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Mario-Rijo
02-12-2009, 01:57 PM
John Thornton has his own blog, don't know how many of you knew about this. However he offers his opinion on what to do at #6. I am posting it in part because I happen to agree with most of what he is saying. However I do find it interesting that he even has an opinion since he is a FA and has time on his hands to worry about the Bengals. A silent promise from the Bengals to bring him back or is he retiring or what? He certainly doesn't sound like someone who expects to be on another team in a few weeks/months. I think he'll be back to backup Sims & Peko.

That is however a side note to this as I am interested in talking more about the selection. Like I said I agree with him for the most part but have other reasons as well for not going OT in the 1st, unless of course the one guy who is a consensus (among "gurus") top 10 pick drops to us in Andre Smith. All the other OT's are seemingly post top 10 selections let alone #6. Anyway here is his opinion.

John Thornton Blog (http://bengalscentral.typepad.com/my_weblog/2009/02/decisions-descisions.html)


February 10, 2009
And with the 6th pick.......
I was talking to a buddy(NFL employee) today about a topic he heard on some local sportstalk shows here in Cincinnati. He was pretty irritated because fans here in Cincinnati were opposed to taking a WR with the 6th pick in the NFL Draft. We got into a pretty good debate about who we thought the team should take with the pick. In the middle of the conversation I said that I wished I had a recorder to put this on my website. It was pretty good. Anyway, I will bring you bits and pieces of the debate and you can chime in to let me know what you think. Today's debate is going to be the case of drafting an Offensive Tackle with the 6th pick.


My take? I'm not in favor of it. Here's why. As of right now, the Bengals would line up Anthony Collins at LT. Andrew Whitworth at LG. The center position is open and will be a position that gets upgraded. Bobbie Williams holds down the RG position, and the RT position is vacant due to the knee injury to Stacey Andrews. And he is a free agent so who knows if the Bengals will offer him a contract. So you have two spots open on the OL. I'm not in favor of filling either of those spots with the sixth pick in the draft. Why? Because if you are going to draft a RT in that spot, he better be good enough to start right away. And not only good enough to start, but be able to play in this division and block these 3-4 defenses. The 6th pick is just too high to pick someone based on need. So, assuming that RT is the position the Bengals are going to be looking for, then they should wait until after round one to find that guy. I believe Anthony Collins is good enough and hungry enough to be the guy at LT for the Bengals so I'm not so sure that they will be looking to replace him.


Looking at playoff teams Right Tackles and where they were drafted.

Ravens- Willie Anderson (1st-10th pick)


Steelers- Willie Colon (6th)


Colts- Ryan Diem (4th)


Titans- Dave Stewart (4th)


Chargers- Jeromy Clary (6th)


Dolphins- Vernon Carey (1st-19th pick)


Cardinals- Levi Brown (1st-5th pick)


Panthers- Jeff Otah (1st-19th pick)


Eagles- Jon Runyan (4th)


Giants- Kareem McKenzie (3rd)


Vikings- Ryan Cook (2nd)


Falcons- Tyson Clabo (undrafted)

Redsfaithful
02-12-2009, 04:08 PM
That actually makes sense to me, but if they don't take a tackle then they need to go defense. I'm starting to think Maualuga might be the best case scenario. I will be pretty irritated if they actually take Crabtree, even though I think he'll be a great NFL player.

BuckeyeRedleg
02-12-2009, 05:37 PM
They better trade down if they want Maualuga, otherwise they are wasting their draft position.

I wish Marvin and Mikey put as much thought into the draft that Thornton does.

Mario-Rijo
02-12-2009, 06:48 PM
They better trade down if they want Maualuga, otherwise they are wasting their draft position.

I wish Marvin and Mikey put as much thought into the draft that Thornton does.

I have a feeling Maualuga will rise by the time the draft gets here. The cream has a way of rising to the top more often than not. But if he doesn't I wouldn't mind them trading back in the draft to get him if they were intent on doing so. Plus they could add some picks in a draft that is very, very deep.

Basically I don't care how they do it just that they do it, if they feel the same way about him as I do. Is he the 6th best player in this draft or the 15th, 20th, 25th? I happen to feel he is much closer to the #6 player in the draft regardless of draft day "value". The gurus want you to draft according to what said player is worth today and not what he is realistically likely to be 5, 10 yrs from now. They want you to put a ceiling on every guy and draft according to it, which is why we always see so many reaches (busts) in the top 10 (at least in hindsight). What I say is get some foresight and figure out in advance that Rey is the 6th-9th (or better) best/most valuable player in the draft, and then go draft him.

BuckeyeRedleg
02-12-2009, 06:53 PM
I agree. He's a stud. I just have seen him ranked towards the bottom of the 1st. I wouldn't be surprised if he moves up as well. He and Rivers would make for a dominating pair of LB's.

WMR
02-12-2009, 07:23 PM
Even if it is technically a "reach" in the eyes of the "experts", I'd rather draft a guy like Rey who you know will be quality for many seasons to come.

I too believe Rey's stock will rise b/f draft day.

Would I feel confident that he'll still be on the board if we traded down to, say, #15? No, I wouldn't, and how much would we gain from dropping those nine spots and is it worth it if we lose out on the top-end player that we really want?

Danny Serafini
02-12-2009, 07:41 PM
Interesting that Thornton didn't even mention Levi Jones in that OL discussion.

WVRed
02-13-2009, 12:09 AM
I've not been on the Rey bandwagon for two reasons:

1. We spent a pick last year at linebacker. I liked the Rivers pick since Sedrick Ellis and Glenn Dorsey were off the board and we needed the best available defensive player we could get.

2. Linebacker on defense in the NFL is the equivalent of a wideout on offense. They are good to have, but for the most part are a dime a dozen.

If the Bengals are going to throw away a pick on a player not likely to make an impact in turning the team around, they might as well draft Crabtree. At least with Chad and TJ likely gone Carson will need somebody to throw to.

Mario-Rijo
02-13-2009, 02:23 PM
I've not been on the Rey bandwagon for two reasons:

1. We spent a pick last year at linebacker. I liked the Rivers pick since Sedrick Ellis and Glenn Dorsey were off the board and we needed the best available defensive player we could get.

2. Linebacker on defense in the NFL is the equivalent of a wideout on offense. They are good to have, but for the most part are a dime a dozen.

If the Bengals are going to throw away a pick on a player not likely to make an impact in turning the team around, they might as well draft Crabtree. At least with Chad and TJ likely gone Carson will need somebody to throw to.

This is where we disagree, LB's are the playmakers of the NFL game. Yes all parts are important but if you are soild and sound both in front of and behind them then it allows those LB's to show off their skillset which is when plays start being made. You really don't get a good sense of how important they are until you are solid everywhere else. That said the front 4 isn't the best however the current DL has 4 starting players which means that's who we are going with. The secondary is also solid, time to put another LB into the mix and one who is an impact player. This is the type of intimidator that you build a defense around. Basically the Samoan Ray Lewis.

Mario-Rijo
02-13-2009, 02:24 PM
Even if it is technically a "reach" in the eyes of the "experts", I'd rather draft a guy like Rey who you know will be quality for many seasons to come.

I too believe Rey's stock will rise b/f draft day.

Would I feel confident that he'll still be on the board if we traded down to, say, #15? No, I wouldn't, and how much would we gain from dropping those nine spots and is it worth it if we lose out on the top-end player that we really want?

Honestly I don't think he'd be there at #15 but if he were yeah it would be well worth it. 9 spots from #6 to #15 would get you at least a 2nd and a 4th I'm thinking.

LoganBuck
02-13-2009, 03:00 PM
WMR, I have to disagree with you about the LB position. It all starts up front. Run stuffing DTs and pass rushing DEs, that is where the playmakers reside. I like Maualuga, but I don't want to spend a top 6 pick on him, when you have players available that fill needs, and likely qualify as best player available as well. I would rather have an OT with the first pick, and James Laurinitis with the second pick, provided he slides, than Maualuga and the Bengals typical crapshoot of a second round pick.

The NFL breaks down to two things:
1. Protect your quarterback
2. Get the other team's quarterback

Hoosier Red
02-13-2009, 03:42 PM
I'm officially on the BJ Raji bandwagon. I really think Raji, Sims, Peko would be a pretty damn good rotation and would help to make everyone else on the defense better.

Mario-Rijo
02-13-2009, 04:09 PM
WMR, I have to disagree with you about the LB position. It all starts up front. Run stuffing DTs and pass rushing DEs, that is where the playmakers reside. I like Maualuga, but I don't want to spend a top 6 pick on him, when you have players available that fill needs, and likely qualify as best player available as well. I would rather have an OT with the first pick, and James Laurinitis with the second pick, provided he slides, than Maualuga and the Bengals typical crapshoot of a second round pick.

The NFL breaks down to two things:
1. Protect your quarterback
2. Get the other team's quarterback

Well I think you meant to respond too me. I agree that it starts up front but LB's are nearly as important. These are the only guys on the field who consistently have to rush the passer/tackle/cover. When your DL can keep lineman off them and the secondary covers well then these guys are the ones that have the opportunity to create turnovers. I think you can do fine without great LB's and you can't without a DL, however when you have both it breeds an environment of opportunity.

The only DL that IMO is even close to being worthy at that pick is Raji and maybe Maybin (who might eventually be an excellent DE or 3-4 OLB). Not only that but we already have all 4 starters accross the DL and we are a bit long in the tooth at and/or short talent at MLB. Now that said I wouldn't mind Raji if they think he will work once he gets paid (I'm not so sure) because he's one heck of a player when he's working for it. But so was Big Daddy once upon a time. Rey is a bit safer but he's one of the most safe/high impact types I have ever seen in the draft.

Of course if they decide to go offense then more power to them but I just don't think any of the OT's are as sure a bet as Rey and hopefully we won't pick a WR or RB that high.

Highlifeman21
02-14-2009, 09:06 AM
Even if it is technically a "reach" in the eyes of the "experts", I'd rather draft a guy like Rey who you know will be quality for many seasons to come.

I too believe Rey's stock will rise b/f draft day.

Would I feel confident that he'll still be on the board if we traded down to, say, #15? No, I wouldn't, and how much would we gain from dropping those nine spots and is it worth it if we lose out on the top-end player that we really want?

What, too lazy to type "before", WMR?

Here I am scanning thru posts and I see "b/f draft day" and I'm asking myself "What the heck does a boyfriend have to do with draft day?"

Nice job, ya got me...

WVRed
02-14-2009, 10:00 AM
Well I think you meant to respond too me. I agree that it starts up front but LB's are nearly as important. These are the only guys on the field who consistently have to rush the passer/tackle/cover. When your DL can keep lineman off them and the secondary covers well then these guys are the ones that have the opportunity to create turnovers. I think you can do fine without great LB's and you can't without a DL, however when you have both it breeds an environment of opportunity.

The only DL that IMO is even close to being worthy at that pick is Raji and maybe Maybin (who might eventually be an excellent DE or 3-4 OLB). Not only that but we already have all 4 starters accross the DL and we are a bit long in the tooth at and/or short talent at MLB. Now that said I wouldn't mind Raji if they think he will work once he gets paid (I'm not so sure) because he's one heck of a player when he's working for it. But so was Big Daddy once upon a time. Rey is a bit safer but he's one of the most safe/high impact types I have ever seen in the draft.

Of course if they decide to go offense then more power to them but I just don't think any of the OT's are as sure a bet as Rey and hopefully we won't pick a WR or RB that high.

We have the starters, but for the most part the talent simply isn't there. Odom and Geathers aren't exactly passrush specialists. Sims is pretty much wait and see and Peko could probably flourish in a 3/4 scheme.

I agree with you on linebacker being a weakness, especially when you consider Jeanty and Dhani Jones are our starters there, but IMO we could likely find somebody in the second or third round that could provide a solid impact.

WMR
02-14-2009, 01:44 PM
What, too lazy to type "before", WMR?

Here I am scanning thru posts and I see "b/f draft day" and I'm asking myself "What the heck does a boyfriend have to do with draft day?"

Nice job, ya got me...

Freud would have something very interesting to say about where your mind is at, HLman. :D

Tony Cloninger
02-15-2009, 10:38 PM
IF LB's are a dime a dozen....why is it the bengals seem to always draft or sign mostly pennies worth of LB's?

When they went back to the 3-4 back when DL came back to be DC in 1997....this team could not draft or develop anyone in the LB position....and the defense stunk again with Dick here. He goes to PITT and their defenses are some of the best ever......during 1992-96 era and now during his 2nd stint.

That too me also explains in a nutshell the differences between those 2 teams...who have employed the same DC at various times since 1984.

Look up the defensive stats of the Bengals from 1984-91 and 1997-2000 and the Steelers from 1992-96 and 2003 until the present.

WVRed
02-15-2009, 11:25 PM
IF LB's are a dime a dozen....why is it the bengals seem to always draft or sign mostly pennies worth of LB's?

When they went back to the 3-4 back when DL came back to be DC in 1997....this team could not draft or develop anyone in the LB position....and the defense stunk again with Dick here. He goes to PITT and their defenses are some of the best ever......during 1992-96 era and now during his 2nd stint.

That too me also explains in a nutshell the differences between those 2 teams...who have employed the same DC at various times since 1984.

Look up the defensive stats of the Bengals from 1984-91 and 1997-2000 and the Steelers from 1992-96 and 2003 until the present.

I wouldn't necessarily call Brian Simmons and Takeo Spikes penniesworth of linebackers.

That being said, it's more about development than anything. Teams like the Steelers are good at developing their type of players to fit their system.

Lance Briggs, Lofa Tatupu, and Cato June are linebackers who have been drafted outside of the first round as well.

DTCromer
02-16-2009, 01:58 AM
I've said since November Michael Crabtree will be the 6th pick if he's still there. I think outside of C, the coaching staff likes the OL they already have on the roster.

Mario-Rijo
02-16-2009, 02:11 AM
I wouldn't necessarily call Brian Simmons and Takeo Spikes penniesworth of linebackers.

That being said, it's more about development than anything. Teams like the Steelers are good at developing their type of players to fit their system.

Lance Briggs, Lofa Tatupu, and Cato June are linebackers who have been drafted outside of the first round as well.

Briggs and Cato are only LB's in a cover 2 defense or at least they were drafted that way. They are smaller faster LB's that fit that scheme but at the time they were drafted were not fits for most clubs at LB.

WVRed
02-16-2009, 10:46 AM
I've said since November Michael Crabtree will be the 6th pick if he's still there. I think outside of C, the coaching staff likes the OL they already have on the roster.

Can't see it.

Levi=injury prone. Hasn't been the same for awhile.
Whitworth=solid. Probably the best of what we have right now.
Ghiachuic=gone. Thank God.
Bobbie Williams=getting long in the tooth.
Stacy Andrews=now an injury concern.

Take Andre Smith or Michael Oher if one of them falls and move Andrews to guard if he is healthy or release Levi.

Tony Cloninger
02-16-2009, 12:30 PM
This organization spent the early to middle 90's thinking their OL was fine also.

Since Mike is still here along with his family....they probably feel that was now as well...and stupidly so.

They always depended on McNally to turns (crap) into salad.....so they drafted these really bad OL just beacuse they practiced well or looked good in the combines. It was not until 1995-96 that they finally started re-addressing this issue.

Boss-Hog
02-16-2009, 01:01 PM
Can't see it.

Levi=injury prone. Hasn't been the same for awhile.
Whitworth=solid. Probably the best of what we have right now.
Ghiachuic=gone. Thank God.
Bobbie Williams=getting long in the tooth.
Stacy Andrews=now an injury concern.

Take Andre Smith or Michael Oher if one of them falls and move Andrews to guard if he is healthy or release Levi.
I agree that O-Line desperately needs to be addressed (preferably in the first round), but you neglected to mention Anthony Collins, who will be starting somewhere along the line next year.

Redsfaithful
02-16-2009, 05:44 PM
It wouldn't surprise me if they see Collins as their LT next year.

WVRed
02-16-2009, 11:00 PM
It wouldn't surprise me if they see Collins as their LT next year.

or RT, assuming they do nothing.

I forgot to mention Collins, but I was looking more at last years line. It wouldn't hurt my feelings to take Smith/Oher and then take a Max Unger or another center in the second round.

WVRed
02-17-2009, 05:00 PM
http://profootball.scout.com/2/839933.html

Some interesting comparisons (players the Bengals are or should be interested in):

Michael Oher to Orlando Pace
Eugene Monroe to DBrickashaw Ferguson
Everette Brown to Dwight Freeney (who they have the Bengals picking)
Andre Smith to Shawn Andrews
BJ Raji to Kevin Williams
Rey Maualuga to Lofa Tatupu
Jason Smith to Jamaal Brown
Brian Orapko to Tamba Hali

Newport Red
02-17-2009, 06:25 PM
I've said since November Michael Crabtree will be the 6th pick if he's still there. I think outside of C, the coaching staff likes the OL they already have on the roster.

If the Bengals don't like someone who plays in a three point stance at 6, I'd trade down for an additional 2nd round pick. If they can get another 2nd round pick plus for Chad, trade him. That gives them 4 picks in the top 50 or so. This is by all accounts a deep draft this year. This gives Marvin an excellent opportunity to re-make the Bengals again.

Hopefully, he does it from the lines on out.

WVRed
02-23-2009, 11:09 PM
For those wanting Rey at no 6, talk is that teams have been unimpressed with his decision making and that he has likely fallen to late in the first round.

Redsfaithful
02-24-2009, 05:23 AM
Weird how much things can change from the end of college football to the draft, despite none of these guys playing a down of football. Doesn't always make a lot of sense to me.

LoganBuck
02-24-2009, 04:24 PM
Weird how much things can change from the end of college football to the draft, despite none of these guys playing a down of football. Doesn't always make a lot of sense to me.

What gets me is the 40 yard dash. Some of these kids go to track specialists and learn to run with the best form. Much of that time comes from how fast they come out of their stance. Maualuga and Laurinaitis didn't come out of their stances cleanly and they were "slow" each in at around 4.8. Maualuga may have hurt himself as well as he seemed to pull up as he finished his 40. Marcus Freeman who isn't half the player either of them are runs a 4.67 and is labeled fast.

Yachtzee
02-25-2009, 12:26 AM
What gets me is the 40 yard dash. Some of these kids go to track specialists and learn to run with the best form. Much of that time comes from how fast they come out of their stance. Maualuga and Laurinaitis didn't come out of their stances cleanly and they were "slow" each in at around 4.8. Maualuga may have hurt himself as well as he seemed to pull up as he finished his 40. Marcus Freeman who isn't half the player either of them are runs a 4.67 and is labeled fast.

I think the combine is overrated as an evaluation tool. If your team drafts someone solely off their combine results, they are really setting themselves up. If I were a GM, I would have scouts checking their times and performance over multiple trials conducted weeks apart from each other to determine whether the combine results are a fluke. I also think the combine does little to show on-field decision making. GMs who salivate over combine times are kind of like Jim Bowden and his fascination with 5-toolers. Sure, they have the naturability to play, but they don't always have the smarts to put it together (Wonderlic scores notwithstanding).

WVRed
02-25-2009, 12:35 AM
I think the combine is overrated as an evaluation tool. If your team drafts someone solely off their combine results, they are really setting themselves up. If I were a GM, I would have scouts checking their times and performance over multiple trials conducted weeks apart from each other to determine whether the combine results are a fluke. I also think the combine does little to show on-field decision making. GMs who salivate over combine times are kind of like Jim Bowden and his fascination with 5-toolers. Sure, they have the naturability to play, but they don't always have the smarts to put it together (Wonderlic scores notwithstanding).

Depends on how you use it to evaluate it.

Take wideouts for example, outside of Crabtree, you have Darrius Heyward-Bey, Percy Harvin, and Jeremy Maclin fighting for the next receiver to be taken. I think with DHB's performance, he could be the 2nd or 3rd receiver off the board with his combine performance.