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View Full Version : Phillips a good fit at 4?



xavr1
04-20-2009, 03:22 PM
So Paul Daughtery wrote today about how bad a fit BPhil is at the clean up spot. I know this was discussed back when Dusty announced that he would be batting there, but now that we've had 11 games under our belt, what do you guys think about him there?

My initial thought is to agree with Daugherty. He doesnt instill the kind of fear in hitters you would want out of your 4 hitter. But then I wonder, who else do you put there? Votto is more of a natural 3. Bruce isnt seeing the ball and seems like a better fit at 5 or 6 anyway. Same with EE.

Whats the best option at cleanup?

will5979
04-20-2009, 03:40 PM
This is just me, but I have never liked Phillips batting cleanup. To me he is more of a Barry Larkin #2 hitter type than a 4. Honestly I believe the Reds made a HUGE mistake by not signing a FA bat in the offseason. Burrell, Abreu, Dunn, hell even Sheffield, OR what happened to trading Homer Boring to the Sox for Dye? This front office is/has been for about 15 years being ran by ignoramouses.

Eric_the_Red
04-20-2009, 03:44 PM
This is just me, but I have never liked Phillips batting cleanup. To me he is more of a Barry Larkin #2 hitter type than a 4. Honestly I believe the Reds made a HUGE mistake by not signing a FA bat in the offseason. Burrell, Abreu, Dunn, hell even Sheffield, OR what happened to trading Homer Boring to the Sox for Dye? This front office is/has been for about 15 years being ran by ignoramouses.

Burrell = Dunn, and the Fo has decided that type of player is not a fit for this team. And Abreu is almost as bad as Dunn in the OF, which again doesntt fit the defensive mold the organization is going for.

Sheffield wasn't avilable in the off-season and he decided to go to the Mets.

xavr1
04-20-2009, 04:23 PM
Abreu might be a liability in the field, but last I checked he was hitting around .360 this season. He might be a better option at the 4 if we had him, but he was the 3 hitter for the Yankees (and I think the Phils as well) and doesnt really hit a ton of HRs.

Eric_the_Red
04-20-2009, 04:35 PM
Riddle me this: when is the last time Abreu OPS'd over .850? (2006)
When is the last time Abreu hit over 20 HR? (2005)
When is the last time Abreu hit 30 HR? (2004)

How is this the "power threat" the team needs?

PhillipsHead
04-20-2009, 04:42 PM
He is a perfect fit in the 2 slot. However, we have no other cleanup hitter.

Captain Hook
04-20-2009, 05:00 PM
We can talk about what we should have done all day long but the reality is that we're stuck with what we have for now.Considering that I would rather EE bat 4th with Phillips moving to the 6th spot.This would probably not make a huge difference but thats just my personal preference.Either way we might be able to compete to the point where a little over .500 baseball is possible.But the 4th spot will IMO prevent this team from doing any better.I think its a real problem considering the supposed goals this year(making the playoffs).

Sometimes you need to have the right parts to fix something thats not working.I sure hope that the front office is considering the possibility that this team does just enough to stay in the playoff race up until the trade deadline and what they will do to fix this problem.My hope is that if that time comes some of the guys that are really struggling now have come around making it clear what this offense needs to get over the hump.

thorn
04-20-2009, 05:08 PM
The original queston was who on our current roster is better suited to hit cleanup, my guess is no one.

Jerome
04-20-2009, 05:14 PM
The original queston was who on our current roster is better suited to hit cleanup, my guess is no one.

I'll second that one. It's apparent Phillips isn't the answer--never was, never will be. I can't believe how often he check swings. It's very unsettling to my mind and my digestive system. The least he could do is give a professional AB. He has been walking more, but not enough to warrant a star on his bedtime checklist.

will5979
04-20-2009, 07:19 PM
The original queston was who on our current roster is better suited to hit cleanup, my guess is no one.

Bingo.

BLEEDS
04-20-2009, 08:02 PM
EE should be in the 4 hole, for sure.

It's not that he is the best for the 4 hole, it's that Phillips is also best for the 6 hole.

EE gets walked a lot - one, because he's got a good eye, and 2, because our 7 & 8 hitters are horrendous. He's no risk to get in if the bag is open or there's 2 outs, etc...

NOW, IF you had Phillips there, they are not going to want to give him a free pass. Because of his speed. There, he could steal some bags, and put himself in scoring position. Then a bloop single will get you a run. You're going to need a passed ball or a balk to get EE from 1st to 2nd.
THIS is a Huge difference later in the lineup, as opposed to the 4 hole for Phillips.

Sure, I'd bat him 4th against LHP, he murders them, but he's a liability vs RHP in general, let alone in the 4 hole. His lone 30-30 year, that he'll never repeat again, was more a product of KGJ and AD, and the luckiest rate of "just enough" HR balls - e.g. 340 to a 335 LF line, 357 to a 350 LCF gap, etc... - than any real raw power, especially against RHP. He in no way is the best option to bat 4th on an everyday basis.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

ian_madden
04-21-2009, 12:07 PM
I feel that the clutch hitting of EE makes him the best suited for the cleanup spot. I always thought that BP would be a good 2 hole guy, then I saw his OBP. He is not fit for that spot. His speed does make him a threat, along with his quality power numbers, and his defense. I think that BP can put it all together when some of this weight is taken off his shoulders. Make the move, switch EE and BP.

bgwilly31
04-21-2009, 12:43 PM
This is just me, but I have never liked Phillips batting cleanup. To me he is more of a Barry Larkin #2 hitter type than a 4. Honestly I believe the Reds made a HUGE mistake by not signing a FA bat in the offseason. Burrell, Abreu, Dunn, hell even Sheffield, OR what happened to trading Homer Boring to the Sox for Dye? This front office is/has been for about 15 years being ran by ignoramouses.

Hit the nail on the head. :thumbup:

Krawhitham
04-21-2009, 12:47 PM
He is a perfect fit in the 2 slot. However, we have no other cleanup hitter.

Votto says hello

Yes he is your best hitter and the best hitter normally bats 3rd, but he is also the only one that drives in runs.

Phillips is walking more this season but he is not hitting, let him walk in front of Votto so he can drive him in

PhillipsHead
04-21-2009, 12:50 PM
Votto says hello

Yes he is your best hitter and the best hitter normally bats 3rd, but he is also the only one that drives in runs.

Phillips is walking more this season but he is not hitting, let him walk in front of Votto so he can drive him in

I agree that eventually Votto should be hitting cleanup, but if and until Phillips prove he can hit .280+, then he should've be our 3 hitter. While a Lineup of:

Taveras
Dickerson
Phillips
Votto
EE
Bruce
Ramon

works perfect as far as the right/left/right/left notion, Phillips has to pick it up a lot, because at this point, it's about getting your best hitter more at-bats....and that's why Votto's hitting 3.

GOYA
04-21-2009, 01:34 PM
Phillips is a 2 hole hitter.

But we have bigger problems with the averages of Bruce, EE, Dickerson, Hernandez, Hairston, BP and AGon. When your lineup is full of easy outs it doesn't make much difference which order you bat them.

BLEEDS
04-21-2009, 02:01 PM
He is a perfect fit in the 2 slot. However, we have no other cleanup hitter.


Phillips is a 2 hole hitter.



Can somebody explain to me how a guy with low OBP, terrible OPS vs RHP, a fairly high K rate, and a HUGE propensity to hit into Double Plays would be an ideal #2 hitter?!?!

Let me guess - because he's a speedy infielder?!?!

I don't see it at all.

3/4 versus LHP, 6 or 7 versus RHP.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

xavr1
04-21-2009, 02:05 PM
I agree. Phillips in the 2 hole makes very little sense to me, as well. His most productive days were at the 7 slot, probably because he didnt feel the weight of the lineup on his shoulders every night.

HBP
04-21-2009, 02:59 PM
I agree. Phillips in the 2 hole makes very little sense to me, as well. His most productive days were at the 7 slot, probably because he didnt feel the weight of the lineup on his shoulders every night.

Actually in his best year, 2007, he didn't even have one at bat at #7. He mostly batted #2 and #4 and with OPS's of .794 and .844 respectively.

BLEEDS
04-21-2009, 03:12 PM
Actually in his best year, 2007, he didn't even have one at bat at #7. He mostly batted #2 and #4 and with OPS's of .794 and .844 respectively.

Yes, so for him to be successful, we just have to get Adam Dunn back to bat behind him!!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

GOYA
04-21-2009, 03:21 PM
Can somebody explain to me how a guy with low OBP, terrible OPS vs RHP, a fairly high K rate, and a HUGE propensity to hit into Double Plays would be an ideal #2 hitter?!?!

Phillips began to be the type of hitter you describe when he was put into one of the power slots in the batting order.

BLEEDS
04-21-2009, 03:56 PM
Phillips began to be the type of hitter you describe when he was put into one of the power slots in the batting order.

?
I don't think you followed him very well then. In 2006 he batted 6th/7th, and he stunk, although his OBP in the 7 hole in 2006 was .333, his highest ever, but he still stunk against RHP.

2007 they moved him, where he stunk in the 2hole, but did well in the 4 hole - when he absolutely CRUSHED LHP to the tune of a .984 OPS. In 2008 he regressed, but still did decent v LHP, but remained horrible and even got worse against RHP (.676 OPS).

Again, he's not terrible, but when the best you can hope for is a .740 OPS vs RHP from your cleanup hitter, you aren't doing yourself any favors.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

MJA
04-21-2009, 05:32 PM
I know I may be driving this topic another direction, but I would love to see EE moved in front of Votto. With EE's new found plate discipline he would give Votto more opportunities to drive in more runs.

keeganbrick
04-21-2009, 06:21 PM
Burrell = Dunn, and the Fo has decided that type of player is not a fit for this team. And Abreu is almost as bad as Dunn in the OF, which again doesntt fit the defensive mold the organization is going for.

Sheffield wasn't avilable in the off-season and he decided to go to the Mets.

Besides Burrell being right handed and like 2x cheaper. If all Burrell was asking was 8 million we shoulda been on that.

Eric_the_Red
04-21-2009, 09:03 PM
8 million is 2x cheaper than 10? Burrell isn't a good defender and doesn't make contact enough to fit into the defense/contact/speed theme of the team.

keeganbrick
04-21-2009, 09:35 PM
Dunn made $13 mill last yr and was projected to get around a $15m per yr contract before the terrible year to be a free agent approached. There arent a lot of guys that can provide power/speed/defense anyways and the Reds dont have enough money to pay for that kind of player right now. We need a power RH bat between Votto and Bruce and to get Phillips back to a comfortable spot in the lineup. Burrell would have been a good gap stop for a couple years IMO.

Jack Burton
04-21-2009, 10:37 PM
I'd say BPhil is a 7 or 8 hitter on a good ballclub.

CWRed
04-22-2009, 09:21 AM
EE should be in the 4 hole, for sure.

It's not that he is the best for the 4 hole, it's that Phillips is also best for the 6 hole.

EE gets walked a lot - one, because he's got a good eye, and 2, because our 7 & 8 hitters are horrendous. He's no risk to get in if the bag is open or there's 2 outs, etc...

NOW, IF you had Phillips there, they are not going to want to give him a free pass. Because of his speed. There, he could steal some bags, and put himself in scoring position. Then a bloop single will get you a run. You're going to need a passed ball or a balk to get EE from 1st to 2nd.
THIS is a Huge difference later in the lineup, as opposed to the 4 hole for Phillips.

Sure, I'd bat him 4th against LHP, he murders them, but he's a liability vs RHP in general, let alone in the 4 hole. His lone 30-30 year, that he'll never repeat again, was more a product of KGJ and AD, and the luckiest rate of "just enough" HR balls - e.g. 340 to a 335 LF line, 357 to a 350 LCF gap, etc... - than any real raw power, especially against RHP. He in no way is the best option to bat 4th on an everyday basis.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

You are correct sir.

BigJohn
04-22-2009, 09:53 AM
http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a30fc65de-835a-41fd-9249-7b6c2da5a886&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

BSUFB
04-22-2009, 10:09 AM
Why not just switch Phillips and Votto?

Eric_the_Red
04-22-2009, 10:59 AM
Why not just switch Phillips and Votto?

Because you would then be taking at bats away from our best hitter.

BigJohn
04-22-2009, 12:49 PM
http://www.sportsmogul.com/baseballcd/help/BaseballStrategy.htm

Red in Atl
04-22-2009, 05:43 PM
On this team, EE should bat 4th. Brandon has never been the same since he joined the 30/30 club. He constantly swings for the fences. Drives me nuts watching him bat, and I used to really enjoy it.

Of course, 4-9 drives me crazy watching so far this year, at least when Hanigan isn't playing.

vs R: / vs L:

Willy T / Willy T
Dickerson/ Hairston
Votto / Votto
EE / EE
Bruce / Bruce
Philips / Philips
Hernandez / Hanigan
Gonzo / Gonzo

forfreelin04
04-22-2009, 05:53 PM
On this team, EE should bat 4th. Brandon has never been the same since he joined the 30/30 club. He constantly swings for the fences. Drives me nuts watching him bat, and I used to really enjoy it.

Of course, 4-9 drives me crazy watching so far this year, at least when Hanigan isn't playing.

vs R: / vs L:

Willy T / Willy T
Dickerson/ Hairston
Votto / Votto
EE / EE
Bruce / Bruce
Philips / Philips
Hernandez / Hanigan
Gonzo / Gonzo


Your wish is Dusty's command

Lineup per Ctrent

Taveras, cf



Hairston, lf



Votto, 1b



Encarnacion, 3b



Bruce, rf



Phillips, 2b



Hernandez, c



Gonzalez, ss



Cueto, rhp

xavr1
04-22-2009, 08:28 PM
Even batting 6th, he cant help swinging at that first pitch!

JBChance
04-22-2009, 11:27 PM
I think the change woke him up a bit.

He notched two hits but also flied out DEEP a couple of times with one being a HR if the wind was going out instead of in.

Problem is, Dusty is bound to stick him back in 4th, if he keeps on the right track.

Ghosts of 1990
04-23-2009, 12:16 AM
Just wanted to add to the thread that Phillips has hit something like .190 since last August. I think we are affecting his play by the role we're asking him to do. I like him 6th better or 2nd possibly. Not 4th. I think he's going to start hitting soon now that he's out of the 4 hole.

BLEEDS
04-23-2009, 08:19 AM
Batting 6th looks good on BP. Doesn't feel the pressure to perform in that cleanup role.

Also - as I've noted before - it provides him better opportunities to run. You don't want him trying to run when Bruce and EE are behind him, in case he runs himself out of "1st base scoring position" with those guys and their HR potential.

When there is C and SS du jour up, you don't mind him being aggressive and trying to get to 2nd where a bloop single from those 7/8 hitters will get him home.

Let's hope both EE and BP thrive in their new positions in the lineup so they stay there.

Of course it could have something more to do with BP's numbers lifetime vs. Lilly coming into the game, OR the fact that Dusty was just doing the opposite of what is BP's strength (hitting lefties, in general). Could be just dumb luck on the Toothpick's part!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

xavr1
04-23-2009, 08:37 AM
Be very curious to see what Dusty does with him today...