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Kc61
04-13-2009, 12:34 AM
Yes, sure it's too soon. But you'd think the Reds will be watching below to see who can help.

Adam Rosales belongs on the Reds team. They only have one spare infielder, they should have another, and Rosales is off to a good start.

The Reds middle relief is off to a shaky start. Herrera and Lincoln in particular. In the early going at AAA, Bray, Roenicke, Fisher, and Manuel are all off ok in very limited action. Something to watch.

And there's always the Gomes watch. He could be brought up if the Reds struggle against lefties, as they have done for years now.

If Hairston doesn't get going, a long shot for this season could be Stubbs to platoon with Dickerson. Probably for later in the season, not now.

Also for later, if the Reds need a starter, we can watch Bailey, Maloney, and Ramirez. So far, Maloney had the best first start.

Finally, at AAA, Frazier is off to a hot start in the early going. Too soon for AAA? Ok, perhaps a bit soon.

TRF
04-13-2009, 10:10 AM
Stubbs, like Dickerson would be wasted in LF. One thing I've never disputed about Drew Stubbs is his defense.

I do think it's too soon for callups. sends the wrong message. yes, players should be accountable for their performance, but it's been 5 days.

bucksfan2
04-13-2009, 11:27 AM
Stubbs, like Dickerson would be wasted in CF. One thing I've never disputed about Drew Stubbs is his defense.

I do think it's too soon for callups. sends the wrong message. yes, players should be accountable for their performance, but it's been 5 days.

Stubbs would be wasted in CF? Huh?

JaxRed
04-13-2009, 12:18 PM
Think he meant LF

Kc61
04-13-2009, 12:23 PM
Stubbs would be wasted in CF? Huh?


Not sure what was meant, but a Dickerson/Stubbs platoon in either CF or LF makes sense. At some point, one or both may break out and deserve an everyday job, but with the defense and on base skills these guys hopefully would provide, they would be a good platoon initially.

The Reds are going to have some decisions to make in the outfield.

Dickerson, Stubbs, Votto, Frazier, Bruce, all likely slated for the outfield. Taveras is still young and, hopefully, will perform well enough to warrant consideration for the future. Dorn can hit as well, plays OF and now 1B. Heisey is also a solid outfield possibilty.

It's a good problem to have, wonder how it will all shake out.

GIDP
04-13-2009, 12:47 PM
I'm sure he meant LF.

Only Rosales and Gomes are guys I could see call ups not really effecting other guys. Both of them made a very strong case to why they should be on the MLB roster.

TRF
04-13-2009, 01:25 PM
Stubbs would be wasted in CF? Huh?


oops. meant LF.

Taveras isn't going anywhere so we can stop fantasizing about that for the time being. Plus he hasn't embarrassed himself at the plate just yet. I'm not seeing this 100 SB's at this rate though.

Basically what COULD happen is replacing Hairston. it's really the only choice. And no way do the Reds do that after pursuing him, re-signing him, and praising him the way they did this offseason and ST.

bucksfan2
04-13-2009, 01:39 PM
oops. meant LF.

Taveras isn't going anywhere so we can stop fantasizing about that for the time being. Plus he hasn't embarrassed himself at the plate just yet. I'm not seeing this 100 SB's at this rate though.

Basically what COULD happen is replacing Hairston. it's really the only choice. And no way do the Reds do that after pursuing him, re-signing him, and praising him the way they did this offseason and ST.

Ok you confused me.

Here is the way I see it. Stubbs is the CF of the future. He will have to supplant Taveras as the CF which if he keeps his OBP up he most probably will do that sometime next season. Dickerson has his chance to prove that he can play everyday LF this season. I would love to see him get a chance at hitting lefties before the Reds declare that he can't. It looks like there will become a log jam at LF. Dickerson, Votto/Alonso, and Frazier all look to be corner outfielders. IMO having Dickerson as a 4th outfielder won't be such a bad thing. But what I think happens in the future is that one of Frazier, Alonso or Votto get moved. I think it will be Alonso but stranger things have happened.

IMO the best case scenario would be Frazier is able to hold down 3b, Votto can play LF, Alonso plays 1b, and Dickerson becomes a very dependable 4th outfielder.

TRF
04-13-2009, 02:56 PM
Ok you confused me.

Here is the way I see it. Stubbs is the CF of the future. He will have to supplant Taveras as the CF which if he keeps his OBP up he most probably will do that sometime next season. Dickerson has his chance to prove that he can play everyday LF this season. I would love to see him get a chance at hitting lefties before the Reds declare that he can't. It looks like there will become a log jam at LF. Dickerson, Votto/Alonso, and Frazier all look to be corner outfielders. IMO having Dickerson as a 4th outfielder won't be such a bad thing. But what I think happens in the future is that one of Frazier, Alonso or Votto get moved. I think it will be Alonso but stranger things have happened.

IMO the best case scenario would be Frazier is able to hold down 3b, Votto can play LF, Alonso plays 1b, and Dickerson becomes a very dependable 4th outfielder.

None of what you just posted has anything to do with right now. Of course the Reds will look at Taveras successor next year, he got a two year deal. And Stubbs is a candidate, as is Heisey, Dickerson and whomever from outside the organization. So basically we've narrowed down the 2011 CF to anyone playing CF anywhere. But that has nothing to do with this thread. Callup possibilities RIGHT NOW do not include Stubbs, Heisey or really anyone not named Rosales. Gomes is possible, but he better hit the snot out of the ball at AAA and even then, he doesn't fit into the Walt philosophy of speed, defense then hitting.

So, RIGHT NOW, I don't see anyone getting the call before the end of May barring injury, with Rosales being the most likely candidate.

HokieRed
04-13-2009, 03:24 PM
Might we see Rosales to 3b and EE to LF either as part of a platoon or by himself (given how out of favor CD seems to be)?

bucksfan2
04-13-2009, 03:25 PM
None of what you just posted has anything to do with right now. Of course the Reds will look at Taveras successor next year, he got a two year deal. And Stubbs is a candidate, as is Heisey, Dickerson and whomever from outside the organization. So basically we've narrowed down the 2011 CF to anyone playing CF anywhere. But that has nothing to do with this thread. Callup possibilities RIGHT NOW do not include Stubbs, Heisey or really anyone not named Rosales. Gomes is possible, but he better hit the snot out of the ball at AAA and even then, he doesn't fit into the Walt philosophy of speed, defense then hitting.

So, RIGHT NOW, I don't see anyone getting the call before the end of May barring injury, with Rosales being the most likely candidate.

I apologize for straying off topic.

Rosales may be the most likely call up right now. It seems as if Gonzo's knee is healthy enough to play almost every day, with the exceptions of day game after night game. I think the need for Janish to be on the team was an insurance plan on Gonzo's knee.

TRF
04-13-2009, 03:34 PM
Rosales may be the most likely call up right now. It seems as if Gonzo's knee is healthy enough to play almost every day, with the exceptions of day game after night game. I think the need for Janish to be on the team was an insurance plan on Gonzo's knee.

And if Rosales does get the call it will be at Janish' expense. Because JHJ can play everywhere. At least that is the bill being sold. Truth is he can't really play anywhere well except possibly CF. But playing him in CF has no benefit.

Janish has a defined role. He can play 2B and SS, and probably 3B too. I wouldn't start him over anyone, but I can see him as a defensive replacement/spot starter.

membengal
04-13-2009, 03:41 PM
Can Rosales play the OF too? If so, then perhaps the guy that would be moved to make room for him is Nix.

bucksfan2
04-13-2009, 03:44 PM
And if Rosales does get the call it will be at Janish' expense. Because JHJ can play everywhere. At least that is the bill being sold. Truth is he can't really play anywhere well except possibly CF. But playing him in CF has no benefit.

Janish has a defined role. He can play 2B and SS, and probably 3B too. I wouldn't start him over anyone, but I can see him as a defensive replacement/spot starter.

Rosales can play 1b, 2b, 3b, Im not so sure about SS because the Reds moved him off of SS. I would imagine in a pinch he could play SS, probably better than JHJ can. Until proven otherwise Janish is a younger, slightly better, version of Juan Castro. I have no problem sending Janish down to bring up a better bat in Rosales.

TRF
04-13-2009, 03:45 PM
Can Rosales play the OF too? If so, then perhaps the guy that would be moved to make room for him is Nix.

I believe he's played LF some.

BRM
04-13-2009, 03:50 PM
I believe he's played LF some.

According to Baseball-Reference, he's only played 2 games in LF in his minor league career. Both in 2007 with Chattanooga.

TRF
04-13-2009, 03:57 PM
well, that is "some"...

I think his bat will play better than JHJ's, and the OF has Nix and McDonald as 4th/5th OF's don't need 6.

But I guarantee JHJ is not going anywhere.

BRM
04-13-2009, 03:59 PM
I was actually surprised to see that he had only played two games there. I thought he had played more LF than that. Shows how much I know.

And I agree with you on JHJ. He's not going anywhere. I'm actually doubting the McDonald/Abad comparisons too. I think McDonald will be in Cincy for a longer stretch than I originally thought.

BearcatShane
04-13-2009, 04:34 PM
When Stubbs get called up is he the leadoff hitter of the future or what? He doesn't have much power but I do like his OBP and he can steal some bases.

BearcatShane
04-13-2009, 04:35 PM
"And I agree with you on JHJ. He's not going anywhere. I'm actually doubting the McDonald/Abad comparisons too. I think McDonald will be in Cincy for a longer stretch than I originally thought."


And maybe thats not as bad as I or others on here thought. He hasn't embarassed himself and he just might be somewhat valuable off the bench. We'll see.

Kc61
04-13-2009, 05:14 PM
I don't agree that Rosales would replace Janish. With Gonzo's injury history, I just don't see Janish going anyplace. The Reds want a true backup shorstop on the team and he is it.

Where Rosales fits in is that the Reds now have 6 outfielders. The reason was Taveras' early illness. WT is better now, so there's really no need for 6 outfielders. And certainly, Rosales can be a sixth outfielder if need be.

So the right move is to send an outfielder down and bring up Rosales.

Of course, the Reds may feel that their outfield situation is less clear than the infield. Platoons, very young guys, etc. in the outfield. So maybe that's why they want all the outfielders.

It will probably take an injury to get Rosales up to Cincy, which of course will happen at some point. But I don't think it will be at Janish's expense.

HokieRed
04-13-2009, 09:11 PM
Who will be better at 3rd, Rosales or EE? If Rosales, why not EE to LF?

mth123
04-13-2009, 09:23 PM
Who will be better at 3rd, Rosales or EE? If Rosales, why not EE to LF?

Because Votto goes to LF when Alonso comes. The choice is whether to make room for Alonso or make room for Rosales. I've been touting Rosales for two years as an Aaron Boone type, but if the choice is to make room for Alonso or make room for Rosales, Rosales sits.

HokieRed
04-13-2009, 09:44 PM
I've been saying that we need to make room for Alonso for the better part of the time since A was drafted. No argument there. Votto to left, Frazier to 3rd, Alonso to 1st. But I take it these are 2010 developments. I was asking about the nearer time frame.

_Sir_Charles_
04-15-2009, 01:41 AM
I think the first callup will be Rosales. And for the simple reason that we have NOBODY on the club right now who is a backup 1B. Or are we seriously considering using Hernandez there with his one ST game there? I'm sure someone "could" manage 1B, but Rosales actually has some experience with it (as well as the other IF positions). If he keeps hitting like he is...he'll force the Reds' hand regardless.

OnBaseMachine
04-15-2009, 02:28 AM
I'd bring up Adam Rosales ASAP. Send Darnell McDonald down and callup Rosales. That would still leave the Reds with five guys capable of playing the outfield - Bruce, Dickerson, Hairston, Nix and Taveras. Plus, Rosales can play some left field if needed.

My next move would be to find a taker for Mike Lincoln, if not him then Nick Masset, and then callup Carlos Fisher. Fisher is off to a great start in Louisville (4 IP, 2 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 6 K) and would provide the bullpen with another power arm to go along with Burton, Cordero, and Rhodes.

BoydsOfSummer
04-15-2009, 05:00 AM
Because Votto goes to LF when Alonso comes. The choice is whether to make room for Alonso or make room for Rosales. I've been touting Rosales for two years as an Aaron Boone type, but if the choice is to make room for Alonso or make room for Rosales, Rosales sits.

Votto is going to be like a 500 pound gorilla. He sits where he wants to sit! :D

_Sir_Charles_
04-15-2009, 11:13 AM
Votto is going to be like a 500 pound gorilla. He sits where he wants to sit! :D

I agree. Unless Yonder is some sort of superstud (and I haven't seen it yet...not even close), then I wouldn't move Joey. Heck, Alonso is a freaking professional athlete, are you telling me he couldn't learn the outfield? I always thought that was a pretty sad commentary on Alonso's skillset...he can ONLY play firstbase. *sigh* That kid better be able to knock the cover off the ball if he's THAT limited in the field. And even then...I don't think I bump Joey off his position for Yonder. I'd look to deal him to fill some real needs.

membengal
04-15-2009, 11:17 AM
Well, Alonso has only played a week. What were you expecting to see in that week, Sir Charles?

OnBaseMachine
04-15-2009, 11:20 AM
I agree. Unless Yonder is some sort of superstud (and I haven't seen it yet...not even close), then I wouldn't move Joey. Heck, Alonso is a freaking professional athlete, are you telling me he couldn't learn the outfield? I always thought that was a pretty sad commentary on Alonso's skillset...he can ONLY play firstbase. *sigh* That kid better be able to knock the cover off the ball if he's THAT limited in the field. And even then...I don't think I bump Joey off his position for Yonder. I'd look to deal him to fill some real needs.

After crushing the ball in college, Alonso posted a .929 OPS in the pitcher friendly Hawaiian Winter League. That's impressive.

Do you really want to try Alonso in the outfield? I don't. Alonso is a first baseman. That doesn't bother me at all because his bat is that good. He's got a chance to be a .300/.400/.550 type of hitter. Moving Votto to left field to make room for Alonso really strengthens the offense. An offense led by Alonso, Bruce, and Votto could be very special.

schmidty622
04-15-2009, 12:30 PM
After crushing the ball in college, Alonso posted a .929 OPS in the pitcher friendly Hawaiian Winter League. That's impressive.

Do you really want to try Alonso in the outfield? I don't. Alonso is a first baseman. That doesn't bother me at all because his bat is that good. He's got a chance to be a .300/.400/.550 type of hitter. Moving Votto to left field to make room for Alonso really strengthens the offense. An offense led by Alonso, Bruce, and Votto could be very special.

Don't forget Taveras and Gonzo!

_Sir_Charles_
04-15-2009, 07:58 PM
Well, Alonso has only played a week. What were you expecting to see in that week, Sir Charles?

No, it's not that. I'm saying that even if he DOES tear it up...it's still only tearing up the minors. Votto's proving that he can rake against big league pitchers and he's made large strides in the right direction defensively. I don't think it matters WHAT Yonder does down there...I'm not moving Votto off his position for an unproven rook. I think Yonder is trade bait...and I thought that when they drafted him (especially after his gold digging before signing). I think he'll be a VERY good player, but he's not exactly a fit for the Reds. I think we'll see him dealt either this year or next for big-league needs.

_Sir_Charles_
04-15-2009, 08:02 PM
After crushing the ball in college, Alonso posted a .929 OPS in the pitcher friendly Hawaiian Winter League. That's impressive.

Do you really want to try Alonso in the outfield? I don't. Alonso is a first baseman. That doesn't bother me at all because his bat is that good. He's got a chance to be a .300/.400/.550 type of hitter. Moving Votto to left field to make room for Alonso really strengthens the offense. An offense led by Alonso, Bruce, and Votto could be very special.

And it weakens the defense. We've already got a plethora of OF'ers coming up in the next year or two...do you really want to push Joey into that mix too? And to clarify...no, I don't really want to try Yonder in the OF...it's pretty clear that he's stuck at first. And to me that means he doesn't fit a need for the big club. But he's a HUGE trading chip to find a studly SS, CF'er or pitcher (or wherever else we develop a need).

membengal
04-15-2009, 08:43 PM
No, it's not that. I'm saying that even if he DOES tear it up...it's still only tearing up the minors. Votto's proving that he can rake against big league pitchers and he's made large strides in the right direction defensively. I don't think it matters WHAT Yonder does down there...I'm not moving Votto off his position for an unproven rook. I think Yonder is trade bait...and I thought that when they drafted him (especially after his gold digging before signing). I think he'll be a VERY good player, but he's not exactly a fit for the Reds. I think we'll see him dealt either this year or next for big-league needs.

So in your world, under no circumstances, does Alonso ever play for the Reds? Wow.

gedred69
04-15-2009, 10:57 PM
So in your world, under no circumstances, does Alonso ever play for the Reds? Wow.

And under what circumstances do you see a different scenerio? Votto may well develop into the leader of this team, and you want to move him to an alien position? Alonso looks to be something of equal talent, but do you move a young proven for a not yet proven? There is more than one equally interesting LF prospect, Dorn, Frazier---since the Reds seem to be trying to figure out how to get his bat in a line-up. What could the Reds get in return for either of them vs. Alonso? I am sure these are the lines the brass is thinking. Frazier will hit, Dorn will hit with Power, Alonso will purportedly do both. Hmm, what to do?

membengal
04-15-2009, 11:03 PM
Votto moves to LF. Under those circumstances.

Did the Reds send pete rose out of town? Or did he move?

Moving is not a new thing to get bats in the line-up and make a team as good as it can be.

nmculbreth
04-15-2009, 11:58 PM
And it weakens the defense. We've already got a plethora of OF'ers coming up in the next year or two...do you really want to push Joey into that mix too? And to clarify...no, I don't really want to try Yonder in the OF...it's pretty clear that he's stuck at first. And to me that means he doesn't fit a need for the big club. But he's a HUGE trading chip to find a studly SS, CF'er or pitcher (or wherever else we develop a need).

I've heard this argument bandied about but I question whether or not he'd be able to fetch the type of return that would make him worth dealing. This organization's biggest areas of need are at skill positions and I'm not sure that you're going to find an organization that is willing to swap an elite SS, CF, C or SP prospect for an elite 1B prospect. As a result I think if you look to trade Alonso you'd have to settle for getting a lesser prospect in return or a player who is less advanced.

I'm not sure either of those scenarios would be better than trying Votto in left and Alonso at 1B.

nate
04-16-2009, 09:41 AM
I've heard this argument bandied about but I question whether or not he'd be able to fetch the type of return that would make him worth dealing. This organization's biggest areas of need are at skill positions and I'm not sure that you're going to find an organization that is willing to swap an elite SS, CF, C or SP prospect for an elite 1B prospect. As a result I think if you look to trade Alonso you'd have to settle for getting a lesser prospect in return or a player who is less advanced.

I'm not sure either of those scenarios would be better than trying Votto in left and Alonso at 1B.

An excellent assessment.

TRF
04-16-2009, 10:52 AM
I have no problem with moving Votto to LF if Alonso destroys A, AA and AAA pitching. LF defense is not a big deal. A platoon of Dickerson/Taveras might work, though I'd just give the job to Dickerson.

Chris freaking Duncan has a regular gig in the OF in St. Louis. NOT a graceful defender by any means.

_Sir_Charles_
04-16-2009, 04:25 PM
So in your world, under no circumstances, does Alonso ever play for the Reds? Wow.

Not unless something happens to Votto (be it an injury, a drastic drop in production, etc).

Moving Votto to left does allow Yonder to play first. But it also blocks Dickerson, Frazier, Dorn, etc. It also pushes an excellent OF'er (dickerson/dorn/stubbs/whoever) out in favor of an unknown quality defender in left with Votto. And I really don't see Yonder being a better defender at first than Votto. Yonder's got a potentially great bat...but that's all it is right now. Potential. Joey's is already producing...big time.

College numbers are great, but what has he proven in the minors yet. How many players have we seen come in with great hype and never come close to living up to it? I'm not going to even think about moving Votto until Yonder forces us to consider it. And by that time, many things will have changed in both the big clubs make-up and in the minors.

schmidty622
04-16-2009, 04:48 PM
Not unless something happens to Votto (be it an injury, a drastic drop in production, etc).

Moving Votto to left does allow Yonder to play first. But it also blocks Dickerson, Frazier, Dorn, etc. It also pushes an excellent OF'er (dickerson/dorn/stubbs/whoever) out in favor of an unknown quality defender in left with Votto. And I really don't see Yonder being a better defender at first than Votto. Yonder's got a potentially great bat...but that's all it is right now. Potential. Joey's is already producing...big time.

College numbers are great, but what has he proven in the minors yet. How many players have we seen come in with great hype and never come close to living up to it? I'm not going to even think about moving Votto until Yonder forces us to consider it. And by that time, many things will have changed in both the big clubs make-up and in the minors.


Agree. Big time. :thumbup:

dougdirt
04-16-2009, 04:57 PM
Not unless something happens to Votto (be it an injury, a drastic drop in production, etc).

Moving Votto to left does allow Yonder to play first. But it also blocks Dickerson, Frazier, Dorn, etc. It also pushes an excellent OF'er (dickerson/dorn/stubbs/whoever) out in favor of an unknown quality defender in left with Votto. And I really don't see Yonder being a better defender at first than Votto. Yonder's got a potentially great bat...but that's all it is right now. Potential. Joey's is already producing...big time.

College numbers are great, but what has he proven in the minors yet. How many players have we seen come in with great hype and never come close to living up to it? I'm not going to even think about moving Votto until Yonder forces us to consider it. And by that time, many things will have changed in both the big clubs make-up and in the minors.

So you are going to trade Votto + Dickerson for a Votto + Alonso? Maybe its just me, but I don't see the Reds as seeing Dickerson or even Dorn as anything more than a stopgap for something better. Honestly, I don't think they are really in this conversation in a year and a half.

So really it comes down to is the downgrade in defense between Votto/whoever worth the upgrade on offense of Votto/Alonso? I think Votto is plenty athletic enough to play in LF. He may not be Chris Dickerson out there, but I don't see him being Carlos Lee out there either. And sure, Votto is good at first and likely better than Alonso is defensively over there, but Votto has the ability to move. Its not about moving him for a better player, its about moving him to make the Reds a better team.

The question that I have is what is going to produce a better overall result for the Reds in the future:

Joey Votto at first base and Dickerson/Dorn/Frazier in LF or Joey Votto in LF and Yonder Alonso at 1B? And ultimately I don't think its going to come down to someone being trade bait because is Yonder Alonso going to get you a ton more value than Todd Frazier before either guy steps onto the Major League field? No, they will both need to be the icing on the cake in a trade, not the cake itself.

nate
04-16-2009, 05:02 PM
Hasn't Votto actually played LF in the minors? I remember hearing mixed reports about his fielding out there. Was it good, bad or average?

BRM
04-16-2009, 05:07 PM
Hasn't Votto actually played LF in the minors? I remember hearing mixed reports about his fielding out there. Was it good, bad or average?

The reports were pretty bad from what I remember.

_Sir_Charles_
04-16-2009, 05:12 PM
I've heard this argument bandied about but I question whether or not he'd be able to fetch the type of return that would make him worth dealing. This organization's biggest areas of need are at skill positions and I'm not sure that you're going to find an organization that is willing to swap an elite SS, CF, C or SP prospect for an elite 1B prospect. As a result I think if you look to trade Alonso you'd have to settle for getting a lesser prospect in return or a player who is less advanced.

I'm not sure either of those scenarios would be better than trying Votto in left and Alonso at 1B.

I also wasn't implying it had to be a one for one trade. There are lots of possible scenerios out there if one only looks. Look, I'd LOVE to keep both Votto & Yonder if Yonder turns out to be what we hope he can be. But I just don't think it's a great fit and I think with a small bit of creative thinking we can improve the team MORE by moving him.

_Sir_Charles_
04-16-2009, 05:19 PM
So you are going to trade Votto + Dickerson for a Votto + Alonso? Maybe its just me, but I don't see the Reds as seeing Dickerson or even Dorn as anything more than a stopgap for something better. Honestly, I don't think they are really in this conversation in a year and a half.

So really it comes down to is the downgrade in defense between Votto/whoever worth the upgrade on offense of Votto/Alonso? I think Votto is plenty athletic enough to play in LF. He may not be Chris Dickerson out there, but I don't see him being Carlos Lee out there either. And sure, Votto is good at first and likely better than Alonso is defensively over there, but Votto has the ability to move. Its not about moving him for a better player, its about moving him to make the Reds a better team.

The question that I have is what is going to produce a better overall result for the Reds in the future:

Joey Votto at first base and Dickerson/Dorn/Frazier in LF or Joey Votto in LF and Yonder Alonso at 1B? And ultimately I don't think its going to come down to someone being trade bait because is Yonder Alonso going to get you a ton more value than Todd Frazier before either guy steps onto the Major League field? No, they will both need to be the icing on the cake in a trade, not the cake itself.

I think people are just misunderstading me. People are wanting to plan to move Votto sooner rather than later when Yonder hasn't even proven if he can hit his way out of a paper bag in SINGLE A yet. Let's wait until he's at least at AAA before we begin seriously considering something like this. It could easily be 2-3 years down the line...maybe longer depending on how he develops...or IF he develops. Too many "ifs" in my book right now.

nate
04-16-2009, 05:31 PM
I think people are just misunderstading me. People are wanting to plan to move Votto sooner rather than later when Yonder hasn't even proven if he can hit his way out of a paper bag in SINGLE A yet.

Not only untrue but what's the point? The guy has had all of 19 ABs in A ball. He's hit pretty well in those 19 ABs (.316/.440/.368/.808)


Let's wait until he's at least at AAA before we begin seriously considering something like this.

Yes, let's.


It could easily be 2-3 years down the line...maybe longer

Or shorter.

One doesn't know until they know.

You know?

dougdirt
04-16-2009, 05:35 PM
I think people are just misunderstading me. People are wanting to plan to move Votto sooner rather than later when Yonder hasn't even proven if he can hit his way out of a paper bag in SINGLE A yet. Let's wait until he's at least at AAA before we begin seriously considering something like this. It could easily be 2-3 years down the line...maybe longer depending on how he develops...or IF he develops. Too many "ifs" in my book right now.

Well Alonso tore through an extreme hitters league in Hawaii like it was his job last November in over 100 at bats against other top prospects, so lets not push that he hasn't proven he can't hit his way out of a paper bag just yet. Again though, your stance comes off that even if Alonso beats up AAA you don't move Votto because Votto has done it in the majors.

dougdirt
04-16-2009, 05:37 PM
Hasn't Votto actually played LF in the minors? I remember hearing mixed reports about his fielding out there. Was it good, bad or average?

He showed solid range, but also showed inexperience on routes he took to some balls. Certainly athletic enough to make the move, just going to need work like any infielder moving to a corner outfield spot.

OnBaseMachine
04-16-2009, 05:38 PM
Hasn't Votto actually played LF in the minors? I remember hearing mixed reports about his fielding out there. Was it good, bad or average?

Baseball America says Votto adapted to the position quicker than expected while showing average range and a plus arm. Kevin Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus said the exact same thing.

nate
04-16-2009, 05:43 PM
Heh, this is what I mean by "mixed reports!"

_Sir_Charles_
04-16-2009, 06:01 PM
Well Alonso tore through an extreme hitters league in Hawaii like it was his job last November in over 100 at bats against other top prospects, so lets not push that he hasn't proven he can't hit his way out of a paper bag just yet. Again though, your stance comes off that even if Alonso beats up AAA you don't move Votto because Votto has done it in the majors.

No, I'm saying that it's too early for this discussion. If Alonso beats up AAA and NOTHING has changed at the big league level, then I'd consider moving either Joey or Alonso to add his bat. But the odds of nothing changing between now and him raking in AAA are astronomical. EE could be dealt or moved to a new position. Dickerson could be moved to CF full time by then (or Stubbs even) and a huge hole opens up in left for a Dorn or a Frazier who produces well above expectations. There's just too many possibilities at this point. But to start training Joey to play LF because there's a young rook with "potential" is kind of insulting to Joey who's already proving that he belongs.

I think the biggest thing that bugs me about this discussion is the fact that it's always a proven player getting moved around for Alonso because he's incapable of playing any position besides first. That's a pretty sad commentary on his athletic ability if it's true IMO.

dougdirt
04-16-2009, 06:05 PM
I think the biggest thing that bugs me about this discussion is the fact that it's always a proven player getting moved around for Alonso because he's incapable of playing any position besides first. That's a pretty sad commentary on his athletic ability if it's true IMO.

You don't have to have athletic legs to hit. Alonso has very good hand eye coordination and thats what matters for him. He won't ever make a living playing defense. Its not a knock on him just like its not a knock on Prince Fielder. Some guys can just hit and their defensive position or positional limitedness isn't all that important.

_Sir_Charles_
04-16-2009, 06:12 PM
Not only untrue but what's the point? The guy has had all of 19 ABs in A ball. He's hit pretty well in those 19 ABs (.316/.440/.368/.808)

Where are you looking at for those stats? I'm seeing a BA of .143. Just curious.

To clarify, we actually agree here. I'm not saying he can't hit his way out of a paper bag. He can. The kids got a GREAT bat IMO and is by far the best prospect in our system. I was only saying that's it's only 20 or so AB's...he hasn't "proven" anything yet. It's too early for this topic.

_Sir_Charles_
04-16-2009, 06:17 PM
You don't have to have athletic legs to hit. Alonso has very good hand eye coordination and thats what matters for him. He won't ever make a living playing defense. Its not a knock on him just like its not a knock on Prince Fielder. Some guys can just hit and their defensive position or positional limitedness isn't all that important.

I disagree with this last point. At least in regards to the Reds. I just think that if he's got THAT good of a stick and is THAT poor with the leather...he's a DH in the making. And like I said earlier...that's not a great fit with the Reds as they're laid out.

IMO, instead of working on moving Votto to Left, we instead spend his time in the minors working on him improving his defense and his positional flexibility. If defense in LF is so unimportant (as many here seem to say...which I disagree with) then why shouldn't he be working on THAT skill while he's in the minors where players are supposed to be learning. Learning on the job in the Majors isn't as forgiving as learning on the job in the minors. Just my opinion.

nate
04-16-2009, 06:22 PM
Where are you looking at for those stats? I'm seeing a BA of .143. Just curious.

Here. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=alonso001yon)


To clarify, we actually agree here. I'm not saying he can't hit his way out of a paper bag. I must've misread that, then! :cool:


He can. The kids got a GREAT bat IMO and is by far the best prospect in our system. I was only saying that's it's only 20 or so AB's...he hasn't "proven" anything yet. It's too early for this topic.It is.

But I think the Reds do have to start considering this because if Alonso is everything he's cracked up to be, it's better to have a plan sooner rather than later.

nate
04-16-2009, 06:26 PM
I disagree with this last point. At least in regards to the Reds. I just think that if he's got THAT good of a stick and is THAT poor with the leather...he's a DH in the making.

Just being able to play one position doesn't make someone poor with the leather.


If defense in LF is so unimportant (as many here seem to say...which I disagree with) I think you misunderstand the argument.

_Sir_Charles_
04-16-2009, 06:30 PM
Here. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=alonso001yon)

I must've misread that, then! :cool:

It is.

But I think the Reds do have to start considering this because if Alonso is everything he's cracked up to be, it's better to have a plan sooner rather than later.


Oh...his stats from late last season. Sorry, I was looking at this season so far. My bad.

I agree that the Reds need to be thinking about the potential log-jam...but I also think they need to be thinking about it from the other direction. In terms of Yonder learning rather than Joey learning. It's what the minors are for after all. And that goes for ALL the minor leaguers...not just Yonder. They've got to continue to work on finding positions for guys like Francisco, Frazier, Valaika, etc. But while those guys have developed positional flexibility, this thread promotes a different tack for Yonder. That's the point I disagree with (that, and the timing of the discussion). I've got NOTHING against the kids' stick. :O)

_Sir_Charles_
04-16-2009, 06:35 PM
Just being able to play one position doesn't make someone poor with the leather.

Fair enough. I should've said poor with his range? Or footwork? Either way...that's something you work on to improve down on the farm.


I think you misunderstand the argument.

Not really. I know you guys aren't saying LF defense isn't important. You're saying it's not AS important as the key positions. That you're willing to accept a sub-par glove in LF if the bat makes up for it. It also seems to be the place that people are willing to "dump" players who lack defensive skills. IMO, if you're not ready to play at least an AVERAGE LF...then you need to stay in the minors until you learn to field a position at least adequetly....or look to DH.

nate
04-16-2009, 06:38 PM
Oh...his stats from late last season. Sorry, I was looking at this season so far. My bad.

I agree that the Reds need to be thinking about the potential log-jam...but I also think they need to be thinking about it from the other direction. In terms of Yonder learning rather than Joey learning.

If they don't think he can or should move position, why waste the time and resources to change him?


It's what the minors are for after all. And that goes for ALL the minor leaguers...not just Yonder. OK...yes?


They've got to continue to work on finding positions for guys like Francisco, Frazier, Valaika, etc. Or they don't and those players are used as trading chips.


But while those guys have developed positional flexibility, this thread promotes a different tack for Yonder. That's the point I disagree with (that, and the timing of the discussion). I don't think every player has to rent a U-haul to carry their gloves around. That's like worrying about the sprinkles on the cake before seeing if you have eggs.

_Sir_Charles_
04-16-2009, 06:46 PM
If they don't think he can or should move position, why waste the time and resources to change him?

If they truthfully don't think he can or should...no, they shouldn't waste their time. But they should also be open to moving him for a player that fits the needs of the big club better.

If Joey continues to rake like he has so far and in the second half last year....

If Joey develops into a GG defender....

If Joey approaches MVP consideration status....

Do you still move him because he's blocking Yonder?

I know it's a lot of "ifs", but that's what Yonder is right now as well...an "if". Oh well, I'm done for now. I'll think about it more after we have a better idea of what we've got in Yonder. Let's hope he FORCES this discussion on us sooner rather than later. :O)

nate
04-16-2009, 06:47 PM
Fair enough. I should've said poor with his range? Or footwork? Either way...that's something you work on to improve down on the farm.

I'm guessing they'll do just that with him.


Not really. I know you guys aren't saying LF defense isn't important. OK, I must've misread that one too. :cool:


You're saying it's not AS important as the key positions. Right, it isn't as important as SS or CF.


That you're willing to accept a sub-par glove in LF if the bat makes up for it. It depends on the rest of the lineup.


It also seems to be the place that people are willing to "dump" players who lack defensive skills.It depends on the rest of the lineup.


IMO, if you're not ready to play at least an AVERAGE LF...then you need to stay in the minors until you learn to field a position at least adequetly....or look to DH.IMO some bats break that "rule."

dougdirt
04-16-2009, 07:06 PM
I disagree with this last point. At least in regards to the Reds. I just think that if he's got THAT good of a stick and is THAT poor with the leather...he's a DH in the making. And like I said earlier...that's not a great fit with the Reds as they're laid out. Its not that he is poor with the leather, its that he is limited range wise and its why he is a first baseman. His glove is fine. Its his range that isn't the best, but at first base, that doesn't matter all that much.



IMO, instead of working on moving Votto to Left, we instead spend his time in the minors working on him improving his defense and his positional flexibility. If defense in LF is so unimportant (as many here seem to say...which I disagree with) then why shouldn't he be working on THAT skill while he's in the minors where players are supposed to be learning. Learning on the job in the Majors isn't as forgiving as learning on the job in the minors. Just my opinion.

Well Votto, unlike Alonso, has the ability to play LF because he can run decent enough to play out there. Alonso simply can't. I am with you that LF defense matters. Votto can be fine out there though in my opinion. Give him notice the fall before hand and let him work there in the offseason and in spring training.

dougdirt
04-16-2009, 07:07 PM
If they truthfully don't think he can or should...no, they shouldn't waste their time. But they should also be open to moving him for a player that fits the needs of the big club better.

If Joey continues to rake like he has so far and in the second half last year....

If Joey develops into a GG defender....

If Joey approaches MVP consideration status....

Do you still move him because he's blocking Yonder?

I know it's a lot of "ifs", but that's what Yonder is right now as well...an "if". Oh well, I'm done for now. I'll think about it more after we have a better idea of what we've got in Yonder. Let's hope he FORCES this discussion on us sooner rather than later. :O)

If it means I can have average defense at two positions with two .900 OPS bats rather than Votto at 1B and an .800 OPS bat in LF, absolutely I move Votto.

GIDP
04-16-2009, 07:10 PM
I have 100% faith that Joey Votto could make the move and do well at it if he needed to. Hard workers like him doesnt seem to come along much.

nmculbreth
04-16-2009, 07:52 PM
I also wasn't implying it had to be a one for one trade. There are lots of possible scenerios out there if one only looks. Look, I'd LOVE to keep both Votto & Yonder if Yonder turns out to be what we hope he can be. But I just don't think it's a great fit and I think with a small bit of creative thinking we can improve the team MORE by moving him.

I'm not saying that the Reds shouldn't explore the possibility of dealing Alonso (or any of their corner IFs / OFs) in order to address their areas of need, I just think that it's important to temper expectations about the kind of return he'd yield.

That being said, given the value of advanced, elite skill position prospects, I suspect that the organization will find the cost associated with such a deal to be prohibitive. As a result I think if the organization does look to address their needs at SS or C, they'll need to target players with a lower ceilings and I'd hate to include a potential .300 / .400 / .550 to get an Erick Aybar type player in return.

bucksfan2
04-17-2009, 08:55 AM
So you are going to trade Votto + Dickerson for a Votto + Alonso? Maybe its just me, but I don't see the Reds as seeing Dickerson or even Dorn as anything more than a stopgap for something better. Honestly, I don't think they are really in this conversation in a year and a half.

So really it comes down to is the downgrade in defense between Votto/whoever worth the upgrade on offense of Votto/Alonso? I think Votto is plenty athletic enough to play in LF. He may not be Chris Dickerson out there, but I don't see him being Carlos Lee out there either. And sure, Votto is good at first and likely better than Alonso is defensively over there, but Votto has the ability to move. Its not about moving him for a better player, its about moving him to make the Reds a better team.

The question that I have is what is going to produce a better overall result for the Reds in the future:

Joey Votto at first base and Dickerson/Dorn/Frazier in LF or Joey Votto in LF and Yonder Alonso at 1B? And ultimately I don't think its going to come down to someone being trade bait because is Yonder Alonso going to get you a ton more value than Todd Frazier before either guy steps onto the Major League field? No, they will both need to be the icing on the cake in a trade, not the cake itself.

Your not trading Votto + Dickerson for Votto + Alonso. If you keep Votto at first you would then be inclined to trade Alonso for some other return. Or the issue could become that the Reds feel they can get the best value with Votto at 1B and Frazier in LF. These moves aren't made in a vacuum, they are made with other considerations.

What I find slightly interesting is the Reds decided to keep Votto at 1b this season. From my view point Votto is proving himself to be the Reds leader and best player. I just don't see the Reds going to Votto this off season, sending him to Arizona to work on playing LF. The time to make that move was this past off season. Now they have a guy who every day continues to make defensive improvements at 1b and is becoming at top notch defender. Too often we overlook the value of a good defensive 1b. Guys like Pujols and Lee save their infielders errors with their ability to dig out bad throws, accurately start a 3-6-1/3 double play. Gun out a runner going to second on a marginal bunt.

The Reds clearly went BPA in the draft with Alonso. They did the same thing with Bruce years ago. When the Reds drafted Bruce there were questions as to why the Reds used a high pick on a HS outfielder. Now that all seems like a moot point. The Alonso situation may work itself out in the same manner or Alonso may never play a single game in a Reds uniform. It is still yet to be determined.

Kc61
04-17-2009, 10:05 AM
One thing for sure, is that Alonso is unproven so this question about Votto/Alonso is not immediate. It may take all of two seasons to play out.

My own view is that Votto is better than the Reds thought. They may have intended to move his position or trade him, but now they have to ask whether he should be a bedrock of the next several years.

At the same time, Alonso was not put at AA yet, the Reds obviously felt he needed some High A time, and he's off slowly.

All this would be a non-issue if the NL would adopt the DH rule.

TRF
04-17-2009, 03:34 PM
All this would be a non-issue if the NL would adopt the DH rule.

blasphemer.

membengal
04-22-2009, 11:14 AM
So Alonso is all of a sudden up to an .804 OPS after last night's raking. Consider that a forerunner of what is to come.

Currently through 11 games:


.250/.327/.477 with 2 hr 4 doubles 11 rbi

osuceltic
04-22-2009, 01:00 PM
So Alonso is all of a sudden up to an .804 OPS after last night's raking. Consider that a forerunner of what is to come.

Currently through 11 games:

I know it's a small sample size, but how is he doing against left-handers? That's the real question to me. I'm pretty sure he'll hammer right-handers, but not at all sure he'll get it done against lefties. Any early indications?

camisadelgolf
04-22-2009, 02:08 PM
I know it's a small sample size, but how is he doing against left-handers? That's the real question to me. I'm pretty sure he'll hammer right-handers, but not at all sure he'll get it done against lefties. Any early indications?
So far, he's batting .125 in 18 plate appearances (two walks). He's crushing right-handers, though. Obviously, it's a small sample size, but I'd be surprised if this weren't an indication that he's going to have a lot more success against right-handed pitching.

Captain Hook
04-24-2009, 12:40 AM
Gomes is 6-11 with 2 BB and a HR in his last three games.Nice to see him showing signs of getting hot.I'm not sure what we would do with him but if he could keep this up he would be a nice option in the case that Hairston Jr. gets hurt.I imagine it won't be long.