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Eric_the_Red
03-25-2009, 10:44 AM
So Curt Schilling announced his retirement from baseball (but not from giving his opinion, unfortunately) and the question immediately surfaced, is he a HOFer?

Personally, I would vote no. I don't think of him as an elite player at his position during his era. He was good, and had great post-season success, but I don't think the overall body of work deserves enshrinement in Cooperstown.

Root Down
03-25-2009, 11:01 AM
2007 Season Stats
SPLITS G GS CG SHO IP H R ER HR BB SO W L P/GS WHIP BAA ERA

Season 24 24 1 1 151.0 165 68 65 21 23 101 9 8 94.7 1.25 .275 3.87

Career 569 436 83 20 3261.0 2998 1318 1253 347 711 3116 216 146 37.3 1.14 .243 3.46

Some numbers from ESPN. Schilling pitched 569 games over a 20 year career. He managed to keep some pretty good numbers throughout but I'm not sure they are HOF numbers.

PapaBear
03-25-2009, 04:50 PM
I personally don't think Schilling should get in, but I do think it will be interesting to see whether he does. We all can have our say, but in the end we aren't the ones who vote. I want to see what the voters think a Hall of Fame pitching career should consist of, and I think Schilling will be a good test subject.

ChatterRed
03-25-2009, 05:18 PM
While I think it is definitely debatable. I still think he is a HOFer.

Boston Red
03-25-2009, 05:30 PM
I voted no. The fact that I think he's an arrogant little prick pushed me over the edge to no.

TheNext44
03-26-2009, 02:47 AM
This will be interesting, because the numbers that show how good of a pitcher he was, K's, WHIP, ERA, FIP, all say he should be in the Hall, but Blyleven's plight has shown that the voters look at career wins, and 216 will just not cut it for most of these guys.

I think it is a no brainer, he deserves to go in. He was a dominant pitcher, that stayed great into his late thirties, and who, as his post season numbers show, could be counted on to win the big game.

The one thing that could help him is the bloody sock. Writers love that stuff. It is what got Bill Mazeroski in with his .666 OPS.

Eric_the_Red
03-26-2009, 08:56 AM
I don't think you could categorize Schilling as "dominant". He never won a Cy Young Award, only had 20 wins 3 times (while playing for very good teams), never led the league in ERA, and his win total is already discussed.

According to baseball-reference.com, Kevin Brown is his most similar player and the similarities are striking. Schilling played in 1 more season, has 5 more career wins, and a higher career ERA (3.46 to 3.28). Schilling was very good, but not dominant.

DTCromer
03-26-2009, 09:37 AM
He was truly one of the best pitchers of our ERA.

Eric_the_Red
03-26-2009, 10:11 AM
He was truly one of the best pitchers of our ERA.


Was Kevin Brown a HOFer? If Schilling is, I don't see how you would exclude Brown. (I don't think either deserve in.)

freestyle55
03-26-2009, 10:47 AM
Schilling is a
-3 times runner up in the Cy Young voting
-9 times in the top 10 in ERA
-2 times led the league in K's (9 times in the top 10)
-2 times led the league in wins (5 times in the top 10)
-2 times led the league in lowest WHIP (11 times in the top 10)
-4 times led the league in complete games (11 times in the top 10)
-11 times in the top 10 in shutouts
-6 time all-star
-LCS MVP, WS MVP
-10-2, 2.23 ERA, 0.97 WHIP in 133 postseason innings

goreds2
03-26-2009, 11:16 AM
If Burt Blyleven can't get in (over 280 wins), Schill better not.

Jerome
03-26-2009, 12:31 PM
I voted no. The fact that I think he's an arrogant little prick pushed me over the edge to no.

+1. It makes it harder to root for a first class ******.


http://jeromesredscare.blogspot.com

Root Down
03-26-2009, 01:03 PM
http://cache.boston.com/images/bostondirtdogs//Headline_Archives/CS_ank_bdd_11.7.04.JPG

Try pitching a world series game with this ankle. This doesn't necessarily mean he's HOF caliber, but it definitely shows one tough character.

DaytonFlyer
03-26-2009, 01:21 PM
I was just going to make that my first post... no, he doesn't deserve to get in, but he will because of the stupid bloody ankle game.

Root Down
03-26-2009, 01:36 PM
I was just going to make that my first post... no, he doesn't deserve to get in, but he will because of the stupid bloody ankle game.

Welcome! You have to admit that says something about the man though. Especially when some of these guys miss weeks for sore muscles and he plays putting severe stress on a pretty bad injury. Numbers aren't everything when it comes to the HOF.

Eric_the_Red
03-26-2009, 02:15 PM
Schilling is a
-3 times runner up in the Cy Young voting
-9 times in the top 10 in ERA
-2 times led the league in K's (9 times in the top 10)
-2 times led the league in wins (5 times in the top 10)
-2 times led the league in lowest WHIP (11 times in the top 10)
-4 times led the league in complete games (11 times in the top 10)
-11 times in the top 10 in shutouts
-6 time all-star
-LCS MVP, WS MVP
-10-2, 2.23 ERA, 0.97 WHIP in 133 postseason innings

Kevin Brown is a
-1 time runner up and 1 time 3rd in Cy Young voting
-2 times led the league in ERA (7 times in the top 10 in ERA)
-2 times 2nd in the league in K's (6 times in the top 7)
-1 time led the league in wins (5 times in the top 10)
-2 times led the league in lowest WHIP (7 times in the top 10)
-1 time led the league in shutouts (8 times in the top 10)
-9 times in the top 10 in complete games
-6 time all-star
-6-2, 4.19 ERA, 1.31 WHIP in 81.2 postseason innings

I think we all can agree that Kevin Brown isn't close to being a HOFer, yet his career stats are similar to Schilling, save for the fact that Schilling played on some very good teams and made the post-season more often and pitched better once there.

I'm not saying Schilling is only as good as Brown was, but I think he is closer to Brown than the true elite HOF pitchers.

TheNext44
03-26-2009, 02:42 PM
I don't think you could categorize Schilling as "dominant". He never won a Cy Young Award, only had 20 wins 3 times (while playing for very good teams), never led the league in ERA, and his win total is already discussed.

According to baseball-reference.com, Kevin Brown is his most similar player and the similarities are striking. Schilling played in 1 more season, has 5 more career wins, and a higher career ERA (3.46 to 3.28). Schilling was very good, but not dominant.

I love Baseball-Reference.com, but to be honest, the way they figure out "similar players" is pure crap. I don't know how they do it, but the results are usually a joke. Here are the top three most similar players to Joe Morgan:

Lou Whitaker
Roberto Alomar
Steve Finley

For Barry Larkin its:

Alan Trammell
Ray Durham
Ryne Sandberg

Yep, when I think Joe Morgan, I think Steve Finley, when I think Barry Larkin, I think Ray Durham. And want to know something really funny?

The "most similar" player to John Smoltz, who I think everyone agrees deserves to be in the Hall...

Kevin Brown!

And Curt Schilling is second.

Also, in the two most important stats IMHO, K's and WHIP, Schilling is much better than Brown, much more dominant.

Brown 6.6 K/9 1.22 WHIP
Schilling 8.59 K/9 1.13 WHIP

A lot of good arguments can be made that Schilling does not belong in the Hall and you made some. However BR's "most similar" list is not one of them.