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View Full Version : Super Bowl Sunday (My Own Personal Hell)



Dom Heffner
02-01-2009, 02:07 PM
Well, the Pittsburgh Steelers are about to win another Super Bowl, just miles away from where I live.

As many of you know, the dreaded Pittsburgh Steelers are the number one enemy of Dom Heffner, and my personal observations of this event must be shared to warn thousands of Redzoners from possibly feeling even an ounce of admiration for one of the worst "teams" to ever win a Super Bowl.

If even one of you utters, "Well, you have to admire/like/respect/ or any other positive synonym about this...this...ill-fated masssacre that is about to take place, you will, of course, be sentenced to watching the DVD box set of "Superstars of Dance." (Of which the worst judge on the show has an uncanny resemblance to Troy Polamalu- you know the guy, the one who sits in the upper right hand corner of the panel who gives everyone an 8 out of 10because, as he says, "Everyone has something they can improve on.")

I drove through a sea of Steelers fans near Raymond James Stadium yesterday, doors locked, hands at ten and two on the steering wheel, not trusting a single one of them. Never has there been a display of such ignorant support for a professional franchise.

These fans support a team that sports only one decal on their helmet- a decal stolen from the poor working class people this team purports to represent.

These people support a team that fields no cheerleading squad, evidence of the fact that there are no hot women that can bring themselves to support such a group of men that ignore basic grooming habits, like the cutting of their hair so it doesn't hang so low that you can't tell what the heck their name is.

These people support a team that fields no players you would ever take for your fantasy football team, unless to cover a bye week or injury caused by one of their defensive players.

These fans cheer for a team that plays its home games in a stadium where a 35 yard field goal is a dicey proposition.

Upon driving through this array of misguided working class people, I apologized to my very beautiful and very pregnant better half: I'm sorry, honey, for jeopardizing the health and safety of the two most important people in my life. You never know when one of these fans might try to emulate Hines Ward and break one of our jaws. Or spear tackle us like we were Willis McGahee. Or grab our chins and spin our ahead around like Keith Gary did to Ken Anderson, as if he were Linda Blair in the Exorcist.

Or tear our MCL, like that third string defensive lineman Kemo Vanawfulplayer did to that saint of a man, Carson Palmer.

Are they really that bad? Is what they do legal? she asked. Legal, but unethical I explained. Like prostitution in Vegas, smoking, having children out of wedlock.

These people walking around this city's Raymond James Stadium support a team that really isn't a team. It's a defense. There are no offensive stars, 1000 yard rushers, 12 TD receivers.

Mark Malone, Kordell Stewart, Todd Blackledge, Mike Tomczak, Bubby Brister, Neil O'Donnell. I'm going to let that list speak for itself.

This team- or defense, sorry- has a QB who is more drinking buddy than quarterback. He wears eye black at night, and makes more bad decisions on the field than Gary Busey on a weekend pass in Bangkok.

But it doesn't matter when you have a defense that sets you up for 30 yard scoring drives after an interception, fumble recovery, or ambulance run. Or sometimes they just go ahead and score for you, becuase all you have in your offensive playbook is a flea flicker to Hines Ward so he can do his little skip into the endzone designed to irritate anyone not named Hines Ward. It's almost as if the 6 points are secondary to that giant melon headed thing they have at WR.

And let's not kid ourselves: 13-10 games are fun- like Pedro Martinez pitching for the 1977 Seattle Mariners against a lineup of Gerald Perry's is fun in baseball.

Whoopee.

And now that Ben Roethlisberger will wear two Super Bowl rings because of what might be the two weakest opponents in Super Bowl history (three if you count the refs who handed them the first one), he will be called great, magnificient, and wonderful, even though he failed to show up for the first game- though not sure how much Ben Roethlisberger "showing up" helps a team about whom the experts say, "All the Cardinals have to do is score 20 points."

I'm not sure how I'm going to weather this game without breaking something. At least when I watch Duke win a college basketball game, I can say, "At least the Steelers didn't win today."

But tonight, it might be a drinking game (take a swig every time Hines Ward smiles- heck, I'll be drunk by kickoff), or doing something only slightly less annoying, like putting together one of those entertainment centers sold at Wal Mart.

Pray for me, Redzoners. Kurt Warner is my own personal Obi-Wan Kenobi.

My only hope.

Degenerate39
02-01-2009, 05:25 PM
When I was at work today at least 25 customers came in wearing Big Ben jerseys. I was standing there wearing my Cincinnati Bengal hoody. I loathe the Steelers and the majority the their fans.

Highlifeman21
02-01-2009, 05:38 PM
I drove through a sea of Steelers fans near Raymond James Stadium yesterday, doors locked, hands at ten and two on the steering wheel, not trusting a single one of them. Never has there been a display of such ignorant support for a professional franchise.

How many of them did you run over? Inquiring minds wanna know!

Dom Heffner
02-01-2009, 05:51 PM
How many of them did you run over? Inquiring minds wanna know!

I wanted to, believe me. I just haven't made up my mind if it's their fault or not.

And I wasn't sure if they might send Hines Ward to chop block my dog.

I simply could not forgive myself if that happened.

nate
02-01-2009, 06:25 PM
Not to distract from an excellent rant but that was the best performance of the National Anthem since Whitney Houston.

WVRed
02-01-2009, 06:46 PM
3-0 Pittsburgh. Arizona challenged a rushing TD by Roethlisberger that was overturned and the Steelers kicked a 19 yard FG.

HeatherC1212
02-01-2009, 06:49 PM
I had a feeling that TD was going to be overturned because it sure looked like Ben rolled into the endzone when his knee was down about a foot short.

Jennifer Hudson was totally SUBLIME. Wow, what a beautiful rendition of the national anthem and I'm so impressed with her poise after all she's been through lately. She was phenomenal. :)

((((Don)))) I hope you survive Steelerville tonight! :(

WVRed
02-01-2009, 06:54 PM
Might as well just hand the Steelers the Lombardi trophy. Roethlisberger is looking the opposite of how he looked against the Seahawks.

RedsBaron
02-01-2009, 06:55 PM
On the play where Ben was wrongfully first credited with a TD, a Steelers lineman illegally pulled Ben forward. That should have been a ten yard penalty and a replay of down.

HeatherC1212
02-01-2009, 07:01 PM
I have a feeling I'll be changing the channel after halftime because I'm sick of watching the Steeler players act like they just won the Superbowl, their dream woman, and an Oscar after every single play. I know football players have done this forever but it's really obnoxious tonight. :rolleyes:

remdog
02-01-2009, 07:11 PM
Dom:

That is one of the best posts I've ever read on Redszone. LMBO.

Rem

redsfanmia
02-01-2009, 07:23 PM
Excellent post Dom and one that I agree with 100%. The Steelers are by far my most hated sports franchise and I wish every year they go 0-16 while not scoring a point.

WVRed
02-01-2009, 07:31 PM
Good chance for Arizona to take the lead.

WVRed
02-01-2009, 07:34 PM
Out of curiosity, did Hines Ward ever get called for a chop block for taking out Keith Rivers?

The refs just called Edgerrin James for it.

improbus
02-01-2009, 07:40 PM
Some facts you may not have known about Steeler's fans:
1) No one in their right mind would ever live in Pittsburgh
2) Steeler's fans couldn't navigate the confusing Pittsburgh highway system and so they ended up in Ohio by accident and just stayed.
3) They believe that "Sympathy for the Devil" describes their relationship with their team.
4) They all get their HGH from the ex-Steeler team doctor.

SteelSD
02-01-2009, 07:52 PM
Oh. My. God.

RedsBaron
02-01-2009, 07:57 PM
The game is probably over. :bang::angry::(

remdog
02-01-2009, 07:59 PM
Sometimes, good things happen to bad people. :p:

Rem

SteelSD
02-01-2009, 08:02 PM
I'm opening up chat. If you're interested, feel free to join.

WVRed
02-01-2009, 08:38 PM
If the game ended right now, id say James Harrison would be your MVP.

That being said, the next week is going to be absolute purgatory.

Dom, you have nothing on me. At least people will be leaving Tampa shortly thereafter. I am right in the heart of Steel Country.

improbus
02-01-2009, 08:47 PM
The Refs are taking over.

improbus
02-01-2009, 08:57 PM
The Refs are taking over.

They are REALLY taking over the game at this point.

BTW, I've never quoted myself, good times.

remdog
02-01-2009, 09:45 PM
James Harrison just showed what a great player he is. Punched a guy when he was down.

That's why I love the Steelers.

Rem

Playadlc
02-01-2009, 09:47 PM
James Harrison can die. God I hope Arizona wins.

RBA
02-01-2009, 09:48 PM
James Harrison just showed what a great player he is. Punched a guy when he was down.

That's why I love the Steelers.

Rem

Holy crap! Arizona just took the lead.

remdog
02-01-2009, 09:49 PM
Sometimes, good things happen to bad people. :p:

Rem

And sometimes good things happen to good people!

Go Cards!

Rem

RBA
02-01-2009, 09:49 PM
Looks like a good Superbowl for a change. It has a little of everything.

Playadlc
02-01-2009, 09:49 PM
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MrCinatit
02-01-2009, 09:50 PM
Wow, this is a great game.

HeatherC1212
02-01-2009, 09:51 PM
Whoa, I just checked the score and boy did I turn off this game at the wrong time! GO CARDS!! :jump:

MrCinatit
02-01-2009, 09:54 PM
Whoa, I just checked the score and boy did I turn off this game at the wrong time! GO CARDS!! :jump:

I was "resting my eyes" when I hear Micheals going crazy about a safety or something...I thought the Steelers were walking away with it when I opened my eyes.
Wow.

RedsBaron
02-01-2009, 10:02 PM
I hate the Steelers....but that is a TD. :(

Playadlc
02-01-2009, 10:02 PM
That's a touchdown.

I think I am going to puke.

Playadlc
02-01-2009, 10:03 PM
That's a touchdown.

I think I am going to puke.

HeatherC1212
02-01-2009, 10:03 PM
:thumbdown

Playadlc
02-01-2009, 10:10 PM
That's not even worth a review???????????

deltachi8
02-01-2009, 10:11 PM
scoreboard.

another beer, barkeep.

:-)

MrCinatit
02-01-2009, 10:12 PM
That was still one of the better games I have partially slept through.

remdog
02-01-2009, 10:12 PM
What can I say? Great game but the bad guys won, there is no God. :(

Rem

Bip Roberts
02-01-2009, 10:13 PM
Wow I guess the Steelers have enough money to pay off the refs still.

Playadlc
02-01-2009, 10:13 PM
Farrior with the game winning sack when he should have been ejected.

kaldaniels
02-01-2009, 10:14 PM
Wow I guess the Steelers have enough money to pay off the refs still.

I'm a diehard Browns fan who hates the Steelers...but they warrant a tip of the hat. If you're reading Steel...enjoy.

Playadlc
02-01-2009, 10:14 PM
Seriously...can they not take the time to review that final play? It was close enough.

Bip Roberts
02-01-2009, 10:25 PM
I'm a diehard Browns fan who hates the Steelers...but they warrant a tip of the hat. If you're reading Steel...enjoy.

they warrant something but the tip they clearly already gave to the refs

deltachi8
02-01-2009, 10:29 PM
they warrant something but the tip they clearly already gave to the refs

i guess whatever team you root for doesn't pay enough then, huh?

scoreboard

Bip Roberts
02-01-2009, 10:30 PM
i guess whatever team you root for doesn't pay enough then, huh?

scoreboard

Maybe if they looked at the scoreboard they could have reviewed the play.

improbus
02-01-2009, 10:31 PM
Wow. Nothing like having your Super Bowl MVP with a Wikipedia section labeled "Legal Trouble".
A few other points about the game:
-When are they going to let go of the Joe Namath thing. He has won as many Super Bowls as Jeff Hostetler.
-It is a shame that the Refs played such a big part. They didn't destroy the game, but they were a little too proactive.
-James Harrison is a scary man.
-Is there a cooler guy on the planet than Mike Tomlin?
-Work is going to be miserable tomorrow.
-Jennifer Hudson...wow...I could usually care less about the National Anthem before sporting events (I know where I live), but she got the hairs on the back of my neck to raise.
-The difference in the game was tackling. When the Steelers had a chance to take a guy down, they did. Arizona let too many guys get away.
-How is Matt Millen working on TV?

SteelSD
02-01-2009, 10:31 PM
I'm a diehard Browns fan who hates the Steelers...but they warrant a tip of the hat. If you're reading Steel...enjoy.

Thanks, Kal. I am enjoying the aftermath, but I always felt that the Cardinals represented extremely worthy SB competition. I never took them lightly or for granted and they showed me why no one should have done that. In fact, they almost won the game in the exact way I described they could.

I also think that both Big Ben and Santonio Holmes came into their own during this game. Ben produced yet another incredibly clutch performance and Holmes was ridiculously good tonight. The Steelers already had the youngest QB to win the Super Bowl and now they have the youngest Head Coach to do the same.

I only wish that the Bengals fans on this board will one day understand the pride I feel for my favorite team. They're good fans. Even though our teams play in the same division, I do not at all like the idea that the Bengals are not respectable right now. Ditto the Browns. I enjoy that rivalry like no other. Other than the Ravens, there isn't a team I want the Steelers to beat more than Cleveland.

Very classy post, kal. Much respect, and thank you.

deltachi8
02-01-2009, 10:35 PM
Very classy interview with Ken Wiz. He is a hell of a coach who brought a team who is just above average to near greatness. I have a great deal of respect for him.

EDIT to add:

Kurt Warner also very gracious. He played a very good game and deserves a pat on the back.

SteelSD
02-01-2009, 10:39 PM
Very classy interview with Ken Wiz. He is a hell of a coach who brought a team who is just above average to near greatness. I have a great deal of respect for him.

Absolutely. It's amazing what he's done with the Arizona squad. To take them all the way to the Super Bowl is absolutely amazing. If I were any NFL team over the next few years, I'd fear that squad for sure.

Kurt Warner was also extremely classy during his post-shower interview. There's no possible way that the Cardinals were the "worst" team ever to make the big game. I'd expect them to the yearly contenders at this point.

deltachi8
02-01-2009, 10:52 PM
Kurt Warner was also extremely classy during his post-shower interview. There's no possible way that the Cardinals were the "worst" team ever to make the big game. I'd expect them to the yearly contenders at this point.

They certainly were not. What they showed is if you are a smart team with smart players who believe in what you are doing you can accomplish a bunch.

Will they be back? I think that depends on how long Kurt can play (and if he re-ups with Ariz ) and will they be able to get Leinart to be a leader. He has the tools, now can he get his team to believe in him.

This was a terrific gane. I always think that big games are defined by big time players making big time plays. The Steelers just a had one or two more of those players this year than the Cards,

SteelSD
02-01-2009, 10:52 PM
Wow. Ben thought the last TD pass to Holmes was going to be picked. Great interview on ESPN going on right now.

deltachi8
02-01-2009, 10:55 PM
OK, I have such a great feeling with my favorite team winning this.

I have felt it before with them and with Syracuse Basketball in 2003.

Now, I want to feel it again with the Reds.

deltachi8
02-01-2009, 10:55 PM
Wow. Ben thought the last TD pass to Holmes was going to be picked. Great interview on ESPN going on right now.

I honestly thought he was throwing it away. I wanted them to run a draw...shows the brainiac that I am.

Roy Tucker
02-01-2009, 11:00 PM
I hope with all the photographers in that corner of the end zone, someone got a great Dwight-Clark-Walter-Iooss-Jr. shot of Holme's catch. Should on the cover of SI if so,

macro
02-01-2009, 11:26 PM
Great post, Dom. I just copied it and emailed it to my sister, who hates the Stealers every bit as much as I do. I can relate completely.

Dom Heffner
02-01-2009, 11:47 PM
Steel, we are all happy for you, my friend. Enjoy the moment, it will be gone soon enough.

I understand the pride you feel for your favorite team. The Bengals don't have to win a Super Bowl for me to love the heck out of them.

But even if the Steelers weren't our division rivals, they would still be my very least favorite team in the entire universe because I don't like their style of football.

I don't think there is anything likable about Hines Ward, Joey Porter, Harrison- I mean, it's year after year of the same questionable hits.

Football is a physical game, but it doesn't mean you have to make unnecessary plays. The hit that Hines Ward put on Keith Rivers was one of the more unnecessary hits I've ever seen. If you want to argue it's legal, fine. But it wasn't necessary. I don't watch football for that kind of thing.

And they've done that since I was a kid, and it's why I'll never be a fan.

Anyhoo- none of that is about you. I'm thrilled for you. Just wish you had a different favorite team. :)

WMR
02-02-2009, 01:13 AM
How much did the Stealers pay those refs? WOW. :eek:

Redsfaithful
02-02-2009, 01:14 AM
That was probably one of the worst called games I've ever seen. Funny how that always seems to happen when Pittsburgh is in the Super Bowl.

The Steelers are an incredibly unlikeable team. Sure I don't like them because I'm a Bengals fan and all, but you look at the personal fouls tonight and how egregious they were, combine that with their history of playing dirty, it's just a shame they can't win with some class. But they win, which is ultimately all that matters I guess. I'm sure if they were my team I'd be willing to look the other way.

WMR
02-02-2009, 01:20 AM
Also: Could have sworn I was watching the Bungles at the end of the first half.

Caveat Emperor
02-02-2009, 01:21 AM
Hell of a game.

Roethlisberger did what great quarterbacks do -- with ~2 minutes to play, down by 3, he took the football and said "Mine." Both QBs played extremely well, which was a surprise given how well both defenses had been playing leading up to the Super Bowl.

Pittsburgh is the unquestioned class of the NFL. They play football their way, and their way has worked for the better part of 30 years.



I don't think there is anything likable about Hines Ward, Joey Porter, Harrison- I mean, it's year after year of the same questionable hits.

I don't think there's ever been a great defense, from the Purple People Eaters or the Steel Curtain of old to the Ravens or the Buccaneers of new, that hasn't been accused of dirty play to some degree. It goes with the territory -- physical play, aggressive attitudes, ballhawking / big play mentality.

They play hard, and the play tough. And, as a result, other teams play scared. It's why you see the Steelers delivering big hits instead of receiving them season after season.

WMR
02-02-2009, 01:23 AM
Did anyone else see/hear Rodney Harrison make a complete ass of himself in front of a few hundred million people during the pre-game?

MWM
02-02-2009, 01:37 AM
Oh joy, now we get to hear about how great Big Ben is because his defense has won two super bowls. This always happens with QBs. The guy is good, but he's not a great QB, and isn't anywhere near HOF caliber, yet we're already hearing that term being applied.

GAC
02-02-2009, 06:30 AM
I'm a diehard Browns fan who hates the Steelers...but they warrant a tip of the hat. If you're reading Steel...enjoy.

Bingo!

And sorry Dom.... but I have nothing but respect... and even some jealousy... for the Steeler's Rooney family and this organization. And that's what it is, in large part.... jealousy.

And I openly admit that as a Brown/Bengal fan. If what they have accomplished in Pittsburgh was being done in either Cincy or Cleveland over the years, and not perpetual losing and stinkin' up the place, the fans would all be on-board and defending their team to the death.

A tip of the hat to the Steelers for a great game. And especially to former OSU alumni Holmes.

WHAT A CATCH!!!!

GAC
02-02-2009, 06:41 AM
Oh joy, now we get to hear about how great Big Ben is because his defense has won two super bowls. This always happens with QBs. The guy is good, but he's not a great QB, and isn't anywhere near HOF caliber, yet we're already hearing that term being applied.

Great QB? Maybe not. But one cannot give all the credit for this win to the defense.

Big Ben had a heckuva first half IMO. And a SB QB rating of 93.2 (21-30 for 256 yds, and a 70% CMP%) isn't bad. No, he's not graceful, nor pretty to watch. But he is efficient. He didn't make mistakes, other then that deflected INT, and what impresses me about him is his ability to scramble, always have his eyes down field, and for the most part - make things happen. Especially in critical times when it is needed.

Holmes made a helluva catch; but does Ben get any credit for putting the ball there? Does Ben get any credit at all for engineering those critical drives when needed?

cincrazy
02-02-2009, 07:32 AM
I'm a die-hard Bengals fan, so clearly I have no love for the Steelers, but I can't believe how underrated they are as a franchise. All you ever hear about is Dungy and the Colts and Belichick and the Pats, but no franchise can't match the Steelers for consistency through the years. And Big Ben is one of the most underrated qb's in the game, IMO. He's better than most people think.

I tip my cap to you Steeler Nation. You do it often, and you do it right. I only wish my team could say the same.

Krusty
02-02-2009, 07:54 AM
Diehard Steelers fan.

One for the six-pack. Greatest Super Bowl game I witnessed. I'm so beat that I'm taking the day off from work. When you're a fan for over 35 years, the championships get sweeter with age.

Now if the Reds can get the organization on the right track and start winning championships........

deltachi8
02-02-2009, 08:33 AM
GAC- nice posts, thanks.

bucksfan2
02-02-2009, 08:38 AM
That was a great game. I only have a few complaints. The officials played a big roll in the outcome of the game. Then they failed to do their job on the last play of the game. It was odd but in the two Warner fumbles (one was over turned and the second one should have been reviewed) in the corner of the screen you could see the official looking around for someone else to make the call. He seemed very indecisive which I didn't really like. I am just shocked that in the biggest game of the year they didn't give the determining play a second look. Shame on the NFL.

Over the last few years with parity starting to become greater the Super Bowls have been great games. There are very few blow outs in the Super Bowl which is great.

RedsBaron
02-02-2009, 09:00 AM
Over the last few years with parity starting to become greater the Super Bowls have been great games. There are very few blow outs in the Super Bowl which is great.

In the last ten years only two of the Super Bowls have been non-competitive games (Ravens-Giants and Buccaneers-Raiders), and six of the games have been great, down-to-the wire games (Rams-Titans, Giants-Patriots, Steelers-Cardinals and all three of the Patriots victories). Major league baseball meanwhile has had a run of relatively boring, one-sided World Series during this period, with the great exception of the Diamonds-Yankees in 2001.

deltachi8
02-02-2009, 09:52 AM
That was a great game. I only have a few complaints. The officials played a big roll in the outcome of the game. Then they failed to do their job on the last play of the game. It was odd but in the two Warner fumbles (one was over turned and the second one should have been reviewed) in the corner of the screen you could see the official looking around for someone else to make the call. He seemed very indecisive which I didn't really like. I am just shocked that in the biggest game of the year they didn't give the determining play a second look. Shame on the NFL.

Over the last few years with parity starting to become greater the Super Bowls have been great games. There are very few blow outs in the Super Bowl which is great.

According to the NFL, the last play was reviewed in the booth and upheld.

Hoosier Red
02-02-2009, 10:04 AM
It sure as heck wasn't reviewed by the ref on the field.

Bip Roberts
02-02-2009, 10:06 AM
According to the NFL, the last play was reviewed in the booth and upheld.

Because they know that if the cardinals win less SB tshirts would have been bought.

Quick end the game we need to make money!

joshnky
02-02-2009, 10:27 AM
Did anyone else see/hear Rodney Harrison make a complete ass of himself in front of a few hundred million people during the pre-game?

I watched it and didn't get this impression at all. I thought his piece in the David Tyree video was very gracious. He made the tongue in cheek comment "this year the best team will win - Pittsburgh" but given everything he had said previously about the Giants I thought he was just having fun with it.

WMR
02-02-2009, 10:33 AM
I watched it and didn't get this impression at all. I thought his piece in the David Tyree video was very gracious. He made the tongue in cheek comment "this year the best team will win - Pittsburgh" but given everything he had said previously about the Giants I thought he was just having fun with it.

It's alright, he probably just had a little bit too much HGH that morning.

joshnky
02-02-2009, 10:50 AM
It's alright, he probably just had a little bit too much HGH that morning.

I think your hatred for the Patriots and Rodney Harrison may be clouding your point of view. ;)

WMR
02-02-2009, 10:53 AM
I think your hatred for the Patriots and Rodney Harrison may be clouding your point of view. ;)

NEVER!!! :lol:

Puffy
02-02-2009, 10:59 AM
I have never understood the hatred for the Steelers. Maybe because the Giants don't play the Steelers but once every four years but I know tons of Eagles, Cowboys and Steelers fans here in Panama City. And the Steeler fans are easily the nicest, classiest of the bunch. They talk with you before the game, during, afterward, they understand the game (whereas Eagles fans cheer when their team gets a three yard gain and then when their defense makes a stop after a four yard run - how can they both be good?).

I would go out of my way to not watch a Giants game with Cowboys or Eagles fans (even though some of those guys are friends of mine) but I would watch a Steeler-Giant game with Steeler fans cause I know that win or lose the Steeler fans will be cool all the way through.

And the Rooney's are class. Congrats Steelers!

Roy Tucker
02-02-2009, 11:20 AM
Puffy, obviously you never attended a Browns-Steelers game at old Cleveland Municipal Stadium. I can't say "classy" could decribe any of the fan behavior there, Browns or Steelers. Nasty, rude, obnoxious, and downright violent is more like it. Also great fun ;)

I think NBC restored my faith in network TV covering a big football game. I'm so tired of the slipshod job FOX does.

Danny Serafini
02-02-2009, 11:33 AM
I have never understood the hatred for the Steelers. Maybe because the Giants don't play the Steelers but once every four years but I know tons of Eagles, Cowboys and Steelers fans here in Panama City. And the Steeler fans are easily the nicest, classiest of the bunch. They talk with you before the game, during, afterward, they understand the game (whereas Eagles fans cheer when their team gets a three yard gain and then when their defense makes a stop after a four yard run - how can they both be good?).

I would go out of my way to not watch a Giants game with Cowboys or Eagles fans (even though some of those guys are friends of mine) but I would watch a Steeler-Giant game with Steeler fans cause I know that win or lose the Steeler fans will be cool all the way through.

And the Rooney's are class. Congrats Steelers!

Florida must be a different place. Your definition of Eagles fans is how Steelers fans are up here in NW Ohio. I didn't use to have that strong a dislike for the Steelers, but being around their fans turned me against them. One other point, I get the whole terrible towel thing, but if you bring a towel into a restaurant or bar and start waving it around, you're a dope. There is a time and a place for such things, that's not it.

macro
02-02-2009, 11:59 AM
Pittsburgh is the unquestioned class of the NFL. They play football their way, and their way has worked for the better part of 30 years.


I'm not so sure about the "unquestioned" part, Caveat. At the very distinct risk of sounding like a sour-grapes Bengals fan who's cherry picking his time periods to make a point (which I undoubtedly am :cool: ), I will point out that:


In the 12 seasons from 1980-91, they won 10 or more games in a season only once.
In the 25 seasons from 1980-2004, they played in only one Super Bowl and lost it.
More recently, in the period from 2003-06, they finished tied with or below the lowly Cincinnati Bengals in the standings three out of four seasons.

Yes, they won four titles in the 70s and two in the last four seasons, but the quarter century in-between was nothing legendary.

RedsBaron
02-02-2009, 12:06 PM
On the play where Ben was wrongfully first credited with a TD, a Steelers lineman illegally pulled Ben forward. That should have been a ten yard penalty and a replay of down.

In his online column this morning at SI's web site Peter King noted that Pittsburgh center Justin Hartwig had illegally pulled Ben forward on that play, the first member of the media that I know of to note the illegal play; Michaels and Madden made no mention of it despite numerous replays.

Redsfaithful
02-02-2009, 12:10 PM
According to the NFL, the last play was reviewed in the booth and upheld.

I'm not surprised they'd say that. If true then that was the fastest under two minutes review in NFL history, but I think they were just covering for a mistake.

bucksfan2
02-02-2009, 12:27 PM
I'm not surprised they'd say that. If true then that was the fastest under two minutes review in NFL history, but I think they were just covering for a mistake.

I think its BS. I think the league is trying to cover the behind for failing to review that play. Even if the ruling would have been upheld they should have taken the time to get the play right.

FWIW Santonio should have been flagged for his endzone celebration. Then the Steelers were flagged 15 yards on that last debated play. The Cards were screwed out of 30 yards on that final drive.

kaldaniels
02-02-2009, 12:55 PM
I think its BS. I think the league is trying to cover the behind for failing to review that play. Even if the ruling would have been upheld they should have taken the time to get the play right.

FWIW Santonio should have been flagged for his endzone celebration. Then the Steelers were flagged 15 yards on that last debated play. The Cards were screwed out of 30 yards on that final drive.

Is it me or but I still thought Warner fumbled on the last drive and the correct call was made. There was a huge difference between the first (overturned) fumble where his arm was coming forward and holding/pushing the football and the last fumble, where his arm was coming forward empty.

Bip Roberts
02-02-2009, 12:57 PM
Its not every day you see a fumble fly forward as if it was thrown by someone.

kaldaniels
02-02-2009, 01:05 PM
Its not every day you see a fumble fly forward as if it was thrown by someone.

You seriously need to take a look at the play. Warner loses control of the ball...and yes the ball comes forward, but does so because his wrist is pushing it forward after he loses control. Can't look at the ball's direction, you have to look at when possesion is lost.

Caveat Emperor
02-02-2009, 01:06 PM
Its not every day you see a fumble fly forward as if it was thrown by someone.

You can't punch the ball forward after you lose possession and claim it to be a forward pass.

It was a close call, but everyone that I've seen/heard since has agreed it was the correct ruling on the field.

Hoosier Red
02-02-2009, 01:36 PM
I'd have no problem with the ruling being a fumble, but at least have the ref go out and put his head under the hood.

There's no chance they did that.

RichRed
02-02-2009, 01:42 PM
Am I the only one who thought there was a blatant hold during Harrison's interception return? Don't know who it was but one of the Steelers had a fistful of Warner's jersey as Warner was making an attempt at a tackle.

kaldaniels
02-02-2009, 02:14 PM
I'd have no problem with the ruling being a fumble, but at least have the ref go out and put his head under the hood.

There's no chance they did that.

I'd say the speculated lack of review on this play is the definiton of a moot point. If one plans on spending the next 6 months to ensure/to discuss that a proper review is conducted on plays like this...fine, reference this play after the facts are known. But using this play and the officials' response to it to somehow cast a shadow over the game is dirty pool (not directed at you Hoosier) in my opinion.

Hoosier Red
02-02-2009, 02:20 PM
I don't think its dirty pool but rather stupid.

I mean, what's the rush? Did NBC tell them they had run out of commercials?
It takes 2 minutes for the Official to go to the hood, double check that the original call was correct and go from there. And it eliminates all conspiracy nutjobs like me.

IslandRed
02-02-2009, 02:28 PM
I might be wrong on the replay protocol, but in the last two minutes, there are no reviews unless "the booth" thinks there ought to be, and they can get those replays instantly, unlike TV viewers. If the first replay they look at in the booth tells them "yep, that was obviously the right call," they're not going to buzz down to the field. If they do buzz down to the field, then the call becomes the referee's. But I don't think the on-field ref can call for a review on his own.

SteelSD
02-02-2009, 02:46 PM
I might be wrong on the replay protocol, but in the last two minutes, there are no reviews unless "the booth" thinks there ought to be, and they can get those replays instantly, unlike TV viewers. If the first replay they look at in the booth tells them "yep, that was obviously the right call," they're not going to buzz down to the field. If they do buzz down to the field, then the call becomes the referee's. But I don't think the on-field ref can call for a review on his own.

Yep. That's correct. In this case, proper procedure was followed in the booth to confirm that the right call was made on the field. At that point, there's no reason to halt the game in order to look at it any further. How long it took doesn't factor into things.

Marc D
02-02-2009, 03:40 PM
Oh joy, now we get to hear about how great Big Ben is because his defense has won two super bowls. This always happens with QBs. The guy is good, but he's not a great QB, and isn't anywhere near HOF caliber, yet we're already hearing that term being applied.


I'm not ready to put anyone in the HOF after 4 years but to dismiss Ben as nothing more than a game manager riding a great defense is just as off base.

I saw the defense spit the bit with 2:30 or so to go and the offense, with Ben at QB, drive the field to win the game just like they did at Baltimore and against San Diego this year.

IMO you put Ben on a team with a lesser defense but a better OL and ask him to throw 30 times a game he'd put up great numbers but win fewer games. Like you said, that's the nature of the QB position, too much credit/blame for team wins and losses in the most team oriented sport.

All that said, he's the perfect fit for that team and the wins are going to continue to pile up if he stays healthy. Decent stats, lots of wins and some SB bling will put a QB into HOF conversations at the end of decently long career. That's just the way it is.

kaldaniels
02-02-2009, 03:47 PM
On a new tangent...the buzz before the game was if Warner won, that would put him in the Hall of Fame. He didn't win...so what is your opinion and what is your prediction on what will happen.

I'm inclined to demand one more high-flying season from him myself...but I think at this point he is in, albeit after a few years of elgibility.

Matt700wlw
02-02-2009, 04:04 PM
Catch?

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=16384&stc=1&d=1233607378

;)

SteelSD
02-02-2009, 04:23 PM
Catch

http://thebiglead.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/3917e638fc175409ec80eaf28e85ac44-getty-80670228zz305_super_bowl_xl.jpg

Catch

http://www.steelersdepot.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/2ft.jpg

CATCH!!

http://www.steelersdepot.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/2ftzoom.jpg

Matt700wlw
02-02-2009, 04:30 PM
I know.

:)

Just adding fuel to the conspiracy.

RichRed
02-02-2009, 04:53 PM
On a new tangent...the buzz before the game was if Warner won, that would put him in the Hall of Fame. He didn't win...so what is your opinion and what is your prediction on what will happen.

I'm inclined to demand one more high-flying season from him myself...but I think at this point he is in, albeit after a few years of elgibility.

I predict that he will get in but I don't think he should, unless he puts up a couple more seasons like this one and the last.

He's played exactly 7 seasons in which he's started 10 games or more, and only 4 of those can be considered great seasons: '99, '01, '07 and '08.

Warner gets a lot of mileage out of his underdog story and Super Bowl appearances, and rightfully so, but there's not enough of a resume to warrant HOF induction, in my opinion.

Sea Ray
02-02-2009, 05:23 PM
On a new tangent...the buzz before the game was if Warner won, that would put him in the Hall of Fame. He didn't win...so what is your opinion and what is your prediction on what will happen.

I'm inclined to demand one more high-flying season from him myself...but I think at this point he is in, albeit after a few years of elgibility.

I think he's in. I don't think he has to do anything else. He's been to the Super Bowl three times now with two of the worst franchises in the NFL. His passing numbers are also very impressive. I think he gets in w/o too much trouble.

RedsBaron
02-02-2009, 05:48 PM
Warner has almost had a Sandy Koufax type of career in that he has only had a few even good seasons, but those few have been tremendously great.

Caveat Emperor
02-02-2009, 06:07 PM
Warner has almost had a Sandy Koufax type of career in that he has only had a few even good seasons, but those few have been tremendously great.

He now also owns the #1, #2, and #3 best passing (yards) performances in Super Bowl history.

I think Warner's in.

cincrazy
02-02-2009, 06:33 PM
I like Kurt Warner a lot, but I have a hard time putting him in the Hall of Fame. Only five times in his career has he surpassed 12 passing td's in a season. Also, there were several points in his career (the end of his St. Louis tenure, his entire time with the Giants, the beginning of his Arizona era) where I didn't consider him a good qb. He's had some amazing seasons and is an outstanding field leader, but I don't think the body of work constitutes a Hall of Fame nod.

GAC
02-02-2009, 07:19 PM
It sure as heck wasn't reviewed by the ref on the field.

How is that possible? :p:

GAC
02-02-2009, 07:25 PM
Puffy, obviously you never attended a Browns-Steelers game at old Cleveland Municipal Stadium. I can't say "classy" could decribe any of the fan behavior there, Browns or Steelers. Nasty, rude, obnoxious, and downright violent is more like it. Also great fun ;)

The only way to play rival football.

I actually had a co-worker several years ago go to a Browns-Steelers game in Cleveland and sit in the Dawg Pound in full Steeler regalia. Security actually had to intervene and "escort" the poor fool out of there because they almost killed him.

GAC
02-02-2009, 07:29 PM
Yes, they won four titles in the 70s and two in the last four seasons, but the quarter century in-between was nothing legendary.

It would be to Brown/Bengal fans.

Heck! We'll even settle for consecutive seasons with an above .500 record right now! :cool:

All franchises have gone through periods of sucktitude. I remember the Patriots of days old.

The question is..... when is it going to end for our Ohio teams? When is it our turn? :p:

remdog
02-02-2009, 11:07 PM
The question is..... when is it going to end for our Ohio teams? When is it our turn? :p:

The 50's & 60's for the Browns.

The 80's for the Bengals.

Oh wait, that happened last century when there was a guy named Paul Brown around......:(

Rem

SteelSD
02-03-2009, 12:39 AM
I'm not so sure about the "unquestioned" part, Caveat. At the very distinct risk of sounding like a sour-grapes Bengals fan who's cherry picking his time periods to make a point (which I undoubtedly am :cool: ), I will point out that:

Well lets take a look at some of those cherries in your picker...;)


In the 12 seasons from 1980-91, they won 10 or more games in a season only once.

Well, that's true but it does include the strike season of 1982, where they only played nine games. During that 12-year span, the Steelers produced only 4 sub-.500 seasons while also making the playoffs 4 times (one AFC Championship game <loss>). IMHO, the true test of a great franchise isn't just how they perform during an up-cycle, but how they perform during a down-cycle. They weren't awesome over those 12 years, but if you're good enough to produce .500 or better seasons 67% of the time while making the Playoffs 33% of the time after your "Dynasty" team got old, that's good enough to keep me interested.

Team in down-cycle produces 93-91 record over 12 years, makes the playoffs 4 times and outscores their opponents by 120 points over that span. Only two 10-loss seasons.

Enter the Bill Cowher era...


In the 25 seasons from 1980-2004, they played in only one Super Bowl and lost it.

Yep. That's true. Yet, again, that time frame begins after their "Dynasty" seasons and even during that time frame, the Steelers played well enough to produce a record of 223 Wins and 168 Losses with a point differential of +837. The Cowher years up to 2004 produced 130 Wins versus 77 Losses and a Point Diff of +717.

During those 25 years, the Steelers played in 25% of the AFC Championship games. They made the playoffs in 15 of those 25 years (60%). In 9 of those 25 years (36%), Steelers fans were treated to multiple Playoff games.


More recently, in the period from 2003-06, they finished tied with or below the lowly Cincinnati Bengals in the standings three out of four seasons.


Yes, they won four titles in the 70s and two in the last four seasons, but the quarter century in-between was nothing legendary.

Adding in the 2005 to 2008 data and we get the following over the last 29 seasons:

Wins: 264
Losses: 191
Playoff Games: 31
Points For: 9653
Points Against: 8399
AFC Championship Games: 7
Super Bowls: 3
Super Bowl Wins: 2
Sub-.500 Seasons: 7

Longest Wait for a Steelers Fan for a Playoff Game: 4 Seasons (1985-1988).

Do we need to add the 1979 Steelers to make it a clean 30 years? Would that be good or bad? :p:

bucksfan2
02-03-2009, 08:20 AM
I like Kurt Warner a lot, but I have a hard time putting him in the Hall of Fame. Only five times in his career has he surpassed 12 passing td's in a season. Also, there were several points in his career (the end of his St. Louis tenure, his entire time with the Giants, the beginning of his Arizona era) where I didn't consider him a good qb. He's had some amazing seasons and is an outstanding field leader, but I don't think the body of work constitutes a Hall of Fame nod.

Let me ask you a question. If Warner's last name was Manning would he be in the HOF? IMO if Warner had a NFL name like Manning he would have won the MVP this year (another topic another debate) which would have him a 3 time NFL MVP and have been to 3 Super Bowls. His postseason resume would be greater than Payton, Marino, and Favre. He did so leading two of the worst franchises, not named the Lions, to the Super Bowl. Too often we look at pure passer numbers instead of winning when looking at QB's. As much as I dislike Big Ben he just has that winners mentality. The same can be said about Warner when healthy, he wins.

RedsBaron
02-03-2009, 09:24 AM
Kurt Warner has played in three Super Bowls and has passed for more than 300 yards in each of those games, the only QB to ever have three 300+ yard games in Super Bowl history. He is also the career leader in Super Bowl passing yards with 1156, having passed for more yards than did Joe Montana or John Elway, even though Montana played in 4 Super Bowls and Elway played in 5.
That obviously doesn't mean that Warner is a better QB than were Montana or Elway or even that Warner should be in the HOF, but I was surprised to learn that he holds those records.

RedsBaron
02-03-2009, 09:26 AM
He now also owns the #1, #2, and #3 best passing (yards) performances in Super Bowl history.

I think Warner's in.

I didn't see CE's post before making my most recent post.

macro
02-03-2009, 01:35 PM
Do we need to add the 1979 Steelers to make it a clean 30 years? Would that be good or bad?
Nah, I don't want to include any of that 70s stuff or recent stuff in this discussion.

:devil:

Seriously, though, your points are well-made and well-taken, and that's why I wanted to be transparent about my motives. I guess I'm just a Bengals fan trying to find consolation for my misery. In a typical season, my consolation prize following another Bengals disaster is to see Pittsburgh eliminated. Now I have to wait another twelve months (at least) to claim the consolation prize again.

You know, it's a sorry state of affairs for a fan when your only enjoyment comes from another team's failure, but I don't think Bengals fans can hope for anything more.

cincrazy
02-04-2009, 09:17 AM
Let me ask you a question. If Warner's last name was Manning would he be in the HOF? IMO if Warner had a NFL name like Manning he would have won the MVP this year (another topic another debate) which would have him a 3 time NFL MVP and have been to 3 Super Bowls. His postseason resume would be greater than Payton, Marino, and Favre. He did so leading two of the worst franchises, not named the Lions, to the Super Bowl. Too often we look at pure passer numbers instead of winning when looking at QB's. As much as I dislike Big Ben he just has that winners mentality. The same can be said about Warner when healthy, he wins.

Well Roger Maris hit 61 and he's not in the hall... isn't doesn't take away from his accomplishments, but the OVERALL body of work just isn't there. If it was Kurt Manning, do I think he's a Hall of Famer? No. It has nothing to do with last name. I'm one of Kurt's biggest fans, but I don't believe in his Hall candidacy, at least at this moment in time. True, he took two historically bad teams to the Super Bowl. But that's the key word, HISTORICALLY bad teams, not bad teams at the time. The Rams were loaded with talent, and IMO if Trent Green never gets hurt, he takes them to the Super Bowl. And this Cards team, with Fitz and Anquan and Breaston and so on... again, I'm not trying to downplay his accomplishments. But I just don't see him as a Hall of Famer. From 2002-2006, he threw 27 touchdowns TOTAL. That is a remarkably large chunk of mediocrity for a Hall of Famer.

RichRed
02-04-2009, 09:57 AM
Warner's definitely an interesting case. In addition to the accomplishments already mentioned, he's #1 all-time in passing yards per game, #5 all-time in passing yards per attempt and #2 all-time in completion percentage.

Yet I have a hard time getting past the fact that he's only started 85 regular season games, or the equivalent of 5 1/2 full seasons, and that he's been almost as likely over the course of his career to have a bad-to-mediocre year as a good-to-great one.

Like I said, four really top-notch seasons (2000 was good, as well, but a pedestrian 21/18 TD/INT ratio) out of seven years in which he played 10 games or more.

I think he'll get in the HOF no matter what but I just don't think I could personally vote for him without another season or two like he had in '07 and '08.

redsfandan
02-04-2009, 12:35 PM
... From 2002-2006, he threw 27 touchdowns TOTAL. That is a remarkably large chunk of mediocrity for a Hall of Famer.


Warner's definitely an interesting case. In addition to the accomplishments already mentioned, he's #1 all-time in passing yards per game, #5 all-time in passing yards per attempt and #2 all-time in completion percentage.

Yet I have a hard time getting past the fact that he's only started 85 regular season games, or the equivalent of 5 1/2 full seasons, and that he's been almost as likely over the course of his career to have a bad-to-mediocre year as a good-to-great one. ...

To me this is what it comes down to. While Kurt Warner has some things in his favor to make the HOF he also has some things going against him. He'll already be 38 this year with only 11 seasons in the NFL and there's a big difference between what he did in the five seasons that bookend his career ('99-'01 & '07-08) and the five seasons inbetween. There are other players that have had prolific seasons and accomplishments that aren't in the NFL (or MLB) HOF like Maris in baseball and Terrell Davis in the NFL. But, just like those players, Warner doesn't have enough productive seasons on his resume at this point to say that he'll be in the HOF. I don't think he was even in the NFL until he was 27. Since his body didn't take the pounding in his early to mid 20's like typical qbs maybe that will help him be able to add a few more good seasons. It would certainly help his chances alot.

DTCromer
02-04-2009, 12:58 PM
Steelers fans are obnoxious. I'll give you that.

But it's a great thing to watch a successful organization like the Steelers win another Super Bowl. It's kind refreshing after watching how NOT to run an organization here in Cincinnati.

bucksfan2
02-04-2009, 01:23 PM
To me this is what it comes down to. While Kurt Warner has some things in his favor to make the HOF he also has some things going against him. He'll already be 38 this year with only 11 seasons in the NFL and there's a big difference between what he did in the five seasons that bookend his career ('99-'01 & '07-08) and the five seasons inbetween. There are other players that have had prolific seasons and accomplishments that aren't in the NFL (or MLB) HOF like Maris in baseball and Terrell Davis in the NFL. But, just like those players, Warner doesn't have enough productive seasons on his resume at this point to say that he'll be in the HOF. I don't think he was even in the NFL until he was 27. Since his body didn't take the pounding in his early to mid 20's like typical qbs maybe that will help him be able to add a few more good seasons. It would certainly help his chances alot.

I guess my issue is he has won 2 MVP's and should have another one. If he had 5 continuous years of success would have be considered a HOF? When he is healthy and on the field he is one of the top QB's in the NFL. If Tom Brady were never to play another snap in the NFL would he be a HOF? He has 6 great seasons as opposed to Warner's 5. Warner will probably get a little boost from his great story and the person he is off the field.

RichRed
02-04-2009, 01:40 PM
I guess my issue is he has won 2 MVP's and should have another one. If he had 5 continuous years of success would have be considered a HOF? When he is healthy and on the field he is one of the top QB's in the NFL. If Tom Brady were never to play another snap in the NFL would he be a HOF? He has 6 great seasons as opposed to Warner's 5. Warner will probably get a little boost from his great story and the person he is off the field.

The difference for me is that Brady has never had a bad season, plus he's already started 26 more games than Warner has. Not to mention that Brady has three SB wins and four appearances overall.

I have nothing against Warner; I just think he's borderline because of the relatively short and inconsistent regular season resume.

bucksfan2
02-04-2009, 02:04 PM
The difference for me is that Brady has never had a bad season, plus he's already started 26 more games than Warner has. Not to mention that Brady has three SB wins and four appearances overall.

I have nothing against Warner; I just think he's borderline because of the relatively short and inconsistent regular season resume.

For arguments sake Brady's 01 season wasn't anything special. And you also have to consider that he missed this past season with injury similar to the games Warner missed due to injuries. For their careers Brady has a 92.9 QB rating compared to Warner's 93.8.

I thought this comparison was apt because as of right now both have very similar numbers. Brady is much younger and has a much more promising career but many feel he is a HOF right now.

As for Brady in the Super Bowl you could argue that even in Warner's losses he played better.

Sea Ray
02-04-2009, 02:54 PM
The difference for me is that Brady has never had a bad season, plus he's already started 26 more games than Warner has. Not to mention that Brady has three SB wins and four appearances overall.

I have nothing against Warner; I just think he's borderline because of the relatively short and inconsistent regular season resume.

Warner's taken some awful franchises to the Super Bowl. Without Brady, the Pats go 11-5. How bad do you think the Cardinals would be without Warner? Neither St Luois or Arizona were strong defensively. The offense is what carried them. Brady's NE teams were much stronger defensively.

When you really look at it, I think they can't keep him out, although I too am troubled by his years as a backup and in the AFL.

cincrazy
02-04-2009, 03:32 PM
Warner's taken some awful franchises to the Super Bowl. Without Brady, the Pats go 11-5. How bad do you think the Cardinals would be without Warner? Neither St Luois or Arizona were strong defensively. The offense is what carried them. Brady's NE teams were much stronger defensively.

When you really look at it, I think they can't keep him out, although I too am troubled by his years as a backup and in the AFL.

Without Brady THIS year the Pats go 11-5. Their schedule was extremely week, and they still had a ton of talent. However, if you take Brady off of any of those championship teams, I don't think they get close to a title. He was working with Deion Branch, Troy Brown, David Patten, Antoine Smith, an older Corey Dillon, etc. I'm not trying to diminish Warner's accomplishments one bit, but I just think the "he's a Hall of Famer" argument is a media creation that has picked up waaaaayyyyyyyyy too much speed.

redsfanmia
02-04-2009, 06:52 PM
Let me ask you a question. If Warner's last name was Manning would he be in the HOF? IMO if Warner had a NFL name like Manning he would have won the MVP this year (another topic another debate) which would have him a 3 time NFL MVP and have been to 3 Super Bowls. His postseason resume would be greater than Payton, Marino, and Favre. He did so leading two of the worst franchises, not named the Lions, to the Super Bowl. Too often we look at pure passer numbers instead of winning when looking at QB's. As much as I dislike Big Ben he just has that winners mentality. The same can be said about Warner when healthy, he wins.

Did Peyton kick your dog or something?

goreds2
02-04-2009, 10:15 PM
Pittsburgh Parade

http://www.post-gazette.com/multimedia/?videoid=101504

SteelSD
02-05-2009, 12:36 AM
Pittsburgh Parade

http://www.post-gazette.com/multimedia/?videoid=101504

That was flat out awesome and thank you for posting the link!

bucksfan2
02-05-2009, 08:29 AM
Did Peyton kick your dog or something?

Never been enamored with Payton or the Mannings. Payton put up gaudy numbers everywhere he went but always stumbled with the big games. He never could beat the Gators in college. He couldn't beat the Pats when it counted. I had always thought that he would not win a Super Bowl but he proved me wrong on that one (although Rexy helped him out considerably).

Eli got drafted #1 because of his last name. He was hyped throughout college because of his last name. He did have a good super bowl year but his NFL career has been lackluster. To be honest I get sick and tired of hearing about the first family of QB's.

Jason Witlock had a good article about Warner a week or so ago. The Mannings have always been the golden arm golden boys. They have been hyped since Payton became top high school QB recruit. On the other hand Warner is a nobody. Played at Northern Iowa and as a backup in the AFL. His rise to fame is probably the most unlikely I have ever heard of if you think about it.

macro
02-05-2009, 09:41 AM
Eli did me in when he refused to go to the Chargers. I thought that was very pompous of him.

cincrazy
02-05-2009, 11:44 AM
Never been enamored with Payton or the Mannings. Payton put up gaudy numbers everywhere he went but always stumbled with the big games. He never could beat the Gators in college. He couldn't beat the Pats when it counted. I had always thought that he would not win a Super Bowl but he proved me wrong on that one (although Rexy helped him out considerably).

Eli got drafted #1 because of his last name. He was hyped throughout college because of his last name. He did have a good super bowl year but his NFL career has been lackluster. To be honest I get sick and tired of hearing about the first family of QB's.

Jason Witlock had a good article about Warner a week or so ago. The Mannings have always been the golden arm golden boys. They have been hyped since Payton became top high school QB recruit. On the other hand Warner is a nobody. Played at Northern Iowa and as a backup in the AFL. His rise to fame is probably the most unlikely I have ever heard of if you think about it.

I can understand you getting sick of the Manning hype, just as I get sick with the Brett Favre hype. But you can't make one argument for Warner, and then ignore it for Peyton. The Colts were absolutely atrocious before Manning showed up, and he lifted the franchise from the abyss. And Eli is probably a tad overrated, I'll give you that, and he's not as good as Kurt Warner. But he's still a very good NFL QB, and those aren't all that easy to find, just ask the Ravens pre-Joe Flacco :thumbup: (and I'm not convinced that Flacco is all that great either).

bucksfan2
02-05-2009, 02:08 PM
I can understand you getting sick of the Manning hype, just as I get sick with the Brett Favre hype. But you can't make one argument for Warner, and then ignore it for Peyton. The Colts were absolutely atrocious before Manning showed up, and he lifted the franchise from the abyss. And Eli is probably a tad overrated, I'll give you that, and he's not as good as Kurt Warner. But he's still a very good NFL QB, and those aren't all that easy to find, just ask the Ravens pre-Joe Flacco :thumbup: (and I'm not convinced that Flacco is all that great either).

Didn't the Colts appear in the AFC championship only a few years before Manning was drafted? I had also thought the Colts began to rebuild with Manning. They weren't necessarily atrocious but entering a process of rebuilding. Payton is a great QB and will be in the HOF as quickly as possible.

The reason I asked if Warner would be a HOF if his last name was Manning is because of the Manning hype machine. This started well before Eli was a good qb, he was quite awful when the NFL began to pimp him. He was still had under a 50% completion percentage when the NFL began to use both Eli and Payton as the face of the NFL.

redsfanmia
02-05-2009, 02:51 PM
Didn't the Colts appear in the AFC championship only a few years before Manning was drafted? I had also thought the Colts began to rebuild with Manning. They weren't necessarily atrocious but entering a process of rebuilding. Payton is a great QB and will be in the HOF as quickly as possible.

The Colts were 3-13 in 1997 the year before pEyton got there and he was drafted #1 overall so I think they were atrocious before he got there.

cincrazy
02-05-2009, 03:57 PM
Didn't the Colts appear in the AFC championship only a few years before Manning was drafted? I had also thought the Colts began to rebuild with Manning. They weren't necessarily atrocious but entering a process of rebuilding. Payton is a great QB and will be in the HOF as quickly as possible.

The reason I asked if Warner would be a HOF if his last name was Manning is because of the Manning hype machine. This started well before Eli was a good qb, he was quite awful when the NFL began to pimp him. He was still had under a 50% completion percentage when the NFL began to use both Eli and Payton as the face of the NFL.

The Colts made the AFC championship game the year the Cowboys beat the Steelers in the Super Bowl, which was Super Bowl 30, and that was maybe 1996 or so? So it hadn't been forever, but they were coming off back to back 3-13 seasons, and the year before that they were 9-7. So they were clearly on the decline, and if Peyton never shows up, I'm not so sure they ever pull out of it.

As for Eli, he's been treated unfairly. It takes time for QB's to develop. A lot of the great QB's were horrible at first. But they all had time to develop because their last name wasn't Manning and they weren't playing in New York. So while the last name certainly helps him in many aspects, it also works against him, IMO.

improbus
02-06-2009, 06:38 PM
I think longevity matters more in MLB than the NFL. NFL careers are shorter and there are places for both longevity guys (Art Monk) and short but brilliant careers (Sayers).

Also, when I try to pick out HOF's, I always play the same game. I ask myself, "Who would I rather have, x or y?" I played the game and here were my overall results w/ QB's over the last 20 years.

Guys I would take before Warner
Manning
Brady
Marino
Elway
Montana
Favre (maybe...depends on the team around him)
Young

Guys I would take after Warner
Roethlisberger (Depends on the O-Line...)
Aikman
McNair
Palmer
McNabb
Brees
Moon
Esiason
Bledsoe

That puts him right on the edge.