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icehole3
01-23-2009, 07:53 AM
http://www.danablankenhorn.com/images/mel_kiper.jpg

He's got the Bengals selecting Jason Smith OT Baylor


Mel's 2009 Big Board (Jan. 21)
Player Yr. Pos. School Chg.
1. Michael Crabtree So. WR Texas Tech
2. Aaron Curry Sr. LB Wake Forest
3. Andre Smith Jr. OT Alabama
4. Matthew Stafford Jr. QB Georgia
5. Mark Sanchez Jr. QB USC
6. Jason Smith Sr. OT Baylor
7. Malcolm Jenkins Sr. CB Ohio State
8. Eugene Monroe Sr. OT Virginia
9. Jeremy Maclin So. WR Missouri
10. B.J. Raji Sr. DT Boston College
11. Brian Orakpo Sr. DE Texas
12. Aaron Maybin So. DE Penn St.
13. Chris "Beanie" Wells Sr. RB Ohio St.
14. Brandon Pettigrew Sr. TE Oklahoma St.
15. Knowshown Moreno So. RB Georgia
16. Percy Harvin Jr. WR Florida
17. Vontae Davis Jr. CB Illinois
18. Everette Brown Jr. DE Florida St.
19. Rey Maualuga Sr. LB USC
20. Tyson Jackson Sr. DE LSU
21. D.J. Moore Jr. CB Vanderbilt
22. Brian Cushing Sr. LB USC
23. Peria Jerry Sr. DT Mississippi
24. Larry English Sr. LB No. Illinois
25. Michael Oher Sr. OT Mississippi


and Mel's top 16 mock

Mel Kiper's first round 1-16
Pick Team Player Position College
1 Detroit Matthew Stafford QB Georgia
2 St. Louis Andre Smith OT Alabama
3 Kansas City Mark Sanchez QB USC
4 Seattle Michael Crabtree WR Texas Tech
5 Cleveland Aaron Curry LB Wake Forest
6 Cincinnati Jason Smith OT Baylor
7 Oakland Jeremy Maclin WR Missouri
8 Jacksonville Eugene Monroe OT Virginia
9 Green Bay Malcolm Jenkins CB Ohio St.
10 San Francisco Aaron Maybin DE/OLB Penn St.
11 Buffalo Brandon Pettigrew TE Oklahoma St.
12 Denver B.J. Raji DT Boston College
13 Washington Brian Orakpo DE Texas
14 New Orleans Vontae Davis CB Illinois
15 Houston Everette Brown DE Florida St.
16 San Diego Knowshon Moreno RB Georgia

http://www.sternfannetwork.com/forum/images/smilies/Happy/HappyWave.gif

LoganBuck
01-23-2009, 08:43 AM
Smith? He is the least experienced of the tackles, and has issues with pass blocking and run blocking. He is the Drew Stubbs of tackles, He has the base talent but the production doesn't match his tools yet. I don't like that mock at all.

One thing I do like for the Bengals is that James Laurinaitis is slipping on these draft boards. So many Jrs and Draft eligible sophomores came out that he may be available when the Bengals pick in the second round.

My new wish list.
1. Tackle
2. Laurinaitis
3. Center

Redhook
01-23-2009, 09:47 AM
This is a very talented draft. And the Bengals are in good position to get 2 first-round type players.

I would like to see them take a tackle as well in the first round. I'm hoping they can get a really good Center in the 2nd or 3rd round. A Defensive Lineman or Linebacker would be ideal with the other pick around the Center.

So, with that being said, I expect the Bengals to draft Beanie in round 1, a cornerback in round 2, and a WR in the 3rd. :D

icehole3
01-23-2009, 01:14 PM
This is a very talented draft. And the Bengals are in good position to get 2 first-round type players.

I would like to see them take a tackle as well in the first round. I'm hoping they can get a really good Center in the 2nd or 3rd round. A Defensive Lineman or Linebacker would be ideal with the other pick around the Center.

So, with that being said, I expect the Bengals to draft Beanie in round 1, a cornerback in round 2, and a WR in the 3rd. :D

I agree 100%
:D

WMR
01-23-2009, 02:18 PM
This is such a talented draft it's scary. I'm really curious about how the Bungles will screw it up. :)

WVRed
01-23-2009, 02:35 PM
This is such a talented draft it's scary. I'm really curious about how the Bungles will screw it up. :)

If Kiper's pick holds true, that may be the answer.

Kiper puts way more stock into his rankings than other NFL teams. If a team bypasses one of his top rated players, that player is the focus of attention until they are finally picked. Aaron Rodgers and Brady Quinn off the top of my head, and I am sure there are others.

That being said, I think Orapko goes higher than 13th. Jermaine Gresham should go higher than Brandon Pettigrew as well.

redsfanmia
01-23-2009, 06:16 PM
If Kiper's pick holds true, that may be the answer.

Kiper puts way more stock into his rankings than other NFL teams. If a team bypasses one of his top rated players, that player is the focus of attention until they are finally picked. Aaron Rodgers and Brady Quinn off the top of my head, and I am sure there are others.

That being said, I think Orapko goes higher than 13th. Jermaine Gresham should go higher than Brandon Pettigrew as well.

I know I say it every year but if Kiper was really as good as he thinks he is he would be a player personnel guy for an NFL franchise.

KoryMac5
01-23-2009, 06:43 PM
I know I say it every year but if Kiper was really as good as he thinks he is he would be a player personnel guy for an NFL franchise.

He makes more $$$$ doing what he is doing now.

Mario-Rijo
01-23-2009, 06:46 PM
If Kiper's pick holds true, that may be the answer.

Kiper puts way more stock into his rankings than other NFL teams. If a team bypasses one of his top rated players, that player is the focus of attention until they are finally picked. Aaron Rodgers and Brady Quinn off the top of my head, and I am sure there are others.

That being said, I think Orapko goes higher than 13th. Jermaine Gresham should go higher than Brandon Pettigrew as well.

I was under the impression Gresham stayed in school, must have missed that one.

WVRed
01-23-2009, 06:53 PM
Could be the reason why. I hate wikipedia sometimes.:angry:

*BaseClogger*
01-23-2009, 06:58 PM
FJM's Least Fun Annual Tradition

Mel Kiper, Jr. is Planet Earth's most famous NFL draft analyst. This is what he's done the past two years. We know because we wrote these posts.

---

Monday, May 01, 2006 (http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2006/05/why-dont-you-just-say-every-team-did.html):

Mel Kiper Jr's draft grades (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft06/insider/columns/story?columnist=kiper_jr_mel&id=2428772&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnfl %2fdraft06%2finsider%2fcolumns%2fstory%3fcolumnist %3dkiper_jr_mel%26id%3d2428772) are in, for every team in the NFL.

For those who don't have ESPN Insider, every single grade is between a C and a B+. It's the old "on a scale of 4 to 7" spectrum. Thanks Mel! See you in 363!

---


Tuesday, May 01, 2007 (http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2007/05/omg-he-did-it-again.html):

OMG He Did It Again!

NFL Draft time. That's right, you heard me. NFL Draft.

Remember May 1 of last year, when dak pointed out that Mel Kiper Jr. gave every team a grade between a C and a B+?

Mel did it again (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft07/insider/columns/story?columnist=kiper_jr_mel&id=2847594&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnfl %2fdraft07%2finsider%2fcolumns%2fstory%3fcolumnist %3dkiper_jr_mel%26id%3d2847594). This year, no one was worse than a C- and no one was better than a B+. The article should be titled "On a scale of B to C, how gutless is Mel Kiper, Jr.?"

---

So here we are. 2008. Mel Kiper Jr. sits down at his Apple Lisa (he's old-school) to write his annual Draft Day grades column -- the single most-read piece of writing he'll do all year. He digs deep in his soul to assign the most perfect letter-grade assessment of each team's performance on this, the day he was born to live, experience, and grade. Draft Day is Christmas, the Super Bowl, and 9/11 all rolled into one for Mel Kiper, Jr. Mel Kiper, Sr. put him on his knee when Mel Jr. was a boy and told him, "Son, there is a sport called football where grown men play a pushing game involving an oblong fun-ball. You will not be one of those men. There will also be men who select the best among these other men, the best 'football players.' You will not be one of those men. You will be the man who judges the men selecting the other men. You will write one article a year that anyone will read, wherein you assign a letter grade evaluating the performance of the men selecting the other men. You were destined for the role of giving these grades. Your mind will be honed like an ancient Indian arrowhead to pierce, with laser-like intensity, the precise letter grade zone that each selecting man deserves."

And Mel Kiper Jr. nodded, for he knew what his father said was true.

And then on April 28, 2008 (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft08/insider/columns/story?columnist=kiper_jr_mel&id=3357479&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnfl %2fdraft08%2finsider%2fcolumns%2fstory%3fcolumnist %3dkiper_jr_mel%26id%3d3357479), he would give 31 out of 32 teams between a B+ and a C-. Because everyone pretty much did an "eh" job. Like every year. Except the Chiefs. They get an A -- Mel's first A in the three years we've been tracking this!

If Mel Kiper, Jr. were a college professor, at the beginning of the year he would hand out a piece of paper explaining his grading system:

0-50%: C
50-100%: B
2008 Kansas City Chiefs: A

See you next year, Mel!

http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2008/04/fjms-least-fun-annual-tradition.html

Highlifeman21
01-23-2009, 07:02 PM
Dear Bengals

If Malcolm Jenkins is available please take him.

Sincerely,

Highlifeman21

*BaseClogger*
01-23-2009, 07:04 PM
Dear Bengals

If Malcolm Jenkins is available please take him.

Sincerely,

Highlifeman21

I think Jenkins is going to be a great NFL player, but do the Bengals really need to draft another cornerback?

camisadelgolf
01-23-2009, 07:49 PM
I think Jenkins is going to be a great NFL player, but do the Bengals really need to draft another cornerback?

That's exactly what I was thinking. But what if the Bengals drafted Jenkins and traded Joseph or Hall for a late first round/early second round pick? That could mean the Bengals would be upgrading their CB while drafting a quality lineman later in the draft (Oher). It's just a thought.

Redhook
01-23-2009, 08:33 PM
I think Orapko goes higher than 13th.

The Bengals are predicted to take Orapko in one mock I saw. It might have been Sports Illustrated.

redsfanmia
01-23-2009, 08:51 PM
He makes more $$$$ doing what he is doing now.

But how about the ego?

GIK
01-23-2009, 08:58 PM
The Lions can't be foolish enough to take a QB, an underclassman QB to boot, when there are so many pressing needs (i.e. both lines).

Oh, wait...it's the Lions.

(Please MM, please please choose wisely)

redsfanmia
01-23-2009, 09:05 PM
The Lions can't be foolish enough to take a QB, an underclassman QB to boot, when there are so many pressing needs (i.e. both lines).

Oh, wait...it's the Lions.

(Please MM, please please choose wisely)

Its the Lions, they are going to draft Crabtree #1 right?

*BaseClogger*
01-23-2009, 09:50 PM
(Please MM, please please choose wisely)

He's gone...

WVRed
01-24-2009, 01:44 AM
He's gone...

Martin Mayhew isn't.

*BaseClogger*
01-24-2009, 05:22 PM
Martin Mayhew isn't.

Oops. I thought he meant Matt Millen! :)

Caveat Emperor
01-25-2009, 04:07 AM
I think Jenkins is going to be a great NFL player, but do the Bengals really need to draft another cornerback?

Nope.

What they need is a pass rush -- something they've been lacking for close to 20 years. Their D-line is hideous, and the results show in both the run and pass defense.

Redhook
01-25-2009, 10:37 AM
What they need is a pass rush -- something they've been lacking for close to 20 years. Their D-line is hideous, and the results show in both the run and pass defense.

They definitely need more of a pass rush, but their #1 priority is to protect Carson Palmer. Drafting a tackle in the first round is a must. Then they should get a D-Lineman in the 2nd or 3rd, preferably the 2nd with a Center in the 3rd.

Highlifeman21
01-25-2009, 09:08 PM
I think Jenkins is going to be a great NFL player, but do the Bengals really need to draft another cornerback?

It would be nice to have 1 shutdown CB, since they currently have none.

Jospeh is solid, but not a shutdown, and I think Hall could excel as a nickelback when he's not required to have to be on that island covering 1s or 2s. Instead, he can jam the slot guy and use his speed on nickel DB blitzes.

... but as golf shirt said, we could trade one of Hall or Joseph to address other needs if we drafted Jenkins. But if it were up to me, I'd draft Jenkins and keep both Hall and Joseph.

Caveat Emperor
01-25-2009, 09:32 PM
It would be nice to have 1 shutdown CB, since they currently have none.


There are very few true "shutdown" CBs in the NFL anymore. Part of that is due to the proliferation of the "Tampa 2" defensive scheme -- which reduces the need for a CB to be able to cover a receiver 1 on 1 in space. Part of the reason is that WRs like Randy Moss and Larry Fitzgerald have become so big and strong while retaining their speed that it's difficult to find DBs who can cover them alone. It also doesn't help that the current state of NFL officiating is designed to handcuff the defensive secondary and encourage explosive plays in the passing game.

The better strategy, IMO, is to get good (not great) CBs and then concentrate on improving the front 7 so that pressure gets to the QB before downfield routes have time to develop and that any throws that are made are made under pressure.

The reality of the modern NFL is that any competent QB will beat a defensive secondary and find an open man if he has enough time to make his progressions. Disrupt the timing with pressure and only the best of the best will be able to consistently make plays.

Boss-Hog
01-25-2009, 09:52 PM
There are very few true "shutdown" CBs in the NFL anymore. Part of that is due to the proliferation of the "Tampa 2" defensive scheme -- which reduces the need for a CB to be able to cover a receiver 1 on 1 in space. Part of the reason is that WRs like Randy Moss and Larry Fitzgerald have become so big and strong while retaining their speed that it's difficult to find DBs who can cover them alone. It also doesn't help that the current state of NFL officiating is designed to handcuff the defensive secondary and encourage explosive plays in the passing game.

The better strategy, IMO, is to get good (not great) CBs and then concentrate on improving the front 7 so that pressure gets to the QB before downfield routes have time to develop and that any throws that are made are made under pressure.

The reality of the modern NFL is that any competent QB will beat a defensive secondary and find an open man if he has enough time to make his progressions. Disrupt the timing with pressure and only the best of the best will be able to consistently make plays.
Completely agreed...

Sea Ray
01-25-2009, 10:31 PM
I don't know about money but if Kiper really worked for an NFL team he'd have to be accountable for what he says. Who needs that? Someone ought to go back and grade out his ratings several years later. That'd be an interesting article to read.

WVRed
01-25-2009, 11:02 PM
I don't know about money but if Kiper really worked for an NFL team he'd have to be accountable for what he says. Who needs that? Someone ought to go back and grade out his ratings several years later. That'd be an interesting article to read.

especially on Jeff George. That was one I knew he was way wrong on.

Emin3mShady07
01-25-2009, 11:42 PM
The Bears need a WR and Kiper has them drafting a DE. Great. Since we already have 3 talented pash rushers off the edge let's add another. Typical Jerry Angelo move.

Mario-Rijo
01-26-2009, 01:22 AM
Completely agreed...

Ditto! And the Bengals have 2 decent pass rushing DE's unfortunately neither stayed healthy and there wasn't much behind them. I think in my gut I believe if this front 4 could stay relatively healthy we'd get enough of a rush, Odom, Peko, Sims, Geathers. But if one or more goes down we don't have the depth there to step up without losing pressure. That's why a guy like Aaron Maybin could very well be the pick. I can certainly see the logic in taking an OT but how is a rookie LT gonna provide any better protection than what we already have, assuming of course Levi can get back and healthy. I seriously doubt they are gonna cut Levi and take a 5 million dollar hit on the cap, because they will have to seeing as how there is no cap next season.

Here's how I see it working out.

Re-Sign TJ - Not sure of the paremeters but I can't see them letting him walk, he's Carson's got to guy and security blanket.

Re-Sign Ghiacuic - I know he has his problems I for one think he stinks at run blocking, but you know how they work and at least he can pass block pretty well. They are not gonna wait around to see if Jason Brown of Baltimore is a FA and beyond him it's all older or lesser players in FA. And they are not likely to let a Rookie start there. If nothing else, if they get TJ signed early enough they can franchise Ghiacuic for a year and draft a replacement in the 2nd or 3rd round.

Draft Aaron Maybin or Rey Muauluga maybe even Brian Orakpo to add to the pass rush.

the O-line will look something like this:

LT - Levi/Collins
LG - Livings/Kooistra/Barton
C - Ghiacuic
RG - Williams
RT - Whitworth

Or this:

LT - Levi
LG - Whitworth
C - Ghiacuic
RG - Williams
RT - Collins

On 3rd and long the defense will look like this:

DE - Maybin
DT - Sims
DT - Geathers
DE - Odom

The only real question for me is will they re-sign Benson or go with another RB like a Derrick Ward or someone through the draft or both. I have a feeling Benson will want too much and with TJ and Ghiacuic back at pretty high salaries that spot is the most easily filled cheaper. I believe we should and will draft at minimum 2 OL but I don't see it in the 1st, just my gut.

AmarilloRed
01-26-2009, 01:30 AM
The Bears need a WR and Kiper has them drafting a DE. Great. Since we already have 3 talented pass rushers off the edge let's add another. Typical Jerry Angelo move.

Kiper has the top 3 WRs coming off the board by the time the Bears pick at #18. As Bears fans, we should hope that Florida's Percy Harvin doesn't go to the Jets at #17 as predicted by Mel.

Highlifeman21
01-26-2009, 07:53 AM
There are very few true "shutdown" CBs in the NFL anymore. Part of that is due to the proliferation of the "Tampa 2" defensive scheme -- which reduces the need for a CB to be able to cover a receiver 1 on 1 in space. Part of the reason is that WRs like Randy Moss and Larry Fitzgerald have become so big and strong while retaining their speed that it's difficult to find DBs who can cover them alone. It also doesn't help that the current state of NFL officiating is designed to handcuff the defensive secondary and encourage explosive plays in the passing game.

The better strategy, IMO, is to get good (not great) CBs and then concentrate on improving the front 7 so that pressure gets to the QB before downfield routes have time to develop and that any throws that are made are made under pressure.

The reality of the modern NFL is that any competent QB will beat a defensive secondary and find an open man if he has enough time to make his progressions. Disrupt the timing with pressure and only the best of the best will be able to consistently make plays.

Well said CE

Redhook
01-26-2009, 09:39 AM
Re-Sign Ghiacuic - I know he has his problems I for one think he stinks at run blocking, but you know how they work and at least he can pass block pretty well. If nothing else, if they get TJ signed early enough they can franchise Ghiacuic for a year and draft a replacement in the 2nd or 3rd round.



Wow. Franchise Ghiacuic? One of the worst Centers in the NFL, and maybe the worst, and you want to pay him Top 5 money? Wow.

I agree with most of what you wrote, but Ghiacuic is really bad. Like you said, he stinks at blocking for the run, and I believe he's just as bad pass-blocking. It got so comical last year that I would spend time during a game counting how many times Ghiacuic got trampled by a D-Lineman.

Ghiacuic, at best, should be a backup. He is the main reason why the offensive is so poor. They must get a bigger better center this offseason to have any chance of having a successful offense next year.

OesterPoster
01-26-2009, 10:15 AM
Wow. Franchise Ghiacuic? One of the worst Centers in the NFL, and maybe the worst, and you want to pay him Top 5 money? Wow.

I agree with most of what you wrote, but Ghiacuic is really bad. Like you said, he stinks at blocking for the run, and I believe he's just as bad pass-blocking. It got so comical last year that I would spend time during a game counting how many times Ghiacuic got trampled by a D-Lineman.

Ghiacuic, at best, should be a backup. He is the main reason why the offensive is so poor. They must get a bigger better center this offseason to have any chance of having a successful offense next year.

Exactly. I can't conceive how any fan can think Ghiacuic is even average at center, if they've been watching games. He's horrible, and it's arguably the most important position on the offensive line. I lost track of how many times he got shoved back into the middle of the "pocket", or whatever it was. He seriously looked like he was wearing roller skates multiple times throughout the year.

Boss-Hog
01-26-2009, 10:25 AM
I can't get behind any idea that has them bringing back essentially the same poor offensive line they fielded last year - particularly the "center piece" of it.

I'm also not convinced Antwan Odom is a difference maker at DE, despite being paid as one. Like most, I was concerned that he benefited in 2007 playing on the same DL as two Pro Bowlers and last year did nothing to ease those concerns.

If I'm the Bengals, one of my top priorities needs to figure out why Robert Geathers's play has dropped off the past two years. Here's a guy who had 10.5 sacks in 2006, was rewarded with a lucrative contract extension and has been a non-factor rushing the passer the past two years. I understand that sacks aren't everything, and QB pressures can be equally effective, but I don't see him (or anyone) consistently get pressure on opposing QBs. Sure, having better DTs would help him and everyone else, but he didn't have much to work with there in 2006, either, and he still had a very nice year. I just hope it wasn't a career year due in part to playing for an extension.

Redhook
01-26-2009, 12:25 PM
I'm also not convinced Antwan Odom is a difference maker at DE, despite being paid as one. Like most, I was concerned that he benefited in 2007 playing on the same DL as two Pro Bowlers and last year did nothing to ease those concerns.

If I'm the Bengals, one of my top priorities needs to figure out why Robert Geathers's play has dropped off the past two years. Here's a guy who had 10.5 sacks in 2006, was rewarded with a lucrative contract extension and has been a non-factor rushing the passer the past two years. I understand that sacks aren't everything, and QB pressures can be equally effective, but I don't see him (or anyone) consistently get pressure on opposing QBs. Sure, having better DTs would help him and everyone else, but he didn't have much to work with there in 2006, either, and he still had a very nice year. I just hope it wasn't a career year due in part to playing for an extension.

I'm not sure what's happened to Geathers either. I do know he was mishandled mightily in 2007 switching between LB and DE. That was an ignorant move by the Bengals. Last year, though, I thought he would be back to a decent DE.

I believe their D-Line is a bunch of average players, no difference makers. Not one guy on that line demands a double-team. I truely believe that if they Bengals can get one stud on that line it would make a world of difference. And it could be at any position, not necessarily an end.

Mario-Rijo
01-26-2009, 02:40 PM
Wow. Franchise Ghiacuic? One of the worst Centers in the NFL, and maybe the worst, and you want to pay him Top 5 money? Wow.

I agree with most of what you wrote, but Ghiacuic is really bad. Like you said, he stinks at blocking for the run, and I believe he's just as bad pass-blocking. It got so comical last year that I would spend time during a game counting how many times Ghiacuic got trampled by a D-Lineman.

Ghiacuic, at best, should be a backup. He is the main reason why the offensive is so poor. They must get a bigger better center this offseason to have any chance of having a successful offense next year.

Maybe I wasn't specific enough. What I wrote is what I think they will do, not what I wanna do.

Personally I am no fan of Ghiacuic but he's ranked higher than most FA center's. I do think people are overstating his lack of ability at pass blocking I happen to think he's good enough there. But I do agree he is the worst lineman we have (when all are healthy).

WMR
01-26-2009, 02:43 PM
I wish we would've kept Steinbach and converted him full time to a center.

Mario-Rijo
01-26-2009, 02:57 PM
I can't get behind any idea that has them bringing back essentially the same poor offensive line they fielded last year - particularly the "center piece" of it.

I'm also not convinced Antwan Odom is a difference maker at DE, despite being paid as one. Like most, I was concerned that he benefited in 2007 playing on the same DL as two Pro Bowlers and last year did nothing to ease those concerns.

If I'm the Bengals, one of my top priorities needs to figure out why Robert Geathers's play has dropped off the past two years. Here's a guy who had 10.5 sacks in 2006, was rewarded with a lucrative contract extension and has been a non-factor rushing the passer the past two years. I understand that sacks aren't everything, and QB pressures can be equally effective, but I don't see him (or anyone) consistently get pressure on opposing QBs. Sure, having better DTs would help him and everyone else, but he didn't have much to work with there in 2006, either, and he still had a very nice year. I just hope it wasn't a career year due in part to playing for an extension.

I am not necc. convinced about Odom myself but I am also not convinced he isn't either, I think it remains to be seen. As far as this past season well he was hurt from day one (shoulder) so I am not sure we ever seen a healthy Odom. And as for much money as they are paying him I imagine we'll have at least another season to find out.

On Geathers I think as Redhook eluded to his '07 you can't really blame on him as he played LB and DT along with DE that season. And he was also hurt for part of this past season so I'm not sure we need to look beyond those 2 issues. But here's a possibility, it's hard to pin your ears back and get after the QB when your offense has the ball for very little time and isn't doing anything with it when they do. He had 2.5 sacks, 12 hurries and 56 tackles in 11 games (games 1-11).

Mario-Rijo
01-26-2009, 02:59 PM
I wish we would've kept Steinbach and converted him full time to a center.

Keeping Steinbach was my 1st thought as well. I wanted to sign him and then whoever else between Williams and Willie. The guy is an excellent pulling guard, darn near prototypical LG. But yeah we then could have moved him to Center where he would have held his own.

Newport Red
01-26-2009, 03:39 PM
Maybe I wasn't specific enough. What I wrote is what I think they will do, not what I wanna do.

Personally I am no fan of Ghiacuic but he's ranked higher than most FA center's. I do think people are overstating his lack of ability at pass blocking I happen to think he's good enough there. But I do agree he is the worst lineman we have (when all are healthy).

If it is true that the Bengals are going to emphasize the run next year, signing Ghiacuic would be a disaster. And I do agree, they probably will sign him.

Sea Ray
01-26-2009, 04:00 PM
I'd like to know how many minutes the Bengals had a lead while he was healthy in 2008. He rarely had opportunities to pressure the QB. Basically I'm not worried about him. They've got other holes to fill

icehole3
01-26-2009, 05:55 PM
Maybe I wasn't specific enough. What I wrote is what I think they will do, not what I wanna do.

Personally I am no fan of Ghiacuic but he's ranked higher than most FA center's. I do think people are overstating his lack of ability at pass blocking I happen to think he's good enough there. But I do agree he is the worst lineman we have (when all are healthy).

Im not trying to bust your chops, but who's rankings are you looking at because Girlcheck cant be ranked that high, I was looking at NFL.com and there's about a half dozen centers on the free agent market. I can see the Bengals throwing some money at Saturday or a Birk. Even being as incompetent as they are they have been able to focus on one position group and grab a guy to fill a need thru free agency. They must resign Benson or this off season will be a failure IMO. As far the draft they need to stick to their draft board, when they reach they get burned. BPA on their board, grab the guy and just move onto the next round, remember whoever they draft will be holding out anyway.

Hoosier Red
01-26-2009, 06:22 PM
I'd be happy with the off season if;

1. Re sign Benson
2. Sign Birk
3. Draft a Tackle and a Center high in the draft(in the first three rounds.)
4. Trade Chad Ocho Cinco

In my mind, if there's a decent line in front of him, Carson can throw to anyone. With that in mind, I think fewer dollars need to be spent on WR's(I'm okay with letting TJ go too, though I'd prefer to keep him.)

icehole3
01-26-2009, 07:27 PM
a couple of free agent center rankings

http://www.walterfootball.com/freeagents2009C.php
http://cin.scout.com/a.z?s=117&p=9&c=12&yr=2009&nid=83&lnid=83&rc=16&pid=9

Mario-Rijo
01-26-2009, 07:28 PM
Im not trying to bust your chops, but who's rankings are you looking at because Girlcheck cant be ranked that high, I was looking at NFL.com and there's about a half dozen centers on the free agent market. I can see the Bengals throwing some money at Saturday or a Birk. Even being as incompetent as they are they have been able to focus on one position group and grab a guy to fill a need thru free agency. They must resign Benson or this off season will be a failure IMO. As far the draft they need to stick to their draft board, when they reach they get burned. BPA on their board, grab the guy and just move onto the next round, remember whoever they draft will be holding out anyway.

DraftDaddy (http://www.draftdaddy.com/features/nflfreeagents_offense.htm#7)

That is the best lists I have seen to date, he's ranked 4th.

#1 - Jason Brown - Baltimore (likely to be retained)
#2 - Brad Meester - Jax (Currently a guard)
#3 - Jeff Saturday - Colts (Much Older)
#4 - Eric Ghiacuic
#5 - Matt Birk - Minnesota (Much Older)

A guy we have already sorta kinda been linked to only due to connections (Mcanally) is Richie Incognito of St. Louis but he's not currently a FA and I doubt I would want him if he were. He seems like a good run blocker but not sure he's a good fit in the passing game. Whoever we get needs to remain healthy and be able to pass block because Carson is too important.

I don't know about Benson, I just get this feeling that he won't have the same fire he came out with this season if he gets a big contract. I also had read where he and Marvin actually didn't see things eye to eye on several occassions. Plus the games he played the best there was an awful lack of effort & tackling against us. I'm just not sold.

Emin3mShady07
01-26-2009, 09:46 PM
Kiper has the top 3 WRs coming off the board by the time the Bears pick at #18. As Bears fans, we should hope that Florida's Percy Harvin doesn't go to the Jets at #17 as predicted by Mel.

I personally think that Jeremy Maclin will still be on the board when the Bears pick so if we get a guy like that and maybe sign TJ houshmanzadeh and voila, now Orton has some guys to throw to.

icehole3
01-27-2009, 05:13 AM
DraftDaddy (http://www.draftdaddy.com/features/nflfreeagents_offense.htm#7)

That is the best lists I have seen to date, he's ranked 4th.

#1 - Jason Brown - Baltimore (likely to be retained)
#2 - Brad Meester - Jax (Currently a guard)
#3 - Jeff Saturday - Colts (Much Older)
#4 - Eric Ghiacuic
#5 - Matt Birk - Minnesota (Much Older)

A guy we have already sorta kinda been linked to only due to connections (Mcanally) is Richie Incognito of St. Louis but he's not currently a FA and I doubt I would want him if he were. He seems like a good run blocker but not sure he's a good fit in the passing game. Whoever we get needs to remain healthy and be able to pass block because Carson is too important.

I don't know about Benson, I just get this feeling that he won't have the same fire he came out with this season if he gets a big contract. I also had read where he and Marvin actually didn't see things eye to eye on several occassions. Plus the games he played the best there was an awful lack of effort & tackling against us. I'm just not sold.

I agree about Benson, even though Birk and Saturday are old, I would take a shot over Girlcheck, they dont get tossed around like a rag doll.

Screwball
01-27-2009, 07:07 AM
I'm not sure what's happened to Geathers either. I do know he was mishandled mightily in 2007 switching between LB and DE. That was an ignorant move by the Bengals. Last year, though, I thought he would be back to a decent DE.


Geathers wasn't mishandled mightily in '07. He was forced to play at linebacker because the Bengals literally had 2 healthy ones left on their roster to play an entire game. You name the linebacker and he was injured that year. While Geathers certainly wasn't an ideal option, he was about the only one left.


I believe their D-Line is a bunch of average players, no difference makers. Not one guy on that line demands a double-team. I truely believe that if they Bengals can get one stud on that line it would make a world of difference. And it could be at any position, not necessarily an end.

Agreed. However, I think Pat Sims could make a world of difference if he builds on the flashes of brilliance he showed this past season. I was none too happy when the Bengals allowed the Saints to move ahead of them to draft Sedrick Ellis, but the fact they kept their 3rd and were able to grab Rivers + Sims is looking like a great move right now. But yeah, another beast on the defensive line would be huge for this defense (which, in fact, finished 12th in ypg allowed, albeit only 21st in Aikman Efficiency Ratings (http://troyaikman.wordpress.com/category/aikman-efficiency-ratings/)).

icehole3
01-27-2009, 07:40 AM
Thats why I wouldnt be upset at all if they drafted Raji. Here's my fav 5

1. Curry
2. Rey Rey
3. Raji
4. Oher
5. Jenkins

Redhook
01-27-2009, 09:43 AM
Geathers wasn't mishandled mightily in '07. He was forced to play at linebacker because the Bengals literally had 2 healthy ones left on their roster to play an entire game. You name the linebacker and he was injured that year. While Geathers certainly wasn't an ideal option, he was about the only one left.

He was playing out of position, regardless of how many guys were injured. On top of that, the beast that John Thornton is played out of position as well at DE. So, the Bengals had two guys out of position instead of signing another LB.

That year was obviously a disaster for the Bengals linebackers. They messed up by not keeping Simmons and then it went downhill from there. I just don't believe in taking a strength, Geathers at DE, and turning it into a weakness.


Agreed. However, I think Pat Sims could make a world of difference if he builds on the flashes of brilliance he showed this past season. I was none too happy when the Bengals allowed the Saints to move ahead of them to draft Sedrick Ellis, but the fact they kept their 3rd and were able to grab Rivers + Sims is looking like a great move right now. But yeah, another beast on the defensive line would be huge for this defense (which, in fact, finished 12th in ypg allowed, albeit only 21st in Aikman Efficiency Ratings (http://troyaikman.wordpress.com/category/aikman-efficiency-ratings/)).

I'm liking Rivers and Sims as well. Their defense is turning the corner. They're close to being pretty darn good. Getting one "stud" would make a world of difference. I hope they find one.

Boss-Hog
01-27-2009, 10:27 AM
But yeah, another beast on the defensive line would be huge for this defense (which, in fact, finished 12th in ypg allowed, albeit only 21st in Aikman Efficiency Ratings).

It's important to note that they were something like 21st in yards allowed entering the last game of the season, and a good game against the Chiefs propelled them all the way up to 12th. They certainly look to be headed in the right direction, but I mention this as a cautionary reminder of how close the end of the season rankings are - enough so that a good game against a bad offense can catapult you from below average to slightly above average. They were will pretty poor in terms of points allowed, but the offense certainly had a lot to do with that.

OesterPoster
01-27-2009, 11:10 AM
I personally think that Jeremy Maclin will still be on the board when the Bears pick so if we get a guy like that and maybe sign TJ houshmanzadeh and voila, now Orton has some guys to throw to.

No way. As a general rule, WRs in the NFL take more than 1 year to have a significant impact. We drafted Simpson and Caldwell fairly high last year, so they should be ready to make an impact in '09. Caldwell even started to appear "ready" towards the end of '08. As someone else stated, I don't think it matters who Carson is throwing to. Give him time, and he'll find the open receiver. Draft heavy on the OL, DL, or LB with the first 3-4 picks.

Of course, Mike Brown could "shock" us all and go RB, WR, TE with the first 3 picks. :)

Screwball
01-27-2009, 12:48 PM
He was playing out of position, regardless of how many guys were injured. On top of that, the beast that John Thornton is played out of position as well at DE. So, the Bengals had two guys out of position instead of signing another LB.

That year was obviously a disaster for the Bengals linebackers. They messed up by not keeping Simmons and then it went downhill from there. I just don't believe in taking a strength, Geathers at DE, and turning it into a weakness.


I see what you're saying, but they just had no other choice. I'm sure the last thing the Bengals' staff wanted to do was to sign him to a big contract extension and then take him out of position. But when even the guys you pick up off the scrap heap are getting injured (e.g., LaMarr Marshall), you sometimes have to make tough choices. Good point though about Simmons. I had forgotten about him. They certainly could've used him in '07, although it should be noted that he hasn't played a snap since the Bengals cut him.

Oh and yes, the beast that is John Thornton (lol) needs to be cut yesterday. From hearing his interviews to reading his blog he genuinely seems like a smart, good guy. However, he's just not really any good. He's sort of like the Juan Castro of the Bengals. He doesn't really add anything on the field anymore, but he's such "good people" off the field, they keep him around and still give him playing time.



It's important to note that they were something like 21st in yards allowed entering the last game of the season, and a good game against the Chiefs propelled them all the way up to 12th. They certainly look to be headed in the right direction, but I mention this as a cautionary reminder of how close the end of the season rankings are - enough so that a good game against a bad offense can catapult you from below average to slightly above average. They were will pretty poor in terms of points allowed, but the offense certainly had a lot to do with that.


I think that's a good point, which is why I also added that they were 21st in the Aikman Efficiency Ratings. I don't honestly believe the Bengals have the 12th best defense in the NFL, but I do think they're (finally) showing a little bit of fight and competence. I was actually pretty proud of the fact that even though they had nothing to play for (and some Bengals fans actually wanted the team to lose), the defense still played hard and didn't mail it in at the end of the season. Zimmer, IMO, has/had a lot to do with that. As long as he's around and they upgrade the D-Line, I think this unit has a chance to legitimately be one of the 12 best in the NFL.

Sea Ray
01-27-2009, 12:49 PM
[QUOTE=Mario-Rijo;1794377A guy we have already sorta kinda been linked to only due to connections (Mcanally) is Richie Incognito of St. Louis but he's not currently a FA and I doubt I would want him if he were. He seems like a good run blocker but not sure he's a good fit in the passing game. Whoever we get needs to remain healthy and be able to pass block because Carson is too important.

I don't know about Benson, I just get this feeling that he won't have the same fire he came out with this season if he gets a big contract. I also had read where he and Marvin actually didn't see things eye to eye on several occassions. Plus the games he played the best there was an awful lack of effort & tackling against us. I'm just not sold.[/QUOTE]


I don't think pass blocking is a priority when evaluating a center. I mainly want to a center to be able to stand his ground and not get bullrushed in either a running or passing situation.

I'm OK with age in my next center. Ideally I'd like to see a guy like Saturday brought in while we draft a stud to groom. Heck, I may even be talked into bringing Braham back if that means I don't have to see Ghiacuic in Bengal stripes again. He's the worst O-lineman I've seen play for Cincinnati since Rod Jones

As for Benson, I'd like to have him back but he's not a must. I don't break the bank for him. You can always find RBs especially when you have the entire off season to shop. The next Cedric Benson will seriously consider Cincinnati because of the chance to play. There will be some talented RBs cut between now and the start of the 2009 season. Remember when Garrison Hearst fell into our laps? It happens

Sea Ray
01-27-2009, 01:00 PM
I think that's a good point, which is why I also added that they were 21st in the Aikman Efficiency Ratings. I don't honestly believe the Bengals have the 12th best defense in the NFL, but I do think they're (finally) showing a little bit of fight and competence. I was actually pretty proud of the fact that even though they had nothing to play for (and some Bengals fans actually wanted the team to lose), the defense still played hard and didn't mail it in at the end of the season. Zimmer, IMO, has/had a lot to do with that. As long as he's around and they upgrade the D-Line, I think this unit has a chance to legitimately be one of the 12 best in the NFL.


No way they ended the year with the 12th best defense but the impressive thing is how would that defense look if it had Joseph, Rivers, Ndukwe, White, Geathers and Rucker? I also think Eric Henderson can make a difference in pass rushing situations but he may be one of those guys who can't seem to stay healthy in the NFL.

OesterPoster
01-27-2009, 01:39 PM
No way. As a general rule, WRs in the NFL take more than 1 year to have a significant impact. We drafted Simpson and Caldwell fairly high last year, so they should be ready to make an impact in '09. Caldwell even started to appear "ready" towards the end of '08. As someone else stated, I don't think it matters who Carson is throwing to. Give him time, and he'll find the open receiver. Draft heavy on the OL, DL, or LB with the first 3-4 picks.

Of course, Mike Brown could "shock" us all and go RB, WR, TE with the first 3 picks. :)

Oops, just realized you're a Bears fan...so yeah, go ahead and pick Maclin. :)

bucksfan2
01-27-2009, 07:39 PM
Thats why I wouldnt be upset at all if they drafted Raji. Here's my fav 5

1. Curry
2. Rey Rey
3. Raji
4. Oher
5. Jenkins

What scares me about Raji is McShay said he could turn into a starting DT. Which to me means he isn't ready yet. I wouldn't want to spend a high pick on a player who isn't ready at a very difficult position to draft.

Rey Rey is a game changer. You find the ball and you find him. Too often that gets pushed aside when combine numbers come in.

I love Jenkins. Partly because he is my favorite player, besides Troy Smith, to play for the Bucks. I think he can be a very good cover corner but at the same time I think he could be a great safety. A game changing safety in the mold of Polamalu or Reed.

The Benglas should draft OT first unless they feel there will be a better value pick in the second round. I have a dream that Laurainitis slips to the Bengals in round 2.

Mario-Rijo
01-28-2009, 05:18 AM
Thats why I wouldnt be upset at all if they drafted Raji. Here's my fav 5

1. Curry
2. Rey Rey
3. Raji
4. Oher
5. Jenkins

My current fav 5 based on what I think would make the Bengals kick themselves for later are like this. If all were ava. at #6.

#1 - Rey Muauluga (Ray Lewis/Troy Polamalu combo clone)
#2 - Aaron Curry (Derrick Thomas-esque?)
#3 - Aaron Maybin (Like him but need to know more for sure)
#4 - B.J. Raji (I have questions about his work ethic but beyond that a beast)
#5 - Malcolm Jenkins (Gonna be a safe and quality pick regardless)

Not sure there is an elite offensive tackle in the group, they all have sizable question marks.

But I would rank them as such on potential.

Oher (Greatest potential to boom and to bust, could also end up at guard)
A. Smith (An elite RT prospect but can he be a LT and if so how good)
Monroe (How is his work ethic and character and can he hold up physically)
J. Smith (RT or RG, I doubt he has the goods to be a LT, how did he handle Orakpo?)

A. Smith is a likely top 5 pick the other 3 guys 10-20 range.

My current mock top 10:
#1 - Lions - Matthew Stafford - It's about greatest potential and he has the arm strength and enough of all other aspects to be elite.
#2 - Rams - Andre Smith LT - How can you pass on him with all the line issues they have had the past few years.
#3 - Chiefs - Aaron Curry OLB - Perfect fit to replace an old Donnie Edwards.
#4 - Seahawks - Malcolm Jenkins S - The Hawks need a FS and Malcolm is right up their alley.
#5 - Browns - Michael Crabtree - Black Hole opposite Edwards is now filled.
#6 - Bengals - Rey Muauluga - Probably wishful thinking he lasts this long but hey I like to dream.
#7 - Packers Trade w/ Raiders - B.J. Raji DT - The new man in GB is Dom Capers as defensive coordinator, NT in a 3-4 is the hardest spot to fill. If no trade is made I can see Aaron Maybin for the pack at #9 with Raji possibly going 8th to Jags.
#8 - Jags - Michael Oher OT - Raji a good fit here also but Oher is a great fit as Jax needs OL.
#9 - Raiders - Jeremy Maclin WR - Raiders need WR's and Al Loves speed, they also aren't afraid to reach.
#10 - 49ers - Mark Sanchez QB - Time to turn the page on Alex Smith and that allows Hill to return as a 1 yr stopgap to give the offense a little continuity in the meantime.

WMR
01-28-2009, 08:04 AM
I've been pimping Rey for a year and a half now. Really hope the Bungles draft him. Would be awesome to see him paired with Rivers. The new Takeo and Simmons.

WVRed
01-28-2009, 11:53 AM
I've been pimping Rey for a year and a half now. Really hope the Bungles draft him. Would be awesome to see him paired with Rivers. The new Takeo and Simmons.

You may be able to trade down to 10-15 to get Rey. That being said, Simmons and Spikes really didn't work out the last time.;)

Give me one of Andre Smith or Michael Oher, or even Brian Orapko.

WMR
01-28-2009, 01:24 PM
You may be able to trade down to 10-15 to get Rey. That being said, Simmons and Spikes really didn't work out the last time.;)

Give me one of Andre Smith or Michael Oher, or even Brian Orapko.

It didn't work out in a macro sense, but I certainly wouldn't say that it was the fault of either of those two gentlemen.

I can't imagine Rey lasting past the top 10. I think Kiper is way off on that estimation.

Mario-Rijo
01-28-2009, 06:01 PM
It didn't work out in a macro sense, but I certainly wouldn't say that it was the fault of either of those two gentlemen.

I can't imagine Rey lasting past the top 10. I think Kiper is way off on that estimation.

I agree, hopefully he doesn't last past us.

Mario-Rijo
01-28-2009, 06:10 PM
You may be able to trade down to 10-15 to get Rey. That being said, Simmons and Spikes really didn't work out the last time.;)

Give me one of Andre Smith or Michael Oher, or even Brian Orapko.

If Andre Smith is ava. I would understand if they chose him and could certainly not complain. But I would be upset if they took either of those other 2 over him, their potential to bust is too high. The last time I got as upset as I would be if that happened was when we could have had Steven Jackson and traded down & took Chris Perry. Just ask lockdwn11 I was physically sick immediately and for the rest of the day.

WVRed
01-28-2009, 06:25 PM
It didn't work out in a macro sense, but I certainly wouldn't say that it was the fault of either of those two gentlemen.

I can't imagine Rey lasting past the top 10. I think Kiper is way off on that estimation.

It's not just Kiper either.

SI and RealGM.com have him going 12th to Denver.

GBNReport has him at 16th to San Diego.

Mario-Rijo
01-28-2009, 07:22 PM
It's not just Kiper either.

SI and RealGM.com have him going 12th to Denver.

GBNReport has him at 16th to San Diego.

IIRC that's where Ray Lewis (12th?) was selected also. Neither is the most physically gifted but are very high all the way around. Curry will go higher but I expect Rey to be the more productive pro.

WVRed
01-28-2009, 08:32 PM
IIRC that's where Ray Lewis (12th?) was selected also. Neither is the most physically gifted but are very high all the way around. Curry will go higher but I expect Rey to be the more productive pro.

26th actually.

Kevin Hardy, John Mobley and Reggie Brown were all linebackers selected before Ray-Ray.

Mario-Rijo
01-30-2009, 02:00 AM
26th actually.

Kevin Hardy, John Mobley and Reggie Brown were all linebackers selected before Ray-Ray.

Wow was it that far down? I guess I had forgotten just how far he'd fallen. Hardy was a top 5 pick wasn't he or was that just his college Teammate Simeon Rice? Illinois was a heck of a team with those guys there. Mobley kinda faded quick and the last thing I remember of Reggie Brown was him at a press conference with a Halo on from his broken neck.

WVRed
01-30-2009, 10:39 PM
Hardy was taken by Jacksonville with the second overall pick.