Reds sign Jacque Jones, Daryle Ward

[OnBaseMachine]

Ward, Jones agree to Minors deals
Veteran sluggers could add pop and depth to Reds bench

By Mark Sheldon / MLB.com

CINCINNATI -- The Reds signed outfielder Jacque Jones and first baseman Daryle Ward to Minor League contracts on Thursday. The deals came with invites to big league Spring Training.

Jones, who spent most of his career with the Twins and Cubs, played 42 games last season combined with the Marlins and Tigers and batted .147. Ward played 89 games for the Cubs last season and batted .216.

Both Jones and Ward are 33, and both are left-handed hitters.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090205&content_id=3801994&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

[remdog]

It just keeps getting better and better. :rolleyes:

Rem

[Johnny Footstool]

Bench players at best.

If either of them starts more than 5 games, I'll be extremely disappointed.

[Sea Ray]

I have no problem with signing anyone to a minor league contract...whatever

[TRF]

Daryl Ward has been teasing the league for years with breakout potential.

Looks like the Reds bought into that.

[Highlifeman21]

I have no problem with signing anyone to a minor league contract...whatever

It's great in theory, but it allows the possibility of them making the 25 man roster out of ST...

[OnBaseMachine]

I'm fine with the Daryl Ward signing. He's a solid bat off the bench.

[Sea Ray]

Bench players at best.

If either of them starts more than 5 games, I'll be extremely disappointed.

Yeah, Darryl Ward can be that LH PH off the bench but you need to be darn sure they can't bring in a LOOGY because he's toast against them.

[camisadelgolf]

Well, I'm glad the Reds finally got that right-handed power bat.

waitwut.

If you think Jonny Gomes is bad defensively, wait until you see Daryle Ward in the outfield. I don't hate either signing--and I like the Jones signing--but it really makes me wonder what the Reds are thinking.

[Caveat Emperor]

I actually don't mind Jones, in theory -- he can play all 3 OF positions, and has (had?) some decent pop in his bat from the LH side of the plate.

Sadly, this bumps Willy Taveras down to the team's FOURTH best option at CF...

[BRM]

It's great in theory, but it allows the possibility of them making the 25 man roster out of ST...

More like probability...

[NC Reds]

Are we sure Jim Bowden is not on the payroll in Cincy?

I look forward to each of the Reds 72 victories this season.

[BRM]

I actually don't mind Jones, in theory -- he can play all 3 OF positions, and has (had?) some decent pop in his bat from the LH side of the plate.

Sadly, this bumps Willy Taveras down to the team's FOURTH best option at CF...

I'm pretty sure he's still Dusty's #1 option though.

For the record, I like the Jones signing as well.

[TRF]

Ward can spell Votto at 1B occasionally. Jones was all hype but he did work for the Dusty. Bad news for Dickerson I think.

[Heath]

As a moderator, I should sticky this.

I'm not.

[Homer Bailey]

This tells me that Walt has absolutely no agenda.

[BRM]

Ward can spell Votto at 1B occasionally. Jones was all hype but he did work for the Dusty. Bad news for Dickerson I think.

Chris still has options, right? He may end up a victim of the numbers game.

[lollipopcurve]

Jocketty is putting together a solid bench. I like Ward better than Jones, for the pop.

[remdog]

Bad news for Dickerson I think.


And that's my biggest problem with this deal.

Rem

[Raisor]

Jones in 08 had 134 PA's with a OPS+ of 19.

19.

Awesome.

[Homer Bailey]

This is the definition of a Reds signing. Aging vets signed to help block our up and coming prospects.

[BRM]

Minor league contract doesn't always equate to cheap signing by the way. Patterson was signed to minor league contract last March with an invite to ST. He got $3M for making the club.

[Tom Servo]

I don't want to see them making the team/getting playing time simply by their veteran status, but I like both of these guys and will root for them. Sue me.

[reds44]

I don't want to see them making the team/getting playing time simply by their veteran status, but I like both of these guys and will root for them. Sue me.
This is basically how I feel. It's the unpopular opinon on here, but I have zero problems with either of these guys. Jacque is better than Hopper, IMO. Ward is a solid PHer.

[missionhockey21]

I wonder which deflated faster, Jacque Jones' power (27 homeruns just a couple of seasons ago) or the value of the dollar? As an American and a Reds fan, I am saddened to see both frankly.

Both are fine to take a MLC flier on, Jones may rebound (I have not seen any scouting on him so I don't know) but these types of signings would have been a lot easier to swallow had we made some significant (positive) moves. But this seems to be it, wasted cash spent elsewhere and argued in countless other threads and petty minor league filler/major league emergency players signed. That is the off-season in Reds Land I suppose.

[smith288]

sweet... Jacque Jones never scared me one bit when we played against him and now he wont scare our opponents! SCORE!

[RichRed]

Daryl Ward has been teasing the league for years with breakout potential.

Looks like the Reds bought into that.

He's only 33. This is the year!

[BRM]

I have little doubt Jones will make the roster. Ward? I'm not as certain but I certainly won't be surprised. That said, I think Dickerson could be ticketed for AAA again.

[reds44]

Jocketty is putting together a solid bench. I like Ward better than Jones, for the pop.
JJ hit 27 HRs and slugged .500 in Chicago in 2006. In his three seasons prior to last, he hit 27, 23, and 24 dingers.

Votto
Bruce
Taveras
Edwin
Gonzalez
Phillips
Hernandez
Hanigan
Keppinger
Dickerson
Hairston

There is 11 leaving Gomes, Jones, Ward, Hopper, Rosales, Janish, Castillo, etc. batteling for one or two roster spots.

[Matt700wlw]

Did Dusty manage Jones back in the Chi-Town hayday?

[Chip R]

sweet... Jacque Jones never scared me one bit when we played against him and now he wont scare our opponents! SCORE!


How many times did we play against him?

[reds44]

Did Dusty manage Jones back in the Chi-Town hayday?
Yes.

[Matt700wlw]

Yes.

I figured.

[BRM]

JJ hit 27 HRs and slugged .500 in Chicago in 2006. In his three seasons prior to last, he hit 27, 23, and 24 dingers.

Votto
Bruce
Taveras
Edwin
Gonzalez
Phillips
Hernandez
Hanigan
Keppinger
Dickerson


There is 10 leaving Gomes, Jones, Ward, Hopper, Rosales, Janish, Castillo, etc. batteling for one or two roster spots.

You forgot Hairston. I can see Gomes, Jones and Ward making it and Dickerson being sent down.

[Homer Bailey]

Phew. I was afraid we weren't going to meet our former Cubs quota for 2009.

[camisadelgolf]

Did Dusty manage Jones back in the Chi-Town hayday?

Yeah, in his last season with the team.

[Raisor]

In Ward's last 342 AB's he's got a .287/.381/.497 line.

That's over 3 years, but still...

[OnBaseMachine]

In Ward's last 342 AB's he's got a .287/.381/.497 line.

That's over 3 years, but still...

Yep. I like the Ward signing, he's potentially a nice bat off the bench.

[reds44]

In Ward's last 342 AB's he's got a .287/.381/.497 line.

That's over 3 years, but still...
The majority of that is a PHer. If he replaces Valentin, the Reds certainly upgraded the "pinch hitting" position.

If it comes down to Jones vs. Dickerson I desperatley hope the Reds are smart enough to pick Dickerson. I wouldn't mind seeing them both make it, but if Jones sends Dickerson to AAA then I like it a lot less.

Nothing wrong with competition.

[marcshoe]

So i take it that Daryl Ward still hasn't become the big star so many commentators said he was going to be?

Why not, at this point, I guess.

[cumberlandreds]

Jones in 08 had 134 PA's with a OPS+ of 19.

19.

Awesome.



:lol: :cry: I can't help but laugh and cry at the same time. Another summer, another 90 losses.

[Unassisted]

More fringe... or position players for Louisville. What's sad that it almost exceeds expectations, given the budget.

[nate]

http://www.gluethemoose.com/neen/redszone/poster73099706.jpg

[Reds1]

I think it's fair to say no big signing is coming. Reds are going with who they have and hoping for a lightning in the bottle moment with some vets I guess. Minor league deals - no problem with this.

[BRM]

Ward had very good numbers as a pinch-hitter (and overall) in 06 and 07. 08 was pretty awful. If the Reds get the 06/07 version of Ward it will be a very nice pickup.

[reds44]

Ward had very good numbers as a pinch-hitter (and overall) in 06 and 07. 08 was pretty awful. If the Reds get the 06/07 version of Ward it will be a very nice pickup.
You could say the same thing about Jones.

[redsmetz]

This is basically how I feel. It's the unpopular opinon on here, but I have zero problems with either of these guys. Jacque is better than Hopper, IMO. Ward is a solid PHer.

I agree as well. And I think most of these minor league deals put Hopper out the door. If any of the minor league deal guys make the team, I think Hopper's the first one designated for assignment. Nothing against Hopper, but I'm fine with that. He's going to redundant if Dickerson makes the team (and I think he does).

[Heath]

At least Ward's not a Pirate. Another potential year of him in Pittsburgh throwback yellow saves America from the "Return of the Yellow Submarine".

[BRM]

You could say the same thing about Jones.

Sort of. Jones' power numbers vanished in 07. His last good season was 06.

[nate]

Ward is OK because I like how he spells his first name.

Put the E in the name, keep it off the field!

[Chip R]

I totally forgot Jones played for the Cubs. I'm sure Cubs fans would like to forget he played for them too.

[BRM]

I like Ward because he really fits the speed and defense theme the Reds are going for.

[cincrazy]

Are we sure Jim Bowden is not on the payroll in Cincy?

I look forward to each of the Reds 72 victories this season.

72 victories... Is that including the spring training victories with the regular season victories? Because otherwise you might not even see that many ;)

[princeton]

it's like a double Vanderwal signing.

DanO would have declared a parade.

[BRM]

If it comes down to Jones vs. Dickerson I desperatley hope the Reds are smart enough to pick Dickerson. I wouldn't mind seeing them both make it, but if Jones sends Dickerson to AAA then I like it a lot less.


Dickerson still has options. That would have worked against him with previous regimes. We'll see how it plays out with the current FO.

[reds44]

Dickerson still has options. That would have worked against him with previous regimes. We'll see how it plays out with the current FO.
Jones is on a minor league deal, so doesn't that give the Reds an option to put him in AAA and not risk losing him?

[jesusfan]

Jacque Jones and Daryle Ward... I don't mind it at all considering they are going to be bench player/pinch hitters... I'll go ahead and assume they both make the squad because of Dusty's love for both...

However, if Jones takes playing time away from Dickerson and platoons with Gomes I am going to go crazy!

[BRM]

Jones is on a minor league deal, so doesn't that give the Reds an option to put him in AAA and not risk losing him?

I don't think it does. I think he can become a FA if he doesn't make the club but I could be wrong. Smarter 'Zoners than me will no doubt have the answer.

[reds44]

Jacque Jones and Daryle Ward... I don't mind it at all considering they are going to be bench player/pinch hitters... I'll go ahead and assume they both make the squad because of Dusty's love for both...

However, if Jones takes playing time away from Dickerson and platoons with Gomes I am going to go crazy!
This is exactly how I feel. Although I think I'd rather Hairston platoon than Gomes, but that's not the point.

[OnBaseMachine]

I like Ward because he really fits the speed and defense theme the Reds are going for.

:lol:

BRM made a funny.

[BRM]

However, if Jones takes playing time away from Dickerson and platoons with Gomes I am going to go crazy!

I'm just going to assume that will be the case at this point. That way I'm not disappointed and aggravated later.

[GoReds33]

I see Ward as being the replacement for Javy off the bench. If he becomes anything more, we have some serious outfield problems.

I don't see Jones making the team. He has a funky swing, and I think it has hurt him. He has good bat speed, though he has a problem making contact. If they can straighten out his swing, he may have potential to be a good bench player, though it's likely too late in his career.

[jesusfan]

I'm just going to assume that will be the case at this point. That way I'm not disappointed and aggravated later.

Yeah.. we better get ready for opening day's lineup:

1. Willy Taveras- CF
2. Jerry Hairston- SS
3. Joey Votto- 1st
4. Edwin Encarnacion- 3rd
5. Jay Bruce- RF
6. Brandon Phillips- 2nd
7. Jacque Jones- LF
8. Ramon Hernadez- C

[BRM]

Yeah.. we better get ready for opening day's lineup:

1. Willy Taveras- CF
2. Jerry Hairston- SS
3. Joey Votto- 1st
4. Edwin Encarnacion- 3rd
5. Jay Bruce- RF
6. Brandon Phillips- 2nd
7. Jacque Jones- LF
8. Ramon Hernadez- C

Phillips will hit 4th. Likely to be a lefty on the mound so that puts Gomes in LF.

[Raisor]

Yeah.. we better get ready for opening day's lineup:

1. Willy Taveras- CF
2. Jerry Hairston- SS
3. Joey Votto- 1st
4. Edwin Encarnacion- 3rd
5. Jay Bruce- RF
6. Brandon Phillips- 2nd
7. Jacque Jones- LF
8. Ramon Hernadez- C


What on earth makes you think that Dusty will take BP out of the 4-slot?

[jesusfan]

What on earth makes you think that Dusty will take BP out of the 4-slot?

Oh yeah... my bad... I was going with Edwin 4th because I thought that would be obvious... But obviously not.. lol

Oh yea.. Against Santana and the Mets, for some reason I thought we we're playing Zona again.. Here's what I would go with against the lefty....

1. Willy Taveras
2. Jerry Hairston Jr
3. Brandon Phillips
4. Edwin Encarnacion
5. Joey Votto
6. Johnny Gomes
7. Jay Bruce
8. Ramon Hernandez

[BRM]

Does this mean Luis Gonzalez is now off the radar?

[Raisor]

Does this mean Luis Gonzalez is now off the radar?

I'm waiting for Steve Finley's name to pop up.

[BRM]

I'm waiting for Steve Finley's name to pop up.

Sign 'em both....you know, for depth.

[Strikes Out Looking]

I can't believe the uproar. Walt's trying to fill in the bench. At least he didn't sign Bubba Crosby. WEHT to Bubbafan?

[Redsfaithful]

it's like a double Vanderwal signing.

DanO would have declared a parade.

I'm waiting for the press conference for these guys. Feel the excitement!

[reds44]

Does this mean Luis Gonzalez is now off the radar?
I'd take both these guys before Luis Gonzalez.

I expect Keppinger to be at SS vs. LHP too.

For opening day:
Taveras CF
Keppinger SS
Votto 1B
Phillips 2B
Bruce RF
Edwin 3B
Gomes/Hairston LF
Hernandez C

[lollipopcurve]

I can't believe the uproar.

Are you kidding? De rigueur.

[redsmetz]

I don't think it does. I think he can become a FA if he doesn't make the club but I could be wrong. Smarter 'Zoners than me will no doubt have the answer.

I think sometimes they get released to allow them to catch on somewhere. Other times, if they agree to go to AAA, many of clauses that require them to called up, released, or trade if another club inquires about them.

[Raisor]

Are you kidding? De rigueur.

and then there's the regular uproar about the uproar. Good times.

Me? I don't mind Ward. 878 OPS over the last three years--- as a PH he will be a huge upgrade over Javy (sorry Chip). Jones is probably a waste of time.

[Falls City Beer]

Me? I don't mind Ward. 878 OPS over the last three years--- as a PH he will be a huge upgrade over Javy (sorry Chip). Jones is probably a waste of time.

That's pretty much my take. Ward's a PH exclusively as well, so he won't take PAs away from fulltimers.

[TRF]

and then there's the regular uproar about the uproar. Good times.

Me? I don't mind Ward. 878 OPS over the last three years--- as a PH he will be a huge upgrade over Javy (sorry Chip). Jones is probably a waste of time.

I agree with this. It's buying low on Ward who had a down season in '08, but his '07 line was a sick .327 .436 .527 in 79 games, 110 AB's.

If he bounces back to 80% of that off the bench, I'd be thrilled.

[missionhockey21]

I can't believe the uproar. Walt's trying to fill in the bench. At least he didn't sign Bubba Crosby. WEHT to Bubbafan?
Ward is a pretty nice risk, or rather no-risk as it is a MLC, to take. Jones probably won't do much, but again, an ok risk.

I don't think the uproar is over these small moves in particular as they are just filler moves, but I come to RedsZone hoping against all hope that there is something stirring that could change my outlook on this team in 2009. Unless the front office is putting on one heck of a poker face, these are likely the types of moves we will for the next couple of months. But that doesn't change the fact that most will view these deals as signs of inaction more so than action as they aren't the desired types of moves. It is just general frustration in my opinion.

[lollipopcurve]

and then there's the regular uproar about the uproar. Good times.

And the sniping over the uproar about the uproar. Love it!

Jocketty developing some competition for the 25th spot. I like that the GM is building a more balanced roster than they've had recently.

Just read on MLBtraderumors that Jones had laser surgery for his vision and played winter ball. He hit .314 in over 100 ABs in the Mexican Pacific League.

[flyer85]

Jones probably won't do much, but again, an ok risk.with Dusty in charge and given a good spring I can see Jones as the opening day LF. This is Corey Patterson part deux.

Dusty likes to wrap himself in old comfy moth eaten blankets. Honestly though I don't really care at this point. This team is going to be bad no matter who is in LF.

[TRF]

Yah. I'm ok with Ward, but signing Jones is a concern.

[Highlifeman21]

More like probability...

I was trying to be optimistic. Rumor has it that some of us have been stamped as pessimistic concerning the 2009 Reds.

[Highlifeman21]

This tells me that Walt has absolutely no agenda.

Unless his agenda is to obtain fringe and depth players, while doing nothing to improve the starting 8, or the pitching....

[lollipopcurve]

This is Corey Patterson part deux.

In what sense?

[Highlifeman21]

The majority of that is a PHer. If he replaces Valentin, the Reds certainly upgraded the "pinch hitting" position.

If it comes down to Jones vs. Dickerson I desperatley hope the Reds are smart enough to pick Dickerson. I wouldn't mind seeing them both make it, but if Jones sends Dickerson to AAA then I like it a lot less.

Nothing wrong with competition.

Can you ever really truly replace Javier Valentin, though?

I know of no one that can replace him in Chip's heart...

[flyer85]

In what sense?like watching someone try to dress up a pig.

Honestly, a useless exercise. Bringing in, what is at best a short term band aid, when a likely better potential long term option is in waiting to be taken off the shelf. Jones serves no purpose for the 2009 Reds.

[lollipopcurve]

like watching someone try to dress up a pig

The signing of prospective bench help to minor league deals?

[jojo]

Based upon multiple comments from the FO, we knew this was coming just not the names.

I say welcome to camp fellas....just no crying-theres no crying in baseball.

[Roy Tucker]

IIRC, wasn't there some trade rumors about Jacque Jones coming to the Reds in the 2007 time frame?

I'm OK with it all as long as Jones and Ward are bench help or hot-backup at AAA. If Dusty gets a case of the man-love for them, I'm not so OK.

[flyer85]

The signing of prospective bench help to minor league deals?want prospective bench help ... use minor league fodder. Giving Dusty an ol' veteran who once could play is giving him a loaded gun. He just won't be able to keep from taking it out and playing with it.

[Tom Servo]

IIRC, wasn't there some trade rumors about Jacque Jones coming to the Reds in the 2007 time frame?

Yeah, it was rumored to be Conine going to the Cubs and Jones coming our way, a trade that was confusing then seeing as we were sellers, Jones still had millions on his contract, and we already had Dunn, Griffey, and Hamilton.

[Red in Chicago]

and then there's the regular uproar about the uproar. Good times.

Me? I don't mind Ward. 878 OPS over the last three years--- as a PH he will be a huge upgrade over Javy (sorry Chip). Jones is probably a waste of time.

I think that about sums it up. I hope my Cub fan friends, don't hear about this signing. The Reds like to stockpile former Cubs, like the Nats like to stockpile former Reds. Very sad.

[M2]

Bad news for Dickerson I think.

I'd think so.

And not because Dusty loves him some veterans, but because he's a Looney Tunes afficianado.

http://www.minorlooneytunes.com/pictures/blacque003.jpg

[SirFelixCat]

I don't want to see them making the team/getting playing time simply by their veteran status, but I like both of these guys and will root for them. Sue me.

Agreed. These are minor league deals. Jesus this place is doom 'n gloom lately. If nothing else, this gives more depth. Never a bad thing imo. I think that this will have little to no impact on Dickerson as I think he'll shine in ST. We shall see.

[Kc61]

Reds had become overly right handed. This provides balance by adding lefties. It also provides a full compliment of outfielders, which the team lacked.

Good signings if the guys are used correctly.

[Raisor]

Jesus this place is doom 'n gloom lately. .

Sure with all the winning I can't understand why everyone is so down.

:rolleyes:

[Homer Bailey]

Reds had become overly right handed. This provides balance by adding lefties. It also provides a full compliment of outfielders, which the team lacked.

Good signings if the guys are used correctly.


What would make anyone think that Dusty would use them correctly? JJ will start 90 games in Left.

[NC Reds]

I think the Jones signing deserves some degree of outrage.

You cannot give Dusty Baker many options in players. He will invariably make bad choices and give excessive AB's to talentless hitters (see Patterson, Corey) that should be in AAA.

Where some people see "minor league contract" I see "starting outfielder," provided he has any kind of decent spring. Dusty loves him some ex-Cubs.

[IowaRed]

just a side note-wasn't one of Baker's claims when he came to Cincinnati that he would attract top free agents because everybody wanted to play for him? Or was that something others said about him? Either way.....

[Heath]

I'd think so.

And not because Dusty loves him some veterans, but because he's Looney .

http://www.minorlooneytunes.com/pictures/blacque003.jpg

fixed......

[nate]

IIRC, wasn't there some trade rumors about Jacque Jones coming to the Reds in the 2007 time frame?

I'm OK with it all as long as Jones and Ward are bench help or hot-backup at AAA. If Dusty gets a case of the man-love for them, I'm not so OK.

Jones is one of those guys who seems like he's always just about to be a Red.

I wish it was like that with Grady Sizemore.

[reds44]

I just hate the line of thinking that we should pass up potential assests to a team because our manager will misuse them. Ward and Jones are both upgrades from Hopper, who would have likely been on the team if they weren't signed. I think Dusty will misuse Jones especially, so I'm not even disagreeing with what people are posting.

Get a better manager.

[OnBaseMachine]

Ward, Jones agree to Minors deals
Veteran sluggers could add pop and depth to Reds bench

By Mark Sheldon / MLB.com

CINCINNATI -- Shoring up the bench was a final offseason item the Reds wanted to check off before heading south for Spring Training next week.

On Thursday, they essentially took a no-risk gamble on two veterans by signing outfielder Jacque Jones and pinch-hitting specialist Daryle Ward to Minor League contracts with invitations to big league camp.

"Talking with [manager] Dusty , we wanted to strengthen our bench with experienced guys and guys with good character that would fit our club and contribute," Reds general manager Walt Jocketty said. "We're bringing them to camp and basically letting them compete for the last couple of spots."

Jones, who had his best years with the Twins from 1999-2005, played for Baker on the Cubs in 2006 and could be a nice find if he can return to his previous form.

Last season, Jones batted .147 in a combined 42 games with the Tigers and Marlins. He was cut by both teams and did not play any games after June 17.

In 2002 with Minnesota and 2006 with Chicago, Jones hit a career-high 27 home runs. Although he's had a high strikeouts-to-walks ratio over his 10-year career, he is a .277 lifetime hitter and can play all three outfield spots. The 33-year-old has also played in 21 postseason games with the Twins and Cubs.

"Jacque is a guy that had an off year last year but was a pretty good player prior to that," Jocketty said.

This winter, the left-handed-hitting Jones played winter ball in Mexico and batted .314 (37-for-118) with three homers, 15 RBIs and a .349 on-base percentage in 29 games.

"He went to Mexico to work on some things," Jocketty said. "For a guy to do that with his experience in the big leagues, willing to make that sacrifice, that shows he's hungry and looking for an opportunity."

Ward, also a left-handed hitter, has been primarily a pinch-hitter the past two seasons with the Cubs. In 2007, he hit a career best .327 with a .436 on-base percentage. Last season, he dipped to a .216 average and .319 OBP in 89 games.

With 11 career pinch-hit homers, Ward is tied for fourth among active Major Leaguers. Over his 11-season career with the Astros, Dodgers, Pirates, Braves, Nationals and Cubs, he is a .263 career hitter and has appeared in 11 postseason games.

"Daryle has done a lot of pinch-hitting and knows his role," Jocketty said. "He's capable of playing at first base and could play left field."

[b]Although there are nearly 100 free agents still seeking teams on the market, Jocketty indicated the Reds would not make any more last-minute additions before camp opened on Feb. 14.

"I'm still getting a lot of calls from agents," Jocketty said. "We exceeded our limit on the number of players we wanted to bring to camp, but you want to have the right people that can help. We'll see."

One other situation pending is the signing of third baseman Edwin Encarnacion, the last remaining Reds player eligible for arbitration. Assistant GM Bob Miller has been the point-man for the club in negotiations and had talks as recently as Wednesday with Encarnacion's agent.

Encarnacion is seeking $3.7 million while the club offered $2.55 million.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090205&content_id=3801994&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

[membengal]

Good signings if the guys are used correctly.

I wish the Reds had not become a team for whom that caveat needs to applied for moves such as this.

Alas, not so much.

Ward, fine. Jones? Same worries as others...if he replaces Dickerson, it's a traveshamockery. Hopefully, that will never come close to being on the table.

[Raisor]

I just hate the line of thinking that we should pass up potential assests to a team because our manager will misuse them. Ward and Jones are both upgrades from Hopper, who would have likely been on the team if they weren't signed. I think Dusty will misuse Jones especially, so I'm not even disagreeing with what people are posting.

Get a better manager.



Get good enough players and who the manager is doesn't really matter.

[jmcclain19]

My nightmare scenario I posted about last year is coming true

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1707744&highlight=jacque#post1707744


Just think how awesome the OF will be next year when they don't re-sign Dunn.

Bruce in CF flanked by some combo of Ryan Freel, Norris Hopper, Jerry Hairston and scrub Free Agent pick up (Juan Encarnacion/Jacque Jones anyone?).

The scrappiness will be off the charts. Unfortunately, so will the losses.

[*BaseClogger*]

Jones had laser surgery for his vision and played winter ball. He hit .314 in over 100 ABs in the Mexican Pacific League.

Priceless...

[ochre]

Priceless...
You may think that's priceless, but I'm going to wait to see what Kremchek has to say.

[M2]

Jacque Jones may have just had the most significant Lasik surgery since Brandon Larson.

[lollipopcurve]

Priceless...

Just passing along the dope to you dopes.

[GAC]

Could have done just as much with Jack Jones and Burt Ward.

[nate]

Could have done just as much with Jack Jones and Burt Ward.

I was hoping for John Paul Jones and Bill Ward.

[Raisor]

I wonder how these two feel about being "fringe" players?

[reds44]

When you sign a minor league deal, I think you know what you are.

[Blitz Dorsey]

I like it. Jones is a better worst-option OF than Laynce Nix IMO... and maybe Ward can be the big lefty bat off the bench the Reds need. No risk here, possibilly a small reward.

[Highlifeman21]

When you sign a minor league deal, I think you know what you are.

Someone's giving you a chance to prove yourself.

That's what you are.

[Blitz Dorsey]

The good news is that Jones hit .314 in the Mexican Pacific League after getting laser-eye surgery.

The bad news is that the Mexican Pacific League is a co-ed slow-pitch softball league.

[Highlifeman21]

I like it. Jones is a better worst-option OF than Laynce Nix IMO... and maybe Ward can be the big lefty bat off the bench the Reds need. No risk here, possibilly a small reward.

Bite your tongue!

No one, and I mean no one is a better worst-option OF than Laynce Nix!

[*BaseClogger*]

I like it. Jones is a better worst-option OF than Laynce Nix IMO... and maybe Ward can be the big lefty bat off the bench the Reds need. No risk here, possibilly a small reward.

But Laynce Nix has post-hype sleeper potential! :angry:

[reds44]

Someone's giving you a chance to prove yourself.

That's what you are.
So you are a fringe player.

[Highlifeman21]

So you are a fringe player.

You're brought in as a fringe player, but anything can happen in ST, and over the course of a season...

I would hope you know your role if you're signed to a minor league deal with an invite to ST, but would you be content to just accept that role?

[reds44]

You're brought in as a fringe player, but anything can happen in ST, and over the course of a season...

I would hope you know your role if you're signed to a minor league deal with an invite to ST, but would you be content to just accept that role?
I was responding to the post that said I wonder how Jones and Ward feel about being called fringe players.

[Ravenlord]

Jones should be well aware that he is a fringe players these days.

Ward i think deserves a bit more than the fringe tag.

[Emin3mShady07]

Well, I'm glad the Reds finally got that right-handed power bat.

waitwut.

If you think Jonny Gomes is bad defensively, wait until you see Daryle Ward in the outfield. I don't hate either signing--and I like the Jones signing--but it really makes me wonder what the Reds are thinking.

The reds are trying to catch lightning in a bottle to take them from an average team to a good team. I see it all of the time with Kenny Williams and it happened to work 3 years ago, so now almost every white sox fan thinks it is going to happen again and again, except myself and I've finally converted my dad. It's a strategy that RARELY works but every now and then it works out and screws you over for the next decade.

[Raisor]

The good news is that Jones hit .314 in the Mexican Pacific League after getting laser-eye surgery.

The bad news is that the Mexican Pacific League is a co-ed slow-pitch softball league.

ok, I actually LOL at this.

Thanks for that.

[Gainesville Red]

The losing stops now?

[nate]

Fringe player.

Sounds like a good reality show.

[AmarilloRed]

I'm counting on Dusty's word that Gomes/Dickerson will be the LF platoon, so that leaves both players on the bench. I'm an optimist, though.

[Team Clark]

Daryl Ward has been teasing the league for years with breakout potential.

Looks like the Reds bought into that.

I'm Ok with it. Just players coming to camp. Not a big deal. If both are starting on Opening Day, THAT's a big deal. :D

[Vada Pinson Fan]

I so badly want to be optimistic and I am by default this year because the division hasn't done much to improve itself from Chicago down to Pittsburgh. Could change if Houston signs Abreu to go along with a healthy Carlos Lee returning from his broken finger/hand.

Why Walt doesn't want to "Seize the Day" and get the Abreu/Dye/Nady type of hitter I have absolutely no idea other than now being "at payroll". Does anyone think the Reds lineup, from whatever combination currently available (including that of Ward and Jones), will strike fear into any pitching opponent? Brandon Phillips is crucial to the Reds season this year. I think teams will pitch around Joey Votto; throw junk to Jay Bruce and Edwin Encarnacion hoping they swing at it and not concerned about the remaining Reds lineup. Phillips is key and will need help.

I faith in Walt Jocketty. He sees small ball as the answer and I agree to a degree but I disagree with the parts of his assembly with the exception of Ramon Hernandez and his pedigree. Time to flee. Oh gee! :redface::dunno:

[nate]

I'm Ok with it. Just players coming to camp. Not a big deal. If both are starting on Opening Day, THAT's a big deal. :D

It's a gateway drug.

[Raisor]

Jocketty jumping on the junk that is Jacque Jones just doesn't jive.

[Big Klu]

Jocketty jumping on the junk that is Jacque Jones just doesn't jive.

Why not? In St. Louis, Jocketty often made a habit of buying low on toolsy corner outfielders in the autumn of their careers, only to see them flourish after he acquired them. Reggie Sanders and Juan Encarnacion quickly come to mind. In fact, when I looked up Jacque Jones on Baseball-Reference.com, who was #1 on his list of Most Similar Batters? None other than Juan Encarnacion.

[Raisor]

Why not? In St. Louis, Jocketty often made a habit of buying low on toolsy corner outfielders in the autumn of their careers, only to see them flourish after he acquired them. Reggie Sanders and Juan Encarnacion quickly come to mind. In fact, when I looked up Jacque Jones on Baseball-Reference.com, who was #1 on his list of Most Similar Batters? None other than Juan Encarnacion.

Just jotting some jokes on this joint.

[Caveat Emperor]

On the plus side, if Jacque Jones does become the starting left fielder he'll finally have an outfielder more offensively inept than Lew Ford to share the outfield with in Willy Taveras.

[Big Klu]

Just jotting some jokes on this joint.

Got it. :D

[corkedbat]

Jones had laser surgery for his vision and played winter ball. He hit .314 in over 100 ABs in the Mexican Pacific League.

Maybe the Reds can relocate to the Mexican Pacific League. :evil:

I have no problems with Ward and Gomes as primary PHs from the left and right sides and Gomes getting some starts against LH pitching. I've been shouting for more pop off the bench and I think they make it better than the last couple of years.

I have never been a Jacque jones fan at all, doesn't do a lot more for me than Patterson or Taveras. I actually wouldn't be that bad with it if I thought that Jones were just being brought in to compete with Ward for that LH'd bench spot, but what worries the heck out of me is is Dusty.

I see Jones coming in and putting together a decent game or two in ST, the Dusty installing him as the everyday LFer. I don't want him taking ABs from Dickerson. If Dickerson struggles early, I'd much rather those ABs go to Danny Dorn. For some reason, I don't see Jones ending up as just depth or a LH PH though and that sickens me.

[Razor Shines]

Jocketty is putting together a solid bench.

Great. Now that he's shored up the bench, at some point is he going to start to populate the roster with, you know, starters?

[LoganBuck]

Taveras, Gomes, Hairston, Jones, and Ward.

Kind of like the old episodes of Voltron from when I was a kid, when they got the bright idea to bring in the crappy Voltron made up of like 15 cars, that flew, in outer space.

[15fan]

I saw Jacque Jones play in the 1996 Olympics.

If we're going to collect former 1996 Olympians, then I say we also go after Billy Koch for the bullpen, pick up Omar Linares for 3b, and Orestes Kindelan to play LF.

Then all we need is a time machine to take us back about 12 years, and we'll be set!

Without looking, does anyone here remember the 1996 Olympian who spent the first several years of his career in the Reds minor league system?

[corkedbat]

Taveras, Gomes, Hairston, Jones, and Ward.

Kind of like the old episodes of Voltron from when I was a kid, when they got the bright idea to bring in the crappy Voltron made up of like 15 cars, that flew, in outer space.


Sounds like the "Robot Chicken" episode I watched last night. :D

[dfs]

Chris still has options, right? He may end up a victim of the numbers game.
I'm 95% sure that he does NOT have options left.

They had to put Dickerson on the 40 in 06 or risk losing him to the rule v draft.
He stayed on the 40 man roster all through the 07 season. Even though they gave playing time to people like Norris Hopper Dickerson stayed in AAA.
I think that's right.

Of course, I've been wrong in the past.

If anybody knows for sure (or better yet has a sure fire way to find out on somebody like this) feel free to chime in.

[LoganBuck]

Sounds like the "Robot Chicken" episode I watched last night. :D

Robot Chicken? What is that, I am getting old?

[paintmered]

Robot Chicken? What is that, I am getting old?

http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=robot+chicken

(as great as that website is, I do wish it wasn't quite as snarky)

[corkedbat]

Adult Swim stop-motion animation show by Seth Greenon the Toon network mostnights @ midnight. Pretty funny. Last night, it just so happens they did a "crappy Voltron" parody. :D

[Highlifeman21]

On the plus side, if Jacque Jones does become the starting left fielder he'll finally have an outfielder more offensively inept than Lew Ford to share the outfield with in Willy Taveras.

Lew Ford reference!

Last night I was playing RTTS on MLB The Show, and as I was coming up through the Rangers farm, I shared an OF with Lew Ford & Laynce Nix.

I should have taken a screenshot!

[Highlifeman21]

I saw Jacque Jones play in the 1996 Olympics.

If we're going to collect former 1996 Olympians, then I say we also go after Billy Koch for the bullpen, pick up Omar Linares for 3b, and Orestes Kindelan to play LF.

Then all we need is a time machine to take us back about 12 years, and we'll be set!

Without looking, does anyone here remember the 1996 Olympian who spent the first several years of his career in the Reds minor league system?

I wanna say Jeff Branson

[camisadelgolf]

Without looking, does anyone here remember the 1996 Olympian who spent the first several years of his career in the Reds minor league system?

I'm usually pretty good at this stuff, but I have no idea. Is he from the States?

[camisadelgolf]

Without looking, does anyone here remember the 1996 Olympian who spent the first several years of his career in the Reds minor league system?

Nevermind, I think I know who it is. I remember when he was doing really well in AA, lots of people were saying he was going to be the Reds' second baseman of the future, and when he struggled in AAA the next year, he retired. Do I have the right person?

[RedsManRick]

Jacque Jones must be in camp to Brandon Phillips can see what he'd look like as a lefty. Was Ward the guy who hit the 500+ foot HR off the building across Waveland Ave. in Chicago?

Call me crazy but I like Jones as a 5th OF a lot more than Hopper, Laynce Nix, or carrying Castillo. Hairston can be Dickerson's platoon partner and Gomes and Jones can come off the bench.

[*BaseClogger*]

Call me crazy but I like Jones as a 5th OF a lot more than... Laynce Nix...

CRAZY! :angry:

[OnBaseMachine]

Can these new guys return to old form?
Looking to shore up bench, club inks veterans Ward, Jones to minor-league contracts, with invitations to camp.

By Hal McCoy

Staff Writer

Friday, February 06, 2009

The Cincinnati Reds' search for bench help landed them two 33-year-old players with solid pasts looking to rediscover that past.

Outfielder Jacque Jones and first baseman/outfielder Daryle Ward, a pair of left-handed hitters, signed minor-league contracts with invitations to major-league camp.

"By signing them to minor-league contracts, it is a no-risk situation for us," Reds General Manager Walt Jocketty said.

"(Manager) Dusty Baker and I have had discussions the past few weeks and one of the things we've looked at is improving our bench with veterans who can contribute who are good people and leaders.

"Dusty likes both of them. I liked Jones when I was in St. Louis and tried to get him, and Ward has hurt us (the Reds) quite a bit in the past."

Jones, once a star outfielder for the Minnesota Twins, appeared last season in 42 games with Detroit and Florida.

He has played in 21 playoff games and has 20 career leadoff homers to go with a .287 lifetime average with runners in scoring position.

Ward made 89 appearances last season for the Cubs and in recent seasons has mostly been used as a pinch-hitter. His 11 pinch-hit homers tie him with Tony Clark for fourth-most among active major-leaguers. Ward is a son to two-time American League all-star Gary Ward.

Jones' best years were 2006 with the Cubs, when he hit 27 homers and drove in 81, and 2002 with the Twins, when he hit 27 homers with 85 RBIs and batted .300.

Ward had an excellent season in 2007 as a part-time performer for the Cubs and Baker when he batted 110 times, hitting three homers, driving in 19 runs and batting .327 with a .436 on-base average. But he slipped badly last season with the Cubs, hitting only .216 in 102 at-bats.

"Jones played winter ball in Mexico and that shows his dedication to do what it takes," Jocketty said.

Jones hit .314 (37-for-118) with three homers and 15 RBIs in the Mexican League.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/pro/reds/2009/02/06/ddn020609spreds.html

[KronoRed]

More lottery tickets

[WVRedsFan]

Don't throw tomatoes or too ripe bananas, but...

(And I know this is far fetched) If the Reds won, say 88 games with Jones and Willy and your scapegoate of the day in the lineup, would the outrage be as much? Walt Jocketty's track record suggests he knows baseball and baseball people. Maybe there is a method to this madness. I mean, maybe all this wailing and gnashing of teeth is a little premature.

Then, maybe not, but I'm willing to wait and see at least. If there is not hope as ST approaches, then it's time for baseball suicide. I have hope and I'm sure it will be crushed by late April, but let me have that hope now.

[Ravenlord]

Call me crazy but I like Jones as a 5th OF a lot more than Hopper, Laynce Nix, or carrying Castillo.i'd forgotten about Nix and Castillo.

when all your value is that you might be average defensively at multiple positions, i pass on Castillo. Nix i've never really liked, reminds me way too much of Adam Hyzdu. i like the current incarnation of Jones more than any of those...which is a sad, sad, sad statement in of itselft.


Wilkin Castillo
Age (level) AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB K AVG OBP SLG
20 (RK) 243 32 66 13 5 4 32 5 2 8 40 272 308 416
20 (AAA) 20 2 3 1 0 0 2 0 0 3 3 150 261 200
21 (A) 411 65 124 21 3 6 53 9 9 26 38 302 346 411
22 (A+) 200 25 57 10 1 3 19 8 2 13 24 285 329 390
22 (AA) 76 7 19 3 0 0 5 1 0 6 10 250 314 289
22 (AAA) 21 3 5 1 0 1 4 1 0 0 8 238 273 429
23 (AA) 410 50 124 31 3 6 46 18 14 17 62 302 333 437
24 (AAA) 386 40 98 18 2 6 47 4 1 24 54 254 305 358
24 (AAA) 42 2 8 0 0 0 0 1 2 1 5 190 209 190
24 (Reds) 32 6 9 1 0 0 1 0 0 1 5 281 303 313
Minor League 1809 226 504 98 14 26 208 47 30 98 244 279 321 391

scouting (not sure the scale, i'd assume 20-80)
Power: 40
Speed: 63
Contact: 78
Patience: 9
postitions: C-3B-LF-2B


Laynce Nix
level AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB K AVG OBP SLG
Majors 875 115 206 44 7 29 118 6 1 42 246 235 272 401
Minors 2644 416 739 150 20 114 475 53 17 267 622 280 346 481
position break down (majors only): 215 CF, 40 RF, 8 LF, 1 DH


Norris Hopper
level AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB K AVG OBP SLG
Majors 396 60 125 15 2 1 20 17 8 31 43 316 367 371
Minor 3431 478 991 91 29 3 295 192 62 262 378 289 343 335
position break down (majors and minors): 720 OF, 110 2B, 64 CF, 43 LF, 30 RF, 9 SS


Jacque Jones
Age AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB K AVG OBP SLG
24 322 54 93 24 2 9 44 3 4 17 63 289 329 460
25 523 66 149 26 5 19 76 7 5 26 111 285 319 463
26 475 57 131 25 0 14 49 12 9 39 92 276 335 417
27 577 96 173 37 2 27 85 6 7 37 129 300 341 511
28 517 76 157 33 1 16 69 13 1 21 105 304 333 464
29 555 69 141 22 1 24 80 13 10 40 117 254 315 427
30 523 74 130 22 4 23 73 13 4 51 120 249 319 438
31 533 73 152 31 1 27 81 9 1 35 116 285 334 499
32 453 52 129 33 2 5 66 6 3 34 70 285 335 400
33 (Det) 79 10 13 2 1 1 5 0 1 8 18 165 244 253
33 (Fla) 37 5 4 0 0 0 2 0 0 6 8 108 227 108
Career 4594 632 1272 255 19 165 630 82 45 314 949 277 326 448

[Ravenlord]

Don't throw tomatoes or too ripe bananas, but...

(And I know this is far fetched) If the Reds won, say 88 games with Jones and Willy and your scapegoate of the day in the lineup, would the outrage be as much?

the only it doesn't happen with Tavares is if he walks 50+ times and has an 80% SB rate (which that part he probably does).

honestly i don't see Jones really getting major league ABs, but if he does, they better not be at the expense of Dickerson (unless he languishes), all in LF, and OPS at least his career 770ish OPS.

[Ron Madden]

and then there's the regular uproar about the uproar. Good times.

Me? I don't mind Ward. 878 OPS over the last three years--- as a PH he will be a huge upgrade over Javy (sorry Chip). Jones is probably a waste of time.

I'm in full agreement with Raisor here.


:beerme:

[mth123]

Signings like these are exactly why Willy T was a bad idea. I'm content to throw Gomes, Jones, Ward, Nix and even Hopper into a free for all for LF playing time if Dickerson and Hairston form the CF platoon. As is, Willy T is written in stone in CF and every player named in this post (with the possible exception of Hopper) is a better player than Willy.

For 2009, I think Dickerson is the best bet of the bunch and I think his roster spot is in serious doubt now.

[Mario-Rijo]

Don't throw tomatoes or too ripe bananas, but...

(And I know this is far fetched) If the Reds won, say 88 games with Jones and Willy and your scapegoate of the day in the lineup, would the outrage be as much? Walt Jocketty's track record suggests he knows baseball and baseball people. Maybe there is a method to this madness. I mean, maybe all this wailing and gnashing of teeth is a little premature.

Then, maybe not, but I'm willing to wait and see at least. If there is not hope as ST approaches, then it's time for baseball suicide. I have hope and I'm sure it will be crushed by late April, but let me have that hope now.

Not quite as much because hey at least they had a winning season and probably drew some decent attendance which bodes well for future payrolls. However if they win 88 games with this bunch it would likely be due to a lot of good luck more than anything else and therefore not sustainable beyond next year. But it would convince Bob that he has people in place that know what they are doing and therefore we would be stuck with them again next year and chances are Bob might even extend them beyond that (Dusty and the like).

Now if the 88 games won was a result of improvements made by certain players namely BP, Bruce, EE, Cueto etc. then maybe you have something. Because we could win that way and the bad components would have likely not been any better than avg. thus showing themselves for what they are.

Basically winning would only delay any real and good changes. And it would likely destroy a lot of hope for the future of this particular young core.

[lollipopcurve]

Basically winning would only delay any real and good changes. And it would likely destroy a lot of hope for the future of this particular young core.

Redszone meets Orwell. Winning is bad and losing is good.

Imagine what the players think reading this stuff.

[Mario-Rijo]

Redszone meets Orwell. Winning is bad and losing is good.

Imagine what the players think reading this stuff.

Winning at the expense of more losing isn't ideal which I'm sure they would agree. No one is gonna belly ache if they win this season, nobody! But it's what the winning would bring with it, which would likely be the illusion that we have the right formula for future success. So we then spend countless years with BobC in charge looking for that same formula and likely continually losing.

[edabbs44]

Niot bad as bench players. As long as expectations are kept to a minimum, then these signings don't make a whole lot of difference.

[nate]

Jacque Jones must be in camp to Brandon Phillips can see what he'd look like as a lefty. Was Ward the guy who hit the 500+ foot HR off the building across Waveland Ave. in Chicago?

I thought that was Dunn.

[redsmetz]

Not quite as much because hey at least they had a winning season and probably drew some decent attendance which bodes well for future payrolls. However if they win 88 games with this bunch it would likely be due to a lot of good luck more than anything else and therefore not sustainable beyond next year. But it would convince Bob that he has people in place that know what they are doing and therefore we would be stuck with them again next year and chances are Bob might even extend them beyond that (Dusty and the like).

Now if the 88 games won was a result of improvements made by certain players namely BP, Bruce, EE, Cueto etc. then maybe you have something. Because we could win that way and the bad components would have likely not been any better than avg. thus showing themselves for what they are.

Basically winning would only delay any real and good changes. And it would likely destroy a lot of hope for the future of this particular young core.

No disrespect to your personally, Mario, but doesn't put us back where RZ often finds itself? That is, hoping the Reds don't succeed because that leaves us with a manager many folks dislike, a front office most assume is inept and on and on. When does it end? I like your second paragrah and I think most who hold some modicum of hope for this season believe it will be on the backs of the players you name. Understandably we'll need some of the new guys to do something more than their recent pasts have shown, but they're here, we want them to do well, right?

[15fan]

Nevermind, I think I know who it is. I remember when he was doing really well in AA, lots of people were saying he was going to be the Reds' second baseman of the future, and when he struggled in AAA the next year, he retired. Do I have the right person?

You're on the right track.

[nate]

(And I know this is far fetched) If the Reds won, say 88 games with Jones and Willy and your scapegoate of the day in the lineup, would the outrage be as much? Walt Jocketty's track record suggests he knows baseball and baseball people. Maybe there is a method to this madness. I mean, maybe all this wailing and gnashing of teeth is a little premature.

Then, maybe not, but I'm willing to wait and see at least. If there is not hope as ST approaches, then it's time for baseball suicide. I have hope and I'm sure it will be crushed by late April, but let me have that hope now.

Hope isn't a means to sustained winning.

Unless you're in ticket sales.

[15fan]

I wanna say Jeff Branson

Branson played in the 88 Games.

[BRM]

Niot bad as bench players. As long as expectations are kept to a minimum, then these signings don't make a whole lot of difference.

I will once again remind everyone that Corey Patterson was signed to a minor league deal last spring...in the name of depth and competition. So was Jerry Hairston. Which proves some work out, some don't.

Both of these guys will likely make the team which is perfectly fine if Jones is the 5th OF and Ward is the primary PH. As much as I love Javy, Ward certainly upgrades that spot.

[redsmetz]

Signings like these are exactly why Willy T was a bad idea. I'm content to throw Gomes, Jones, Ward, Nix and even Hopper into a free for all for LF playing time if Dickerson and Hairston form the CF platoon. As is, Willy T is written in stone in CF and every player named in this post (with the possible exception of Hopper) is a better player than Willy.

For 2009, I think Dickerson is the best bet of the bunch and I think his roster spot is in serious doubt now.

I think Hopper's clear not there. I think Dickerson will have a fair shot, but they'll take the best of the lot (I think Dickerson should be one of those). I think Ward probably makes the club as pinch hitter and the back up at 1st and any outfield work will be incidental. That leaves Jones, Gomes and Nix to fight for the final spot on the bench and extra outfielder.

We've beat the Taveras horse to death. He's here on a short contract. I like the depth they're looking at for how the financials are now. Am I ready to send in my deposit for playoff tickets? Not by a long shot, but we might see some decent baseball down on the river. Then again, we might not.

[Mario-Rijo]

Hmm, let's just see the potential 25 man here.

Primary Starters
C - Hernandez
1B - Votto
2B - Phillips
SS - Gonzo
3B - EE
LF - Dickerson
CF - Taveras
RF - Bruce

Bench
C - Hanigan
UT - Hairston
IF - Kepp
1B/COF - Ward
OF - Gomes/Jones

Unless we carry just 11 pitchers the last 2 spots will come down to Ward/Gomes/Jones. Ward I think is more likely to stick due to having 1B under his belt and being a guy who is good off the bench with LH power and patience. So it comes down to Gomes and Jones and I have to think that Jones has a slight edge despite being LH as well. Unless they decide to screw Dickerson and platoon Jones/Gomes in LF. Or if Gonzo isn't able to go then they all make it. Unless someone (like Jones) underperforms big time and someone like Nix sneaks in.

[osuceltic]

Don't throw tomatoes or too ripe bananas, but...

(And I know this is far fetched) If the Reds won, say 88 games with Jones and Willy and your scapegoate of the day in the lineup, would the outrage be as much? Walt Jocketty's track record suggests he knows baseball and baseball people. Maybe there is a method to this madness. I mean, maybe all this wailing and gnashing of teeth is a little premature.

Then, maybe not, but I'm willing to wait and see at least. If there is not hope as ST approaches, then it's time for baseball suicide. I have hope and I'm sure it will be crushed by late April, but let me have that hope now.

I honestly think if the Reds win 88 games this season, most here will consider it a fluke because the roster wasn't built the way they wanted it. I doubt there will be much credit given to Jocketty or the Reds for finding a different way to skin the cat.

[edabbs44]

I will once again remind everyone that Corey Patterson was signed to a minor league deal last spring...in the name of depth and competition. So was Jerry Hairston. Which proves some work out, some don't.

Both of these guys will likely make the team which is perfectly fine if Jones is the 5th OF and Ward is the primary PH. As much as I love Javy, Ward certainly upgrades that spot.

I led the charge last year against the absolutely mind-numbing moves like Patterson and Mercker.

The difference for me this year? Walt didn't go out and drop ridiculous money on a reliever or on a manager.

As long as this team builds for the future and doesn't do anything to hurt that plan, then they can pick up as many of these guys as they want.

Just make sure that there is a plan for the future. So far, Walt hasn't obtained the young talent that I would like to see, but I would venture to guess that teams are holding on to any young talent.

[BRM]

Hmm, let's just see the potential 25 man here.

Primary Starters
C - Hernandez
1B - Votto
2B - Phillips
SS - Gonzo
3B - EE
LF - Dickerson
CF - Taveras
RF - Bruce

Bench
C - Hanigan
UT - Hairston
IF - Kepp
1B/COF - Ward
OF - Gomes/Jones

Unless we carry just 11 pitchers the last 2 spots will come down to Ward/Gomes/Jones. Ward I think is more likely to stick due to having 1B under his belt and being a guy who is good off the bench with LH power and patience. So it comes down to Gomes and Jones and I have to think that Jones has a slight edge despite being LH as well. Unless they decide to screw Dickerson and platoon Jones/Gomes in LF. Or if Gonzo isn't able to go then they all make it. Unless someone (like Jones) underperforms big time and someone like Nix sneaks in.

I agree with you for the most part here. It should come down to Gomes/Jones for that last spot but I honestly won't be surprised if both make it and Dickerson starts the year in AAA "so he can play everyday".

[Ltlabner]

I will once again remind everyone that Corey Patterson was signed to a minor league deal last spring...in the name of depth and competition. So was Jerry Hairston. Which proves some work out, some don't.

Both of these guys will likely make the team which is perfectly fine if Jones is the 5th OF and Ward is the primary PH. As much as I love Javy, Ward certainly upgrades that spot.

Don't forget BRM, with all the youngsters around we need some "vet presence".

And for some fans, as long as the player is cheap they can stink all day long. It's when a player is good, but expensive, that we need to go in a different direction.

[BRM]

And for some fans, as long as the player is cheap they can stink all day long. It's when a player is good, but expensive, that we need to go in a different direction.

What's considered cheap? Patterson was inked to a ML deal but was given $3M when he made the squad. If Jones makes the team and gets $3M, will folks still approve or will that be considered too much money for what should be a bench player?

[Falls City Beer]

I honestly think if the Reds win 88 games this season, most here will consider it a fluke because the roster wasn't built the way they wanted it. I doubt there will be much credit given to Jocketty or the Reds for finding a different way to skin the cat.

This is, obviously, true.

But if it were Wayne, with the same acquisitions/circumstances/Castellini penury, it would be a stroke of genius.

[Ltlabner]

What's considered cheap? Patterson was inked to a ML deal but was given $3M when he made the squad. If Jones makes the team and gets $3M, will folks still approve or will that be considered too much money for what should be a bench player?

That's a good question, but I don't know. I'm not obsessed with players contracts so I guess some of the folks who are would have to chime in.

In my mixed up, topsy turvy world, paying $1 for crap is "too expensive" while paying $12,876,378 for a guy who actually produces is "a value".

[BRM]

This is, obviously, true.


While it's probably true some will call it a fluke, I'm pretty sure they would enjoy the winning season anyway.

[BRM]

In my mixed up, topsy turvy world, paying $1 for crap is "too expensive" while paying $12,876,378 for a guy who actually produces is "a value".

I live in the same world. We must be weirdo's.

[Ltlabner]

I live in the same world. We must be weirdo's.

http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~jg95/graphics/smartass/sam_weirdos2.jpg

Nate sent me this picture in a PM. I think he was referring to us.

[Falls City Beer]

While it's probably true some will call it a fluke, I'm pretty sure they would enjoy the winning season anyway.

I will, that's for sure.

[Mario-Rijo]

No disrespect to your personally, Mario, but doesn't put us back where RZ often finds itself? That is, hoping the Reds don't succeed because that leaves us with a manager many folks dislike, a front office most assume is inept and on and on. When does it end? I like your second paragrah and I think most who hold some modicum of hope for this season believe it will be on the backs of the players you name. Understandably we'll need some of the new guys to do something more than their recent pasts have shown, but they're here, we want them to do well, right?

I don't hope they lose, just hope that if they have a winning record it's due to players actually learning how to play winning baseball. I believe in Bob Castellini or at least I believe he truly wants to win and will do enough for us to remain competitive. But I don't believe in Dusty and I am not so sure Walt knows what he is doing either. And having a bunch (and I do mean a bunch) of lucky timely hits to win games (the only way they can win without real improvements) isn't usually a formula for sustained success. The way I see it we are gonna need some good fortune to reach .500, to get 88 wins will require luck the likes of which we have never seen. 88 wins fools the Reds into believing Dusty knows what he's doing. That we already have a winning core so we can trade off legit prospects for more of the same type of players that this team is structured with, guys who are up there to swing at anything close (Dusty's vision).

When does it end? It ends when we get a good mgr. or mgr/gm.

[Mario-Rijo]

I honestly think if the Reds win 88 games this season, most here will consider it a fluke because the roster wasn't built the way they wanted it. I doubt there will be much credit given to Jocketty or the Reds for finding a different way to skin the cat.

I'd say we already consider it fluke, no hindsight required. Unless of course like I said some guys do some things they haven't yet done. Again namely Bruce, BP, Cueto and EE.

[jojo]

I honestly think if the Reds win 88 games this season, most here will consider it a fluke because the roster wasn't built the way they wanted it. I doubt there will be much credit given to Jocketty or the Reds for finding a different way to skin the cat.

If they win 88 games because Gomes bats .400 (while only striking out 10 times), Taveras slugs .550 and Owings has a sub 3 ERA and a 1% HR/FB percentage, ya....it'll be a fluke.


This is, obviously, true.

But if it were Wayne, with the same acquisitions/circumstances/Castellini penury, it would be a stroke of genius.

If they win 88 games because of the above and it was Krivsky that put the team together, it would still be a fluke.

Since the devil is always in the details, lets first wait for the Reds to win 88 games and then see how they did it and then evaluate people's critiques based upon the details before we brush off their arguments as being obviously biased.... :cool:

[Chip R]

Can you ever really truly replace Javier Valentin, though?

I know of no one that can replace him in Chip's heart...


Amen, brother.

[Falls City Beer]

If they win 88 games because Gomes bats .400 (while only striking out 10 times), Taveras slugs .550 and Owings has a sub 3 ERA and a 1% HR/FB percentage, ya....it'll be a fluke.



If they win 88 games because of the above and it was Krivsky that put the team together, it would still be a fluke.

Since the devil is always in the details, lets first wait for the Reds to win 88 games and then see how they did it and then evaluate people's critiques based upon the details before we brush off their arguments as being obviously biased.... :cool:


I think it should be obvious from my many years here that I prefer statistical methods over "eye" and guesswork. I needn't explain that in great detail.

I too think this team will be bad. I think there is next to no chance this team will win 88 games. And yes, the numbers tell me that.

But I'd hope that we could avoid groupthink and the dullness and rigidity of opinion that comes from it. Because, as someone who has been here since 2000, I can tell you it's gotten worse the last couple of seasons.

I've been as negative a poster as you'll find about the Reds since the 2000 season, so I can't and won't be painted as some pollyanna. I've been pessimistically right where many have been optimistically wrong. But I've never worked to suppress or ridicule opinion, not matter how blindly optimistic.

I'm not pointing to anyone in particular as I believe I think this is a function of groupthink, not a single agenda.

[jojo]

But I'd hope that we could avoid groupthink and the dullness and rigidity of opinion that comes from it.

That is an ideal worth striving to achieve.

Just remember though, even mohawks can become cliches.

[Falls City Beer]

That is an ideal worth striving to achieve.

Just remember though, even mohawks can become cliches.

Nah, not contrarianism for its own sake. Just intellectual honesty.

I think one of the most effective methods is avoiding piling-on. That cuts down on a ton of noise, too.

[jojo]

Nah, not contrarianism for its own sake. Just intellectual honesty.

I think one of the most effective methods is avoiding piling-on. That cuts down on a ton of noise, too.

I think you're intellectually honest.

IMHO the most effective method of cutting down a ton of noise is to use the ignore function when it becomes clear that the goal is no longer to engage a discussion. I hate the ignore function though because you can't learn if you can't listen.

[remdog]

The Enqi (news light) is reoporting Jones gets $75K on the MiL deal, $600K if he makes the Reds.

Reasonable, IMO.

Rem

[Cyclone792]

Don't throw tomatoes or too ripe bananas, but...

(And I know this is far fetched) If the Reds won, say 88 games with Jones and Willy and your scapegoate of the day in the lineup, would the outrage be as much? Walt Jocketty's track record suggests he knows baseball and baseball people. Maybe there is a method to this madness. I mean, maybe all this wailing and gnashing of teeth is a little premature.

Then, maybe not, but I'm willing to wait and see at least. If there is not hope as ST approaches, then it's time for baseball suicide. I have hope and I'm sure it will be crushed by late April, but let me have that hope now.

So long as Willy T is the Willy T we all know and hate, I'll always be aggravated that he's playing. It doesn't matter if the Reds win 65 games, 75 games, 88 games, or 100 games. Whatever win total they do end up with - even if it's 88 wins - would likely have been even higher had Willy T not been around. That's my issue with Willy T.

I'll never forget 1999 when Jack McKeon sent my head through a wall by leading off with Pokey freakin' Reese and his awful no walk, .330 on-base percentage - an on-base percentage that was .316 in the leadoff slot. Reese was given 354 plate appearances in the leadoff slot and was a total out machine. Meanwhile Mike Cameron was relegated to the bottom of the lineup while Reese was leading off despite putting up a .256/.357/.469 line that I'd get on my knees and pray to see out of center field/leadoff right about now.

What happened in 1999? Sure the Reds won 96 games. Really a phenomenal season. Yet if McKeon had the sense to just leave Cameron at leadoff and leave Reese's hacktastic game at the bottom of the order, chances would have been pretty darn good that the Reds could have won 97 games.

And if they'd have won 97 games, Al Leiter and the misery of October 4th, 1999 doesn't happen.

That's the difference between good and bad decisions, even when the team still outperforms expectations.

[BRM]

The Enqi (news light) is reoporting Jones gets $75K on the MiL deal, $600K if he makes the Reds.

Reasonable, IMO.

Rem

That is very reasonable. As long as he actually produces something positive, obviously. What about Ward? Any details on his deal?

[remdog]

That is very reasonable. As long as he actually produces something positive, obviously. What about Ward? Any details on his deal?

I haven't seen anything on Ward but I would guess it would either be along the same lines as Jones but more likely less. (famous shrug)

Rem

[Jpup]

They are giving Dusty the tools to get himself fired. Make no mistake, these are Baker's choices and he will pay for them if they don't work out.

[Tom Servo]

They are giving Dusty the tools to get himself fired. Make no mistake, these are Baker's choices and he will pay for them if they don't work out.
You may be right but I get the impression that the "honeymoon" period for Dusty is over and neither the fans, the media, or Walt will give him a free pass to continuely start poorly performing guys Dusty likes such as Patterson and Bako.

[redsmetz]

They are giving Dusty the tools to get himself fired. Make no mistake, these are Baker's choices and he will pay for them if they don't work out.

That's a common idea around here, the so called "vet love" that is supposed to rear it's head with Dusty. It played out only, IMO, in batting Junior third. Patterson, the other example, began the season leading off, although he only batted in the #1 slot 16 times from the start of the season until May 25th - some of those were in a pinch hit role too - Ryan Freel batted in the #1 slot around 20 times in that same time period. After he was recalled following Freel's season ending injury, he only batted lead off seven more times. A good bit of Patterson's playing time later in the season was when injuries occurred and after Dunn and Griffey were traded.

Scott Hatteberg only started eight games before he was released in late May.

And he played Bruce, Votto, EE, Phillips. Its been said here time and again, one noticable thing with Baker; he showed patience for Encarnacion, more than any previous, I think.

So I don't buy that signing these guys will necessarily mean Dusty's going to play them over the youngsters. It's a bit of an Urban Legend, IMO.

[Big Klu]

That's a common idea around here, the so called "vet love" that is supposed to rear it's head with Dusty. It played out only, IMO, in batting Junior third. Patterson, the other example, began the season leading off, although he only batted in the #1 slot 16 times from the start of the season until May 25th - some of those were in a pinch hit role too - Ryan Freel batted in the #1 slot around 20 times in that same time period. After he was recalled following Freel's season ending injury, he only batted lead off seven more times. A good bit of Patterson's playing time later in the season was when injuries occurred and after Dunn and Griffey were traded.

Scott Hatteberg only started eight games before he was released in late May.

And he played Bruce, Votto, EE, Phillips. Its been said here time and again, one noticable thing with Baker; he showed patience for Encarnacion, more than any previous, I think.

So I don't buy that signing these guys will necessarily mean Dusty's going to play them over the youngsters. It's a bit of an Urban Legend, IMO.

Dusty was a talented youngster himself once. He isn't going to hold back a kid who can actually play.

[LoganBuck]

So long as Willy T is the Willy T we all know and hate, I'll always be aggravated that he's playing. It doesn't matter if the Reds win 65 games, 75 games, 88 games, or 100 games. Whatever win total they do end up with - even if it's 88 wins - would likely have been even higher had Willy T not been around. That's my issue with Willy T.

I'll never forget 1999 when Jack McKeon sent my head through a wall by leading off with Pokey freakin' Reese and his awful no walk, .330 on-base percentage - an on-base percentage that was .316 in the leadoff slot. Reese was given 354 plate appearances in the leadoff slot and was a total out machine. Meanwhile Mike Cameron was relegated to the bottom of the lineup while Reese was leading off despite putting up a .256/.357/.469 line that I'd get on my knees and pray to see out of center field/leadoff right about now.

What happened in 1999? Sure the Reds won 96 games. Really a phenomenal season. Yet if McKeon had the sense to just leave Cameron at leadoff and leave Reese's hacktastic game at the bottom of the order, chances would have been pretty darn good that the Reds could have won 97 games.

And if they'd have won 97 games, Al Leiter and the misery of October 4th, 1999 doesn't happen.

That's the difference between good and bad decisions, even when the team still outperforms expectations.

If I could rep you I would. That sums it up in a nut shell.

[hippie07]

I know it sounds stupid, but the optimist in me is grasping at straws here....

I think it's safe to say that if Jones lights it up in spring training that he's taking Dickerson's spot on the roster... that's the bad news.

BUT, fantasize w/ me here (if you will) and what if WJ's guess is right and the eye surgery and subsequent good stat line in the Mexican league is indicative of his return to his hay day....

what kind of production could we get if he returns to the twin's verson of Jacque Jones?

what kind of production could we get from a Jones/Gomes plattoon?

[*BaseClogger*]

what if WJ's guess is right and the eye surgery and subsequent good stat line in the Mexican league is indicative of his return to his hay day....

Folks... I don't mean to burst your bubble, but hitting .314 in a little over 100 ABs in the Mexican Pacific League means nothing...

[hippie07]

Folks... I don't mean to burst your bubble, but hitting .314 in a little over 100 ABs in the Mexican Pacific League means nothing...

hence the fantasy .... i'm not hanging my hat on 100 ABs in the Mexican Leaugue ... of course! but IF and that's a huge IF, i undersand, but IF it is indicative of a come back for Jones, what's the best case scenario?

There's no bubble to burst here, just curiously trying to find a ray of hope in an overall bad turn of events.

[*BaseClogger*]

hence the fantasy .... i'm not hanging my hat on 100 ABs in the Mexican Leaugue ... of course! but IF and that's a huge IF, i undersand, but IF it is indicative of a come back for Jones, what's the best case scenario?

There's no bubble to burst here, just curiously trying to find a ray of hope in an overall bad turn of events.

I agree that there is some upside. Jones hits .290/.340/.476 for his career against RHP. That's pretty good. He's also a solid fielder. Ward has the potential to be an excellent pinch hitter, as he was in 2006 and 2007.

However, will that take the Reds to the promise land? If these guys are traded at the deadline for some more prospects, and their place in the lineup is occupied by young guys for the second half of the season I will be quite pleased...

[princeton]

Folks... I don't mean to burst your bubble, but hitting .314 in a little over 100 ABs in the Mexican Pacific League means nothing...


raking off Sergio Valenzuela doesn't impress you?

[*BaseClogger*]

raking off Sergio Valenzuela doesn't impress you?

He's no Elmer Dessens...

[REDREAD]

So I don't buy that signing these guys will necessarily mean Dusty's going to play them over the youngsters. It's a bit of an Urban Legend, IMO.


Yep, it's an urban myth that gets played out by people that don't like Dusty.
Some other criticisms of Dusty are valid, but he's played the best guys he's had since he's been here. There's no need to worry about Dickerson or Hannagan getting screwed out of playing time if they deserve it.

Further evidence is that Dusty was more patient with EdE than any other manager the Reds have had.

[hippie07]

Okay... I'll answer my own question .... while, I'll agree that I rather it be a Dickerson in LF than Jones.... If Jones does make the squad and forces Dickerson to AAA, AND if Jones has a rebound and puts up career avg numbers (and Gomes put up career avg numbers). Used correctly in a platoon situation, we could see the following:

Jones: .290 .340 .476 .816
Gomes: .266 .369 .510 .879

Yes, this production is a big hope & a prayer, but we've basically captured Abreu's production w/o the $$$:

Abreu: .296 .371 .471 .842

[Emin3mShady07]

[QUOTE=*BaseClogger*;1799731]I agree that there is some upside. Jones hits .290/.340/.476 for his career against RHP. [\QUOTE]

That's great if jones was in or at least near the prime of his career, but he is going to be 34 next year and is two years removed from his last good season against righties, I'm positive that Chris Dickerson could easily out produce him, or even laynce nix for that matter. This just seems like a move that wastes 70 grand for nothing or 600 grand for something the reds could get elsewhere. Pretty soon all of these little "harmless" contracts add up and hurt quite a bit financially. 2 million to hariston, 2 million to taveras, 600K to Jones, 3.9 to weathers and holy crap there is 8.5 million. :angry:

[ochre]

I'll never forget 1999 when Jack McKeon sent my head through a wall by leading off with Pokey freakin' Reese and his awful no walk, .330 on-base percentage - an on-base percentage that was .316 in the leadoff slot. Reese was given 354 plate appearances in the leadoff slot and was a total out machine. Meanwhile Mike Cameron was relegated to the bottom of the lineup while Reese was leading off despite putting up a .256/.357/.469 line that I'd get on my knees and pray to see out of center field/leadoff right about now.

What happened in 1999? Sure the Reds won 96 games. Really a phenomenal season. Yet if McKeon had the sense to just leave Cameron at leadoff and leave Reese's hacktastic game at the bottom of the order, chances would have been pretty darn good that the Reds could have won 97 games.


and for all the enjoyment I had as a fan of the Reds in '99, hindsight tells me it was a fluke. The team's performance, not my enjoyment. :)

[Mario-Rijo]

That's a common idea around here, the so called "vet love" that is supposed to rear it's head with Dusty. It played out only, IMO, in batting Junior third. Patterson, the other example, began the season leading off, although he only batted in the #1 slot 16 times from the start of the season until May 25th - some of those were in a pinch hit role too - Ryan Freel batted in the #1 slot around 20 times in that same time period. After he was recalled following Freel's season ending injury, he only batted lead off seven more times. A good bit of Patterson's playing time later in the season was when injuries occurred and after Dunn and Griffey were traded.

Scott Hatteberg only started eight games before he was released in late May.

And he played Bruce, Votto, EE, Phillips. Its been said here time and again, one noticable thing with Baker; he showed patience for Encarnacion, more than any previous, I think.

So I don't buy that signing these guys will necessarily mean Dusty's going to play them over the youngsters. It's a bit of an Urban Legend, IMO.

I'm not sure that's the point Jpup was making, maybe but I thought of something else when he said that. Dusty's biggest deficiency is that he prefers guys who make contact over guys who may have a bit of a deficiency in that dept. That's ok by me unless the guy who is making contact isn't doing a whole lot else. Jones over Dickerson may be an example of that happening as it likely was a deciding factor for Dusty in having to have a contact capable CF over Dickerson. Those are ultimately gonna be the tools of Dusty's demise IMO. You can mark it down, Dickerson can have a fine OBP%, good Slg% and still if he K's too much for Dusty's liking he will be sitting the bench or the starting CF for AAA another year until Dusty (god willing) moves on.

Now don't get me wrong I'm still no fan of striking out a lot, however Dickerson's production would likely blow the doors off of Taveras and probably if given the chance could outproduce Jones as well. That said I don't mind Jones and Ward at all again as long Dusty uses them properly, which I haven't much faith in that happening obviously.

[jojo]

Folks... I don't mean to burst your bubble, but hitting .314 in a little over 100 ABs in the Mexican Pacific League means nothing...

Ya. It's not like he did it in spring training.... :cool:

[membengal]

So long as Willy T is the Willy T we all know and hate, I'll always be aggravated that he's playing. It doesn't matter if the Reds win 65 games, 75 games, 88 games, or 100 games. Whatever win total they do end up with - even if it's 88 wins - would likely have been even higher had Willy T not been around. That's my issue with Willy T.

I'll never forget 1999 when Jack McKeon sent my head through a wall by leading off with Pokey freakin' Reese and his awful no walk, .330 on-base percentage - an on-base percentage that was .316 in the leadoff slot. Reese was given 354 plate appearances in the leadoff slot and was a total out machine. Meanwhile Mike Cameron was relegated to the bottom of the lineup while Reese was leading off despite putting up a .256/.357/.469 line that I'd get on my knees and pray to see out of center field/leadoff right about now.

What happened in 1999? Sure the Reds won 96 games. Really a phenomenal season. Yet if McKeon had the sense to just leave Cameron at leadoff and leave Reese's hacktastic game at the bottom of the order, chances would have been pretty darn good that the Reds could have won 97 games.

And if they'd have won 97 games, Al Leiter and the misery of October 4th, 1999 doesn't happen.

That's the difference between good and bad decisions, even when the team still outperforms expectations.

Wow. 100% agreement.

[TRF]

So long as Willy T is the Willy T we all know and hate, I'll always be aggravated that he's playing. It doesn't matter if the Reds win 65 games, 75 games, 88 games, or 100 games. Whatever win total they do end up with - even if it's 88 wins - would likely have been even higher had Willy T not been around. That's my issue with Willy T.

I'll never forget 1999 when Jack McKeon sent my head through a wall by leading off with Pokey freakin' Reese and his awful no walk, .330 on-base percentage - an on-base percentage that was .316 in the leadoff slot. Reese was given 354 plate appearances in the leadoff slot and was a total out machine. Meanwhile Mike Cameron was relegated to the bottom of the lineup while Reese was leading off despite putting up a .256/.357/.469 line that I'd get on my knees and pray to see out of center field/leadoff right about now.

What happened in 1999? Sure the Reds won 96 games. Really a phenomenal season. Yet if McKeon had the sense to just leave Cameron at leadoff and leave Reese's hacktastic game at the bottom of the order, chances would have been pretty darn good that the Reds could have won 97 games.

And if they'd have won 97 games, Al Leiter and the misery of October 4th, 1999 doesn't happen.

That's the difference between good and bad decisions, even when the team still outperforms expectations.

Thanks for bringing this up. I was in a rotten mood, but now i feel worse.

[jojo]

If I was a betting guy (i'm not), my money would be on Dickerson being more useful than Jones going forward.

I have no idea if Jones will get the nod though. Veteranness seems to be counted as a skill sometimes and Dickerson has a very low Vetq score. Also, is spring training is going to be a big factor in the decision?

[*BaseClogger*]

[QUOTE=*BaseClogger*;1799731]I agree that there is some upside. Jones hits .290/.340/.476 for his career against RHP. [\QUOTE]

That's great if jones was in or at least near the prime of his career, but he is going to be 34 next year and is two years removed from his last good season against righties, I'm positive that Chris Dickerson could easily out produce him, or even laynce nix for that matter. This just seems like a move that wastes 70 grand for nothing or 600 grand for something the reds could get elsewhere. Pretty soon all of these little "harmless" contracts add up and hurt quite a bit financially. 2 million to hariston, 2 million to taveras, 600K to Jones, 3.9 to weathers and holy crap there is 8.5 million. :angry:

I understand all of this. I don't think you understand to context of my post...

[AmarilloRed]

Does Dickerson have options left? He made the majors last year for the first time, so I imagine he does. He can be sent to AAA the same as Hopper if Jones gets off to a hot start, and probably will.

[Kc61]

So long as Willy T is the Willy T we all know and hate, I'll always be aggravated that he's playing. It doesn't matter if the Reds win 65 games, 75 games, 88 games, or 100 games. Whatever win total they do end up with - even if it's 88 wins - would likely have been even higher had Willy T not been around. That's my issue with Willy T.

I'll never forget 1999 when Jack McKeon sent my head through a wall by leading off with Pokey freakin' Reese and his awful no walk, .330 on-base percentage - an on-base percentage that was .316 in the leadoff slot. Reese was given 354 plate appearances in the leadoff slot and was a total out machine. Meanwhile Mike Cameron was relegated to the bottom of the lineup while Reese was leading off despite putting up a .256/.357/.469 line that I'd get on my knees and pray to see out of center field/leadoff right about now.

What happened in 1999? Sure the Reds won 96 games. Really a phenomenal season. Yet if McKeon had the sense to just leave Cameron at leadoff and leave Reese's hacktastic game at the bottom of the order, chances would have been pretty darn good that the Reds could have won 97 games.

And if they'd have won 97 games, Al Leiter and the misery of October 4th, 1999 doesn't happen.

That's the difference between good and bad decisions, even when the team still outperforms expectations.

Gee, I can't buy into this at all. If the Reds' combo of players somehow produces a winning team this year, I won't be aggravated, I'll be extremely happy.

I'm really not very concerned about any individual player's stats if the team wins. Sure, some guys may not be high achievers, but if the overall team performance works, then it's a major step in the right direction.

What the Reds' management has said to us this winter is the following: management believes that the Reds will win more games with less power, but more speed, improving pitching and a deep bullpen. If it works this year, that's great. Wily Taveras or no Wily Taveras.

In four years as a starting player, Wily Taveras has been to two World Series. He may not personally have caused those teams to win the league pennants. But if he is part of the mix of a winner in Cincy, I'm not aggravated, I'm pretty darn happy, and I won't spend five minutes being aggravated over his stats.

1999 was frustrating, I remember that last regular season weekend and was frustrated and furious. But the Reds' winning years, including a 1990 Championship, was fresher in my mind then. My expectations were higher than today. Now, having endured this ridiculous decade of constant losing, I'll take my wins anyway I can get them.

[jojo]

Gee, I can't buy into this at all. If the Reds' combo of players somehow produces a winning team this year, I won't be aggravated, I'll be extremely happy.

I'm really not very concerned about any individual player's stats if the team wins. Sure, some guys may not be high achievers, but if the overall team performance works, then it's a major step in the right direction.

What the Reds' management has said to us this winter is the following: management believes that the Reds will win more games with less power, but more speed, improving pitching and a deep bullpen. If it works this year, that's great. Wily Taveras or no Wily Taveras.

In four years as a starting player, Wily Taveras has been to two World Series. He may not personally have caused those teams to win the league pennants. But if he is part of the mix of a winner in Cincy, I'm not aggravated, I'm pretty darn happy, and I won't spend five minutes being aggravated over his stats.

1999 was frustrating, I remember that last regular season weekend and was frustrated and furious. But the Reds' winning years, including a 1990 Championship, was fresher in my mind then. My expectations were higher than today. Now, having endured this ridiculous decade of constant losing, I'll take my wins anyway I can get them.

I think every last member of the ORG could suffer the slings and arrows of an 88 win season this summer.

[Emin3mShady07]

I think every last member of the ORG could suffer the slings and arrows of an 88 win season this summer.

Ironically in this case, they too would be of outrageous fortune.

[camisadelgolf]

Does Dickerson have options left? He made the majors last year for the first time, so I imagine he does. He can be sent to AAA the same as Hopper if Jones gets off to a hot start, and probably will.

Dickerson has two options left. Hopper has three.

[Tony Cloninger]

How about jason bere and Avery getting starts and taxing the bullpen more?

I remember a game in Cincy when they had a bad Cubs team beat and blew the game in the ninth.....Cubs scored about 2-3 runs to beat them.

the game in Cleveland where Williamson gave up a game winning GS to Vizquel...blowing a 2 or 3 run lead.

The first game in Milwaukee during the last series of the year...that was blown as well.

The first 3 games of the season against SF.

I can pinpoint those games as bigger reasons they did not win the division...then if Cameron had been leading off from the beginning.

They had more of a problem in Greg Vaughn not getting his hitting in gear until about the last 40 games.