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ChatterRed
04-08-2009, 09:46 PM
This dude frustrated me last year and here is again frustrating me again this year. Too many pitches. Too many full counts. Too much nitpicking around the strike zone. Too many walks. He gets himself into trouble way too much. His second half last year was more indicative of what I expect this year.

TC81190
04-08-2009, 09:52 PM
Why do we always insist on hating on our best players?

ChatterRed
04-08-2009, 09:54 PM
I'm not hating.

I've gone on record many times saying Cueto will end up being better than Volquez.

Volquez will be a serviceable pitcher for many years. He nitpicks, walks way too many hitters, and runs his pitch count way too high. He did it all of last year. That cannot be disputed. His first half was a bit lucky.

I'm just venting. Is that not allowed?

laxtonto
04-08-2009, 11:16 PM
I said this last year at the start, even when he was doing well. EV is not a great SP. Really good, yes, but never is he going to be a real #1.

To many walks, to many fly balls. It is not like his career lows in HR per 9 and FB% is an expected occurrence.

His inability to get qick outs will lead to his shorter outings. Good, bad or indifferent, its the truth.

Mutaman
04-08-2009, 11:30 PM
Lets get serious. The kid won 17 games with over 200 strikeouts for a team that finished a zillion games under .500. With all the stiffs that have pitched for the Reds over the years, we finally get a real gem and here people are complaining about him. Typicical redzoan.

On the other hand, what a miserable performance by Mike Lincoln tonight. I had hoped that his second year back from tommy John surgery we would see some improvement over last year but he was just throwing lollypops up there. Even Bryan Schneider was teeing off on him. It was batting practice.

I had hoped with Majewski, Fogg, and Belisle out of here, we might have a full compliment of major league pitchers for once, so Lincoln's effort tonight was really disappointing.

NorrisHopper30
04-08-2009, 11:41 PM
Yeah it was Volquez's fault when Gonzo booted that ball that gave up 3 runs.

ChatterRed
04-08-2009, 11:52 PM
Volquez pulled a Jack Armstrong in the first half. After the league scouted him, his second half was nowhere near as good.

Look, I'm glad we got Edison. Someone said in the gamethread that he doesn't trust his own stuff and once he gets ahead of hitters, he starts picking at the plate. I agree. I think he should trust his stuff more and go right at hitters. It's when he gets behind in the count and throws too many pitches that he gets into trouble. And the walks absolutely kill any pitcher and he is really bad at walking batters. Those 2 or 3 run innings could be cut to 1 run innings on hr's if he didn't put men on base.

I hope he learns from his mistakes and over time throws more efficiently.

I'm just frustrated cause you can see it coming when he's playing with fire.

mlh1981
04-09-2009, 12:16 AM
It was frustrating. Right after that 1st inning walk, I sensed trouble. You simply have to go after hitters and get them out. 2 out walks are infuriating, especially when the next batter is Carlos Delgado.

BLEEDS
04-09-2009, 12:26 AM
Never seen a guy with such good stuff take an 0-2 and turn it into a walk.

I think he got flustered after he turned his ankle, and felt he had to compensate by trying to throwing his fastball through a brick wall. His slider was not effective, and he couldn't adjust.

Still, he's young and will hopefully learn how to battle better and not lose his head.

I thought it was the right thing to do to make him finish that 4th inning do or die, but it didn't help him extend that into the rest of the game.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

JBChance
04-09-2009, 12:51 AM
Yeah it was Volquez's fault when Gonzo booted that ball that gave up 3 runs.

:thumbup: good post

Volquez was avg. or better today - the defense let him down. We HAVE to get that rectified before long, or we're in for a lot of torment this go 'round

GIDP
04-09-2009, 12:54 AM
Yea Id be really frustrated if we got another year of Volquez like we got last year. Probably time to trade him if we can even get someone for him.

JBChance
04-09-2009, 01:01 AM
Yea Id be really frustrated if we got another year of Volquez like we got last year. Probably time to trade him if we can even get someone for him.

Wow. A young, stud pitcher with possible top-of-the-rotation stuff. Yeah, lets trade him while he's nice and cheap.:rolleyes:

forfreelin04
04-09-2009, 01:05 AM
Volquez made a huge step this year, now he needs to make a smaller step to trusting his stuff more.

Bleeds is right; the only time he truly attaked ahead in the count was the K of Wright. He tried to spot his changeup today too much. He threw only one solid change to Delgado for the K.

That's a tough lineup. My guess is: if we were playing the Pirates he would have mowed down those guys Soto style. However, he tries to get too cute to get a K sometimes. He needs to work on hitting his spots and letting balls be hit into play. If more balls were put into play, the lower the pitch count, and the better chance he rides into the 6th and 7th innings with minimal damage.

GIDP
04-09-2009, 01:06 AM
Wow. A young, stud pitcher with possible top-of-the-rotation stuff. Yeah, lets trade him while he's nice and cheap.:rolleyes:
Yea who needs 200 innings of top 10 ERA, top 2 in K's and a pitcher on a losing team being 2nd in the league in wins.

Ghosts of 1990
04-09-2009, 02:11 AM
I'm not hating.

I've gone on record many times saying Cueto will end up being better than Volquez.

Volquez will be a serviceable pitcher for many years. He nitpicks, walks way too many hitters, and runs his pitch count way too high. He did it all of last year. That cannot be disputed. His first half was a bit lucky.

I'm just venting. Is that not allowed?

I think Cueto will be better then Volquez this year. I think in the long run Homer Bailey will also. I still think Volquez has what it takes to help us be a force; it just hurts when you think about the guy we traded to get him.... :thumbdown

10 years from now we will still be mentioning that in the same breath as the Frank Robinson trade.

REDblooded
04-09-2009, 02:39 AM
we should all really try to overreact more... this whole calm and cool attitude is getting a bit old.

ChatterRed
04-09-2009, 03:18 AM
Good to see Reds fans liking his performance today.

I'm sure Reds fans like being 0-2 also.

No wonder we haven't had a winning season in like forever.

Roush's socks
04-09-2009, 03:44 AM
He'll get it together.

Fon Duc Tow
04-09-2009, 07:51 AM
Good to see Reds fans liking his performance today.

I'm sure Reds fans like being 0-2 also.

No wonder we haven't had a winning season in like forever.


Queue the "Hey at least we aren't the Pirates" mantra... :D

DaytonFlyer
04-09-2009, 09:23 AM
Honestly, it's not completely his fault. Gonzalez booted that ball to help keep that inning going. Anyone watching the game could see his velocity was down 4-5 mph. He should've been yanked before all those runs got across. He is still struggling to get it together thanks to the missed spring training time.

He will have much better outings than this this year. I do not expect this to be the norm.

DaytonFlyer
04-09-2009, 09:24 AM
Oh, and nice to see we can find something to complain about when the offense does its job.

dunner13
04-09-2009, 09:31 AM
I love how people for the last year have wanted us to blow up this team and rebuild with young guys, yet we are not willing to go through the pains of watching the young guys mature as players. Volquez's stuff makes him one of the top pitchers in baseball, with time and maturity he will learn how to pitch. I think ramon hernandez may help alot with that as well. Really last year was volquez's first year, so lets give him some more time before we consider him a failure.

Eric_the_Red
04-09-2009, 09:43 AM
It Volquez can match his numbers from last year, I could care less how he goes about it. Remember, he is still developing as a pitcher. The stuff is there, and now he is in the process of learning how to pitch.

And while I agree it can be frustrating to watch him go from a 0-2 count to 3-2, he is always going to throw a lot of pitches. He is a strikeout pitcher and those types of pitchers usually throw more pitches.

If anyone wants to return to the whole "pitch to contact" days, I think we need to review how well that worked. Volquez (and Cueto, Owings and Bailey) will progress with experience, but some growing pains should be expected.

DTCromer
04-09-2009, 09:45 AM
I love how people for the last year have wanted us to blow up this team and rebuild with young guys, yet we are not willing to go through the pains of watching the young guys mature as players

truff

leakbrewergator
04-09-2009, 11:15 AM
I can't believe people are ready to give up on Volquez already. It was his first start of the year. Are Yankee fans ready to give up on Sabathia already?

CySeymour
04-09-2009, 11:18 AM
Wow. A young, stud pitcher with possible top-of-the-rotation stuff. Yeah, lets trade him while he's nice and cheap.:rolleyes:

I think the sarcasm detector isn't working in RedsZone today.


I think the guy was kidding when he suggested Cincy trade Volquez.

JBChance
04-09-2009, 11:58 AM
I think the sarcasm detector isn't working in RedsZone today.


I think the guy was kidding when he suggested Cincy trade Volquez.

Yeah, my sarcasm detector is still in Spring Training, when the "games" don't matter.

It's the regular season, now. I need to crank it up!

Bumstead
04-09-2009, 11:59 AM
0-2....this is 162 game season and we just played the Mets and faced Santana on opening day...this won't be a 2 game or 1 season fix. It appears that this will be a fix over the next 2-3 years that will allow the Reds to compete for a number of years instead of spending money and making trades just so that the Reds can compete for 1 or 2 years.

2 games is a bit early to cash it in and 1 game by a young pitcher is a bit early to say he is not going to get better. He may end up being a #3 starter for the Reds down the road but it appears that he will be a very solid 3rd starter. Nothing wrong with that.

Over-reaction would say that we should have kept Keppinger and played him everyday after his performance the last 2 days...

Bum

bgwilly31
04-09-2009, 12:00 PM
So here we are.

Now the question is how bad can the reds be if the pitching doesnt live up to what is expected. I fear the worst. :(

ChatterRed
04-09-2009, 12:04 PM
Well here is my thread-starting post:


This dude frustrated me last year and here is again frustrating me again this year. Too many pitches. Too many full counts. Too much nitpicking around the strike zone. Too many walks. He gets himself into trouble way too much. His second half last year was more indicative of what I expect this year.

No where did I say to trade the guy. No where did I say to blow up the team.

I said his second half of the season last year was more of what I expected than his overall numbers. He will be a guy with a 4.50 e.r.a. from here on out. Mainly because he walks so many guys.

Funny how this thread went way off the deep end when all I did was point out factual things about Volquez. Does he not throw an excessive amount of pitches? Does he not get 0-2 on hitters and go full count alot? Does he not walk alot of hitters? Does he not go much more than 5 innings per start?

There isn't a thing I said that wasn't true.

I don't want to trade him. I'm glad we have him. But he needs to improve and quit picking around the plate if his stuff is that good.

Bumstead
04-09-2009, 12:16 PM
So from now on he will be a 4.50 ERA guy? He will never improve? He is only 25 and made massive improvements last year. Last year he reached a point where he had never pitched that many innings. Could that have been a factor for his less impressive 2nd half? Sure, he walks too many guys and he always has, and he will probably always walk more than the elite pitchers do. But he also allows a lot less hits than IP and strikes out a lot of guys. Those two things would allow him to get away with walking an above average number of guys. I'm just saying...don't over-react to his first outing of the season. He has about 33 more starts to go and the Reds have 160 more games. Based on last year's improvement, I think there should be optimism for him to improve his control over time vs over-analyzing his first outing of 2009.

Bum

ChatterRed
04-10-2009, 04:20 AM
So from now on he will be a 4.50 ERA guy? He will never improve? He is only 25 and made massive improvements last year. Last year he reached a point where he had never pitched that many innings. Could that have been a factor for his less impressive 2nd half? Sure, he walks too many guys and he always has, and he will probably always walk more than the elite pitchers do. But he also allows a lot less hits than IP and strikes out a lot of guys. Those two things would allow him to get away with walking an above average number of guys. I'm just saying...don't over-react to his first outing of the season. He has about 33 more starts to go and the Reds have 160 more games. Based on last year's improvement, I think there should be optimism for him to improve his control over time vs over-analyzing his first outing of 2009.

Bum

I felt this way in the second half last year.

ChatterRed
04-13-2009, 10:02 PM
(cough)

goreds2
04-13-2009, 10:47 PM
Nice job getting out of the bases loaded jam. :beerme:

ChatterRed
04-13-2009, 11:23 PM
Harang is da man, and Volquez is starting out the season very scary.

schmidty622
04-13-2009, 11:37 PM
He throws too many pitches. He needs to trust his stuff and hit his spots.

JBChance
04-14-2009, 12:02 AM
I like the way that Dusty left him in there, once we got back in the game - didn't let him off the hook.

Gut feeling, but look for him to bounce back next time.

Jerome
04-14-2009, 01:12 AM
He'll be okay.

http://jeromesredscare.blogspot.com

Jim Fazio
04-14-2009, 10:42 AM
Like I said last yr. I would have never traded a talent like Hamilton for a pitcher like Volquez. Volquez is going to get 30-35 starts and maybe have good stuff for 20-25 starts compared to Hamilton an every day player with un real talent who will play in 150+ games. I still can't believe they made that trade. The only way I make it is if they got a league ace like Santana or CC. This trade will haunt the Reds I fear.

Eric_the_Red
04-14-2009, 11:33 AM
^I disagree. You cannot compare 1 start every 5 days to an everyday player becuase starting pitchers are generally more valuable than other positions.

While I liked Hamilton and his story, I think his body will break down earlier and more often than other players because of the abuse it has taken. My hopes for the trade are that it turns out to be a win-win for both teams and both players have great success.

bgwilly31
04-14-2009, 12:42 PM
Your just wrong. And wishfull thinking.

Same old bologne stuff. Oh josh hamiltons body is going to break down. The people that were saying that during the trade were speculating. Now almost 2 yrs later. He is still going strong. And you guys are still trying to speculate like your dr. House or something that hamiltons body is going to self destruct within a yr. Cmon boys.

A few us said it when it first happened. This trade is doomed to go down as one of the worst trades in REDS history.

Volquez had his little new pitching talent run. Now the league knows everything about him and is sitting on his changeup. Volquez is in trouble. And im guessing will probably struggle to be mediocre for the rest of the year.

Red in Atl
04-14-2009, 01:09 PM
Your just wrong. And wishfull thinking.

Same old bologne stuff. Oh josh hamiltons body is going to break down. The people that were saying that during the trade were speculating. Now almost 2 yrs later. He is still going strong. And you guys are still trying to speculate like your dr. House or something that hamiltons body is going to self destruct within a yr. Cmon boys.

A few us said it when it first happened. This trade is doomed to go down as one of the worst trades in REDS history.

Volquez had his little new pitching talent run. Now the league knows everything about him and is sitting on his changeup. Volquez is in trouble. And im guessing will probably struggle to be mediocre for the rest of the year.

Actually I would say the same to you. You are wrong and it's all wishful thinking. I think a pitcher of Volquez's talents are worth much more that an everyday player, because it's so hard to come by. Especially for the Reds.

And those who are already throwing in the towel on Edinson are being no different than someone saying that Josh's body will break down. That was a great trade for both teams. It gave each what they didn't have, and needed. Be happy about it.

Besides, the real reason the Reds got rid of Hamilton is that they didn't want a guy in the clubhouse who was/is wearing Jesus on his sleeve (not that there's anything wrong with that) 24/7 and needed a constant babysitter (shadow-Johnny Narron) to keep him in line.

Captain Hook
04-14-2009, 01:51 PM
I'm a big Volquez fan and think that he will repeat what he did last season.It might not be this year but he really doesn't have to be that good every season.15 wins and a ERA below 4.00 is very acceptable.

Eddison has struggled so far there is no doubt.But what I saw last night was a guy that was around the strike zone for the most part(not missing by much) trowing 95 mph with a nasty change up.If that stays the same he will do just fine this season.Also, Volquez will not have to face the Mets and Brew Crew every time out and lets face it, those are 2 of the better offenses around the National League.

Eric_the_Red
04-14-2009, 02:23 PM
Your just wrong. And wishfull thinking.

Same old bologne stuff. Oh josh hamiltons body is going to break down. The people that were saying that during the trade were speculating. Now almost 2 yrs later. He is still going strong. And you guys are still trying to speculate like your dr. House or something that hamiltons body is going to self destruct within a yr. Cmon boys.

A few us said it when it first happened. This trade is doomed to go down as one of the worst trades in REDS history.

Volquez had his little new pitching talent run. Now the league knows everything about him and is sitting on his changeup. Volquez is in trouble. And im guessing will probably struggle to be mediocre for the rest of the year.

One full season and a week of the next is almost 2 years?

Hamilton turns 28 next month. Volquez turns 26 in July. I think Volquez has more seasons left in him than Hamilton. If Volquez can average 14-16 wins and an ERA around 3.50-4.00 for the next few seasons, I think the trade should be viewed as a success, regardless of what Hamilton does.

bgwilly31
04-14-2009, 04:15 PM
And those who are already throwing in the towel on Edinson are being no different than someone saying that Josh's body will break down. That was a great trade for both teams. It gave each what they didn't have, and needed. Be happy about it.

.

So 2 wrongs make a right^ lol.

Your assesment in that matter is wrong. People STILL talking about hamiltons body Exploding are going off PURE speculation.

People your words "throwing in the towel" on EV are going off of ACTUAL performance. 2nd half of the yr last yr and thus far this yr.

EV is not lights out anymore. And this "NASTY" curve people keep saying isnt so "NASTY" when its getting hit out of the ball park.

bgwilly31
04-14-2009, 04:22 PM
Its almost like some of you just ignore the fact that new pitchers in this league with a lot of talent have a good chance of performing very well.

Because scouts havent analysed there releases and tendencies as much as other pitchers around the league.

Well by the 2nd half of the season you saw the result of that.

And its still continuing today. True talents over come that. Which we all were hoping EV would have over the off-season. So far the hope has failed.

Eric_the_Red
04-14-2009, 04:30 PM
Its almost like some of you just ignore the fact that new pitchers in this league with a lot of talent have a good chance of performing very well.

Because scouts havent analysed there releases and tendencies as much as other pitchers around the league.

Well by the 2nd half of the season you saw the result of that.

And its still continuing today. True talents over come that. Which we all were hoping EV would have over the off-season. So far the hope has failed.


"So far" has been 2 starts. Frankie says relax.

JBChance
04-15-2009, 01:12 AM
Actually I would say the same to you. You are wrong and it's all wishful thinking. I think a pitcher of Volquez's talents are worth much more that an everyday player, because it's so hard to come by. Especially for the Reds.

And those who are already throwing in the towel on Edinson are being no different than someone saying that Josh's body will break down. That was a great trade for both teams. It gave each what they didn't have, and needed. Be happy about it.

Besides, the real reason the Reds got rid of Hamilton is that they didn't want a guy in the clubhouse who was/is wearing Jesus on his sleeve (not that there's anything wrong with that) 24/7 and needed a constant babysitter (shadow-Johnny Narron) to keep him in line.

Nice post. Spot on.


Volquez is showing some of the warts that made him less effective as a Ranger. It's something he has to work through. I believe he will. He throws in the mid 90's w/ an awesome change, when he can spot it. He will be a good pitcher until the heater starts to fade.

One thing I don't like - Anyone notice how much weight he's picked up? Maybe he's channeling Fernando, but I don't like it. Maybe its screwing with his throwing motion.

NastyBoy
04-15-2009, 02:28 AM
The Cowboy had some interesting comments when Volquez was pitching the other night. He really thought the problem was with Hernandez not being familiar enough with his starting pitchers. Hernandez has not been calling the game as effectively as the catchers from last season (Bako/Hannigan). It was suggested that Hannigan catch Volquez.