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TheNext44
02-11-2009, 03:47 PM
From the Washington Post:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/nationalsjournal/2009/02/sources_nats_sign_adam_dunn.html


Sources: Nats Sign Adam Dunn
The Washington Nationals have agreed to a preliminary deal with 29-year-old free agent Adam Dunn, a signing that would fulfill their offseason-long search for a left-handed power hitter. Two independent sources have told the Post that Dunn will sign a two-year deal, possibly announced as early as tomorrow.

More details coming.

It looks like it's Dickerson/Gomes in left.

bgwilly31
02-11-2009, 03:50 PM
awww geez.

I feel sorry for him.

CRedsLarkin11
02-11-2009, 03:55 PM
Ole Jim Bo strikes again! :D It cracks me up

Old NDN
02-11-2009, 03:58 PM
Yeah, except the Nats will probably have a better record than the Reds.

CRedsLarkin11
02-11-2009, 04:00 PM
The Reds may not be very good but I sure like our chances to be better than that team

BigJohn
02-11-2009, 04:28 PM
How much you guessing? I say two years for 13 million.

Ohioballplayer
02-11-2009, 04:39 PM
2 years 20 million

UPRedsFan
02-11-2009, 04:50 PM
From the Washington Post:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/nationalsjournal/2009/02/sources_nats_sign_adam_dunn.html



It looks like it's Dickerson/Gomes in left.

Just say no to Gomes and Jacques. Dickerson/Keppinger in left will OPS much higher than any option available.

improbus
02-11-2009, 04:57 PM
Yeah, except the Nats will probably have a better record than the Reds.

Sorry, that is still a dreadful team. I couldn't name a single pitcher on their roster. Not good.

redsfanmia
02-11-2009, 05:01 PM
I thought Dunn wanted to play for a winner and would take much less to do so?

757690
02-11-2009, 05:01 PM
I feel bad for him. He wanted to play on a winner in warm weather and where he wouldn't be the main guy. At least he gets to play with his buddy Kearns and gets a good salary in the market.

The worst part is that at least for the next two years he can't prove that be is a winner.

wojo1025
02-11-2009, 05:24 PM
Nice, so (even though it's not going to happen) we can finally see the OF of Dunn, Wily Mo, Kearns!

NeilHamburger
02-11-2009, 05:33 PM
Walt should be on the phone right now asking for Dukes.

Fullboat
02-11-2009, 05:48 PM
So this is what....their tenth outfielder ?

TDHND
02-11-2009, 06:09 PM
add another former red to their roster,how many does that make now?

AccordinglyReds
02-11-2009, 06:15 PM
Now I don't have to feel bad about rooting for Dunn and his team. ;)

Hope Dunn does well. :)

Chi-Town Red
02-11-2009, 06:21 PM
wish him luck...he will need it in Washington

redsfanmia
02-11-2009, 06:23 PM
I just hope that with Dunn now being off the market we can all move on and stop the strange love affair with this guy.

Nasty_Boy
02-11-2009, 06:23 PM
If the Nats get any pitching at all they'll be a decent team. They are counting on many of the same things the Reds are counting on (young players that produce at their talent level), if that happens this team will be no slouch. Milledge and Dukes had very good 1st full seasons (much like Joey and Jay) while solid veteran Zimmerman will be healthy going into spring. Willingham is a solid player that might end up in a platoon with Kearns in RF. Guzman was pretty good last year as was Ronnie Belliard in limited action. I like this teams offense better than the Reds, but I think the Reds rotation and bullpen seperate the teams.

Kingspoint
02-11-2009, 06:36 PM
I just hope that with Dunn now being off the market we can all move on and stop the strange love affair with this guy.
No kidding. So overrated by REDS' fans, and no more proof of that was the total lack of interest in him, by anyone not named Jim Bowden.

Jerome
02-11-2009, 06:42 PM
According to the Nationals depth chart on mlb.com, Dunn is the starting first basemen. I like that move for them. They have a fairly strong young lineup (Zimmerman, Dukes, Milledge) to put with Dunn. Don't get me wrong, they are the Nationals and they will lose...a lot. Still, Dunn is being asked to be the centerpiece of a really bad team, and that's a lot similar to what the Reds asked, and look where he wound up.


http://jeromesredscare.blogspot.com

redsfan1966
02-11-2009, 07:14 PM
ha ha ha ha ha....Jim Bowden is such an idiot....

Ghosts of 1990
02-11-2009, 07:29 PM
for that price he should have been back here. Ridiculous and foolish not only our part but Dunn's.

Dunn's numbers will decline in Washington

Ghosts of 1990
02-11-2009, 07:31 PM
I just hope that with Dunn now being off the market we can all move on and stop the strange love affair with this guy.

Yeah it is odd.

I mean why would we like a guy who continually plays every day, puts up huge numbers, and keeps his mouth shut without causing problems off the field. What a loser.

Why would we want dunn when we can have Jacque Jones, Johnny Gomes and Daryle Ward getting at bats?

BLEEDS
02-11-2009, 07:47 PM
Yeah it is odd.

I mean why would we like a guy who continually plays every day, puts up huge numbers, and keeps his mouth shut without causing problems off the field. What a loser.

Why would we want dunn when we can have Jacque Jones, Johnny Gomes and Daryle Ward getting at bats?

duhn duhn duhn-duh; WWwwaaaaaaaaa....

Some folks just don't get it.

It's sad that you have to lump yourself with people who call themselves fans of baseball, when they cheer Tavares and bemoan Dunn...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Ghosts of 1990
02-11-2009, 08:06 PM
Dunn is on Hot Stove now talking about it.

Ghosts of 1990
02-11-2009, 08:07 PM
Dunn: "I wanted to play for a contender"

Adam what a joke. You wont be playing for a contender for at least another 2 years. We're going to be better then the Nationals.

Ghosts of 1990
02-11-2009, 08:10 PM
Dunn and Casey reminiscing about their days in Cincy. Funny story swapped.

redsfanmia
02-11-2009, 08:46 PM
Yeah it is odd.

I mean why would we like a guy who continually plays every day, puts up huge numbers, and keeps his mouth shut without causing problems off the field. What a loser.

Why would we want dunn when we can have Jacque Jones, Johnny Gomes and Daryle Ward getting at bats?

Dunn was not wanted by many teams so there must be something up with the guy. Plus you never know what the guy does in the clubhouse, maybe he was a bad influence you just never know.

redsfanmia
02-11-2009, 08:49 PM
duhn duhn duhn-duh; WWwwaaaaaaaaa....

Some folks just don't get it.

It's sad that you have to lump yourself with people who call themselves fans of baseball, when they cheer Tavares and bemoan Dunn...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I dont love Tavares at all, I wanted to love Dunn but could not. Dunn did not improve one phase of his game since he has been in the majors, to me thats a problem.

REDblooded
02-11-2009, 09:45 PM
I thought Dunn wanted to play for a winner and would take much less to do so?

you honestly believe that?

Nasty_Boy
02-11-2009, 11:07 PM
I dont love Tavares at all, I wanted to love Dunn but could not. Dunn did not improve one phase of his game since he has been in the majors, to me thats a problem.

Really? I see a guy that improved from his first 2-3 seasons to become a consistent ballplayer, that was very productive, and played everyday. What else do you want? If Dunn would have improved his average and cut down on his K's he would have been Albert Pujols... but he's not Albert, he's not Manny, he's not Berkman, he's Adam Dunn. A very productive player that has reached his full potential. If you expect more than what he is, then I don't think you're being realistic.

Btw, he did decreased his strikeout total the past 2 seasons, while improved as a baserunner, and he became a better outfielder. He may have lost a step on defense, but he looked much more comfortable.

ChatterRed
02-11-2009, 11:47 PM
Dunn and Kearns together? That spells trouble. If the Nats want to get anything out of Dunn, they should cut Kearns immediately.

REDblooded
02-12-2009, 04:15 AM
Really? I see a guy that improved from his first 2-3 seasons to become a consistent ballplayer, that was very productive, and played everyday. What else do you want? If Dunn would have improved his average and cut down on his K's he would have been Albert Pujols... but he's not Albert, he's not Manny, he's not Berkman, he's Adam Dunn. A very productive player that has reached his full potential. If you expect more than what he is, then I don't think you're being realistic.

Btw, he did decreased his strikeout total the past 2 seasons, while improved as a baserunner, and he became a better outfielder. He may have lost a step on defense, but he looked much more comfortable.


See, and I see a player that if he had been willing to put in a bit more work with conditioning, and in the cages (if he can't come in in shape, he's probably not giving his all honing his craft either), would've been one of the best HITTERS, not just sluggers, in the game.

thatcoolguy_22
02-12-2009, 05:35 AM
Really? I see a guy that improved from his first 2-3 seasons to become a consistent ballplayer, that was very productive, and played everyday. What else do you want? If Dunn would have improved his average and cut down on his K's he would have been Albert Pujols... but he's not Albert, he's not Manny, he's not Berkman, he's Adam Dunn. A very productive player that has reached his full potential. If you expect more than what he is, then I don't think you're being realistic.

Btw, he did decreased his strikeout total the past 2 seasons, while improved as a baserunner, and he became a better outfielder. He may have lost a step on defense, but he looked much more comfortable.

Sounds like you are talking about Wily Taveras here, except he was never a productive player...

I just hope Dunn picks up 1st base somewhat easily and continues to rake. Sucks he went to such a horrid team but, I bet his buddy Kearns played a role in that (plus a 20 million dollar offer just days after Abreu signed for 5).

Stephenk29
02-12-2009, 08:11 AM
I wouldn't worry to much about Kearns, he's now at risk of not even making the roster.

smoke6
02-12-2009, 09:42 AM
Jimbo just keeps getting better and better doesn't he? Didn't Einstein say doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity?

RedLegsToday
02-12-2009, 09:43 AM
From the Nationals webpage, Larkin and A. Boone talking about the signing:

Not only will Dunn drive in the runs, he will lead by example, according to Larkin and Boone.

"I think the Nationals will have a tighter clubhouse. He is a clubhouse presence, a guy that can hit 40 home runs," said Larkin, who now works for MLB Network. "To have that in your lineup is significant."

Said Boone: "He will be a force in the clubhouse. There is a misnomer that [Dunn] doesn't like baseball and doesn't like to play. But he is really a professional, he's tough and comes to play every day. There are not enough guys like that. He has a pretty loud personality. He will be one of the leaders in that clubhouse."

BigJohn
02-12-2009, 10:28 AM
Will he be taking his chair?

Nasty_Boy
02-12-2009, 11:26 AM
Sounds like you are talking about Wily Taveras here, except he was never a productive player...

I just hope Dunn picks up 1st base somewhat easily and continues to rake. Sucks he went to such a horrid team but, I bet his buddy Kearns played a role in that (plus a 20 million dollar offer just days after Abreu signed for 5).

IMO, the only thing that has kept Dunn from being a Ryan Howard or David Ortiz is the way he has been handled and the talent around him. If Dunn was hitting in the 3-4 hole everyday with players like Rollins, Victorino, and Utley in front of him with the protection of Burrell behind him, his numbers would be off the charts. I don't ever think he'll hit for average or strikeout less than 140 times, but he'll continue to hit HRs, drive in runs, get on base, and score runs no matter the team he's on.

EV4Prez
02-12-2009, 11:46 AM
I can't stop laughing.. Every single Reds fan, including some of the "old" ones here.. were talking about how he was a top notch player.. and the BEST contract he was offered was 2 years 20 mil.... I have heard that he was offered more than 1 offer from teams for 1 year, less than 8 mil....

Good thing there are actually reds fans who were conned into thinking this guy was worth more than that... and are truly sad we didnt bring him back..

bounty37h
02-12-2009, 11:53 AM
From the Washington Post:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/nationalsjournal/2009/02/sources_nats_sign_adam_dunn.html



It looks like it's Dickerson/Gomes in left.

Not pickin in ya, but did you really think there was even a fraction of a chance he would be back here this season?

EV4Prez
02-12-2009, 11:54 AM
IMO, the only thing that has kept Dunn from being a Ryan Howard or David Ortiz is the way he has been handled and the talent around him. If Dunn was hitting in the 3-4 hole everyday with players like Rollins, Victorino, and Utley in front of him with the protection of Burrell behind him, his numbers would be off the charts. I don't ever think he'll hit for average or strikeout less than 140 times, but he'll continue to hit HRs, drive in runs, get on base, and score runs no matter the team he's on.

David Ortiz.... and Adam Dunn.. you actually compared their hitting ability?

one is a career .287 hitter.. with 36 homers and 120 rbi's..
Howard is a career .279 hitter.. with 50 homers and 141 rbi's..
dunn is a career .247 hitter.. with 40 homers and 96 rbi's...

the rbi's is a correlation with who he is around.. but to tell me that one of the most clutch hitters of our time.. is even comparable to dunn.. thats not an equal comparison at all... Howard.. except for the k's nothing else is comparable there either..

Nasty_Boy
02-12-2009, 12:13 PM
David Ortiz.... and Adam Dunn.. you actually compared their hitting ability?

one is a career .287 hitter.. with 36 homers and 120 rbi's..
Howard is a career .279 hitter.. with 50 homers and 141 rbi's..
dunn is a career .247 hitter.. with 40 homers and 96 rbi's...

the rbi's is a correlation with who he is around.. but to tell me that one of the most clutch hitters of our time.. is even comparable to dunn.. thats not an equal comparison at all... Howard.. except for the k's nothing else is comparable there either..

Clutch hitter? Prove it... I could say that Dunn has more walk off HRs than anyone since he came into the league. Ortiz has had some big hits, but I wonder how often he has failed in "clutch" situations?

Howard does hit more HRs than Dunn and he gets a ton of RBI opportunities, but Dunn gets on base more and scores more runs. You can throw batting average out there if you want, but the reality is Dunn makes less outs than Howard.

I will say this for a fact... Texeira and Howard are not worth 8-12 million more a season than AD. You put Dunn in that Phillies lineup and his numbers would compare to Howards on the RBI front. The same goes with Tex offensively... but defensively he sets himself apart. But if I can pay 10 million and get 40 HRs, 100-110 RBI, 100+ runs scored with a .245/.388/.500 line or pay 20 million to get 48 HRs, 135-140 RBI, 90 runs scored with a .279/.380/.550 line, you would be crazy to pay an extra 10 million for that production especially seeing that the RBI difference is team related. As for Tex, he hits for a higher average, career OBP is lower than Dunn's, his SLG is higher, Dunn hits for more power but drives in a bout 10 fewer runs. I know that Tex is a better overall player, I think Howard is similar (more power, less OB skills) but these guys especially given their surrounding teams do not out produce Dunn at 10+ million a season. I would bet that their numbers would be very similar to Dunn's if the were stuck in the 5 hole in Cincy hitting behind BP and ahead of Edwin.

WildcatFan
02-12-2009, 01:46 PM
Fire Jim Bowden has an updated list of former Reds major leaguers, minor leaguers, coaches, managers, etc. who have come through Washington during Bowden's era:

Adam Dunn
Jose Guillen
Javier Valentin
Austin Kearns
Felipe Lopez
Dmitri Young
Hector Carrasco
Corey Patterson
Ryan Wagner
Wily Mo Pena
Aaron Boone
Ramon Ortiz
Ray King
Joey Eischen
Charlie Manning
D'Angelo Jimenez
Damian Jackson
Carlos Baerga
Felix Rodriguez
Jeffrey Hammonds
C.J. Nitkowski
Chris Booker
Tony Blanco
Pokey Reese
Bret Boone
Kenny Kelly
Brandon Watson
Rob Mackowiak (drafted by Jim, didn't sign)
Brandon Larson
Brandon Claussen
Phil Hiatt
Luis Pineda
Ed Yarnall
Michael Tucker
Jim Crowell
Josh Hall
Chris Michalak
Michael Coleman
Lenny Harris (coach)
Jose Cardenal (coach)
Randy St. Claire (coach)
Frank Robinson (manager)
Darnell Coles (single-A manager)
Jose Rijo (scout)
Bob Boone (Assistant GM)
Bobby Williams (farm director)
Barry Larkin (FO)
Rob Dibble (broadcaster)
Ray Knight (broadcaster)

I didn't feel like checking to see how and when some of these guys were Reds (Carlos Baerga?) but you get the idea

TheNext44
02-12-2009, 05:23 PM
IMO, the only thing that has kept Dunn from being a Ryan Howard or David Ortiz is the way he has been handled and the talent around him. If Dunn was hitting in the 3-4 hole everyday with players like Rollins, Victorino, and Utley in front of him with the protection of Burrell behind him, his numbers would be off the charts. I don't ever think he'll hit for average or strikeout less than 140 times, but he'll continue to hit HRs, drive in runs, get on base, and score runs no matter the team he's on.

I agree that Dunn is very similar to Howard and if you put Dunn in Philly these last few years, he'd put up similar numbers to Howard. In fact it is scary how alike their peripherals are. Also, if Dunn was just in his arbitration years, he would have gotten money similar to Howard. Bizarre how the market is hurting Free Agents and helping guys in arbitration.

However, Dunn does not have near the contact rate nor bat control that Ortiz has. Ortiz K's around 17% of the time and Dunn K's around 26% of the time. I am not saying that K's are all that important in and of themself, but it shows that Ortiz has better bat control, and contact ability, which leads to being a better two strike hitter. Ortiz hits .207 .306 .382 .688 with two strikes, while Dunn hits .150 .273 .304 .577. That's a big difference and will always lead to a much better production, regardless of the circumstances.

Dunn is an awesome hitter, with great production, and if he ever got a chance to be in a really strong lineup, he would put up MVP numbers IMHO, but he still is not as awesome as Ortiz.

TheNext44
02-12-2009, 05:35 PM
In the ORG there is a big debate over why Dunn only got a $20M two year deal, when he was making $13M last year. Many are saying it is the economy and some are saying that GM's just don't value Dunn that much.

This reminds me of the speed limit debate in the 70's and 80's. In the 70's, the federal government lowered the max speed limit to 55 MPH. Over the next few years, highway fatalities were way down, causing those in favor of the speed limit to brag about how effective it was. Well it turned out that the same year the limit was lowered, they also mandated that seatbelts be in every car, and a new kind of seat belt was used that was much safer than the previous one. Also, car designers developed a better way of building the cars to make them safer in accidents. And just a few years later, air bags were installed in most cars.
The point is that it rarely is just one thing that effects a change, and because of this, it is hard to say exactly what effect any one thing had on a change.

I think two main things affected the Dunn's pay cut. The economy, and a new emphasis on defense with all GM's.

Clearly the economy had a big effect. Nearly every team is reducing payroll and going with talent from within instead of free agents. That decreases demand and lowers prices.

But also I think teams have a better understanding of how much defense means to winning and have better tools to estimate the defensive value of players. This clearly hurt Dunn.

I think it is impossible to say which factor played a bigger role in lowering Dunn's price.

redsfanmia
02-12-2009, 06:00 PM
Could it be that Dunn is not viewed as an elite player and baseball people dont value his skill set? Could his percieved lack of work ethic came back to bite him? Is it strictly the economy? I think its a combination of all the above. I am surprised he got 10 million a year personally.

mlh1981
02-12-2009, 06:03 PM
Adam Dunn has a nice skillset, but should NEVER be the focal point of any team, or else that team won't be sniffing the postseason. He just doesn't have the intangible factors, nor the overall game, to lead a team very far.

I suppose with the relative small length of his contract, he could eventually get shipped midseason to a contender in the next few years assuming the Nats are struggling (one that could take on that money--granted, it's not for very long.)

Nasty_Boy
02-12-2009, 06:49 PM
Next 44... I agree with the Ortiz comments. I knew that Dunn and Howard were almost identical, but Papi had a little bit better overall game at the plate. The fact remains that Dunn isn't worth 10 million less a year than Howard. I think that anyone who looks at Ryan Howard as a productive player and is willing to pay him that kind of coin could get similar production from Dunn for less money in today's current market. That's why I don't buy people saying that Dunn doesn't have a skill set that is valued... I think the problem is the teams that value his skill set (Phillies, Yankees, Red Sox, Tigers, White Sox, A's) already have players under contract at the positions that Dunn can fill (1B, LF,DH). If Dunn shows that he can play a competent 1B and continues to put up big numbers, he will recieve another nice pay day in 2 years. If Milledge and Dukes continue to improve, along with a healthy Zimmerman, Dunn could put up very good numbers yet again. But I disagree that he can't be a focal point or "The Main Guy", nobody can carry a team by themselves for an entire season, even these so called "Main Me" are surrounded by productive players. And please somebody tell me or show me "intagibles".

TheNext44
02-12-2009, 07:18 PM
And please somebody tell me or show me "intagibles".

Nothing gets me madder than baseless accusations that Dunn does not have "intangibles" or is not a "team player", or is a bad clubhouse influence. Outside of Bronson (who has issues of his own), every teammate and every writer covering Dunn loves him and thinks he's a great guy to have in the clubhouse.

I remember last spring how he played practical jokes on Bruce and when he kept interrupting Votto's first ESPN interview. It was hysterical and stuff like that is great for the clubhouse. Dunn has had some great quotes in the past, all very dry, subtle humor, but very funny.

Dunn has some faults in his game, as do all players, but his attitude is not one of them.

Kingspoint
02-12-2009, 07:55 PM
Yeah it is odd.

I mean why would we like a guy who continually plays every day, puts up huge numbers, and keeps his mouth shut without causing problems off the field. What a loser.

Why would we want dunn when we can have Jacque Jones, Johnny Gomes and Daryle Ward getting at bats?

Don't be foolish. Nobody wants any of those 3 guys getting at-bats for the REDS.

Kingspoint
02-12-2009, 07:58 PM
I dont love Tavares at all, I wanted to love Dunn but could not. Dunn did not improve one phase of his game since he has been in the majors, to me thats a problem.
Exactly.

Not wanting Dunn is not an "acceptance" of Tavares. I don't want anything to do with either one of them, unless the team was loaded elsewhere and could afford to bat Dunn 6th or 7th. But, that's not where Baker would bat him. He was always misused in Cincinnati in the lineup. He should have always been batting 2nd, and rarely did that happen. Junior screwed up more things because the primadonna had to be batted 3rd no matter what. Dunn would have been so much better if Junior had never become a RED. Junior's horrific Defense the last 4 years made Dunn's Defense seem worse than it was.

improbus
02-12-2009, 08:48 PM
Nothing gets me madder than baseless accusations that Dunn does not have "intangibles" or is not a "team player", or is a bad clubhouse influence. Outside of Bronson (who has issues of his own), every teammate and every writer covering Dunn loves him and thinks he's a great guy to have in the clubhouse.

I remember last spring how he played practical jokes on Bruce and when he kept interrupting Votto's first ESPN interview. It was hysterical and stuff like that is great for the clubhouse. Dunn has had some great quotes in the past, all very dry, subtle humor, but very funny.

Dunn has some faults in his game, as do all players, but his attitude is not one of them.
The problem with "intangibles" is implied in their names. There aren't something that we can quantify on a message board like this where we don't have direct contact with the players. We can debate numbers and use them to prove points, but we can't do the same with intangibles. However, our inability to debate them doesn't mean that they don't exist. Basketball is all about intangibles and they seem to be much more visible and identifiable. Baseball is more difficult. How do we tell? I wish I had the answer.

Dunn seems like a good guy. He is undeniably funny in interviews and certainly seems to be popular with his teammates, but does that mean he possesses the intangibles that a great player has? Having watched Dunn play hundreds of games, here would be my general assessment. He does not seem like a very intense guy, which doesn't play well in town that idolizes Pete Rose. That does not mean that he is aloof. Greg Maddux wasn't out there fist pumping every time he got an out, but we all know about his competitiveness.

redsfanmia
02-12-2009, 09:54 PM
Nothing gets me madder than baseless accusations that Dunn does not have "intangibles" or is not a "team player", or is a bad clubhouse influence. Outside of Bronson (who has issues of his own), every teammate and every writer covering Dunn loves him and thinks he's a great guy to have in the clubhouse.

I remember last spring how he played practical jokes on Bruce and when he kept interrupting Votto's first ESPN interview. It was hysterical and stuff like that is great for the clubhouse. Dunn has had some great quotes in the past, all very dry, subtle humor, but very funny.

Dunn has some faults in his game, as do all players, but his attitude is not one of them.

Do you play for the Reds? Are you a clubhouse worker? Do you know Adam Dunn personally?

There is a reason that Dunn struggled to find a job and took a 2 year deal for less than he was making. If Dunn was so great in the clubhouse why when asked if the Reds were interested in bringing him back Jocketty danced around the issue and then said they are moving on? If Dunn had such a great work ethic then why is he now "in the best shape of his life"? He is a professional athlete is it not is job to be in great shape? I do not claim to know Dunn or know how he is in the clubhouse so I am not going to say for a fact anything about Dunn but there are obviously issues with him when teams don't even want him at a huge discount.

Captain Hook
02-12-2009, 10:17 PM
I think that it is one thing to be liked by your teammates, have a good personality and give good interviews.Then it is a completely different thing to be a good leader or even just set the kind of example that translates to other guys doing the kind of things that it takes to make a good team.I work with a lot of guys that are funny as hell and that everybody loves but I would guess that the boss wouldn't mind seeing them take a hike because they set a bad example.

I'm not saying that Dunn is one of these guys and I'm not saying he isn't.Just making a point.

TheNext44
02-12-2009, 10:26 PM
Do you play for the Reds? Are you a clubhouse worker? Do you know Adam Dunn personally?

There is a reason that Dunn struggled to find a job and took a 2 year deal for less than he was making. If Dunn was so great in the clubhouse why when asked if the Reds were interested in bringing him back Jocketty danced around the issue and then said they are moving on? If Dunn had such a great work ethic then why is he now "in the best shape of his life"? He is a professional athlete is it not is job to be in great shape? I do not claim to know Dunn or know how he is in the clubhouse so I am not going to say for a fact anything about Dunn but there are obviously issues with him when teams don't even want him at a huge discount.

I made references to things that any Reds fan could know, that his teammates and those who cover the Reds think he's a great guy. That says a lot to me.

In terms of why teams did not want to give him the money he wanted, if you include his defense, Dunn is worth around $5.3M a year, according to FanGraphs. http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=lf&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=6&season=2008&month=0

Not saying that is 100% accurate, but that could explain why GM"s did not want to give him $10M a year.

Dunn was my favorite Reds, but even I knew that he is a flawed player. He cost the team runs on defense, and he is toast once you get two strikes on him. That lowers his value to a team enough to not want to pay him top dollar.

Maybe some GM's didn't like his attitude, but I think his actual production played a much bigger role in deciding his value. At least I hope so.

JBChance
02-12-2009, 10:44 PM
He cost the team runs on defense, and he is toast once you get two strikes on him. That lowers his value to a team enough to not want to pay him top dollar.

That's probably why he's a National and not a Dodger.

He is reported to be going to 1B. I wonder if now he realizes the merits of him moving there. I wish we would have given it more of a go, once Casey was traded. I could never decide if that was a team or a Dunn decision.

Stephenk29
02-12-2009, 11:00 PM
I think the economy is taking its toll more than any of use want to admit. Why else would it take Abreau so long to get a contract then only sign for 5 million to the moneybags in LA? It could be teams simply don't have the money, or its the fact owners don't want to jeopardize their annual profit returns. Whatever it is its taking its actually happening. What did Burrell get? 9 Million a year? Sounds about right that Dunn had to wait it out just to settle on the Nats.

mlh1981
02-12-2009, 11:29 PM
Dunn's "intangibles are great if he's the 2-3rd best player on your team, but something about his whole auro and demeanor don't suggest that he could lead a team of 25. Yeah, I do realize that all parts have to be clicking on a baseball team for things to work out, but Dunn really isn't the "rah-rah" guy and he doesn't really do the little things when they need to be done. He kinda just goes out there, does his job, and goes home. He might be a hard worker and all, but does he love the game of baseball?

gedred69
02-12-2009, 11:31 PM
Nothing gets me madder than baseless accusations that Dunn does not have "intangibles" or is not a "team player", or is a bad clubhouse influence. Outside of Bronson (who has issues of his own), every teammate and every writer covering Dunn loves him and thinks he's a great guy to have in the clubhouse.

I remember last spring how he played practical jokes on Bruce and when he kept interrupting Votto's first ESPN interview. It was hysterical and stuff like that is great for the clubhouse. Dunn has had some great quotes in the past, all very dry, subtle humor, but very funny.

Dunn has some faults in his game, as do all players, but his attitude is not one of them.

Some of those "practical jokes" Dunn pulled on Bruce were, as has been said, mean-spirited, and rather abusive. Nobody laughed. More like vicious frat hazing. When Bruce came to GABP in Sept. '07 to accept his Minor League Player of the Year Award, Dunn tried to belittle Bruce for wearing a suit. "I just wore my regular clothes when I got mine", says Dunn. Bruce answers, "Really? Was that the Player of the Year for the entire Minor Leagues"?

I'm led to believe it was "on" for Dunn inre Bruce after that.

OGB
02-13-2009, 12:07 AM
I think Dunn is doomed to forever play on losing teams. While he was an idiot for making them publicly, JP Riccardi's comments about Dunn were probably pretty close to reality.
I realize its a "heard it through the grapevine" situation but someone I know told me that they got to know Randy Whistler pretty well while he was here and that he'd talk to him candidly about baseball. He told him that Dunn and Kearns had poor work ethics and were more concerned about drinking and chasing tail than working out and becoming better ballplayers.

I figured the only way Dunn would get more than $6 million or so would be if Old Leatherpants overpaid for him. Oh well, it should be fun to beat our old retreads several times this year.

Nasty_Boy
02-13-2009, 12:24 AM
Sean Casey + Rah Rah = 0 playoff appearances

Leadership is BS... Talent wins! Not to mention the Reds have had one of the worst 2-3 pitching staffs this decade.

Abusive? Hazing? Are you serious?! The guys that covered him and the guys he played with all had great things to say about him. Even Castellini remarked "I love Adam Dunn"... The only negative I have ever heard or read about AD was from Daugherty and Marty. Two people that aren't exactly Bill James.

Captain Hook
02-13-2009, 02:00 AM
Sean Casey + Rah Rah = 0 playoff appearances

Leadership is BS... Talent wins! Not to mention the Reds have had one of the worst 2-3 pitching staffs this decade.

Abusive? Hazing? Are you serious?! The guys that covered him and the guys he played with all had great things to say about him. Even Castellini remarked "I love Adam Dunn"... The only negative I have ever heard or read about AD was from Daugherty and Marty. Two people that aren't exactly Bill James.

I think that it is one thing to be liked by your teammates, have a good personality and give good interviews.Then it is a completely different thing to be a good leader or even just set the kind of example that translates to other guys doing the kind of things that it takes to make a good team.I work with a lot of guys that are funny as hell and that everybody loves but I would guess that the boss wouldn't mind seeing them take a hike because they set a bad example.

I'm not saying that Dunn is one of these guys and I'm not saying he isn't.Just making a point.

Captain Hook
02-13-2009, 02:32 AM
I have never had any major issues with Dunn.It can be said that he was liked by most(players,coaches,media,fans and front office).He put up good numbers year after year.It can easily be said that Dunn was the least of the Reds problems during his tenure with the team.

However there does seem to be something that has caused contending team to stay away.The point that I have made is the only explanation I can come up with.I do not know anything about how Dunn went about doing his job other then the numbers he put up.If, and I do mean if he was able to put those numbers up with out the focus and hard work that is required by most then he could have set an example that front offices frown upon.It is possible for the smartest guy in the class to be the class clown, get an A and cause everyone else to fail.

I know I'm reaching a bit here.Just offering an opinion.

Nasty_Boy
02-13-2009, 02:39 AM
Contending teams didn't stay away. They just didn't make as big an offer as Washington. We don't know what kind of offers were out there... Abreu took an offer that he probably had from a few different teams. Dunn's Washington offer had been on the table since December but it wasn't made public until a week or so ago. He could have very easily had offer's similar to Abreu's from the LA clubs and Atlanta among others. Also there were many similar players in this free agent market, that took early deals such as Burrell and Ibanez. He was running out of teams where he was a fit.

Captain Hook
02-13-2009, 02:55 AM
Contending teams didn't stay away. They just didn't make as big an offer as Washington. We don't know what kind of offers were out there... Abreu took an offer that he probably had from a few different teams. Dunn's Washington offer had been on the table since December but it wasn't made public until a week or so ago. He could have very easily had offer's similar to Abreu's from the LA clubs and Atlanta among others. Also there were many similar players in this free agent market, that took early deals such as Burrell and Ibanez. He was running out of teams where he was a fit.

Regardless of what kind of deals were out there contenders chose other guys that are in most cases older or injury prone.At no point during the off season was Dunn mentioned as any contending teams first option.Only as a back up plan and even sometimes that they were flat out not interested.Its just hard to imagine a guy Dunn's age with the numbers he has put up not being one of the most sought after free agents.I know the contract he got was a decent one considering what has gone on in the market this year but it is with one of if not the worst teams in baseball.

I stand by what I say about contenders staying away from Dunn.

Nasty_Boy
02-13-2009, 12:18 PM
It's not as if Dunn had no other offers. Both the Angels and Dodgers were thought to have interest in him, as were the Atlanta Braves. Dunn's agent, Greg Genske, did not confirm any other offers, saying only that "there were other offers for good money, in good markets."



This was in today's Washington Post. Also over in the ORG there is a quote about him turning down 1 year offers or offers to only DH. Obviously these offers were for less money than the deal he recieved from the Nats... But the fact remains, you don't know who offered him what.

DannyB
02-13-2009, 02:24 PM
I bet he hits 40 homers and knocks in 100:)

redsfanmia
02-13-2009, 04:47 PM
Sean Casey + Rah Rah = 0 playoff appearances

Leadership is BS... Talent wins! Not to mention the Reds have had one of the worst 2-3 pitching staffs this decade.

Abusive? Hazing? Are you serious?! The guys that covered him and the guys he played with all had great things to say about him. Even Castellini remarked "I love Adam Dunn"... The only negative I have ever heard or read about AD was from Daugherty and Marty. Two people that aren't exactly Bill James.

I take it you have never played team sports.

Nasty_Boy
02-13-2009, 05:09 PM
Only 4 years of college baseball. Most of us didn't care for rah-rah guys. Sometimes it was fake and sometimes it was annoying. I think that you play hard, you pull for your teammates, you congradulate them when they do something well, and you smack their rear and tell'em get'em next time when they struggle. If everyone does their job and and you worry doing your job and playing hard, you don't need a guy in the dugout barking at everyone.

redsfanmia
02-13-2009, 05:25 PM
Only 4 years of college baseball. Most of us didn't care for rah-rah guys. Sometimes it was fake and sometimes it was annoying. I think that you play hard, you pull for your teammates, you congradulate them when they do something well, and you smack their rear and tell'em get'em next time when they struggle. If everyone does their job and and you worry doing your job and playing hard, you don't need a guy in the dugout barking at everyone.

I actually agree with you on the rah-rah guys thing, I hated the kiss up rah-rah guys, but that said you have to have guys who will call out other guys for dogging it etc.

Nasty_Boy
02-13-2009, 06:00 PM
I don't think so, but that's a difference of opinion. That's also a coaches job. The point I'm making is you can have all of the "Sean Casey leadership school" guys you want, but you need to have talent because heart and "calling guys out" doesn't win ballgames over a 162 game season.

redsfanmia
02-13-2009, 06:25 PM
I don't think so, but that's a difference of opinion. That's also a coaches job. The point I'm making is you can have all of the "Sean Casey leadership school" guys you want, but you need to have talent because heart and "calling guys out" doesn't win ballgames over a 162 game season.

I dont think Sean was a leader, Sean is a good guy. I think Larkin was a leader, I think Tony Perez was a leader, I think Derek Jeter is a leader. I think what my point really is that the best players on the team have to buy into what the manager/coaching staff is trying to do and for some reason I dont think Dunn and Griffey bought into the plan and had their own agenda to the detriment on the team. I think the fact that it took Dunn gaining free agency and or getting traded to be motivated to get into the best shape of his life. I dont think he is a bad guy I just think he had his own agenda while he was here.

thatcoolguy_22
02-13-2009, 07:41 PM
David Ortiz.... and Adam Dunn.. you actually compared their hitting ability?

one is a career .287 hitter.. with 36 homers and 120 rbi's..
Howard is a career .279 hitter.. with 50 homers and 141 rbi's..
dunn is a career .247 hitter.. with 40 homers and 96 rbi's...

the rbi's is a correlation with who he is around.. but to tell me that one of the most clutch hitters of our time.. is even comparable to dunn.. thats not an equal comparison at all... Howard.. except for the k's nothing else is comparable there either..

Player-OBP/SLG% (career)

Dunn- .381/.518
Texeria- .378/.541
Howard- .380/.590
Ortiz- .401/.543

Dunn is one of my favorite players but its fairly clear Dunn is not on the same level as the other 3. He is a 2nd tier superstar IMO. Last year Ortiz missed a lot of time and played injured and, he still managed to OPS .877. The 3 years previous Ortiz went 1.001, 1.049 and, 1.066. Dunn has not and will (probably) never put up a 3 year year run like this. Also from Ortiz from 03-08 Ortiz played for the following: 1.3, 4.6, 5.3, 6.5, 13.3, 13.0. He is definitely worth the payroll increase over Dunner. Texeria is projected for about a .900 OPS this year and I would rather have Dunn and the additional 12.5 million. However, Tex's bat is not weighed down by a putrid glove. He totes a career UZR/150 of 2.7 @ 1B where as Dunn has a whopping -11.1 in LF. I'm still curious to see how he picks up 1B in spring training. I would take Dunn at 10 over Howard at 18. Howard is projected for a .950+ OPS in 2009 and he has a 1.0 UZR/150 for his career. But the additional 8 million (if used correctly) could easily shore up other holes on my hypothetical team.



That's probably why he's a National and not a Dodger.

He is reported to be going to 1B. I wonder if now he realizes the merits of him moving there. I wish we would have given it more of a go, once Casey was traded. I could never decide if that was a team or a Dunn decision.

It was a team decision. Adam Dunn did not play in the WBC so he could get to spring training sooner and work on playing 1B. Later in the Spring we signed Hatteburg and Dunn went back to LF.



I think Dunn is doomed to forever play on losing teams. While he was an idiot for making them publicly, JP Riccardi's comments about Dunn were probably pretty close to reality.
I realize its a "heard it through the grapevine" situation but someone I know told me that they got to know Randy Whistler pretty well while he was here and that he'd talk to him candidly about baseball. He told him that Dunn and Kearns had poor work ethics and were more concerned about drinking and chasing tail than working out and becoming better ballplayers.

I figured the only way Dunn would get more than $6 million or so would be if Old Leatherpants overpaid for him. Oh well, it should be fun to beat our old retreads several times this year.


Well my Uncle's cousin has a wife who went through 37 hours of labor and while there the cousin talked to a doctor and his daughter dated the priest of Adam Dunn and he said that Dunn's lack of work ethic is just a misconceived notion. We can't prove it either way...


It shouldn't be too tough to beat our retreads considering their horrid pitching staff.



I take it you have never played team sports.
When a team that has no talent but high rah rah spirit wins a championship they say, "Congratulations are in order for the girls on the 12 and under championship softball team!" Whats the point? Also when no talnt teams beat dominating teams ripe with talent they make movies about it. Theres a reason why the same few teams are always in the chase. The Yankees or Angels are not very Rah Rah but they possess talent in bundles.




the link (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/fantasy/02/12/mockdraft.clicks/index.html)


Now that Adam Dunn has found a home with the Nationals ... my Clicks bet from last week is officially on: Assuming Dunn makes it through the season relatively injury-free, I will make a gentleman's bet with the world that he'll finish with 38-41 HRs, 98-103 RBIs AND 7-8 stolen bases. If I am wrong on ANY of the above predictions ... I promise to eat nothing but Golden Grahams (the only mainstream breakfast cereal that I dislike) the week leading up to my wedding, from Sept. 27 to Oct. 3 (save the rehearsal dinner).

This really has nothing to do with anything but someone who puts faith in Dunn's consistency. Its a crazy wager and to try and be so precise is nutty. I like it

CesarGeronimo
02-14-2009, 12:09 AM
when no talnt teams beat dominating teams ripe with talent they make movies about it.

Umm, I thought "taint" was something else . . .

thatcoolguy_22
02-14-2009, 12:21 AM
Umm, I thought "taint" was something else . . .

:D haha as far as typos go... :D

Nasty_Boy
02-14-2009, 12:26 AM
I think Larkin was a leader

Larkin was a great player, but he had some very selfish moments in his career where people could draw other conclusions. Another point is the guys that played with Dunn (Larkin included) called him a leader and a great teammate.

And I'm not sure the team ever had a plan for Dunn and Jr to be a detriment to... Also Dunn's fitness was good enough to play in 155+ games a year while being the best player on his team for year, many of which he played hurt. I also don't blame a guy for having his own agenda when the front office didn't have an agenda to improve the team. All I want out of a player is to show up every day, play hard, and produce/do their job... IMO, Dunn was the definition of a professional and a teammate.

Jack Burton
02-14-2009, 04:20 PM
I heard the Dunn interview on hot stove the other day and wow, the guy can barely complete a full sentence. Um, uh, what, err....Lose the marbles buddy. Congrats on the signing, have fun in the cellar.