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Razor Shines
01-27-2009, 02:59 PM
Of course it was the winning team's coach.


Girls Basketball Coach Fired After 100-0 Win

Monday , January 26, 2009

AP
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DALLAS
The coach of a Texas high school basketball team that beat another team 100-0 was fired Sunday, the same day he sent an e-mail to a newspaper saying he will not apologize "for a wide-margin victory when my girls played with honor and integrity."

Kyle Queal, the headmaster for Covenant School, said in The Dallas Morning News online edition that he could not answer if the firing was a direct result of coach Micah Grimes' e-mail disagreeing with administrators who called the blowout "shameful."

Queal did not immediately answer phone messages or e-mail from The Associated Press.

On its Web site last week, Covenant, a private Christian school, posted a statement regretting the outcome of its Jan. 13 shutout win over Dallas Academy. "It is shameful and an embarrassment that this happened. This clearly does not reflect a Christlike and honorable approach to competition," said the statement, signed by Queal and board chair Todd Doshier.

Grimes, who has been criticized for letting the game get so far out of hand, made it clear in the e-mail Sunday to the newspaper that he does not agree with his school's assessment.

"In response to the statement posted on The Covenant School Web site, I do not agree with the apology or the notion that the Covenant School girls basketball team should feel embarrassed or ashamed," Grimes wrote in the e-mail, according to the newspaper. "We played the game as it was meant to be played. My values and my beliefs would not allow me to run up the score on any opponent, and it will not allow me to apologize for a wide-margin victory when my girls played with honor and integrity."

A phone number for Grimes could not be located by The Associated Press. The Dallas Morning News said Grimes did not respond to their repeated e-mail requests for a telephone interview.

There was no answer at a number listed for Doshier.

A parent who attended the game said Covenant continued to make 3-pointers even in the fourth quarter. She praised the Covenant players but said spectators and an assistant coach were cheering wildly as their team edged closer to 100 points.

Covenant was up 59-0 at halftime.

Dallas Academy has eight girls on its varsity team and about 20 girls in its high school. It is winless over the last four seasons. The academy boasts of its small class sizes and specializes in teaching students struggling with "learning differences," such as short attention spans or dyslexia.

There is no mercy rule in girls basketball that shortens the game or permits the clock to continue running when scores become one-sided. There is, however, "a golden rule" that should have applied in this contest, Edd Burleson, the director of the Texas Association of Private and Parochial Schools, said last week. Both schools are members of this association, which oversees private school athletics in Texas.

The story has received national attention, and the Dallas Academy team has been recognized for refusing to give up during the lopsided contest.

I played sports into college. I've been on both sides of blow outs. Honestly, I always felt like more of a loser if the other team stopped trying. Once the other team stopped trying, I wanted to quit.

Here is a video of what the losing team had to say:

http://www.dallasnews.com/video/dallasnews/highschool_sports/index.html?nvid=324099&shu=1

Emin3mShady07
01-27-2009, 03:10 PM
I think it's horse manure that that guy is fired. The other team sucked, now they are getting a type of reward for it? total bull.

America, where they celebrate mediocrity and tell you its as good as greatness.

Slyder
01-27-2009, 03:37 PM
At some point you have to take the air out of the ball. Take your starters out, work on the offense, etc. You dont have to "quit trying" but the reaction of the parents and assistant coaches egged em on from the way it sounds. I dont have the game sheet in front of me so...

Did he deserve being fired? No. The reason he got fired was this was a private christian school who was losing a pr fight. If this were a public school who didnt have to worry about getting students parents to pay directly you probably dont see half the news.

Hoosier Red
01-27-2009, 03:38 PM
I think there's a difference between not trying and not pouring it on.

There are lessons of sportsmanship that can be taught in victory and defeat.

As a high school coach, more than anything you are a teacher. Apparantly this guy wasn't teaching the lessons in keeping with the school's mission and he was fired for it.

I'm curious as to what the "reward" is for the team that lost 100-0, other than the humiliation of getting crushed. Sure they've gained admiration for how they handled the defeat, and again it's good to know there are lessons that can be learned in getting thumped too.

But if you think that team "won" anything, wait until they have to face another opponent. An opponent who knows they just lost 100-0.

BRM
01-27-2009, 03:39 PM
My values and my beliefs would not allow me to run up the score on any opponent


Does that mean the coach was playing his scrubs at the end?

Blimpie
01-27-2009, 03:40 PM
I think it's horse manure that that guy is fired. The other team sucked, now they are getting a type of reward for it? total bull.

America, where they celebrate mediocrity and tell you its as good as greatness.


So, just to clarify, you are fine with the fact that their coach had them continue their full court press & jacking up 3-pointers--while they were leading by 60-70 points AND the other team had yet to score a point? Because that is what several outlets were reporting on this story.

By the way, what 'reward' did the losing team receive, exactly?

BRM
01-27-2009, 03:41 PM
So, just to clarify, you are fine with the fact that their coach had them continue their full court press & jacking up 3-pointers--while they were leading by 60-70 points AND the other team had yet to score a point?

Because that is what several outlets were reporting on this story.

If that's directed at me, no I'm not fine with it. This is the only article I've seen on it so I wasn't sure what was really happening at the end of this game.

Blimpie
01-27-2009, 03:45 PM
If that's directed at me, no I'm not fine with it. This is the only article I've seen on it so I wasn't sure what was really happening at the end of this game.Sorry for the confusion, BRM...but it was actually directed at the person who posted the sentences I quoted.

Emin3mShady07
01-27-2009, 03:48 PM
I guess it's more of a punishment (much more at that) to the winning team but it still doesn't change the way I feel. Should the winning team be blamed for the other team's failure to score at all? And by all accounts it seems they did ease up a little only scoring 41 points in the second half compared to 59 in the first. Is it morally right to kick an opponent when they are down, probably not. But by the same token is it right to take the fight out of the winning team, again I'd say probably not. Those kids were athletes, they knew the territory of the game when they started playing. Last year my high school baseball team won a game 17 - 0 in three innings, but if the game had gone 7 innings I know I would not have let up. It's the other team's responsibility to get me out, not my duty to them because they are getting the crap kicked out of them.

BRM
01-27-2009, 03:48 PM
Sorry for the confusion, BRM...but it was actually directed at the person who posted the sentences I quoted.

Gotcha. The quoted part wasn't in your post when I first read it.

Razor Shines
01-27-2009, 03:50 PM
At some point you have to take the air out of the ball. Take your starters out, work on the offense, etc. You dont have to "quit trying" but the reaction of the parents and assistant coaches egged em on from the way it sounds. I dont have the game sheet in front of me so...

Did he deserve being fired? No. The reason he got fired was this was a private christian school who was losing a pr fight. If this were a public school who didnt have to worry about getting students parents to pay directly you probably dont see half the news.

I'm guessing he did have his scrubs in. I don't have a score sheet either, but I'm willing to bet that he did.

The thing is that on a team that's really good (like the Covenant team) some of the players probably don't get very much playing time at all. When they do get a chance to play, they want to make the most of it.

As far as parents and an assistant coach egging them on:

A parent who attended the game said Covenant continued to make 3-pointers — even in the fourth quarter. She praised the Covenant players but said spectators and an assistant coach were cheering wildly as their team edged closer to 100 points.

It came from one parent (probably from the losing team) who was probably a little angry that her daughter was at the wrong end of a 100-0 game. As I said before it is most likely that the players that were in the game at the end for the winning team probably don't play very much at all. If I had to guess I would say it probably wasn't "wild cheering" or anything it was probably more of encouraging the players normally at the end of the bench for doing well.

dsmith421
01-27-2009, 03:52 PM
America, where they celebrate mediocrity and tell you its as good as greatness.

That is the he-man, macho, sports talk radio guy interpretation. It is also flat wrong. This coach had his kids running a full-court press up 85 points in a basketball game. When his school apologized to the other team for their unsportsmanlike behavior, the coach ran his mouth to the press. He deserves everything he got.

BRM
01-27-2009, 03:53 PM
This coach had his kids running a full-court press up 85 points in a basketball game.

This is the part I was unaware of. If that's the case, it's pretty ridiculous.

Razor Shines
01-27-2009, 04:03 PM
That is the he-man, macho, sports talk radio guy interpretation. It is also flat wrong. This coach had his kids running a full-court press up 85 points in a basketball game. When his school apologized to the other team for their unsportsmanlike behavior, the coach ran his mouth to the press. He deserves everything he got.
I'm not sure what to believe. The coach says:

Grimes said in his Sunday post that his team stopped applying full-court defensive pressure after the score reached 25-0 three minutes into the game, then dropped into a relatively benign zone defense and began resting its starters in favor of its three bench players.

paintmered
01-27-2009, 04:28 PM
This is the part I was unaware of. If that's the case, it's pretty ridiculous.

Yep, and that's the part where I blame the winning coach. When up by any insurmountable lead, you slow the game down as much as possible and go conservative on both ends of the court. Full-court press and launching three-point shots at that point is despicable.

Razor Shines
01-27-2009, 04:42 PM
Yep, and that's the part where I blame the winning coach. When up by any insurmountable lead, you slow the game down as much as possible and go conservative on both ends of the court. Full-court press and launching three-point shots at that point is despicable.

Ok, but he says he didn't do that. And come on, it's not despicable, bad sportsmanship, but not despicable it is just a game.

IslandRed
01-27-2009, 05:05 PM
Obviously, there are differing interpretations of the degree to which "pouring it on" happened.

I think part of the pushback is, this was high school. It's understood in the pros or college that you (usually) have the same resources available and if you can't put a competitive team out there it's your own fault. From high school on down, that's not always the case. The losing school -- 20 girls in the whole school, and seems to specialize in troubled kids -- obviously can't put a competitive team on the floor. Knowing that, maybe they should reconsider who they're scheduling, but Covenant probably isn't a big school either.

The imbalance is even worse at the youth levels and I've been on both sides. My daughter's basketball team is getting whomped on a regular basis; last night, this one girl on the other team could have beaten us 60-0 by herself while her teammates went off to the concession stand, but that didn't happen. On the flip side, our last U6 soccer team went undefeated, and in a couple of those games, the opposing coach and the referee and I simultaneously "forgot" the rule against stationing kids in goal.

When we start kids out playing sports, we always want to win, sure. But we get that there's value to playing the game beyond winning. As they get older, the winning and competing gets to be a bigger part and the kids who can't compete usually fall by the wayside. But I'd like to think that high school is not too late to learn life lessons from athletics, something beyond "second place is the first loser."

Caveat Emperor
01-27-2009, 07:36 PM
I think the other question that needs to be asked is why this other team continues to field a girl's basketball team when they only have 20 girls in the school and 8 players on the team? I can only assume they're already in the lowest athletic division possible, and they've lost all their games for 4 straight years according to the story.

Seriously -- what's the point of that? I have a hard team feeling bad for them -- sports are, by their very nature, competitive activities. If you can't be competitive, then don't cry "poor me" and expect everyone else to bow to your inabilities out of some higher notion of "sportsmanship." I agree, running the score to 100 when the other team hadn't scored a bucket was probably a little low class -- but it's equally as low class to walk a team into gyms night after night that has no chance of winning games and expecting to be pitied by opposing teams.



When we start kids out playing sports, we always want to win, sure. But we get that there's value to playing the game beyond winning. As they get older, the winning and competing gets to be a bigger part and the kids who can't compete usually fall by the wayside. But I'd like to think that high school is not too late to learn life lessons from athletics, something beyond "second place is the first loser."

No offense, but I think that attitude is problematic. Life has winners. Life has losers. Just like some people are athletically gifted and talented, other simply aren't. It's as important to prepare kids to deal with failure and the realization that there are some things that, no matter how hard they "try", that they simply aren't going to be very good at. Part of maturity is recognizing this and moving on.

Life won't ease up because the score gets rough. A boss will still fire you even if you have lots of other problems going on. The rent will still be due on the 1st of the month even if you're broke. Trying real hard won't make advanced calculus any easier if you don't have a head for numbers.

Life lessons come in those forms too, and I think people forget that too often.

cincrazy
01-27-2009, 08:51 PM
I guess it's more of a punishment (much more at that) to the winning team but it still doesn't change the way I feel. Should the winning team be blamed for the other team's failure to score at all? And by all accounts it seems they did ease up a little only scoring 41 points in the second half compared to 59 in the first. Is it morally right to kick an opponent when they are down, probably not. But by the same token is it right to take the fight out of the winning team, again I'd say probably not. Those kids were athletes, they knew the territory of the game when they started playing. Last year my high school baseball team won a game 17 - 0 in three innings, but if the game had gone 7 innings I know I would not have let up. It's the other team's responsibility to get me out, not my duty to them because they are getting the crap kicked out of them.

It's not right to embarrass someone like that. You don't tell your kid's to quit trying, but you DO let the foot off the pedal. The team they were playing is a school of 20 girl's, and I believe that I read the school is for children with learning disabilities, such as dyslexia. The school is embarrassed, as they should be. And for the coach to publicly display his disagreement with that led to him justifiably getting fired, IMO.

guttle11
01-27-2009, 08:57 PM
They scored 12 points in the 4th quarter. Clearly they let up for 1/4 of the game. I fail to see a problem.

People forget about the winning team's girls. They've become the victims of adults far more than the losing team at this point. The team that lost gets all the attention, love, and even a chance to watch an NBA game from a suite. At 14-17, they won't remember this game 5 years from now. The winning team lost their coach, is viewed as epitomizing the wrong side of sports, and now has lost their coach and the support from their school administrators in the middle of the season. That's not something you forget so easily.

And for what, admins, parents, and pundits thirsty for blood and immediate retribution? Fire the guy after the season if you want, but don't ruin the girls' season because they weren't told to run the 4 corners offense after 13 minutes of play. They're the ones being hurt most in all of this. You know the rest...two wrongs don't make a right.

Youth sports were great until adults got involved.

Razor Shines
01-27-2009, 10:32 PM
Damn CE, that is a really good post.

Chip R
01-27-2009, 10:59 PM
This is an interesting topic. You hate to see a team lose 100-0 but if they had lost 98-6, it wouldn't have been that big of a deal. Was that coach guilty of unsportsmanlike conduct? Yeah, but I don't think he deserved to lose his job over it. It's not like he molested anyone or had a DUI. He didn't even assault anyone. People can do what they want but if I were on a team that lost 100-0 and we're being treated like world champs, I'd be awfully embarrassed. But this is the Andy Warhol culture we're in where everyone is famous for 15 minutes.

Another aspect of this that people don't usually think about is if you step off the pedal, how do you do it without making it look like you are pitying the other team? Should people intentionally miss shots? Turn over the ball? Get beat on defense on purpose so the other team can score? Do you dive for loose balls? Try to block shots? Block out on the boards? If you do those things and the other team knows it, are you making them feel better that they had a positive result even though it was tainted, or are you making them feel worse because the only way they could have that positive result is cause you let them?

There's also something to be said for performing up to your abilities all the time regardless of the score. You're a 3rd string QB and your team is up in the 4th quarter 56-3. When the coach puts you in the game in that situation, the acceptable behavior is to just hand off the ball to the running back. But how often do you get into a game against live competition? You want to show what you can do in case, somewhere down the road, you're in the game in a competitive situation.

Emin3mShady07
01-27-2009, 11:25 PM
Also, I feel that three pointers are just a shot, if they are open, they should take it. It is harder to make (presumably) than a 15 foot jumper so I think the difference in difficulty would offset the difference in points if they only took twos. So if those girls had gone all derrick rose and just drove the lane would that have been more palatable? It's like throwing the ball in the 4th quarter when you are up, it's not rubbing it in, its just an offensive play and unless you are throwing 60 yard hail mary's than it shouldn't be criticized.

WVRed
01-27-2009, 11:56 PM
Another thing that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is that the losing team's school caters to students with learning disabilities. If that is the case, I would fire whoever decided to schedule them, whether it be the coach or AD.

On the other hand, I completely agree with guttle. Even with the above situation, you are demonizing success.

If this were college football, Steve Spurrier would have been fired 100 times over already.

Donder
01-28-2009, 04:30 AM
I think the other question that needs to be asked is why this other team continues to field a girl's basketball team when they only have 20 girls in the school and 8 players on the team? I can only assume they're already in the lowest athletic division possible, and they've lost all their games for 4 straight years according to the story.

Seriously -- what's the point of that? I have a hard team feeling bad for them -- sports are, by their very nature, competitive activities. If you can't be competitive, then don't cry "poor me" and expect everyone else to bow to your inabilities out of some higher notion of "sportsmanship." I agree, running the score to 100 when the other team hadn't scored a bucket was probably a little low class -- but it's equally as low class to walk a team into gyms night after night that has no chance of winning games and expecting to be pitied by opposing teams.

I assume they field a team because they have girls who enjoy playing basketball. Should you stop doing something you enjoy just because you're not very good at it? If so I guess my golfing days should be over. Besides this is a school that caters to students with low academic abilities. Being an educator I know that you want to give students who struggle as much incentive to work hard as possible. If they want to play on the basketball team let that be a reward as long as they keep their grades up. In my school many student athletes receive their best grades during their sport's season because the have the extra motivation to pass.

As far as crying "poor me" I might have missed it but I don't recall ever hearing that the team complained about being beaten so badly. It seems like this story was a creation of the winning school (for seeking to forfeit the game afterwords) and the media. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't heard much of anything from the losing school.

SandyD
01-28-2009, 07:03 AM
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/012209dnsposhutout.40d72ee.html

Actally, Dallas Academy has withdrawn from the 6-team league and cancelled their jan 30th game against Covenant. They are looking for non-league opponents to fill out their scedule.

Donder
01-28-2009, 08:31 AM
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/012209dnsposhutout.40d72ee.html

Actally, Dallas Academy has withdrawn from the 6-team league and cancelled their jan 30th game against Covenant. They are looking for non-league opponents to fill out their scedule.

Interesting to hear from the losing team's perspective. Another reason they field a girl's basketball team might be because of Title IX. They might have no choice except to offer a girls basketball team.

GoReds33
01-28-2009, 10:05 AM
It's sad that it came to this. I can understand if the best players played the whole game. I could also understand if they put up 30 in the fourth quarter. However, twelve points is taking it easy on an opponent. Like was pointed out earlier, the fans were the reason it was taken like this. If they just would have kept quiet, there might be a fuss about this, but I doubt they would have fired the coach.

Unassisted
01-28-2009, 10:21 AM
Another thing that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is that the losing team's school caters to students with learning disabilities.

That's a point that's being emphasized around here. This should have been a game for the Covenant School's JV or freshman team.

Razor Shines
01-28-2009, 10:35 AM
It's sad that it came to this. I can understand if the best players played the whole game. I could also understand if they put up 30 in the fourth quarter. However, twelve points is taking it easy on an opponent. Like was pointed out earlier, the fans were the reason it was taken like this. If they just would have kept quiet, there might be a fuss about this, but I doubt they would have fired the coach.

Let's say your daughter plays on a really good team and doesn't get to play very often. And then when she does get a chance to play and actually score you're supposed to sit on your hands and shut your mouth?

Donder
01-28-2009, 10:45 AM
It's sad that it came to this. I can understand if the best players played the whole game. I could also understand if they put up 30 in the fourth quarter. However, twelve points is taking it easy on an opponent. Like was pointed out earlier, the fans were the reason it was taken like this. If they just would have kept quiet, there might be a fuss about this, but I doubt they would have fired the coach.

To clarify apparently Covenant began taking it easy with four minutes left to play in the game once they scored their 100th point.

Deepred05
01-28-2009, 10:46 AM
They could have "let" the other team score a couple of goals. Saw a Real Sports segment where the opposing team let a handicapped player shoot a goal. Isn't that what sportsmanship is supposed to be?

Danny Serafini
01-28-2009, 11:05 AM
I think the thing that's getting missed here is that this coach probably would still have his job if he hadn't sent that idiotic e-mail to the newspaper. He didn't get fired right away for winning 100-0, it wasn't until after calling out his bosses publicly that he got canned. Never a good idea.

Razor Shines
01-28-2009, 11:15 AM
They could have "let" the other team score a couple of goals. Saw a Real Sports segment where the opposing team let a handicapped player shoot a goal. Isn't that what sportsmanship is supposed to be?

Well these girls weren't handicapped. So, no, I don't believe they should have 'let' them score.

Newport Red
01-28-2009, 11:51 AM
Let's say your daughter plays on a really good team and doesn't get to play very often. And then when she does get a chance to play and actually score you're supposed to sit on your hands and shut your mouth?

The opposing team hasn't won a game in 4 years!! The coach should have started the scrubs.

Razor Shines
01-28-2009, 11:55 AM
The opposing team hasn't won a game in 4 years!! The coach should have started the scrubs.

I disagree. You still treat it like a real game. And as CE said above maybe that other team shouldn't be playing if other teams are going to be expected to start their "scrubs". Maybe Dallas Academy should be playing other schools JV teams.

Newport Red
01-28-2009, 12:11 PM
I disagree. You still treat it like a real game. And as CE said above maybe that other team shouldn't be playing if other teams are going to be expected to start their "scrubs". Maybe Dallas Academy should be playing other schools JV teams.

Well, he played it your way and now he's unemployed. Great career move.

*BaseClogger*
01-28-2009, 12:12 PM
Am I missing something? Did somebody get hurt? :confused:

WVRed
01-28-2009, 12:31 PM
I disagree. You still treat it like a real game. And as CE said above maybe that other team shouldn't be playing if other teams are going to be expected to start their "scrubs". Maybe Dallas Academy should be playing other schools JV teams.

My argument is that this game never should have been played to begin with.

Of course, it takes two to tango. As much as we can criticize Covenant for winning 100-0, would it be fair to criticize Dallas Academy for getting into a game that they knew would end up extremely lopsided with no benefit to either team?

Reds Freak
01-28-2009, 12:48 PM
My argument is that this game never should have been played to begin with.

Of course, it takes two to tango. As much as we can criticize Covenant for winning 100-0, would it be fair to criticize Dallas Academy for getting into a game that they knew would end up extremely lopsided with no benefit to either team?

I agree, the game never should have been scheduled. Both schools had to know what they were getting into with this game.

I'm torn on this and I assume we don't know the whole story. Like someone else said, especially at the high school level, a coach is a teacher more than anything. High school sports offer a fantastic opportunity to develop the whole self: mentally, phsyically, socially, and in the development of character.

The values of integrity, respect, sportsmanship, and teamwork should be the number one thing a high school coach tries to pass on to his or her players. Focusing on wins and losses and the scoreboard is the absolute wrong way to coach high school sports (and most of the time gets in the way of winning). Firing a coach based on a score of a game is in total contradiction to that philosophy. The school is essentially sending the message that the final score is more important than those values a high school coach is supposed to be conveying.

Newport Red
01-28-2009, 12:48 PM
My argument is that this game never should have been played to begin with.

Of course, it takes two to tango. As much as we can criticize Covenant for winning 100-0, would it be fair to criticize Dallas Academy for getting into a game that they knew would end up extremely lopsided with no benefit to either team?

I agree the game should never have been scheduled. Both schools have some degree of responsibiliy.

I don't know the coach of Covenant but he seems to be a "Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead" type personality. If that is the case, he needed to schedule like minded schools. Dallas Academy obviously wasn't that kind of school.

Roy Tucker
01-28-2009, 01:02 PM
I think there is enough blame for everyone.

Dallas Academy put their kids in a bad situation. As others have said, that game shouldn't have been played. If your team has issues with ability, you owe it to the kids to put them in a league where they at least have a prayer of winning. To put them in a league where they are completely over their heads is just setting them up to get drilled repeatedly. What lesson is learned then?

For Covenant, I think you need to know when enough is enough. My kids have played on good teams where they clearly outclass the opponent. The coach does say that we owe it to the other team to play our best. Which the kids then do and beat the tar out of the other team.

But when the issue is no longer in doubt, you've scored enough so that there is absolutely no way the other team will come back (like leading 59-0 at half), the coach should empty the bench, pull back the defense, slow down the offense, and allow some semblence of face-saving for the other team.

If you read that article that Sandy posted, the Covenant point guard scored 48 points off numerous steals and was described as a "lay-up drill". If that were my kids, I'd say "OK, let's stop doing that, let them bring the ball up court and see if they can run an offense".

I believe that if you have the ability, you should honor it and use it and beat the snot out of a team. But there is a difference between beating the snot out of a team and grinding totally and completely under your boot heel and show no mercy. Yeah its a tough cruel world, but this still is children playing sports.

GoReds33
01-28-2009, 01:54 PM
Let's say your daughter plays on a really good team and doesn't get to play very often. And then when she does get a chance to play and actually score you're supposed to sit on your hands and shut your mouth?No, not my point at all. I'm trying to say that the parents were allegedly cheering to get teh score up to 100. That's just not right. However, I fully expect a parent to cheer for their child. I also expect them to have the courtesy not to be pointlessly cheering.

Razor Shines
01-28-2009, 02:41 PM
Well, he played it your way and now he's unemployed. Great career move.

What does that have to do with anything? And by most accounts he was fired for his email after the game, not for the way he handled the game.

And further more, even if he was he fired for the way he handled the game, he should have gone against his principles just save his job? If he felt treating the game as a real game waa thw right thing to do, but knew he was going to get in trouble for treating it that way, then I have respect for him.

Caveat Emperor
01-28-2009, 02:43 PM
They could have "let" the other team score a couple of goals. Saw a Real Sports segment where the opposing team let a handicapped player shoot a goal. Isn't that what sportsmanship is supposed to be?

How is it showing "sportsmanship" to take pity on an opposing team and let the other team score? What message is THAT sending: "Sorry, we know you suck really badly, so here -- take a couple meaningless layups and see if you can make a few shots when we're not trying?" Same deal with just sitting on the ball, running the four corners and not shooting -- it's just pitying and pathetic to the opposition.

Really, the truly sportsman-like way to handle this situation would've been for the coach at the Covenant school to go to the other school's coach and ask them to forfeit after 1 quarter or the first half once it became obvious that the game was out of hand.

Newport Red
01-28-2009, 04:16 PM
What does that have to do with anything? And by most accounts he was fired for his email after the game, not for the way he handled the game.

And further more, even if he was he fired for the way he handled the game, he should have gone against his principles just save his job? If he felt treating the game as a real game waa thw right thing to do, but knew he was going to get in trouble for treating it that way, then I have respect for him.

I agree it was the email that ultimately got him fired but it was the way he handled the game that resulted in following controversy and that includes the e-mail.

IslandRed
01-28-2009, 05:28 PM
No offense, but I think that attitude is problematic. Life has winners. Life has losers. Just like some people are athletically gifted and talented, other simply aren't. It's as important to prepare kids to deal with failure and the realization that there are some things that, no matter how hard they "try", that they simply aren't going to be very good at. Part of maturity is recognizing this and moving on.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. I don't think the value of playing sports ends when you realize you're never going to be the best. In fact, most people will say one of sport's primary values is how it teaches people to deal with failure, to get knocked down and get back up again and keep trying. Let's be honest, in the big picture, very few high-school teams could be fielded if all the kids who didn't have a future in sports chose not to play. But they do. They strive, they try to be the best, they hurt when they lose. But there's something to it other than winning, some purpose in it other than separating themselves into Winners and Losers.

So when you ask why they bother fielding a team when they suck that bad, maybe that's why.

Hoosier Red
01-29-2009, 02:29 PM
The fact that they called off the dogs with 4 minutes left makes this all the more galling IMO, I assume Texas HS is 8 minute quarters, so in 28 minutes, the team scored 100 points before slowing things down and not scoring again.

If that's the case, there's no way you can tell me the intent, when it was 59-0 at half time was to do anything other than score 100 points and complete the humiliation.

If they called off the dogs at 4 mins left in the game, why not earlier? The lead wasn't safe until it was triple digits?

*BaseClogger*
01-29-2009, 08:14 PM
The fact that they called off the dogs with 4 minutes left makes this all the more galling IMO, I assume Texas HS is 8 minute quarters, so in 28 minutes, the team scored 100 points before slowing things down and not scoring again.

If that's the case, there's no way you can tell me the intent, when it was 59-0 at half time was to do anything other than score 100 points and complete the humiliation.

If they called off the dogs at 4 mins left in the game, why not earlier? The lead wasn't safe until it was triple digits?

What do you consider calling off the dogs? Putting the subs in?

WVRed
01-29-2009, 09:05 PM
I posted this on my blog listed in my signature. This pretty much sums up my thoughts on high school athletics.


Before I make comments on the Kentucky-Ole Miss game, I want to comment on the overall state of sports in general, mostly a high school girls game in Texas that has created a lot of controversy.

Covenant School in Dallas, Texas managed to hand Dallas Academy, a small private school that caters to students with learning disabilities, a 100-0 embarrassment of a loss. After refusing to apologize for running up the score, Kyle Queal, the coach of the Covenant school, was dismissed.

The losing team has received much affection from the public and the media and you almost have to wonder how much of it is warranted. In addition, the girls were given a luxury suite at a WNBA game. The winning team lost its coach and has come under intense ridicule.

For the record, I realize that some of the girls on the team may have been special needs children, but the fact of the matter is, this game should have never been scheduled or agreed in principle to start with. Before you get on your high horse and criticize Covenant, remember that it takes two to tango. Dallas Academy should have realized going in that they would likely have been in a situation similar to this before they decided to play a superior team. In addition, Covenant should not have scheduled Dallas Academy because there is no benefit to playing a team that you are going to walk all over.

Any time you look at high school sports, especially basketball, you always want to schedule teams early on that can give you a better chance to examine yourself and prepare ultimately for championships. I followed Rose Hill for the two years OJ Mayo starred and watched Rose Hill take on teams in-state that were powerhouses. They weren't overly successful, but it eventually led them to their first and only trip to Rupp Arena. This game did not serve a purpose for either team and it is unfortunate that as a result, we are led to debate whether or not mediocrity should be accepted in sports.

If you want further proof, just examine the divisions based on class sizes. In Kentucky especially, schools have been divided into public and private, and the divisions are divided based on the class sizes. For example, where I am originally from in northeastern Kentucky in the 16th region, Ashland is the largest school in the district and has been moved to a new district, playing teams all over the state from Tates Creek and Bryant Station to Pikeville. The famous Boyd County-Ashland inner city rivalry now doesn't have the same impact as it does every season.

Schools such as Rose Hill, Lexington Catholic, and the private schools in Louisville have paved the way to the cries of foul by public schools, and as a result it is now set up to where every child gets a trophy, and the true sports fans will never really know the true champion. If you look at college basketball, this is what March Madness is all about, as we get to see a Cinderella such as George Mason or Davidson shock the world. We like pulling for the underdogs, but now the way the system is set up, it eliminates that.

It's been said that high school sports was fine until adults got involved. Looking at some other cases I have seen personally, I would have to agree:



In Kentucky, a story that will likely make bigger news in the near future is the death of a student due to overheating similar to Korey Stringer of the Minnesota Vikings. Pleasure Ridge Park coach David Jason Stinson was indicted for the death of 15 year old Max Gilpin. This could be a dangerous precedent to set, but I fully understand the reasoning. However, it will be interesting to see what else transpires.

A story in Kentucky that I know all too well growing up. Former Greenup County basketball coach Randy Ward, after winning the first game in state at Rupp Arena during the semifinals, decided to take the team to Hooters after the game to celebrate. He then tried to defend himself by saying Hooters was a "family restaurant", which became a punchline for Jay Leno. The parents were up in arms over this, but not for the reason you might think. A lot of parents were dissatisfied with Coach Ward's style of play and decided to use "Hootergate" to axe the coach. However, Coach Ward was able to keep his job until he was eventually fired in a recruiting incident that landed Greenup County on probation with the KHSAA.

Another story that is more disturbing that is similar, but happened here in West Virginia at Parkersburg High School. Former coach Marshall Burdette had allegations brought against him that he had propositioned some of the players that had played for him and as a result was forced to resign. As with Coach Ward, some of these players parents were unhappy with the way Coach Burdette was handling the team and wanted a new coach, however there is some question as to the legitimacy of the complaints. Burdette assistant Craig Farnsworth took over the team and led them to a state championship and decided not to take it, even with full booster support, over the way Coach Burdette was handled.

paintmered
01-29-2009, 10:46 PM
What do you consider calling off the dogs? Putting the subs in?

IMO, it's instituting a 10-pass rule before allowing a shot on office. Even if there's a shot clock, take 30-35 seconds before attempting a shot. If you get the rebound, repeat the process. Do what you can to shorten the game as much as possible. You can do those things and still play hard and try.

pahster
02-01-2009, 09:39 AM
IMO, it's instituting a 10-pass rule before allowing a shot on office. Even if there's a shot clock, take 30-35 seconds before attempting a shot. If you get the rebound, repeat the process. Do what you can to shorten the game as much as possible. You can do those things and still play hard and try.

Yep. That's what my team did when I played high school ball. In baseball, once we were up by 10 we'd stop stealing (exception: unless we were playing a VERY good team that happened to be having a bad inning or two). Once we were up by 15 we'd stop advancing on passed balls/wild pitches.

Caseyfan21
02-01-2009, 11:43 AM
They could have "let" the other team score a couple of goals. Saw a Real Sports segment where the opposing team let a handicapped player shoot a goal. Isn't that what sportsmanship is supposed to be?


The opposing team hasn't won a game in 4 years!! The coach should have started the scrubs.

These opinions are, IMO, the wrong way to approach a game and the wrong way to teach younger players. When I was in Jr. High and HS, our boys basketball team was stacked. We were good, we knew it, and we rarely lost a game. Our JV coach would always approach the games against weak teams the same as hard teams...except in the locker room before the game he would tell the team "Alright boys, let's get out there in the first half, blow them out, and get the bench guys a lot of playing time in the second half." That is the right way to approach a game, not "playing nice from the start." If you let your focus down and start bench players then you are leaving yourself mentally unprepared for the game IMO.

And as for letting the team take shots, I don't think ANY high school player would do that in a regular game. I have seen the game you spoke of and that's a special circumstance, but in a regular game that is just opening yourself up to ridicule from teammates IMO. If you were nice and let your opponent score on purpose and the final score was 100-2, guess who's gonna get made fun of on after the game? The girl who let her opponent score on purpose. When I was playing freshman basketball we had a game against our rival that was a severe mismatch. We were up 24-2 at the half and all we did the entire halftime (coach included) was poke fun at the guy whose man scored. It's just the team mentality and there isn't much you can do about it. HS kids don't think about being nice, they think about competing and doing their best.

I've been on both ends of scores like that. One game when I played traveling basketball growing up we won 72-10. Our coach was a good guy but against this team it was impossible not to pour it on. You just play hard and execute and don't give anything away and there is nothing you can be criticized for. Being on the losing end I would hate to be given anything.

Hoosier Red
02-01-2009, 11:47 AM
IMO, it's instituting a 10-pass rule before allowing a shot on office. Even if there's a shot clock, take 30-35 seconds before attempting a shot. If you get the rebound, repeat the process. Do what you can to shorten the game as much as possible. You can do those things and still play hard and try.

One other point on this, by not running any offense, and just turning it into a layup line, you're robbing your own team of some valuable practice.

What did they learn by stealing the ball at half court and running to the other side? If they hold up and actually run an offense, the final score may be 76-0, 80-0, or 90-0 but it probably wouldn't have made the papers, and your team might have gotten something out it.

RFS62
02-02-2009, 05:52 PM
This seems like a complete no-brainer to me.

The coach was trying to get to 100. That was his goal, once he saw it was pretty much impossible to stop, and he did it.

He's a cretin, and I hope he never gets another opportunity to influence young minds.

We overcomplicate things sometimes.

Like AM and PM.

GAC
02-02-2009, 07:32 PM
There is no mercy rule in girls basketball that shortens the game or permits the clock to continue running when scores become one-sided. There is, however, "a golden rule" that should have applied in this contest, Edd Burleson, the director of the Texas Association of Private and Parochial Schools, said last week.

Amen to that.

Chip R
02-18-2009, 01:31 PM
Here's the flip side of this story

http://sports.espn.go.com/highschool/rise/basketball/boys/news/story?id=3914375

Razor Shines
02-18-2009, 04:52 PM
Here's the flip side of this story

http://sports.espn.go.com/highschool/rise/basketball/boys/news/story?id=3914375
That's a cool story and a nice gesture by that team, but I really don't see what it has to do with the original subject.

Chip R
02-18-2009, 04:57 PM
That's a cool story and a nice gesture by that team, but I really don't see what it has to do with the original subject.


As I said, it was the flip side of the original story. The original one was seen as unsportsmanlike and this story is seen as sportsmanlike.

Razor Shines
02-18-2009, 09:50 PM
As I said, it was the flip side of the original story. The original one was seen as unsportsmanlike and this story is seen as sportsmanlike.

No, I completely understand what you were saying and implying, but I don't think it's the "flip side". I don't think that they're related much at all.

Sorry if you thought that I was implying that you were attempting to take the thread or something, I wasn't. I just made a poor attempt to disagree with your point.

westofyou
03-01-2009, 09:22 PM
Always play a game with somebody, never against them. Always win a game, never beat an opponent.

- Andrew Bailey