolades.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

You should be here sucking the muck every day like the rest of us.:p:

durl
01-23-2009, 05:13 PM
I've got to be honest. Reading all the negative posts makes me feel far more lousy than when I think about the upcoming season.

"We're gonna stink this year, right?"
"You bet. Worse team ever to wear a Reds uniform."
"I just ran the Inkjet Zippy Plot Barometric numbers on the lineup and it's lousy."
"Man, we must be REALLY bad then."
"Worst team ever to wear a Reds uniform."
"Why do we follow this team? They're pathetic."
"I agree. If the GM would just listen to us, we'd win the Series every year."
"Yep, but they just don't understand baseball so we're stuck with a lousy team again."
"Did I mention they're going to be the worst team ever to wear a Reds uniform?"
"Yeah. But at least we can come here and keep telling each other that. It makes me feel good."

I keep having flashbacks to a funny song they'd sing on Hee Haw, "Gloom, despair, and agony on me. Deep, dark, depression; excessive misery..."

I know..."people have the right to vent." But I also have the right to comment on it.

wheels
01-23-2009, 05:15 PM
I was all for us cutting ties with Weathers. I also understand the hatred for the Taveras signing. And burning money on Hairston...that I don't get. He signed for a pretty small amount and he was one of the best players on the team last season AND he's about as versitile as you can get in terms of where he can play. But let's put all that aside...who's this LF'er that you want?

Left Fielders
Moises Alou ... 42 years old (type B)
Garret Anderson...36 (B)
Emil Brown....34
Dunn....29 (A)
Luis Gonzalez....41 (B)
Jacque Jones....33
Jay Payton...36
Manny Ramirez...36 (A)

Center Fielders
Jim Edmonds....38

Right Fielders
Abreu...34 (A)
Griffey....39 (B)
Hinske....31
Wilkerson....31

Okay, you pick. And you've got to remember that you've probably only got about 8 million to spend at the most AND you've got to be willing to part with your draft picks if it's an A/B type. I sure as hell don't see anybody I want within those constraints. (I'm tempted by Edmonds though...if it's for the right length and amount)

So for me, that leaves the trade route. And I'd be shocked if they weren't still exploring that route.

Shocked?

You really think something substantial is in the offing via trade?

Really?
















Really?

wheels
01-23-2009, 05:18 PM
I've got to be honest. Reading all the negative posts makes me feel far more lousy than when I think about the upcoming season.

"We're gonna stink this year, right?"
"You bet. Worse team ever to wear a Reds uniform."
"I just ran the Inkjet Zippy Plot Barometric numbers on the lineup and it's lousy."
"Man, we must be REALLY bad then."
"Worst team ever to wear a Reds uniform."
"Why do we follow this team? They're pathetic."
"I agree. If the GM would just listen to us, we'd win the Series every year."
"Yep, but they just don't understand baseball so we're stuck with a lousy team again."
"Did I mention they're going to be the worst team ever to wear a Reds uniform?"
"Yeah. But at least I can come here and keep telling each other that. It makes me feel good."

I keep having flashbacks to a funny song they'd sing on Hee Haw, "Gloom, despair, and agony on me. Deep, dark, depression; excessive misery..."

I know..."people have the right to vent." But I also have the right to comment on it.


Okay.

Let us all just lie about our feelings instead.

If you don't like negativity, don't click on a thread with the word "pessimistic" in the title.

_Sir_Charles_
01-23-2009, 05:18 PM
Yes, really. I'm not saying that they have something in the works. I'm saying that I'd be shocked if they weren't still open to that option. I'm saying that once ST starts, the odds of a deal taking shape are still pretty decent. I'm saying that at some time during the season the odds are decent of a trade or two. Of course, I'm not quite sure why it shocks you.

wheels
01-23-2009, 05:30 PM
Yes, really. I'm not saying that they have something in the works. I'm saying that I'd be shocked if they weren't still open to that option. I'm saying that once ST starts, the odds of a deal taking shape are still pretty decent. I'm saying that at some time during the season the odds are decent of a trade or two. Of course, I'm not quite sure why it shocks you.

So instead of having a plan in the works, they're now merely open to the option?

I'm sure they're "open" to anything.

Anything that doesn't cost them money, that is.

Ltlabner
01-23-2009, 05:30 PM
Don't forget, Taveras is just here for depth.

durl
01-23-2009, 06:20 PM
Okay.

Let us all just lie about our feelings instead.

If you don't like negativity, don't click on a thread with the word "pessimistic" in the title.

Trust me, I'm all about getting things out in the open. But there comes a time when negativity feeds on negativity. People are not confident about the team...I get it. However, after a plethora of threads filled with terms like "pessimistic," "worst ownership," "lousy," "pathetic," "crappy," "bad move," "cellar dwellars," etc., eventually you just begin to expect negative stuff and it just gets...well...depressing. It's like going on a vacation to the beach with someone who complains the whole way about the sunburn they're sure to get, how bad the food will taste, how dirty the water will be, that it'll probably rain, and on and on and on and on and on...

I know the Reds could finish in last place and, trust me, I won't be jumping for joy if they do. I just choose to live as though it hasn't already happened. Let's see what happens. There's a LOT of time for trades and other moves.

I know, I know...I can find another board if I'm tired of the direction. Everyone please forgive me for thinking that the Reds might actually avoid the declared statistical inevitability of a last-place finish.

Krusty
01-23-2009, 08:09 PM
Trust me, I'm all about getting things out in the open. But there comes a time when negativity feeds on negativity. People are not confident about the team...I get it. However, after a plethora of threads filled with terms like "pessimistic," "worst ownership," "lousy," "pathetic," "crappy," "bad move," "cellar dwellars," etc., eventually you just begin to expect negative stuff and it just gets...well...depressing. It's like going on a vacation to the beach with someone who complains the whole way about the sunburn they're sure to get, how bad the food will taste, how dirty the water will be, that it'll probably rain, and on and on and on and on and on...

I know the Reds could finish in last place and, trust me, I won't be jumping for joy if they do. I just choose to live as though it hasn't already happened. Let's see what happens. There's a LOT of time for trades and other moves.

I know, I know...I can find another board if I'm tired of the direction. Everyone please forgive me for thinking that the Reds might actually avoid the declared statistical inevitability of a last-place finish.

I'll make a long story short. Big Steeler fan here. When their schedule came out, I was predicting anywhere from 6-10 to 10-6. Well the exceeded expectations with a 12-4 regular season record and are in the Super Bowl.

Bottom line: That is why the games are played on the field

ochre
01-23-2009, 08:35 PM
I just realized (maybe this has been brought up before and I missed it, so let me know if so) Taveras had more Steals than Runs last year. I wonder how many times that has occurred (for stat qualifiers anyway).

wheels
01-23-2009, 08:53 PM
Trust me, I'm all about getting things out in the open. But there comes a time when negativity feeds on negativity. People are not confident about the team...I get it. However, after a plethora of threads filled with terms like "pessimistic," "worst ownership," "lousy," "pathetic," "crappy," "bad move," "cellar dwellars," etc., eventually you just begin to expect negative stuff and it just gets...well...depressing. It's like going on a vacation to the beach with someone who complains the whole way about the sunburn they're sure to get, how bad the food will taste, how dirty the water will be, that it'll probably rain, and on and on and on and on and on...

I know the Reds could finish in last place and, trust me, I won't be jumping for joy if they do. I just choose to live as though it hasn't already happened. Let's see what happens. There's a LOT of time for trades and other moves.

I know, I know...I can find another board if I'm tired of the direction. Everyone please forgive me for thinking that the Reds might actually avoid the declared statistical inevitability of a last-place finish.

I totally see your point.

It just might make things easier for you if you just avoided threads with overtly negative wording.

I'm not saying that to be a jerk or anything, either. I hope you don't think that.

wheels
01-23-2009, 08:56 PM
I'll make a long story short. Big Steeler fan here. When their schedule came out, I was predicting anywhere from 6-10 to 10-6. Well the exceeded expectations with a 12-4 regular season record and are in the Super Bowl.

Bottom line: That is why the games are played on the field

Football is a whole different animal, though. Don't you think?

When you only have sixteen plus weeks things can go wonderfully well or horrifically bad.

Smaller sample, more physical and emotional game. The Steelers always come together and bully teams around, regardless of actual talent level.

The Reds ain't gonna be bullyin' anyone around this year.

membengal
01-23-2009, 09:14 PM
I was all for us cutting ties with Weathers. I also understand the hatred for the Taveras signing. And burning money on Hairston...that I don't get. He signed for a pretty small amount and he was one of the best players on the team last season AND he's about as versitile as you can get in terms of where he can play. But let's put all that aside...who's this LF'er that you want?

Left Fielders
Moises Alou ... 42 years old (type B)
Garret Anderson...36 (B)
Emil Brown....34
Dunn....29 (A)
Luis Gonzalez....41 (B)
Jacque Jones....33
Jay Payton...36
Manny Ramirez...36 (A)

Center Fielders
Jim Edmonds....38

Right Fielders
Abreu...34 (A)
Griffey....39 (B)
Hinske....31
Wilkerson....31

Okay, you pick. And you've got to remember that you've probably only got about 8 million to spend at the most AND you've got to be willing to part with your draft picks if it's an A/B type. I sure as hell don't see anybody I want within those constraints. (I'm tempted by Edmonds though...if it's for the right length and amount)

So for me, that leaves the trade route. And I'd be shocked if they weren't still exploring that route.

Bobby Abreu
Pat Burrell
Adam Dunn

There's three. That wasn't hard. And that's right where the market is.

As for a trade, I have been begging them to be creative and target a Delmon Young or a Matt Kemp or the like. But at THIS point? I don't think Jock is alive, so I am not really thinking it is happening. If he were, he wouldn't be handing my favorite team a steaming pile of my dog's digested dinner in the form of what this off-season has been and tell me it's filet mignon. Or whatever they are claming this steaming pile is.

Krusty
01-23-2009, 09:14 PM
Football is a whole different animal, though. Don't you think?

When you only have sixteen plus weeks things can go wonderfully well or horrifically bad.

Smaller sample, more physical and emotional game. The Steelers always come together and bully teams around, regardless of actual talent level.

The Reds ain't gonna be bullyin' anyone around this year.

And who thought this time last year that the Tampa Rays would win the AL East? That is why you play the game.

membengal
01-23-2009, 09:20 PM
Here's the other thing that bugs me. WHEN did Cast decide that the budget had to be cut? Did he tell Jock early enough that Jock should have known he was hamstrung? If not, then this is all on Cast, and he rockets up the list of worst Reds owners ever. If he DID tell Jock? Then Jock has really screwed up this off-season. If your budget is limited, but with the room that this team had (roughly $8 million), and you have in-house options to step in, it is absolutely unacceptable, in a market like Cincy where you have to be creative and smart, to take that money and spend it on Weathers/Lincoln/Taveras/Hairston/Rhodes. That's a staggering waste of resources. And not one of those moves gets them remotely close to being a dangerous team. It's jaw-droppingly awful GM-ing. And the ONLY excuse is IF he was not told until too late that the budget was being slashed.

So, which was it? Cast hung him out to dry, or he committed baseball malpractice from the GM spot? Because it is one of those two.

membengal
01-23-2009, 09:23 PM
And who thought this time last year that the Tampa Rays would win the AL East? That is why you play the game.

Give me a break, Krusty. Of course that's why you play the game. No one here is saying they shouldn't go ahead and play the game. And we will certainly all hope that they pull a rabbit out of a hat.

But spare me the "surprise" over Pittsburgh, a team picked universally to win the AFC North, being a polestar for "surprise". And last year, baseball people knew that Tampa was an up and coming team. Their year exceeded expectations, but it's not like they were unknown. Far from it.

And there are exactly NO parallels between this edition of the Reds and last year's Tampa team.

RANDY IN INDY
01-23-2009, 09:25 PM
And who thought this time last year that the Tampa Rays would win the AL East? That is why you play the game.

Yep!

Tom Servo
01-23-2009, 09:28 PM
And who thought this time last year that the Tampa Rays would win the AL East? That is why you play the game.
My dad and I. At my behest he put money on them to win the AL East when we were out in Vegas.


We will not be betting on the Reds this year, something we both agree on.

Highlifeman21
01-23-2009, 09:55 PM
But let's put all that aside...who's this LF'er that you want?

Left Fielders
Moises Alou ... 42 years old (type B)
Garret Anderson...36 (B)
Emil Brown....34
Dunn....29 (A)
Luis Gonzalez....41 (B)
Jacque Jones....33
Jay Payton...36
Manny Ramirez...36 (A)

Center Fielders
Jim Edmonds....38

Right Fielders
Abreu...34 (A)
Griffey....39 (B)
Hinske....31
Wilkerson....31

Okay, you pick. And you've got to remember that you've probably only got about 8 million to spend at the most AND you've got to be willing to part with your draft picks if it's an A/B type.

Seeing as how the Reds have punted drafted picks in recent history, it's the same as parting with them...

That being said, if I can only spend 8 million, here's the list of guys that I'd go after from your list...


Dunn....29 (A) (since rumor has it he's only gonna get $5 Mil a year...)
Abreu...34 (A) (probably wouldn't have signed for $8 Mil, but worth a call)
Hinske....31
Wilkerson....31 (Hell, you could probably get Hinske & Wilkerson for $8 Mil a year combined...)

So yeah, there's LF options out there.

Redhook
01-23-2009, 11:03 PM
Give me a break, Krusty. Of course that's why you play the game. No one here is saying they shouldn't go ahead and play the game. And we will certainly all hope that they pull a rabbit out of a hat.

But spare me the "surprise" over Pittsburgh, a team picked universally to win the AFC North, being a polestar for "surprise". And last year, baseball people knew that Tampa was an up and coming team. Their year exceeded expectations, but it's not like they were unknown. Far from it.

And there are exactly NO parallels between this edition of the Reds and last year's Tampa team.

Your last 3 posts in this thread are nothing short of fantastic. Well done.

Krusty
01-23-2009, 11:28 PM
Give me a break, Krusty. Of course that's why you play the game. No one here is saying they shouldn't go ahead and play the game. And we will certainly all hope that they pull a rabbit out of a hat.

But spare me the "surprise" over Pittsburgh, a team picked universally to win the AFC North, being a polestar for "surprise". And last year, baseball people knew that Tampa was an up and coming team. Their year exceeded expectations, but it's not like they were unknown. Far from it.

And there are exactly NO parallels between this edition of the Reds and last year's Tampa team.

Be honest.....did you really think Tampa would win the AL East last season?

durl
01-23-2009, 11:30 PM
I totally see your point.

It just might make things easier for you if you just avoided threads with overtly negative wording.

I'm not saying that to be a jerk or anything, either. I hope you don't think that.

I don't think you're being a jerk at all. No worries.

SteelSD
01-23-2009, 11:30 PM
Be honest.....did you really think Tampa would win the AL East last season?

You do not want to face jojo at this point. He made very convincing arguments about how Tampa would be a good team in 2008.

Krusty
01-23-2009, 11:33 PM
You do not want to face jojo at this point. He made very convincing arguments about how Tampa would be a good team in 2008.

And as I mentioned before, I'm not going to get too upset where this team is in January 23. Now come April 5th, that might be a different story.

VR
01-23-2009, 11:45 PM
Pitching has the potential to be an actual MLB staff top to bottom for the 1st time this millenium. Defense will be much much improved, core of young, talented offensive players with great experience in 2008.

They've removed three of the major leagues' worst offensive players from their starting lineup in Bako, Patterson and Keppinger.

They won't win the series, but they'll be more competetive than they've been in a while.

AtomicDumpling
01-24-2009, 12:07 AM
I have never been more pessimistic.

In previous years I was optimistic that Castellini would open the purse strings when the time was right. Now that the time is right he is flushing his wallet down the commode.

The guy has already made tens of millions of dollars in profit from the Reds, plus the team's value as a franchise has grown substantially. Now he can't spend some of that windfall to field a competitive team? Even if he loses a few million in the short term? He is just Carl Lindner without the comb-over.

You know you live in a city with a loser's mentality when even the truest fans don't care when the mega-millionaire, obscenely rich owner is too cheap to try to win.

red-in-la
01-24-2009, 02:45 AM
Bobby Abreu
Pat Burrell
Adam Dunn

There's three. That wasn't hard. And that's right where the market is.

As for a trade, I have been begging them to be creative and target a Delmon Young or a Matt Kemp or the like. But at THIS point? I don't think Jock is alive, so I am not really thinking it is happening. If he were, he wouldn't be handing my favorite team a steaming pile of my dog's digested dinner in the form of what this off-season has been and tell me it's filet mignon. Or whatever they are claming this steaming pile is.

The move that I saw as interesting AND superior to anything they did was to sign Ty Wigginton and move either Ee or Votto to LF.

I also think Dickerson would have been just as goos a CF option as what they signed.

So I can see some money being poured down the drain at the same thime that they are now saying thye are broke. Also, resigning Weathers when Reonicke should have just been promoted seems like a HUGE waste.

I mean, you have Cordero and Burton as well as lots of other options. I just don't see Weathers being worth that much to this team, especially if they are broke.

Caveat Emperor
01-24-2009, 03:49 AM
And who thought this time last year that the Tampa Rays would win the AL East? That is why you play the game.

Somebody wins the lottery too -- that doesn't make playing it any smarter of a bet.

mth123
01-24-2009, 09:41 AM
Having better LF Defense is consistently at the bottom of my baseball wishes and worries.

Amen. Its about the least important thing I can think of. Especially when you compromise the offense for it and then make a defensive compromise in favor of more offense to compensate at a more important defensive spot like.. say.. SS.

That plan leaves both the offense and the defense worse overall. There is no way improved defense in LF makes up for weak defense at SS and there is no way a decent hitting SS (making a large concession that the Reds actually have that BTW) can make up for a typically offensive minded LF.

Its a horrible way to put a roster together. Add an extrememly poor player like Willy T in CF getting 600+ PA at the top of the line-up and this team will be looking up at 70 Wins IMO.

Big Klu
01-24-2009, 11:47 AM
I keep having flashbacks to a funny song they'd sing on Hee Haw, "Gloom, despair, and agony on me. Deep, dark, depression; excessive misery..."

"If it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all...."




Okay.

Let us all just lie about our feelings instead.

If you don't like negativity, don't click on a thread with the word "pessimistic" in the title.

Who likes negativity? Masochists?




Trust me, I'm all about getting things out in the open. But there comes a time when negativity feeds on negativity. People are not confident about the team...I get it. However, after a plethora of threads filled with terms like "pessimistic," "worst ownership," "lousy," "pathetic," "crappy," "bad move," "cellar dwellars," etc., eventually you just begin to expect negative stuff and it just gets...well...depressing. It's like going on a vacation to the beach with someone who complains the whole way about the sunburn they're sure to get, how bad the food will taste, how dirty the water will be, that it'll probably rain, and on and on and on and on and on...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8c/Racheldratchdebbie.jpg



I just realized (maybe this has been brought up before and I missed it, so let me know if so) Taveras had more Steals than Runs last year. I wonder how many times that has occurred (for stat qualifiers anyway).

I realize that you are just making an observation, but I don't think that it is fair to blame Taveras for that. Just as it wasn't Adam Dunn's fault that he didn't have more RBI's because the players ahead of him didn't get on base, it isn't Willie's fault that the players behind him didn't drive him in. (Though it is also theoretically possible that Taveras had two stolen bases--2nd, and 3rd--for every run he scored.)

VR
01-24-2009, 12:56 PM
I just realized (maybe this has been brought up before and I missed it, so let me know if so) Taveras had more Steals than Runs last year. I wonder how many times that has occurred (for stat qualifiers anyway).

Henderson, Brock, Coleman, Moreno, Raines et al.

MWM
01-24-2009, 03:02 PM
The positives? They're still playong baseball in Cincy, and no matter what I still love baseball. There will be things to enjoy no matter what. But 2009 team has the ability to be the worst team we've seen in the Queen City since the early 80s. If Harang bounces back, Arroyo has a solid entire season, Volquez has a year similar to last year, AND Cueto takes a nice leap forward in his development, then they could get close to .500. But I think they're staring at 92-95 losses. It's going to be ugly.

ochre
01-24-2009, 03:37 PM
I realize that you are just making an observation, but I don't think that it is fair to blame Taveras for that. Just as it wasn't Adam Dunn's fault that he didn't have more RBI's because the players ahead of him didn't get on base, it isn't Willie's fault that the players behind him didn't drive him in. (Though it is also theoretically possible that Taveras had two stolen bases--2nd, and 3rd--for every run he scored.)
Definitely just an observation. I know runs are extremely team dependent.

wheels
01-24-2009, 03:49 PM
Who likes negativity? Masochists?[/QUOTE]

:D Wiseacre.

HumnHilghtFreel
01-24-2009, 03:52 PM
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9282/34836353rx2.jpg

919191
01-25-2009, 03:36 AM
Sometimes I feel like I could be a fan of the team pictured directly to the left of these words.

MWM
01-25-2009, 06:01 PM
wrong thread

_Sir_Charles_
01-25-2009, 07:04 PM
Bobby Abreu
Pat Burrell
Adam Dunn

There's three. That wasn't hard. And that's right where the market is.

As for a trade, I have been begging them to be creative and target a Delmon Young or a Matt Kemp or the like. But at THIS point? I don't think Jock is alive, so I am not really thinking it is happening. If he were, he wouldn't be handing my favorite team a steaming pile of my dog's digested dinner in the form of what this off-season has been and tell me it's filet mignon. Or whatever they are claming this steaming pile is.

None of those 3 would've signed for what we had to offer. So yeah, it's a bit harder than you want to make it out to be. As for a trade, I still think one will end up happening before the ASB.

Burrell signed for 2 years and 16 million. While I think we may have been able to get 8 million free, I don't think he would've signed with the Reds for that amount. Remember, he went to the Rays...a VERY solid playoff team. Abreu will probably want more than Burrell, and Dunn...regardless of what he wants, the FO has made it pretty clear that they're ready to turn the page with Adam (regardless of man-love he gets around here).

And even if we could've put together the needed coin for a Burrell-type, we wouldn't have had the money left over to fill some of our other needs. I'm not saying that there weren't other ways to go, there were, but lots of people on here seem to think that GM'ing is a piece of cake and that any moron should be able to pull off winning trades every time. The other GM's aren't idiots either. And for that matter, neither are the FA's agents. Why should they take the bait from the fish in the small pool when if they wait it out they'll get a bite from a big sucker like the Yanks or Sox.

Degenerate39
01-25-2009, 07:13 PM
Yesterday

;)

*BaseClogger*
01-25-2009, 07:36 PM
My personal view is that I am not so much more pessimistic about the team in 2009 as I am in the front office...

kpresidente
01-26-2009, 07:05 AM
My personal view is that I am not so much more pessimistic about the team in 2009 as I am in the front office...

Well, I'm pessimistic about both. We don't have a competitive roster, IMO. That doesn't bother me that much. I always knew if the market didn't play out just right, we wouldn't be able to get what we needed. But worse than that, I've lost a lot of faith in Jocketty. It's mostly about Willie T, to be honest. Sorry to beat a dead (or dying horse), but I can't find any reason why somebody would bring this guy in, unless they've just got bad ideas about baseball. The other moves make me a little suspect, as well. Mostly wondering why all this stop-gaps got two year deals. Is that Jocketty's vision? He thinks we're two years away? I don't think it's that bad. Anyway, if it's two years, why not match the two year deal Affeldt got? It just doesn't all make much sense to me. The whole thing seems a little aimless.

durl
01-26-2009, 10:11 AM
If people lose faith in Jocketty after less than 12 months on the job--a guy who built a World Series Champion and one of the most competitive franchises in the NL--then I don't believe people will ever keep faith in a GM.

People wanted Jocketty; they begged for him to be the GM. He's got experience, they said. He knows how to get it done, they said. Well, Walt, you haven't signed Manny Ramirez for under $10 million a year so you're old news. Thanks for playing.

nate
01-26-2009, 10:12 AM
If people lose faith in Jocketty after less than 12 months on the job--a guy who built a World Series Champion and one of the most competitive franchises in the NL--then I don't believe people will ever keep faith in a GM.

People wanted Jocketty; they begged for him to be the GM. He's got experience, they said. He knows how to get it done, they said. Well, Walt, you haven't signed Manny Ramirez for under $10 million a year so you're old news. Thanks for playing.

That's really not the argument being made.

Ltlabner
01-26-2009, 10:25 AM
If people lose faith in Jocketty after less than 12 months on the job--a guy who built a World Series Champion and one of the most competitive franchises in the NL--then I don't believe people will ever keep faith in a GM.

I don't think Walt suddenly forgot how to build a winning baseball team.

I think he's not surrounded with top flight people ala LaRussa and Duncan like he was in St. Louis. Instead he's surrounded by the organizational rot of 10 years of suck, Bill Bavasi and The Dusty Baker. Top it off with an owner who's apparently a bit of a loon.

Mix in a wacky baseball economy and you get an untenable situation for The Walt.

Always Red
01-26-2009, 10:35 AM
I don't think Walt suddenly forgot who to build a winning baseball team.

I think he's not surrounded with top flight people ala LaRussa and Duncan like he was in St. Louis. Instead he's surrounded by the organizational rot of 10 years of suck, Bill Bavasi and The Dusty Baker. Top it off with an owner who's apparently a bit of a loon.

Mix in a wacky baseball economy and you get an untenable situation for The Walt.

I think Walt's game plan got switched on him, in midstream.

Ltlabner
01-26-2009, 10:55 AM
I think Walt's game plan got switched on him, in midstream.

Very, very likely.

BCast blinks and suddenly "win now" becomes "hold up".

Chip R
01-26-2009, 10:57 AM
I think Walt's game plan got switched on him, in midstream.


Wayne had that happen to him too.

durl
01-26-2009, 11:21 AM
I don't think Walt suddenly forgot who to build a winning baseball team.

I think he's not surrounded with top flight people ala LaRussa and Duncan like he was in St. Louis. Instead he's surrounded by the organizational rot of 10 years of suck, Bill Bavasi and The Dusty Baker. Top it off with an owner who's apparently a bit of a loon.

Mix in a wacky baseball economy and you get an untenable situation for The Walt.

I believe only a portion of people believe Jocketty has forgotten how to build a winner. I believe the OTHER portion have forgotten how long Jocketty has been the Reds' GM.

He's also not in St. Louis. This franchise is going to have to make baby steps to overcome years of problems.

WVRedsFan
01-26-2009, 11:31 AM
Well, I'm pessimistic about both. We don't have a competitive roster, IMO. That doesn't bother me that much. I always knew if the market didn't play out just right, we wouldn't be able to get what we needed. But worse than that, I've lost a lot of faith in Jocketty. It's mostly about Willie T, to be honest. Sorry to beat a dead (or dying horse), but I can't find any reason why somebody would bring this guy in, unless they've just got bad ideas about baseball. The other moves make me a little suspect, as well. Mostly wondering why all this stop-gaps got two year deals. Is that Jocketty's vision? He thinks we're two years away? I don't think it's that bad. Anyway, if it's two years, why not match the two year deal Affeldt got? It just doesn't all make much sense to me. The whole thing seems a little aimless.Not me.

Even though it's not what I want (by a long shot), I think the overall roster is in better shape than this team has had the last two years. First base is much better, second is in good shape, if Gonzalez is back that's at least adequate, third base, well...but it's the same, RF is going to be good in time, The outfield is a mess, but I still feel acquisitions are in the works, catcher is worlds better and the pitching staff is very good. The bench is better and the bullpen looks solid. Still not playoff material, but better even with Dunn and Griffey gone. Not by much, especially on the offensive side, but the dysfunctional part of the team has gone away with Freel, Patterson, Belisle, and Fogg gone. Call me your typical spring optimist.

I think, given time, Walt will build a winner.

WVRedsFan
01-26-2009, 11:32 AM
I think Walt's game plan got switched on him, in midstream.

+1. No doubt.

ochre
01-26-2009, 12:33 PM
Wayne had that happen to him too.
as much as I disliked him as GM, so did O'Brien...

Chip R
01-26-2009, 01:01 PM
as much as I disliked him as GM, so did O'Brien...


Well, he got owners switched on him and a new broom sweeps clean. Personally, I think Bob listened to him talk for about 5 minutes and wanted to put a gun to his head. I know that's what I wanted to do whenever I listened to DanO.

Roy Tucker
01-26-2009, 01:19 PM
I think Walt's game plan got switched on him, in midstream.


Switch happens.

ochre
01-26-2009, 02:24 PM
Well, he got owners switched on him and a new broom sweeps clean. Personally, I think Bob listened to him talk for about 5 minutes and wanted to put a gun to his head. I know that's what I wanted to do whenever I listened to DanO.
I always read Milton as a demand put on him, whether directly, or indirectly as a "win now" desperation move.

Mario-Rijo
01-26-2009, 03:16 PM
If people lose faith in Jocketty after less than 12 months on the job--a guy who built a World Series Champion and one of the most competitive franchises in the NL--then I don't believe people will ever keep faith in a GM.

People wanted Jocketty; they begged for him to be the GM. He's got experience, they said. He knows how to get it done, they said. Well, Walt, you haven't signed Manny Ramirez for under $10 million a year so you're old news. Thanks for playing.

I know I for one hoped he knew what he was doing but he was never my choice. Wayne is, was and will always be the guy I think should have never been canned.

Walt too me is a guy who fills part of the GM's job quite well. He's an outstanding communicator (for what it is he/ownership want to convey) and he gets things done that they actually set out to do. But make no mistake he may have scouts who can tell him who is a good target and who isn't but he isn't much of a talent evaluator IMO. Sure he can go get obvious talents, but he's not much for mining the not so obvious.

Always Red
01-26-2009, 03:44 PM
Walt too me is a guy who fills part of the GM's job quite well. He's an outstanding communicator (for what it is he/ownership want to convey) and he gets things done that they actually set out to do. But make no mistake he may have scouts who can tell him who is a good target and who isn't but he isn't much of a talent evaluator IMO. Sure he can go get obvious talents, but he's not much for mining the not so obvious.

That was a definite strength of WK's, finding the diamond in the rough. Hopefully Walt has someone on staff who excels at that, much like Kriv did for the Twins in the past.

Wheelhouse
01-26-2009, 09:41 PM
Going into the 1999 season.

Cicero
01-26-2009, 11:38 PM
I am as excited this season as I have been for every season. I love baseball and I love Reds baseball. We do have what looks to be a very good young rotation. I would like to see more pop in the lineup but would much rather see this group play little ball than wait for the three run homerun ala the AL.

Emin3mShady07
01-27-2009, 12:11 AM
I am as excited this season as I have been for every season. I love baseball and I love Reds baseball. We do have what looks to be a very good young rotation. I would like to see more pop in the lineup but would much rather see this group play little ball than wait for the three run homerun ala the AL.

The problem in my opinion for the reds, is that their defense is not good enough to play "little ball" successfully enough to win anything. The reds are in-between small ball and big ball. They have a couple of sluggers in Votto and Bruce that could potentially be very good, Votto already was, and a third guy in EE that also has big time potential at the plate. However, there is a significant drop off after that. If the reds wanted to play true big ball, AL style, I would say sign Bobby Abreu and trade for Nick Swisher and put bruce in CF, Swisher in RF and Abreu in LF. That lineup is leaps and bounds better than anything the reds could run out there right now, but the likelyhood that it actually happens is minimal, plus the infield defense and outfield defense would be quite bad on the left side which could prove to be disasterous.

OTOH, the reds defense has too many significant holes in it right now to play little ball. The successful small ball teams usually have terrific infield defense, especially at SS, and I think the reds because of the two holes they have on the left side of the infield cannot maintain a strong enough level of play to prove to be anything but average. Maybe gonzalez comes back healthy, but he is not any younger and realistically speaking, no one knows how the injury is going to effect his range. Also, small ball teams usually have terrific CFers, not above average, but terrific. The 2008 Twins had Carlos Gomez, the 2005 White Sox had Aaron Rowand while he was still young, etc. Willy taveras is just slightly above average and his arm is nothing to write home about (the same can be said about Rowand, but still his arm was better than Taveras's). If the reds want to play little ball, I suggest either 1. trading for - I kid you not - willie harris to play LF and platoon Dickerson and Taveras in CF. All the while trying to convince some team to take gonzalez and sign a guy like orlando cabrera on the cheap. EE is still a problem at 3rd, but hopefully his offense will add more value this season, and even little ball teams need to score runs once in a while. Or 2. Moving EE to LF and again try to sign OCab for cheap and overwhelming Seattle for Adrian Beltre.

Again, these are mostly just fantasy moves by me as a GM, but my larger point is that the reds do not have a good enough offense to play big ball, or a good enough defense to play little ball. I apologize if I am beating a dead horse.

Razor Shines
01-27-2009, 02:01 AM
I've done a lot of thinking about this one. It's hard for me to say, because before I came to this board and decided I was going to open up to more of the statistical side of baseball I would have definitely been optimistic about this up coming season. But this is probably the most pessimistic I've ever been.

It kinda makes me sad a little too. Now being able to look at baseball players differently and realize that a guy like Willy Taveras is not good, instead of looking at that .283 career batting average and thinking "finally a decent lead off hitter", it kinda rips the optimism out of your soul.

11larkin11
01-27-2009, 02:12 AM
Im tired of the defense argument. Phillips is GG. AGon, Dickerson, Taveras, and Votto are all above average. Bruce and Hernandez are average to above average. EE has horrible throws but good fielding and great range. Where is this horrible defense?

Phillips=Phillips
Votto=Votto
EE=EE
Hernanez/Hanigan>Ross/Bako/Valentin
Bruce 09>Bruce 08/Griffey
Gonzalez>>>>>>>>>>Hairston/Keppinger
Dickerson>>>>>>>>>Dunn/Hairston
Taveras>Hairston, < Patterson

Redhook
01-27-2009, 09:32 AM
Im tired of the defense argument. Phillips is GG. AGon, Dickerson, Taveras, and Votto are all above average. Bruce and Hernandez are average to above average. EE has horrible throws but good fielding and great range. Where is this horrible defense?

Phillips=Phillips
Votto=Votto
EE=EE
Hernanez/Hanigan>Ross/Bako/Valentin
Bruce 09>Bruce 08/Griffey
Gonzalez>>>>>>>>>>Hairston/Keppinger
Dickerson>>>>>>>>>Dunn/Hairston
Taveras>Hairston, < Patterson

Well, EE is horrific at 3rd base, regardless of his range. And I'm not putting any stock into Gonzo at this point. I could be wrong, but I believe he'll struggle to return to form and be less than an average SS.

So, the left side of the infield is still brutal, one of the worst in the majors. That's a big problem.

All in all, the defense will be better than last year without the two slugs in the outfield, but it is still far from being considered a real asset.

remdog
01-27-2009, 10:24 AM
Im tired of the defense argument. Phillips is GG. AGon, Dickerson, Taveras, and Votto are all above average. Bruce and Hernandez are average to above average. EE has horrible throws but good fielding and great range. Where is this horrible defense?

Phillips=Phillips
Votto=Votto
EE=EE
Hernanez/Hanigan>Ross/Bako/Valentin
Bruce 09>Bruce 08/Griffey
Gonzalez>>>>>>>>>>Hairston/Keppinger
Dickerson>>>>>>>>>Dunn/Hairston
Taveras>Hairston, < Patterson

Gotta agree with Redhook here. I'm a fan of EE but 'range' for a third baseman is not at the top of the fielding list. Gonzo was not even an average fielding SS two years ago and projects to be worse in '09. It's still up in the air that he will even play.

Phillips won the GG for '08 but he actually had a better season in '07 so you could view that as regression.

Yes, Dickerson is better than Dunn or Jr. in the OF at this time but there is a good chance that JHJ will be getting a lot of the playing time out in LF so that doesn't bode well for a defensive lineup.

Tavaras? What can I say? His 'D' is a downgrade from Patterson so that's not really a good thing.

Bruce was brutal in RF last year although I do think he will progress and become an above average fielder, maybe even as soon as this year.

I like Votto's range and hands and I think he wil be good at first but he's still learning the position. He could become a plus defender, in time.

It would be hard for catcher not to be an upgrade after last year's trio but I haven't seen Hernandez in awhile and he's getting up there in years so I'll withhold judgement for now. I liked what I saw of Hannigan behind the plate.

Rem