PDA

View Full Version : Is Chris Heisey underrated?



Boss-Hog
04-17-2009, 06:19 PM
Please use this thread for any discussion relating to Chris Heisey.

OnBaseMachine
04-17-2009, 06:37 PM
Q: Dave from Massachusetts asks:
When will BA recognize Chris Heisey is a prospect? Hitting leadoff for AA Carolina .417/.563/.875, 2 2Bs, 3 HRs, 6 BB/2 K, 3 for 3 in steals He may be 24, but he's coming out of a small school, and he just seems to be getting better and better.

A: Jim Callis: Maybe before the season, when we ranked him No. 22 on our Reds list in the Prospect Handbook? Maybe going into 2008, if you want to include us listing him on the Reds depth chart in the Handbook two years ago?

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/chat/2009/267981.html

lollipopcurve
04-17-2009, 07:59 PM
That was my question.

Trenchant exchange with the hated Callis, wouldn't you say?

Anyway, I do declare that I have been the driver of the Heisey bandwagon, and the seats are filling up fast.

RED VAN HOT
04-18-2009, 01:59 AM
I may not have been driving, but I have been sitting close to the front for over a year.

Benihana
04-21-2009, 08:16 PM
I've never been on the bandwagon, but he has definitely piqued my interest with his play to start the season.

Unfortunately, however, I still see him as a 4th/5th OF in the bigs. If he can sustain this level of play over the next couple of months, I may start to reexamine his case.

camisadelgolf
04-21-2009, 08:17 PM
His numbers suggest that he could be a starting outfielder in MLB, but anyone who has seen him will tell you that he looks like a reserve outfielder. "He plays the game the right way," but unfortunately, he doesn't quite have enough talent to be counted on as an above-average player at this point.

mth123
04-21-2009, 08:26 PM
I've never been on the bandwagon, but he has definitely piqued my interest with his play to start the season.

Unfortunately, however, I still see him as a 4th/5th OF in the bigs. If he can sustain this level of play over the next couple of months, I may start to reexamine his case.

I kind of have the same expectations, but that's a perfectly fine way to get a cheap RH half of a platoon (pair him with Dickerson in CF). The team could save money on guys like Willy and make Stubbs, who has more trade value but realistically a similar projection, available in a deal.

Benihana
04-21-2009, 08:53 PM
I kind of have the same expectations, but that's a perfectly fine way to get a cheap RH half of a platoon (pair him with Dickerson in CF). The team could save money on guys like Willy and make Stubbs, who has more trade value but realistically a similar projection, available in a deal.

I like it. Either way I'd like to see one of these three (Stubbs, Taveras, Heisey) platooning with Dickerson next year (probably in that order.)

schmidty622
04-22-2009, 04:37 PM
I like it. Either way I'd like to see one of these three (Stubbs, Taveras, Heisey) platooning with Dickerson next year (probably in that order.)

Isn't Stubbs a lefty? That wouldn't make for a great platoon. Although I'm not 100% sure that his is a lefty.

BRM
04-22-2009, 04:41 PM
Isn't Stubbs a lefty? That wouldn't make for a great platoon. Although I'm not 100% sure that his is a lefty.

Stubbs hits RH.

camisadelgolf
04-22-2009, 04:42 PM
Stubbs is right-handed.

edit: BRM wins.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2009, 08:48 PM
Late-Round Gem

For a 17th-round pick from Messiah (Pa.) College, Chris Heisey has already exceeded expectations making it up to Double-A Carolina. Now it looks like the Reds’ 24-year-old center fielder might have a future in the big leagues in some capacity.

Yesterday Heisey did a little bit of everything, going 2-for-4 with a triple, a double, walk a stolen base and three runs scored, putting his season line at .326/.473/.674 through 13 games.

“He does a lot of things well,” Carolina manager David Bell said. “He’s a very well-rounded baseball player. He plays the game hard, plays to win and he does everything. He can run, he can hit, he has some power and he gets good jumps on the ball in the outfield.”

The six-foot, 200-pound center fielder doesn’t have a standout tool, but he gets the most out of his physical abilities with a good approach at the plate. Last year in high Class A Sarasota, Heisey had 57 walks and 69 strikeouts, batting .287/.381/.438 in 117 games before earning a promotion to Double-A late in the season for 19 games.

“You don’t really have to do much with a guy like that,” Bell said. “There’s no motivation involved—he has all that inside. He’s got that inner confidence and inner desire that you can’t teach.”

http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/prospects/?p=3589#more-3589

lollipopcurve
04-24-2009, 09:53 AM
Late-Round Gem

For a 17th-round pick from Messiah (Pa.) College, Chris Heisey has already exceeded expectations making it up to Double-A Carolina. Now it looks like the Reds’ 24-year-old center fielder might have a future in the big leagues in some capacity.

Yesterday Heisey did a little bit of everything, going 2-for-4 with a triple, a double, walk a stolen base and three runs scored, putting his season line at .326/.473/.674 through 13 games.

“He does a lot of things well,” Carolina manager David Bell said. “He’s a very well-rounded baseball player. He plays the game hard, plays to win and he does everything. He can run, he can hit, he has some power and he gets good jumps on the ball in the outfield.”

The six-foot, 200-pound center fielder doesn’t have a standout tool, but he gets the most out of his physical abilities with a good approach at the plate. Last year in high Class A Sarasota, Heisey had 57 walks and 69 strikeouts, batting .287/.381/.438 in 117 games before earning a promotion to Double-A late in the season for 19 games.

“You don’t really have to do much with a guy like that,” Bell said. “There’s no motivation involved—he has all that inside. He’s got that inner confidence and inner desire that you can’t teach.”

Yep. Finally goaded BA into admitting Heisey can play. Glad to see it!

mth123
04-24-2009, 09:58 AM
Yep. Finally goaded BA into admitting Heisey can play. Glad to see it!

A little buzz never hurts a prospect's value.

princeton
04-24-2009, 11:09 AM
Heisey is now overrated

krm1580
04-26-2009, 12:10 AM
I had the chance to see the Mudcats on Friday and I left very impressed with Heisey. He has a quick swing, good balance and everything he hit was hit hard including and absolute rocket of a HR in the first. He made a couple of nice catches and really impressed me with his arm that was much better than I thought. I am now really interested to see how he will do against more advanced pitching.

On the flip side a prospect I did sour on was Francisco. He has long swing and gets tremendous torque from his body rotation which gives him huge power potential. The problem though is it seem like it takes him so long to uncoil everything he really needs to commit to swing earlier which is why he strikes out at such an alarming rate. I really think he is going to struggle at the higher levels.

AmarilloRed
04-28-2009, 02:03 AM
Helsey went 3 for 4 tonight to raise his BA to .373. It's time to give Helsey a promotion to AAA.

OnBaseMachine
04-28-2009, 02:36 AM
I'm becoming more and more convinced that Chris Heisey will be a good major leaguer. Heisey may lack plus tools, but there are plenty of guys in the majors who have made up for lack of tools through hard work. Kevin Youkilis, Dustin Pedroia, Mark DeRosa, Shane Victorino are just a few that come to mind. I'm not saying Heisey can or will be a star player, but I think he's got a chance to be an above average major league center fielder.

His power is developing nicely so far (six doubles, one triple, four homers in 59atbats) to go along with his good plate discipline (11 walks to only 5 strikeouts). He's also a terrific base stealer (32-for-34 in 2008, 6-for-6 in 2009). He's a smart player who continues to get better and better each season. His statline now stands at .373/.486/.712 - 1.198. If he keeps this up, he may reach Cincy by the end of the season.

Sea Ray
04-28-2009, 11:32 AM
Sounds like Brady Clark who was no slouch as a major leaguer

Rojo
04-29-2009, 12:29 AM
I like Heisey and want to like him even more. Two concerns:

One is that he struggled a little against righties, IIRC. Not hitting lefties doesn't bother me because kids don't see that many. But not hitting righties can mean you can't get around on the hard stuff.

Two is the he didn't always play center on his teams. For his game to translate to the bigs, he's got be a plus centerfielder.

Of course, these are both recollections -- finding past year splits and outfield positions is impossible.

OnBaseMachine
05-08-2009, 03:52 PM
Heisey had another big game last night. Through 98 atbats, Heisey is hitting .378/.479/.653 - 1.132 with 10 doubles, 1 triple, and 5 home runs. He's walked 17 times and only struckout six times and is 7-for-8 in stolen base attempts. The 17 BB/6 K is what really sticks out to me. Could he be the Reds starting center fielder by September?

WILD THING
05-08-2009, 03:59 PM
Any way he can be our left fielder? I'm growing accustomed to seeing Taveras in CF and at the leadoff spot. I know that's probably not a popular thought based on what I've read about what people think of Willy T on here, but I think he's going to prove to be a strong contributor throughout the season.

GOYA
05-08-2009, 05:02 PM
It's becoming apparent that Heisey needs to move up to AAA. The problem is, the AAA CF is not ready just yet to move to the majors and is not going to be replaced by Heisey. (Stubbs) So what do you do with him? Do you take ABs away from hot hitting Gomes or Hopper? Unfortunately for Heisey, I just don't see him moving up anytime soon.

Bumstead
05-08-2009, 06:07 PM
As I said in another thread in regards to Chris Heisey moving to AAA, the decision to move Heisey (a possible starter at the MLB level) to AAA shouldn't be impeded by guys like Gomes or Hopper...demote 'em, cut 'em, just move them so that our prospect can continue to 'grow.' No reason to protect potential 5th OF's over potential quality starters.

Bum

RedsManRick
05-08-2009, 07:37 PM
It's becoming apparent that Heisey needs to move up to AAA. The problem is, the AAA CF is not ready just yet to move to the majors and is not going to be replaced by Heisey. (Stubbs) So what do you do with him? Do you take ABs away from hot hitting Gomes or Hopper? Unfortunately for Heisey, I just don't see him moving up anytime soon.

Hopper is a non-prospect and a lesser version of Taveras. If you have to cut him (or somebody lower on the roster) loose to promote real prospects, you do so.

Benihana
05-08-2009, 08:01 PM
Hopper is a non-prospect and a lesser version of Taveras. If you have to cut him (or somebody lower on the roster) loose to promote real prospects, you do so.

Agreed. Gomes, however, is another story. He could potentially help the big club this season so I'd keep him around.

Will M
05-08-2009, 08:13 PM
Agreed. Gomes, however, is another story. He could potentially help the big club this season so I'd keep him around.

Gomes or Bankston should have been here last week & platooning in LF with Nix. They offer a lot more as a LF platoon partner than Hairston does.

redhawk61
05-08-2009, 08:29 PM
I don't why the Reds don't cut McDonald, call up Gomes, and promote Heisey to AAA. What is the problem. Its not hard. McDonald isn't offering anything right now, and at least Gomes has had major league success. All McDonald offers over Gomes is defense, but his skills there definitely don't out weigh his lack of anything at the dish.

Even though its only 20 AB's, Gomes against lefties: .400/.500/.900 with 3 HR's.......

BuckeyeRedleg
05-09-2009, 12:34 AM
Heisey may be the next Denorfia around here. :)

Seriously, though. How do they compare for anyone that's seen both?

membengal
05-09-2009, 12:39 AM
I don't recall Denorfia's stats ever being remotely as good as what Heisey is putting up right now.

ChatterRed
05-10-2009, 03:55 AM
Helsey went 3 for 4 tonight to raise his BA to .373. It's time to give Helsey a promotion to AAA.

Yep. I came on here to say the same thing. Triple AAA is lacking in potential major league position players. He should be moved up. He might be able to help at some point if he continues to dominate the next level. We need to find out.

nemesis
05-10-2009, 01:08 PM
The way the Reds regard him reminds me of the way they regarded Hanigan. They will make him prove over and over and over again. They are similar hitters, both play above avg defense at premium positions. Both are extremly patient hitters and Heisley will walk more, strikeout less, adds the bonus of speed and probaly will have ok power numbers in the range of 25 2B 5 3B and 8 HR. I really think he could OBP over .375 at the ML level. OPS probaly around .750 to .780 maybe touching over .800 in a good season. He could steal 30 to 35 bases consistantly. If Stubbs was putting up these kinds of numbers we'd be screaming for him in Cincy.

Brutus
05-13-2009, 03:04 PM
I'm just recently coming to the party on Chris Heisey. I've seen much of the discussion here about his potential after the start he's had in 2009. My question is this: what were his final numbers like in 2008? I only heard a little about him last season, and though I remember checking up on his progress a few times last year, I can't say I ever saw his final stat line.

I also am one of those people that still think a player can be a solid starter in the major leagues without plus-tools. Even just good tools but not exceptional in any one area can lead to a pretty good player. OBM mentioned Shane Victorino and a few others. I think that's a great point. I'll take guys like Victorino, Nick Johnson, Freddy Sanchez and heck, even a Mark DeRosa - guys that play hard, play the game well, can give solid defense and develop into solid players especially while being professional hitters. Granted, I think you need some legitimate offensive weapons on every team, but the core of your offense can be made up of these types.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-13-2009, 03:18 PM
I'm just recently coming to the party on Chris Heisey. I've seen much of the discussion here about his potential after the start he's had in 2009. My question is this: what were his final numbers like in 2008? I only heard a little about him last season, and though I remember checking up on his progress a few times last year, I can't say I ever saw his final stat line.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/H/Chris-Heisey.shtml

lollipopcurve
05-13-2009, 03:19 PM
what were his final numbers like in 2008?

Quite good. Go to www.minorleaguebaseball.com and look him up.

Brutus
05-13-2009, 03:34 PM
Thanks guys.

Beyond walk rate, it seems as though his rate stats in 79 at-bats were almost all even better at Double-A than Single-A. His OPS was better and was on pace for double-digit home runs had he been given 400-500 plate appearances at that level.

TRF
05-13-2009, 03:52 PM
I like Heisey and want to like him even more. Two concerns:

One is that he struggled a little against righties, IIRC. Not hitting lefties doesn't bother me because kids don't see that many. But not hitting righties can mean you can't get around on the hard stuff.

Two is the he didn't always play center on his teams. For his game to translate to the bigs, he's got be a plus centerfielder.

Of course, these are both recollections -- finding past year splits and outfield positions is impossible.

http://www.minorleaguesplits.com has his numbers going back to 2006, vs pitcher, and how he did by position. dandy site.

Mario-Rijo
06-01-2009, 12:20 AM
Don't know if this was ever posted but did a search on him and found this, a good read.


Furm's Take: Catching (And Keeping) Up With Heisey
By Cory Furman
Assistant Athletics Director, Messiah College

Posted Oct. 18, 2008
Former standout Chris Heisey showed up for Messiah's Homecoming Saturday. He and wife Lisa will move to Puerto Rico Sunday. Grantham, PA — It’s clear now that Ken Griffey Jr. has a sense of humor to match his 611 career major league home runs. But what’s with these stick-in-the mud, vole-brained fans?

It was March 27th of this year and the Cincinnati Reds were hosting the Minnesota Twins at their spring training facility in Sarasota, Florida. Griffey had just hit a towering long ball to right-center field, sending Ed Smith Stadium’s 7,500 sun-baked enthusiasts to their feet.

Toiling in the Reds’ dugout at that very moment was former Messiah standout outfielder Chris Heisey. The Falcons’ first All-American baseball player in school history, Heisey left Messiah following his junior year, selected as the 504th pick overall in the 2006 Major League Baseball Draft. He was now in uniform for his third spring training game with the big-league Reds before settling in permanently with the home team, the A-level Sarasota Reds.

And the big league coaching staff was having fun with him.

“When Ken gets back in here, I dare you to tell him, ‘You’re out of the game, old man,’” said Reds’ third base coach Mark Berry.

Heisey did. And Griffey laughed. Baseball humor at it’s finest, right?

Those fuddy-duddy, mossback fans didn’t find the joke as funny.

“When I jogged on the field after the inning was over, I was booed pretty badly,” Heisey recalls. “People didn’t want to see me. They wanted to see Ken Griffey Jr. He had just hit a home run, and here I was taking his place in right field. So much for a usual entrance.”

But that’s been pretty much Chris Heisey’s life since he left Messiah in the spring of ’06. With the dream of becoming the school’s first alum to make it to the majors, Heisey’s voyage over the last two and a half years has been a nomadic minor league trail littered with drop-of-the-hat moves, call-ups and opportunities.

“It’s not for everyone,” Heisey said while visiting his alma mater over this weekend’s Homecoming festivities. “There have been challenges, and doing this doesn’t exactly lend itself to the most stable lifestyle. But I can only follow this dream once. And I’m enjoying it.”

Still the Falcons’ career leader in batting average (.405), total bases (294), doubles (41) and home runs (23), Heisey made the difficult choice to forgo his senior year of college to enter the draft, though he vows to finish his degree later. He was selected by the Reds in the 17th round, first being sent to the rookie-league Billings (Montana) Mustangs before moving up to the A-ball Dayton Dragons at the outset of the 2007 season. From there, the six-foot, 205 pound speedy outfielder was called up to Sarasota in mid-season, a stint truncated by a broken left thumb after just 12 games.

“I was sliding into first base and it just bent the wrong way,” he said.

It would only be a slight bump in the road rather than a detour for Heisey, as he returned to his Lancaster-area home and began rehabbing over the winter. He worked construction to pay the bills and married Messiah field hockey standout Lisa Strausbaugh, who — by virtue of the union— became Chris’ minor league co-pilot.

“I like to be in control, I like to know what’s going on, but those thoughts have changed,” Lisa said. “I used to ask questions like, ‘When are we going to get settled down somewhere?’ I don’t ask that specific question anymore.”

I’ll say. Heisey returned to Sarasota at the start of this baseball season, with Lisa joining following her graduation in May. The couple then spent the better part of three months with the club, and Lisa made friends with some of the coaches’ wives and players’ girlfriends.

It didn’t last long.

“I got a call at five o’clock in the evening on August 11th from (Sarasota Reds manager) Joe Ayrault saying that Chris had been called up to double-A Chattanooga,” Lisa remembers. “He had a seven o’clock game that night, and I wasn’t allowed to even tell him that he had been called up, because an injury during the game could nullify it. He had to be on a plane at 7 a.m. the next morning.”

Heisey blasted a towering home run in his final at-bat that evening. As he was rounding third base, he learned of the news.

“Coach Ayrault stuck his fist out to me and said, ‘That’ll be the your last home run in the Florida State League,’” Heisey recalled. “The next morning, I was on a plane and Lisa was packing up our apartment. It happens fast like that.”

Apparently it does. Heisey finished out the ’08 season with the AA Chattanooga Lookouts hitting .316 with six doubles in just 79 at-bats, numbers good enough to warrant a trip to the Puerto Rican Winter League this fall. Chris and Lisa will move to the U.S. territory tomorrow, an opportunity that could provide major dividends down the road.

“This is a major, major step for Chris,” said Bryan Engle, Messiah head baseball coach. “This (Puerto Rican) winter league is invite-only. You have a lot of triple-A players down there as well as some major leaguers that are on assignment. For him to be invited down there speaks volumes about the level of his play right now.”

And so, the Heisey story is a book still being penned. To sit and talk with Chris about his travels leads to a variety of immersing baseball tales, from the 12 and a half hour bus rides in Billings, all the way to his hitting a double off of current Florida Marlins closer Kevin Gregg in the spring of ’07.

“I was as nervous as could be,” Heisey said of the latter. “I don’t even know how I swung the bat, let alone hit a double.”

But probing deeper into Heisey’s journey, you find a young man with extreme maturity and reverence.

“I’m not good at estimating, but I figure I’ve signed over 15,000 autographs during all of this,” he says. “I just don’t understand why anyone would want my autograph. Because I can hit a ball? It seems to me we should be getting the autographs of teachers, who make a difference to so many people, or doctors who save peoples’ lives.”

The conversation then shifts to life as a professional baseball player.

“To be a Christian in this lifestyle is tough,” Heisey continues. “There are a lot of temptations, not a lot of rules and not a lot of Christians in what I’m doing. But the guys know I’m different. They know I don’t chew or cuss. I don’t go out and get drunk with them. I don’t condemn them, but I try to show them love. It’s a good mission for me. A lot of these guys don’t know Christ, so I try to be a witness in all that I do.”

Heisey said that he and Lisa are going to do all that they can to ensure that they’ll be back in central Pennsylvania for Christmas this year. With Chris losing his father to Lou Gehrig’s disease a year ago last fall and his younger sister Jessica suffering from a rare chromosomal disease, Heisey values family more than anything, saying simply, “The holidays are an important time for us.”

For now, however, the dream continues. Pending on how things go in Puerto Rico, the Heiseys will learn of their next stop, most likely just hours before they are expected to be there.

“As long as Chris is enjoying playing and playing well, I don’t really need to be settled and have a house. I’ve transitioned,” Lisa says.

“We talk about that a lot,” Chris says of his baseball future. “We figure if I continue to show improvement and seem to have a legitimate shot at making the majors, I’ll keep playing. But if we’re two years down the road and I’m still at double-A ball, it will be time to hang it up. You have to be smart enough and humble enough to give up the dream at some point.”

After looking at his quick rise through the Reds farm system and meeting Chris for the first time this Homecoming Weekend, I’m certainly not going to be one to count him out.

Who knows? Next spring, Lisa just may be looking for that house after all.

In Cincinnati.

Blitz Dorsey
06-01-2009, 12:26 AM
If there is still room on the bandwagon, I want on. I can bring the beer and pop.

camisadelgolf
06-01-2009, 04:33 AM
Cory Furman did a great job with that article. I don't know any Reds fan who isn't a Heisey fan, but if you weren't one before, you have to be now.

OnBaseMachine
06-01-2009, 12:05 PM
Wow, what a great article. Heisey sounds like a tremendous person. I'm rooting even harder for him now after reading that article.

jojo
06-01-2009, 02:53 PM
Heisey is now overrated

He would be the next Joe DiMAggio if he played in the Yanks organization.

Dude Rock
06-01-2009, 03:00 PM
Wow, what a great article. Heisey sounds like a tremendous person. I'm rooting even harder for him now after reading that article.

Okay. Sign me up. I already liked the guy. Now I really like the guy.

OnBaseMachine
06-01-2009, 03:28 PM
He's on fire
Reds AA CF Chris Heisey is tearing up the Southern League.
He was named Player of the Week today....hitting safely in all seven games (15-27 .555)
He leads the Southern League in hitting (.378), hits (70), extra base hits (26) slugging (.616) and runs (40).
He's second in OBP (.458). His OPS is 1.074
He has 25 walks and only 14 k's in 185 ab's.
He also has 10 sb's.
Heisey was a 17th round pick of the Reds in 2004 (pick #504 overall)
He's 6'0 195....right handed hitter
He'll be promoted to AAA soon....where Drew Stubbs is playing CF. (.295/.398-1-15, 17 sb's)

http://www.1530homer.com/pages/lancesBlog.html

Rojo
06-01-2009, 09:20 PM
http://www.minorleaguesplits.com has his numbers going back to 2006, vs pitcher, and how he did by position. dandy site.

Thanks for the link. My recollection about Heisey was that he was pretty blah against right-handed pitching, which always makes me question bat speed.

Mario-Rijo
06-02-2009, 12:30 AM
Thanks for the link. My recollection about Heisey was that he was pretty blah against right-handed pitching, which always makes me question bat speed.

Last year he was the most suspect vs. RHP but he did ok, other than that he's done fine.

OnBaseMachine
06-02-2009, 11:52 AM
I was just reading an article on Baseball America about Yonder Alonso's AA debut last night, and in the article Ben Badler says Heisey's prospect status has risen as much as anyone in the minor leagues this season. I'm going to send Badler an email and ask him where he would rank Heisey in the top 100 at this point.

OnBaseMachine
06-02-2009, 12:11 PM
I sent Badler an email and he got back to me within 10 minutes. Awesome.

He said Heisey would probably rank at the back of the top 100 list and went on to say this:


But I have seen Heisey play several times now this year, and he's a legitimate big leaguer. There isn't much physical projection left with him, and he's already 24, but he should be at least a solid big leaguer. He's done as much for his prospect stock as anyone has this season. I have been impressed.

GIDP
06-02-2009, 12:19 PM
With Yonder in AA I expect a lot more praise to come from the Carolina team.

lollipopcurve
06-02-2009, 12:27 PM
Cat's certainly out of the bag now.

Seriously, at some point soon Heisey should be promoted. Just as it's reasonable for management to hold off on promoting a player (i.e., prospect) until he shows can handle a level, it's unreasonable for management to hold off on a promotion when a prospect shows he can dominate a level. Plus, acting in a timely way assures that the player will ascend to the next level with his confidence flying -- a nice asset to give that player as he begins the next step. We'll see how this plays out with Heisey, but I would suggest the clock is now ticking for the Reds to do the right thing.

Scrap Irony
06-02-2009, 01:11 PM
Or they could be gauging interest in a prospect and hopeing he continues to kick AA butt rather than possibly struggling in AAA.

lollipopcurve
06-02-2009, 01:15 PM
Or they could be gauging interest in a prospect and hopeing he continues to kick AA butt rather than possibly struggling in AAA.

I sure hope not. They need to get the right read on who they prefer between Heisey and Stubbs, and I'd be disappointed if they felt Stubbs has already proven himself to be the winner. I REALLY hope the organization is not hampered by front office egos protecting high draft picks at the expense of lower ones -- because I see no other reason to prefer Stubbs at this point.

jojo
06-02-2009, 01:19 PM
I sure hope not. They need to get the right read on who they prefer between Heisey and Stubbs, and I'd be disappointed if they felt Stubbs has already proven himself to be the winner. I REALLY hope the organization is not hampered by front office egos protecting high draft picks at the expense of lower ones -- because I see no other reason to prefer Stubbs at this point.

I really doubt the Reds are conflicted on this issue. My guess is it's Stubbs.

lollipopcurve
06-02-2009, 01:21 PM
I really doubt the Reds are conflicted on this issue. My guess is it's Stubbs.

Why?

medford
06-02-2009, 01:40 PM
Couple of things, what if they view Stubbs as the better major leaguer, and they're right? Is that so far fetched? What if Atlanta decided they were willing to move Escobar to fill the Reds SS need, but wanted a CF back and prefered Heisey over Stubbs? Would it be so bad to move Heisey right now in a deal that fills a need at the ML level now and in the future, even if they're not 100% sold themselves which one will be a better ML CF?

If there's a deal to be made that makes sense right now and CF in return is a requirement, well I guess that's the beauty of having (2) top-100 CF prospects in the high majors? Move one to fill 1 need, hold on to the other to fill your future CF need.

jojo
06-02-2009, 01:54 PM
Why?

Mostly because Stubbs is more projectable and is already smelling the coffee percolating.

dougdirt
06-02-2009, 02:09 PM
Mostly because Stubbs is more projectable and is already smelling the coffee percolating.

On top of that he is the better defender of the two and thats not close to being arguable. If the Reds are 'defense first' and it seems they are taking that stance, then Stubbs is very likely their guy unless he can't match Willy Taveras production at the major league level, and well, I am not sure even the most concerned guys around about Stubbs think he can't do that.

mrpotamus
06-02-2009, 02:11 PM
Regardless of where a player is drafted, it is smart to be weary about a guy like Heisey who was not a highly regarded prospect coming out of college or during his tenure in the low minors. He started to come on last season and has had as good of a start as anyone in baseball this season, but who knows if it will last. Stubbs, on the other hand, has always been highly regarded by talent evaluators and is putting up very respectable numbers in AAA. He is the safer bet at this point. Though that is not to say that Heisey will not be the better baseball player in the long run.

lollipopcurve
06-02-2009, 02:40 PM
On top of that he is the better defender of the two and thats not close to being arguable.

It may be true, but I am not as convinced as others that Stubbs is a true elite CF. There were comments this spring that he shied away from walls, and the Reds have had him playing all 3 positions. A CF has to play with some abandon in order to be elite, and that has been a challenge for Stubbs. I'm certain he has the potential to be a better defender than Heisey, but I question to what extent he has actually realized that potential at this point.

The best move for all concerned now is to put Heisey at AAA so that the organization can get a better read on how these two stack up.

OnBaseMachine
06-02-2009, 02:47 PM
Here's a nice interview with Heisey from Doug's site:

http://firstinning.com/?p=194

jojo
06-02-2009, 02:47 PM
It may be true, but I am not as convinced as others that Stubbs is a true elite CF. There were comments this spring that he shied away from walls, and the Reds have had him playing all 3 positions. A CF has to play with some abandon in order to be elite, and that has been a challenge for Stubbs. I'm certain he has the potential to be a better defender than Heisey, but I question to what extent he has actually realized that potential at this point.

The best move for all concerned now is to put Heisey at AAA so that the organization can get a better read on how these two stack up.

I think a CFer has to play with some abandon in order to endure a shortened career.

Ichiro for instance doesn't dive as a rule and I'm just fine with it.

OnBaseMachine
06-02-2009, 02:53 PM
When I was down in Florida in March for spring training, I had the chance to see Stubbs play center field. A left handed hitter hit a shot toward the right center gap that looked like a for sure double off the bat. Next thing I know, Drew Stubbs is camped under the ball. I was amazed. His range is spectacular. It's amazing that a guy that big can run so fast.

With that said, Chris Heisey is a very good defender too. He's not on Drew Stubbs' level but not too many guys are.

New Fever
06-02-2009, 03:04 PM
From Baseball America"s Ben Badler on Chris Heisey:


While Alonso's debut was enough cause for excitement, 24-year-old center fielder Chris Heisey continued his fantastic season. Heisey went 3-for-5 with his ninth home run of the year and two doubles, giving him 18 on the season. Heisey's batting line now sits at .384/.461/.642 in 50 games with 25 walks and 15 strikeouts. Triple-A center fielder Drew Stubbs might have flashier tools, but Heisey has seen his prospect stock rise as much as anyone in the minor leagues this season.

lollipopcurve
06-02-2009, 03:05 PM
I think a CFer has to play with some abandon in order to endure a shortened career.

Hunter, Griffey, Cameron -- all willing to leave their feet or go up over a wall on the run, all with long careers.

jojo
06-02-2009, 03:25 PM
Hunter, Griffey, Cameron -- all willing to leave their feet or go up over a wall on the run, all with long careers.

Cameron is the only elite defender from that group and he's lucky his head is still attached to the rest of his body.

Jr won't let his 15 yo son dive and he describes diving for balls in terms of it being a premeditated activity.

You don't have to be Ryan Freel around hard surfaces to be an elite defender.

lollipopcurve
06-02-2009, 03:37 PM
Cameron is the only elite defender from that group and he's lucky his head is still attached to the rest of his body.

HUnter has been elite. No question. Griffey was for awhile.


Jr won't let his 15 yo son dive and he describes diving for balls in terms of it being a premeditated activity.

Of course it's premeditated. Not sure of your point here.


You don't have to be Ryan Freel around hard surfaces to be an elite defender.

If you can leave your feet and do it well, it helps. Jim Edmonds is another example. Probably Andruw Jones, too (perhaps not at the wall, but certainly on balls within the grassy OF).

Put it this way -- if Stubbs is a bit tentative out there, I wouldn't see it as a positive.

Mario-Rijo
06-02-2009, 03:53 PM
For those who wonder what he changed here it is in his words.


Q: Doug Gray, (one of the writers at FirstInning.com and the guy at RedsMinorLeagues.com) wanted to know, you’ve always been a patient hitter, this year you have taken it to another level. Where did that come from and is that the reason why you are hitting with more power because you are seeing your pitch, working deeper into the count?

Heisey: Yeah, it’s all kind of a combination. I worked with our (roving) hitting instructor, Ronnie Ortegon and with Ryan Jackson our (Mudcats) hitting coach on just my timing. During spring training Ronnie kept telling me that my timing was late. You are not getting your foot down in time so finally he told me just to go way earlier than I thought I had to. Well it was probably with three or four days left in spring training that I started getting my foot down in time and all of a sudden I was just starting to see the off-speed pitches. My biggest problem with strike-outs for sure was right-handers, sliders away and because that I am seeing the ball better now I am able to lay off that pitch a lot more. The biggest thing is just my timing, getting my foot down in time to see the ball. Obviously when you see the ball you’ve got a better chance, hitting the ball and taking more pitches that are not strikes.

nemesis
06-03-2009, 01:35 AM
So here is my question... I know the Reds are seemingly going to keep Frazier in the OF. Votto would have to switch to LF for us to accomadate Alonso at 1st. Stubbs will be given every shot under the Sun to be our CF of the future. Sooooo.... Where does he (Heisley) play? With his improved power and discipline could his bat translate to LF? With say a modest line of .310 .380 .420 OPSing at .800 in the 2 hole with above avg defense and 25 to 35 steals.

Him and Stubbs at the top of the line up would create havoc for opposing pitchers. The 3 4 and 5 hitters would see plenty of fastballs.

Promote Frazier to AAA and switch him to 3B. I know we have Francisco in AA but there is no way that Francisco, Bruce, Votto and Alonso all are on the field at the same time. Dusty would have an anurism (sp?) trying to figure out how to bat 4 LH power bats in his lineup. Francisco just looks like he needs another 2 years in the minors after this year at least.

13 in hall
06-03-2009, 02:22 AM
Just a question for those of you in the know. Can Heisey play second base? Is he athletic enough. I mean the best shorstop in the org. is Brandon. Gonzo is gone next year. Not to beat a dead horse but to win you need your best bats and this season proves this. Is it even worth a try?
Never seen the kid but sounds to me like a Biggio type?

Mario-Rijo
06-03-2009, 03:23 AM
Just a question for those of you in the know. Can Heisey play second base? Is he athletic enough. I mean the best shorstop in the org. is Brandon. Gonzo is gone next year. Not to beat a dead horse but to win you need your best bats and this season proves this. Is it even worth a try?
Never seen the kid but sounds to me like a Biggio type?

My guess is he is the type of guy who could figure it out if you put him there, but as of right now he has more value as a CF. I would think it would be to the organizations advantage to try him out there for awhile, if they intened on keeping Stubbs but maybe they don't intend to keep both.

RedlegJake
06-03-2009, 09:48 AM
Heisey is now overrated

Agreed. Hot starts like his or even hot half seasons often lead a prospect to be overrated by fans. I like Heisey but some of the superlatives are getting crazy.

lollipopcurve
06-03-2009, 11:15 AM
Agreed. Hot starts like his or even hot half seasons often lead a prospect to be overrated by fans. I like Heisey but some of the superlatives are getting crazy.

In this thread? What superlatives?

Seems to me people are re-examining opinions that had Heisey's ceiling as that of an extra outfielder. Now, maybe he's a regular. But nobody's saying he's a future all-star. How about you? Could be you think he'll be lucky to get a spot on the 40-man, in which case maybe it does all sound superlative....

HokieRed
06-03-2009, 11:36 AM
I would think the question Heisey is now posing is whether he may possibly be a corner outfielder if we are fortunate enough to have a superior defender-competent hitter as CF in Drew Stubbs. I don't much care if Heisey is under or overrated as these are inherently highly subjective, and not very useful, terms dependent on some norm of ratedness (if there is such a word). I hope that by mid-season he's in Louisville so that this question can begin to be a little more clearly answered--along with Todd Frazier, about whom we also need to know: 1. Can he hit enough to be a corner outfielder? and/or 2. Can he play third base well enough to be the longer term owner of that position in Cinti, thus, among other things, making EE expendable?

princeton
06-03-2009, 01:59 PM
I would think the question Heisey is now posing is whether he may possibly be a corner outfielder if we are fortunate enough to have a superior defender-competent hitter as CF in Drew Stubbs.

I think that the question posed by Heisey is one of the following:

why the heck did we sign Tavarez?

or,

how best to drop that contract?

the attrition rate of older prospects is pretty high. I'm happy to have 2-3 guys that (could) fill one hole, and worry not at all about overlap. here's hoping the Reds face many such dilemmas.

Mario-Rijo
06-03-2009, 04:14 PM
Agreed. Hot starts like his or even hot half seasons often lead a prospect to be overrated by fans. I like Heisey but some of the superlatives are getting crazy.

If that's all it was I'd agree but it's clearly not the case here with Heisey. His improvements at the plate have maximized his potential. In other words his production isn't a result of getting into a zone but simply put he has little to no weaknesses that pitchers at his level can exploit. Now what does that mean for his future? Tough to say really, but clearly he has moved himself up a peg or two with this improvement. I think it all depends on if he has had slider bat speed in the past or FB bat speed, if he has the bat speed we could have a really good player here.

I'll tell ya this if he doesn't make it as a player we need to hire him as a coach because I know few guys who have maximized his skills to get the best out of his god given talent like Heisey. Outstanding work ethic and feel for the game this kid has.

Lockdwn11
06-03-2009, 09:47 PM
The only thing you can say about Heisey is... the guy is swagtacular

Mario-Rijo
06-03-2009, 09:49 PM
The only thing you can say about Heisey is... the guy is swagtacular

True Dat! :D