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Ghosts of 1990
04-11-2009, 05:39 PM
I realize it's early, and I'm willing to be patient. Just observation(s) through the first 4 games..... and some of spring training

-You hear about this young pitching again and again and again. The fact of the matter is we're approaching about a year mark since Edison Volquez has looked dominant/decent and Johnny Cueto just gets hit. There is no other way around it. The guy has all the stuff in the world and he can strike you out but big league hitters hit him. I wanna add that we already know what we have at best in Arroyo and Harang. We've seen it. Owings is the one guy who could probably really have his stock rise..... or Bailey but he's in the minors in favor of Arroyo. I am beginning to think Johnny Cueto is what we saw today on most nights..... he just isn't consistently impressive.

-I dont care how many runs he saves you (and the other night he actually cost us perhaps a game with his glove) Alex Gonzalez is squeezing at bats from guys like Dickerson and Hairston who I see as igniters. Hairston should be the every day shortstop. Gonzalez is as automatic of an out as there is in this league. He's going to hit .230 at best. Mark my words.

-This team simply doesn't hit enough. I don't know where to start. The bottom 3 of the lineup are automatic outs. Hernandez, Gonzalez, Pitcher. Hernandez has the look of a guy who will hit 8 home runs and .240 possibly. This was a team who in spring training half the time was scoring 0, 1 or 2 runs. I was alarmed then and while I'm willing to be patient to make an outright full judgement, my concern is growing. The biggest thing I see is you have two young hitters who could be great.... but they're being asked to carry the whole load. That is the organizations fault. There is no one in that lineup other then Bruce, Votto, and maybe Phillips who are a threat. There is no protection for the young guys and they're at a time when they should be allowed to develop.... not carry a team. It's not fair. Shame on anyone who wanted Adam Dunn gone. Say what you want but his production will be sorely missed. You talk about your team built on pitching and defense? You're going to have a lot of 10-2 games like the one we had today.

-This is not a "Chicken Little the Sky is falling" post. I am not that type of person. I've watched this team very closely and I'm calling it how I see it. I think a ton of us (myself included) were blinding ourselves on the limitations of this team; and I said they'd win 80. From what I see spring, and even now those two games in which we scored a few runs (it was an ugly display both games allowing us to score more then 1 or 2) I just don't think there is enough firepower and this is going to be a total rebuilding year.

fadetoblack2880
04-11-2009, 06:18 PM
not only a rebuilding year, but a long year.

CRedsLarkin11
04-11-2009, 06:43 PM
It's just not going to be very good...it's different, for sure but still the same ole Reds that we've come to love for the most part since '96

bgwilly31
04-11-2009, 06:44 PM
Great points and i fully confirm.

Except for maybe the A. DUnn thing. I think his stats will be missed THIS yr. But his attitude and work ethic will not. Also in the yrs to come we can easily replace his type of stats if this organization will spend any money.

ChatterRed
04-11-2009, 06:48 PM
Well, two of the pitchers we faced had our number. Santana has everyone's number and Maholm has the Reds number. If we'd have won game two, we'd be 2-2 right now.

Volquez frustrates me but is still good. Cueto is still getting the ball up in the zone. Arroyo is a workhorse, but hittable. Harang is up and down. I like Owings to be the darkhorse stud we're looking for.

Lineup isn't very formidable. And I agree about Gonzalez.

Votto and Phillips are solid in the infield. We need a SS and 3B. I'm fine with Tavares and Bruce.......but we need a LFer. Not that impressed with Ramon behind the plate........but still very impressed with Hanigan behind the plate.......including his great throwout at 2nd.

Bullpen appears to need tweaking. Burton not looking so great so far. Lincoln looking like a disaster. Everyone else looking pretty solid.

4 games. Plenty of time.

jmac
04-11-2009, 06:51 PM
Santana is one of the top lefties in the game and Maholm is one of the most under-rated.
We have scored plenty of runs in the "other" 2 games.
Hernandez will probably hit around 250-260 with 18 or more homers.
Gonzalez doesnt impress me with his stick and maybe he gets to more balls than most however he boots to many routine plays imo.

I wanted the reds to consider using Owings in LF vs lefties in ST but he had to go and pitch well. ;)
He certainly looks like a big time hitter.

If Taveras plays, he needs to at least attempt one bunt every time up.
Phillips is okay but I still wish we would have aquired a big bat to help Bruce and Votto.

With Dickerson in there in LF, I still feel as the last few years and that is we will play better vs Righties.

schmidty622
04-11-2009, 07:02 PM
Bruce has been absolutly terrible to start the year as well. I mean he just looks lost sometimes at the plate, and what the hell was he doing in the 9th today?

Jerome
04-11-2009, 07:03 PM
Is there anyone out there that thinks the Reds still win over 85 games after watching these 4 games? I didn't think so (We remember all of you from the preseason). I've said it all along--81 wins and I'll be ecstatic. We're Y-O-U-N-G. We're a few years and a couple hitters away from contention. The offense is doing better than I expected! We need to take tomorrow with Harang against Snell and be at .500 by the month's end.

http://jeromesredscare.blogspot.com

redram
04-11-2009, 07:13 PM
not only a rebuilding year, but a long year.

I thought LAST YEAR was the rebuilding year ? or was it the year before that. Face it until baseball does something about the free spending of all these major market teams, we will be what you see. We will have spurts like always then we will have times like right now. No Offense, and the strength (starting pitching) so far has been the biggest disappointment of the year. Not to mention the poor D and pathetic base running. This team is a mess. Last year was bad and this year so far just looks like a repeat of that. Will we be out of it by the end of May again ???

Ghosts of 1990
04-11-2009, 07:23 PM
Bruce has been absolutly terrible to start the year as well. I mean he just looks lost sometimes at the plate, and what the hell was he doing in the 9th today?

Disagree.

You are looking at stats and not what is happening on the field. He does not look lost at the plate, at all. Nor did he this spring.

He's hit several bullets right at people for outs(first at bat today, wednesday night he flew out to warning track) and several shots that were just foul by inches. He has struck out twice thus far which is showing improvement in contact. All of his hits have been backside which as a lefthander that means he's really taking a great approach (and I heard them comment that about him this spring also).

When he is making outs, they are productive outs. He has moved the runner over several times with something to the right side in the first few games when men on base. I don't know how you could say "Bruce has been terrible/lost" unless you are not watching the games and just looking at the box scores. Those outs he's making? Well there is a stap kept in every big league clubhouse called "hard hit/tendency to rise" average. All those productive outs and hard hit at bats that you see are counted towards the average but it basically means this "slump" he is in isn't likely to continue.

Ghosts of 1990
04-11-2009, 07:26 PM
Is there anyone out there that thinks the Reds still win over 85 games after watching these 4 games? I didn't think so (We remember all of you from the preseason). I've said it all along--81 wins and I'll be ecstatic. We're Y-O-U-N-G. We're a few years and a couple hitters away from contention. The offense is doing better than I expected! We need to take tomorrow with Harang against Snell and be at .500 by the month's end.

http://jeromesredscare.blogspot.com

Eh. To be honest, the Rays were as young as you can get last year and they did well.

Something is wrong here, and I cannot put my finger on it. You know I love this team and if they lose 130 games I'm still going to love them and watch them every night but something is missing. Something big. I wish I was smart enough to figure it out but the main thing I see is management took the shortcut when it comes to personnel and fielded a team that is about a 69 win team no matter what they do.

Every year is a rebuilding year for us. Just once, I'd like to be the team who jumps out to 8-0 and surprises like the Marlins.... just one time. You know you look at the Marlins, and honestly on paper with personnel they don't have us by a lot, but something is different in that organization. The way they do things. The way their players always turn out and ours always turn out Austin Kearns. Something is wrong here.....

Jerome
04-11-2009, 07:27 PM
Just for perspective

Red Sox 1-3
Phillies 1-3
Indians 0-5

http://jeromesredscare.blogspot.com

CesarGeronimo
04-11-2009, 07:42 PM
OK, this group is bland. True. So let's go ahead and put the Reds' best lineup in the game tomorrow again another lefty. It obviously won't happen, but I'd argue for something like:

Encarnacion, 3B
Phillips, 2B
Votto, 1B
Gomes, LF (him and Rosales called up; Taveras and McDonald sent down)
Bruce, RF
Hanigan, C
Hairston or Dickerson, CF
Gonzalez, SS
Harang, P

It's still not real potent, but it at least would be an attempt to make it as difficult on a lefty pitcher as the Reds are able while maintaining any semblance of a competent defense.

improbus
04-11-2009, 07:50 PM
Gonzo hasn't really swung a bat in a year in a half. Give him some time. Let's not panic 4 games into the season.

xavr1
04-11-2009, 07:56 PM
Definitely agree about the bottom of our order. Gonzalez is swinging a toothpick up there and Hernandez is lucky to make contact. The bats need to wake up, but Im confident they will.

schmidty622
04-11-2009, 09:06 PM
Disagree.

You are looking at stats and not what is happening on the field. He does not look lost at the plate, at all. Nor did he this spring.

He's hit several bullets right at people for outs(first at bat today, wednesday night he flew out to warning track) and several shots that were just foul by inches. He has struck out twice thus far which is showing improvement in contact. All of his hits have been backside which as a lefthander that means he's really taking a great approach (and I heard them comment that about him this spring also).

When he is making outs, they are productive outs. He has moved the runner over several times with something to the right side in the first few games when men on base. I don't know how you could say "Bruce has been terrible/lost" unless you are not watching the games and just looking at the box scores. Those outs he's making? Well there is a stap kept in every big league clubhouse called "hard hit/tendency to rise" average. All those productive outs and hard hit at bats that you see are counted towards the average but it basically means this "slump" he is in isn't likely to continue.

I've been to two games, listened to the one and watched one. Bruce has not looked like a good baseball player save for the two throws he has made to gun someone down at home.
- He has continued to look over matched against lefties. Did again today.
- His bat looked WAY slow on wendsday night. He was behind pretty much every Pelfry fastball he saw.
- Today after his RBI Single, on a routine fly ball, he ran nearly to third and had to try to back track to first but was gunned down. Chris Welsh call that "embarrassing"

- Today he miss read a play of the bat of Freddy Sanchez. Double.
- He simply fell down in front of a groundball single in the second game of the year that cost the team at least one run and possibly two.
- His play in field has been Dunn-like, again, except for the two tremendous throws.


Until you can tell me what this "hard hit/tendency to rise" stat is for Bruce specifically it means nothing.

I get that your a big Bruce fan, thats obvious, and don't get me wrong, the kid has talent. No doubt. But to this point of the season. He has looked average at best. He needs to work on it.

Carolina Red
04-11-2009, 09:39 PM
I agree with Jerome from Boise. This is a very young team, both on the mound, at the plate, and in the field. I think that Gonzo and Taveras are just support players but unfortunately we have a lot of other guys who still need time to develop. We just don't have players who can put a team on their back and carry it for a period of time.

When talking about Bruce I can't help but look back to last year and the way Votto played for most of the first half. He made a marked improvement in the second half and looks even better this year. I think if Bruce works just as hard he will have the same result. I look for a big second half from him.

I think one big mistake the Reds made was trading Josh Hamilton for Volquez. Looking at the excess of available starters we should have kept him. At least if we were going to trade him we should have gotten a much better return.

We still have holes to fill for the future. We need a solid shortstop and a third baseman who can hit and throw. I think once Alonso is ready Votto will move to LF.

schmidty622
04-11-2009, 10:43 PM
From Lance McAlister's Blog:

"Thought of the day
Jay Bruce has major league "talent"....but he has to have one of the lower baseball IQ's I've seen in a while.
His screw-up are not about being young. You either know the game or you don't. He's been playing the game of baseball how long?"



I'm not sayin, Im just sayin.

Mutaman
04-11-2009, 10:56 PM
I think one big mistake the Reds made was trading Josh Hamilton for Volquez. Looking at the excess of available starters we should have kept him.

.

Where is this "excess " of available starters?

Shawn_RedsFan
04-11-2009, 11:27 PM
I am not very optimistic about this team either, but come on we havent even played a full week yet and we are already throwing in the towel...i mean come on now...sometimes i dont even know why i come to this site because of all the negativity.

nmculbreth
04-11-2009, 11:29 PM
I'll be the first to concede this is a very flawed team but I think you're reading way too much into a very small sample.

The fact of the matter is that the Reds have played a grand total of four games and Volquez and Cueto have exactly two collective starts under their belt. Obviously Volquez experienced a dip in production after the All Star game but it's a bit much to say that he hasn't been dominating / decent in a year. He experienced only a mild dip in K/9 (9.64 vs. 9.19) and his BB/9 and BB/K were roughly the same (4.28 vs. 4.25 and 2.25 vs. 2.16 respectively). His WHIP did take a jump (1.24 vs. 1.45) but given that it was his first full year in the majors I think you can attribute this partially to the league adjusting to him and partially getting tired down the stretch.

In regards to Cueto, he's simply experiencing growing pains.

In regards to SS, while I agree that it is this team's biggest weakness, Jerry Hairston simply is not the solution. He has no range at SS and while he experienced a career year last season, his career numbers indicate that he's far from an offensive ignitor. He's OK as a utility player but he just isn't good enought to be a full time starter, particularly at a position as important as SS. I'm all for upgrading the position, but as things stand Gonzalez is the best option available.

Ghosts of 1990
04-11-2009, 11:44 PM
Where is this "excess " of available starters?

I agree wholeheartedly.

This team is different with Hamilton in one of the OF spots and Bailey or WHOEVER up in Volquez's spot, and we're more dangerous. Like I've said before.... if I'm available in a decade lets talk about the trade then. We let go someone very special for a decent to very good major league arm--IF Volquez figures it out.

Ghosts of 1990
04-11-2009, 11:48 PM
From Lance McAlister's Blog:

"Thought of the day
Jay Bruce has major league "talent"....but he has to have one of the lower baseball IQ's I've seen in a while.
His screw-up are not about being young. You either know the game or you don't. He's been playing the game of baseball how long?"



I'm not sayin, Im just sayin.

No offense to Lance, but what is his baseball IQ?

I've played the game and when you play that many games in a year it is there, but mistakes happen. Why is he singling out Bruce? If I recall, Encarnacion (one of our more veteran players) made the same mistake today at the end of the game.

There is one thing Lance does I do not respect him for. It's called piling on. It's easy to rip on Bruce right now. Lance did the same thing to Dunner when he was going through his valleys. It really stinks. Lance needs to realize he is a 22 year old player and like it or not mistakes are going to happen. I've seen him make a lot of plays that would lead one to believe he has a high baseball IQ. Mcalister is out of line here.

Ghosts of 1990
04-11-2009, 11:51 PM
I'll be the first to concede this is a very flawed team but I think you're reading way too much into a very small sample.

The fact of the matter is that the Reds have played a grand total of four games and Volquez and Cueto have exactly two collective starts under their belt. Obviously Volquez experienced a dip in production after the All Star game but it's a bit much to say that he hasn't been dominating / decent in a year. He experienced only a mild dip in K/9 (9.64 vs. 9.19) and his BB/9 and BB/K were roughly the same (4.28 vs. 4.25 and 2.25 vs. 2.16 respectively). His WHIP did take a jump (1.24 vs. 1.45) but given that it was his first full year in the majors I think you can attribute this partially to the league adjusting to him and partially getting tired down the stretch.

In regards to Cueto, he's simply experiencing growing pains.

In regards to SS, while I agree that it is this team's biggest weakness, Jerry Hairston simply is not the solution. He has no range at SS and while he experienced a career year last season, his career numbers indicate that he's far from an offensive ignitor. He's OK as a utility player but he just isn't good enought to be a full time starter, particularly at a position as important as SS. I'm all for upgrading the position, but as things stand Gonzalez is the best option available.

And I apologize. This team isn't dead by any means, but its been a frustrating spring and first week. I feel like we're waiting on returns from some stock and we just haven't seen the promise delivered yet. All spring we hear ranting and raving about the pitching, and it has been abhorrent so far. The bats lagged through the spring and they've been subpar so far. You hear about the energy of the young team and they have pretty much come out flat to my eyes so far.

I am willing to wait to about the 20 game mark to make a final judgement, I guess just after the first exam this is what I see, and today's game really didn't help things. I realize it's a grain of salt in the whole scheme of things thus far, but don't kid yourselves. Four games is going to be 30 before we know it, and if you know what i mean, something has to change.

schmidty622
04-12-2009, 03:18 PM
Bruce's 0-2 with 2 ks today has certainly been productive. He is struggling. It's pretty clear.

Ghosts of 1990
04-12-2009, 05:06 PM
Bruce's 0-2 with 2 ks today has certainly been productive. He is struggling. It's pretty clear.

way to come back and prove your point now after he struck out a few times. :thumbup:

If he gets multiple hits tomorrow in Milwaukee does that mean I'm right?

Nah, the "he's struggling" thing is overplayed because the hits aren't falling in the right spots. He's a few bloops from .300 and then he wouldn't "be struggling".

You wanna know who is struggling? Ramon Hernandez and Alex Gonzalez. Haven't seen them hit a ball hard yet.

schmidty622
04-12-2009, 05:13 PM
way to come back and prove your point now after he struck out a few times. :thumbup:

If he gets multiple hits tomorrow in Milwaukee does that mean I'm right?

Nah, the "he's struggling" thing is overplayed because the hits aren't falling in the right spots. He's a few bloops from .300 and then he wouldn't "be struggling".

You wanna know who is struggling? Ramon Hernandez and Alex Gonzalez. Haven't seen them hit a ball hard yet.

Show me some stats on where his balls have been hit and that he has been unlucky. He's been bad at the plate and in the field. Don't take it as an insult, I know you love the guy and will defend him to death but he has not played well.

Ghosts of 1990
04-12-2009, 05:32 PM
Show me some stats on where his balls have been hit and that he has been unlucky. He's been bad at the plate and in the field. Don't take it as an insult, I know you love the guy and will defend him to death but he has not played well.

Hey look, Grady Sizemore is hitting .200 as well. He stinks too.

He hit several balls just foul that would have been extra bases (Bruce). He also hit one as hard as you can hit a ball yesterday but right at the center fielder. Also hit one to the wall against Mike Pelfrey but the wind held it up and it didn't get out.

There aren't any stats for it. It's just what happened. Today was his poorest day at the plate but other then that his contact has been pretty good. Poor in the field? He's yet to make an error, he slipped on a wet field? Is that what you mean? Cause I've seen him throw out two runners. You mentioned him misjudging a ball hit during yesterday's game. That ball was roped. He didn't misjudge it.

I'm not going to sit here and tell lies and say he is red hot, becuase it's obvious he isn't. But he is fine, and this slump thing with him is being overplayed by the anouncers, by fans on message boards, and soon the media will say it too because they're looking at the stat line and not the result.

You don't talk about Pujols going into slumps ever because of a .200 average over a 5 or 10 game period because everyone knows it will look silly to say that about him and he'll come out of it. It should be the same way for Bruce. If you watch him hit and know what he has to offer there is no reason to talk slump unless this continues into 20 or 25 games...... and he is not on Pujols level but by watching him you can just tell he hasn't lost it overnight. Had a great spring and although its not showing up in the box score as of yet, he's fine.

REDblooded
04-12-2009, 06:08 PM
Bruce also made a play today by running hard on what should have been a gimme out at first... The fact that he gave that level of effort, while in a massive slump, shows me all I need to see about that kid... Jay Bruce is gonna be ok.

REDblooded
04-12-2009, 06:10 PM
I also distinctly remember one thing about Bruce as he progressed through the minors... The first few weeks at his new level, he would struggle a bit. Then, it just seemed to click, and before you knew it, the sum of his numbers was ridiculous.

schmidty622
04-12-2009, 08:23 PM
Hey look, Grady Sizemore is hitting .200 as well. He stinks too.

He hit several balls just foul that would have been extra bases (Bruce). He also hit one as hard as you can hit a ball yesterday but right at the center fielder. Also hit one to the wall against Mike Pelfrey but the wind held it up and it didn't get out.

There aren't any stats for it. It's just what happened. Today was his poorest day at the plate but other then that his contact has been pretty good. Poor in the field? He's yet to make an error, he slipped on a wet field? Is that what you mean? Cause I've seen him throw out two runners. You mentioned him misjudging a ball hit during yesterday's game. That ball was roped. He didn't misjudge it.

I'm not going to sit here and tell lies and say he is red hot, becuase it's obvious he isn't. But he is fine, and this slump thing with him is being overplayed by the anouncers, by fans on message boards, and soon the media will say it too because they're looking at the stat line and not the result.

You don't talk about Pujols going into slumps ever because of a .200 average over a 5 or 10 game period because everyone knows it will look silly to say that about him and he'll come out of it. It should be the same way for Bruce. If you watch him hit and know what he has to offer there is no reason to talk slump unless this continues into 20 or 25 games...... and he is not on Pujols level but by watching him you can just tell he hasn't lost it overnight. Had a great spring and although its not showing up in the box score as of yet, he's fine.

I agree, he's going to be fine. The original point was that he hasn't looked good so far and he hasn't. Will he in the near future. Yes. But he hasn't yet.

gedred69
04-12-2009, 08:44 PM
Bruce also made a play today by running hard on what should have been a gimme out at first... The fact that he gave that level of effort, while in a massive slump, shows me all I need to see about that kid... Jay Bruce is gonna be ok.

Ahhhhh, some sanity! Thanx!! Barely 22 yrs. old, rushed a bit to the Majors, I really believe he's just growing. I could say the same things about Homer.

RED VAN HOT
04-12-2009, 08:58 PM
The difference between bland and exciting is winning. The Reds depth in starting pitching should give them a significant advantage when facing the 4 and 5 pitchers of other teams. That hasn't happened yet. Let's check back in June.

mlh1981
04-12-2009, 10:50 PM
I don't feel like they are bland. I see improvement already. Guys like Phillips and Encarnacion are showing more patience, Votto is playing well, and I think that there is a much better attitude by this team than shown in years past. No old guys in this lineup who are set in their ways. I feel like eventually, that this can be a Reds team that fans can be proud of, but be patient! We did what rebuilding teams are supposed do do. We got rid of guys who weren't going to be part of the long term solutions (mostly--but not completely). There will be growing pains, but I see more excitement and enthusiasm for the game of baseball by this bunch than I have seen in recent years.

Jerome
04-12-2009, 10:53 PM
I like our plate discipline, but they should be running more. And for a small ball team, we have not been moving runners at all. We're getting them in scoring position and leaving em out there. Okay, 157 to go. When this lineup has Taveras and Dickerson at the top, I have much more to be excited about. McDonald/Hairston, not so much.

http://jeromesredscare.blogspot.com

Mutaman
04-12-2009, 10:54 PM
There will be growing pains, but I see more excitement and enthusiasm for the game of baseball by this bunch than I have seen in recent years.


We saw it the whole second half of last season. This bunch won a lot of big games against the Cubs and the Brewers without BP. They don't quit (ie game 2 against the Mets). If we can get some pitching we'll be ok.

mlh1981
04-12-2009, 11:03 PM
We saw it the whole second half of last season. This bunch won a lot of big games against the Cubs and the Brewers without BP. They don't quit (ie game 2 against the Mets). If we can get some pitching we'll be ok.

True, true, but I think this can be the first year in awhile where we can make that sort of enthusiasm in which I mentioned last for an entire year.

Jr's Boy
04-12-2009, 11:10 PM
The fact that the front office did not go out and spend money on a legit slugger in the middle will come back to bite this team in the you know what.Team's just don't seem to fear the Reds order,much as they would if say ,an Adam Dunn or Bobby Abreu type slugger would.

Ghosts of 1990
04-13-2009, 01:04 AM
The fact that the front office did not go out and spend money on a legit slugger in the middle will come back to bite this team in the you know what.Team's just don't seem to fear the Reds order,much as they would if say ,an Adam Dunn or Bobby Abreu type slugger would.

Yeah we're missing that one big bat in the middle of the lineup....

This is what will keep us from probably being a great offense this year. My hope was a hot start into June and we'd go out and look at the market and see if there was someone we could acquire for help but they'll only do it if we get off to a great start... it's still possible I suppose

Mutaman
04-13-2009, 01:21 AM
The fact that the front office did not go out and spend money on a legit slugger in the middle will come back to bite this team in the you know what.Team's just don't seem to fear the Reds order,much as they would if say ,an Adam Dunn or Bobby Abreu type slugger would.

Yeah, without a slugger like Dunn we might not finish over .500 like we did all those years big Adam was in the middle of the order. And without a slugger like Bobby Abreu we might not make the playoffs like the Yankees did last year with Abreu leading the way.

Eric_the_Red
04-13-2009, 07:54 AM
Since when is Abreu a "slugger"? The last 4 seasons his HR numbers have been 24, 15, 16, & 20. We have plenty of people on this team capable of doing that. Plus, Abreu is a defensive nightmare.

Slyder
04-13-2009, 08:09 AM
:rolleyes::rolleyes:
Yeah, without a slugger like Dunn we might not finish over .500 like we did all those years big Adam was in the middle of the order. And without a slugger like Bobby Abreu we might not make the playoffs like the Yankees did last year with Abreu leading the way.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Ya Dunn and Abreu were the main reason both teams missed the playoffs last year for the Yanks and all those years for the Reds. Doesnt matter how bad our pitching was its always Dunn's fault.

bounty37h
04-13-2009, 11:56 AM
not only a rebuilding year, but a long year.

How many years is it before it isn't labeled rebuilding anymore?

Caveman Techie
04-13-2009, 01:36 PM
Ok, a couple of things I wanted to respond to.

Dunn was not the problem, he was a symptom of the problem. For too long the Reds didn't have any pitching and relied on the offense to save the season for them. For all his offensive powers his defense and strikeouts made him a luxury that this Reds team couldn't afford.

Josh Hamilton for Volquez. While I love Josh Hamilton I still today would make that trade. There were just too many questions surrounding Josh with the drug use and what damage he did to his body. In 10 years if he has a good/stellar MLB career I will be more than happy to reevaluate my opinion but for now, the Reds traded a promising player for a promising player with fewer issues.

Jay Bruce, He hasn't looked too good so far however it's early and he will settle down. I think right now he is trying to do too much and carry the load of the entire organization on his shoulders.

Mutaman
04-13-2009, 01:42 PM
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Ya Dunn and Abreu were the main reason both teams missed the playoffs last year for the Yanks and all those years for the Reds. Doesnt matter how bad our pitching was its always Dunn's fault.

My point exactly. Sorry I was subtle about it. The name of the game is pitching and without it you won't win. Yet about 90 % of the posts here focus on offense, the way the batting order is constructed, and how great we'd be if we still had Joey Hamilton or Dunn. Indeed I was responding to a post that said the problem with this team is that we don't have a big slugger in the middle of the order.

Wrong. The problem with this team is and for the last seven years has been that we don't have enough good pitching or enough good defense. And signing Bobby Abreau is not going to solve that problem.