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Will M
01-29-2009, 11:43 AM
Reds looking for bench help

The Reds previously said they were done making moves because of being at their payroll limit. But they might not be finished after all.

Bench depth is still a need and a source told MLB.com that the Reds are interested in veteran outfielder Luis Gonzalez. In recent weeks, Gonzalez and his agent also made strong overtures that he would like to play for Cincinnati.

"We're still looking to improve our bench and find the right guys. He's a guy we like," Reds general manager Walt Jocketty said when asked about Gonzalez. "We're exploring every option and if the right fit comes around, we'll take a look at it."

-- Mark Sheldon

Tommyjohn25
01-29-2009, 11:53 AM
If he is obtained for a BENCH role only, I have no problem with it.

camisadelgolf
01-29-2009, 11:53 AM
I wouldn't be opposed to a Gonzalez/Gomes platoon. Obviously, I had my sights set higher at the beginning of the off season, but you could do worse, I guess. In GABP, he could probably hit against right-handers pretty well.

westofyou
01-29-2009, 11:53 AM
Put a fork in him, he's a diminished commodity.

lollipopcurve
01-29-2009, 11:54 AM
I like it. Depth and competition are good.

RedLegSuperStar
01-29-2009, 11:56 AM
Add Abreu and you have an outfield that has Abreu in LF, Taveras/Dickerson in CF, and Bruce in RF and Gomes as a bench bat. The team says they have money and just don't want to waste it on crap.. Here is a proven run producing bat that is willing to take a 1 year deal.. No brainer!

lollipopcurve
01-29-2009, 11:57 AM
In recent weeks, Gonzalez and his agent also made strong overtures that he would like to play for Cincinnati.

I think it's often overlooked how much the free agents themselves determine where they will end up.

Homer Bailey
01-29-2009, 11:57 AM
Dusty would bat him in the three hole.

Gonzo + Dusty= Pass.

RedsManRick
01-29-2009, 12:03 PM
Jeff Conine, Round 2.

We do not need to spend more than the major league minimum on a 41 year old LF who plays mediocre defense and hit .261/.336/.413 last year.

C
1. Hernandez
2. Hannigan

1B
3. Votto

2B
4. Phillips

SS
5. Gonzalez

3B
6. Encarnacion

UTIL
7. Keppinger
8. Hairston

RF
9. Bruce

CF
10. Taveras

LF
11. Dickerson
12. Gomes

Assuming we carry 12 pitchers, which we will, that leaves one spot left. We don't need to spend money on a old, mediocre OF with no upside. Just add Danny Richar and make Hairston your full-time extra OF.

lollipopcurve
01-29-2009, 12:03 PM
Dusty would bat him in the three hole.

Gonzo + Dusty= Pass.

Definitely a concern. I do think pushing Dickerson is a good idea.

corkedbat
01-29-2009, 12:07 PM
They're still not looking for help, they're just dumpster diving.

BRM
01-29-2009, 12:17 PM
They're still not looking for help, they're just dumpster diving.

Same old, same old.

As Ltlabner so eloquently calls it....The Great Punt of 2009.

Kc61
01-29-2009, 12:18 PM
At this point, given the obvious emphasis on future years, the decision not to spend for a major hitter this off-season, the need for a lefty bat off the bench, the apparent decision to give Dickerson playing time as a starter against righties, I would favor a one-year signing of Gonzalez for the bench.

This would cement a Dickerson/Gomes platoon in left field to start the season. It would provide a good veteran bench bat from the left side and some insurance in case of injury to a corner outfielder.

The outfield would be -- Dickerson, Taveras, Bruce most nights. Gomes, Taveras, Bruce against lefties.

Gonzalez would pinch hit and fill in. I think he fits well.

BRM
01-29-2009, 12:22 PM
This would cement a Dickerson/Gomes platoon in left field to start the season. It would provide a good veteran bench bat from the left side and some insurance in case of injury to a corner outfielder.

I don't think it cements any such thing. A decent spring from Gonzalez and he's likely the starter. I'm still not convinced the Reds want Dickerson to be getting the bulk of the time in LF. Maybe I'm crazy but I just have that vibe.

Unassisted
01-29-2009, 12:24 PM
They're still not looking for help, they're just dumpster diving.
That's because the budget's maxed out. All the Reds can afford now is scraps.

nate
01-29-2009, 12:24 PM
I'd strengthen the bench by getting a good contact hitter, a speedy pinch runner type who plays decent outfield D, a versatile utility man coming off a career year and a slick fielding young SS.

Oh, wait...

nate
01-29-2009, 12:24 PM
That's because the budget's maxed out. All the Reds can afford now is scraps.

minus s

Kc61
01-29-2009, 12:26 PM
I don't think it cements any such thing. A decent spring from Gonzalez and he's likely the starter. I'm still not convinced the Reds want Dickerson to be getting the bulk of the time in LF. Maybe I'm crazy but I just have that vibe.

You could be right, but I doubt it. Walt has talked about cementing the bench for his final moves. I think they've settled on Dickerson as the left handed platoon guy.

Look, the Reds have no lefty hitter off the bench. They need one. Whomever they acquire, people will (with good reason) be suspicious that the guy will wind up as a veteran starter, sending Dickerson to the bench.

It could happen, but I'm pretty confident Dickerson will get the first shot out there. They want a speedy outfield, Gonzalez doesn't fit for that.

The question is whether Gonzalez will agree to have that bench role. Whether he will insist on a lot of playing time. Given the market, he'll probably take what he can get.

lollipopcurve
01-29-2009, 12:30 PM
I don't think it cements any such thing. A decent spring from Gonzalez and he's likely the starter. I'm still not convinced the Reds want Dickerson to be getting the bulk of the time in LF. Maybe I'm crazy but I just have that vibe.

Baker has expressed concern about Dickerson's durability. He's had a number of leg injuries, and more than one surgery, I think.

You'd have to hope Gonzalez would embrace the role of mentoring Votto and Bruce -- he's been around, obviously, and must know pitchers extremely well.

Looking through his numbers from last year, it appears he did not thrive as a pinch hitter.... in fact, he was pretty dreadful. If they sign him, I'll be curious to hear how the team -- and Gonzalez himself -- see his role.

BRM
01-29-2009, 12:32 PM
You could be right, but I doubt it. Walt has talked about cementing the bench for his final moves. I think they've settled on Dickerson as the left handed platoon guy.

Look, the Reds have no lefty hitter off the bench. They need one. Whomever they acquire, people will (with good reason) be suspicious that the guy will wind up as a veteran starter, sending Dickerson to the bench.

It could happen, but I'm pretty confident Dickerson will get the first shot out there. They want a speedy outfield, Gonzalez doesn't fit for that.

The question is whether Gonzalez will agree to have that bench role. Whether he will insist on a lot of playing time. Given the market, he'll probably take what he can get.

I hope you're right, Kc. If Gonzalez is coming in to fill the former Jacob Cruz role, I'm fine with it.

On the point of Gonzalez not fitting into the Reds "speedy outfield", neither does Gomes. Maybe they aren't quite as concerned about speed in LF.

corkedbat
01-29-2009, 12:43 PM
I hope you're right, Kc. If Gonzalez is coming in to fill the former Jacob Cruz role, I'm fine with it.

On the point of Gonzalez not fitting into the Reds "speedy outfield", neither does Gomes. Maybe they aren't quite as concerned about speed in LF.

People! Have we forgotton the return of Norris Hopper!?!?!

But then, I guess he doesn't count because he's probably the eventual regular LFer. :evil:

corkedbat
01-29-2009, 12:44 PM
nm

membengal
01-29-2009, 12:54 PM
In a vacuum, this move wouldn't be bad. On this team, it would raise a few concerns for me.

If they do it, I hope it is only because they are looking for lefty bench help. And that Gonzalez understands that on the front end. And that Dusty would as well.

Kc61
01-29-2009, 01:05 PM
I hope you're right, Kc. If Gonzalez is coming in to fill the former Jacob Cruz role, I'm fine with it.

On the point of Gonzalez not fitting into the Reds "speedy outfield", neither does Gomes. Maybe they aren't quite as concerned about speed in LF.

Gomes will only play against lefties, not that often. Also, we could see Gomes start against lefties and be replaced for defense at the drop of a hat.

Gomes hit below .200 last year, strikes out often, and isn't a highly-rated defender, so we'll see how far he gets with them this season.

Most often the outfield would be Bruce, Taveras, and Dickerson which should be pretty good defensively if Bruce can cut down the errors. Dickerson in left is a defensive luxury.

cincrazy
01-29-2009, 02:03 PM
:censored:

Bad idea. Bad idea. BAD IDEA!

If we're going to waste this season, we might as well waste it with young players with potential, and not a 41 year old washed up outfielder who has long since lost his ability to play every day.

Big Klu
01-29-2009, 02:11 PM
Jeff Conine, Round 2.

Hey! I got a foul ball off the bat of Jeff Conine a couple of years ago. :D Conine did a decent job as Scott Hatteberg's RH tag-team partner a couple of years ago, and the Reds severed ties with him at the right time, too.



That's because the budget's maxed out. All the Reds can afford now is scraps.


minus s

Scrap?

KronoRed
01-29-2009, 02:52 PM
This is such a bad idea it's hard to contemplate.

Just Say No

VR
01-29-2009, 03:01 PM
great move if the ban on steroids was lifted

BRM
01-29-2009, 03:04 PM
Looking through his numbers from last year, it appears he did not thrive as a pinch hitter.... in fact, he was pretty dreadful. If they sign him, I'll be curious to hear how the team -- and Gonzalez himself -- see his role.

I just looked as well. His career numbers as a PH are better but still not good.

*BaseClogger*
01-29-2009, 03:14 PM
I'd rather just keep Laynce Nix around...

flyer85
01-29-2009, 03:17 PM
If Luis Gonzalez is the answer I have no idea what the question is.

Emin3mShady07
01-29-2009, 03:19 PM
What is players that are washed up and shouldn't be playing major league baseball anymore?

Ravenlord
01-29-2009, 03:19 PM
last four years


AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K AVG OBP SLG
579 90 157 37 0 24 79 78 90 271 366 459
586 93 159 52 2 15 73 69 58 271 352 444
464 70 129 23 2 15 68 56 56 278 359 433
341 30 89 26 1 8 47 41 43 261 336 413

RedEye
01-29-2009, 03:20 PM
I'm thinking a Gomes/Gonzalez platoon is in the cards. And that means Chris Dickerson gets no playing time.

So... the team would apparently rather have a former DH and a 40 year-old patrolling LF than a late-blooming, prospect with great defense and potential for more offensive upside.

Come on, Walt. Is this really that hard?

flyer85
01-29-2009, 03:22 PM
What is players that are washed up and shouldn't be playing major league baseball anymore?

:thumbup:

Emin3mShady07
01-29-2009, 03:25 PM
last four years


AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K AVG OBP SLG
579 90 157 37 0 24 79 78 90 271 366 459
586 93 159 52 2 15 73 69 58 271 352 444
464 70 129 23 2 15 68 56 56 278 359 433
341 30 89 26 1 8 47 41 43 261 336 413

I'm fairly confident that Chris Dickerson can be on par with his last three years and play much, much better defense.

flyer85
01-29-2009, 03:29 PM
pretty sure that Gonzalez is not the missing piece to the puzzle. In that case there is no reason to waste money or ABs on him.

Ravenlord
01-29-2009, 03:32 PM
I'm fairly confident that Chris Dickerson can be on par with his last three years and play much, much better defense.

i whole heartely agree.

C Hernandez
C Hannigan
1B Votto
2B Phillips
3B Encarnacion
SS Gonzalez
IF Keppinger
LF Dickerson
CF Tavares
RF Bruce
OF Gomes
OF Gonzalez
UTL Hairston, Jr

i actually like that bench, but it's a serious and glaring problem when your bench projects to be the best part of your overall game.

Falls City Beer
01-29-2009, 03:46 PM
Put a fork in him, he's a diminished commodity.

No doubt.

Strikes Out Looking
01-29-2009, 03:51 PM
I'm fairly confident that Chris Dickerson can be on par with his last three years and play much, much better defense.

A healthy Chris Dickerson. A Chris Dickerson that spends most of his time being examined by Kremcheck the Cutter and Mark Mann rehabbing is no good to anyone.

Emin3mShady07
01-29-2009, 03:56 PM
And Chris Dickerson is more of a health risk than a 41 year old Luis Gonzalez? I wouldn't gamble on that one.

BRM
01-29-2009, 03:57 PM
And Chris Dickerson is more of a health risk than a 41 year old Luis Gonzalez? I wouldn't gamble on that one.

Maybe Gonzalez is another Young Body?

Mario-Rijo
01-29-2009, 04:18 PM
Maybe Gonzalez is another Young Body?

Per Thom, no?

BRM
01-29-2009, 04:19 PM
Per Thom, no?

We should find out if Luis has been working out with Jeff Conine this winter.

Falls City Beer
01-29-2009, 04:21 PM
Maybe Gonzalez is another Young Body?

Be cool, man. No need to bring that up. :(

BRM
01-29-2009, 05:14 PM
Don't worry folks. I'm sure he's only being looked at to provide depth.

Ltlabner
01-29-2009, 06:10 PM
Don't worry folks. I'm sure he's only being looked at to provide depth.

Obviously.

Besides, it's rather apparent that what this team really needs is a better bench.

BRM
01-29-2009, 06:18 PM
Obviously.

Besides, it's rather apparent that what this team really needs is a better bench.

It's the top priority.

OnBaseMachine
01-29-2009, 06:39 PM
No thanks. I'd rather have Laynce Nix.

alexad
01-29-2009, 07:49 PM
I would rather have a young Griffey or younger Dunn than Gonzo.

Emin3mShady07
01-29-2009, 08:25 PM
Obviously.

Besides, it's rather apparent that what this team really needs is a better bench.

In 2004 the Chicago Bulls had a better scoring bench than starting 5 and were a pretty good team, but for some reason I think that the NBA and MLB are not quite the same in this respect:rolleyes:

Maybe its just me.

Ltlabner
01-29-2009, 08:40 PM
In 2004 the Chicago Bulls had a better scoring bench than starting 5 and were a pretty good team, but for some reason I think that the NBA and MLB are not quite the same in this respect:rolleyes:

Maybe its just me.

Don't get me wrong, having a strong bench is a great offensive weapon.

But it makes little sense to target the bench for improvement when the starting group is so lacking.

Especially since the alleged need for the bench is a smoke-screen to distract from the lack of improvement on the real areas of need.

westofyou
01-29-2009, 08:48 PM
In 2004 the Chicago Bulls had a better scoring bench than starting 5 and were a pretty good team, but for some reason I think that the NBA and MLB are not quite the same in this respect:rolleyes:

Maybe its just me.

Basketball is a back and forth sport based on tempo and played on fixed sized court, it has nothing to do with baseball, or the the things that make up a baseball team.

Emin3mShady07
01-29-2009, 09:00 PM
Ok, clearly the sarcasm that I wrote (or at least intended to write) in that statement is not being detected. It was a joke, I was saying that Jockety would be a better NBA GM if upgrading the bench was all he cared about.

Ltlabner
01-29-2009, 09:01 PM
Ok, clearly the sarcasm that I wrote (or at least intended to write) in that statement is not being detected. It was a joke, I was saying that Jockety would be a better NBA GM if upgrading the bench was all he cared about.

Oh.

My bad.

Highlifeman21
01-29-2009, 11:31 PM
I like it. Depth and competition are good.

People said the same thing about Willy Taveras, except he's gonna be our everyday CF and our leadoff hitter.

If we signed Luis Gonzalez, you can bet your bottom that he'll be our everyday LF and bat 3rd.


If Luis Gonzalez was actually brought in to provide depth (which he won't) and stimulate competition (which he won't), I'd love the move, but he would just take PAs from kids in the organization that actually need them, as opposed to a washed up guy that would add that proverbial "veteran presence".

Highlifeman21
01-29-2009, 11:38 PM
I'd rather just keep Laynce Nix around...

You and me both!

Nix in 09! Nix in 09! Nix in 09!

cincrazy
01-30-2009, 09:02 AM
No thanks. I'd rather have Laynce Nix.

If that isn't a damning statement on someone else's career, I'm not sure what is :)

lollipopcurve
01-30-2009, 10:34 AM
If we signed Luis Gonzalez, you can bet your bottom that he'll be our everyday LF and bat 3rd.

I wouldn't. And he wouldn't.

Falls City Beer
01-30-2009, 12:05 PM
I wouldn't. And he wouldn't.

The likelihood of Gonzalez getting fewer than 350 PA is nil. Fulltime? Probably not. Too many? Definitely.

westofyou
01-30-2009, 12:09 PM
The likelihood of Gonzalez getting fewer than 350 PA is nil. Fulltime? Probably not. Too many? Definitely.
Yep, too many is my fear, diminished power, diminished wheels, diminished arm.

Pass

lollipopcurve
01-30-2009, 12:35 PM
The likelihood of Gonzalez getting fewer than 350 PA is nil. Fulltime? Probably not. Too many? Definitely.

350+ means Dickerson got hurt. Gonzalez can't play center and he won't play in front of Bruce.

So who do you bring in as a LH bat off the bench who can serve as insurance for Dickerson? Is Nix the guy? Would Garret Anderson accept a role off the bench? Would Edmonds? I doubt it.....

Falls City Beer
01-30-2009, 12:39 PM
350+ means Dickerson got hurt. Gonzalez can't play center and he won't play in front of Bruce.

So who do you bring in as a LH bat off the bench who can serve as insurance for Dickerson? Is Nix the guy? Would Garret Anderson accept a role off the bench? Would Edmonds? I doubt it.....

I'd give the starting job to Edmonds. Gonzalez no way.

And I believe that if Gonzalez is acquired, the platoon would be Gonzalez/Gomes. In fact, I have no doubt about that. Dickerson would have pinch hitting, supersub duties.

lollipopcurve
01-30-2009, 12:42 PM
And I believe that if Gonzalez is acquired, the platoon would be Gonzalez/Gomes. In fact, I have no doubt about that. Dickerson would have pinch hitting, supersub duties.

I see. Even though Jocketty has been quoted as saying the team is going to see what its young players will do? The talk is that they're looking for a bench player, and I take them at their word. Maybe I'm naive.

Highlifeman21
01-30-2009, 12:46 PM
I wouldn't. And he wouldn't.

Luis Gonzalez bats LH, therefore since the Reds face more RHP than they do LHP, he'd get the bulk of the PAs, and that bulk would come with him in the 3 slot in the lineup.

Falls City Beer
01-30-2009, 12:47 PM
I see. Even though Jocketty has been quoted as saying the team is going to see what its young players will do? The talk is that they're looking for a bench player, and I take them at their word. Maybe I'm naive.

If Jocketty can rein in Dusty's desire to play Gonzalez, I'd be okay, but I'm beginning to doubt he has that power. No way Dust sits a former "WORLD SERIES CHAMPION." Jocketty should know this to be the case, but maybe he doesn't.

Honestly, I think Jocketty's simply riding out this contract and will be gone at the end of the year.

edit: to be fair to Dusty, the last three or four Reds' managers have all deferred to vets in these cases too.

lollipopcurve
01-30-2009, 12:49 PM
Luis Gonzalez bats LH, therefore since the Reds face more RHP than they do LHP, he'd get the bulk of the PAs, and that bulk would come with him in the 3 slot in the lineup.

I don't think Gonzalez would be a starter, and even if he were, there's no way he dislodges Votto from the #3 spot. Votto performed well for Baker in that spot.

Falls City Beer
01-30-2009, 12:51 PM
I don't think Gonzalez would be a starter, and even if he were, there's no way he dislodges Votto from the #3 spot. Votto performed well for Baker in that spot.

I doubt Gonzalez gets etched in the three spot.

lollipopcurve
01-30-2009, 12:53 PM
If Jocketty can rein in Dusty's desire to play Gonzalez, I'd be okay, but I'm beginning to doubt he has that power. No way Dust sits a former "WORLD SERIES CHAMPION." Jocketty should know this to be the case, but maybe he doesn't.

My sense is that Baker is on board with starting Dickerson (probably in a platoon with Gomes), so long as he doesn't tank or get hurt in ST.


Honestly, I think Jocketty's simply riding out this contract and will be gone at the end of the year.

Interesting. I've wondered about this myself, but I see his move being more to team president. The big question for me is, would he fire Baker in order to hire Larussa?

redsmetz
01-30-2009, 12:56 PM
If Jocketty can rein in Dusty's desire to play Gonzalez, I'd be okay, but I'm beginning to doubt he has that power. No way Dust sits a former "WORLD SERIES CHAMPION." Jocketty should know this to be the case, but maybe he doesn't.

Honestly, I think Jocketty's simply riding out this contract and will be gone at the end of the year.

edit: to be fair to Dusty, the last three or four Reds' managers have all deferred to vets in these cases too.

Aside from batting Griffey third, I think Baker showed last season that he was willing to go with our young up and coming players. As some have noted, he's the first Reds manager to show patience with Encarnacion.

Likewise, Baker catches a bad rap because for the first five weeks, he rode the Patterson leading off pony, but after CP was sent to Louisville, he only batted lead off six times. His stay in Louisville, meant to help him get his act together, was cut short when a rash of injuries caused the Reds to recall him after a few days.

He stuck Dickerson in the line-up at year's end and played him.

I don't buy that it's a give that Baker will misuse someone like Gonzalez who is being looked at for the bench. I really don't.

Falls City Beer
01-30-2009, 12:59 PM
My sense is that Baker is on board with starting Dickerson (probably in a platoon with Gomes), so long as he doesn't tank or get hurt in ST.

Given the choice (which he currently doesn't have) I think he'd choose Gonzalez over Dickerson. Dusty hasn't given Dickerson much positive press.

But maybe not.

Ron Madden
02-02-2009, 03:12 AM
Aside from batting Griffey third, I think Baker showed last season that he was willing to go with our young up and coming players. As some have noted, he's the first Reds manager to show patience with Encarnacion.

Likewise, Baker catches a bad rap because for the first five weeks, he rode the Patterson leading off pony, but after CP was sent to Louisville, he only batted lead off six times. His stay in Louisville, meant to help him get his act together, was cut short when a rash of injuries caused the Reds to recall him after a few days.

He stuck Dickerson in the line-up at year's end and played him.

I don't buy that it's a give that Baker will misuse someone like Gonzalez who is being looked at for the bench. I really don't.


I couldn't understand why Dusty didn't play Dickerson in CF more, towards the end of last season.

Topcat
02-02-2009, 03:17 AM
time comes when a team needs to stick there neck out, the team is not going to spend. they are best pushing what they have and avoiding retreads.

Playadlc
02-02-2009, 05:36 AM
I'd give the starting job to Edmonds. Gonzalez no way.

And I believe that if Gonzalez is acquired, the platoon would be Gonzalez/Gomes. In fact, I have no doubt about that. Dickerson would have pinch hitting, supersub duties.

A platoon of Gomes/Edmonds makes a ton of sense to me.

reds44
02-02-2009, 06:35 AM
A platoon of Gomes/Edmonds makes a ton of sense to me.
No, it really doesn't. Edmonds isn't going to be the difference between the Reds making the playoffs. A Dickerson/Gomes platoon makes much more sense. If Chris is ever going to be sucessful in the majors, he is going to have his opprotunity this year.

fearofpopvol1
02-02-2009, 02:45 PM
[QUOTE=Falls City Beer;1796036]Honestly, I think Jocketty's simply riding out this contract and will be gone at the end of the year.[QUOTE]

Say hello to your new GM, Bill Bavasi!!

WebScorpion
02-03-2009, 10:57 AM
[QUOTE=Falls City Beer;1796036]Honestly, I think Jocketty's simply riding out this contract and will be gone at the end of the year.[QUOTE]

Say hello to your new GM, Bill Bavasi!!

NO WAY! Cam Bonifay is a far, far better GM...
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