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Chip R
01-27-2009, 07:17 PM
Here's the recap of the Reds Hot Stove League show report for 1-27-08. Thom was the host tonight. He started the show by talking about the caravan and season tickets.

The first caller thanked Thom for the caravan and Thom said he can't believe that people are still so passionate about the Reds considering how lousy they have been.

The next person wanted to know if Walt was interested in bring in a minor league OFer named Perez from Tampa. Thom said that what he sees happening is Votto to LF and Yonder to 1st.

The next caller wanted to know what the top 2 spots in the batting order would be if Gonzo was healthy and Hariston won the every day LF job. Thom said it would probably be Tavaras leading off. He said that LaRussa likes to use a power guy in the #2 spot and maybe Phillips or Dickerson could be that #2 guy but they may strike out too much.

The next guy asked about the NL Central and Thom said the Reds are the second most improved team in the division.

The next person asked who would be the 5th starter and if Bruce could continue his play from last season. Thom said the Reds are still high on Homer. He said Owings, Thompson, Ramirez and Masset could be the 5th starter.

The next caller was concerned about the lack of lefty starters. Thom said the Angels have the same problem in the bullpen but they would rather have good RH pitchers than mediocre LH pitchers.

The next caller defended the Reds decision to not spend more money. He said they weren't going to sign Manny and they are at least a year away. Thom said they didn't cut the budget and they addressed their needs. He said the Reds were a laughingstock when they signed Milton.

The next guy asked about the AZ complex. Thom said it's in Goodyear about 11 miles west of Phoenix. He also said Sarasta doesn't have a team to replace the Reds.

Thom closed the show by congratulating Sean Casey on his retirement.

Heath
01-27-2009, 07:20 PM
Here's the recap of the Reds Hot Stove League show report for 1-27-08. Thom was the host tonight. He started the show by talking about the caravan and season tickets.

The first caller thanked Thom for the caravan and Thom said he can't believe that people are still so passionate about the Reds considering how lousy they have been.

The next person wanted to know if Walt was interested in bring in a minor league OFer named Perez from Tampa. Thom said that what he sees happening is Votto to LF and Yonder to 1st.

The next caller wanted to know what the top 2 spots in the batting order would be if Gonzo was healthy and Hariston won the every day LF job. Thom said it would probably be Tavaras leading off. He said that LaRussa likes to use a power guy in the #2 spot and maybe Phillips or Dickerson could be that #2 guy but they may strike out too much.

The next guy asked about the NL Central and Thom said the Reds are the second most improved team in the division.

The next person asked who would be the 5th starter and if Bruce could continue his play from last season. Thom said the Reds are still high on Homer. He said Owings, Thompson, Ramirez and Masset could be the 5th starter.

The next caller was concerned about the lack of lefty starters. Thom said the Angels have the same problem in the bullpen but they would rather have good RH pitchers than mediocre LH pitchers.

The next caller defended the Reds decision to not spend more money. He said they weren't going to sign Manny and they are at least a year away. Thom said they didn't cut the budget and they addressed their needs. He said the Reds were a laughingstock when they signed Milton.

The next guy asked about the AZ complex. Thom said it's in Goodyear about 11 miles west of Phoenix. He also said Sarasta doesn't have a team to replace the Reds.

Thom closed the show by congratulating Sean Casey on his retirement.

The bolded is a bit of news, that even, T. Brennaman didn't elaborate on.

Well Done Chippers!!

BCubb2003
01-27-2009, 08:11 PM
Thom said he can't believe that people are still so passionate about the Reds considering how lousy they have been.



He went on to call the fans "chumps" and said, "Give it up, already!"

Raisor
01-27-2009, 08:15 PM
Wasn't Walt supposed to be on after HSL? Anyone give a listen?

Chip R
01-27-2009, 10:34 PM
Wasn't Walt supposed to be on after HSL? Anyone give a listen?


I listened to some of it. Nothing new, really except that he graded Tavaras as average to above average defensively and Patterson the same. Daugherty kind of baited him talking about how the team had a winning record after Dunn was traded and Walt said that they played well after he was traded.

Hoosier Red
01-27-2009, 11:43 PM
You didn't mention the guy who complained about being drunk and getting arrested last summer.
That was my favorite call, Thom is not a better person for having spoken to that guy.

Blitz Dorsey
01-28-2009, 12:24 AM
Thom did not seriously say that (Dusty) likes to use a "power guy" in the No. 2 spot, did he? How would he then explain using Janish there for a couple weeks last year when he was up?

A better way of saying it is Dusty likes to bat the SS in the 2 hole. This is why I have little doubt the lineup will be:

1. Taveras CF
2. Gonzalez/Hairston SS
3. Votto 1B
4. Phillips 2B (or Encarnacion 3B)
5. Bruce RF
6. Encarnacion 3B (or Phillips 2B)
7. Hernandez C
8. Dickerson/Gomes LF (or he could bat Hernandez 8th and the LF 7th)

Chip R
01-28-2009, 12:24 AM
You didn't mention the guy who complained about being drunk and getting arrested last summer.
That was my favorite call, Thom is not a better person for having spoken to that guy.


Yeah, I'll touch on that tomorrow. :lol:

LoganBuck
01-28-2009, 07:11 AM
Walt was on with Daugherty at 7.

Nothing new. Thinks team will be different and refreshing. More exciting with improved defense. You know the drill.

Daugherty apparently has had his inbox filled with posts about how terrible Taveras is because he asked Walt directly about Taveras' defense. Walt called him "average to above average with an above average arm".

He is hopeful that Gonzalez will be back.

Likes the pitching staff.

The whole conversation was company line. Said they haven't really looked at ANY power bat since the Jermaine Dye trade talks fell through.

jojo
01-28-2009, 07:27 AM
I think it's fair for Jocketty to call Taveras something akin to a neutral defender. It's actually encouraging to see him describe Taveras' defensive ceiling honestly.

On a side rant, Bob C should be banned from interacting with the media.

nate
01-28-2009, 09:01 AM
I think it's fair for Jocketty to call Taveras something akin to a neutral defender. It's actually encouraging to see him describe Taveras' defensive ceiling honestly.

On a side rant, Bob C should be banned from interacting with the media.

He's no silver-tongued charmer.

More like a sandpaper-tongued cat that just eat chunky peanut butter.

OldXOhio
01-28-2009, 10:14 AM
You didn't mention the guy who complained about being drunk and getting arrested last summer.
That was my favorite call, Thom is not a better person for having spoken to that guy.

That's okay - he's got a surplus of better in him after spending 15 minutes with Tim Tebow earlier this month.

Chip R
01-28-2009, 01:12 PM
Here is the Reds Hot Stove League show report for 1-27-09. Thom was the only host and he started off the show by thanking everyone who came out to the caravans. He also pimped season tickets.

The first caller thanked Thom, et. al. for doing the caravan. Thom said he is amazed about the number of people love and care about Reds baseball even though they haven't had a winning season since 2000 and want to see them do better. The caller said it has a lot to do with the announcers. (The same announcers who think nothing about degrading players on the same team.)

The next caller said he asked Walt if he was interested in acquiring Fernando Perez from the Rays. Walt told him they aren't interested in dealing him. He asked if there is someone in the minors similar to him who is on his way up. Thom said that he's talked to Walt and Walt has told him that decision is at least a year away but Thom's thinking that if Yonder is all that he's supposed to be, they will probably move Votto to LF. He thinks the corner OFers of the future are Votto in LF and Bruce in RF and you probably can't do much better than that. Thom said Votto is a good enough athlete to make the switch and he's enough of a team guy to do it and the question is, will they have to ask him. (Knowing this bunch, they'll be scared silly to ask.)

After commercial, the next caller asked assuming Gonzo is healthy and Hariston wins the everyday LF job (God help us) who would bat 1 & 2, Hariston and Tavaras or Tavaras and Hariston and will Brandon bat 4th and he asked if Harang was healthy. Thom said Aaron's healthy and proved it at the end of last season. He said that Tavaras is here to lead off and he'd have to dramatically fall off or falter for that to change. (like fall off a cliff.) Thom said there's a theory out there that La Russa has popularized about having a big bat in the 2 spot. He wonders of Phillips or Hariston is that guy or perhaps Dickerson but he and Phillips may strike out too much. He said that during the caravan, Walt and Dusty made it clear that they will tinker with the lineup a lot during ST to see where some of these pieces come into place. The caller asked if there were any moves coming like trading for Nady. Thom said he doesn't think anything else will happen. He thinks a lot of guys out there who are still available are in for a rude awakening.

The next caller made one of the all time classic calls on the HSL. I'm going to try to do it word for word:

Thom: **** is standing by in West Virginia. How are you, ****?
Caller: I'm doin' fine. I'm a huge Dodger fan here in West Virginia. Grew up listening to your dad and Joe Nuxhall. They did an excellent job for the Reds even though I always wanted them to lose.
Thom: Mmhmm.
Caller: Cause they were in the same division at that time... I just wanted to say back in last June you referred to me as a monster when I got arrested.
Thom: A what?
Caller: A monster.
Thom: I have no idea what in the world you are talking about, ****.
Caller: The Reds game I got arrested - you wouldn't remember that.
Thom: I wouldn't have any idea.
Caller: I'd like to take this opportunity to, um, when I was like taken below the stadium, you know, I wasn't able to get my $600 worth of property back. I tried to plead with the cops to get it. They wouldn't let me get it. So naturally I became quite angry and, uh, verbally abusive and one of the cops - cause at the time I had these really long sideburns. You know he had me up, yanked my sideburns, and you know, got in my face and was, you know, a little rough with me.
Thom: ****, I tell you what, you know, I'm sorry all that happened to you and and I don't know anything about what you're talking about and I'm sorry that happened but we have a lot of people that want to talk about baseball here tonight and so if you want to call back and talk about baseball, that's great. :lol:

The next caller said, "There's a Dodgers fan for you." He asked Thom what he thought about the division this year since he's a Cards fan. He added anyone who thinks Bob is out of place by setting a budget and sticking to it isn't paying attention to our economy now. He said Bill DeWitt in StL is sticking to a similar budget and isn't going to break the bank. Thom said he has a good point and said that a lot of companies are going through hard times. He said the Reds had a budget before the economy hit the skids and they are staying with it and not cutting it. He said people overreacted last week when it was said that the Reds weren't going to go out and spend $7-10M on a RH hitting LFer. He said he was stunned at the reaction. (God, it wasn't as much that as it was Bob speaking out of both sides of his mouth. He hires Wayne to build through the farm system then when they don't win he fires him and says that the losing stops now. Now he says that was taking out of context and then he says they will win this year. It's be nice if Bob could make up his mind.) Thom said that on paper the Reds are the most improved team in the division besides the Cubs.

After commercial, the next caller asked what to expect from the #5 spot in the rotation and what to expect from Jay Bruce - an explosion to stardom or a slower ride. Thom said that some guys burst on the scene and never slow down like Pujols. But then there's a guy like Troy Tulowitski with the Rockies who got hurt in ST and got off to a slow start and by th time July rolled around he was hitting .210. He doesn't think that will happen to Jay but to expect him to be a 35 HR 110 RBI guy is a little too much. As for the 5th starter, Thom said the Reds are still high on Homer and emphasized that if he were still in college, he'd be a senior. (and if I were a frog, I wouldn't hit my butt every time I jumped.) He mentioned the usual suspects of Owings, Thompson, Ramirez, Masset and Maloney. He thinks the 5th starter could be a pleasant surprise.

The next caller said he was concerned about the lack of a LH starter. Thom said he doesn't think that's a big deal and the Angels have not had a LH in the bullpen that has been consistent. Scioscia said that he'd rather have a really good RH pitching to a LH hitter than a mediocre lefty.The caller asked besides Maloney, who do the Reds have for a LH starter. Thom said they have a minor leaguer named Viola but he's projected as more of a reliever than a starter.

The next caller said that he's happy with what the Reds have done and they are a year away no matter what they did this year. He gives Bob a lot of credit for what he's done and if he were Bob he'd be sweating bullets now. Thom repeated that the Reds have not cut the budget and ave brought on some nice pieces. He said he wasn't around when Milton was signed but said that was one of the laughing stock moves in baseball. If the Reds went out and overpaid for someone not named Manny or Burrell at 3 years and $24M people would be whining about it if he didn't produce and he's blocking Yonder or someone else. (Of course a lot of people whined about the LF last year who did produce.) Thom emphasized that the projected Opening Day lineup has 5 RH hitters in it and 4 of them have hit 20 or more HRs at least once. (Oh, but I thought HRs were overrated and the Reds were going to do it with speed and defense this year? My head hurts.)

After commercial, the next caller asked if Dickerson and Gomes didn't work out in ST, would the Reds go after Jim Edmonds and add a million or 2 to the payroll. (I wonder if that was Grande disguising his voice?) Thom said that if the Reds got off to a fast start, he could see them doing something like that. The caller asked who the better LFer would be, Votto or Yonder. Thom said Votto without a doubt and he's a far better athlete than Yonder.

The next caller asked if Javy has been picked up by any other team yet. (It wasn't me, I swear.) Thom said no one has signed them yet. The caller asked if they were going to carry 2 catchers this year. Thom said probably but if Castillo makes the team he could be considered the 3rd catcher. The caller said he was concerned that Tavaras would be another Patterson. (On my mother's life, it wasn't me.) Thom said he wouldn't. He didn't like his stats from last year but this was something they had to do and we'll see if it plays out and works out. (They had to do that? Did someone put a gun to Walt's head?)

After commercial the next caller asked about the new ST complex in AZ. Thom said Goodyear is about 11 miles west of Phoenix and CLE is opening it up this year. The caller said he's going to miss Sarasota and Thom said he would too. He said that's a great place to have ST and surprisingly they don't have another team in there. He said the Reds bent over backwards to stay there.

Thom wrapped up the show congratulating Sean Casey on his retirement and new gig with the MLB network.

This endeth the Reds Hot Stove League show report for 1-27-09. So let it be written. So let it be done.

Blimpie
01-28-2009, 05:43 PM
You da man, Chip...

Raisor
01-28-2009, 05:51 PM
Chip,

Wouldn't it be easier to just take a hammer and whack yourself in the groin with it 20 times a week?

*BaseClogger*
01-28-2009, 06:54 PM
I thought for Brennaman standards Thom was pretty rational. I'll get on them if they aren't prepared but Thom did a good job answering every question, especially the one about minor league lefties and knowing who Viola is...

corkedbat
01-28-2009, 07:32 PM
Taveras will have less ground to cover in the GAB than Coors, so it probably gives him more time to recover from bad reads. I would espect him to be slightly improved defensively.

*BaseClogger*
01-28-2009, 08:58 PM
Taveras will have less ground to cover in the GAB than Coors, so it probably gives him more time to recover from bad reads. I would espect him to be slightly improved defensively.

I think it works the opposite way...

RedsManRick
01-28-2009, 09:18 PM
I think it works the opposite way...

That was my thought. Less time for the him to make up for a bad break with raw speed.

corkedbat
01-28-2009, 09:22 PM
That was my thought. Less time for the him to make up for a bad break with raw speed.

You know, I started thinking about that myself after I typed it. :D

BCubb2003
01-28-2009, 10:11 PM
But it also means less room to go in the wrong direction, or something.

Razor Shines
01-29-2009, 01:22 AM
But it also means less room to go in the wrong direction, or something.

It also means fewer balls he'll have to worry about when he does make a mistake. Like if he takes two steps in and the ball hits the batter's eye, it doesn't really matter.

WVRedsFan
01-29-2009, 02:18 AM
With all this debate about Brother Willy, you have to wonder how well he'll have to do to be accepted by our RZ faithful. I watched him this year and he swings at a lot of bad balls, so that explains the poor OBP, but I also noticed his blazing speed. If Corey Patterson had hit, say .270 and OBP'd about .320, would he have been accepted? I don't know. It was almost Willy was Patterson with a better on base percentage and average. Food for thought. He certainly isn't what I wanted for a center fielder, but I have to say he is an improvement over Patterson, Freel, and any number of others. Not that is enough to please me.

If he does that (~.270 and ~.320) and steals, say 40 bases, can we say he was an improvement? My guess is not, but the bigger question is whether or not he'll be enought to make the Reds compete for the NL Central. No. That's the bottom line unless you just want to win 81 games, which seems to be the mode we're in. Unfortunately.

Big Klu
01-29-2009, 03:43 AM
With all this debate about Brother Willy, you have to wonder how well he'll have to do to be accepted by our RZ faithful. I watched him this year and he swings at a lot of bad balls, so that explains the poor OBP, but I also noticed his blazing speed. If Corey Patterson had hit, say .270 and OBP'd about .320, would he have been accepted? I don't know. It was almost Willy was Patterson with a better on base percentage and average. Food for thought. He certainly isn't what I wanted for a center fielder, but I have to say he is an improvement over Patterson, Freel, and any number of others. Not that is enough to please me.

If he does that (~.270 and ~.320) and steals, say 40 bases, can we say he was an improvement? My guess is not, but the bigger question is whether or not he'll be enought to make the Reds compete for the NL Central. No. That's the bottom line unless you just want to win 81 games, which seems to be the mode we're in. Unfortunately.

There is nothing he can do to be accepted, WV. RedsZone has already condemned him.

Even if he were to magically become a player that he has never been before, I think that the majority of RZ have already made up their minds, and would never admit that the miracle took place.

Raisor
01-29-2009, 06:39 AM
There is nothing he can do to be accepted, WV. RedsZone has already condemned him.

Even if he were to magically become a player that he has never been before, I think that the majority of RZ have already made up their minds, and would never admit that the miracle took place.

oh come on.

We all do actually want him to do well.

Most of us just don't believe that it's going to happen.

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about that.

Highlifeman21
01-29-2009, 06:53 AM
oh come on.

We all do actually want him to do well.

Most of us just don't believe that it's going to happen.

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about that.

Precisely how I feel about Taveras, Bailey & Stubbs

kpresidente
01-29-2009, 07:48 AM
The drunk caller sounds like the Joe Beimel guy.

Tony Cloninger
01-29-2009, 08:12 AM
So if Willy starts doing well.....how many months is it going to take before people enjoy it...or stop posting on about how he will revert to what he is. How many times are we going to hear how it's not going to last....just like we heard with Hairston last year. Some people were never able to enjoy what he gave beacuse they were so busy harping on what he was going to end up as.

Sure...we all have good intentions...to want him to do well...but as soon as he has an 0-10 or 1-12 streak...the posts of, I hate WT...Sit him down...Move him down...during game threads..is going to lead to a ban on game threads.

lollipopcurve
01-29-2009, 09:07 AM
So if Willy starts doing well.....how many months is it going to take before people enjoy it...or stop posting on about how he will revert to what he is. How many times are we going to hear how it's not going to last....just like we heard with Hairston last year. Some people were never able to enjoy what he gave beacuse they were so busy harping on what he was going to end up as.

Sure...we all have good intentions...to want him to do well...but as soon as he has an 0-10 or 1-12 streak...the posts of, I hate WT...Sit him down...Move him down...during game threads..is going to lead to a ban on game threads.

So, so true. Visit the game thread at your peril!

nate
01-29-2009, 09:35 AM
So if Willy starts doing well.....how many months is it going to take before people enjoy it...

I don't know who the "people" you're referring to are but for me, none. I'll enjoy it for what it is.


or stop posting on about how he will revert to what he is.

What is an acceptable amount of time to give and what performance level should he sustain in that timeframe?


How many times are we going to hear how it's not going to last...

In all likelihood, more times than it's actually said.


.just like we heard with Hairston last year. Some people were never able to enjoy what he gave beacuse they were so busy harping on what he was going to end up as.

You're presenting a false argument.


Sure...we all have good intentions...to want him to do well...but as soon as he has an 0-10 or 1-12 streak...the posts of, I hate WT...Sit him down...Move him down...during game threads..is going to lead to a ban on game threads.

I think streaks like that are part of any ballplayer's season. Just like an 11-15 streak isn't indicative of sudden "getting it." Quite honestly, it will take at the bare minimum, half the season to evaluate whether we're getting career Willy, Willy 2k7 or Willy 2k8.

As of this moment, I'd bet on career Willy.

BRM
01-29-2009, 09:38 AM
I guess we aren't supposed to criticize FO moves anymore, or try to predict what a player will do in the upcoming season. We're just "haters" if we do.

And to the point a few posts up, if WT goes .270/.320, I'd be happy with it. I still wouldn't want him leading off with that OBP though. That line screams #8 hitter to me. For him to truly be a good leadoff hitter and make the Zoners happy, he'll need to OBP .360+. I don't think he'll accomplish that but that's what it will take considering The Dusty will be batting him lead off come hell or high water.

Big Klu
01-29-2009, 12:08 PM
oh come on.

We all do actually want him to do well.

Most of us just don't believe that it's going to happen.

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about that.

I understand it perfectly. I don't have high expectations for Taveras, either. But I guess I am a little more optimistic by nature than a lot of people around here, and I get frustrated by all the pessimism. At this time of the year, I always have hope.




I guess we aren't supposed to criticize FO moves anymore, or try to predict what a player will do in the upcoming season. We're just "haters" if we do.

And to the point a few posts up, if WT goes .270/.320, I'd be happy with it. I still wouldn't want him leading off with that OBP though. That line screams #8 hitter to me. For him to truly be a good leadoff hitter and make the Zoners happy, he'll need to OBP .360+. I don't think he'll accomplish that but that's what it will take considering The Dusty will be batting him lead off come hell or high water.

Nobody (well, at least not I) is saying that you can't be critical of the front office, or that you are a "hater" (I can't stand that term). However, I also know what happens to RedsZone whipping boys around here.

Raisor
01-29-2009, 12:44 PM
I understand it perfectly. I don't have high expectations for Taveras, either. But I guess I am a little more optimistic by nature than a lot of people around here, and I get frustrated by all the pessimism. At this time of the year, I always have hope.







I'm not sure how people can be optimistic with this club. No playoff appearances since 95. Coming off a a 74 win season where the big additions are Willy Taveras and Arthur Rhodes.

If they somehow contend, I will be thrilled. I will jump and sing and do a little dance. But when people complain about the pessimism all I can ask is what team they've been watching?

BRM
01-29-2009, 12:46 PM
I understand it perfectly. I don't have high expectations for Taveras, either. But I guess I am a little more optimistic by nature than a lot of people around here, and I get frustrated by all the pessimism. At this time of the year, I always have hope.

That's where the issues typically are. You view it as pessimism. I view it as reasonable projections based on past performance. There is a large difference IMO.



Nobody (well, at least not I) is saying that you can't be critical of the front office, or that you are a "hater" (I can't stand that term). However, I also know what happens to RedsZone whipping boys around here.

I agree on the whipping boys sentiment. It can get out of hand at times once the season starts.

*BaseClogger*
01-29-2009, 02:05 PM
If Patterson would have hit .270/.320 I think most posters would have been thrilled because he plays great defense and can hit the ball out of the infield. In fact, a lot of posters were okay with the Patterson signing. However, with Taveras, he was given a big contract up front and was hailed as "the guy." Dusty has appointed him as the leadoff hitter and as can reasonably be expected Willy's expectations have been risen. Considering Taveras has no power and is an average fielder, if he doesn't have a OBP of .350 I'm going to be upset, because that is my target for a leadoff hitter.

The other question: how deep into the season before I am a believer? Well, Hairston was deemed a fluke because he tallied less than 300 PAs. I think after Taveras has about 450 PAs I will accept him for what he is...

mth123
01-30-2009, 04:51 AM
I'm one of Willie's biggest bashers. I think he was an awful choice. When I post, its not because I hate Willie. Its because I'm dissatisfied with an organization that had the foundation for making a move up the standings and needed to make a couple moves to solidify itself. Bring in a young SS that can pick it with some offensive potential (will be needed anyway whether Gonzalez comes back or not) and get a moderately decent offensive stopgap that can play a corner position. It could have been a 3B a 1B or an OF.

Instead it chose to rely on a gimpy Gonzalez and a bunch of completely inadequate back-ups and sign Willy T. This team could have challenged for 90 wins with a couple of good moves or positioned itself for a long run of contention when Alonso and a couple others arrive. Instead, it chose the Willy and Gonzo route and now I think it will struggle to win 70 games, still has no long term answer at SS and is doing nothing to sort out the corner IF glut that is on the horizon. IMO, nothing they have done helps 2009 or the long term (and if the left side of the IF is as bad as last year, the young pitching foundation could be way over-taxed and there goes the foundation for what could be a decade of contention in Cincinnati).

If the team can win 85 to 90 games, I'll admit I was wrong. I think its more likely that I'll win the lottery - twice.

Ron Madden
01-30-2009, 06:20 AM
I try to be optimistic, I really do, but the horrible decisions this organization makes year after year makes it almost impossible.

:(

Ltlabner
01-30-2009, 06:35 AM
To me optimism implies a positive outlook based on some reasonable facts or set of circumstances.

OTOH, a positive outlook based on unreasonable facts or set of circumstances is merely hope and wishful thinking.

For example, a team comprised of entirely of young Joey Vottos, Jay Bruces, Edison Volquezs and Johny Cuetos is reason for optimism. They could all explode into monster/very solid players and propel the team to great heights. Then again, they could all have big sophomore slumps and implode. In that situation, while the outcome isn't clear and could be bad, it's reasonable to have optimism.

If, however, your team is relying on all the youngsters making big leaps forward, the three gimpy guys at SS not being horrible/on the DL, your crappy CF to not suck in his 500 leadoff PA's, several of your non-star players to have career years, your pitching staff to stay healthy and turn in 5 cy young performances, your highly volatile bull-pen to not self-immolate and all your opponents to fall apart to merely have a chance to sniff at contention.......?

We'll, that's not optimism, that's wishful thinking for unicorns and rainbows. Nothing wrong with that necessarily, but it's not very realistic and subjects you to big letdowns when the team is out of it by June.

There's little reason for optimism with this team as currently constructed. There's a super-tanker sized room for wishful thinking, however.

lollipopcurve
01-30-2009, 07:17 AM
A baseball fan can always be optimistic or pessimistic. It depends on what you want to focus on.

Unassisted
01-30-2009, 10:37 AM
Thanks for the great report, Chip. Your reports are so much better than listening to this on a podcast would be! :D

WebScorpion
01-30-2009, 11:16 AM
If, however, your team is relying on all the youngsters making big leaps forward, the three gimpy guys at SS not being horrible/on the DL, your crappy CF to not suck in his 500 leadoff PA's, several of your non-star players to have career years, your pitching staff to stay healthy and turn in 5 cy young performances, your highly volatile bull-pen to not self-immolate and all your opponents to fall apart to merely have a chance to sniff at contention.......?

What do we call a negative outlook based on partial facts, opinions, and exaggerated circumstances?

That's Cynicism. In fact, a direct opposite of FANatacism...are you getting my point yet? To be a true sports fan(atic), you must exhibit an uncritical zeal for your team. Otherwise, you are a sports cynic, or critic if you prefer.

The numbers may indicate a high probability that the team will lose many games, but since the future is uncertain, a fan concentrates on the possibility that the team will exceed expectations, however small that chance may be. It's an almost fanatical obsession with a team's success that gives FANs their moniker, not a fanatical obsession with the team's failure. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-fc/twocents.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

BuckeyeRedleg
01-30-2009, 11:18 AM
I guess I'd rather be called a Reds "follower" then.

Fan, follower. I'm not sure it matters, since it's obvious I and many others care just as much as the common "fan".

dfs
01-30-2009, 11:24 AM
What do we call a negative outlook based on partial facts, opinions, and exaggerated circumstances?

That's Cynicism. In fact, a direct opposite of FANatacism...are you getting my point yet? To be a true sports fan(atic), you must exhibit an uncritical zeal for your team. Otherwise, you are a sports cynic, or critic if you prefer.

The numbers may indicate a high probability that the team will lose many games, but since the future is uncertain, a fan concentrates on the possibility that the team will exceed expectations, however small that chance may be. It's an almost fanatical obsession with a team's success that gives FANs their moniker, not a fanatical obsession with the team's failure. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-fc/twocents.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)
It's an interesting take, but one that I think rings truly hollow.

Fans are fanatical in their interest (or following) of their team. Not always their support.

Who was it that wore paper bags over there heads in the superdome in the early 80's....They were Ain'ts fans, or more properly Saints fans making a statement about the results the team was showing on the field. It wasn't that they believed what management was slinging, it was that they supported the team best by showing their embaressment with the product.

In that case they acted both as agents of change AND as fans of the organization.

Likewise the FireBobBoone.com movement closer to home. They showed their fanatical interest in the organization by suggesting a path of change.

Loud, aggressive jeering fans have been a staple of the game since the american league started selling beer and playing on Sundays.

Highlifeman21
01-30-2009, 11:44 AM
A baseball fan can always be optimistic or pessimistic. It depends on what you want to focus on.

Can a baseball fan always be realistic?

WebScorpion
01-30-2009, 12:23 PM
Can a baseball fan always be realistic?
Reality is based on perception, so what is 'real' for one person, may be patently false to another. I would suggest that BOTH pessimists and optimists are realists...they just perceive things differently. I hope you'll excuse my straying so far from the original thread subject...it is the off-season. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-fc/dunno.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

Ltlabner
01-30-2009, 12:32 PM
Oh joy. If you point out the realism of the Reds situation your 'fandom' is in question. Thats a chestnut.

I am a fan of the game of baseball. I am optiimistic that there will be interesting stories and great baseball moments this season. I look forward to hearing the first ST game. I am positive I'll have some good times at the ballpark. I am excited to hear the first crack of the bat.

The big question will be how much time I spend seeing if the Reds will be any part of that.

Ultimatly the Reds are offering a product for my consumption. As a consumer with limited time and cashola I have to choose to buy there product. They've given me very little reason to chose them in 2009. In fact they've done things to drive me away.

Argue over semantics all you want. The reality is I want to give them my money. They don't seem to interested in taking it.

WebScorpion
01-30-2009, 12:33 PM
Fans are fanatical in their interest (or following) of their team. Not always their support.


I completely agree. I just thought it was interesting that fanaticism and cynicism are considered opposites, while many fans can be cynical about their teams. It's because fandom, while it is derived from the word, is not the same as fanaticism. I'm reeeeeally ready for Spring Training to begin. :D

WMR
01-30-2009, 12:54 PM
A baseball fan can always be optimistic or pessimistic. It depends on what you want to focus on.

Become satisfied with losing and a substandard product?

If those were my standards then I guess I could be more optimistic about the Reds.

WMR
01-30-2009, 12:56 PM
Oh joy. If you point out the realism of the Reds situation your 'fandom' is in question. Thats a chestnut.

I am a fan of the game of baseball. I am optiimistic that there will be interesting stories and great baseball moments this season. I look forward to hearing the first ST game. I am positive I'll have some good times at the ballpark. I am excited to hear the first crack of the bat.

The big question will be how much time I spend seeing if the Reds will be any part of that.

Ultimatly the Reds are offering a product for my consumption. As a consumer with limited time and cashola I have to choose to buy there product. They've given me very little reason to chose them in 2009. In fact they've done things to drive me away.

Argue over semantics all you want. The reality is I want to give them my money. They don't seem to interested in taking it.

'Zactly! :thumbup:

WebScorpion
01-30-2009, 01:00 PM
Oh joy. If you point out the realism of the Reds situation your 'fandom' is in question. Thats a chestnut.

Oh, I don't question the fandom of somebody talking baseball in the middle of Super Bowl week...that'd be insane. ;)

I'm still hopeful that Jay Bruce, Joey Votto, Ed Volquez, Brandon Phillips, and the other players with untapped potential can improve enough to make up for any deficiencies in the rest of the team. Also, I hope that Walt Jocketty had some scouting information I'm not privvy to, which indicated Willy Taveras is primed to become the next Rickey Henderson, or at least a Bake McBride. Just as much as any year, I believe this team can have a winning season if many things fall right. In 2001, I thought they would be unstoppable; They finshed with a winning record and I was disappointed. In 2006, I thought they would suck worse than any year in recent history (worse than this year); They finshed with a losing record, but I was pleasantly surprised. Go figure! Many seasons, I've thought the team was beaten before it started, but history has taught me that the final result is rarely what you project it to be at this time. There is always hope, and I choose to watch the players wearing the wisbone C on their uniform, hoping they'll do well, and enjoying every minute I can. It doesn't mean I can't see the inadequecies pointed out here, I just choose to concentrate on other things. I have neither the time nor the energy to join the quixotic endeavor to change the way the Reds are run by pointing out all of managements mistakes. I look forward to raising a beer with you to every Reds victory this season, however few they may be. :beerme:

jojo
01-30-2009, 01:17 PM
The numbers may indicate a high probability that the team will lose many games, but since the future is uncertain, a fan concentrates on the possibility that the team will exceed expectations, however small that chance may be. It's an almost fanatical obsession with a team's success that gives FANs their moniker, not a fanatical obsession with the team's failure. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-fc/twocents.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

Maybe it's semantics, maybe it's not. But, IMHO the true definition of a fan is that he/she wants the best for their team and fervently roots for that to come to pass. This love can be irrational at times as has been the case with the Reds of this last, lost decade-certainly the Reds have done little consistently right to make a person grow a love for them stemming from admiration of the organisation's actions/guiding philosophies.

That said possessing an irrational love doesn't mean a fan has to be irrational about their team's actions and related prospects for success. It certainly doesn't mean that a person has to view/evaluate what the team does through a "fandom" filter that tempers their interpretation.

In fact, I'd suggest that fans still hanging around-albeit though many have become "cynical/critical"-epitomize the very definition of "fandom" given the irrational nature of the loyalty being displayed.

lollipopcurve
01-30-2009, 01:34 PM
Maybe it's semantics, maybe it's not. But, IMHO the true definition of a fan is that he/she wants the best for their team and fervently roots for that to come to pass. This love can be irrational at times as has been the case with the Reds of this last, lost decade-certainly the Reds have done little consistently right to make a person grow a love for them stemming from admiration of the organisation's actions/guiding philosophies.

That said possessing an irrational love doesn't mean a fan has to be irrational about their team's actions and related prospects for success. It certainly doesn't mean that a person has to view/evaluate what the team does through a "fandom" filter that tempers their interpretation.

In fact, I'd suggest that fans still hanging around-albeit though many have become "cynical/critical"-epitomize the very definition of "fandom" given the irrational nature of the loyalty being displayed.

Well put.

lollipopcurve
01-30-2009, 01:35 PM
Become satisfied with losing and a substandard product?

If those were my standards then I guess I could be more optimistic about the Reds.

The product is much more than the won-loss record for me.

lollipopcurve
01-30-2009, 01:39 PM
But, IMHO the true definition of a fan is that he/she wants the best for their team and fervently roots for that to come to pass.

Let us not forget the role of forgiveness.

BuckeyeRedleg
01-30-2009, 01:43 PM
The product is much more than the won-loss record for me.

To each his own.

When I'm at the game, I'm a a fan. When I'm discussing the off-season on an internet message board, I'm less a fan and more of a follower of the organization that controls the guys that wear the uniforms of the team that plays in Cincinnati.

So during the off-season, as a follower of the guys that wear the Reds uniforms that play in Cincinnati, my goal is that the guys that wear the Reds uniforms that play in Cincinnati don't suck anymore. However, the organization that controls what guys wear the Reds uniforms that play in Cincinnati has shown nothing to me that would suggest that I give them the benefit of the doubt like a common "fan" would.

Maybe someday, once there is evidence that the era of incompetence is over, I can settle down back into the jolly "fan" category year round and not just while I'm at the game.

Roy Tucker
01-30-2009, 01:45 PM
As a fan, I have my hopes and I have my expectations.

My hopes are usually emotional and somewhat lofty and unrealistic. My expectations are usually derived from analysis in the cold light of day.

I try to keep the 2 balanced to keep my fandom going. It keeps me out of bars.

*BaseClogger*
01-30-2009, 02:00 PM
I think we need Lost Decade t-shirts:

http://www.zazzle.com/rlv/isapi/designall.dll?action=realview&pdt=shirt&id=9D94475E-EAD0-4667-9BFB-B74F487278DA&style=basic_tshirt&color=white&size=a_l&context=mfong&view=front&max_dim=400&bg=ffffff&drawareaboundingbox=true&drawsafearea=true&square_it=true&draw_relative_size=true&rvtype=product&view_auto=1.4&rev=1233339961429685_front_horz_72

Chip R
01-30-2009, 02:20 PM
I think we need Lost Decade t-shirts:

http://www.zazzle.com/rlv/isapi/designall.dll?action=realview&pdt=shirt&id=9D94475E-EAD0-4667-9BFB-B74F487278DA&style=basic_tshirt&color=white&size=a_l&context=mfong&view=front&max_dim=400&bg=ffffff&drawareaboundingbox=true&drawsafearea=true&square_it=true&draw_relative_size=true&rvtype=product&view_auto=1.4&rev=1233339961429685_front_horz_72


Get Jen on the job, Roy. ;)

*BaseClogger*
01-30-2009, 02:22 PM
Get Jen on the job, Roy. ;)

:lol:

Agreed. Look at my design...