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View Full Version : Willy Taveras in the WBC



Nasty_Boy
03-08-2009, 08:20 PM
I hope this isn't a sign of things to come but his baserunning has been garbage to say the least. He was thrown out trying to steal 3rd down 1 run in the 9th yesterday. Today he ran through a stop sign to get thrown out at the plate. Freel was always great at being a "fast" baserunner, but not a good baserunner and I hope that Willy isn't from this mold. We don't need a guy that takes chances and risks and inopportune times. That also scares me about the new speed and defense mold that the manager and the brass are pimping to the fans. I don't want us running just to be running, we need to be about 80-85% for the running game to have a positive impact. It also seems like we haven't been very successful stealing bags this springs... maybe that's not the case.

Does anybody else worry about this? Is it too early to pay this much attention to the running game?

goreds2
03-08-2009, 08:34 PM
I think ALOU (Manager) called the steal of 3rd.

I am hoping Dusty will have a talk with him concerning running through stop signs.

Chris Sabowned
03-08-2009, 09:35 PM
I think ALOU (Manager) called the steal of 3rd.

I am hoping Dusty will have a talk with him concerning running through stop signs.

They said on the air today that Alou claimed he gave no sign, and Tavares stole it on his own.

goreds2
03-08-2009, 09:39 PM
They said on the air today that Alou claimed he gave no sign, and Tavares stole it on his own.


OUCH!

Grounds_Crew
03-08-2009, 10:13 PM
The dude had more than 60 stolen bases last year. I'm pretty sure he knows what he's doing.

OldRed1966
03-08-2009, 10:50 PM
The dude had more than 60 stolen bases last year. I'm pretty sure he knows what he's doing.



If you're getting thrown out at third in the last inning with Hanley Ramirez at the plate then obviously not.

DTCromer
03-08-2009, 10:56 PM
Depends on how many outs there were. If there was 1 out, I see no problem with it.

If there were 0 outs, then that's just plain stupid. If there were 2 outs, then he seriously needed to be banned from playing in the league.

With 1 out, I see no problem trying to get to 3rd base.

OldRed1966
03-08-2009, 11:04 PM
Depends on how many outs there were. If there was 1 out, I see no problem with it.

If there were 0 outs, then that's just plain stupid. If there were 2 outs, then he seriously needed to be banned from playing in the league.

With 1 out, I see no problem trying to get to 3rd base.


I don't care how many outs there were. You don't get thrown out at third base when your down one run in the last inning. You HAVE TO KNOW you can make it. He didn't.

DTCromer
03-08-2009, 11:09 PM
I don't care how many outs there were. You don't get thrown out at third base when your down one run in the last inning. You HAVE TO KNOW you can make it. He didn't.

Do you know how many ways you can score a run when you're on 3rd base with 1 out?

I don't mind the aggressive play.

OldRed1966
03-08-2009, 11:16 PM
Do you know how many ways you can score a run when you're on 3rd base with 1 out?

I don't mind the aggressive play.



Do you know how many ways you can score a run with nobody on base and two out? It's stupid baseball, and any manager will tell you the same. You have to KNOW you can make it, otherwise you don't attempt it.

Nasty_Boy
03-09-2009, 12:28 AM
You are the tying run, it's the 9th inning, you do not run! There is aggressive and then there is over agressive, and Taveras play falls in the later category. Dumb play and I'm afraid we are going to see many innings that get cut short by over aggressive baserunning.

TheNext44
03-09-2009, 01:44 AM
On the bright side, I doubt he will try to run in that situation again, now that he was embarrassed on national TV, and probably got ripped apart in the D.R. over it.

JBChance
03-09-2009, 01:59 AM
You are the tying run, it's the 9th inning, you do not run! There is aggressive and then there is over agressive, and Taveras play falls in the later category. Dumb play and I'm afraid we are going to see many innings that get cut short by over aggressive baserunning.

No doubt, with his self-proclaimed assault on 100 SB, he's going to be extra-aggressive. That could see him running into a lot of outs.

The club will definitely need to get a handle on it.

Slyder
03-09-2009, 02:11 AM
No doubt, with his self-proclaimed assault on 100 SB, he's going to be extra-aggressive. That could see him running into a lot of outs.

The club will definitely need to get a handle on it.

Every CS he has to run a lap, miss played pop up he runs a lap, every weak pop up we'll break our foot off in his bum and then he will proceed to do 20 push ups?

Sorry yes I just watched Remember the Titans and Major League.

JBChance
03-09-2009, 02:22 AM
Can we whip it out, like Lou Brown, and whiz on his contract? :p:

RedLakerFan24
03-09-2009, 03:32 AM
Hey look at the bright side, atleast hes getting onbase

fadetoblack2880
03-09-2009, 03:58 AM
Can we whip it out, like Lou Brown, and whiz on his contract? :p:

least he's willing to get dirty. dorn stunk and didn't wanna play.

goreds2
03-09-2009, 04:36 AM
Hey look at the bright side, atleast hes getting onbase

LOL, very good. :thumbup:

DTCromer
03-09-2009, 08:38 AM
I just see that a lot of people already hate the guy.

This is going to be a fun season.

OldRed1966
03-09-2009, 09:06 AM
I just see that a lot of people already hate the guy.

This is going to be a fun season.



No hate here. It was just a dumb play.

Rusty the Red
03-09-2009, 09:10 AM
Bad call on getting thrown out at 3rd. But he is still a great base stealer.

I think he could be a great addition and hope all of you haters have to eat crow.

xavr1
03-09-2009, 10:57 AM
Its tough to condemn him on the missed sign, even though it seems like a huge bonehead move. These guys are all a little unsure about the Team USA signs, I think. There was an earlier moment in the game when Lindstrom was pitching and he hurled a 98 MPH fastball when Iannetta was expecting a curve. They were lucky it didnt get by and advance the runners.

I'm just saying I'm not ready to call Taveras, a guy with 60 steals last year, a bad baserunner because of two gaffes in a WBC game.

JBChance
03-09-2009, 10:58 AM
I just see that a lot of people already hate the guy.

This is going to be a fun season.

That was just my attempt at humor. I don't hate the guy.

Eric_the_Red
03-09-2009, 11:48 AM
You are the tying run, it's the 9th inning, you do not run! There is aggressive and then there is over agressive, and Taveras play falls in the later category. Dumb play and I'm afraid we are going to see many innings that get cut short by over aggressive baserunning.


Dave Roberts and Terry Fancona disagree.

Ohioballplayer
03-09-2009, 01:02 PM
There was only one out, but they knew that the catcher had a CANNON!!!!!

Total stupidity at the time.

Nasty_Boy
03-09-2009, 01:35 PM
Dave Roberts wasn't in scoring position.

Kingspoint
03-10-2009, 02:34 AM
You are the tying run, it's the 9th inning, you do not run! There is aggressive and then there is over agressive, and Taveras play falls in the later category. Dumb play and I'm afraid we are going to see many innings that get cut short by over aggressive baserunning.

It was a bonehead play that gets you the biggest fine in any Kangaroo Court.

BluegrassRedleg
03-10-2009, 03:31 AM
I don't put a great deal of stock into it at this point. In fact, I WANT him to come to Cincinnati ready to be aggressive, even if that means a few mistakes here and there.

His legs will be fine. I'm much more interested in seeing what his OBP will be.

Nasty_Boy
03-10-2009, 09:44 AM
Aggressiveness at the expense of outs on the basepaths will do this team no good! I want as few mistakes as possible... Hopefully it isn't a sign of things to come.

Eric_the_Red
03-10-2009, 11:00 AM
Last year he stole 68 bases and was caught 7 times. Let's not get carried away by 1 play that happened before the season even started.

Nasty_Boy
03-10-2009, 11:26 AM
I agree with that... but I wonder how much Clint Hurdle put the brakes on him? I can't see Dusty putting the reigns on Taveras if he starts running into outs. I figure he will chalk it up to aggressiveness, even though it tuns into a negative.

redsfandan
03-10-2009, 02:01 PM
I hope this isn't a sign of things to come but his baserunning has been garbage to say the least. He was thrown out trying to steal 3rd down 1 run in the 9th yesterday. Today he ran through a stop sign to get thrown out at the plate. Freel was always great at being a "fast" baserunner, but not a good baserunner and I hope that Willy isn't from this mold. We don't need a guy that takes chances and risks and inopportune times. That also scares me about the new speed and defense mold that the manager and the brass are pimping to the fans. I don't want us running just to be running, we need to be about 80-85% for the running game to have a positive impact. It also seems like we haven't been very successful stealing bags this springs... maybe that's not the case.

Does anybody else worry about this? Is it too early to pay this much attention to the running game?
Did you mean 80-85% as a team? I ask cuz, if so, that's asking alot. Last year there were only two teams that were successful 80+% of the time: Philadelphia at 84% and (ironically enough) Oakland at 81%. Personally I think if a player can be at least 75% successful than I'd give him the green light most of the time. But if any player can't reach 50% (or even 60%) I wouldn't want him running much at all. I'd also limit those players to only when they'll be more successful.

In WT's 4 years in the bigs his low sb% was 75% with the high of 90% last year. If he has something between 75-90% with a half decent obp (.330-.340) I'll be happy. Not thrilled unless he surprises us with his obp but I can live with that.

redhawk61
03-10-2009, 02:24 PM
Did you mean 80-85% as a team? I ask cuz, if so, that's asking alot. Last year there were only two teams that were successful 80+% of the time: Philadelphia at 84% and (ironically enough) Oakland at 81%. Personally I think if a player can be at least 75% successful than I'd give him the green light most of the time. But if any player can't reach 50% (or even 60%) I wouldn't want him running much at all. I'd also limit those players to only when they'll be more successful.

In WT's 4 years in the bigs his low sb% was 75% with the high of 90% last year. If he has something between 75-90% with a half decent obp (.330-.340) I'll be happy. Not thrilled unless he surprises us with his obp but I can live with that.

Completely agree :thumbup:

Nasty_Boy
03-10-2009, 02:26 PM
Yes, 80% as a team. There are times when getting throw out stealing 2nd isn't a terrible thing like with 2 outs in the inning and a high OBP/speedy leadoff type at the plate that can lead off the next inning. I'm fine with the Reds running, but don't run just to run. They need to run with a purpose and keep the situation in mind.

JBChance
03-10-2009, 03:10 PM
Yes, 80% as a team. There are times when getting throw out stealing 2nd isn't a terrible thing like with 2 outs in the inning and a high OBP/speedy leadoff type at the plate that can lead off the next inning. I'm fine with the Reds running, but don't run just to run. They need to run with a purpose and keep the situation in mind.


Well said.


If he has something between 75-90% with a half decent obp (.330-.340) I'll be happy. Not thrilled unless he surprises us with his obp but I can live with that.

FWIW, Taveras' obp for the WBC is .556. He leads the team in walks (3) and is 2 for 6 w/a rbi. Small sample size, competition factor, etc., but, I really like the walks.

If he can keep staying selective at the plate, he'll surprise us.

redsfandan
03-10-2009, 04:07 PM
FWIW, Taveras' obp for the WBC is .556. He leads the team in walks (3) and is 2 for 6 w/a rbi. Small sample size, competition factor, etc., but, I really like the walks.

If he can keep staying selective at the plate, he'll surprise us.

Oh I'd love a leadoff hitter with a .556 obp. ;) But seriously, if he can improve his plate discipline that would be even better. Maybe he can hang out with BP some too. :eek:

TheNext44
03-10-2009, 08:26 PM
Yes, 80% as a team. There are times when getting throw out stealing 2nd isn't a terrible thing like with 2 outs in the inning and a high OBP/speedy leadoff type at the plate that can lead off the next inning. I'm fine with the Reds running, but don't run just to run. They need to run with a purpose and keep the situation in mind.

I completely agree with the second part. Running only makes sense if it is situational. That's why Taveras' blunder was so bad, it did not make sense. His getting to third did little to increase his chances of scoring, especially considering how his getting thrown out severly decreased the teams chances of scoring.

Here is a chart which gives an estimate of the odds of scoring per situation.

http://www.tangotiger.net/RE9902score.html

One note, if you do the math, this chart says that a team needs to steal at a 65% rate or better in order to justify running. But that is a general sense, an average of all situations. Each situation is different.

JBChance
03-11-2009, 12:51 AM
Willy picked up another 3 walks in the loss and bumped his obp up to .615. Ended up with 6 in 3 games. In fact, 6 walks leads the WBC.

Walks are good :thumbup:

No stolen bases, though. Interesting to note that the DR only had one attempt - the one Willy was thrown out on.

TheNext44
03-11-2009, 01:21 AM
Willy picked up another 3 walks in the loss and bumped his obp up to .615. Ended up with 6 in 3 games. In fact, 6 walks leads the WBC.

Walks are good :thumbup:

No stolen bases, though. Interesting to note that the DR only had one attempt - the one Willy was thrown out on.

Whodathunk that Taveras best skill was getting on base an worse one was running the bases????