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View Full Version : Ty Wiggington signs 2 year/6 mill deal with O's



DTCromer
02-03-2009, 12:59 PM
How many people are going to complain about NOT signing Ty Wiggington?

Bip Roberts
02-03-2009, 01:00 PM
Considering we gave Taveras more money I'm going to complain

DTCromer
02-03-2009, 01:01 PM
Considering we gave Taveras more money I'm going to complain

So what? We have no true CF on this team. Not to mention his speed (when he does reach base).

AND, you do realize it's Ty Wiggington?

Bip Roberts
02-03-2009, 01:02 PM
So what? We have no true CF on this team. Not to mention his speed (when he does reach base).

AND, you do realize it's Ty Wiggington?

Yea and Ty wiggington would have filled a bigger whole for this team than signing Taveras did. All signing Taveras did was create a problem for the next 2 years.

Nasty_Boy
02-03-2009, 01:08 PM
There is no doubt in my mind (NONE WHAT-SO-EVER!) that some combination of Dickerson, Stubbs, and Hairston would out produce Willy by a mile. Stubbs already gives you GG defense, and he has top end speed and a SB success rate around 80% in the MiLB. I would bet anything that he would SLG higher while producing a better OBP than Willy. If he and Dickerson would platoon, Willy couldn't touch their production!

Bip Roberts
02-03-2009, 01:09 PM
I doubt willy could touch dickerson even with out the platoon and I only expect league average out of dickerson

texasdave
02-03-2009, 01:12 PM
There is no doubt in my mind (NONE WHAT-SO-EVER!) that some combination of Dickerson, Stubbs, and Hairston would out produce Willy by a mile. Stubbs already gives you GG defense, and he has top end speed and a SB success rate around 80% in the MiLB. I would bet anything that he would SLG higher while producing a better OBP than Willy. If he and Dickerson would platoon, Willy couldn't touch their production!

That may be true. Maybe Willy can't touch their production. But I doubt he is losing any sleep over it, because they can't touch his contract. :)

Nasty_Boy
02-03-2009, 01:21 PM
That's why so many were upset with Willy signing. He was non-tendered and the market is terrible, they could have signed him to much less and not gave him 2 years. The 2nd year is a joke especially after they were burnt last season by a speedy CF that carried a bad OBP and was shown little interest by other clubs.

NorrisHopper30
02-03-2009, 01:39 PM
That's why so many were upset with Willy signing. He was non-tendered and the market is terrible, they could have signed him to much less and not gave him 2 years. The 2nd year is a joke especially after they were burnt last season by a speedy CF that carried a bad OBP and was shown little interest by other clubs.

Did Freel have 70 steals?

Bip Roberts
02-03-2009, 01:40 PM
all those steals turned into a total of 80 something runs. Pretty impressive.

Nasty_Boy
02-03-2009, 01:46 PM
I think he had 68 steals and 64 runs... Once again, getting on base not stealing bases, batting average, or BA w/RISP leads to scoring. Everything is just a bi-product of getting on base and Wee Willy doesn't do it very well!

Nasty_Boy
02-03-2009, 01:48 PM
Also Willy is so pathetic at scoring runs that he only has 295 in 4+ seasons and 2170 plate appearances. The dude just doesn't get it done!

Z-Fly
02-03-2009, 01:55 PM
Also Willy is so pathetic at scoring runs that he only has 295 in 4+ seasons and 2170 plate appearances. The dude just doesn't get it done!

So would you say you are a fan of Willy?

Nasty_Boy
02-03-2009, 02:26 PM
I'm not a fan of anyone that is teh suck. I'm a fan of production. I'm a fan of not overpaying for guys on the scrap heap. I'm a fan using league minimum minor league prospects to gain the production that an overpriced punch and judy hitter can't give. I'm a fan of not giving 2 year deals to reclamation projects. That's what I'm a fan of... Willy is none of the above!

Captain Hook
02-03-2009, 02:43 PM
There is no doubt in my mind (NONE WHAT-SO-EVER!) that some combination of Dickerson, Stubbs, and Hairston would out produce Willy by a mile. Stubbs already gives you GG defense, and he has top end speed and a SB success rate around 80% in the MiLB. I would bet anything that he would SLG higher while producing a better OBP than Willy. If he and Dickerson would platoon, Willy couldn't touch their production!

IMO there is no way that you can predict that those 3 would out produce Willy at all. Stubbs has no experience and by most accounts is in line behind Dorn to make it to the bigs.Dickersons career minor league #s aren't much better then Willy T's major league stats and they are about the same age.I do hope that the 100+ at bats last year in the bigs is what we can expect but no way can you predict that.Hairston had a career year last season and still was hurt a lot as usual.He is older now and would be doing good to just put up career average #s in 09.

Either way we will never know.Willy T will be our starting CF the majority of the time for better or worse.

TheNext44
02-03-2009, 02:50 PM
I think he had 68 steals and 64 runs... Once again, getting on base not stealing bases, batting average, or BA w/RISP leads to scoring. Everything is just a bi-product of getting on base and Wee Willy doesn't do it very well!

Completely agree with you on Taveras, but just want to clarify a few things you said. You are correct, but I think you didn't use the best phrasing.

OBP is the most important factor that leads to scoring runs, by a lot. Batting avg is not that important, since it is included in OBP. BA w/RISP is important, however, it usually is the same as the players BA, and OBP and SLG (OPS)w/RISP is more important than BA/RISP. And steals are actually quite important, and do lead to runs, but just not nearly as much as OBP. A player needs to steal around 80 bases a year at a 75% success rate to really have any real effect on his team scoring.

Again, I agree with your sentiment, but when overstatements like that are made, it gives more fodder to the anti-stat crowd.

Ghosts of 1990
02-03-2009, 02:52 PM
I'm glad we didnt pursue wigginton. He will probably have a quiet 2 year stint in Baltimore

fadetoblack2880
02-03-2009, 02:58 PM
I'm glad we didnt pursue wigginton. He will probably have a quiet 2 year stint in Baltimore

i agree. there are other guys(nady, swisher, abreu) i'd rather see the reds pursue. maybe now people can stop whining about how super wigginton is.

TheNext44
02-03-2009, 03:30 PM
Gomes should be just as good with the bat as Wigginton, not nearly as good with the Glove, but still a much better value at $600K than $3M.

Nasty_Boy
02-03-2009, 03:42 PM
IMO there is no way that you can predict that those 3 would out produce Willy at all. Stubbs has no experience and by most accounts is in line behind Dorn to make it to the bigs.Dickersons career minor league #s aren't much better then Willy T's major league stats and they are about the same age.I do hope that the 100+ at bats last year in the bigs is what we can expect but no way can you predict that.Hairston had a career year last season and still was hurt a lot as usual.He is older now and would be doing good to just put up career average #s in 09.

Either way we will never know.Willy T will be our starting CF the majority of the time for better or worse.

I'm sorry but it would take Patterson esque seasons from both guys to not out produce Willy. Say Stubbs hits .235/.305/.375, his defense is far superior to Willy's and combine that with a .265/.350/.420 season (very possible) from Dickerson, the pair would give you more than what Willy normally brings to the table. And Stubbs and Dorn are 2 different animals. Stubbs is a speedy CF that has shown flashes of pop, an increasing OB ability, and a great SB%. Dorn is a corner guy that destroys RHP, and is seen as an average defender at best. If the need is for a CF then Stubbs would be the guy... although I think Dorn has an outside shot at making the club with a few breaks.

And I agree, Willy will be the CF for better or for worse... let's hope that his worse is bad enough through spring and early April that the team decides to try something else.

RED VAN HOT
02-03-2009, 06:31 PM
Gomes should be just as good with the bat as Wigginton, not nearly as good with the Glove, but still a much better value at $600K than $3M.

You beat me to it. Wigginton should not be compared to Taveras,but to Gomes. Gomes has a little more power, is younger, and a lot cheaper. Why would you want to pick up Wigginton if you already have Gomes?

The Taveras discussion continues to bewilder me. IIRC, it took a couple of months before the board was down on Patterson to this extent. Are the anemic batting predictions based on last year alone? Players have off years for many reasons. His career averages look good to me. Moreover, CF'ers are not plentiful. Stubbs is a year away and it is high risk to have Dickerson as your only CF option. Still, it is valid to question why he was non-tendered. The Rockies do have three guys on the roster listed as CF'ers. They seem to offer a little less speed, but a little more power. Perhaps the Rockies believed they would be better off with a CF platoon among these three. The 68 SB's tell me Taveras was hustling even if he was having a terrible year batting.

The way I choose to look at the outfield situation is that in Gomes, Dickerson, and Taveras there are three outfielders for two positions. Dickerson could platoon with either. In the event that either Taveras or Gomes gets off to slow start Dickerson could see more time. I like that flexibility, but I haven't a clue how it will eventually turn out.

Captain Hook
02-03-2009, 06:35 PM
If Willy T is able to repeat what he did in 2007(.320s BA .369s OBP)I wounder if it will be good enough to keep people of his back.He is 27 and should be in the prime of his career.It is not a reach to guess that he will put up those kind of #s or even better.

I think the argument that he will be terrible is somewhat fair but he's what we got.There is just as good of a argument that he can really help this team.I'm not a huge fan of the guy but I would like to be.I'll give him a chance.

Nasty_Boy
02-03-2009, 07:23 PM
The .320 BA and .369 OBP came in 97 games, and he was able to bunt for a hit at a historic rate. I think is more the player that he was last season and the 2 seasons before that. Regardless, he has never been very good at scoring runs. He's been a leadoff hitter in front of guys like Lance Berkman, Carlos Lee, Todd Helton, Matt Holiday, Garrett Atkins, and Brad Hawpe and he's never scored more than 84 runs in a season. He has a K/BB at 2.5/1, which isn't so good for a guy that doesn't walk a lot and depends on his speed for the majority of his hits.

I said the same thing last season about giving Dusty and Patterson a chance. I wasn't fans of either guy when they were hired/signed... I though Bako was spring training catching help... I'm just not willing to give guys with bad track records the benefit of the doubt anymore. 99% of the time if they sucked in the past, they'll suck in the present. And if they don't suck in the present, they'll probably suck in the future. Guys are what their numbers say they are... Or as Denny Green said, "They are who we thought they are!" :D

RedLakerFan24
02-03-2009, 07:32 PM
Walt better trade for Dye, Stubbs + Thompson for Dye

1. Taveras
2. Phillips
3. Votto
4. Dye
5. Bruce
6. Encarnacion
7. Hernandez
8. Gonzalez

Pitching
1. Harang
2. Volquez
3. Arroyo
4. Cueto
5. Owings

Slyder
02-03-2009, 07:53 PM
Wigginton got the same money as Willy "Pray to the Bunt Gods" Tavares and will probably very easily out produce him and Gomes at the very least...

Pardon me while I take my crystal ball and throw it through a window.

ChatterRed
02-03-2009, 08:25 PM
At the price he signed, the Reds made a mistake not pursuing him harder.

Newman4
02-03-2009, 10:46 PM
Back to the original topic, Wigginton posted a three year average of .827 OPS with .957 OPS against LHP. He just signed for 3 million per year. Exactly what the Reds needed - a cheap RH hitting two year stop gap that mashes LHP. Unexcusable by Walt. Maybe Ty got mad with Walt calling the players he was talking to "fringe" who knows. Jonny Gomes .751 OPS with .895 OPS over the same span just for argument sake.

DTCromer
02-03-2009, 10:49 PM
Am I correct in saying Yonder is being groomed as our 2010 first basemen? If that's true, then why would we sign someone to sit the bench for 1 year while paying them 3 million dollars while Votto is playing left?

RED VAN HOT
02-04-2009, 12:07 AM
Walt better trade for Dye, Stubbs + Thompson for Dye

RED VAN HOT
02-04-2009, 12:15 AM
Walt better trade for Dye, Stubbs + Thompson for Dye

OK. Got it right this time. Sorry for the premature submit.

Have you been following the FA market? One year of Dye is worth substantially less than the 11.5 M + 1 M buyout that he would cost. At best, he is worth a lower level prospect and a substantial amount of money back from the White Sox. It is the WS that have been trying all off season to trade Dye so that they can sign Abreu. The Reds may once have offered Bailey, but the market was higher then. Also, the Reds have a viable alternative to Dye now. I think Walt is in the driver's seat on this one.

roby
02-04-2009, 12:23 AM
OK. Got it right this time. Sorry for the premature submit.

I think Walt is in the driver's seat on this one.

I hope he doesn't fall asleep while driving!

redsfandan
02-04-2009, 04:50 AM
This surprised me. Not only did he sign for less than expected but the team surprised me too. There are two teams that need a 3rd baseman (Minnesota & San Francisco) and the only other decent one available is Crede (unless you count Aurilia or Nomar). But instead Wiggington signs with a team that not only doesn't need a 3rd baseman but he may be no more than a utility/platoon player on that team. I'm curious if there may be a Baltimore trade in store but at this point I have to like how their position players look.